The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - CBP Classics - Cory Klippsten, Terra Luna Collapse

Episode Date: December 29, 2025

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The Canadian Bitcoins podcast is just two guys and maybe a guest or two discussing Bitcoin, Bitcoin equities, and the related macroeconomic space. It's not meant to be financial advice. So please, if you're doing any investing, after listening to our program, do your own research, do your own due diligence, and understand that any money you invest can be lost. The show is meant for entertainment purposes only, and we hope you enjoy the program. Friends and enemies, welcome to another episode of the Canadian Bitcoiners podcast, the Wednesday interview episode. My name is Joey here with my co-host, Len, as always, Len.

Buddy, how you doing over there? Nice extra addition there. Should we both show off the new digs here? Oh, what blockhead is it? What time is it in Russia? So we just give you a heads up, Joey, that he is coming in right now. I just sent him the information, so we're good to go. Okay.

So you've been ripped through the sponsors. We're sponsored by Shake Pay. Canadians to buy and sell. You should never sell Bitcoin. Great spreads. Cheap. Cheap spreads. Great app. Very clean. What do they got? They got shaking sats. Shake your phone every day. Get some stats right to your dome. Sats back cards. Spend off a CAD balance. Get 2% back on the first 5K. And then finally then they got the shake paid. They might comp you the whole purchase in Satoshi's not a bad deal. Our promo code CBP, use it to sign up, share it with your friends, all that good stuff. We got Carlo Campizi coming on Monday to talk about the new thing shake pays got going on.

I think they're going to release it next week or the week after. But in either case, you will hear about it from the best man bun in the business on Monday night, probably just around the beginning of the show. So who else we got that? We got one other sponsor. We'll probably talk about tonight, actually, now I'm thinking about it. Let in. And if you want to earn some yield on your Bitcoin or USDC, you could do so.

And just put your BTC or USDA on the leaden platform and you're good to go. And you could also borrow against your Bitcoin with Ledin, 50% loan to value ratio. So if you're looking to buy something, fill up your car or whatever. The price of gas is so expensive these days. So you could just do that with Lennon, and they also have the B2X. So if you want to think if the price of Bitcoin is going up and you're feeling lucky, you could double up your stack with B2X and you're good to go and you don't have to pay the taxman with that. And last but not least, they also have the Bitcoin-backed mortgages.

But make sure you take a look at their website, check the jurisdiction because they may not offer it in your area. But nonetheless, there's a Bitcoin-backed mortgages that Lennon offers, which is pretty cool. It's the first in the world from what I understand. So, yeah, there you go, Joey. Also, maybe just wait to buy a house. We'll talk about all these things with our guests. Corey Clipson's here, the founder of Swan Bitcoin. Recent embodiment of the Grim Reaper knocking on the doors meme. Corey, how are you? It's good to see you. Great shirt in Nakamoto State. How do you feel about the few weeks you've had, man? You know, I'm not a big magic eight ball or fortune cookie guy, but I doubt that even those enthusiasts would say that they've got a better track record with the stuff they pull out of a cookie than what you've been knocking down in the last few weeks. You've got to be feeling some sort of bitter sweet, right? You know, it'd be better if Bitcoin was already a million bucks a coin right now.

That'd be better. In my head, it's already a dollar. We'll get there. We'll get there. And yeah, man, I think it's important to have some people sort of performing the job of investigative journalism when, you know, the crypto press doesn't have that incentive. They never break a story. They'll pile onto a story after somebody else breaks it, but they have no incentive to break the story because those are the sponsors for their conferences, and that's their advertisers, right?

So that's not going to get it done. So it has to be either, like, you know, bloggers or, you know, people from in the industry or mainstream press, but the mainstream press isn't really caught up. So they're just like not going to be, they're not going to know where to look. Somebody has to point them and say, like, hey, by the way, Luna, anchor, UST is an obvious Ponzi scheme. you know, which it was when I looked at it for like 45 minutes in March, it was just staring plain as day that that was an obvious Ponzi scheme that was going to go to zero, just a matter of when. And so, you know, I don't have the best filter sometimes.

So I just kind of told everybody. Expand on that because that was part one of the second, like we have a second part of a rugpole coming out that's pretty monumental. But the first one was Luna. and Nostradamus would be jealous of what you're predicting these days. You're like 100% in terms of predicting these rug pulls. So tell us a little bit how you came to the conclusion that Luna is a Ponzi scheme. Did anybody bring you to light up for that?

Because in my eyes, it kind of slipped under the radar in terms of what it really is. But tell us a little about how you came to the conclusion what it really is, which is crap. Yeah. Well, I knew something weird was going on and I didn't know what when everything else in crypto, was basically red from November through like March and, you know, there was only one thing that was green, you know, most days, which was this, this Luna coin going up the charts. And I was like, what the hell? How is that even possible that, you know, a high beta alt coin that, you know, last I heard they haven't solved any problems. So why would it be going up in price?

