The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - Cove Bitcoin Wallet w/ Praveen Perera - The Simple Way to Bitcoin

Episode Date: March 28, 2025

FRIENDS AND ENEMIESThis week we welcome friend of the show Praveen Perera, the founder of Cove Wallet, a new wallet coming soon to Bitcoiners everywhere. Praveen will be sharing the things that make this wallet simple, secure and more.https://x.com/covewalletDiscover the easiest Bitcoin wallet on the market, Cove, and why it's a game-changer for Bitcoiners. In this review, we'll dive into the world of Bitcoin security and explore how Cove's innovative approach to cold storage is revolutionizing the way we think about financial freedom. With its user-friendly interface and robust security features, Cove is an attractive option for those looking to upgrade from traditional hot wallets. But what sets it apart from other hardware wallets like Ledger, Trezor, and Tangem? Join us as we delve into the world of BTC analysis, crypto tips, and hodl strategies to find out why Cove is the perfect solution for anyone looking to take control of their crypto portfolios and maximize transaction efficiency. Whether you're a seasoned crypto expert or just starting out, this video is packed with valuable insights and information to help you make the most of your digital assets. So, what are you waiting for? Dive in and discover the power of Cove, the easiest Bitcoin wallet on the market.Join us for some QUALITY Bitcoin and economics talk, with a Canadian focus, every Monday at 7 PM EST. From a couple of Canucks who like to talk about how Bitcoin will impact Canada. As always, none of the info is financial advice. Website: ⁠www.CanadianBitcoiners.com⁠Discord:   / discord   A part of the CBP Media Network: ⁠www.twitter.com/CBPMediaNetworkThis show is sponsored by: easyDNS - ⁠⁠www.easydns.com⁠⁠ EasyDNS is the best spot for Anycast DNS, domain name registrations, web and email services. They are fast, reliable and privacy focused. You can even pay for your services with Bitcoin! Apply coupon code 'CBPMEDIA' for 50% off initial purchase Bull Bitcoin - ⁠⁠https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/cbp⁠⁠ The CBP recommends Bull Bitcoin for all your BTC needs. There's never been a quicker, simpler, way to acquire Bitcoin. Use the link above for $20 bones, and take advantage of all Bull Bitcoin has to offer.

Friends and enemies. I don't know if it looks this way to you guys, but I was watching some clickbait YouTube channel the other day that I won't name but I name all the time. And the guys when the show goes live are like waiting, they're looking in the corner for the streamer thing to go live and then they hit you with the clickbait like yelling. We'll never do that here, but I do have to wait some time to see if that thing goes live before I start talking. Anyway, solo tonight, at least for the time being, as far as Len is concerned, but I am here with Praveen Perera,

co-wallet developer. I don't know if he's a software engineer. He's definitely engineered this thing. It's not every day that we preview, show off some new tech in Bitcoin that I get excited about Len is the one who talks about nodes And other nonsense all the time I really don't care most of the time but I love a good wallet and I'm so sick of blue green wallet sucks And I think this one might be my go-to certainly on my phone. So we'll get to all that first though the sponsors You guys know you love them easy EasyDNS. Mark and team been friends to the show for a long time. Just saw Mark yesterday actually, gifted him a CBP minor. Lots to talk about on the EasyDNS side. I don't know how to change my thing here. Anyway,

it doesn't matter. The EasyDNS service is basically the best place for you to either buy, host, port, use, register our services. Mark is the friendly neighborhood registrar. He's got everything there, including domain, sure. So when you sign up for a domain, no one from some unknown third world country hacks you, claims to be Coinbase, claims to be your mother, claims to be your father, whatever, grabs your user data, grabs your client list, spoofs your email server, all these things. You don't want that if you're hosting a website, hosting a service, running a business. Mark, make sure it doesn't happen. And then obviously for the Bitcoin enthusiast of which there are many watching this show, you can do anything

