The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - Bitcoin Loans, Coinbase Hacks, Katie Martin is a Moron | CBP 215 Pt 1

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

FRIENDS AND ENEMIESIn this episode of The CBP, we dive into the alarming state of Canadian real estate, where many homeowners are finding themselves underwater with their mortgages. Gregor Robertson and Mark Carney discussed the downward trend of Canadian home values. Meanwhile, Jack Mallers isn't loaning out your Bitcoin, a stark contrast to the traditional financial systems. As property values plummet, the real estate market in Canada is on the brink of a housing crisis. With affordable housing becoming a distant dream, we examine the housing statistics and the looming real estate crash. Katie Martin and Michael Saylor also weighed in on Bitcoin during the week as well. Amidst the chaos, a recent Coinbase data breach has raised concerns about the security of your Bitcoin. Tune in to find out more.#Bitcoin #Carney #RealEstate #BTC #investing #CanadianMarkets #CanadianPoliticsJoin us for some QUALITY Bitcoin and economics talk, with a Canadian focus, every Monday at 7 PM EST. As always, none of the info is financial advice. Website: ⁠www.CanadianBitcoiners.com⁠Discord:   / discord   A part of the CBP Media Network: ⁠www.twitter.com/CBPMediaNetworkThis show is sponsored by: easyDNS - ⁠⁠www.easydns.com⁠⁠ EasyDNS is the best spot for Anycast DNS, domain name registrations, web and email services. They are fast, reliable and privacy focused. With DomainSure and EasyMail, you'll sleep soundly knowing your domain, email and information are private and protected. You can even pay for your services with Bitcoin! Apply coupon code 'CBPMEDIA' for 50% off initial purchaseBull Bitcoin - ⁠⁠https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/cbp⁠⁠ The CBP recommends Bull Bitcoin for all your BTC needs. There's never been a quicker, simpler, way to acquire Bitcoin. Use the link above for 25% off fees FOR LIFE, and start stacking today.

a threat. And one of the things that can't be attacked is your self custody Bitcoin. And one of the things that can be attacked is the ETF. Can't be exposed to that. That's my view. It's not a good idea. And by the way, that'll hit MSTR too. It'll probably get other stuff as well. Friends and enemies. Welcome back Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. Friends and enemies. Welcome to the CBP. Want to be better and formless. Listen to Len and Joey. Spots are taking care of right off the top Oh Bitcoin and easy DNS the media is feeding the slop. It doesn't matter what topics discussed quality entertainment and information You can trust

Information you can trust send the guys some value boost them them with some sats. Bitcoin is a scarcity asset. I mean, it's just a fact. Geopolitical national down to the local. Friends and enemies. How great was that? Did you make that or was that somebody that made it worse? Our friend, Deez laughs, uh, who's been watching the show for some time. I take it anyway, uh, made that for us us, unsolicited, kind of unsolicited.

He made us, or he did a couple of songs where he sampled stuff that we said on the show. And I told him, it'd be really nice to have a theme song for the show. And he made one. And he offered to do it for our friendship. And I ended up sending him a couple hundred bucks for his efforts out of the show coffers. But how great is that? You like that intro? I really like that. I made the video today in Canva.

I mean, like I told Deezlaps, my video editing skills are a work in progress, but I think that's really cool. I really like that. I like the beginning though that you're talking you're giving a talk we're talking about ETFs I Love it. I read this is what we should be talking about Doing it's not just saying it we got a fucking do it Good to see a happy long weekend, I guess ended a long weekend. What did you get up to?

Oh, I mowed the lawn, did a bunch of loads of laundry. Just a lot of domestic chores over here. It was good to get them out of the way. It was a beautiful day. It's sunny, but I wish it was a little bit warmer. How about you? I cut my lawn, cut my father-in-law's lawn, laundry. Yeah, it looks like we're in the same boat. Yeah. I mean, it's the domestic dream, right? I think this is what people are after. It's funny. We talk all the time about how the Canadian dream is being taken away. I don't ever think I said to myself

growing up, I can't wait to spend my holiday Monday cutting lawns. I took my little one to fireworks yesterday in Dundas, which was kind of funny. Lots of kids there. Good times. We didn't stay for the actual show. It's a little past your bedtime, but we saw some friends with their little kids. Any enemies? No enemies there. It's just, you know what? I kind of was thinking about this a little bit today, just reflecting on the last year,

two years. My life has changed quite a bit and you don't really think about the changes as they're happening. They're kind of minor. And then obviously when I had my daughter, things started to change a little faster and now they've really just completely, it's a completely different lifestyle than I was living four years ago, certainly 10 years ago. And I got to say, for all the guys out there, I mean, I'm going to preach a little bit here.

For all the guys out there who think that being happy is like heading to bars and chasing pussy all the time. There's a time and a place for that, but I will tell you that if you're with a good woman and you're worried about settling down because you don't want to miss out on the good times you've been having, you cannot do it fast enough, honestly. Your life will get better, things will get easier, and you'll find that this is the way you are meant to live, man.

It's not... It really depends though. This is not a one size fit all approach. Sometimes people just want to do some things. Even at an advanced age, they may still want to continually doing stuff what they were doing at a young age. Yeah. All the more power to them.

Like whatever turns their crank, go ahead and do it. As long as it's not harming anybody else, I don't give a fuck. No, it's not that I care. I'm don't give a fuck. No, I don't. It's not that I care. I'm just saying, you know, don't be afraid to take the jump. Don't worry about missing out or whatever. You may find that you're better off. Anyway, I mean, we could talk about that if we want, but I don't think we want to hear us talk about that. We got some usual. Oh my God, we got so much to talk about the sponsors, but we should talk about the sponsors. Yeah. Easy DNS. Mark is our friend, not our enemy.

Best place for you to register a domain. Mark is your friendly neighborhood registrar, as he likes to say. Len, they got so much going on in EasyDNS now. Mark tells us from time to time that he's added a new service, added a new suite of available goodies there for people who are using EasyDNS. Easy Mail is the latest. Make sure that your emails are safe, secure, not stolen, not hijacked, not any of these things.