So just kind of like filed that away. And then I didn't pay attention to it at all until, you know, they made the mistake of telling Bitcoiners that they were, you know, Bitcoiners. best friend. And they were going to be putting Bitcoin in their reserve, whatever that means, and, you know, doing something. So I was just like, well, that's an alt-corner saying something about Bitcoin and trying to use it in some way. 99.9% chance they're going to be full of shit. So let's dig in a little bit and see. And, you know, at least put out some skepticism. So I put out a little skepticism. I said, this is probably not good. Then I actually looked at it. I shot first and then backed it up, shot first the named, I guess.

And then I looked at it and I was like, okay, I can actually figure out what the game is here. And what it was is they created this protocol called Anchor, which seems like Doquan probably actually coded it himself. One of my classmates from University of Chicago, it turns out, was actually the GM of Terraform Labs and was running Anchor. It was kind of an interesting history there. He was an I banker, of course, before he got into a preschool. And I think he was an I banker after as well. Anyway, so what they were doing is saying, hey, park your UST at anchor for 20% APR, 20% interest. There's no free lunch.

So I'm like, okay, where is that coming from or why are they doing that? Well, where it's coming from is the anchor reserve. Well, who's providing that anchor reserve that's just paying out this 20% coupon? Oh, it's being provided by Terraform Labs themselves and Jump Capital, a big market-making OTC desk in the space. Well, why would they do it? Hmm. Why would they do it? Oh, because they granted themselves tons and tons of free Luna tokens, and Luna's market cap was going up as a result of the market cap of UST going up because it made dummies around the world think that there was a vibrant ecosystem.

building around Terra, Luna, UST, but really it wasn't. They were just bribing them. And they said, oh, well, we paid out $1.5 billion of interest, but it was really just marketing spend because we want to recruit people to this protocol. I was like, man, you could have named FtX arena, crypto.com arena, and had enough leftover for 12 Super Bowl ads. Like, I think there's better use for your $1.5 billion. So you must be completely full of shit.

And of course they were. And then you kind of dig into the mechanics of how it works. And then you kind of dig into the history of these attempts at algorithmic stable coins, and you realize that a decentralized algorithmic stable coin is impossible. That's an oxymoron. You know, the basis team tried it back in 2018, and they net it out. And these people are way, way smarter than Doe Kwan, who's just like a good schemer. You know, they figured out that it can't be decentralized because you have to have a centralized team

conducting open market operations if you want to try to maintain a peg, not that anybody's ever maintained a peg in history, let alone a decentralized peg to an off-chain asset when no one has ever solved the Oracle problem and you can't take off-chain data on chain without a trusted third party. So like, fucking crazy, right? Can I swear on this podcast? Absolutely. I've done so much mainstream media the last few days.

I was going to say, like this is a different side of you than I've seen on some of the interviews you've done last few days. But man, you're free to say whatever the fuck you want on this show, buddy. good because man i'm all like i'm all like bottled up too much ap reuters wall street journal i just yeah enough of that stuff back with my bitcoin or crew um so this guy this del quang guy uh he uh he creates a pseudonym for himself calls himself rick sanchise and uh and and basically steals the code from basis which they already said couldn't work launches basis cash under a pseudonym gathers up like 65 mill of a um it crashes it goes to zero he doesn't change

the mechanism. He creates the same mechanism and puts it on Luna. And yeah, basically same shit happened. So yeah, I was, you know, predicting the collapse. And then on the morning of May 9th, which was, you know, Monday five weeks ago or whatever, I happened to be on CoinDest TV that morning. And I said, listen, this thing is going to collapse. I don't know if it's going to collapse today or tomorrow or in a few weeks. And if it doesn't collapse, that's actually bad for everybody because it's going to get much bigger. And then it's going to collapse. and then it did collapse like three hours later. That's probably the closest collapse call in history, maybe.

Unless you count whoever was press secretary in the summer saying that Afghanistan was about to fail. But that's a story for another time. So, Corey, you know, you mentioned DeQuan there a bunch. One of the things that, like, you know, I think a lot of content creators struggle, I'm thinking about some of the people we've had on and who have wanted to come on over the year and change you've been doing this, you know, there's a lot of people we think are dishonest actors who we've turned down for whether it's sponsorships or appearances and whatnot. You know, so I'm curious as to how a show like Pompliano, you know, Best Business Show, for example,

brings a guy like Doquan on and doesn't do what seems to me and seems to a lot of other people now to have been rudimentary research into the sort of ecosystem that they were building over there and the problems with it. You know, what responsibility do you think that a guy like Pomp? And you don't have to focus on him. It's just the name that came to mind because he was sort of. sort of, you know, in the, in the ether when that whole thing went down, what responsibility you think these guys have to not only the ecosystem, but to their, they're really their viewers,

right? There's a lot of people who watch Pompeiano because he's one of the first shows that comes up when you search for a Bitcoin podcast or Bitcoin show. What should he be doing? What should other content creators be doing when this kind of stuff happens? What responsibility do they have before they bring someone onto their platform? Well, first I would say, like, don't give scammers your platform. So if you're sure somebody's a scammer, just don't give them an audience. If you are going to actually challenge somebody with, you know, an interview, then you need to do your research and be prepared to make it a contentious, challenging interview. The problem with Anthony Pompliano is that he only does softball infomercial interviews and basically just gives people

