The Bulwark Podcast - Will Hurd: Don't Kiss Your Opponent's Butt

Episode Date: August 9, 2023

The former Texas congressman says he's running for president because America deserves a sane conservative party—while Trump is running to stay out of prison. And licking Trump's boots is no way to beat him. Hurd joins Charlie Sykes today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. It is August 9th, 2023, and we have a lot of catching up to do. Donald Trump has made it clear that he is not going to stop attacking the judge, the prosecutors, and the entire criminal justice system. We are at an extraordinary moment in American political history and the judicial system. We're also seeing a change in tone in the Republican field several weeks before the first Republican debate in Milwaukee, which, by the way, will not include Donald Trump. But let's start with what we're hearing from other Republicans. I suppose it is not new that Chris Christie is bringing a hammer to Donald Trump, but his critique does, at least to me, feels like it is sharpening. Here's Chris Christie talking about Donald Trump and his BFF,

Vladimir Putin. Donald Trump said that the person perpetrating these atrocities, torture, murder, and the kidnap of innocent children is brilliant and an excellent leader. That's the kind of thing that Donald Trump will bring back to the presidency is that type of attitude towards somebody like Vladimir Putin. I think the American people need to really wonder whether Vladimir Putin is the role model we want for leadership around the world.

And here's Chris Christie with Bob Costa on CBS talking about whether or not Donald Trump is a danger to democracy. Are you saying you believe Trump wants to be a dictator? I don't think he'd have any objection to it if we were willing to give it to him. That's serious stuff. Do you come to any different conclusion than that? Do you think he's a danger to democracy? I don't think he'd have any objection to it if we were willing to give it to him. That's serious stuff. Do you come to any different conclusion than that?

Do you think he's a danger to democracy? I don't think he cares. And the proof of that are his own words when he said it's OK to suspend the laws and suspend the Constitution. Preserve, protect and defend the Constitution is what the president takes an oath to do. And he said it's okay to suspend it. These are his own words. Now, a little bit more interesting in some respects is the new tone from Mike Pence as of check the date because these things tend to come and go. Here's Mike Pence on Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election on January 6th. He has been critical in the past, but he is ramping up his criticism.

And once again, his comments do seem somewhat more pointed. But look, I stand by the facts as they occurred. I mean, it ebbed and flowed between different legal theories. But at the end of the day, I know we did our duty. I know we kept our oath. But I truly do believe that, you know, no one who ever puts himself over the Constitution should ever be president of the United States. I mean, our Constitution is more important than any one man and our country is more important than any one man's career. Meanwhile, I just want to call your attention to a debate that we're having here at

the Bulwark. I think it's an interesting debate, and I think it is a good faith debate. Yesterday in his newsletter, Jonathan Last made what he called the Keynesian case for considering pardoning Donald Trump for his various crimes. I'm not going to try to summarize it here. In today's Morning Shots, I provide the counterpoint. You know, if JBL is sort of on the, you know, maybe, possibly, we ought to think about pardoning Donald Trump, I'm kind of still in the no effing way camp about pardoning Donald Trump. So I think it will make an interesting read. The Bulwark, of course, contains multitudes. You should read Jonathan's piece in yesterday's triad and my answer in today's

Morning Shots. This is why you hang out with folks like us from the bulwark. So on this podcast, we have talked to some of the Republican critics of Donald Trump. We've been joined by Chris Christie. We spoke with former Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson. And today we are joined by Will Hurd, former congressman from Texas, who is a Republican presidential candidate. Thanks for joining me again, Will. I appreciate it very, very much. Hey, Charlie, I always appreciate the time and appreciate your perspectives. So let's talk about this moment we are in right now, this extraordinary moment where the GOP frontrunner, the former president of the United States, is facing felony charges,