More important than ever these days, obviously with the Coinbase breach. Don't forget about DomainSure, making sure that your domains are protected. Up to date, secure, all these things. There's tons of people gunning for your info and gunning for the information of people who use your services or on your newsletter list or are your client, et cetera, et cetera. Mark make sure that none of that stuff happens to you. Go there, pay with Bitcoin if you like and don't forget to use the promo code CBPMedia. Get 50% off your first round of buys.

If you're a Bitcoiner, there's no better way to support businesses than paying in Bitcoin. But it's hard for me to imagine that anyone wants to do that all the same. So go there, pay with whatever you want. But yeah, Mark, obviously, big friend of the show. We were glad to have him as a partner. Who's the other sponsor? Who knows bull Bitcoin and price of Bitcoin is volatile, Joey, these days. It's very volatile. It's always one second it's going to be like 103, another second is 107. So I don't know what to do with Bitcoin except, well, for me,

I'll continually stack and bull Bitcoin gives you that opportunity to stack what some people want to sell. And bull Bitcoin gives you that opportunity to sell as well. You can do it on chain. You can do it with Lightning. Last I checked, the fees for on chain were still very, very cheap. So continually do that.

But that's just my opinion. do whatever the heck you want to do But the good thing about bull bitcoin we'll talk about this more in depth is number one being non-custodial nature They don't hold on to your bitcoin number two. Everything is done within house This is a really good thing and i'll talk about that more in depth But you could also pay off your bills with bitcoin. There's a recent new Offering with bitcoin in the united States and it's just showing off It's a medium of exchange. So you might as well use your Bitcoin to start paying off stuff You could use your Bitcoin through bitcoins bull bitcoins bill service to pay your bills like an outstanding credit card or whatever

You could do that You also buy gift cards with your Bitcoin and you could use bull Bitcoin to facilitate that and so like that you can start Using your Bitcoin indirectly in the real world not many opportunities to do that. And so like that, you can start using your Bitcoin indirectly in the real world. Not many opportunities to do that right now, but every day seems to be more and more of an, we have choices with Bitcoin, we have choices and let's start using it as a medium of exchange. I for one am not, and I'm gonna start trying

to start doing it a little bit more moving forward. So check out Bull Bitcoin if you haven't yet opened an account, refer a link below and it will help us out tremendously if you do that Outstanding outstanding boosts. Shall we you know what boost I fucked up because I tried to get it today Yeah, for whatever reason the app wasn't able to get me the boost. I'm just so well So I'm sorry whatever boost came in this past week. I can't read them I normally try to get them on either Sunday or Monday, but it was a long weekend, so I forgot the fuck,

I'm not working Monday, I'll try to get out of Monday, but it didn't work, so. Sorry about that. It's all good, buddy. Housekeeping, last week, Shay and you had a nice conversation through some technical issues. Oh, we had some technical issues. Through some internet difficulties, yeah,

but a good conversation, all the same. We appreciate him coming on, and we appreciate Pablo for putting us in touch with him. Listen to that one if you haven't already. This week, Len, Wednesday, Joe Barbudo, the economic long wave making his CBP return. It's going to be hard to find a guy who's been more right than him over the last two or three years. And we're going to talk about where we are in the long wave. We'll talk about some new policy. We'll talk about the deflation, the asset deflation that's happening all over the world, you know, where Canada is, what we've got coming for us. And I will note that

although we don't have a guest booked after Joe, I am talking to Madex, I am talking to the Bugle, and I think I may also reach out to Julian Figueroa. The bugle guys are going to do the show. Maydak is also going to do the show. But next week, Glenn, you know what next week is. So it's hard to book a guest for next week is the Vegas conference. Everyone's going to the conference. So, yeah, so maybe, you know, who knows?

Maybe we'll do a crowd Q&A. Maybe we'll do a home team, you and me for half an hour. I don't know, but got to see if I can get somebody to come on. The Vegas conference is absorbing tons of our normal sort of roster of guests. So TBD, but look forward to those shows in the future. And obviously Joe this week on Wednesday is going to be a banger. You don't want to miss that. He's one of the brightest guys around and we're talking to him. Well, that's the same Italian Canadian Bitcoiners pod There's the Italian Bitcoin podcast. There actually is one Joey and a couple of guys

Guy brush three wood and Ricky they do that show actually It's the Ricky's the big main guy and Guy brushes the just tag along it seems so maybe we'll try snagging the come on I don't think they're going to fucking to Nashville next week Who the fuck wants to go there to watch Vegas? Not Nashville. Whatever the Vegas. Whatever. The beautiful thing is there was some sort of crypto conference that took place

this past week in Toronto, and we had one friend of the show went there and just kind of showed off that there's some shit coins inside over there. Good stuff. Yeah, I don't want to say too much, but I'll leave it at that. The pictures were great. Yeah. Same thing. And I hope the same type of treatment is going to be done to the conference in Las Vegas. Yeah, I agree.

I agree. Okay. Well, let's let's get started. That's the shortest intro we've ever had. We can actually talk about Bitcoin. I don't want to just call you out just in case. I don't. I do, but I don't, so I'll leave it at that. So I'm not calling you in a good way, calling you out.

So yeah. Joey, we have a lot to talk about today. Big week. Yeah. So you know what? I'm going to leave it up to you. Leave it up to the people out there. Like, what do you want to do? Do you want to do more Bitcoin stuff this week? Do you want to do more notable stuff this week? I mean there's some good notables too, right? The Carney cabinet's a good one. Stephen Gilbo talking about all this no pipeline stuff. I'm just gonna look through the stories here. Len sends me the stories on Sunday and I'm just gonna make a quick snap decision here. The Katie Martin story is absolutely fantastic too. Why don't we leave it up to the people in the chat? What do you want to hear? And we'll just do it. And you don't have to say right now, but somewhere along the lines they can say you want to hear more Bitcoin stuff. They want to hear more. Yeah. And we'll just go from there. I'll just share.