like an opportunity to pump their bullshit. So you can get like Zach from BlockFi, you know, lying about their product and just basically giving them. an infomercial. And this is like part of the pitch. If you let Pomp invest in your companies, you'll get his platform and be able to say whatever you want on his show. And that's why he gets like the discounted tokens or the discounted stock or whatever in these companies. And then the other thing is, you know, he wants crypto sponsors while still being like kind of in the good graces of some bitcoinsers that don't understand what's going on. But what he does when he puts crypto people like Hoskinson, Garlinghouse, Doe Kwan,

when he puts them on his show and features them and gives them that, free airtime and lets them basically run an infomercial with his softball questions. He's holding up a giant sign saying, crypto is welcome here. Please come sponsor me. Sofi with your shitcoins. Crypto.com with your shitcoins. Please, please, please come sponsor me. I swear I'm only going to talk about Bitcoin over here.

Maybe I'll hint at some tokenize the world or whatever. But really, like, you know, he is running a shit coiner platform. Masquerading as a bit coiner. Yeah, big time. And enough about the Doquan stuff, because the topic de jure is Celsius. And I really want to dive into this. This is another rugpole just waiting to take place. And this, I got to give you kudos here for calling this because you've been on Alex Machinsky.

I think I got his name correct. You've been on him. A ship is sinking ski. It's actually Muskamsky. I know it's spelled Mashinsky, but it's pronounced Muskamsky. Run with that. Somebody told me, maybe it was Skaminsky. It's either Skaminsky or Muskamsky.

I forget which one. Run with this. Why are you calling on this? Like, what's the background here and why is he what some people may call to be a scammer? What do you mean some people? The guy, the guy's literally ripped off so many people. He's been lying from day one, from the, from the marketing of his ICO. He's been lying about what they do and lying about himself for four and a half years ever since he got into the space.

So, you know, I don't think there's any redeeming quality there whatsoever. You know, like just start with his own personal creds and what he marked. and continues to market for himself around Celsius. Back then, it was, you know, I invented VoIP. He's not on the Wikipedia page. I raised a billion dollars for my companies. Not true. No record of it.

I had $3 billion of exits. Not true. No record of it. And I had the most successful IPO of 2004. He wasn't part of a company that went public in 2004. So like, I don't know, like, how this stuff even, like, how do you put this guy on CNBC? How do you put this guy on stage at the Bitcoin conference when he's like to such an obvious liar?

I guess it's because if you want to have like some crypto representation, like maybe he's not that different than all the rest of them. So like, you know, whatever, he's kind of par for the course. He just happened to run one that blew up, but most of the rest of these guys are the same. And, you know, with Celsius, like they represented themselves essentially as like a higher yield savings bank. The whole marketing angle, the whole time was him saying, banks hate you, banks are ripping you off. Banks could give you much higher interest like we do. They just don't.

They just keep it, ignoring all facts about how interest rates and market rates are actually generated. And the fact that, like, yeah, if we're in this, you know, this regime of low interest rates, so be it. Like, that's what they're going to give you. They're going to give you half a percent or whatever. And so instead, he just lured people in with these lies about what Celsius does. And their users are just unsecured creditors to Celsius.

Just like being LPs in the hedge fund, instead of making 80% of the profits from Celsius' hedge fund-like trading operations, you were paid like a small interest rate. It would be like us, you know, giving a startup all our cash for, you know, 8% interest and not getting any of the upside if it turned into Google or, you know, Coinbase or Snapchat or something. It is, it's, you know, it's terrible for the investors because, well, for two reasons, right? One, you mentioned Mishinsky and the kind of guy he's represented himself as over the last year, especially, as kind of that companies come into the public view. The other thing I would say is that it's really difficult for the staff at Celsius, people who, you know, really probably tied their wagon to his horse, so to speak, and the company and all that. And, you know, you're kind of seeing now layoffs across the board, not only in crypto, Bitcoin companies, but, you know, in the NASDAQ more broadly, I suspect as well, what would you say to those people? Corey, is this something that should, you know, is this something that people who are looking for jobs in Bitcoin companies or crypto companies should be looking at before they get hired?

It seems to me that this is so difficult because everyone needs a job. Bitcoin is such a hot space to work in. And, you know, he's marketing himself as someone who wants to be a positive actor. Obviously, it's not true, but it really sucks for the people who work there. And so I've seen you post a few things about, you know, people bringing their coins off of that platform and whatnot, what would you make of, you know, the exodus of the staff there? What should these guys be doing next? What should they be looking at before they put their resume in another company? Yeah, I mean, you just got to think about like what you actually

want to work on, what do you want to do with your life. And I think a lot of people, they like Bitcoin. And for some reason, that makes them think that like crypto is somewhere close. I started saying in like, you know, 2018, when I was trying to figure out something to do in Bitcoin, I was very open saying, like, number one, I'd like to work in Bitcoin, ended up having to start my own company to do that. Number two, I would like continue doing angel investing and advising as I had been for, you know, seven years or something. Number three, maybe go work for a big, you know, consulting company again or start my own consulting company. Number four, maybe go work for a big tech company. number five maybe open a restaurant and somewhere down like number 94 would be like work in crypto like you're not close to working in bitcoin if you're working in crypto you're actually

working against bitcoin like yeah i would say like even three or four years ago i think that you know bitcoin's biggest enemy was probably still you know like governments and banks or something like that. I think it's very clear that at present, Bitcoin's biggest enemy is crypto. It's Andreessen Horowitz. It's Ethereum. It's actually them against Bitcoin. And they can only exist. These altcoins can only exist if they seek to and are successful at being co-opted and sucked into the banking and government system with all three of those parties working contra Bitcoin. So, you know, these are not your friends. You're not a Bitcoiner. If you're working at a shit coin company, sorry, just not.

