The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - Bitget Lost $351 Million Without Losing a Single Key

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

Mark Carney says he has looked at an "extreme tail risk" involving the United States. The reporter supplied the word "invasion," but the political problem is the same: Canada is talking out loud about scenarios that used to stay in the binder.This week on CBP: Bitget loses hundreds of millions without a private-key compromise, researchers quantum-proof part of Lightning without touching channel funds, Hester Peirce leaves the SEC, Montreal prices an undefined insult at up to $2,000, and B.C. gets an early election call.What is the biggest story this week: the Bitget backend failure, the Carney tail-risk interview, or Montreal's new speech bylaw?READ MOREBitget hack: https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2026/09/25/bitget-s-usd351-million-hack-happened-via-spoofed-transfers-not-private-keys-ceo-gray-chen-saysPQLN paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2609.13781Carney tail risk: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-24/carney-tells-nyt-he-looked-at-extreme-tail-risk-of-us-invasionMontreal insult bylaw: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/Canadian Bitcoiners PodcastWebsite: https://canadianbitcoiners.comSubscribe and turn on notifications - new episodes live Monday nights.SPONSORSeasyDNS - Canadian-owned domains, DNS, email and hosting from an ICANN-accredited company that has accepted Bitcoin since 2013. Use promo code CBPMEDIA for 50% off your first purchase.https://easydns.comBull Bitcoin - Canada's non-custodial, Bitcoin-only exchange. CBP listeners get 25% off fees for life.https://app.bullbitcoin.com/registration/cbp256 Heat - Purpose-built Bitcoin miners that heat your space while producing hashrate. Tell them CBP sent you for a discount.https://256heat.comBitcoin Mentor - One-on-one help with wallets, keys, self-custody, inheritance planning and nodes. Every package includes a 30-day money-back guarantee.https://btcmentor.io/aff/joeyFOLLOW THE SHOWCBP: https://x.com/CanadianBTCPodJoey: https://x.com/joeytweeetsLen: https://x.com/thebtcpricebotInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/canadianbtcpod/Discord: https://discord.gg/YgPJVbGCZXLISTENSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6WzoIyTowK47rcAmvrS7gtApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-canadian-bitcoiners-podcast-bitcoin-news-with/id1561002990RSS: https://anchor.fm/s/538d43f4/podcast/rssEverything in this episode reflects personal opinions only and should not be considered financial advice.#Bitcoin #BitcoinNews #CanadianBitcoiners

Friends and enemies, hope you weren't using BitGet or you got BitGot. Blockstream being sued by River Financial over some, I guess, unpaid mining fees and then saying that they're not responsible if it's not the same company. Interesting things happening at Blockstream these days. And then, of course, Len and I will be brushing up on our military knowledge since both of us obviously headed to war with the United States. Any time now. Are you fitted for your boots?

Did you get your rucksack yet? I have a flack jacket that's on order. So I think I'm okay. I'm pretty sure the military in this country is getting their stuff from like winners or those crazy bins stores at this point. Anyways, we're going to talk about all that tonight. Thanks for coming. Make sure you like the video, subscribe to the channel.

Here's the intro. And so, you know, the government can say whatever they want about this thing not competing. It's for black market only. It's for this for that. But they're really treating it like a threat. And one of the things that can't be attacked is your self-custody Bitcoin. And one of the things that can be attacked is the ETF. Can't be exposed to that.

That's my view. It's not a good idea. And by the way, that'll hit MSTR too. It'll probably hit other stuff as well. Friends and enemies. Welcome back. Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. Friends and enemies, welcome to the CBP.

Want to be better informed. Listen to Levinjoie. Spots is taking care off right off the top. Oh, Bitcoin and Easy D.Ns. The media is feeding a slop. Shout out to our guy, D's laughs for that intro. Buddy, what is going? I mean, we've had a busy.

busy few days in Bitcoin and in Canadian stories. Yeah. More so Canadian stories. Yeah. A few good ones. Yeah. You know what? Ever since I'm going to say, ever since the Block Stream, the Liquid Saga

has been relatively quiet comparatively in Bitcoin. We had that, you know, BIP 110 and then block stream and then quiet. But yeah, let's bring it on, Joey. What I do like, though, is what's going on in the rest of the world, and that's going to be a fun discussion in the latter half of the show.

Can't wait. Yeah, our blood pressure is going to go nuts. Mine's already too. I listen. I got some stories that are just going to knock people's socks off. We got two sponsors to this show. EasyDNS is the first one. Mark, obviously, friend of ours for a long time.

Easy DNS is the place you need to be going if you're thinking about starting a website. If you're thinking about buying a domain, doing anything related to registrar or obviously DNS. And Mark, you know, he's been in the game for a long time. I think he started these DNS or co-founded it in the 90s. And so you're talking about a guy who's been around for almost 30 years and has been taking Bitcoin as payment for, I think the last 13 or 14, something like that. Something crazy. Like early, early, early Bitcoin adoption, which you love to see.

Obviously, there's a lot of talk about these like claw bots, hermi, stuff like that. These DNS is running their own on their side of the, you know, sort of server, their server side. So if you don't want to like get stuck in a warp zone where you're thinking about all these different applications and iterations and ways to run these things. You want it like a cut and dry, ready to go, copy-paste thing. Marks throughout your back. If you're a Bitcoin enthusiast, I mean, obviously you are for listening to this show. There's a lot of VPS virtual private server options that Mark and the team have or the Bitcoin

enthusiast. Noster relays, Bitcoin nodes, BTCP server stuff, if that's your game. You can't really beat the price, but it actually gets better if you use our promo code CBP media, all one word, 50% off whatever you buy, your first cart. So you load up, get a website for a year, get the Hermes, get the Easy Claw, get all that stuff. And really pay almost nothing for it. Can't beat that. Sports the show, obviously, sends Mark a few shackles as well.

Take some time. Go to EasyNS.com and load up your cart, man. What are you waiting for? Who's the second sponsor? Yeah, you're going to load up your Bitcoin wallet with our second sponsor, which is Bull Bitcoin. That's where you're going to buy or sell your Bitcoin over, whatever it is your jam. They'll be able to hook you up on chain, lightning. They got a number of different ways to do.

Fees are still low, so on-chain is still the way to go if you ask me, but do whatever you think is best. And not only are you just able to buy and sell. Like these guys are non-custodial, right? And we'll talk why non-custod is a big thing. You could also pay your bills with them. You can send money to your buds, and it's going to be Bitcoin sent to bill Bitcoin. And Fiat gets sent to your buds. Lots of different options over there.