more than 70 felony charges, including the indictment in Washington, D.C., and he's lashing out at the judges, he's lashing out at the prosecutors. I want to get your take on all of this, because Republican voters seem to be looking at this and going, we're okay with this. His poll numbers go up the more he is indicted. Give me your sense of where we're at right now and the way Donald Trump is behaving. Well, the way Donald Trump is behaving is unacceptable, in my opinion. I think Donald Trump is a national security risk, and Donald Trump is running for president in order to stay out of prison. And the reality is that most of the rest of the field is afraid to criticize him. And that's not a way to win a

campaign. And look, I recognize two things. I recognize he's the front runner right now. And a guy like me, I'm a dark horse candidate. But here's the other thing that I know. There are still more people that dislike Donald Trump than like Donald Trump. We're going to have to activate more people to get involved in the primary. Only 23% of Americans vote in primaries. That other 77% are usually the ones that don't want to see Joe Biden or Donald Trump on the ballot. And the thing that I have found in some of these early states so far, Iowa, New Hampshire, yes, there's people that like the idea of Donald Trump, that he was tough, but people are starting to realize that he has a lot of baggage. And I do think that the closer we

get to the election, these races always tighten, but it's going to require many of us to step up and tell people that it's okay to not accept this, to remind people that what the Republican Party is about. I actually believe that America deserves a sane conservative party, and we're going to have to fight for it. Well, then how do you explain the fact that he is as far headed in the Republican Party primary as he is right now? If I could explain, you know, the rationale, we would be in a different position. I would say that he probably has a good 27 to 32 percent in the primary. When you look at the number of voters that like Donald Trump, that voted for Donald Trump twice, but also are starting to realize he has some baggage, a lot of them thought they were going to go to Ron DeSantis. And with Ron DeSantis fumbling, a lot of people are looking around and be like,

what are our other options? What are the other options? You're at zero in the polls right now. Who can make a run at Donald Trump? Well, I've had two national polls where it was at 1%. I've had a statewide poll at 1%. I just have to have one more poll to hit the polling requirements before the debate in 11, 12 days. I was in New Hampshire last weekend and I was block walking and I talked to a voter that asked me, is Donald Trump running for reelection? And for those of us that consume media, news, we think everybody knows what's going on. It's still the summer. I think what you need to start seeing is folks coalescing around one candidate by winner.

I think Governor Sununu from New Hampshire is the one that kind of articulated that. And so it's the ability to get a message out. And this isn't complicated. It's just hard work. And we have to engage in places that Republicans haven't been before. And when you look at independence, when you look at a place like New Hampshire, where Joe Biden actually won't be on the ballot, that there are 40% of the states are unaffiliated. And those are folks that want someone who believes in personal responsibility, who believes in service, who believes in thinking about the future and solving problems for the

future, not litigating problems of the past. That's where those opportunities are. And the thing that I've learned the last couple of years working with startup companies, the successful startups are the ones that understand the product market fit. And by understanding a product market fit, you need to know who your customers are and who your customers aren't, and being able to talk to those people that aren't consuming social media, that don't, you know, look at Fox News. But when do people start paying attention? If people are not paying attention now, will they start paying attention after the debate? Will they start paying attention when Donald Trump is in one of his many trials of the century? Will they start

to pay attention after the nomination is all done? I mean, there is that question about whether or not there'll be that, oh, crap, what have we done moment? But it'll be too late for Republicans. Are you worried about that? Charlie, I think you're right. And the goal is to start getting people to start paying attention. The first election is January 13th. Early voting starts, and I believe it's going to start later December. That's when things have to peak. That's Iowa, and then you have New Hampshire. So yeah, people will start paying a little bit more attention after the debates. Most people right now are wrapping up summer and trying to get ready for the new school year. And usually,

after the new year is when people start thinking about this weeks and months before elections. But this is about building and making sure that you know who those people are that are willing to vote against Donald Trump or for something else. And knowing what issues they care about and being able to have the resources to engage them. So you have no illusions about where the Republican Party is right now, at least the hardcore of the Republican Party. I see that your pinned tweet is the story of you getting booed late last month at the Republican annual Lincoln Day dinner in Des Moines for telling activists that Trump is not running to make America great again. He's running to stay out of prison. And you tried to quiet the response saying, you know, I know, I know the truth is hard. And you had to say, I know five times, but the crowd doesn't want that