You know, you can be like better or worse. There are obviously people that like Bitcoin and try to do good things for Bitcoin while they also enable shitcoinery. And, you know, there's people that kind of walk that line. Like, you know, Cracken is dramatically better than Celsius, for instance. Jesse Powell is like an OG and I'm not going to besmirch his name. He's tried to do all kinds of things for Bitcoin. And it's fucking hard because they've been around a long time.

they've got a big team and they got a big valuation. And the competitive pressures are that if you don't add the shit coin token, the users leave and they go to finance or Coinbase. If you want to keep the thing alive and keep trying to do good things for Bitcoin and hire Pierre and Dan and Clark and all these good Bitcoiners and do it, I can understand. It is tough. But I'm just really hopeful that over the next few years,

the Bitcoin-only industry continues to grow in that people realize they can make careers and make good money. and have big successes, I hope we start to see some really big successes of the Bitcoin companies, you know, going public and, you know, having big exits and just like being really big and really successful without having a resort to chiquinery. Corey, in that vein, before we move on to something adjacent to that, you mentioned there that the biggest enemy now is crypto, Ethereum. I think you're right about that.

We talk about that on the show all the time. You know, I do think, though, that there's at least some potential for this to be a wedge in the door for regulators, especially in the United States. States to say, look, we got to do something about Bitcoin and crypto and equate the two for the sort of uneducated masses and garner support in that way. You know, I don't know how big a threat that is. I'll be curious here what you think compared to, you know, six months ago where the regulatory, you know, the regulatory burden was uncertain, maybe a little cumbersome for a company like

yours or other companies in the space. What do you think that threat looks like now? What's the next six months going to look like after the last, you know, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks of just disaster after disaster? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's funny that you mentioned it. I think I tweeted yesterday. Hi, journalists. Bitcoin is not part of crypto. Feel free to get in touch. Contact info in my profile. And I got hit up by like four or five journalists. And I'm doing NPR from that among other smaller things, which is kind of cool. But that is something that people are wondering about and they're like trying to figure it out. They keep hearing from Bitcoiners, the louder we are. And the more we just like not just pussyfoot around it and say like, hey, they're different asset classes. And these ones are more like venture capital. and Bitcoin's Bitcoin, like, ah, fuck that, man. There's 20,000 tokens historically that are not Bitcoin. All of them are either not going to make it because proof of work networks tend toward one

or their proof of stake, which centralizes over time by definition. It requires governance, power and money to get more power and money, and it centralizes. So that alone just shows you like there's only one horse in the race here. And then it shows in the numbers, you know, there's 20,000 tokens historically. Only one out of 20,000 has ever hit an all-time high in Bitcoin terms, and then three or more years later had a new all-time high. Every single one of the other 20,000 tokens is bled out. Only Dogecoin with its, you know, sort of meme stage, not quite a pump, you know, four years ago.

And then Elon pumping it in 2021 has the designation of actually having a new all-time high in Bitcoin terms. I have to give you credit because just doubling back, you've been helping out a lot of people, we'll call them Bitcoin refugees that have been let go from their companies, their exchanges, their respective exchanges, and you're trying to help them find jobs, which is absolutely fantastic. But something else you've been doing previously, you've been trying to get people to take out at least one Bitcoin and prove that from Celsius. And you're also- From any exchange, by the way, from any, literally any crypto exchange, if you sell, if you can just show me screenshots, black out, whatever you need to do, there's a little bit of honor system. Obviously, somebody should grab somebody else's if they wanted to. But like, if you go through that effort and you show me that you have sold a Bitcoin's worth of shit coins for Bitcoin and then taking it off the exchange into self-custody, we'll give you a year of free membership in Swan Private Client Services. Run with that.

Explain exactly what is the Swan Private. So private swan, so like that? Yeah, yeah. Swanprivate.com. Just go check it out, pop open another browser and keep listening to us. But, yeah, swanprivate.com is like our concierge level service for high net worth individuals and family offices and corporates around the world. So serve people in over 100 countries. We launched that about a year and a half ago. And it's really zoomed up and become a huge part of our business and kind of what we do.

We've got a bunch of the smartest bitcoins in the world that actually understand client service as well, handling these people, answering their hard questions. helping them set up like trusts, inheritance planning, multi-sig setup, self-custody, wallet, advice, like all that kind of stuff, like really hand-holding people. You can hit these people on like phone, text, email, WhatsApp, telegram, you know, whatever. These guys are like your Bitcoin guy. It's people like Stephen Lubka down in Florida, Dejambola Hoddle. You guys might know from Clubhouse and Twitter, Stefan Leveras on that team. He was obviously just amazing.