Sure. Yeah. We'll see as we get closer to the hour here, where we go at seven. Yeah. Maybe we'll just take an executive decision. You and I to do whatever we want to our show. Exactly right. Like Coinbase is the number one discussion. Let's do it. Let's do it. The biggest news, at least I think the biggest. My largest equity holding Coinbase.

Is that, wait, fuck off. Is that really the case? Thank you. It's not the case. I continually DCA till Joy because you're doing a good thing. Anyway, they are the one of the largest crypto exchanges in the world and they announced they suffered a data breach. We'll be talking about this more in depth. I guess the Maxis of easy. Yeah. And they disclosed this data on May 15th and the data breach was result

of social engineering attack. And it looks like the people that fucked up were the customer support agents and they were overseas folks. So they're in India. It looks like they're in India. Like that's what everyone on Twitter is saying. Yeah, exactly. That's what's being reported.

It's a million folks out there. So it's all the more reason why you should look at an exchange like Bull Bitcoin. I don't want to pump their bags, but the reality is those guys do all their shit in house, including creating memes. And so because they're not outsourcing anything, they were able to control their stuff, Coinbase, they lost that control when it started outsourcing all the start this garbage. So some of the overseas support agents, they misused their powers to gain access

to Coinbase internal customer support system, and they got access to some of the user data. And the data stolen is all the regular stuff and more that we talk about an access of easy joy, we got like names, telephone numbers, addresses, email address, but then it goes a little bit further last four digits of the social security numbers, no big deal bank account. Is that important stuff? Any of that? Well, maybe we'll see because images to IDs that they use to KYC themselves, account

balances, transaction history. So now that could be really fucking bad. You know, it's, I would say it's good news for Coinbase because their internal documents related to Coinbase operations weren't taken, but a few corporate documents were stolen just like trading materials. So with respect to that, Coinbase is their business remains intact and they're okay. But with this, with this information, if somebody gets access to it, they could create a profile on an individual on who uses Coinbase. So with all that taken into context, what is the plan moving forward? Well initially they tried to extort 20 million dollars from Coinbase

and Coinbase is saying nah nah and they're playing hardball and in the end you know let's be honest it's just our customers who got fucked so why pay 20 million dollars of corporate money when it's just a cut? So, you know, just offer those customers out there one free year of credit monitoring services and maybe even throw in the next airdrop of shit. When's it come out? Maybe that what's one way. Apparently they have to pay up up to $400 million for this. It's going to say it's not going to be cheap. Yes. I can be.

No, no, no. And Coinbase to their credit, they reacted. After this, they decided to stop the employment of these overseas individuals, those compromised support agents too. No, that's a barn has left the, sorry, the horses left the barn, so might as well close the door now. And they also issued a $20 million bounty leading to the arrest of those individuals. And they notified those customers that were impacted and from the reports are saying it's less than 1% of users around 100,000 Coinbase users may have been impacted but people out there are suspecting this number is very very low being reported very low on purpose.

People on X are saying that they know a number of people that use Coinbase and all of them seems to have given some communication from Coinbase that they've been infiltrated. So it looks like that 1%. I don't know if it's truthful. It's probably much higher. And, you know, with respect to Coinbase, at least they have seen the light, you know, they got rid of those Peters out there that have strong Indian accents.

And now they're just gonna be doing the duck cleaning services. No longer are they gonna be the coin-based technical support. So with respect to it though, thankfully the attack is limited in scope. And I'm saying this, limited, we'll use air codes here because those people that were impacted, a lot of information was taken.

But this could have been even a heck of a lot more worse than what it is right now. Like imagine if the customer's keys were stolen. That wasn't the case. Imagine if the keys holding on to corporate Bitcoin was taken. Yeah, that's, that's a big one, right? That's a big one. A lot of treasury season coin base to do custody.

Yeah. Interesting, right? Right. That's the honeypot out there. I would imagine there has been and will continue to be attacks to try to get that. And this could have been an absolute nightmare. If it was the absolute worst case scenario, this would have taken down Coinbase. But I suspect what we see now are signs of things that will come in the future.

If you think Coinbase is this fortress that is impenetrable. No, everything can be fucking attacked. And I think it's just a matter of time. In the end, all you could do really is use a reputable exchange. Find one that values your data, your privacy. They don't outsource shit. They not custodial nature is is really good Bitcoin focus as well like pick and choose whichever there's Well Bitcoin is one but there's others out there try to do do your research pick the right exchange

Don't deal with this garbage like coinbase. They do with a lot of shit coins They outsource a lot of garbage and here you are if you were a customer Your information is out there. Good luck. I If you were a customer, your information is out there. Good luck. I can't hear you, Joe. You're muted, buddy. Or maybe I'm muted. Hang on.

I'm going to play some. Is it my side or yours? Let me just play a random video. So ladies and gentlemen, who could we hear? You or me? Yeah, mine is fine. I can't, mine is clear. So Joey, you're, oh man, Joey's muted. So yeah, he'll be back. He'll be, looks like he's giving us. Yeah, sorry. Sorry. My mistake.

You're back. Yep. Yeah, something happened there. I don't know what happened, but anyway, listen. So the thing that I will say is I didn't get a notification that was breached. Okay. That's one thing I looked for and tried to find like how they were handling this. I saw a few of the customer service emails that went out pretty lackluster, honestly, I thought. But I think the more important thing, at least as far as I'm concerned, is that they are quote unquote taking responsibility and paying out people who were pwn were pwned like you said to the tune of 400 million