You can do limit orders. You could do daily buys, all that, all the jazz you could do on a bunch of exchanges. But these guys, because they're. privacy nature and because they are not custodial, they are the best in the game. Check them out. Available in Canada, Western Europe,

a bunch of Latin American countries. Are they in Asia yet? Not yet. I don't know. Probably not. Australia. Probably not. Let's get them there.

Use our code below. Sign up. And if you do, all your buys and sales will be a little bit cheaper forever. So check them out. Can't beat that. Let's go to some boosts, I guess,

and then see where the night takes us. So these are the top five boosts. And so we got three, 99 sats by Reb Hoddle. And he writes in, Love the energy here. As fuck as everything is, we could still all choose to do

what we think is right regardless. Sometimes those are hard choices. 100%. The reason why things are hard to do is because they are hard and people tend to shy away from them. They choose the easy path. And we are here to Bitcoin and do the right thing, which may be hard.

But in the long run, it's going to be right. Mo BTC Dick 475 Sats Number one he writes Jesus fucking Christ Guess it's private school For my future children I suppose that's with respect

To what's going on in this school system Private school is I guess the way to go He also writes in for another 475 sats He writes in I have noticed in my circle lately That it's harder than it was in the last cycle To Orange Pill and have people live Listen, but the amount of people adding Bitcoin equity slash ETFs have increased.

Just a trend I've noticed. Same, I guess. Same, I guess. ETF flows tell the story there. When the inflows are positive, they are like wildly positive. Have they been lately or has it been flat or negative? They were up last week, even as the price kind of tapered off a little bit. The week before, I think they were still net negative.

So I don't know what the reporting lag is on that, though. So it might be actually like a week before the report comes out. Anyway, it hasn't been like a gangbuster ETF inflow week for a while. Obviously, I mean, if there was, you would see it in the price. But, you know, these 10% weeks, 8% weeks, you think it's a lot. And like the price kind of tells you that it's an interesting move, let's say, better than ordinary. But still on the ETS side, it's nothing it's right home about. And Doug and Rup, 499s, he writes in, holy crap, I included two Marcus Aurelius quotes in my lecture on

Monday, suppose it's off to the gulags for me. Maybe. It's getting well lasted there, Dougie. Good well it lasted. And last but not least, we have 2-1-1-1-sats, right? 2-1-1-1 sets. To be honest, Joey, I don't know who wrote this in. It just has a name, like a username.

So there's no actual name associated with it. It's like username and a bunch of numbers. So I wish I got to give a credit here. But he said, it's Monday. it's already been a long week take my money send it whatever you want man yeah

but man who is this guy I'd love to know who this nameless guy is you gotta find out we gotta find out tell us next week sending another booths one side

getting to the top five one not I just said it's one side I'll give you the plug so yeah you want to talk about Bickette this is a just I mean

sure there's an interesting wrinkles here interesting wrinkles in this story but anyway go ahead yeah Bickett to be honest, it's kind of a smaller player in a grand scheme of things, right? I don't really hear a lot about them, but just this past week on September 24th, there was a security breach.

They heard of so many times, but we'll get a little bit into the technicals here. And this security breach enabled somebody to get access and steal $351 million in digital assets. And that was taken off their exchange. And according to BitGat CEO, Gracie Chen, by the way, when she went on a Q&A session right after this, somebody was asking if she was single. So clearly that their mind was in the wrong spot if they had their money stolen.

But either way, maybe they wanted to get a cheap thrill. They say that the, she says that the attackers, after doing some forensic analysis, did not gain access to BitKets private keys. Instead, they were able to get inside an internal wallet back end system. So this is some programming that they had that it must have not been totally secure. I'm assuming AI was able to help them breach this. And with that, they were falsifying transaction data and that bypassed normal authorization processes. And with that,

they stole that $351 million worth of stuff like E, USDC, USDT, B&B, and, you know, there's a bunch of shit coins. And they say that they're coldwold. this though remain 100% secure. That was separate. It's separate from their, uh, what's been stolen here. So that was secure. But, but they do have something called the user protection fund. And that user protection fund, which they held over $464 million more than what was stolen. That's a lot of money that they had. How did this? They accumulate this and what? I, I just don't know. Either way, they said that they are going to pledge to make. all these balances full.

And so anybody that had something stolen is going to be made whole as a result of this. Withdrawals were temporarily halted as of September 24th. And today they said they're going to be reenabling it. So I'm not sure if it's been reenable as of right now. But they said today, September 28th, they're going to start reenabling people to take their whatever, Bitcoin and shit coins off their exchange. They do say, though, this is more of an axis of easy type scenario. here that potentially the Lazarus group is the ones that might be on the hook here. They're the ones that are doing this because just by the analysis they see, they,

yeah, they were able to move stuff quickly off circle, off tether. And so it looks like this has the hallmark. Everything has to do with the Lazarus and North Koreans. So I'm looking at this. Another reason why one does not want to leave any Bitcoin. or whatever on an exchange. The level of trust you have to give them is the ultimate, and they could take it right from you by simply find an AI finding a backdoor

or a vulnerability in the system. Luckily, their cold storage was secure, but still a lot of shit coins were stolen as a result of all this. This is just more of a call to action for people out there if you do have something on any exchange. strongly consider taking it off and finding a place to put it that is secure. Do the research to find out what you think is secure, what others believe to be secure. Research that through your own homework.

And if you think that's right, execute it. I want to know what Coinbase has on exchange right now compared to like three months ago, let's say. You've had all these hacks. They've all been pretty mainline stories in Bitcoin. some of them even getting coverage in the traditional media. Obviously the coal card hack was big here in Canada because it's a Canadian company. BitGet was another company

that got hacked obviously recently. And I want to know if actually these calls to action that you and me and the BitCast guys and Mark's talking about it in his letter too, if anyone is actually listening and pulling their funds

off of exchanges, I don't know if that's the case. I think it's actually the opposite one. I think the real movement is away from cold wallets and warm wallets and hot wallets onto exchanges. Does that seem to you to be the case for the majority of the Bitcoin space? Consider, of course, that not every Bitcoiners like you or I. Like, I would consider us, if not sophisticated Bitcoiners, then at least close on the sliding scale.