Alex Danzik, who's our host for Cafe Bitcoin Monday through Friday on Twitter spaces, Dante Cook, Ryan Flynn, there's just like awesome guys that really sit there and help you out and coach you through this stuff. So I love that business unit. There's nothing like it in the world. Let's talk about Swan, Corey. I mean, I think a lot of Canadians maybe don't know enough about Swan. Because to be honest with you, I think speaking especially as someone who's part of a show that's, you know, at least was geared toward new Bitcoiners when we started about a year ago. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of our listeners and viewers hadn't really heard your name or the Swan brand before, you know, the Luna blow up. So tell us a bit about Swan. You said you

started the company because you wanted to work in Bitcoin, not the other way around, which I always think is a, you know, an important piece. But yeah, tell us a bit about the history of Swan. Yeah. So to pull on that a second, yeah, it's something that I think alt-coiners, do a lot of projecting when they speak and they say like you're just talking your book because they're obviously talking their book because they like created the bag and now they're shilling the bag and they're hoping to dump the bag um it's very different with bitcoiners bitcoiners usually fall in love with bitcoin and then it just like takes over like a mine virus and you know they either start something or they you know get lucky and get a job with a bitcoin

company and they're super excited to uh to be in there so so yeah Canada is one of the the countries that we serve. What we don't have is hookups with the banking system. So if you're just looking to pay straight out of your bank account and do that easy hookup, then definitely just use Bull Bitcoin, man. I'm like the biggest Francis fan. I love Bull Bitcoin. We've never really marketed in Canada because y'all have like an OG version of Swan that's like even more cypherpunk and badass than we are. We're kind of like Bull Bitcoin's little brother. So I think you guys are good to go. If for some reason, like, you totally fall in love with Swan and just hit it off with us and you want to make larger purchases, then you just use wire transfer.

And that's how we take funding outside the U.S. from all over the place. We actually will be adding both SEPA and I think. So SEPA will cover most of Europe and we should have that in a few months. And then we'll also be adding some kind of integration with transfer wise, which basically should cover everything else. So it'll at least drop the fees quite a lot. but you're still not going to be being able to take, like, you know, from your bank account, at least for small purchases in Canada or the UK and a few other places, you'll still be better off with a local, a local company, ideally a Bitcoin company, you know, Coin Corner over in the UK and Bull Bitcoin, Amber down in Australia,

something like that. But yeah, we serve Canadians. We've got a bunch of Canadian customers, but it's mostly for Swan Private and a lot of corporates. I have to ask, are you going to be, or have you integrated Lightning or do you plan to integrate lightning to your service? Yeah, we're doing a lot with lightning. I mean, I don't know if you know Pablo F7Z, Pablo Fernandez on Twitter, but he's like a huge lightning buff and hangs out with all the lightning people and travels around the world to conferences and stuff. So he runs Swan Labs, which is kind of like our edge tech dope shit unit.

Anyway, so we are doing lightning payouts already for some things, like some of our referrals. I think that's in beta for Swan Force. And then later this year, we're actually building a lightning wallet into the Swan app. So that'll be pretty sweet. And we're also rolling out an on-ramp with a bunch of partners before our app is even out where you will be able to take straight from your bank account, summary and swap straight to a lightning balance using the Swan API. So that's going to be pretty sick. And a bunch of partners are kind of launching with that, like Fountain, the podcasting app and a bunch of other ones. Yeah, we're fans of Oscar Marion Fountain here for sure.

Like that guy does great work and that's a great app. We always say, even if you're not streaming sats, support the app, use the app as your podcast app for sure. Corey, you guys take very seriously the education piece at Swan. So you mentioned Cafe Bitcoin. You guys host that space every day, every day to week, or I think it's just Monday to Friday, I should say. Monday through Friday, unless Alex really feels like clocking in on Saturday, which does happen

sometimes. Sometimes I'll wake up and I'm like, we're fucker. He's back on again. That's what I kind of got to have on your team, Corey. And then you guys also have this, this, you know, sort of, of all the exchange people, and onboarding platform folks that we've had on, there hasn't been this, you know, sort of Bitcoin Canon section on any other website that I can see.

So again, if you're listening, go to the Swan website, check out the Bitcoin Canon website or the Bitcoin Canon section. You got some stories and articles here from truly like a who's who of Bitcoin writers and speakers and thinkers. Brandon Quitem. You got Odell here, Lynn Alden. Guy Swan, obviously, whose idea was this and how important is this to you guys? I think this is really a huge sort of initiative that you're undertaking here.

It's great for new bitcoins and people who sort of, you know, especially during weeks like this and last, forget why they're in it as the price is dropping 10% a day. You know, where did this come from? Yeah, so there's a lot of good marketing ideas in crypto because they have to be really good at marketing to sell shit coins. And so Andreessen Horowitz had the the crypto canon, which was like their compendium of like shit coin marketing pieces dressed up as research. And so like usually one of the best things you can do is like you take something in crypto and you get rid of the shitcoins and then just do it for Bitcoin. So it's like, you know, if pump crypto jobs launches, get rid of shitcoins and you can do Bitcoin or jobs.