That's a lot of money. That's that's the first thing. I like the thing I don't like Len is that there's like now I'm getting they say that I wasn't breached, but I'm getting tons of phone calls Steady from all sorts of people. I just got a text message from some number. didn't recognize saying that my Coinbase, what did it say? I probably deleted the message already, but it basically said like your Coinbase account was just trying to log in. Someone just tried to log in your Coinbase account, blah, blah, blah. You should check this out. Call this number. If you originated this or if you didn't originate this attempt, you know the deal. So they're telling you that you weren't hacked, like you said, and that number that they're reporting

is very low, if I had to guess. The other thing for me that's important to remember here is that, like you mentioned, Coinbase, like Coinbase's probably custody is close to like fortress strength, fine. Even if you believe that, they're only as strong as their weakest link. And you see that with stuff like this. You know, you're going to these foreign

call centers, they're socially engineered by somebody and before you know it, they have your phone number, your social insurance number, your address, all these different things, you know. I'll note here that this is why it's so important not to keep your Bitcoin. What? What's wrong? You froze. I don't know if it was me freezing. I don't know. I look fine. But the thing I would say is that it's important not to keep your Bitcoin at your residential

address. So if you live at some apartment or you have like one property that you reside at, you shouldn't be keeping your keys and all your stuff there. You should not be doing that. The reason for that is because if you end up in a situation where your address gets leaked, there will be a time when Bitcoin is worth enough money that the risk incurred by someone who's coming to wrench you is worth the chance they're taking. And if you don't think that that's a problem and you think that you know you're armed at your house you're gonna fight off an intruder like fine fine but the better move is to just not keep your keys and

everything in one place. There's services with which you can do this. I'm not necessarily endorsing any of these services, but there are services out there that will do multi-sig for you. I think there's a place for those and it seems to me Len, like the more people use these big exchanges and have their address leaked, have their totals leaked, have their whatever leaked, that maybe these services grow in terms of their user base, it becomes another honeypot in my opinion, at some level, but that's a story for another day. I just don't think that people should be taking this lightly. What is price there? 105 on Bitcoin, USD? That's quite a bit. Let's say you're one of

these people with like 50 Bitcoin, right? Came around in 2013 or 14 and you got 50 Bitcoin. Someone has your address now because you used Coinbase once upon a time. Like we all did, by the way. What is the thing stopping them from coming to your house now? What is the thing stopping them? Three or four people coming to your house. If you got 50 Bitcoin, if someone can see on your Coinbase account in your transaction history that you've accumulated 50 Bitcoin through Coinbase 10 years ago or 15 years ago, whatever 12 years ago, and now you like there's no, you know, evidence that you've sold or whatever. They'll come to you. Coinbase should be on the hook for a lot more than 400 million in my opinion.

And it's people safety now. You might be talking about some OGs needing to move. You've heard stories now, I think Ben actually tweeted out that he got a phone call like a threat of violence or whatever. So these guys are not fucking around. It's a lot of money sitting out there in Bitcoin, you know, it's a trillion and change and market cap and a lot of those coins are, they've been dormant for a long time. And if you're a Coinbase user from the old days, a lot of you probably are, we are for sure. Your address is out there. I'm fortunate I've moved since my Coinbase days twice, but all said, that's still that information I want to be out there and

you shouldn't want it either. And I hope Coinbase is taking a task for this by somebody though I don't see that happening. Certainly not the US legal system. I don't think they're gonna pursue this. Well, the obligations end at them just making their customers whole. They shouldn't though. Because as soon as someone is hurt or kidnapped or whatever, um, like at that, at that point you have to, you have to at least entertain. I would guess the Coinbase legal team is considering these things right now. By doing so that's an admission though.

And I think that's a slippery slope for that. I'm with you. Yeah. To minimize the amount of damages they have to pay, they just have to really make their customers whole and maybe provide a little bit of a carrot on top of that. And other than that. Credit monitoring services or something.

Right, something like that. It's just something so minimalistic that it's not gonna impact the bottom line. But it will be enough to appease lawyers and the legal system to say, look, we've done our job and we've done a little bit more anything beyond that Really should be done But I think it puts them in a position that they would have to really pay out and it may price

Uh put or set of precedents moving forward then um something else happens again, then they'll have to Do what they did this time around in terms of extra and As a business whatever like all I say is just use a better exchange there's better exchanges out there Coinbase they're notorious notoriously aligned with shitcoins they right like there's a lot of shit this is and this is why like yeah and this is why I'll just add to that. Coinbase is obviously publicly traded and you know, MAU or DAU, like the active user count, is what they really care about and it's what investors seem to care about in a lot of the cases. So you know, Coinbase,

it's worth Coinbase's time from an equity valuation standpoint to really ramp up the number of people they have in their database and ramp up the number of people they can say are active on their platform every day. And those people, Len, they often don't have the means. Think about the person who gambles on shitcoins. Does that guy have the means to protect himself if something happens at his home address? Probably not. Does that guy have the bank account to stomach a loss,

even if it's just short term, while Coinbase decides how they're going to reimburse those accounts? Probably not. You're looking at a lot of pain for these guys. And one of the things we haven't talked about a lot on the show in the last year, because we've just been honestly winning basically at every turn, is how many people will this turn off from Bitcoin? Whether we like it or not, to the normie Coinbase is still synonymous with Bitcoin, and they shouldn't be, but this is sort of

the way it is. If this turns more and more people off to Bitcoin, it's I think a net negative. You want people coming into this space. Coinbase for all its faults is still probably top of funnel for a lot of people, especially in the States. So you're damaging what could have been a solid top of funnel company for a lot of people because they will affiliate this with a scam now. When you search for Coinbase on Google, this will probably come up for at least the medium term. It'll be one of the first results, right? You know, big hack, big, big social engineering nightmare, whatever they want to call it. It's not good. None of this is good.

It was direction of like ETFs and stuff. Well, unfortunately, it does that. Yeah, I mean, we, we, yeah, we just gave me the ETFs and stuff. Unfortunately, it does that. Yeah. I mean, we disagree on the ETFs overall. But yeah, the custody is done by somebody. They take care of, they manage it all. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it's so beautiful. Unless you have to do, you just have to just give them your money. It's just number go up, right? Yeah. No custody, no nothing, no sovereignty. The other thing too is like another positive. If this had happened three years ago, what would the price of Bitcoin have been? You know, what would the drop have been on news? The Coinbase was, you know,

hacked. I keep saying hacked. I'm using that term sort of proverbially here, but hacked to the tune of $400 million. Like what would the price of Bitcoin would have dropped? What? 20% 30% more. I'm surprised it was resilient. It did drop a little bit, but not probably not on that news, though. You know, I think it was it's understated. There's remember you're saying one percent of the I know. But that 400 million numbers not going to be understated. That's going to have to be reported on some SEC.