But many Bitcoiners are not thinking this way. They might have some in a ledger, some in a trest or something like that. And they're maybe moving away from that back to Coinbase, back to shake pay, back to crack in, whatever, because they want to offload the security. I think you're correct in the call to action saying that the answer is not to outsource your, to outsource the security of your stack. That's never going to be the answer. What is the answer is refining, reviewing, and improving your security, making sure you understand how things like cold wallets work. Make sure you understand how things like passphrases work. Where are your vulnerabilities?

Is your machine air gap if that's your thing? Is your wallet air gap if that's your thing? But I get the feeling, land, honestly, that if I looked up the Coinbase balances, I bet you they are unchanged or up, like, you know, significantly, non-linearly since these hacks started. And I honestly, like, I kind of get it. Kind of get it.

So do I. I get it. This is going to be another example. what happened here because they are going to reimburse all the users that had their funds stolen. In the end, the users are like, whatever, I was able to give them my funds and hand them my trust. And I still have, at least at this particular moment, access to those funds. So they're going to look at this and say, oh, you know what, I'm going to continually trust these folks to do whatever it is I want them to do. Doesn't mean it's going to be the right thing for you in the long run?

Well, time will tell. of. And if you don't have access to your keys, do you really have access to it in the grand scheme of things? Can there be a freeze in your account or can somebody lock you out or what? Anything could happen, you know, right? Like you just, yeah, the one thing that they can't stop you is those 12 or 24 words that are in your head or wherever you have them stored. Those as long as you have access to that, nobody could lock you out of that from Bitcoin. But if you leave it on the exchange, there's always a risk, something that will prevent you from getting access to it. And a lot of people are just going to

look at, you know, people lost money on cold card or people when they bought a treasurer, they had their information leak just recently because of a third party. What the hell was it called? Something monkey or maybe a lot. Yeah, I forget. I forget. Whatever it is. Why would I expose my information?

Why would expose my wealth like what they did with cold card? When was the cold card hack? Do you remember? What was the date of that? I'm just looking at coin glass right now. It was late July because it was one of the last times I played golf. late July? Yeah.

So late July. That's what I'm guessing. Or late June. You sure it wasn't late June? Man, I can't remember. Someone can tell me. But there are noticeable spikes late June.

And then again in... July 30th. Yeah. July 30th. Okay. So I don't see a noticeable spike here unless I'm looking at the wrong thing. This is BTC total transfer volume two exchanges. So it stayed steady, I guess.

When you did see a price... When you did see a spike that correlated with price was this August, this August price increase. The August increase happened just two weeks ago or so. No, the August price increase that matches the exchange. Yeah, the August price increase to match the exchange stuff is the 20th. So people moving coins to sell presumably. I actually don't see a big jump. So maybe my thesis is wrong here too.

Hard to say, you know. Oh, here's one on us is beginning of June. End of July, there's nothing. beginning of July, but not the end of July. The price of Bitcoin was flat after the cold card thing. That was one of the things I was pointing out is that the price didn't really move.

Yeah, people just don't care. 1% or something, maybe less than a 10%. But between that and the fees on chain not going up significantly, there was a small, small, small, small spike. But other than that, it was, you know, just basically par for the course.

So I was looking at that as being very bullish. But it also, it points out that we're going into a different topic here, but the cold card thing is, it impacted a very small segment of the whole Bitcoin community. Yeah. As a whole,

we thought, the cold card thing, though, like, I don't know how you view it. I mean, we might have talked about this and we had Mark on, actually, the night of the hack

or the night after the hack, too, the three of us were kind of just chopping it up. Do you think, I realize there's a small number of people that own cold cards, but don't you think there was ripple effects? Like, didn't other people,

like people with other wallets panic a little bit? I think kind of in my echo chamber it looked to me a little bit like there was some panic. I don't know how, but apparently not. Like I, like I said,

I'm trying to like, in terms of like panicking. What would they do? Move to a, move to exchange. Move to exchange. Okay. Yeah.

That would be my guess, but I don't know. Like, am I crazy on that? I'm not sure. It seemed like that didn't happen. That was. Beginning of July,

there is, okay, so if I go to exchange in flow volume, the mean transfer volume to exchanges jumped at the end of June beginning of July when the price was flat. One month or before it is altered. Before. So it happened at the end of July. Another spike at the end of July on the 30th, Thursday, July 30th.

That was probably the night it happened, right? Yeah. Yeah. So there's a bit of a spike there and then another spike on the Monday. You would have known if this would have a bigger impact is that the price went down significantly afterwards, immediately after this was reported. And people would have been saying that my belief in Bitcoin is lost and people would sell not only their spot Bitcoin, but anything that is related to it, maybe an ETF or MSTR

or CETA, whatever the heck it may be, because just like, oh, my faith is gone. At least it's eroded enough that I'm going to sell what I have right now. And that didn't happen. So either that was that cold card thing just impacted a select few people in Bitcoin. and it didn't, it didn't resonate amongst the whole Bitcoin community, quote, with air quotes here, or maybe just people just didn't care, right?

They're just like, whatever. It's just like, you know, some people lost their money. Whoop you do, right? Like, just this happens all the time. We have another one here, like the BitGat story. I know it's not specifically with Bitcoin, but people temporarily lost their, well, in this case, they're shit coins.

So there's stories like this all the time, right? Yeah. people losing their stuff because they just trust the wrong thing or do something. I don't want to say stupid, but do something that is not secure that is going to secure their Bitcoin or their wealth. And then they do something

that's wrong. Well, that's not that's not going to secure their Bitcoin and here we are. So this is another result. So that whole cold card thing that was fascinating to watch, but the fact it didn't impact Bitcoin as a whole, the price or the amount of

transactions being done at the time. I think that's a case study to look at this is just hardcore bitcoiners. To be honest, I never removed my Bitcoin. I set up my cold cards. If you dice rolled, you didn't have to.

I touched it. I mean, I could see it. When I look at whatever programs I have, I could look at all the addresses and nothing's moved, but I haven't changed anything. It's a fact, I don't want to say it.

