The Bulwark Podcast - Wright Thompson and Jesse Lehrich: Hopium and Hate

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

Republicans are reeling, the vibes are shifting, and the wave is building. Jesse serves up a particularly optimistic view of the Democrats' chances in the midterms, with even stretch districts now in play. And ahead of Saturday's Ole Miss-LSU game, Wright shares how Mississippians are responding to the gutting of the Voting Rights Act and says that conservative farmers in the state are turning on MAGA. Plus, the love of a father and Ole Miss football, some Magnolia Bowl lore, why 1956 is the linchpin year in college sports history, and predicting the hate ratio on Saturday in Oxford. Wright Thompson and Jesse Lehrich join Tim Miller.show notes: Wright's books, including "The Barn" and "The Cost of These Dreams" Wright's ESPN piece on Friday will post here Jesse's "Nobody Knows Anything" podcast "Nobody's Listening," Jesse's newsletter Campaign site for Eliott Rodriguez, Maria Elvira Salazar's opponent Erick Erickson piece Tim mentioned Bulwark LIVE: Benefit for Springfield The Bulwark Store Try ZipRecruiter to post your job FOR FREE at http://ziprecruiter.com/BULWARK4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

Hi friends and fellow students. Americans living abroad can legally vote in the U.S. election. Register or get tailored support at votefromabroad.org. Look, state deadlines are super close, so don't waste another second. Go to vote fromabroad.org now and click request my ballot and ask to receive it by email. All you got to do is fill it out and send it back in. Don't miss this chance to shape the future. Don't delay. Vote fromabroad.org. Hello, welcome to the bulwark Daily. I'm your host to Miller. we have a massive double header for you today.

In segment two, it's LSU Ole Miss. Hate Week, Go Tigers. And I brought in the best sports writer of my generation, the best cultural commentator on the intersection of sports and politics and history, particularly in the South. It's right, Thompson. Couldn't be more excited to have him back on the show. He is in segment two.

He'll be coming out of us live from the Delta Lounge. But we're still going to make it sound pretty in your ears. All right. So do stick around for Wright. There's some really touching stuff at the end. But first, we've got to do politics. News. He was a Democratic strategist. Now, he's a streamer. He's a spokesperson for Hillary's 2016 campaign. That one didn't go well, as I recall. His show is called Nobody Knows Anything.

He writes a newsletter called Nobody's Listening. That's not true. I'm listening. It's Jesse Larry. What's up, man? Thanks so much, Tim. I appreciate your listening. You and my mom. What is your age? What is your birth year? I was born in 1989. This counts. Yeah, I was trying to go a little younger than that for my young, my series of young Politico's, but it counts. Adam Chentelson was last week. I think he's older than me.

Basically, we're just trying to get younger than Axelrod and Carvel. No shade. I can do that. I can do that. We're grandfathering anybody in that was born, you know, after the Gerald Ford presidency. There we go. We're going to do midterms of 2028 stuff. And so I just did the biggest picture.

Like, where are you at on the midterm state of play? Are you bedwetting? Are you hopium huffing? Like, where are you at? I'm definitely hopium huffing. I'm still relatively low on, you know, the Democratic Party writ large. I think the long-term prospects could use some work. You're saying a 2022 reducts kind of, where the Democrats do very well but didn't kind of fix

our underlying brand issues. Exactly. We do the thing where we win a bunch of races. we had no business winning, and then everyone's like, oh, I guess we fixed everything, and then we lose to a fascist, and, you know, bulwark blows up again, you know, everyone wins. Okay, well, no, that's not what we want, just to be clear. I would love, I mean, honestly, had Kamlo win for one, for example, the only person that would suffer would be you, because I wouldn't have had you on the podcast.

We would have just done right, Thompson. It would have been a boring day. We would have talked only about LSU Ole Miss, because nothing would be happening. And now it would be great for me, by the way. I would trade that, totally. It sounds like a much better life. I mean, Wright Thompson's a far more interesting person than I am. You're doing great. Okay. I want to go through the races, but first, I think we have a sense for how things are going based on how the vice president framed up his pitch to the electorate yesterday. Let's watch a little bit of that. There's a lot of good that's been done, but there's a lot of work left to do. Don't give power to the people who cause the problems that we're fixing. Give us another chance or give us another couple of years to continue to continue to.

to work on the amazing things that we've been doing for the past two years. Give us another chance. Give us another swing. If you were a spokesperson, how would you, what would you tell your principal about that? I mean, it's about as good as you can do when you've overseen the greatest gas price surge, a pointless war. You have negative charisma. Nobody's happy with any of the things you're doing.

Give us another chance. We'll do better. I mean, I've heard worse pitches. Not that many of them, and I've been on some pretty bad campaigns. But yeah, man, I don't know. When you've got the diesel price up above seven bucks, I was talking to somebody last night, that's kind of transitioned us into the map.

I was talking to somebody from Alaska. They're just kind of giving me a briefing on that race because I never did a campaign in Alaska. I don't know what the fuck's going on up there. It's one of the states I've never been to. So I was like trying to just, you know, make sure I wasn't, you know, because I've been kind of fangirling,

Mary Peltollas campaign. But sometimes I worry about that. It's like if you're appealing to me too much, is that like a bad sign, right, for like resonating with Alaska voters? And so I was asking about this. It's like, dude, is it the home heating like costs up here? Is it the cost for this winter?

You know, like, I was like, it's going to cost like 10 grand for me to heat my house this winter with the increased prices. And I just, I do think there's like really tangible issues they're dealing with in a lot of these places. Totally. And like, I mean, we saw it for, you know, Joe Biden trying to run for re-election and telling everyone they're doing fine economically. You know, Trump has been masterfully successful at diluting people and, you know, selling him,

selling himself, you know, on personality and charisma. But there's one thing that you can't really spin people on, and that's whether or not they can afford to pay their fucking bills, you know what I mean? Like, just browbeating people into saying that the economy is great when they're paying $10,000 to heat their home, you know, kind of a tough. That's a tough sell. All right. So let's do the map. Let's look at the Senate map. I mean, where are you at right now? Gunned ahead. Nobody knows anything. Your live stream, podcast, YouTube show, whatever we're going to call it with Rob Flaherty, friend of the show,

is literally called nobody knows anything. So it's like there's no cost to you being totally wrong. So just don't, don't hedge. I'm not hedging. Today, right now, where are you at on the Senate map? I think that Democrats will win almost all of these contested races. I mean, these things tend to tip, you know, all in one direction in these wave years. I was working counter to you at American Bridge while you were doing America Rising back in 2014. Oh, yeah. And we went from being like, Michelle Dunn is going to win.

And Allison Lundgren Grimes is going to take Mitch McConnell seat. Oh, my God. What a name for the past. Allison Lundgren Grimes, Kentucky Senate nominee in 2014. And then like all of September and October, it was just like ISIS illegal. are climbing under the border wall and infecting you with Ebola. And like every Democrat lost by, you know, and we were like praying that Mark Warner could hang on.

So I really think like, I think Iowa will be tough, I think. But I think like Alaska, I feel surprisingly good about Texas. I think Sherrod Brown is in great position in Ohio. And, you know, I feel confident, not confident, but I think Roger Marshall's going to go down in, Kansas. I think Nebraska is very seriously in play. I think South Carolina is very seriously in play. Come on. South Carolina, Annie Andrews, George Wilde did endorse her in the Washington Post yesterday.

Keep in mind, Lindsay Graham was like super, super unpopular. So then you take all of the like the MAGA people that hate Lindsay Graham, Ralph Norman's basically still out there being like, don't vote for this piece of shit. And then on top of that, like, I mean, you have a candidate who has no political. experience who thinks foreign policy questions are totally unfair because she is not involved in politics. Annie Andrews is good and the economy is in the trash. I don't know, man. I'm not saying we're going to win South Carolina, but I think South Carolina will be closer than Alaska because Peltolla will win Alaska by six to eight points and South Carolina will be closer than five. I have to avoid this one. Hey, look, Dr. and Andrews, we're going to be in South Carolina. I hope you're right.

I do have to say I'm a little bit burned when you were working for Hillary in 2016 and I had left my party and gone through a midlife crisis and got very high on my own supply going on cable news, beginning of my cable news career, telling all of my fellow Republican strategists

that they signed up for disaster. There's a clip of me that goes around on, I believe, John Heilman's show, on Bloomberg, talking about how Hillary was going to win South Carolina. Famously, she lost the election and Los Angeles going about like 100 points.

And so I'm just, I'm a little bit once burned on the Palmetto state. Understandable. But, you know, I really do think that like we, people are underestimating just how much of an albatross around people's necks Trump is going to be. And then, you know, Darlene Graham, I think has some specific candidate deficiencies. You know, I do think Annie Andrews, I love her. She's libing out a little too much. Like, you kind of need to be a little bit more heterode.