That is the next future in the future. They're saying that it's being reported to 180 to 400 million. So that's out there in a wild. Yes, it's just whatever it just it seems to the with respect to the price of Bitcoin that's deflected it and it hasn't really impacted it. Also, if this happened in 2022, Oh God, imagine during the chaos that would have just fucking driven distant to four digits. I agree we're getting dangerously close

when you coin basically public 21. When did Coinbase go public? 21? So they go public in 21 and a year later they lose $400 million in user funds at an outsourced call center. Like you couldn't write a better story in terms of down talking and downplaying the significance of Bitcoin in the financial system, right? But now it's, you know, to Bitcoin's credit

and to the community's credit, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Coinbase is no longer synonymous with Bitcoin for the average person, and that's one of the reasons the price didn't drop the way that we're hypothesizing that it would have if it was two years earlier or three years earlier. That's a good sign, that's a good sign. And this is a battle test, right,

for Bitcoin stuff like this? We haven't had a good battle test in a while. Wow, we had the opera turn shit come up. Yeah, but I mean, I more mean like on the number go upside, the opera turn stuff is important to we talked about that a lot last week and week before. I agree with you there. But as far as like a like a normie world, NPC world battle test, this is one one of the first we've had in some time. And not that difficult a test, I will admit. But it's good to see that people are

realizing that Bitcoin's value doesn't come from whether or not Coinbase is secure or not. This next story is one that I think is very positive. It's steak and shake. You like this, eh? Yeah. Tell me. Yeah. Okay. So why, why do you like it? Tell me why you like it. So let me just lay what it is for people who are unaware. It's a burger joint that operates in the United States and in Europe too. For whatever reason, there's no stores in Canada. They're in Europe, but I didn't know that. Yeah, from what I read. So they are now accepting Bitcoin as payment through the Lightning Network. And this started on May 16th. So as of May 16th, just three days ago, you could go to a Steak and Shake

and pay through Lightning to purchase your meal. And people on X are showing off receipts and all this shit that they need to purchase even today. I saw another one. And yeah, just be careful though that, you know, this may not be the flex you may think it is because the IRS will be looking at this and they may want their 35 cents of capital return That hasn't been reporting your taxes. So just keep that in mind So that's essentially what it is. I also want to note that there are some stores Maybe all of them the first five customers were given a commemorative Bitcoin token a coin like a physical coin is a way to say thank you for making your purchase with Bitcoin. So what I like about this is because it's a peer-to-peer exchange. You're using Bitcoin as

money and that's really what we should be pushing for what Bitcoin is. Not just simply a store of value but it's also money that could be used to replace what we use as money and that that could really increase the case use of bitcoin and make it well the adoption increase right it's it's not just store value it's not just putting money in an etf it's not money or bitcoin companies buying bitcoin that's those are those are news they can good or bad take away what you think it is this is the shit I like. I want to see this being used as a fucking currency. And I want to see more stories like this, but it's going to be an uphill battle because the fact is deemed to be a commodity and you have that capital gains bullshit that has to be applied

when you sell Bitcoin. So it's going to make it harder to entice people to sell their Bitcoin. But when you have more and more stories like this, as a movement grows, then maybe, just maybe, it could push lawmakers into changing the existing laws and may consider Bitcoin as a currency moving forward. It may not happen overnight, but you need more of these stories to change the lawmakers' minds. Do you think, okay, I'm gonna disagree

with the last part of that. I actually don't think you need more stories like this to change lawmakers' minds. For one sort of big glaring reason, I disagree with the last part of that. spend for goods and services to improve their lives, to improve the lives of their kids, whatever. If the government continues to hold hostage all that captive wealth because of old school really tax regimes related to capital gains and trading Bitcoin or whatever they want to say, like every sell is a trade, you got to pay, every spend is a trade, you got to pay.

They can keep doing that if they want, but people will just either hold the Bitcoin and take loans against it for less value and further lever the economy, which I think now there's at least some awareness in the mainstream that this is a bad thing. So they can either do that or those Bitcoiners will just leave those jurisdictions and go to friendlier ones. There is no magic soil anywhere in the world. Canada is great because of Canadians, America is great because of Americans. If those people, the net producers and the sort of cultural guardians of those nations leave for greener pastures

because they're being treated with a friendlier hand in other jurisdictions, then America will stop being America and Canada will stop being Canada and the new Bitcoin friendly nation X or whatever that pops up will get this money, this wealth and this productivity. So I think America and I think if I look at the administration and the way they talk about Bitcoin and the way that Lutnik specifically talks about it, I get the feeling they're going to start moving toward this. They want to unlock that wealth. They want people to be using their Bitcoin, spending their Bitcoin and contributing to the GDP, as opposed to

holding it, watching the number go up, playing with their bitcoins, whatever Trump said at the conference last year. I think that there's going to be a move toward allowing for spending without burdensome, cumbersome tax laws. I think that's coming. But that aside, stake and shake accepting Bitcoin on lightning. Lightning, that's huge. I am really shocked that they set up a system. What's that? They wouldn't take on change. No, but I know they wouldn't, but I'm saying like it's, it's nice to see these guys go the extra mile as far as like accepting Bitcoin.

It's really not just, it's not just a symbolic, right? Because like you said, on chain is basically a joke for, for small transactions, but lightning takes a little bit more work, right? You got to set up some, some rails on your own and a hundred percent. They outsource this. That's fine. I don't care. I don't care if they outsourced it because what I know what I see is these guys took

it seriously enough that they wanted this to be a good experience for people who are using Bitcoin and maybe they'll benefit from it. I don't think it's going to contribute to their bottom line materially at all for the time being. But down the road, who knows? Right. We'll see. It's interesting.