truth. I mean, are we at the point where Republicans can't handle the truth about Donald Trump, no matter how many times you say it? I mean, they're hearing this from Chris Christie. They're hearing this from Mike Pence. They're hearing this from Mike Pence. You're hearing it from Asa Hutchinson. You're hearing it from people like Bill Barr, Will Hurd. And yet when they hear it, well, you know, the response, you got it on stage in Des Moines. How do you break through that? So here's the thing that was missed in that story in Des Moines, right? Look, I know exactly what was going to happen. And part of what needs to be done is you can't be afraid to show up and stand up for what you believe in, right? But also, I wasn't talking to the people that were going to boo me.

I was talking to everybody else in that room that believes in something better than themselves. And yes, the boos is what everybody focused on, but there were some people clapping as well too. And the largest group of people were folks that were sitting there with their hands folded over their lap, just sitting there. And those are the people that recognize and understand some of the problem. And I think you're having a mix of people. In 2016, people didn't want to say they supported Donald Trump because they were slightly embarrassed. And now people are saying they're not against Donald Trump because they don't want to get yelled at. And that doesn't mean we throw up our hands. It means we got to

fight even harder. And we also need to be talking about things that people care about. The number one issue in almost every election is jobs and the economy. And when you're not talking about the ability of people to put food on their table or roof over their head or taking care of the people that they love, they're going to tune out. 65% of Americans think that a robot is going to take their job. This is one of the reasons why I talk a lot about artificial intelligence. One of the top questions I get out when I'm out and about is what do we do with Ukraine? And how is that going to impact America going forward? How does that impact our national budget? And oftentimes when we get caught up in, you know,

is Donald Trump a national security threat? Yes. Is Donald Trump a liar? Yes. Is Donald Trump running for president, say, out of prison? Yes. Are these court cases going to have an impact? Of course it will, but probably not before the election. But I also believe that what independent, what conservative Democrat voted for Joe Biden in 2020 is now in 2024 going to vote for Donald Trump if Donald Trump is a Republican nominee. That person doesn't exist. And so I think this is one of these, if Republicans want four more years of Joe Biden, then put up Donald Trump. Let's talk about, you know, things that have happened over the last couple of weeks here. You pointed out that Ron DeSantis has been floundering a little bit and, you know,

trying to retool his campaign. It feels like he's doing it every day. I mean, the usual way of rebooting your campaign is to do it all at once. He seems to be spreading it out, most of the other candidates seem to be edging toward acknowledging that, yes, Joe Biden won. Donald Trump lost the 2020 election. Will, I don't think you've been ambiguous about this at all, but your thoughts on all this. What took so long? And we're all like going, well, this is a great moment for the Republican Party to acknowledge that, yes, the sun did go up. They have now embraced gravity. But look, Charlie, like, okay, I'm not a political scientist. I have won some elections, right? You have a better sense of these things. But I've never seen anybody win an election by kissing the butt of their opponent or licking his boots. Maybe everybody thought that Donald Trump was going to bow out when the cases came forward.

Maybe they thought he was going to have a heart attack. I don't know. But the reality is, is look, it's good that everybody's starting to speak up. It's good that Vice President Pence is speaking up. And hopefully on the debate, we're going to see more people create that contrast, especially if Donald Trump is afraid to show up and debate. And so I think these are all positive movements. And I think part of that is because there's folks like me and Governor Hutchinson and Governor Christie that are speaking the truth and

realizing that there's an upside to that. I wish more people would recognize that. And look, Charlie, one of the best days, and I haven't hit the 40,000 yet. We're on track to be able to do that. If some of your listeners want to see a brother like me on the debate stage, heardforamerica.com, give me $1 to help me say these things to Donald Trump's face. But the Iowa thing, we saw a definite boost, right? There was an upside to that, to speaking the truth. And I think some of the other candidates are slowly starting to see that. Some of the other candidates are realizing that perhaps it is not the