Docs. You can't just be like a resistance mom if you're running in South Carolina. Throw the gaze under the bus. Everybody's talking about always throwing the trans under this. And I feel bad as a person to do that on a trans sport. It's like Dr. Andrews, it's okay. Like, whatever. Do some really offensive comment about the gays. Just a kind of signal. Like, that's fine. We can, we'll accept one. I'm giving you permission. Totally. I do think we need more. I mean, like, it's been encouraging to see things like James Talarico in Texas being like, yeah, I said a lot of crazy shit and actually trans women shouldn't play sports and whatever else I...

Well, they can't play sports. They can't play sports. He didn't say that, Jesse. Against, sorry, he did say that he reversed course on trans surgeries for minors, which I think is a reasonable position. You know, I don't think we should be throwing marginalized communities under the bus left and right, but like, you got to have a position or two. Yeah.

Everybody can play sports that they want. They're going to be certain rules on certain kinds of sports, you know. Correct. Contact sports. If you've gone through puberty, I'm sorry. Like they're just, you know, if it's youth soccer, we can lump everybody together, where whatever you want. You know, just talk like a normal person.

But, you know, he's pumping up the oil and gas industry. It's like you have to do things to distinguish yourself from the National Democratic Party if you're running in a Trump plus 13, 14 state. And Mary's Peltola has been very good about this. She's fantastic. She won't even come on my podcast because she's just like, I don't talk to anybody except for Alaska. Which is great, by the way. That's fine.

Totally. If that's what you want to do, spurn me if you want. I mean, I'd love to have you. Either way, it's up to them. I'm retired from campaigns. But I just think that the notion of like really separating yourself from the national party and really hyper-localizing things. Totally. She dunks on the entire lower 48, you know.

She's like, fuck all of these people. Well, I'm going to make the Jesse 270 to win map. I'm doing it live. up on screen for people. It's just all blue. Yeah. So you've got Alaska plus six to eight. That's a win. Tala Rico, you have as a win? I think Tala Rico wins by like a point or two. Okay. Sherrod, do you have as a win? Sherrod, I think we'll win. We're to come back to Abdul, but do you think he's a win? Yes, but an unnecessarily close win. Okay, we'll come back to that. Maine, Troy Jackson, you have a win?

I think so, but Susan Collins is like the one that I feel. Okay, so you have maybe. You're maybe on this one. No, I don't think she can defy the national. No, okay. You've got Troy Jackson's win. Iowa? Iowa, I hate to say it, but I think Ashley Henson's going to pull it out. You think Ashley Henson's going to win. Okay. And then Nebraska, Kansas, Mississippi, with Wright, we're talking about Scott Cologne.

I love, I love Scott Cologne. I think he's absolutely 10 out of 10 candidate. I think Ty Pinkins, and Ty Pinkins, the independent black guy who has run previously as a Democrat. I think he might pull a little bit of the vote away from that. I'm not following that close enough. I don't know. He's just like a weirdo, a total weirdo doing his own thing, being an egomaniac with, you know, detached from reality.

All right. If you're in Mississippi, spring into action on that. And, you know, make sure everybody on your Facebook, and it's whatever he knows that this is not a person to vote for. Same with Montana, by the way. If Alani Bankhead would get out of that race, which she has made abundantly clear she will not. Seth Bodner could win that race.

But, you know. Yes, Seth Rott is running good. He used the guy that shot the flock cameras in his ad, which I like. That's good. That's good signaling. I mean, I'm not a gun person. I don't like guns. I would melt them all.

It scares me to hold one. But strategically speaking, if you're an independent candidate running in Montana, you're really touching a lot of buttons if you're taking out the gun and you're using it properly and you're firing it at a flock camera. Totally. That's right on. Do you remember that ads at John Tessie? where he would be like checking his Montana beef on his flight to D.C.

Like you got to do some of that stuff. You got to do it. That's good. You got a signal. Okay. So Iowa is red. Nebraska, Kansas, Mississippi, Montana. Are you flipping any of these on your map?

This will be on screen. Yes. Yes. I think we will win both Nebraska and Kansas. Wow. I mean, I really do. Well, Dan Osborne is an independent famously. So that would be.

We're lumping him in because Bernie's also. independent and it's just going to make the map easier. So that would be 54. You have the Republicans at 46? Yeah. I think Dan Osborne came within six and a half points. He ran 14 points ahead of Kamala Harris. And it's just a totally different electorate.

I'm going to do some real talk here. I mean, I think that the gap and who knows, honestly, and this could be a situation. I think it's important to say, like where kind of quality does matter on the margins, right? like, Carrie Lake lost because the Republicans nominated an insane person, like in any other, any other person they had nominated would have won, you know, in a good Republican year. Like, they're just our, Herschel Walker, for example. We're about to get up 2028. We wouldn't be having the John Ossoff boomlet had the Republicans not nominated such

terrible people in Georgia. And he, Osloff loses the first shot. He's against Purdue. But, you know, and then you have Walker against Wernock. Like, there are examples of this. So it can matter. And this is cutting a little closer. or Dan Osborne is not Hurtt Walker or Carrie Lake,

but Adam Hamilton is running like a million times better of a race than Dan Osborne, who I don't have anything against personally. It seems like a very nice guy. His ads were really good last time. The Ricketts campaign has successfully kind of branded him as just a generic Democrat, and he's running as an independent. I don't know. I wanted a little more of the vibes of shooting the gun at the flock camera from Dan

Osborne, and I'm bearish on that race. That's fair. I mean, I think he's more mild-mannered than I would like. He's not, like, angry. He should be angrier. But he's like, he's a pretty good populist, you know? He, like, all he does just, like, tweet all day about, like, Tyson beef and, like, consolidation. When he came on the show, he did, he did have the best setting for a podcast guest that I've ever had.

He's always, like, in his shop. Yeah, he's in the garage while doing the podcast interview, which I did like. I'm hopeful that I'm wrong. I'm just, I'm trying to be real. Real radical candor on the board podcast. So you've got 50. Before Democrats. All right.

Yeah. I really think we are looking at like- Democrats and Democratic League of independents. Democrats and totally independent independence. I really think we are like heading toward a Democrat plus 10 or plus 12 midterm. And I think people just haven't quite wrapped their heads around what that actually looks like in practice when you start to talk about Senate and House races that, you know, in places that Trump carried by 10 to 15 points, you know, those are all going to be in play,

especially in these places where we have like, Kansas is a great example. You know, Kansas is obviously still a state that leans red, but you've got this super dynamic pastor who's running it and it lights out campaign. And Roger Marshall is one of the worst incumbent Senate politicians I've ever seen in my life. You know, I mean... He's horrible.

He's running a horrific campaign. I want to correct myself. I don't think I've done this. When I was talking with Bill on Monday, we were doing the highlights from the debate, I don't know where I saw, I just saw it wrong. I thought that the Kansas... State Bureau is in Johnson County, it is not at all. Actually, it's like three and a half hours in there,

which is a significant correction because the point I was trying to make is like, okay, you know, Roger Marshall's getting booed and shouted down, but like it is in Johnson County. But no, that is not right. I don't know what county it's in. It's actually in Hutchinson, Kansas, which is, as I'm pulling up my map here and looking at it live, I'm just, I keep pressing the minus button to get further and further away to find something that is close to it that people would recognize.

I mean, it's in the middle of nowhere. Like, it's like way south. It's like, it's whatever, northwest of Wichita, like an hour or something. So that's good. That's a good sign. It's a good sign. Yeah. I was surprised by how good of a candidate, Adam Hamilton.

He seems like one of those guys that we would find on paper and be like, oh, we found a religious Democrat and everyone's going to love him. And then he'd be like as boring as like a cardboard cutout of a Democrat. And it turns out he's super dynamic. And he lands about the best punch. I've seen any Democrat land. cycle. He was dragging Roger Marshall at that thing. He really

was. We had the highlights on Monday if you want to listen to that. I want to go to the house stuff, but just back to Abdul really quick. Everybody knows that I have been kind of dragging the moderates for like making the Hassan Piker thing a bigger deal than it should be. And it's like what

Hassan Piker has some bad views, but also he was absolutely right about what the U.S. should be doing with regards to the wars in the Middle East and that is the salient issue of the midterm and Democrats should be trying to reach out to anti-war voters and not scare them away. I still feel that way. But then Hassan decided to do an interview with Axios for some reason. And he's getting asked about whether the U.S. is worse than Al-Qaeda. And he's like, yes.

And I'm going, bro, bro, please. Just like I was saying the third way, stop making Hassan Piker such a central part of the Michigan race. It's not helpful to anybody. I'm now saying to Hassan Piker, stop making yourself the central issue of the Michigan race. You can still live stream, do your thing. But like, who is benefiting from you talking to Axiops? I truly have no idea. And what does he get out of it?