I trust it, but I did it right. The way we always encourage people to do it, man. Ever since I had my issue, we talked about it on this show for years, for years. And people go back to like our old YouTube shorts. I mean, you don't look at the YouTube stuff, but there's comments. We got pounded with comments when basically the weekend and maybe a couple of days after that weekend when it happened. About how wrong we were, how we should be sued to, how content creators are going to be held liable.

like number one I don't think they are but number two if you can show me where we suggested the people that they use a cold card and not do it properly the way we did I think we recommended the paranoid setup and you know all these different things you didn't have to move it I chose to anyways but I'll tell you I still have the cold cards all sitting back here so they're not gone you know well you may want to move them because I'll tell you why

there's this next story that we could discuss This is our weekly wrench attack segment. We always talk about this brought you by Stanley. This is a mastercraft. The best in adjustable wrenches, well balanced, and any time you make a swing, the guy's not going to fall out of your hand. BBC is reporting that a 10,000 British pound reward

has been sent out there for anyone who wants to take advantage of it, following a violent home invasion that happened in West Midlands in the UK. game. And this happened a few months back, actually almost a year, December 13th, 2025. And at the time, a young couple was targeted because of their quote-unquote cryptocurrency holdings. And so the couple, as they opened the front door, it doesn't say if they were leaving the house or somebody knocked in the door and they opened the door. Either way, the front door was open. Three masked men, they rushed into the property. And they did some really brutal stuff. They started beating on it. a guy and he received some severe physical injuries as a result. Plus, his wife, who was pregnant at the time, she was threatened with a knife. And so the three men carried out the robbery. But there was a fourth dude in here. Not physically there.

He was directing them remotely via a video call. The mastermind here, he was behind the, you know, it's almost like a GTA mission where you have Lester telling us on what to do. And so last year, what a callback. Because I played it recently. I'm trying to get ready for GTA6. So either way, that's what they did. They went in there.

They stole a bunch of, they could say digital assets. They don't see exactly what was stolen specifically. But they also stole some high value watches. So I'm thinking these guys, they were living a lifestyle. They were flaunting it. If you have expensive watches, you probably have also, expensive other things shoes clothes car whatever it may be anyways so crime stoppers stepped up and they're offering a reward of up to 10,000 British pounds for any anonymous information that could

lead to the arrest or conviction of those responsible these things are happening more frequently these wrench attacks I mean and so as this becomes more prominent and it seems like the police are busy doing other things because it's just you know things are getting more busy depending on who you talk to Olivia Chow says crime is going down but as a whole whole, it looks like it's going up. I think we've got to do a weekly segment of these wrench attacks. I think we're getting to the point where we'll be doing it. Why are people still keeping their Bitcoin at their primary residence?

That's a good question. Especially in Europe. These stories, even if you don't think, and let's face it, okay, the odds are going to be in your favor. The likelihood that you get broken into and beat up or whatever for your crypto is pretty low. But man, France, the first. France story should scare you.

Like, they have people working for the government that are just selling addresses and balances to criminals. Like, you don't think that's happening other places? Look around. Go get a government service from somebody in any first world nation and tell me the person you get the service from doesn't look like maybe they're a little hard up for cash. You know, like, I don't, I cannot recommend enough. Okay. There are downsides of this, obviously. ask me about the cold card weekend, okay?

It wasn't fun for me. But the upside to not having your Bitcoin in your house is basically unlimited. Like, I guess you can't sell into a God candle if you want to. Whoopty-do. You know, it might be hard to whatever. I don't know what's another good example. If you live off Bitcoin, maybe you need like a hot wallet, something similar to a hot wallet on your person or, you know, at your residence, fine. I get it.

but I can't in good conscience at this point recommend to people. You got to have your Bitcoin, even in like a safe in your house. Like if you have a safe, that's a target, you know? If you have a safety box in your bedroom or whatever, it's a target. Like all these things are obvious to intruders. And if you think there's a possibility of intruders, the best thing to do is just not have the stuff there. It gets really that simple. Bitcoin has value because it's infinitely defensible.

If someone comes to your house and your Bitcoin is not there, okay, they can't kill you to get the Bitcoin. It's actually the opposite. They kill you and they get nothing except the, you know, five-star wanted rating to stay in theme with the GTA stuff. There isn't a downside to this, really. I mean, we've been saying this for a long time, you and I, and it feels like, I don't want to say there's no other channels doing this because I don't know. I can't think of another channel that makes this recommendation as black and white as we do. Maybe Ben does. He's now talking about what he.

I've never seen Ben say, don't keep it at your house. Maybe he says it. I've never heard him say it. I'm just assuming because he's doing a lot of sovereignty stuff now. And I would assume that that message would resonate amongst people that would not want to keep anything to do with their keys. Yeah. So I'm guessing, but I can't say for a certain.

Keep a hot wallet. Like the only wallet I have here right now. is this bit box with the, well, there's a bunch of wallets here of nothing on it, but there's a bit box with the CBP fantasy football sats. Which, by the way,

which by the way, I will be losing my contribution to that. I'm pretty sure because Devon, Nate Chan got hurt yesterday, Tony C.L. RIP. Oh, is that the defensive guy from the Giants? No, no, no, that's Brian Burns.

A. Chan is the running back for the Finns. So, not great. Not a great look for me, my first round pick. what are we supposed to do? Sell at the Omega candle from 100K to... I don't know. You're not supposed to do that. And then Officer Snatzdacker saying that sell, what is sell?

Exactly. So I like, they're right. Because what's the point of moving it from to Fiat? It's just you keep it, you know, if the value goes up significantly, then it just trade it for something. But then you can't trade it without those keys, you're getting access to it. But, you know, that's probably the way to go. Think of all the people.

people, if they're, it's inevitable. We'll just quietly switch topics here. It's inevitable that there's going to be some sort of candle that's just extremely green. For sure. For sure. And whenever that happens, I'm curious to see how many people are going to be tempted and actually follow through on selling for fiat. It's got to be a lot of people.

It's really, in my opinion, like if you're selling for fiat, it's because you have some kind of fiat obligation that's keeping you up at night. That's the only way I think you would sell, right? If you were thinking to yourself, like, I would love to settle, you know, a chunk of my mortgage or my car or, you know, we don't have university age kids, you and I. But if you did, you know, like I want to pay my daughter's school bills, like I kind of get it. It's like a different kind of fee out. But if you're selling Bitcoin to just like move to cash or like heaven forbid buy stocks, that I don't get. That's got to get a separate bag.

People are just trained to like, because we're born in the world of cash, Canadian dollars, US dollar, whatever it may be. And we lived in all our lives to break out of that, even for people that are hardcore Bitcoiners into Bitcoin, it's hard for them to truly break out of that. So when they have the ability to accumulate a heck of a lot of that paper dollars that are back by nothing, by the way, I think a lot of people will still do that.