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in this country. And as they expand to the rest of the world, I think it's safe to say for the rest of the world as well. These guys are led by a group of extremists, one of my most fun group chats. I won't say it's the most fun, I'll say it's tied for first with another one, but these guys, you know, for a Bitcoin company to go all in on self-custody when no one else was doing it, huge. For a Bitcoin company to go all in on living on a Bitcoinody when no one else was doing it, huge. For a Bitcoin company to go all in on living on a Bitcoin standard

when no one else was doing it, huge. And not to mention they have great spreads, very low fees, privacy by default with their tools on every buy. And as I mentioned, should you be one of these people who wanna live on a Bitcoin standard, do so over there, not just with gift cards, man. You can go there, use bills to pay your mortgage, your credit card

statement, your cell phone bill, everything but the bar tab you skipped on last night, which you can't beat. We have a promo code. It's in the chat. Go there, sign up if you haven't already. Crazy if you haven't, but if you haven't, get $21 pumped into your account. Praveen Pereira is here. The maxis Maxi, the, I don't know, what else should I call you? You're the dev of Cove Wallet, hilarious Praveen's camera not focusing. He's working on it.

He's deving up a wallet, but he cannot dev up a proper camera setup. His mic is also muted, I can see, hilarious. Just completely discombobulated, unprepared. What's going on, buddy? Good to see you. Hey, I don't know. I don't know what's wrong with my camera. It's kind of crap right now. God, let me try and get this thing figured out. Geez. In the meantime, Praveen is looking at that. I'm going to pull up the website for Cove

Wallet. If you haven't heard of Cove Wallet yet, you ought to have. It is the wallet that is simple but not stripped down. And Praveen's been working on this for some time. We've been fortunate at CBP to be able to actually see some of the stuff he's been working on behind the scenes. And I think this is really good stuff. I have it on my phone. I will admit that I have not sent any sats with it, but I have messed around a little bit. It's clean, it's easy, and it's free as well, obviously. I mean who's charging for this stuff? But Praveen, like you know, when you started working on this, like there's a lot of people who fucking bitch and whine on Bitcoin Twitter, as you know. It's like the home for bitching and whining about UI, about software, about hardware. You

got major corporations bashing each other and pretending their friends like, you know, NVK and the ledger guys. And you got, uh, you know, the folks over at blockstream talking about how the Jade is improved and then they send out the second version of the Jade. It's just as dog shit as the first, like people are just not, they're not really improving, implementing, doing any of the things people are asking for. You started doing this, like why'd you start doing this? What made you think you could finally do something better

than what these guys have been doing? Honestly, it was kind of, I basically made this for myself, I think, if I think about it. Because, you know know on the computer, I use Sparrow like probably most people at this point. Sparrow is great, right? Is that what you use?

Yeah, oh yeah. And on my phone, I basically use green. But use with green, use was just like being able to look at the transactions transactions because I couldn't actually send transactions because I can't There's like no coin control. Right. And I can't use it with my cold card tab sign or none of that. Right. So and that so I was just kind of surprised like As I was using Bitcoin more, I didn't want to have to go to the computer every time to basically send transactions to someone You know everybody has their like cold like deep cold storage wallet that Bitcoin only comes in and like I think that's how most people start right

And for that yeah, just use Sparrow just do it on your computer But as you get into Bitcoin more and you know actually start using it more then you kind of come into the situation where like hey you know I like to use it with my phone maybe with like QR codes with the cold cards or NFC whatever and I don't want to have to go to my computer every time so that's kind of how I came on to it and and like I'm not doing anything crazy I'm just supporting supporting all the Bitcoin like standards you know like PSP tees the different bits and and the biggest thing is just trying to make it easy for

people and I think I have some experience with that just from just kind of helping people get started with Bitcoin, you know, you kind of know where people struggle and it's good to know people like Plate who need need need help. I love a good stray on the show. Okay. So no, he's been, he's been super helpful with, with the feedback. Like, well, cause you need someone not to like pick on him, but do you not need newbies or people who are just not crazy about their setup?