What does Hassan Piker get out of doing an interview with Alex Thompson? What are we doing here? And I do, I have to say, like, Abdul, he can be very good. He's clearly very talented. He is charismatic, et cetera. he also like slips into being a condescending prick from time to time. And that's the part of him more than any like one policy stance. Like when he's a condescending prick and people don't want to vote for you if you're going to be like that.

You know, like, and the Hassan Piker stuff that he was on one of the Sunday shows this week being like, why are we talking about a streamer from California? And he said that like four times. I'm like, well, then why are you campaigning with a streamer from California? That's why we're talking about. It's crazy to ask regular like random Democrats. like Jamie Raskin was on Meet the Press and Chris Mubger asked like four questions about his side fighters.

He's like, what are you talking about? But like, Abdul is campaigning with him. So like now you kind of have to live with it or distance yourself, which he is kind of doing now. I agree with that. And it is like you notice that some of the Michigan Democrats haven't endorsed Abdul or been very lukewarm, not Mallory and not his actual opponents. You know, Haley and Mallory have been good. And Alyssa has been good. Yeah.

She's been like out on the pavement for him. My understanding from behind the scenes is that Abdul's a little prickly. And so I do think that there are some also some just normal politics. Like if you're going to be a politician, you've got to do politics. And you can't be like, oh, the establishment doesn't like me. And it's all because of APEC. And it's like, well, APEC, put a lot of money in your race. And that's a legit criticism to have.

Okay, that's totally legit criticism. But like also, you got to play politics and like win people back over. Like, look at what Zoron. Like, Zoron's doing it. Right. He's winning people over. He's trying. You know, and you've got to try.

He's like smiling in every interview, like never has a feather ruffled. Like, you know, he's just, you want to hang out with him. And like, I very much do not want to hang out with Abdul El Siyadh. I wouldn't mind hang out with him, but I hear, I hear why people don't feel that way. I hear why some people feel that way. And to be clear, I think people should unequivocally vote for him. But like, you know, he gives off the, I feel like if I talk to him, he'd be like, dude, you're like not even smart enough to be talking to me.

I'm a Rhodes Scholar. You know. I got an email from a listener that was like, could you call? clearly say where you would be on this because I'm confused. And I'm like, do you listen to the show? I listen to Pod Save the World while I'm napping, while I'm cooking, while I'm rage tweeting. So sometimes I miss the nuances of Ben and Tommy's takes. And so that happens sometimes. But just to be abundantly clear, it is not a close call at all in the Michigan Senate race for me. Mike Rogers is a rubber stamp for a fascist. And Abdul would be one vote out of 100.

He'd be perfectly fine. And I would gladly vote for Abdul if I lived in Michigan. I just want to say I aspire to one day have no. knows anything, ascend to the levels of Tim Miller nap rotation. Navy. You got to keep working one day. Got to keep grinding. All right, y'all, if you're a homeowner, think about the last time something broke in your house, not just a leaky faucet, but like a real breakdown, a pipe burst on

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Let's see what's happening in the House. I mean, if you think that the Democrats are going to have 54 Senate seats, I assume that you think that they're going to have a much bigger House win than what is kind of the conventional wisdom right now. Yeah, I mean, I think like my general take on the House is people have convinced themselves that there are only like 30 districts that could ever be. be in play again because gerrymandering, you know, got rid of all the competitive seats. And like the country is like basically a 50-50 country. So those people have to go somewhere.

And the way that you draw a bunch of safe districts is you also draw a bunch of like R plus 10 to 18 districts. And there are like 60 districts across the country that are between Trump plus 10 and Trump plus 18 districts. 60. And most of them are not even, they're not even in the likely Republican category. Like, if you look at Cook Political, they're finally starting to move some of those, some of the guys that you were pumping up in your, who should you donate to, peace. You know, Chris Jones in Arkansas and like, you know, a bunch of these seats are finally being. One of just got upgraded. I also wanted to mention yesterday is Blake Jenda Bean, who's running for Stefanik's seat. Good candidate. Punch Bull did an article about him yesterday. And they said that this is crazy.

The Republicans somehow leaked their internal poll where they were at 47 and Trump unfavorable was at 49. in that district, the Trump won by 21. So that's not even in your 10 to 18 range. That's a Trump 21 district. But that's kind of, that got moved from solid to likely in part because the Republican candidate Anthony Constantino is like a sticker salesman slash rapper who's like really close friends with Roger Stone and is like a MAGA pro insurrection rapper, which, yeah, I mean, that might even be too far for at least Stefanix district.

And Blake is like a normal dairy farmer, normal dude, moderate. So that's one example. I'm going to update my list coming up here probably next week so people can take a look at one more time with some of these stretch races they could support. But that's one I'm looking at, New York 21. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you haven't seen his rap video about Zoran Mamdani, it's highly recommended. It's a good listen. But yeah, I think especially, you know, I think there are a bunch of districts in Texas and Florida that were drawn under the premise that, you know, Latinos had forever deserved. at the Democratic Party and joined the Republican Party, which I don't think was ever the case. You know, I think a bunch of those districts are going to be in play. You know, and again, to your point about candidate quality, there's a bunch of districts like that one, like Texas 15 with Bobby Polito, you know, the Tehano music star. Yeah, I've already kind of moved Bobby Polito into safe category. I mean, I know, don't,

don't tell my friends helping that race. But like, but Johnny Garcia, that's more of a stretch district in Texas. It's also a highly Hispanic district. He's he worked at the jail. He's like a law and order kind of Hispanic Democrat. Just perfect good perfect casting for that type of seat. Yep. The other place that I think Democrats can pick up a bunch of seats is in Colorado. Okay. This is interesting. I've been wanting to talk about those seats. So go through them for us.

So Colorado 3, you've got Jeff Hurd and Colorado 5 is Jeff Crank. Those are both like, you know, Trump plus 10 districts. So Jeff Hurd is replaced Bober. Bober's still there, but she moved districts. So that's basically Western. So that's the mountains, basically. And then Jeff Crank in the fifth, that's Colorado Springs. I think the mountain district is tough. The fifth, Colorado Springs ain't the Colorado Springs of James Dobson anymore. Like, you know, things have changed. Yeah. Dude, I went to college, at Colorado College in the Springs. And I was volunteering for Obama in 2008 knocking doors. And yeah, It was, I got the, I had the N-word dropped on me a lot in the context of that race, but it has gotten a lot more progressive over the past two decades.

And then Colorado 8 is like on everyone's map. That's Gabe Evans district and Manny Rutnell, the beautiful, arguably our hottest candidate. And he's, I think, definitely going to win that. I love the Democratic straight men are comfortable just kind of talking about how hot their candidates are. You know, there's a cultural difference between the two parties. I think it's partly because I'm not allowed to talk about how hot women are. And so I just lean heavily toward being like, oh, my, you know, Chris Gallant was also on my list. I know you were talking about him the other day.

I know. But that's another district that's like that's in safe Republican territory on Cook Political. It's like a Trump plus 10 district where we've got a Black Hawk helicopter and volunteer firefighter running against run of the mill, Nick Lilota. I mean, those seats are going to be in play. And Bobert, I think Democrats could plausibly sweep all. eight congressional districts in Colorado. Come on. Jared Polis was pushing this to me as well when I talked to him last.

Like it helps that they have on the top of the ticket a admitted murderer maybe and pathological liar. Victor Marx, the Republican, yeah. One of the most insane, arguably crazier than the original Marx. I mean, he's a total lunatic. Totally. He's a complete lunatic. He's the Republican nominee for governor in Colorado.

I do think that that helps. And even in those other House districts. like the Republicans, like the party is just very depressed, which has an impact. Right, right. And again, like in a lot of these, like, I know Jessica Killen is running against Jeff Crank. She's, she's raised, like, a bunch of money. She's a veteran. She's, like, we have good candidates in a lot of these districts. I'm going to be adding Jessica to my next list of people to support. So, yeah, I think that fifth. I'm a little more skeptical than you. You're the hopium hofer. Bobert and Hurd, I think are tough. But I think

eight and, yeah, manny, hot manny. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, in the 5th and the Colorado Springs District, I think, are both doable. He's so hot that his opponent in the primary was, like, running ads being like, I know how hot he is, but still vote for me. The voters were like, definitely no, we're voting for the hot guy. I learned to flag also when we're talking about Nebraska. I just didn't, Chris Backmeyer's, Nebraska. One, you could be in a position where Democrats have two of the Nebraska districts.

That's not the Don Bacon District, you know, which is the Democrats are going to win. And that's like the top pick up in Omaha. But like kind of the next one. over and Backmire is a good candidate you know kind of foreign policy minded guy. The independent dropped out of that. The independent guy dropped out of there and that was going to be a jihad of mine if he had stayed in.