Bitcoiners love supporting Bitcoin businesses. Yes. And I haven't. People will do it. I haven't heard of one story of a lightning payment not going through with respect to stick and shake I'm saying it didn't happen, but I haven't come across it It's good. So whatever they're doing how they have it set up the liquidity all that fucking shit. It's working out Well, I like I say, I think they outsourced it who's doing it

I wonder there's only so many companies that could do it at that scale Right. I wonder I would have my guess they got in Phoenix involved. That's my guess but who the fuck knows? Yeah, I'm not sure it's still I want to see more stories like this because Bitcoin in order to be In order for Bitcoin it to take over right or not take over to be adopted as the something that other just a fucking commodity that you could buy in an ETF or through Coinbase, or sorry, through MSTR or whatever.

We need more stories like this, right? But the reality is it fucking sucks right now to spend Bitcoin just because the administration burden required. How much was your buy price? When did you buy it? What was your sell price? When did you, and then you have to fucking provide this. And then who knows? The tax man may want you to provide more information for other things. And they may want

to look in to see if you made other purchases. And you're opening up a can of worms that shouldn't have been open in the first place. But you need trailblazers out there to fucking just do something. Without that, we'll just be treading water and there's going to be no change. Right? Change is only done is when people want it and when people are showing that there's a case use until somebody does it. Not to say that stake and shake is the be all and end all. It's small potatoes. If you look at even stake and shake, the number of stores that they have, it's been slowly dwindling. They've been closing operations. I don't think it's all that is successful as a- When are they gonna come a Bitcoin Treasury company

to try and survive? Is it fucking publicly traded? I don't know. I'd love to know though. It's funny, these guys are going this route. Yeah, it is. So there you go. Is it possible to become a Treasury company?

I don't know. Biglari Holdings Inc. traded on the... They're Italian? Exchange Biglardi. Sounds Italian. BBRD? No. And then BH. BH. You have mixed picks in the chat saying that the company doing the lightning management for them is Tri-Speed. So I've not heard of that company, but it's not, like you said, it's not surprising

they're outsourcing it. I still give them credit for going that road. What? They're trading at 241 USD. Time to get on board. This is rocket ship. And you know what? And like in the past five years, it's gone up from 55 bucks to where it is now.

He you know what? Maybe this is the new stock we should be purchasing. Fuck the get up here. We got to get Maybe this is the new stock we should be purchasing. Fuck the MSTR. We got to get off somewhere. Something MSTR. You know what? Let's talk about MSTR now. Oh, sure. Right? So there's some news that came out today with respect to MSTR. They didn't buy

Bitcoin. I want to talk. I don't mean they may have, I don't know. But the thing is, I found to be very interesting is this guy named Anas Hamza. OK, he filed a class loss, a class action lawsuit against Michael Saylor's strategy. Yeah, it's a bullshit suit. But so this is guy Anas, his lawsuit. He claims that MSTR has misrepresented the fundamental. I think you're misrepresenting fundamental aspects of this guy's name, I'm pretty sure. Oh, sorry, why do you think?

He's very litigious, I don't know, you're pretty brave to be doing that. And just reading the name, Mr. Anus here, he's claiming that MSTR misrepresented fundamentals, aspects with respect to Bitcoin and their investment strategy. And he's saying let's violates security laws. And others, besides Anas, could also jump on board because this is a class action lawsuit.

Right. So if you held MSTR stock between April 30th, 2024 and April 4th, 2025. That's me. That's me. You could jump on board. All you have to do you have until July 15th. All you have to do is ask the court to appoint you as the lead plaintiff for this thing So if you have any questions, I could even give you the telephone number to contact if you mean We've all call and get some information. But yeah, I found this to be very interesting pissed off about the volatility

I guess of micro strategy, but I don't know. I don't think there's gonna be much to this this guy What why did a lawyer take this? I mean class action the lawsuit that But I don't know. I don't think there's going to be much to this. This guy. What? Why did a lawyer take this? I mean, class action lawsuit that people are dumb. There's probably some people lost money on MSTR trying to have you money in MSTR for sure. I mean, I made a small fortune on MSTR. Sort of everyone else I know basically.

Yeah, I think the big thing is that the suit also claims that he's misrepresenting the profitability of the Bitcoin buys. So what is the implication there that he doesn't have the Bitcoin he says he has? Is that it? I mean, it's like impossible. The lesson here is that people want proof of reserves from these guys. I think. He says, misleading statements regarding their business operations and prospects specifically made false and misleading statements and their business operations and prospects specifically made false and misleading statements and or failed to disclose that the anticipated profitability of the company, their Bitcoin focused investment strategy and treasury operations were overstated. I mean, how?

He also talking about the volatility of Bitcoin and magnitude of losses. Yeah, that's his problem. That's it's the it's more the he's really accusing sailor of having like a character flaw, right? Like basically calling him a liar. I'm not sure that you can sue somebody for overselling a strategy. If you've ever listened to an earnings call, you know, famously Uber on a call, I think it was this year or last year, Len, they talked about how they were going to have a hard wire my computer. I'll be back in just a sec. So sure. So I'll keep talking. The thing, uh, Uber in terms of like overselling stuff and whether or not you can be sued for that Uber on an earnings call said that they were inventing a basically like a high traffic route, a repeated route

that was going to be available at certain times a day. And you just have to walk a little bit to get to a certain part of the route to get picked up. And they'll take you down the route. And you know, at the end of the route, the car will turn around and come back the other way. And like they sold this is like, I think it was called like Uber share or something like that. But really, it's just a fucking bus.

It sounds like a bus route. And I don't think Uber got sued over that. And last time I checked Uber stock prices at an all time high. So I don't think overselling something in terms of like a stock is really something you can be sued over. It's more an art form that these guys are all practicing, especially on earnings calls. Sailor more than most obviously,

but doesn't mean it's illegal, I don't think. Lentz- And Ron and Bear Stearns- Your video's locked. I can't see you. I can hear you, but your video's locked. Yeah. I'm here.