It makes sense. And I get it. I'm not going to do it, but that's just me and I would do whatever to how you guys want to do. Because you know what's going to happen as it goes up, it's going to go down too. Yeah. Right? It's not going to stay up forever.

So if there's this massive candle, it's going to go down. People are going to try it to make sure that they are on the right side of the trade. But there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be left behind because they're going to sell before, you know, it hits the top. I also, I kind of think, I know you disagree with this, but like that, like, Omega candle, just to, you know, go deep on this, this, you know, bull fever dream. that Torup is having in the chat. What is the likelihood that between

100K and a million, there's some extra options available for people who don't want to sell? Like, you're already seeing this loan thing, take shape. Yeah. You know, if you need 20 grand and you got a million dollars for the Bitcoin, what are you going to put up 40 for the 20 and watch the price go from a million to 2 million over five years, not worry

about the payment. Like, that's the kind of thing I think most people are banking on. I'm not saying it's a good strategy, hope, or something like that is never a good strategy, but I mean, we both think this is almost an inevitability that price makes it to that level. Just a question of when and what speed and stuff like that. So I wouldn't be a big seller.

Like, like I said, what you don't want to do is peel like a 20%, you know, peel off 20% of your stack to pay a debt obligation during a secular inflationary period where the currency is decreasing in value 5, 6, 7% every year. Like, you want those static debt numbers. and you want to keep as much as you can in appreciating assets. That's how you make it in fiat land. You don't want to get out of Bitcoin and go into that for the sake of sleeping at night. There's obviously other things that require your money in time, right? Like there's a friend of the show, Taylor Sugar was messaging me on Twitter a couple days ago. And he's saying that, you know, he thinks I should make a lifestyle dividend investment.

He talks about lifestyle dividends, like do something to improve your day-to-day life when I keep telling them like, I don't know. I'm not sure I'm ready to do that yet. But, you know, I wouldn't hold it against anybody who did want to do that. There's things you could do. But with your point, getting out of Bitcoin and into whatever, the S&P, like, why? Getting into 100%. You know, you want to buy a watch, buy a watch. You want to buy a, you want to redo your kitchen, redo your kitchen. But don't, don't do something stupid like that. And then there's also the tax obligation. Of course. If it's somehow, you know, you have, you have a, you have seven, eight figures

mysteriously show up in your bank account. Somebody's going to report that and there's going to be questions. How did you get that? Gee, I sold some Bitcoin. Oh, you got to pay taxes on that now. That's another thing that it's going to be hard to get around if just take a whole bunch of cash or dollars end up in your

bank account without any explanation. Some things don't have to be discussed later on and that would suck. But now, I mean, I took a little bit of time to think about it. Probably there isn't going to be this massive candle. I was thinking it's inevitable. I think it's going to be

just slow, steady increase. There's always little, but there's always like 8% 10% rips along the way. But that's not a, that's not the candle like I was initially talking about. 10% rip from 900,000 to a million

is 100K. Yeah. So, you know, is that? Maybe that's the candle everyone's talking about. Is that the big, throbbing, vaney candle that you're looking for?

I'm not sure. Didn't gold have something very similar in a short period of time where it went from like 3,000 to 5,000? How's a $1,000 week. Unparalleled, unheard of. And that's like a 25% increase in overall market cap. In a $30 trillion or $13,14 trillion.

Right. Yeah. We're not talking about some thinly traded stock here. We're talking about fucking gold. And if it did that, I mean, it could certainly happen to Bitcoin as well. Yeah, I think so. You just have to have a lot of resources pointed towards it, a lot of eyes. And I could tell you that who's not looking at Bitcoin the same way that we do is this couple

this is an interesting story somebody was posting on Twitter this European family they decided to get their plan B passport they traded almost 12 Bitcoin 11.9 Bitcoin 11.9 Bitcoin and what did they get El Salvador citizenship

So they traded 11.9 Bitcoin to get El Salvador Citizenship. So I took a look at it see what the thing is. What is that? A million USD? You're 100% right. So in order to get it they call it either the freedom visa or a Freedom Passport program and you have to pony up $1 million worth of Bitcoin or USDT. You also have to pay a $1,000.

These are all U.S. dollars, by way, $1,000 in application fees. Any family member you want to add is another $1,000 per person. And also you have to throw in $30,000 for background checks and documentation to be verified in legal processing fees. Imagine handing 12 Bitcoin to get, I mean, I get it. I mean, this is a European family, too. So it's not like they didn't have options to travel around. They could have went to Portugal.

They could have went to Sweden or just about anywhere between there. So they had some options. But they figured, you know what? Elsev or citizenship is something that they wanted to get for whatever reason. Why? That's got to be brainwashing propaganda, Bitcoin propaganda at this point, right? Like, why would you ever pay? What is the Plan B passport company that Katie runs, Katie the Russian runs.

What do they charge? I think they just do tourism, not tourism, but investment passports for different places like St. Kitts and Granada, I think, is a few other. There's a whole bunch of, even European countries. It can't be a million dollars for those places. Like, why would you just get like literally any other passport? Doesn't Canada even have some sort of entrepreneur program to? Canada, you can just say you're Canadian.

Like get a, get some one right on the back of a napkin. They get him a fucking passport. I identify. I'm Canadian. So I'm Canadian background. So, I mean, I don't know what was the draw for this. Like, why does they want? It's like there are a couple of years, two, three years too late to the game.

I don't say I would understand it doing a few years ago, but at least it seemed like that was in vogue for being a Bitcoiner and wanting to blow there. Totally. But now things seem to have slowed down changed and it's been quite. We haven't, this is the second El Salvador, second time we talked about El Salvador in consecutive weeks. And before that, it's been maybe a year or give or take that we've talked about it. So it's, I don't know, man. Like it's, it's just fucked up that somebody would do this in today's day and age. But you know what?

They probably have a shitload of Bitcoin or a shitload of fiat that they transferred into Bitcoin to pay for this. A lot of people want to collect passports. You know, here you go. Stacking passports. Second best asset. I mean, it's good to have passports, but not for a million dollars. I don't think. There's a fucking fruit fly in here.