But since he dropped out, we're not going to, we're not going to bother him. Okay. If you guys are listening to this and thinking you guys, calm down. All right. This can't be like this bad. Maria Salazar is running in Florida 27. This is another, this is also in these, this Trump between 10 and

18 kind of territory you're talking about. She has an ad out this morning that's like a real vibe shift and I want to play it. It's a president. Some of your immigration enforcement efforts have gone too far. In July, 50% of the 50,000 people that were detained had no criminal record. Be careful what your advisors are telling you about immigration policy. The same Hispanics who help you get to the White House in 2024 feel betrayed today.

You can be for immigration when Lincoln was for slavery and Reagan was for communism. I'm not talking about giving them amnesty. I'm talking about giving them a dignit. life in this promised land. I am Maria O'Virus Salazar, and I approve this message. I mean, so on the one hand, like, that she feels like she has to do that, demonstrates that she knows that she's in political trouble. And that substantively, I do think it's worth mentioning, this is totally insane.

That, like, it's like, oh, it's Donald Trump's advisor's fault. And if he wanted to, he could be the Lincoln of immigration. It's like, have you been in a coma the last 10 years, lady? Like, no. I mean, he wants to be the Charles Lindbergh of immigration. and he's been working very hard at that and doing it quite well. I have such bad political brain rot that I didn't even consider how awful the substance was. I was just like, I was like, we got Republicans in Trump plus 15 districts being.

He's the Jefferson Davis of immigration, ma'am. I'm sorry. Like, and so, but so yeah, so it's like, please, sir. I mean, even in the ad where she's trying to distance from him, like she can't be like Trump is bad. Just be like, please, sir, won't you think of the Latino children? Why don't you think of the Latinx children that are being held in the camps? It's like, who is this lady? Oh, but like this is what I'm talking about is I saw yesterday also or earlier this week,

Brent Buchanan, the founder of Signal, a Republican polling shop. He was like, if you're in a Trump plus 15 district, you should be polling that district. Like, Republicans are very clearly trying to figure out how the hell they hold on to whatever they can hold on to. And if you're running ads like that in a district Trump carried by 15 points, like you're not doing that without some polling that's showing, oh, my God. Well, I got to tell you, I do not know anything about Elliot Rodriguez or opponent. And I don't want to pretend.

I'm doing my best to get up to speed on all the House candidates. But, you know, we all have our blind spots. But I'm endorsing him officially right now as a donation candidate because this lady seems like she's worried. And it's also like, fuck you. Okay. There's no hope that it's going to get better with Donald Trump. You endorsed him. He's your president.

Like, he's doing internment camps. Go down with the ship or separate yourself. Sorry, Maria. I think he's like a TV guy. I think he was like on, you know, local news there, which I love that. Probably means he knows how to talk, which is always not necessarily a given for Democrats. No doubt. Go support Elliott Rodriguez.

Okay. We are going to end with the 2028 game. Your newsletter, nobody's listening, looks at kind of, what the possible 208ers are doing. And like one thing that you do as part of this is my understanding is you consume all of their interviews. Is that right? Yes.

I at like 2 to 2.5x, but yes. Yeah, okay. Yeah. 2.5x is great. That's a real sicko. I'm at 2.0. If I want to refresh my memory about what I asked someone in the past before they come back on, I will sometimes listen to myself at 3X because I kind of can fill in the words since it's

me, but I can't do higher than two on any other pods. So good for you. And so my game is the superlatives. I did a tweet yesterday that some people didn't like where I was like, I don't understand as we're here September 17th, why there aren't prospective 2028ers that have like cornered the market on being ahead of the game on AI, speaking about the AI threat, or being really anti-Iran war and like being the person that is known as being the anti-Iran war person or being the person as known as the anti-IAC person.

Like Trump is giving people a lot of opportunity. and some of the pushback was, well, it's like only 2026 and it's early and what about Obama? And I was like, by September 17th of 2006, people knew, Democratic voters knew, Obama was the red states, blue states guy and that he was the against the Iraq war guy. Like he had already solidified that before he had announced, before the midterms, he was young, but he'd had that. And I don't know if we're seeing that out there. But maybe I'm wrong. You're listening to all the interviews. And so that's why we're going to do the supporters of the games with you.

We'll start with AI. do we have a 2028er who's the most ahead of the game speaking about the potential AI risks? I think AOC is out there with the moratorium, but she's not like the most in the weeds on the AI stuff. I think Rokana has been, they'll be kind of a running theme, I think, in this game. But Rokana definitely has been out there. He was like, Dario's letter didn't go nearly far enough. They should all be in jail. Josh Shapiro speaking on this today.

So maybe he can take the mantle. I wanted to have. Shapiro has moved a bunch on tech stuff in general. Like, you know, he was doing a lot to try to lure data centers to Pennsylvania earlier in this term, but, you know, has backtracked on a bunch of that. And to his credit, he was just like, I wish more candidates would do this if they were going to change positions. He was just like, well, I listened to the people of Pennsylvania and they don't fucking want this. And so that's my job is to serve my constituents. And I was like, oh, that's kind of refreshing. Politics. Doing politics. That's great. All right. Most anti-Aron. Anti-Aron. war. Chris Murphy, maybe, I would say Chris Murphy. He's been, you know, there's a lot of been a lot of, I don't, I'm not really sure, honestly, what the value is of doing the 83rd vote about the

War Powers Act, but like, you know, Murphy and. I mean, it worked for Mary Piltola. She got to say that Dan Sullivan's wrote for the war 10 times. That's pretty good. That was one important line that's useful. It is good. I guess I would say this. If you're listening and you're a 2028 advisor,

and you're like, Tim, what's your number one piece of advice? that you would have, I would be like, go watch Cindy Sheehan videos and try to get your your principle to sound as close to that as possible about the Iran war. I just, I don't understand. People get it.

People are connecting the Iran war to the increased costs that they're feeling. People are sick of the fucking Middle East wars. And I just, Democrats are saying, like, if you just look at it on paper, it's like they're saying the right thing, but the oomph, the oomph is missing for me.

I should also say Gallego. Gallego's been really good on the war. He's actually a year, 2020, though. I had a mind on this point. He has been good. Most anti-ice. Distinguishing themselves on anti-ice. I'm trying to think.

Has there been, ah. We're back to AOC. AOC, it's got to be. To her credit, she's been selling abolish ice hats the whole time. Since, like, 2018, she was like, yeah, of course they're fucking corrupt. Okay. So those are the three topics I mentioned in the tweet. all of those categories, I think you could have given to AOC or Rokana.

So I do think that they're both doing certain things. You know, Rocana. Who knows? If you're just looking at the substance, what they're saying, I don't want to overstate that. But like, even AOC, I don't know. The ice thing I think will give to her. All right. A couple of those.

So you're doing, you're monitoring the interviews. So who's doing the most podcast interviews right now outside of the bubble? outside. I'm not not counting not asking who's doing the most MS now hits. Who's doing the most? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Rokana has done twice as many podcasts as anyone else in the game. Chris Murphy's done a lot. Pete is good about going to interesting places.

Gavin, Gavin is very good about doing, you know, he did Sean Ryan. He did, like, he'll kind of go anywhere. I'd like to see more people go to, you know, sports podcasts and movie podcasts. and movie podcast, whatever your thing is. Like, if you're a Star Wars nerd and you're J.B. Pritzker, you know, go find, like, a movie or Star Wars podcast. I don't know. Biggest on reform, like, and, like,

how the fuck we're going to take care of shit if they get back in power. Pete's actually been really good on this. And he has been championing these kind of structural systemic reforms since his first campaign. But he's very good about, like, we need a constitutional amendment to get rid of Citizens United, expand the court, get rid of the filibuster, X, Y, Z. Trump corruption and jailing Trump people and going after Jared.

I mean, kind of a runaway for John Ossoff on that one. Run away for John Osloff. Overall, 2028, like, creating a brand for themselves right now, who's done the best so far? I think AOC and Pete Buttigieg are the two best positioned candidates going into, you know, 2027. They actually, like, have a clear, cogent theory of the case. I think Josh Shapiro also people are kind of underestimating him. He hasn't been doing as much national stuff because he has to pretend that he's very worried about his reelection in a swing state. But like when Pennsylvania flips four house seats and then he has a Democratic legislature

and can push through a bunch of stuff. And he at least like he has a narrative. You know what I mean? A lot of these people, it's like I still have no idea what they would be running on. I saw if you have to throw in there too, I think. So this goes to your narrative. So this goes, okay, I think that Pete and AOC has that. Does anybody have a red hat?