Don't worry about it. Keep talking. Maybe it'll kick back. Okay. Well, we can talk about Maulers next and it looks like strike is not doing any funny business with the bitcoin that that's what he says yeah that's what he says yeah right and so you're mentioning that's what people are going to be doing is with the lending of bitcoin rather than selling it so i suspect i i with you on this that this type of

business is going to be much more prevalent in the future because people don't want to deal with the headaches of capital gains taxes and shit like that. But with respect to this, Mallers, there was a lot of questioning with what they're going to be doing. He's saying, no, there's no funny business. It's going to be just given to their partner. Bitcoin is going to remain as collateral and not handed out. So remember, they once used strike did.

Was it Prime Trust? Yeah, I was one of their. So I'm still going to use another. Do you think that this guy, I'm not to like, again, I don't want to character assassinate Jack Mallers, but what are we talking about here with this guy at this point? Like he you know what again like where where is the delivery on all the things he's promised over the years? Are you drinking out of a clear Dixie cup like this in in this economy? You can't even afford a mug. Hey, wow, geez You know, I I couldn't find my fucking my

You just happen to have a clear Dixie cup handy. I had to get one. I have a few handy here. I decided to just look the fuck. It looks like my screen is now no longer frozen. So there you go. See, you know what? It's clear.

It's water. This is what I drink. It's. Oh, man. Anyway, listen. Well, I want to make a point on something else with Mauler's thing because he was also saying and we also talked about it, the 12% API when you lend your Bitcoin.

Yeah. So they said they're going to be addressing this because in the next little while they're going to be changing. How are they going to address it? What is the plan? They're going to lower it out. And what does that mean? You know, what does that mean?

Well, it's no longer going to be 12. It's going to be 11.99 or whatever number they provide. None of these things move independently is the thing that I would warn people. You know, like risk moves up and down with rates moving up and down. And you know, you need a certain amount of protection against it's just like the solution land honest to God is just do not take loans against your Bitcoin yet. It's not like the solution, Len, honest to God, is just do not take loans against your Bitcoin yet. It's not a mature market.

It's easy for him to charge 12% because there's not enough people competing yet. And when there's more people competing, you get a better rate. You know, that's all there is to it. Yeah, the competition makes it. Yeah. One smart fellow is saying that it's going to be a single digit. Single digit APY. Yeah, maybe.

I don't know. So you're talking a reduction of 2.1 or more. And also, remember, when you're dealing with this type of service, the volatility Bitcoin really could wreck folks. Yeah. As the value goes down, if there's a drawdown in the price of Bitcoin, you got to provide more collateral. And if you don't have that, well, you're going to get wiped out. And what are the lead in lending rates? I don't know. I'm going to look at a long time since I've looked at their product. Lettons annual rate is, oh, goodness.

What do you think it is? The way you said it. I'll say 10.5. 10.4. Fuck you. Holy fuck. Wow. Go to the track.

Yeah. Great. Great guess. That's fucking high too. Seems high to me. Great. Guess that's, that's fucking high too. It seems high to me there. And I think that's probably industry standard. And so if, but what's going to happen now with strike offering something that's going to be more competitive, letting is going to have to move their rates to for sure. I want to keep customers and there you're talking about having then competition provides better, better experience for the

customer. So this is, this is what you want to see. But in the end, I mean, OK, so I'll tell you right now, the actual rate, if I go to. Yeah. So if I went to the London website here, they have a calculator. If I send one Bitcoin, I get back fifty three, seven, fifty three, fifty three point seven K USD on a 12 month term at a 50% LTV. Obviously the starting rate is 12.4%. So high.

That's fucking high. Mauricio. The competition is coming now, right? I think all these guys are having meetings about this. You're probably right. Dave Ramsey. Okay, he did Dave Ramsey enough flip anything. This is like a clickbait, simply clickbait,

green clickbait story about some fucking guy who's like a subservient. It wasn't him that said it. Yeah, some other fucking guy. And by the way, he didn't fucking say Bitcoin is part of a balanced portfolio. He just said it's not going anywhere. These people will never understand Bitcoin. Okay, they'll never get it. This is just a garbage story that retards on Twitter like very He's can be he's converted you have to be zero IQ to be going to all these other YouTube channels not named CBP and And reading and listening to these people tell you that this changes everything Dave Ramsey shocking Bitcoin secret revealed. Don't be retarded This is all just click bait nonsense. Watch the video.

It's like, I don't know, four minutes or something, I'm pretty sure. And in the first three minutes, you hear everything you need to hear. So go check it out. Ramsey's not switching anything. The day Ramsey admits that Bitcoin is a legitimate vehicle for savings and investment is the day Dave Ramsey becomes obsolete. Just remember that. He's not going to ever tell you, don't worry about housing, don't worry about debt, don't worry, just buy a Bitcoin.

Well, he's the boomer investor for boomer. But he's like the worst of the worst, right? Like he says you should never have a big mortgage, impossible now, should never buy a car on financing, basically impossible now. He's living in a different world, completely different world. No, you're right. And he's also right. If you could somehow do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know. Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong,

but it's impossible advice is what I'm saying. Yeah. Unless you have a huge amount of wealth, it's impossible to do that. But if you do have a huge amount of wealth, you're probably not gonna do that. No, no one's ever gotten rich listening to Dave Ramsey. You know, like that's just not, he's not making you rich.

There's no doubt about that. You're not using fiat and leveraging against fiat in order to increase your, not to say people should do this, people get wrecked in the whole process. Dave Ramsey never giving you the advice to open every piece of mail the bank sends you with a loan opportunity and just piling it into Bitcoin.

Dave Ramsey's never going to tell you that. Do more stories or we could just transition? Let's do a couple more. I'll do a couple more. Katie Martin. I love this. Did you watch the video? It's a short clip.

I know. I watched the whole thing. I watched the whole thing. It is so good, Len, how dumb this woman is. And she's like talking nonstop about Bitcoin and the teeth, the teeth. There you go. Please, please give some context here for people who aren't aware. By the way, she's my no quarter of the week for just even having this type of fucking

thinking. But there's a lot of people that didn't watch it or listen. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of ways to spin the Bitcoin scarcity thing. If you're not a fan of Bitcoin, you could say that it's manufactured scarcity and so it shouldn't count. You could say that things need to be useful and scarce.