I've been battling with the same fruit fly for a fucking week. And I can't. He'll die eventually. I don't know what the lifespan is for a fruit fly But maybe it's not the same one But there's no food in here Like why would a fruit fly ever be in here I don't know

I don't know Whatever first one of them It was the opportunity There's more there's more fruit flies in here Than there are sats I'll tell you that So what if it's the opportunity To get a US citizenship for a million

I know that's not possible Hypothetically I would pay I don't say what you would pay I'm just saying Would somebody even consider paying that I mean I was for sure yeah That number would have to be like

US passport is 10 times that. We made me more than 10 times that. US passport's a fucking big deal if you can get one. Yeah. I would love to have a US passport. I am dying to figure out way to get one. Claude 5.5 is not good enough to tell me away yet. I need to run it up.

What's that B1 thing? What's that thing that? H1B. No, no. It's something to do specifically with our trade agreement. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Sure.

We know somebody that has taken advantage to go there. And if I say we do, we do know he, his, his, don't even docks anything here. But you'll know, he gave birth, his wife gave birth again to a second child two weeks ago.

I think last week maybe. So if if you're following the chats, you would understand who I'm talking about. What? Oh, fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. God. God. The dude is there, right? So, and he's taking advantage of that. So definitely he's Canadian. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. All right. So I was talking about Bitcoin is money.

because Bitcoin is indeed money in my opinion. Why not? 40 minutes into the show, we could talk about that. Sure. Why not? Well, yeah, I think it is. Somewhere between scamming passports and stolen Bitcoin. We'd talk about the monetary uses for, uh,

the integration of Bitcoin lightning network to the X 402 protocol is, looks like it's going to be a reality. Now, for people, we talked about the X 402 protocol. Some time ago, an axis of easy, it's named after the EZ, the HTTP status code, the payment required code. So X402 is an open payment standard,

and it lets software, web services, and automated bots transact natively over the internet. Now you hear that, and you're thinking Bitcoin, there's going to be something here that they just jives perfectly. It makes sense. So instead of using traditional online payments that uses somebody like human input, And you have to go there to manually enter the credit card information or have it fill out by our browser and do all that stuff. Well, the X402 automates the entire thing and it's managed by API keys. So an AI agent or script requests data through the API call.

The server then responds with a HTTP 402 error code alongside payment instructions. The client then settles the invoice. receives the cryptographic receipt, resubmits the request with the proof of payment attached. Then it realizes, okay, you've paid it with Bitcoin. The data or service is then immediately unlocked. So this integration of having the Bitcoin Lightning Network into X402 is being led by Block. And the process here is faster than if you were to use credit card payments, Not just simply human speed, but also the payment behind the scenes because settlement with lightning is instant.

Settlement with credit cards is not. Furthermore, micro payments with lightning work really well. You could have payments for SATs, right? And these are like fractions of a penny. So you can make these subpenny API queries viable. So they could be data streaming. They can make it economically viable. You're taking away the middleman.

There's no person involved. It's just basically payment. gets through and there's it seems right sounds great on paper the reality i don't know if this is going to be something that's going to be used how many people use lightning not many how many people are going to have a service that you have to pay for it with micropayments probably very few but but at least the opportunity is there if you want to sell something be data or a service and do it on a fraction of a cent and do it quickly you can now use this x402 that is tied with bitcoin lightning it does work, it's available, but in terms of having it in reality, in terms of practice, I think we're

far from it. I am still not entirely sold on like the block thesis here. I don't understand how this is still something that's like ongoing with them when they have cash app, which probably has like, you got to figure that as the most penetration for retailers, right, as far as like payment apps and payment hardware. Anything that's not a credit card, basically, or I should say like an ATM machine, what do you call those things, they handle the interact machines?

Anything that's not that is basically at this point, either a Shopify terminal, if you're up here, a square terminal, or, you know, some third party, whatever. They still can't seem to like get, like, they're like a mile wide and inch deep on the Bitcoin thing.

Does it not feel like that to you a little bit? It does, right? They have a lot of things you're trying to do, but nothing really. Yeah, but like, they're not working. Like stop throwing shit at the wall and try and get people to use a thing that works well. And it seems to me they're not doing it. I still see stories about, not stories, but like, you know, commentary online about,

oh, I went to go buy something at this retailer and they had a square terminal and I couldn't get Bitcoin payments to work. Okay, well, why? Like, why is that the case? That needs to be fixed, right? That's not an option for this company. I don't want to. X402, love it.

Okay. enthusiastic about it. This is more of like a skunk works project. It's not a retail mainline thing. And people need to start, like people block needs to start thinking about this, I think. Because they have so much penetration. Like I said, they're not, in my opinion, they're not using it well. I have nothing to add. I agree with what you're saying. And I wish them the best of success. Like I say, I like the idea. But if you're the bet on it working or gaining traction, like I know what you think it's not going to. I said it. In practice, I don't think this is going to be something that's going to be used.

And it's nice to have the option there, but man, I don't think it's going to be stuff. I'm still waiting for the Jack Malder's. I could buy my Big Mac with or whatever. Did you say, was it McDonald's? Can you can't Coke or something I thought. I can't remember. I'm like, well, like, what are we doing? You know, what are we doing?

I don't want to say anything too bad about Jack because he just did a interview on Ben's channel with Nathan. So, you know, I'm affiliated with both channels. I still. I talk badly about him there. I have my gripes. I have my gripes with him, though, still. And Nathan, to his credit, was like, you know, because I think he responded to a couple

my tweets and like, whatever he wanted to fight about it. And he asked me if I want to talk to him. I said, no, not really. I got nothing to say to the guy. He's in a closet. He gets out of the closet. Jack R. Kelly Mallors in the closet there. Anyway, look, I wish you had the best.

That's all I'll say. I can tell you what's being done is the shielded Bitcoin stuff. That's some people are working on. Now, this is fun. This is fun. This is interesting. But remember we're in the life cycle of this whole story where we are before we start jumping. Okay.

High five. So Reacher is over at Alec in It, sorry, Alec in It. They dropped a design that's similar to Zcatch style stuff on Bitcoin. It's a zero knowledge privacy that is using Bitcoin's base. layer and it doesn't require a soft work to enable this new idea here that they have. So it's building a privacy layer on top of Bitcoin and what it is, there's a pegg-in. So first, if the peg-in, you take your regular Bitcoin and you lock it to a protocol mechanism and it's kind of like moving into a private bucket or a pool of encrypted notes.