Do we have a single person that has a red hat? Make America great again. It would be a different color, I assume. A purple hat. A pink pussy hat. Does anybody have a pink pussy hat with a reason for them to be the candidate? I think, like, not to keep gassing up AOC, but she really is the only one that she's like, I don't care if I'm president.

I just want people to have health care. Gavin Newsom is like actively polling the people who interview him to like, what should I, what should be my thing? Adam Friedland, of all people, was like, but like, what's your, what's your, like, Medicare for all? What's your thing? He was like, I don't know. I mean, like, striking out against injustice and standing up for rights.

I'm like, that's not a thing. That's not. James Carville's thing, besides, for him, it wasn't the hat. It was the whiteboard. The hat's now to stand in. Is the black church? Do we have anybody that has a message for the black church right now? I mean, Pete has been...

Kamala. Kamala starts with an enormous lead with black voters, and I think everyone is kind of like waiting to see what she does, especially Gavin Newsom now, apparently, who's run is contingent upon her not running. Things can change, trends can change, whatever. But had we played this game last year, Gavin would have been the answer to a lot of these questions. It was interesting.

Like, he felt like he really grabbed hold of that with the redistricted. and has been a little rudderless since. Yeah, I think, I mean, he's still incredibly talented. I think people underestimate just how good he is. And not just like, not just he gives a good interview or whatever, but like it's, you know this. You've watched people try to like work a room. It's a hard thing to do.

And he can go into any room and people are like just buy and whatever he's selling. Westmore is kind of like that too. Westmore's kind of just got it. Westmore is really good in person. Yeah. crazy like magnetic energy where you're just like well this guy is electric and he's many rootinol level uh hot you know really hot we need that we need hot democrats okay about the pete thing though like i underestimated how sick of a job being transportation secretary was going to be

because he just like has doled out a trillion dollars to like every community in america from you know the bipartisan infrastructure act and stuff and he's just like when he goes to south carolina now, like, he's getting, like, welcomed by the mayor who's like, this is the guy that built the bridge that, like, brought back the downtown. And he's just like, and it's a lot of stuff in, you know, marginalized communities and, like, you know, abandoned formerly vibrant black neighborhoods. And, you know, like, he's like fully already campaigning for president. I mean, he's helping to boost people in the midterms, but he's like doing 25 events a week. Him and Rao are already campaigned. Yeah. And Gavin. The three of them already campaign, but Gavin might

not have come. Look at it's in. Okay. There we are. That's Jesse Lerick. His show. Nobody knows anything. I agree with it.

The branding I'm not sure about. Anything you don't like about the podcast is Rob Flaherty's idea and anything you like is me. I like your graphics. Great graphics. That actually is Rob. I hate to give him flowers. Dang. That's all Rob.

We appreciate him. We'll have a little Rob on soon. All right, Jesse. Keep us posted. We'll have much more to do in 2028. Everybody go check out the podcast. And I hate. to your mom. Thanks so much for having me.

All right. Thanks so much to Jesse. Up next, right Thompson. Stick around. It's going to be a good one. And now a message for our sponsor of the Reading Room. As of this week, Todd Blanche has officially been Trump's Attorney General for a month. And the full Epstein files still aren't public. Oh, Thomas Massey was trying to work on getting the rest of the Epstein files pushed out as well as impeaching Pete Higgs-Seth.

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slash bulwark or check out our Morningshots Newsletter. All right, we are back. His books include the cost of these dreams, a collection of essays on sports and the broader social and historical forces shaping our country. His most recent book is The Barn about the murder of Emmett Till, one of the great nonfiction books of the 2020s. We had a whole show about that earlier this year. If you missed it, go check that out. He's also the EP of True South and Emmy winning series on Southern Food and Culture and his article on the LSU O'L Miss rivalry and his late father is out tomorrow on ESPN.com.

It's Wright Thompson. Welcome back to the show, Tiger Bait. Hey, man, how you doing? It's a fun week to be from our corner of the world. I wanted to have you back on on Game Week. There is many political, cultural, societal implications. There's also football. You know, the governor of Louisiana is a full-time athletic director for LSU football. Ole Miss had one of their former players, one of our players

served at the practice facility yesterday. So, you know, we're bringing in politics and law enforcement and big skit. Oh, it's unbelievable. I mean, it's everyone is showing their ass. We'll get to football. I kind of wanted to vibe check with you. I think the first time we met, I don't know if you remember this, We're talking about the Grove. This is a hard week for me, the LSU Ole Miss Hate Week, because I love Oxford. And I love Baton Rouge. And my favorite place to see a sporting event, please don't tell anyone, is Tiger Stadium. So I'm with you on that.

And one of my favorite place to hang out is the Grove. But we were talking about, this was, I don't know, this was right after Trump won. And you were kind of lamenting the degree to which, like, MAGA has kind of had kind of infiltrated the culture around there. And obviously, it's Mississippi. It was always conservative. ground. But just, you know, the tone, the tenor, the nature of it had changed somewhat in ways that were maybe a little unappealing. And I'm wondering what that vibe check is for you like now in Mississippi. I mean, the momentum feels to be waning a little bit, or maybe that's cope.

I would say two fans. I mean, one, Ole Miss is, it is the largest percentage of out-of-state students in the SEC. It used to be a deeply Mississippi thing. And now, it's a Mississippi, Georgia and Texas thing. So, for instance, to get to my tent in the grove, I have to walk by a tent where this guy has a sign that says, like, no liberals allowed, and then all these crazy political signs. And I kind of just want to walk up and ask him, which one are you from? Are you from Texas or Georgia? Because you're not from here. Like, the most partisan people I know in the world understand that the ethos of the grove is, everybody gets a plate and everybody gets a drink.

And so I hate to be someone from Mississippi blaming something on outsiders because I can, you know, I can hear it. But, you know, I wish people would understand that they're coming into our home and playing with our traditions. And the Grove isn't about a goddamn chandelier in a tent. It's about the fact that it is a center of radical hospitality. So, you know, there's some of that that's been a problem. I mean, the larger question is, you know, I know a lot of very, very conservative farmers who are just done with all of this. I mean, people who voted for it three times just because of the ways in which the Trump

administration has wrecked the American farming economy. And so, you know, you do get the sense that people stand on business and this is catastrophically bad for people who live in global commodity markets. and it's really bad. Yeah, because you're doing farming and still, and obviously, so you're in the community there. I think the last time you were on, there was grumbling already in farm country about what's happening with the tariffs in particular, but it was before the Iran war started. And that has exacerbated prices, costs for everybody significantly. You know, what is being done with Trump mean?

He's not on the ballot anymore, right? I mean, does Donald Trump just mean taking down the flag or doesn't mean, well, shit, we might, we might. we might need to vote for Scott Cologne and for Senate in Mississippi. Farmers are going to vote for the person who is most deeply invested in the idea of free capital markets at the expense of almost any other social thing. And forever, that was Republicans. And it's not. And so I think people are looking around trying to figure out what political movement to be part of.

you know, it feels tremendously in flux. And, you know, at least a farming community in Mississippi where we live, people are, you know, their whole livelihoods depend on, you know, these money and markets. And so, you know, my family's been farming in Mississippi since James Madison was the president. And so this is the worst one we've ever had. This two shall pass, but you do get the sense that they're deeply, deeply conservative people who are tired of it.

Your dad was involved in, you know, Democratic politics down there. Yeah. Not the easiest place to be involved in democratic politics. When you were last on, we were discussing your mother and the nobility of posting on Facebook, even though she's taking shit from it, from her neighbors. I don't know. I mean, let's just stiff some hopium for a second. That Senate race is the one that's kind of on the outer edge of when people mention,

And man, if it's a real big tsunami year, maybe Scott Colon could win. I don't know. I mean, you talked to Democratic folks down there. Like, is there any sense that maybe like some actual elections will go the other way? Or is that a little wish-casty? You know, there are people who are raising money and raising hope. I mean, Brandon Presley, the last cycle was polling really well. I mean, I think the larger problem is structural and it's not a Republican issue.

It's a democratic issue in that the magic number that they talk about is, 25% of white vote, right? And there was a machine when the civil rights era of leaders like Aaron Henry were running the Delta. You know, my father and Aaron Henry were the co-chairs of the Cahoma County Democratic Party, and they were in charge of the get out the vote. And it was an incredibly sophisticated operation. And, you know, I think if you look at Clinton, Clinton got 24 and 26. I mean, he was right around that. And then all of those structures have been torn down since 96. So the problem is that, you know, the Mississippi Democratic Party is guilty of malpractice

and is leaving votes on the table because they destroyed a system that was very efficient and no one has any idea now how to put it back together. And so it's frustrating having grown up watching the planning meetings happen in my house where there were, you know, white and black preachers, you know, in our house all year getting ready for election day. And you just get the sense that, like, the Mississippi ground game was dismantled and there's nothing to replace it. And so, like, not to get in the weeds of it, but it's difficult for these candidates to get to those numbers after what the leadership in parts of the Mississippi Democratic Party has done over the last 25 years to alienate the people most likely to help. It is frustrating to hear, though. One in four doesn't seem like that much.