If Andreessen Horowitz has Crypto Canyon, you get rid of shit coins and you launch, you know, the Bitcoin canon. If Coinbase is full of shit coins, you just get rid of the shit coins and you launch Swan. It's actually quite easy as a formula. So, yeah, the Bitcoin Canon, basically it was my idea, and I named it and the whole thing. I pretty much do all the naming of most of the stuff at Swan. But it's not something that people hadn't thought about before. I know actually Brady and Pablo and Destruct, who's now at Lightning Labs, they had worked on a product back in, like, 2017 called Bitcoiners Best. maybe not 2017, probably like 2019, but it was kind of a similar concept.

And it was just they were using, I think, lightning to like upvote and downvote, you know, Bitcoin content pieces or something like this. I thought this was kind of like a simpler way to do it. So we just selected like curating, just saying like, hey, at least we who have looked at this, not saying we're perfect, but we're going to grab the 600 best pieces or 600 of the best pieces of educational content about Bitcoin from all of history and use that as the foundation to start building products on top of it. And the first one was the canon, which basically, as you noted, it lets you create a rabbit

hole on a specific topic. So it could be Bitcoin 101. It could be Bitcoin in energy. It could be Bitcoin in privacy. It could be like Bitcoin in freedom. Could be like fucking Bitcoin and diet, you know, something like that. And then there's an author of it, which could be a company. It could be a person.

It could be a nonprofit. It could be whatever. But they actually in sequence, you know, put the podcast episodes, the tweet storms, the blog posts, the book chapters, whatever, the videos, YouTube videos, in order that they think is like a good course or a good set of materials on a given topic. So you can go deep dive. And that's what we call a rabbit hole. So you can go down this rabbit hole. Which one are you looking at there? This is a political economy of decentralization. So this is the format you're talking about, right? Alan Farrington. Yeah. So there's Alan. So he did like a video introduction and kind of takes you into

like a journey of, of badassness through the mind of a squirrel. That's a joke. He calls himself as well. Alan is like seriously like one of the top three or four smartest people on the planet in the Bitcoin world along with like Gigi and a few others. So yeah, so I love the canon. And then so in that compendium of these resources, that's also what you see for me every day in my newsletter. Corey.com is me introducing one of these pieces. And that's also what I put on LinkedIn every day.

and my tweet storms every day are basically just one of the pieces from this compendium. And V2 of this is going to let anybody come in and actually make their own. So we've just been kind of recruiting, you know, bigger names to come and do theirs and kind of putting it together on the back end.

But the V2 of this tool, and you can actually like click some of the buttons and you can see like you can green one of those and say, oh, I've read it most peaceful revolution by Nick Carter. Oh, I've read VJ's, you know. And so you can start to like fill it. in your timeline and, you know, prove to yourself that you finished your rabbit hole. So all these resources are their audio, their text, their video, they're all manner of

media made. That's incredible stuff. And you guys are doing some work with, as someone in the chat just mentioned, you guys are also bringing on, and you just said as well, some real heavy hitters, breed love, Napunella is about doing some stuff for you guys. What's that all about? Yeah, I mean, we've been developing hard money. the first national network quality news show on Bitcoin that literally first episode shot yesterday

and I think it airs either tonight or tomorrow on Bitcoin Magazine's YouTube channel. That's been in development since November. So she's been on contract with us for seven months, I guess, getting ready for this. But it's ready and it's really good. We built Swan Studios in Malibu on Pacific Coast Highway and got like the network quality cameras. We got ABC news producer in there, you know, moonlighting and doing our show on Tuesdays. We've got like another network news script writer who's super into Bitcoin and, you know, writes the stories with Natalie.

We got Brecky and Oceans and Adam Hurley, all like accomplished filmmakers. You know, Brecky and Mike are both, you know, film and fine arts grads from Penn a decade ago. And they were friends together then. So they worked really well together. So yeah, we're starting to produce some like really high quality stuff out of that studio. And I think this show is going to be really, really good. Yeah, hard money launches this week. If there's any opportunity to send them up here, let them, you know, come here to film us

because we have some projects we got to get on film. This is the lowest budget operation. I want to double back to Celsius because there's a few things that I just want to touch upon with you. Yeah. There's some liquidations that may be happening in next little while. And this would be devastating effects to the shit coin market and potentially even the big Bitcoin market as a whole. And I'm wondering if this does go down and Celsius goes tits up. Ultimately, will this, like Normie's eyes, like with the perspective of a Normie, would they look at

this and it would give, would this leave a black eye in the eyes of the Bitcoiners community? Because by association, sometimes they see the shit coin market go down and they kind of associated with the bitcoins as well. Do you think Normies would look at this, see Celsius go tips up and say that shit. Bitcoin too, it's, you know, it's not as safe. it could be. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if it matters. Like people that don't actually understand Bitcoin don't usually come in in size and

don't hold anyway. So it doesn't really matter. I think it's much more important to take those people and spend time with the ones that are willing to learn and that are going to be like real advocates for it and that are going to go much deeper on it. I think the kind of dumb money, the dumb money and the small money doesn't make much of a difference. it's probably responsible for like, you know, the last $2,000 of, you know, a price pump.