If you look at on-chain traffic for spending, it's not that much. It's just people trading it and it's become a financial instrument. I don't think it's a valid criticism, but it's a lot closer than Bitcoin is scarce and valuable because it's scarce, but my teeth are scarce and they're not worth billions of dollars. That's not a good argument against Bitcoin. And it's funny, she kind of gives up the game during the interview when she talks about how of over a thousand or 4,000, some insane number of FT quote unquote analysts and article

writers and things of this nature, right? They did a stock picking contest where they had to pick a bunch of stocks, including like potential stock shorts. And last year she finished fifth from the bottom of all the people in the contest. So how did the dartboard do? I don't know. Probably better. I don't know. I don't know. Probably better. I'm not sure. Well, with respect to the teeth, you have all your teeth, right?

I had a bunch of them when I was a kid, but all the ones I'm supposed to have, I have. So I would imagine to you, your teeth are worth quite a bit. Sure. I don't know how much Bitcoin you have, but you may consider trading all the Bitcoin you have just to keep the rest of your teeth for the rest of your life. If it came to that I mean I'm not so sure. I've seen some of the work that people are

getting done on Instagram and Twitter you know. I could probably just get some new teeth or something. But on the open market your teeth are worth nothing. I'm sorry to say. Yeah. I never have to worry about someone rehypothecating my teeth when I give it to them as loan collateral Yeah, there's no jewelry or it's not gold, right? It's just a fucking tooth So value in the market is it's fucking nil but to you it's worth a lot and that's what Bitcoin is How much is it worth? It's not my teeth I maybe only have a certain amount of teeth, but I have an unlimited

You know amount of enamel and so they're actually not scarce or rare or anything. So yeah. Bumdaz is saying she's been covering Bitcoin for over five years. She has. She mentioned that she's been like writing about it. She's just stupid. She's just stupid. There's no other.

Yeah, there's no, like I try not to, actually it's not true. I don't try not to call people stupid on this show. I call them stupid pretty much every week, but like there's a difficulty associated with covering something for five years and then still not understanding it and offering sort of the worst form of entry level rudimentary criticism of Bitcoin scarcity in a public forum. When you're talking to some of the best and brightest, right? Like you can agree or disagree with Jeff Walton punter Jeff about his MSTR strategy and thoughts

But there's no doubt that the guy has done research and feels this way about MSTR because he's done some work on the stock and on the company and on the financialization and understands things like You know Bitcoin per share and these other metrics that he thinks contributes to what will be the most valuable company on the planet. You can agree with that or disagree with that, but there's no doubt he's done the work. You can agree or disagree with Saylor talking about stuff like using debt to lever up your company to buy Bitcoin

and raise the price and raise the value of your company and raise the debt. You can agree or disagree. You can say it's a Ponzi or a flywheel. Fine, no one cares. No one's gonna fight with you about this, but there's no argument about whether or not he's done the work to see whether this will continue to be successful or not. He's thought about this a lot.

His board has thought about it. His C-suite has thought about it. We are, I think at some point, owed by the media that if we're going to continue to engage with them, we are owed some level of work being done, you know, proof of work as we like to say. Talk to me about what you've learned about Bitcoin before we sit down for a long form interview and she just hasn't done any. It's really that simple.

There's no way that any thinking person could come up with that criticism, that analogy if they had done even the littlest bit of work on Bitcoin. It's like, it's like impossibly dumb. She's moving us saying she shorted MS TR without understanding it. That's fucking ballsy. That was why she finished last in the contest. That was like one of her paper stock picks.

Yeah. So she didn't put actually like real. I mean, Len, someone that dumb doesn't have any money to put on any of this shit anyway. So it's not like she could have used a real portfolio like come on I just I don't I don't it's crazy completely insane to me one more quit it fuck it. Let's keep going. Why not? Robin Hood, it looks like Canada. Yeah, sort of sort of yeah At least for they're gonna be offering us a variety of shit coins That looks like that's what they're gonna be providing us in terms of their level services because they purchased

well, they offered 250 million Canadian to wonder fi and that is a Canadian shit coin exchange. They also have bit buying coin square under their umbrellas They got a few exchanges there and the 250 million Canadian. I don't know what it is in US dollar 180 That's a 41% premium over the trade price of wonder fly stock price So they've been hard not it's hard not to take it. Yeah Yeah, if you're rich on that for sure. Yeah, so they see something here that they want to really fucking get in to the Canadian market. Why I don't know but like I say With respect to coinbase. This is Robin Hood is kind of the same bullshit, right? They're offering a lot of shit coins

I would expect that they're outsourcing a lot of trash. So Yeah, I would if I'm gonna bet I'm gonna say yeah And so like if you're gonna deal with them fucking be very careful. You see what happens to the Coinbase customers. So with respect to that, fuck Robin Hood, fuck Coinbase, fuck them all. And deal with a better partner when you're talking about Bitcoin. Yeah, we should get Jordan Anderson back on the show. It's been a while since he's been on. We were in our infancy when we talked to Jordan at the Bit.py headquarters.

I think he came on the day they were bought last time. Right. I think he came on if you remember that. So it's it's like every couple of years is a bio. Yeah. Yeah. He's like he's out of there now. He's he's moved on to other stuff. I think he's with Mark told us the other day. I forget now, but I don't remember.

And even if I do, I don't want to say in case it's wrong. He's always you know what? There's some guys guys I just like and whether he goes to work for a shitcoin casino or not I don't care like I'm always willing to have him on. Plus he gave me my Bitcoin 100,000 hat he came up to me I was super hung over at the first Bitcoin conference I'm seeing. He came up saddled up next to me and pulled the hat out of his backpack. He said here it's for you. All right thanks man yeah I appreciate that. That's it Joey let's go to normal. Let said here it's for you. Alright, thanks man. I appreciate that.

That's it, Joey. Let's go to normal. Let's do it. Thanks for coming. If you're on audio, stay till tomorrow. Or I guess wait till tomorrow. If you're on video, stick around. We're not going anywhere. We'll talk to you in literally zero seconds. And don't be a Katie Martin.