And once it's in there, it's kind of in a shielded state. and you could send it around within that to other people using zero knowledge proofs. And because it uses the ZK Math, nobody on the public ledger can see who is sending the funds, who is receiving them, the exact amount. And so that's kind of very secretive or private in that. So when you are able then to do the pegout, when you take the coins out, then it's done. But what was done in between you picking it in and picking it out, was kind of, you know, it's, there's no real trace in there.

Kind of similar to how lightning does it. You know, when you do this lightning, when you open a channel, you have a, you can move it to a Bitcoin address, you open a channel, then you close that channel. It's kind of very similar in that regard. That's the way I'm looking at it. So people are looking at this shielded Bitcoin stuff as something that is kind of like a mixer where you can hide tracks, but it's doing it using another way of doing it. The authors say structurally, this is closer to C-Cash than a traditional.

mixer. There are no operators here. There's no trusted federation. There's no, there's nothing like that. There's no centralized server. But before we say this is all great, number one, this is still very early in the research. You can't just simply download an app and get going today. This is just simply a formal paper that's been submitted. The exact mechanisms to get this bridge done, it still needs to be ironed out. Secondly, there's thoughts that the block space and, fees, they're going to go up. Because you're going to be pushing encrypted data and proofs through Bitcoin transactions, this is going to require more data that is going to have to be put on.

And as a result, there's going to be higher fees. You pay more for privacy. I have no problem with that. I don't think that's a problem. So that's basically where we are right now. And like I said, the first point that we're very, very early in the game, just keep that in mind. like this is something that's just kind of an idea.

They're putting it the pen to paper and let's see how things transpire are going from here. It may work out. It may not work out. There could be some bugs in it that we just haven't thought of right now. Once it's in the real world and people are actually actively using it, at least maybe they'll do it on a test net first. Maybe they can find some bugs and say, shit, this thing is not what it's claimed to be. But it's a good idea. But let's see what transpires for next little while.

I think this needs to be the focus of Bitcoin. developers at every level now, privacy. And I don't say privacy because you should be trying to hide your money from the government or trying to hide your money from your spouse. But I think privacy is going to be, it already comes at a premium. You know, you pay 10 or 12 bucks a month for a VPN. You pay 10 or 12 bucks a month for Apple IP relay. You pay, you know, 10 or 12 bucks a month for, you know, an antivirus thing to prevent

malware and spyware. And before you know it, you've got this suite of services available to you that are really just masking your online presence as much as possible. But you don't have that in money. And you certainly don't have it in Bitcoin. So what do you do? You got to try and find ways to make this accessible to every user at every level. Now, I don't suspect, I was going to say I don't suspect. I know for sure that like Coinbase, shake pay, you know, a handful of other exchanges.

products are not going to go the direction of we enable private transactions you can you know obfuscate your identity obviously get your wallets obviously get your your totals your inputs and your outputs like there's no way they're going to allow that but the users have to start pushing in this direction because the same way that we are trying to make privacy to default the government and the state and also private institutions by the way not just you know governments are trying to make transparency where it's not welcome the default for you um you see this every You see this on your phone. You see it in your TV.

You see it in your, you know, Sonos unit. You see it in your computer monitor. You see it in your fucking fridge, your microwave. Like everything is listening to you and gathering data and trying to make predictions about you and ultimately nudging your behavior a certain way. And I think most of the time, it's safe to say that if that data is not being used to advertise to you or push you to buy something, it's being used against you some other way. And unfortunately, in some cases, which we've discussed,

here and on on the EasyDNS show Access of Easy, the chances of that coming up in like a criminal proceeding are not zero anymore. Your Amazon Echo, your Google Chrome, Chromecast, whatever, like everything with a mic, including like your TV remote, that data is not anonymized. It's not just garbled ones and zeros. It's real voice data that gets sent to the mothership all the time. Bitcoiners, I think, understand this better than most. Obviously, the samurai guys.

are in jail right now and have basically no chance of getting out, sort of extreme political action and what would probably be wildly unpopular pardons from the White House. And so Bitcoiners, I think, are naturally responding to the pressures they're facing when it comes to privacy. The other thing, Len, that I think is important is because of what we talked about earlier, these wrench attacks being basically unofficially, at least, endorsed by state actors vis-a-vis honeypots of data that the government holds being sold to thugs in Europe, at least, probably other places too. That privacy is something that you may lean on to protect yourself, not only from repression of some kind,

but from violence. You don't want people necessarily knowing what wallets are yours and where the money is going and who it belongs to and why you're sending it. That's, I think, you're right as a free actor in an economic system. the question, the big question, two of them, obviously. One, like you mentioned there is you're still at the sort of cutting edge of this. You're on the tip of the spear. If you opt to try something like this with your own Bitcoin down the road when it becomes available to you right now, it's not obviously. But if it becomes available to you and you try and use it and you make a mistake, it's as unforgiving as every other transmission protocol this network has endorsed over time. If you fuck it up, it's gone. And the second thing, Len, is maybe more important, the pressure will come from governments to me. make this illegal. And one of the things we don't talk a lot on the show about is how important it is to learn, I don't want to say quickly, because quickly is not the right word, but like, pay attention and try and prioritize private transactions when they're available because you just

don't know when they're not going to be available anymore. Everyone who has like a bunch of coin joined Bitcoin probably feels good about it right now. Everyone who's used the world pool probably feels good about that Bitcoin right now. But both of those services are hard to use at the moment. People who bought KYC free Bitcoin feel good about that now. People who might have used Hoddle-Hoddle and started up a new wallet where they were paying cash for Bitcoin, they'd probably feel good about it. Well, Hoddle-Hoddle just launched KYC in Europe. They're being forced by the authorities there. So it's not about knowing how everything works at all times, but it is about knowing once something goes mainstream and is reliable, how can you use it

to anonymize some of your Bitcoin? That. I think is a key thing that many bitcoiners don't think about. They think about, you know, I'll do it some other time or once my, you know, once Ledger's app lets me do this, I'll do it. Once whatever, right? But this is the thing that probably a lot of people think. Let's face it, you know, chances are, then I wouldn't do it unless Sparrow knew how to do it. Like, I wouldn't be able to take this on on my own. I would rely on Craig Raw to implement this at the Sparrow level for me to do it with any of my Bitcoin. That would be the requirement for me as a semi-competent, semi-technical bitterner. But a lot of people,

People have to wait even longer and never get to do it. They never get to anonymize their toke. They never get to anonymize their corn, never get to anonymize their stack. And like they wonder then, well, what's the next thing going to be? As the pressure mounts from states and as the chilling effect continues to take a to take, basically to take bodies away in bags at this point, right? Like Keone and I can't remember the other guy's name. Like they're toast.