So like, you know, the week of December 17th, 2017, if there wasn't like super dumb retail money, then the peak is like 15 or 16K instead of 19K. Yeah. You know, so that last little bit, they just, they catch that giant green wick at the very end and then immediately like lose their shit and then, you know. So when it comes to. You know, sort of in the same vein, Corey, you guys are doing a lot of work, as you mentioned, with sort of a white glove, a white glove demographic, right? You guys have that suite of services for people who are already wealthy, let's say, to be able to park that much money in Bitcoin, which, you know, we talk about on the show all the time. It's sort of a, for a lot of people, a luxury investment option. You know, what do you tell people who, I would guess invariably ask you questions like, why this instead of the more tax-efficient ETFs, why this instead. instead of the more tax-efficient options in the mining space.

You're on the riot advisory board, I think, still, right? So, like, what do you tell those guys? Because that's one of the question that we get a lot. I know I get a lot of my personal life as someone who's been in Bitcoin for five or six years. You know, why the asset, why not this other thing that's adjacent and moves the same way, you know, with a little bit of leverage, I guess, depending on the day and the month and the year and the price of the underlying? But what do you tell those guys?

Those guys are more familiar with the trad-fi markets more comfortable there. How do you bring them over to our side? Just asking if they're familiar with operational risk. Has a company ever screwed up and gone under before? Bitcoin can't screw up and go under because of the actions of like one or a small group of people. So as much as I love, you know, riot and core scientific and micro strategy and all these, you know, sort of Bitcoin-related stocks, block. which used to be square, you know, at the end of the day, you know, you're requiring on their, on their, you're relying on their execution and you're relying on their standing vis-a-vis

of the governments in their various jurisdictions and their ability to like, you know, toe the line and advocate for Bitcoin while not pissing off Vanguard and BlackRock. You know, like there's, there's a lot of issues, a lot of extra risk tossed in there with these other products and you don't have that when it comes to Bitcoin and then you also get all the real benefits of Bitcoin like holding your own keys and being able to actually transfer it

like you actually can own your own money for the first time ever. Why wouldn't you want to do that? So I think you just got to teach people about Bitcoin hope the light bulb goes off at some point and then they can't imagine doing it any other way. And now you could just point them to Celsius. And another one we might be able to point to

is three arrows capital. There's some smoke. here is there a fire behind it too like i want to hear your thoughts on this yeah i mean listen they were they were getting liquidated and they probably lost a ton of money and they may stay alive we'll see i don't know i don't know i don't know i actually don't know a lot about three hours and like who else's money they put to work or if it's mostly their own money um or and i don't think they even have like any way for like retail people to have exposure to three hours capital so it's very, very different than Celsius in that way.

Rumor is there's quite a few funds that have been liquidated in the past few days. I heard that from one of the reporters over at Blockworks was picking me earlier and said there's going to be plenty of news here in the next few days. But yeah, they were the only bigger bet on Ethereum 2.0 launching someday than Celsius. So they had played that bad of, you know, putting tons and tons of converting ETH into Steph, which is like an ETH derivative that people hoped would stay one-to-one pegged, but, you know, started to lose the peg because, say, it's been four years since ETH was supposed to launch ETH 2.0. How do we know for sure it's launching in July or September or next

June or, you know, 2032? I'm not sure when it's going to launch. I don't think anyone is, Corey. I think there's a lot of Atheads out there who are banking on this thing to both pump the bags they have and also a lot of people who are holding Ethereum from the last few years that are waiting for that is an opportunity to get out at a better price, especially after the last few months. So, I mean, I don't want to keep you out all night. I got really two more questions for you. One is a technical question. The other one is to give you a little bit of shit in your personal life and have a little fun at the end of the show, which we always do. Hold on.

I got to get yawn on conference call for the technical question. My co-founder, Jan Pritzker. The question, the technical side of this, okay, when it comes to the ETH, the next little while for Ethereum, what is the worst case scenario for them if they cannot pull the merge off? Do you think? I'm speaking in terms of both the network itself and also the price of the asset as a lot of these exchanges, for example, are kind of tied into this merge now, too, I would guess. what do you view this as what do you view this risk as for ethereum do you have any view on that are you guys in toronto we're close yeah you're close to toronto yeah i was wondering why you know anything about ethereum i feel so bad for you like you probably like coffee shops

this day honestly i honestly i truly don't give a fuck like it was so broken as proof of work and it's about to get so much worse as proof of stake like they're literally dooming themselves by moving to proof of stake. Like, this thing will never be decentralized, you know, in any meaningful way. It's about to become Solana or SQLana as is more accurately, SQ Alana. I don't know, man. I just like they've made themselves completely irrelevant. So I think, you know, B Cash and Doge really are the only competition for Bitcoin now.