most effective strategy to kiss Donald Trump's ass if you want to beat Donald Trump. This is now occurring to them. The high price consultants are sitting around the room and saying, perhaps it's not the most effective way to beat Donald Trump is to constantly be licking his boots and kissing his ass. I mean, is that what's going on right now? I hope. I don't know why it's taken so long like you. Most campaigns always run the same campaign from the last time. You know, you're not looking forward. You're doing the same things that has won. We don't have to go back to 2016 to see all the people that were completely against Donald Trump for conservative reasons now are his biggest partisans because they follow the lead. But what we need, and this is why all of this is

a problem, we are faced with a number of generational defining challenges. And that requires some real competition of ideas. It requires what I believe conservative leadership to make sure this country continues to do for the next 247 years what it's done for the last 247 years, and that's uplift humanity. And so everything from dealing with the Chinese Communist Party trying to surpass us as a global superpower. The fact that Israel is playing footsies with the Chinese to help broker a conversation with Saudi Arabia should concern us. How many people have brought up or talked about the fact that the Chinese

government is increasing its footprint on Cuba? Nobody is talking about how the Chinese has hypersonic weapons that placed in Havana could get to Miami in under four minutes and Washington, D.C. in under 14 minutes. Nobody is talking about this upcoming BRICS summit, about how all these countries are going to talk about doing currency exchange in non-dollar denominated accounts. These are all things that are going to impact every American, and we should be concerned. And if Donald Trump is the nominee next year, no one's going to be talking about any of this. Charlie, I don't disagree with you. That's why I'm running for office to try to beat him and stepping up because we have real issues that need to be addressed.

Let me just step back for just a moment. You were on Face the Nation recently, and you explained why you're still a Republican. I think a lot of our listeners are still looking around and going, okay, I'm looking at the party of Carrie Lake and Marjorie Taylor Greene. I'm seeing what Kevin McCarthy's agenda is. This is a party that appears to be a wholly owned subsidiary of MAGA World. Their avatar is Donald Trump. Why are you still a Republican? What does it actually mean right now to be a Republican in theory versus reality? America deserves a sane conservative party. I believe that whole week. You got to start with what is the Republican party? Is that the most popular senior, most known official that, you know, you called it the avatar. Do you talk about the avatar? Is it a collection of all the national elected officials or is it something bigger than that? The way I define the Republican Party and think about the Republican Party are people that are willing to vote for a Republican. You know, independents and conservative Democrats that are sick and tired of the direction that the Democratic Party is going. I do not believe

that the government should be telling businesses what they can or cannot do. Unfortunately, we have many governors that think that that is the case. I believe that we should have a strong foreign policy because the United States of America built an international order that has benefited the United States. And when we don't defend that international order, it hurts the United States. I believe in freedom of opportunity. These are all the things that I believe in. And I'll be damned if I let somebody else say, hey, I can't believe those things. Yes, at this point in time, there are some nuts in the party and they get more attention and

focus and are higher polling. But I refuse to throw up my hands and give up. And I get and I understand why people are frustrated. But what we need is to dig in and fight and retain the GOP in order to make sure that America continues to exist. This experiment called America continues to exist. Well, you know, I've had this conversation over the years with Michael Steele, who's the former chairman of the Republican National Committee, who for a very long time made the case, look, this is my house. I'm not leaving my house. I'm going to stay. We're going to expel the people that have invaded it. At a certain point, though, if Donald Trump is renominated, if this party continues to be dominated by MAGA folks, if the Kerry Lakes of the world and Marjorie Taylor Greene's continue to be empowered, will you reevaluate your identity? It's one thing to have a certain set of conservative values and wanting things like strong foreign policy, freedom, and personal responsibility.