Like you're not going to hear from them again. Sad, but true. Well, they thumbed their nose of the government. But the likelihood, I agree with you, but the likelihood that more people are really willing to like put themselves out there as developers for this privacy stuff, it's going to drop. It's going to drop disproportionately. I think his time goes on. Maybe. And now I just want to go back.

If somebody does have Bitcoin, that's KYC and they do whatever they can to hide your tracks, it doesn't get rid of the fact that you bought the Bitcoin to be. begin with. Yeah. Right. Those records exist. If somebody buys hypothetically $1,000 at KYC Bitcoin, that record exists. No matter what you do with that $1,000 of Bitcoin, you mix it, you know, whatever

you lose it. The record show that you bought it. So that's always going to be there. So that's the real problem for some people is that KYC Bitcoin. And if you ever have something that's not KYC, then

you somehow intermingled it with your KYC stack. You're screwing yourself up in the long run. That KYC-free stuff, it gives you lots of more flexibility that if you don't have it to begin with. It's going to have a balance of the two, by the way, too. I think that's good to have some KYC, some KYC free. But what's a good ratio between the two? I don't know, or whatever you think is best for you. but I think having all of one or all of the other probably

if you're going to have all of something, it's KYC free. But, you know, it's hard to do that totally these days. So, but there are still ways to do it. You know, I don't want to go through all the different methods, but it's still possible to get your hands least in Canada on KYC free Bitcoin. And certainly explore those options, look into it, add that stack if you can, until you think that you're happy that you have enough in there. Because like I said, if you have you in KYC,

if you mix it, the fact somebody has those records that you bought it. And it could be just a matter of time before somebody gets their hands on it and takes action and wrench attacks. So that's just the fear. I hope that. But there's so much evidence out there that this information somehow just ends up in the wrong people's hands. You know, with AI out there. Over time.

Yeah. And you could find any sort of vulnerability in systems or people themselves, just being vulnerable in themselves. willing to sell that information like they did in France. It sucks. It really, really sucks, but this is the world we live in. So what are you going to do? Totally. I guess we'll do one last story. Sure.

Blockstream being sued by River. It's a funny story. It's kind of an odd one, right? Well, he's one. Corporate structure of Blockstream that basically not publicized at all, you know. So it's a, River is suing Blockstream Services, Canada, U.S. C seeking almost $7 million because of some of it because of a termination of agreement and other prepaid funds.

But this block stream came out today. They said block stream services USA and block stream services Canada. There have not been under the same ownership under the same control or the same management since mid-20204. It's crazy. So it's just different name, right? Like, it's just, it's funny. People are wondering, does this have anything to do with what happened recently with the liquid network exploit or could be something else?

It's just, you know, it's a name thing. I'm not going to make a mountain of a molehill here. It is what it is. It has something to do with mining and shit like that. I'm just going to leave it alone. I'm not sure if you want to add anything to it. Nah, not really. Something to watch, maybe for no other reason to see how the money flows at Blockstream.

if some of that stuff gets made public, but like as far as the suit itself, and that's, you know what? No, no big deal. Is the most, for me,

very compelling story here, at least not here, but with Blockstream, is the liquid network. Still to this day, feel free for you to correct me, anybody correct me, that it's still,

you can't peg out. You can't figure, yeah. It's been a few weeks, three weeks, two weeks, whatever that happened. Yeah.

And so, that makes you wonder yeah i don't know do they not have the funds to fully is there's there's going to be a bank run as soon as they open a door and say you know what you can start taking you know exchange your liquid bitcoin for actual bitcoin who's going to trust it who's going to say yeah i'm going to keep you know one sat even on there i mean it's it's got to be there's a use for that i mean we've talked about this a bunch whether there's been lightning or liquid or anything You can't, you're not supposed to leave a bunch of stats on there. It's like, you know, you want to go to a bizarre, Bitcoin Bazaar and spend, you know,

$100, put $100 on there. You want to do a quick payment to somebody for, I don't know, what's a good example of this? If you buy some coffee beans off of Otis Bitmire or something, like, okay, send them lightning or send them stats that way. But you can't. You cannot have any real savings on these things. You can't.

This is exactly why. Because then you get guys like Blockstream, this fly. I'm going to fucking burn my whole house down at this fly. I keep coming back. It will be dead at that point, I can guarantee you. It doesn't matter. I won't lose any stats, right? So this is the problem I think the block stream is going to have now is that suddenly things people weren't thinking about when it came to their corporate structure are front and center, right?

I mean, how else would you describe this? This looks like front and center to me. And River, to River's credit, like, I bet you River is like, these guys don't want any more publicity around this. Just pay us the money. We won't see you. No. okay well this is the worst possible time for us to publicize this you guys didn't really talk too much about it in 2024 here's the story now you you do damage control as if you're not spread thin enough already yeah well uh yeah their attention is uh focused almost entirely i guess on still the liquid network problem and they got to figure out that problem and they got to figure out sooner rather than later and i can't guarantee they'll be able to figure out to because somebody's going to have to fork out their hard-earned Bitcoin out of their pockets

to make it. Like I say, there's going to be a bank run, right? Nobody's going to trust this. Once they have the ability to make the ability for people to start exchanging their liquid Bitcoin for Bitcoin, I think everybody's going to do it. Just about everybody's going to do it. And it's going to be, do they have the ability to pay everybody? Could you imagine if they open it up and everybody or 95% of people decide to take out their

Bitcoin? and just like in the last two, three percent. People will pull for sure. People will pull for sure. Why wouldn't you? I mean, that's your incentive. They still have, like, I don't know what the number is. Like, it's more Bitcoin that's on liquid still than is on lightning.

But it's locked up because it's locked up. It's locked up. And we still don't know how much of it is user funds, how much of it is Federation funds. We still don't know what the, the hackers haven't released the, decrypted chats yet either, which I also am interested in seeing. all things that are on the on my sort of in my peripheral right now but i haven't forgotten about them that's for sure i think we should transition it's almost an hour to the dot we ought to because i am getting very tired i will tell you why after the break if you're with us on audio

come back tomorrow for the back after the podcast if we're with us on video if you're live we're not going anywhere we're just going to do a quick ad read here and keep ripping so we'll talk to in a second and use the stanley wrench