Like, come on, whites, we only needed one and four. I mean, you know, the issue is the votes are there and the party doesn't seem particularly interested in getting them. The other thing that they're messing around with is obviously the Voting Rights Act and Clay. It's interesting. Mississippi did not move as quickly as some of the other states to remove their majority black district represented by Benny Thompson. There's some element of that, like, there's just the tiniest bit of shame left, I think, in the national Republicans where they're like, God, this is going to look really bad if we do this in Mississippi.

There is something about that. I think that was part of it. Part of it is that Mississippi is not quite as easy to gerrymander as Louisiana and Tennessee in some of these other states and could end up backfiring. But they're still looking into it. Tate Reeves, your great governor, said that after the clay decision that Benny Thompson's tenure, reigning terror on the the second congressional district was over. It's not over quite yet, but I don't know. What's your sense on that and just kind of the broader, you know,

going back to the barn, Civil Rights Act was 10 years after the murder of Emmett Till, kind of the significance of that. I think your point about there being some sort of shame, I mean, also like tremendously admire Roger Wicker. I think Mississippians from Roger to Tate Reeves, who you just mentioned, recognize on a level beyond the sort of rhetoric of campaigning and the rhetoric acquired to fundraise. I think people have a deep understanding here of what the actual forces are that are being evoked and what really happens when those things run unchecked. And so I

think there's probably some of that, that in Mississippi, this isn't rhetorical. In Mississippi, there are a lot of people alive who remember how nasty it got for everyone the last time. we went down this road. And I think there has to be some sort of flinching from the understanding of how bad it gets for all Mississippians if we allow rhetoric to drive where we're going. I mean, you know, we talked about, you know, 195 in Mississippi. You know, Emmett Till goes to that store less than 24 hours after the polls close in an unbelievably contentious gubernatorial. Gubernatorial. Yes, that's a tough word to say. that campaign where everybody's trying to be the most segregated. And the rhetoric was a, you know, there's a lot of Civil War metaphors about bayonets. And so I think in Mississippi, even the people who dabble in it professionally understand how dangerous it is to wake up slumbering forces. I wonder if there's a little bit on the other side, though, have the slumbering forces of kind of the civil rights resistance been awakened a little bit by it? I mean, you see this in other places.

And you talk, obviously, a lot of folks when you did the barn. I mean, the people that you worked with are doing like real work in these communities to try to keep these stories. So what is kind of your sense in that world? I think a broad swath of Mississippians understand that Mississippi has to feel like home to all Mississippians. And like, there is this thing rising up. And it's not just those groups working in the spaces you talk about.

you know, we see it everywhere in Oxford. You know, the yard signs for these candidates are everywhere in a way that they weren't two years ago for Democrats. And so, like, I know that's an inexact science, but, you know, you do feel this sense. Well, no, it's saying something. It goes back to your mom posted on Facebook. Yeah. It's like, you know, I mean, you realize that people might shit talk you.

I mean, it wasn't that long ago that there was that, you know, kind of viral video in the square. of the black woman and all the Ole Miss frat boys, like shouting monkey sounds at or, like that was during the Trump era. Like the guy running for Senate and Georgia shared that video and was like, hell yeah, Ole Miss boys. Did he? Mike Collins, yeah, the guy running for the Republican

running for Senate and Georgia posted that video with like a thumbs up. Just what a piece of shit. What a piece of shit. That's unbelievable. So to put up, the point is to put up the art sign is it's a minor statement of resistance, but an important one in Mississippi.

We might talk after all of these. elections and, you know, be like we were stupid and optimistic. Sure. But it feels to me in my daily life that people have had enough of the chaos. You know, I mean, a lot of really conservative people are conservative because they hate fast change. And so, and so, like, that's an entire swath of guaranteed voters who have been alienated. And I think you see that in Mississippi.

and you'll see it not so much in people supporting a candidate from another party, but maybe just being like, I got to sit this one out. So, I mean, I think it's happening in two ways. I think there's active resistance from the Democrats, and I think there's an understanding that some in the GOP understand that they're the dog who caught the car. Hi, friends and fellow students. Americans living abroad can legally vote in the U.S. election. Register or get tailored support.

at vote from abroad.org. Look, state deadlines are super close, so don't waste another second. Go to vote fromabroad.org now and click request my ballot, asked to receive it by email. All you got to do is fill it out and send it back in.

Don't miss this chance to shape the future. Don't delay. Vote fromabroad.org. I want to get back to your piece here at the end, but just kind of broadening it out. There's the kind of updated version of the, you know, guys with the Confederate flags in the stands. But we're doing it. They were doing a 2026 style on Twitter after the Ohio State, Texas

game. I'm sure you saw this. There's a video that UT puts out of like the students celebrating after this huge win, Arch Manning, great comeback. And you have all these Indian kids to go to the school, totally assimilating, wearing the fucking overalls with the burnt orange and doing the goddamn hook him horse, like doing all that stuff that annoys me. But they were there doing it. And the guy running. statewide railroad commissioner overseeing oil and gas, Beau French posts multiple times about how this is bad. Texas is being run over. We're being replaced. And this creates an interesting fissure on the right because there's a bunch of MAGA people that are like, hell yeah, you're right,

this is a problem. And then Carl Rove on the other side said, I'm voting a Democrat against this guy. It's the first time I'm voting for a Democrat since 1994. Well, I would say that he doesn't know his Texas history very well and doesn't clearly give a shit, but there were a lot of... French? I don't know why I didn't change his name to Bo America, I guess. He feels like he's sort of behind. Well, Beau Freedom. You know, there are a lot of people at the Alamo who weren't from Texas.

Do you know what I'm saying? Oh, really? Yeah. And so this, you know, this idea that like the central idea of Texas isn't, yeah, you're not through Texas, but Texas wants you anyway. Like, the idea that this person doesn't understand that just means that, like, he just is not connected in any way to the history of the place that he's from and the sort of Texas's place in its own imagination as a separate nation state and like, you know, no, you're not

from Texas, but Texas wants you anyway. And so like, I mean, this guy's just showing his ass. And now he's embarrassed because he's been caught. And so he has to double and triple down because his entire sort of identity is based on never admitting you're wrong. Because if you do that one, My God, what other things is this guy fucked up in his life? And so you're just watching someone, the dog who caught the car, who now has to hang on to the bumper as he's getting dragged through traffic. I mean, I kind of feel bad for the guy because he probably just had had a few drinks and popped off on the internet. And now he's got to own this shit.

And like, instead of just being like, you don't got to feel bad for him. I know, but it's also just like, I know, but just like, don't you think his wife at the dinner table is like, Bo, please shut up. Just stop talking. I'm not sure. And that's, I think, the interesting part of the moment is that I think that there is a grow, Eric Erickson, I don't usually cite here, has been kind of on and off the Trump train. He's a Georgia writer and radio host. He had a really interesting article this week that I'll link for people if they want to read it. And he talked about what he sees in evangelical circles in the South is this kind of fissure. where like there is a, the white identity side of this is rising again and becoming more overt. And there are people that are like not interested in the free markets, free people, pro-life,

strong military shit anymore. It's just white identity. And it's overt instead of subtext. It's been subtext for a while and it's back to be in text. And I don't, you, you write about this a lot like kind of balancing kind of this question, like thinking about our history in a way that's correct versus thinking about it.

It's like, hey, things were great when we were a white, country. And I don't know, that does feel like it's, it's maybe on the rise within these circles a little bit. Well, you get the sense that, you know, when they say don't take the Lord's name in vain, what that really means isn't just that you're not supposed to say, God damn. It's that anytime someone is standing in the house of God talking about the business of man, they are taking the Lord's name in vain. I mean, you have an entire strain of Christianity that is based on putting your stock portfolio or your political ideologies above the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And I think there are a lot of people who grew up in the church who instinctively understand that it isn't just, it doesn't just go against their sort of political ideals, which can be flexible. But it is sort of the moral repudiation of the teachings of the gospel. And I feel like there are a lot of people who understand that all of these churches have a, allowed themselves to be so twisted that they are now actually just existing in a state of constant sin. And like, I feel like people know that. I wonder then, like, what the right way is for people who have those kind of, that conservative tradition to like process that. And this is kind of, this takes us back to your story that's coming up tomorrow and, and a lot of your writings and the cost

of these dreams and elsewhere, which is, you know, people want to have pride in their place, whether that be Texas or Mississippi or whatever, you know. And, and, you know, and, they don't have pride their ancestors, even if they're Confederate soldiers, right? And some people are able to kind of process that history and the flaws and have pride, but also recognize the failings and other people look at it and demagogues in particular look at it and say, no, this was good. Like the guys in the hoods were good. Like my ancestors were good. And it's an front to me that other people are trying to, whatever, sully their history. And, and, you know, that, like, how do you think about that, like, in the context of, of culture, tradition, sports,

politics? Well, I mean, you know, I'm reading this book right now for research on something else. I'm doing some, you know, it's hard to read. It's like, but it's spaces of hope by David Harvey. And, like, one of the things that's interesting is it's, like, written before 9-11, I think. And he predicts from a Marxist point of view everything that was going to happen in the working class of America. He just got the end result catastrophically wrong. And so, like, I say that to say that the thing you're talking about, about people trying to retain their sense of place when the thing that is most under assault by globalization is a sense of place. And so I do understand the existential crisis for people whose entire identity is rooted in a place when that is just getting hammered. I think the thing you have to do, at least the way that I think about it, and I have a lot of Confederate ancestors, for instance.