Be Cash and Doge. Okay, Corey, you've been great. We appreciate you coming on. Last question for you. Shout out Ravencoin. What up? And Raven, of course. Yeah, yeah. Ravencoin. Yeah, that's a throw. I held that. I held that bag when I was, when I was a shit pointer in that first year. I had some Ravencoin. It was my second to last sell. Isn't that a, that's an easy to mind, isn't it? Some Bitcoiners liked Ravencoin, and I bought a bag and wrote it from like two cents to five cents. And then I sold it for Bitcoin. And then there was, the last one that I sold was sometime in 2018 because I think Marad liked it. And a bunch of Bitcoiners seemed to like. Rod, what the fuck happened to that guy?

Do you remember decred? Yeah, of course. Yeah, so that was literally my last shit coin bag that I held before realizing there was no point in doing anything but Bitcoin. What happened to those, the Marad and his brother, right? He had a brother and they like ran some kind of hedgy or fake hedgy or something. What happened? No, no, I've heard that name forever. It was real.

It just didn't quite work out. They're making Richard Hart's clothes, I think, right now. No, no. They were just young. I think being right with your TA calls is a lot different than actually operating across these different exchanges. They had a lot of operational risk because it was their first time doing it

and they just didn't do well. I was an LP. I lost money there is what it is. They're smart guys, but they just didn't have the chops and understand the market structure and how to move coins from venue to venue. And they just weren't really prepared for a night

like March 12th, 2020. And they basically crashed down that night and basically decided to give up instead of trying to claw back out of it, which sucks. They should have given it the college try. I would have much rather have them, you know, try to get back. But, you know, they just didn't feel up to it. Is what it is, right. Corey, you got a bit of an athletic background, I understand. Do I have that right?

I mean, amateur. I'm an amateur. I'm a professional enthusiast and an actual amateur. sure. You're posting videos of playing basketball. Yeah, you're a little bit of a hooper are you? You got some other stuff going on? I do hoop. I was probably better at tennis. I like basketball a lot better. What's your, what's your rank in tennis? What are you, what's, are you 4.05, 4.5. I mean, I guess I probably would have topped out at like 5.5 or something. Oh, that's really good. I mean, I'm 6'4 with a huge serve and a huge forehand. So I don't actually have to be all that skilled to beat somebody. You're a roundage. Right? Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, just one of those guys that just thumps it, you know, always win your serve. And if I can get one break, I said, I'm good. If not, go to tie break and you'll win on there.

Yeah, something like that. I'm just a pusher up here in the left panel. That's right. Listen, my backhand is a push, so I'm a slice of the backhand guy. Do you think if I put you in a parking lot, asphalt parking lot, gravel parking lot, some, one of those two. And I put a finish line, checkered flag, 40 yards away. Okay, you're wearing your best pair of running shoes, favorite pair of shorts, whatever.

And next to you is Jack Dorsey, who has a little more hair under his lip and a little less hair on top of his head than you. He's pretty wiry. I don't know how tall he is. You think you could beat him in a 40-yard dash? Definitely. Yeah. But not any sort of like mental competition after the 40-yard dash. It's strictly physical.

You know what to play chess with him after. I just want to see if you can beat him. Yeah, I could beat him in a race, but not a, not. a chess match and and you know the thing is like that doesn't go for like games of skill that take repetition because the smart guys I have I've lost so many games of like pool and fucking ping pong and flippy cup and shit to people who are like terrible athletes but they're like really smart and they like to master things and so they just get like incredibly good at these like drinking games anyway there's a trader friend that I had in Chicago in my

single years and we'd always like you know party at one house or the other like before going out and this dude would like just never lose it darts never lose it cornhole never lose it ping pong never never fucking lose it fucking anything that was like can we please just go play some basketball not before going to the bar no fucking way man yeah exactly uh Corey clisted founder swan where can people find you I don't as if I even have to ask tell them something though handoff is all yours uh listen man get me in your inbox every day Corey dot substack.com It's a good place to go. It's like pump substack minus shitcoins.

And Corey Clipson on Twitter, swan.com, and come to the Pacific Bitcoin conference in Los Angeles, November 10th and 11th. It's actually L.A. Bitcoin week. So you can come for the entire week. And then the conference is Thursday and Friday. If you work at a Bitcoin company, we got you 7,000 square feet of office spaces at the conference venue. So just hit us up. We got fast Wi-Fi. and we'll all be kind of hanging out and partying and doing activities and cutting deals and stuff for the three days leading up to the conference.

And then, of course, like, you guys have to do the setup and tear down. I'm just kidding. We have a production company. But, you know, but yeah, we hope this becomes kind of like a staple on the circuit. You know, hit Miami in the spring. Come hit L.A. in the fall. Catch a little bit of that late summer. Bitcoin magazine is the media partner.

They're bringing the volcano desk. All your favorite Bitcoin companies will be there. And again, no shitcoin speakers, no shit coin sponsors, just bitcoiners, 3,000 bitcoinsers, nobody else. That's the right way to be, man. Corey Clipson, thank you for your time, sir. We appreciate it. Take care. Thanks for coming, everyone.

Chat was popping. We'll see you guys when we see you. All right. Thanks, guys. Cheers.