I am down with all of those things. But it doesn't come a moment where you say, okay, these values are no longer represented by this team. And this team has taken such an appalling turn that I just don't want to wear that jersey anymore. So my focus, and you know I've been clear, you know, I'm one of the few people since 2015 that have said Donald Trump was a problem and a national security threat, and I've done nothing to help him get elected to be president. And I've been clear that my issue with any kind of RNC loyalty oath is not with supporting a Republican nominee.

It's I won't support Donald Trump. Who would you vote for if he's the nominee? You know, I'm not going to get into thinking about, you know, plan B, C, D, and E. is to build a movement and to grind it out and talk to those folks that are sick and tired of the direction where the Republican Party is, is willing to dig their feet in and fight and reclaim the party and build that. And so one of my problems, if I'm being frank, is when I got out of college and joined the CIA and was overseas in some pretty crummy places and dangerous places, when we got tough orders to say, hey, we know this organization is trying to blow up people in America, go stop it. Our answer was never, oh, hey, boss, we don't have

enough time. We don't have enough money. We don't have enough resources. The answer was to go figure it out and get it done. When people were trying to bring dirty bombs into the country, we don't have enough resources. The answer was to go figure it out and get it done. When people were trying to bring dirty bombs into the country, you know, we didn't have the opportunity to say, you know, we're not going to do that thing because it's too hard. The answer was yes, and figure out how to do it. And so that's the ethos in which, you know, I was born as an adult, and that's what I believe now. And so anything worth it is worth fighting for. It's hard. And one of the things is it's meaningful too. The best piece of advice I've ever gotten was from one of my buddy's father. And he always said, do something meaningful and hard. So yeah, it's hard, Charlie. I know that things seem stacked against us and the polling seems overwhelming, but I'm

sorry, I'm not going to accept that this is a fait accompli. I'm not going to accept that things can't be changed. And I'm trying to go out there and work not only to earn people's votes, but also to speak the truth. I'm pushing you on this because you had a very interesting interview with NPR recently where you actually did talk about third party candidates like no labels and no labels is out there, whether they're going to run a candidate. We don't know. They claim that they believe that a third party, you know, none of the above candidate could actually win the election.

I personally am skeptical to the point of thinking that's delusional, but you had an interesting point. You actually do seem to think that you thinking that's delusional, but you had an interesting point. You actually do seem to think that, you think from a logistical standpoint, could a third-party candidate win in 2024? So first off, I thought if you were asking me if I was going to be, no, I'm not. So that's first and foremost. Yeah, you're closing the door on that. From the logistics, could a third party in the United States do what Macron did in France or Lopez Obrador did in Mexico? Could that path exist? Yes. I think what's difficult is, and again, I haven't looked at the details and the numbers, but if you do not get 270 of the electoral college votes, then this is going to go to the House of Representatives and the third party has no members of Congress, right? So I think that is troubling.

And again, I can make an argument that it could help Joe Biden or it could hurt Joe Biden. It could help Donald Trump. It could hurt Donald Trump if those two people are the nominees. This is a very, very good point. I mean, this is kind of the ultimate reality check that let's assume for the sake of argument, which I don't really assume, but, you know, since we're doing a thought experiment, imagine that a third party candidate wins one or two states,

deprives either of the two major candidates of 270 electoral votes. What happens? It goes to the House of Representatives where there is absolutely zero, no-label members of the House of Representatives. How do people think that that is going to play out? I mean, I just think that you can't get past that one point here, right? I would agree with that. And then let's take this even further. So does a third party candidate lead to better outcomes? Why are Americans frustrated with all of our institutions? Our institutions have failing grades and the numbers have just been decreasing year over year. Why are Americans frustrated with the government? They're frustrated with the government because they don't see good outcomes, right? They see silly debates on budgets and always getting to a fiscal cliff. Hell, it takes months to get your

passport renewed, right? If you're a veteran, it shouldn't take months to get access to a VA appointment to see your doctor. And people aren't solving challenges. And so that's why people get frustrated. So does a third party improve those outcomes? And I could make a case that a third party would lead to potentially more coalition politics, similar to what we see in a place like Israel. And I don't know if that leads to better outcomes. For me right now, the best thing to do is to try to have this competition of ideas within the Republican Party, to have two strong parties that fight it out in November about what vision for the country is the best and have those debates.