I'm a grown man and I'm capable of holding two opposing thoughts in my head at the same time. Or three even. Yeah, exactly. And so this idea that you can't be like, I admire tremendously the fact that this ancestor of mine, carved a life out of wilderness while he also had a bunch of political views that while they might have been mainstream at the time are abhorrent to me now. And so I think it is important to me as a descendant to understand the things they did and why and try to, like, not distance myself from the bad or associate myself with the good, but try to understand their decision-making matrix

as a way of navigating my own present-day life. And so... Integrated, if you will. If you will. And so, you know, I think that, like, there's a lot of... People have a lot of difficulty for reasons that I don't fully understand of holding two or three or four or five opposing views in your head at the same time and believing that some parts of all of them are true.

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Don't delay. Vote fromabroad.org. I want to connect this article that's going to go tomorrow, which did have me getting for Clint in my daughter's bed last night as I was reading it. And you kind of go back and you talk about your dad. and kind of these, you know, memories you have with him, have his go-to-Hell LSU button, but also kind of taking the back to the 1950s. And it was interesting to me if we kind of take the lens back, that this kind of moment where this kind of college football, you know,

Southern element rises. I mean, and there's elements as before. This is the 1950s when you have scholarships start. We've, you know, TV contracts start, school integration starts. And it's like the same time as the period of the barn, right? It's right as around the time that Emmett Till is dying is, what, four years before the Billy Cannon Halloween run that you write about, which is kind of the famous moment in the Ole Miss LSU rivalry. So I don't know. Like I just kind of wanted to hear you riff on like this period where all of these rivalries get birthed and how it intersects with the racial conflict in the South.

Here's the best way to do it, I think. In 1956 was the first year they were athletic scholarships, which was the started the road that would lead to NIL. In 1957, the NCAA won a lawsuit against a widow whose husband had died during a game. And out of that, they very intentionally, and then this, you can document this after the fact that they knew what they were doing, they started using the word student athlete as a way to deny that these colleges were in the business of football, which was, obviously a lie, and we're still dealing with all the repercussions of that lie today. And the rivalry was born very much in a moment like this one where traditionalists were hand-wringing about what was happening to their game. And, you know, and so 1956 is when athletic scholarships are first offered, which is a move to professionalization. Ninety-six is when Sugar Bowl integrates,

which the governor of Georgia called a southern apocalypse. And so, I mean, if you want to go like way in the weeds, go back to sort of this idea of the new post-World War II, Bretton Woods, American economy is the first time that America wasn't futile, you know, that like we're going to try to sort of sit atop these global markets, which means we need to run a meritocracy. So it's not an accident that the move to commercialize and professionalize the game happens at the exact same moment as the move to integrate because these things are on a collision course, because you can't have feudal football if you're also saying

we want the best players, we want the best game. And that's natural. We went through the phases of capitalism. We had the capitalism just for the whites that are running the game and not for the players who only got the scholarships for a while. And now eventually move on to the capitalism where the players are able to get compensated

for the work that they're providing. And now we may be moving into kind of the declining capitalism period. I mean, from neoliberalism to neo-conservatism. You know, I mean, it's like, But from the invention of athletic scholarships in 1956, by the way, I think Princeton won a national championship in 50 or 51 were contending. So the Ivy League didn't get rid of athletic scholarships. The Ivy League just chose to stay with the status quo and step away from big time football. I mean, there's an epoch that goes from 1956 to NIL. And so a lot of people look at the NIL as the beginning of a process, but it's actually the end of a very long process. process. And so, I mean, you know, I would say to college presidents who were hand-wringing now, if you didn't want to be in the business of professional sports, then you shouldn't

have gotten in the business of professional schools. And then we wouldn't have had to deal with Ted Cruz being on college game day. You're going to be a big upgrade over him on this weekend show. The other guy you write about in this story is Billy Cannon, who's the Heisman trophy winner, wins in 59. Ole Miss, the classic Ole Miss LSU game. They play his touchdown run at the beginning of every LSU game still in 2026. He ends up doing like a lot of the athletes you write about after the end of their career going through existential crises, gets in trouble, comes out the other side, ends up working at Angola. And he kind of went and met with his family. Just talk about that kind of arc a little bit. And then I've got a follow up for

you on Angola. So Billy Cannon, he went to prison for counterfeiting in the 80s. And he lost his dental license. And so the only place he could practice was Angola. And he went down there first as the dentist. And then he just re, he overhauled their medical system. And all of it was rooted in a deep sense of fundamental fairness. I mean, one of the things his daughter Bunny says is that he was really drawn to people who'd been thrown away. And he developed these long relationships with people who worked at Angola, with people who were doing life at Angola. I mean, his trustee in the medical office was a guy, Mr. Hall, who was doing a life sentence. And then when Billy died, his family found this 20-plus page letter he'd written to the Louisiana Parole Board on behalf of

Mr. Hall, basically making the case that he be released. And so the family mailed that letter posthumously, and Mr. Hall was released. You know, so Billy Cannon is very famous for what he did as a young man and for how that fame sort of the mask eats the face like John Updike says, how that fame brought him down. And what's so interesting is that outside of the scrutiny of fame and away from his legend, he had this whole other third act rooted in service and love. You know, I was at the Angola Prison Rodeo with him one time and we were standing around in some LSU. Will you tell people what the Angola Prison Rodeo is if they don't know? it's the closest you're ever going to get to Caesar, man.

It's wild. They have a rodeo where they have inmates of the rodeo cowboys. You can go on YouTube and find this thing. The day I was there, it's called inmate poker. And they have to hold a, I think it's a fake hand of cards, but at a wooden table sitting on metal folding chairs. And they just release a fucking bull into the ring. And whoever flinches last wins.

And, you know, you're sitting up there and people are eating Frito chili pies or you're waiting for seat. It's really nuts. And so I was there to see Dr. Cannon, and this LSU fan spots him and comes up to him and says, are you Billy Cannon? And Billy Cannon, who had incredible comedic timing, just paused and said, well, I'm what's left of it.

And I just thought that, like, he was so aware of the cost of fame and of mythology. He really jumped my ass one time saying, you guys at ESPN have got to leave Leonard Furnett alone. You don't understand the damage you're doing by expecting him to be this thing. And I just, Billy could be gruff. Yeah, like, Billy could be really gruff. But, you know, I knew him at the end of his life and really liked it. Yeah, that story made me a little melancholy because it's this great personal triumph,

but like within this system that is still just so fucked. And it's just like, you know, the Angola thing has been on my mind a lot recently. because the people that run it, this prison rodeo is still happening. Like, I got invited to it when I moved here. And I was kind of like, wait a minute. I thought that was like a thing in the 80s. But like it's, it's unbelievable. It's so happening.

The people that run it are now the same people that are opening up this like women and child immigrant detention center up in Alexandria, you know? And it's like these part of structures that like he was trying to work within to try to improve himself ain't gotten much better. Well, I mean, have you ever been out there? I refused to go. I was invited, but I just, I couldn't do it. I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Drive out there one time because when you see where it is, they don't even need walls. It's in a bend in the Mississippi River. And, I mean, it's really futile. I'm going to end with the rivalry in the game on Saturday. But just talk to me about your dad. I mean, you started it with them. I don't know how many other sons were like to this. My father, who I was very close to and adore, was a,

So small town country lawyer and political fundraiser, he loved Ole Miss football, man. And it was his thing. And when he died, I mean, I've told this story for years, like that I buried him with the go-to-heel LSU button. And I was sort of writing that starting a couple of weeks ago, months ago. And I realized to my horror that when I actually... got into the memory, he always had two buttons in this drawer. And one of them said go to hell LSU, and the other one said Archie's Army. And he sort of alternated between me. He mostly wore the go to hell LSU. But I realize in this panic, man, I would have passed a lot of detector tests that

I buried in with the go to hell LSU button. Like I was so sure of it. And then when I actually got into the memory and had to be rigorous with it, I realized that I remember standing in front of the drawer, and I remember having the internal debate about maybe it was a bad idea to have the word hell buried someone forever, and I don't remember which one I picked. And so the whole story that follows is about what happens when you inherit love and hate, but not the reasons. I mean, it's sort of like Bodriardian almost, because like we're copies without an original. But, you know, It is that idea that what happens when we retain all of the rituals but had totally lost the reasons why we do them. And that feels applicable in Ole Miss LSU and it feels applicable in the country of arch.