That is my take. That's what I'm working towards. And that is hard enough to try to accomplish. You said recently on Face the Nation that you think that Republicans want somebody and the voters, the voters want somebody who's not a jerk, who's not a racist, who's not a misogynist, who's who is not someone who is a homophobe. So let's leave Donald Trump out of this for a moment, because there are some substantive issues that we could debate within the Republican Party and that will determine the future of the Republican Party, including Ukraine. So let's talk about this. I think it's very, very clear who Donald Trump sides with, but there seems to be a significant division

in the field among the other candidates about whether or not it is in America's interest to continue to support, aggressively support Ukraine. So where do you land on this? I'm firmly in the, we should be supporting Ukraine to help them win the war. You know, most of my adult life, 23 years has been spent connected in some form or fashion to the national security, protecting the national security of the United States. I was in the CIA for 10 years, stopping terrorists and nuclear weapons proliferators, preventing Russians and the Chinese from stealing our secrets.

I was on HIPSY, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, when I was in Congress. Last couple of years, I've been working with a number of technology companies that have a national security application and been on the board of In-Q-Tel, which is looking at getting cutting edge technology into the intelligence services. Here's why Ukraine matters. And I said it earlier, we've built a international order that benefits us. So if we don't help Ukraine, we are spending 5% of the DOD budget to completely dismantle the Russian military. And we are not having to send any of our sons and daughters or spouses to go over and do that. I think that's a pretty good deal. And the Ukrainians are fighting basically with their hands tied behind their back. The United States of America would never fight without trying to have air superiority.

And nobody wants this to become a forever war. So first off, what is the preconditions for victory? That is kicking the Russians out of all of Ukraine. This is where Joe Biden gets it wrong. Joe Biden and Anthony Blinken have said, push the lines back to February 22, which means Russia still has Crimea and part of the Donbass region. I'm of the opinion, you've got to kick the Russians out of all of Ukraine. And we should be helping with material and equipment and helping our NATO allies provide the Ukrainians with everything they need to establish a no-fly zone and even have aggressive action inside Russia as well. The

quicker we help the Ukrainians win this battle, the better off we're going to be. Now, if Ukraine loses, what happens? The rest of Eastern Europe, all the former members of the USSR that are now in NATO, start going back to the orbit of Russia. Western Europe realizes you can't count on America, and they start leaning more towards China. Why should all this care? Because the Chinese government recognizes that the United States can do what we can do because we have allies. And when we break those ties with our allies, they're going to be in a position to surpass us as a global superpower. Why does that matter? Because it's going to impact our ability of the dollar and how much our dollar can buy. It's going to impact how long our 401ks and our

retirement accounts last. It's going to determine what language movies, blockbuster movies are in when we go and see it. And that is why Ukraine matters. And I'll end with this, Charlie, being connected and being involved in national security for over two decades, I've learned something very simple. Your friends should love you and your enemies should fear you. But that also requires you to understand who are your friends and who are your enemies. Vladimir Putin is a war criminal. And it is shocking to me the number of people in the Republican Party that support him and think he's okay. He is a war criminal and he is not our friend. He is our enemy.

Let's talk about the abortion issue as well. I think it's safe to say that the Republican Party remains an anti-abortion, pro-life party, but there are significant differences in strategy, and whether you go for a six-week ban, a 15-week ban, whether the president should sign a national ban or leave it up to the states. And then you had the politics of it. The polls would suggest that the country is moving strongly in a pro-choice direction, and you had more evidence of the electoral impact of that in Ohio last night. And I guess I'm asking you a little punditry. I mean, Ohio Republicans tried to actually change the rules for amending the state constitution to make it harder for abortion rights activists to pass a constitutional amendment, and they got beaten. They didn't get beaten. They got

beaten badly. This is a state the Republicans have been winning in, and the Republican effort went down, I think, something like 57-43. It was a landslide. So this is a real political problem for Republicans. Where do you come down on what Republicans ought to be doing on the abortion issue next year? I think Iowa is a perfect example of how this issue is going to continue to be an issue, and it's going to be an issue in 2024. And it's also an issue of how people were predicting that this was going to pass by a slim margin. So once again, it's the inability of what I call the professional political class to determine and understand what outcomes are. And part of this is a lack of being in touch with the electorate. So where am I?

If Congress put a 15-week ban on my desk and I was president, I would sign that. And right now, with states being in control of this, if there are states that restrict the ability to have an abortion, they also need to be the states that have the best infant mortality rates, that have the best maternal health rates. What's shocking that we don't talk enough about when it comes to this issue, the number of women that die during childbirth is outrageous. And for Black women, it's almost as bad, if not worse, than some developing countries. That is unacceptable. And I think that's an issue that Republicans can be talking about, depending on what the issue is in their state.

Okay, so you would sign very tangibly a national ban, but it sounds more aspirational to do something about women's health. You're not tying the two things together. You're not making that a requirement. Is there a specific proposal or piece of legislation that you support that would, in fact, improve the safety net for women and for children? I don't have some specific piece of legislation on what that would do, but I just think about, you know, I'm recently married. I've been married for seven months. You know, the idea that if my wife is pregnant, when she's pregnant, that, you know, the access to the best care, that's something that we have to be concerned with is kind of shocking to me in the United States in 2023. And so I think

we can address and deal with all these issues at the same time. And protecting our moms, you know, should be something that there's no debate on. Republicans in the pro-life movement have had 50 years to do something about that and haven't done it. Why should voters think, you know, especially when there's clearly, you know, ramming speed for the restrictive punitive pieces of legislation, which are quite tangible and quite real and quite definitive. Why should they take Republicans seriously when they'd say, hey, we've never done this before, but really now is a good time to have a talk about women dying in trial birth? I'm asking people to take me seriously. I also recognize that some of the things when I talk about this is my vision

of where the Republican Party should be, not necessarily where the Republican Party is today. I'm making the case to voters for my vision of where the country should be. And so that's the argument that I'm making. Whether other Republicans can come and make that argument, I would suggest that they do and look at the legislation that makes sense and see what their states are doing to be able to do that. I think that is a issue at a time when this particular topic is going to stay in the news and going to stay on voters' minds. Looking at the calendar, obviously, you're coming up on a very, very crucial moment, the Republican debate here in Milwaukee in just a couple of weeks. As you mentioned earlier, you haven't yet qualified to be on the stage. So here's the awkward question, Will. If you do not

qualify to be on the stage, are you going to stay in this race or will you begin the process of coalescing around other candidates? Have you thought this through yet? Thanks for the question. I feel really good. And I think your sophisticated, amazing listeners are going to help Will Hurd have that voice on the stage by going to heardforamerica.com and at least donating $1 to help me be on that stage. I feel confident when we're looking at some of the polling around the country that we're going to do that. And so to me, the way I operate, the mission in front of me is to spend the next 12 days, August 21th is the deadline, to hitting those numbers. We're close. Our projections based on our trends make me feel good that we're going to hit that number before the deadline. And so my focus is on preparing for

the debate and making sure that I'm ready to articulate a vision for the future and also not be afraid of Donald Trump. Will Hurd, thank you so much for joining me again on the Bulwark Podcast. Will Hurd is a former congressman from Texas who is a candidate for the Republican nomination for president. And I think this is your second appearance on the podcast. So good to have you back, Will. Thanks for having me and thanks for your time. And thank you all for listening to today's Bulwark Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. We will be back tomorrow and we will do this all over again with a new episode of The Trump Trials with Ben Wittes. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper and engineered and

edited by Jason Brown.