And I feel like it's applicable in that question that I tried to get to you earlier about like how you integrate, you know, the bad facts and the good is just like you're you also rewriting with this and your memories of being with him. grove and it's like you have a lot of the feelings and the spirit of what it was like to be with him and those that love is there like the details start to get washed away you know and you're left with a feeling and there's something almost beautiful about that but also really dangerous because it is easier to change your opinion about facts than to give away a feeling that has been stripped from the facts and so people will defend those feelings to the death you know i'm willing to entertain almost any conversation about sort of, you know, my dad's political fundraising. He's got this great story one time.

I'm going to mess it up a little, but he needed to raise a whole bunch of money for, I think, John Glenn to, like, qualify for federal matching funds or something. And he went to Senator Eastland's house, speaking of, you know, the good and the bad. Racist. Yeah, exactly. Dude. The senator made, like, a couple of phone calls. And then my dad said, we just got a glass of bourbon.

and we sat on his porch and Dodsville and watched one pickup truck after another pull out and drive these checks off. And he was just like, oh, my God. You know, this is the 80s in the end of something. But, you know, when you start talking about the way I feel about him, I can get really, really defensive. And I think that's instructive, both in terms of ourself and when we're trying to make a convincing political argument. I mean, you know, when I'm on my high horse about the Democratic's failure a lot. is to chop into people on the white papers instead of at their gut. And also, like, all political beliefs are based on feelings, not facts.

And it seems like somewhere along the way we lost the desire to have and win an argument, and then we lost the ability, and then we lost even the memory of why that was important to begin with. And so a lot of that is, you know, to go back to the sort of Bodriardian fever dream, I mean, it's like we are simulaccharine simulations. more than we are sort of people living out our deepest beliefs. I find it really frustrating and scary. Like, you know, like, fundamentally politics is about making an argument to someone else about why your idea is better than their idea.

And if you're not engaged as a political being in that, then you're not really doing anything, but just shouting into the wind. One of those other feelings people to have this weekend is hate. Your 13-year-old cousin broke the TV, punching at Lane Kiffin, I read. We're thinking Lane might have to come out in the Pope Mobile, you know, in Devatt Hemingway in case people start throwing whiskey bottles at them. What's the level of hate? What's the hate rate show for this weekend?

It's pretty strong. And I hope we don't show our ass. I hope we boo and we don't throw anything. You know, he could have handled it better. But like all of us have taken a better, more high-paying job, right? Yeah. And the system is fucked, by the way. College football should not have, there should not be a time to do this in the middle of the season, right?

Like, they created this, the fucked system also. He didn't handle it well, but it was like he couldn't have waited until the end of the season. He would have rather waited to the end of the season. He wanted to coach the team, you know? So I totally agree with that. And I feel like we are blaming him for structural problems. I mean, there's a, you can make a case that he's the most honest man in college football because he's the only one to admit that coaches aren't leaders of,

men, they're just playing the piano in a whorehouse. And, you know, that his job is to dial up touchdowns. That's it. And so on some level, he's the only honest man in college football who's just saying, they pay me to score touchdowns. And so, like, I have a lot of, you know, I'm not trafficking as much in the lane hate despite the fact that I'm going to be on game day one and it's up pretty good. You know, I think it's really complicated.

I don't think he handled it well. I think he put his own career over a once in a lifetime season and then didn't want to own that. But just stand up and say, I care more about my next job than I do about any of you. And I think people would have handled it better being talked to like adults. But this idea that he doesn't seem to understand that a place like Ole Miss, we get a 1951, we get a 1962, we get a 2014. Like these are, I'm talking like three or four seasons in my lifetime and I'm 50 years old. And he was incredibly casual with something that didn't mean ship to him, but is very, very precious to us. And so I think a lot of the beef is rooted in that.

And I also think that some of it is self-loathing because as mad as we are, I think everybody instinctively understands that we will forget this, just as everybody forgot in 1956, how scholarships were going to ruin college football. And our rage will dissipate and it will just get sort of subsumed into the collective Borg of Ole Miss LSU. And we will have this hatred for something with no real recollection of why that is at all. And so I think some of the anger at Lane is the understanding that as mad as we are, nobody is going to be able to tell you the specifics of this in 10 years. And that's really frustrated. Well, I hope he's not the only honest man in sports.

I hope he's a liar and a gamesman because the injury. report came out last night and the quarterback's doubtful. And there's a lot of discussion about whether that's Lane being Lane and playing games or whether the quarterback's actually hurt Sam Levitt for LSU. So I'm nervous about it. Look, I would never, ever, ever cheer for another human being to be interested. But I guess I would say that Jesus says forgive, but he didn't say anything about forgetting. Maybe some karma. Lane karma is manifesting in Sam Levitt's right shoulder right now. All right, last thing for you. True South is a food show. We're going on tour at the Bullwark.

Thebork.com slash events get tickets. There are only like 30 seats left for the Columbia, South Carolina events. If you want to come to Columbia on a Friday night, hang out with us, get your tickets. We're going to Dayton Springfield, Charlotte, Columbia, Atlanta. Give us a food wreck somewhere on the tour.

Well, look, you got to go to the Pine Club in Dayton, Ohio. Okay. It's great. Oh, there's that Steakhouse in Charlotte that's like beefing something, but it's an old school great. You can just Google Old School Charlotte Steakhouse. There's Brooks Brothers sandwiches in Charlotte that used to, it is outside of an old textile mill that is now aloft, but the old bunker of a business is still there. Hamburgers and hot dogs and stuff.

That place is great. Columbia, South Carolina, not my favorite, but, you know, I do like the Groucho sandwiches. It's not your favorite in South Carolina? You know, I like Greenville. I like Greenville. I like upstate South Carolina. It's all right. I like cola. I can be the cola representative on here. I'll come up with it.

See, that's perfect. And then what are the, what else did you say? Atlanta is our final stop. So we have an Atlanta episode on the coming season of two south about Buford Highway and a Havana sandwich shop. Man, you should definitely 100% go there. It's funny. You know, it's sort of like the idea of like how bad does a person have to be before you won't consume their art. The lady who the lady who owns. Kanye finally crossed over recently, but it's tough. I have a high tolerance, but, you know. Well, like all of us who won't listen to remix to Ignition, but still listen to Billy Jane, have some explaining to do.

I'm on the other side of that one, but, you know, okay, whatever. Oh, but like the lady who owns bones has deeply questionable politics, but that's a great steak. So I sort of have to hold my nose and go in there. I don't want a shit-talkie place in my hometown, but it has cost me a soft shell crab po-boy here. New Orleans because of the pictures they got at the front desk when you walk in. I just can't do it anymore. But, you know, that happened.

I hate to ask what place. Do I know it? I won't give the bad place. Sathers I go to now. I've replaced it with Sethers. I won't tell you the one that I had to cut because that's rude. It is rude. Well, my mom also said, if you know, if you don't have anything nice to say,

don't say anything at all. And by the way, New Orleans po-boy nice thing I dream about is the R&O special at R&O. That is a very, very good poebobo. board. All right, brother. Here's the thing. The other thing in your story said that the Ole Miss president, the first Ole Miss president asked the first LSU president, William Tecumseus, to spare Ole Miss when he was burning the South. I can't promise you will show the same restraint this weekend, but I appreciate you for coming on the show. Good luck out there. Thank you so much. We're only interested in you burning your livers.

Okay, we'll be doing that. Go Tigers. Thank you, Wright Thompson. Come back soon, brother. Hadi, toddy, see you. Go get his books. Man, thanks so much to write Thompson for squeezing us in. He's got a big weekend. You can catch him on Game Day on Saturday. And thanks to Jesse Larkela continue. We've got the great feedback on kind of the younger Democratic Strategist series. So we'll keep that up in the coming weeks between now and the midterms. Appreciate you all very much.

We have an old friend on tomorrow. Looking forward to it. See you all then. Peace. All my powers of expression. I thought a suicide. Could never do your justice in reasonable. Only one thing.

All stayed in Mississippi, they too. The Bullwork Daily is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, Associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Dante DeChico and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.