Right? Like everyone kind of knows how to use Sparrow. Sparrow is the, I would guess the cream of the crop for like desktop wallets. But again, like I want to think about the mobile wallet landscape. There's nothing really good. Nothing really stands out. Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah.

He's, he's helpful because like, it's kind of like learning something new. Sometimes the best people teach you is, um, someone's helpful because like it's kind of like learning something new that sometimes the best people teach you is Someone that just learned it because like as you become an Expert you forget what what you struggled with when you first started, right? so I've been trying to get more new people to give me feedback not just like experienced people and Yeah, that's that's been helpful. Okay, so what have you... So give me just sort of the rundown here of what you've done besides the making it simple. We talked a little bit about coin control.

You're supporting a lot of the standard, like the Bitcoin standards, overused term, but we'll use it here. And then you also support some cold card stuff. I'm going to... I'll cop to that we spoke this morning. You told me to import my X pub to Sparrow. I didn't do it because I had a busy day and now we're going to talk about it instead. But you've obviously like done some stuff here that other wallets you think are either not doing that well or that could be done better

on mobile, adding some functionality. Give me the rundown. Yeah. So, um, just one thing is just try to make everything as easy as possible. Uh, try to get rid of all the, just try to get rid of all the unnecessary menus and stuff like that, for example. So let's say you want, if you had imported it, like I told you, you would have seen, um, basically there's a few ways to import it. You like, you can, you can go in through the menu and say add a wallet. But the easiest way, what you can do is if you go back to the first screenshot, just scroll up. Yep, okay, hold on here.

Here we go. That's right, yeah, so you see that QR button at the top right? Yeah. So that's basically like a catch all button. You can scan any QR and Cove will figure out, basically any QR and it'll figure out what to do. So if you go, if you scan an address,

obviously it'll take you to send some Bitcoin. But if you were to import from your cold card, you know how there's like a bunch of different formats you can import from? Yeah. It'll support any of them. So you select any of them like just don't think you know Just go through it pick one scan the QR and it'll import it Just little stuff like that like try to take out as many like decisions and thinking as possible like

You know Okay, so here. Let's do it. Let's do it live on the air. I have a queue I'm in the menu here on Sparrow on a second screen. I'm in the export on the settings for that queue wallet, that tab. Can I do it without having the hardware wallet with me? Yeah, you can do it through Sparrow. Okay, so export file, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, you could go through the file, but you could also just scan the QR directly. Okay, so which one do I pick? There's like a bunch of different options here. Electrum, Electrum personal server, labels, output, blah, blah, blah. Some of them have the show option. Like I'm assuming that's the, yeah,

that's QR code option. Yeah, so from Sparrow, the way I usually, I think a lot of those should work because of the formats are the same, but on the Sparrow, if you go to the wallet, you go to settings. You see in the settings, there's's a couple subheadings that go settings and then script policy and so the descriptor. If you hit that QR there.

Tools. Okay. Wait a minute. File settings. No, not file settings. Just in like, just that blue. On the side menu here. Okay. Yeah The descriptor policy or script policy descriptor. Yeah, there's a QR. Yeah, just hit that. Ah

At the bottom it just says show BB QR you learn something new every day. Yeah, and and I'm sure the other ha Look at that that fucking worked right away Wow, I mean that is impressive stuff. That's great. Okay wicked Yeah, so, um, we do I mean we do a lot of um, I do a lot of lot of little things like that Like something I've noticed is like, you know people go through the cold card menus and it gets to like, okay Do you want? Like P2SH do you want legacy like everyone's like what the hell is this right? Yes. Yes T2SA, HD1 Legacy, everyone's like, what the hell is this, right?

So, an example of what we do is, if you go on ColdCard and scan, I think, the JSON, basically that gives you, for all three address types, we'll try to best guess what you want. And 99% of the time, you're probably using a BC1, like a SegWit address. So we'll put you in that wallet and like scan for transactions,

but in the background, we'll scan for transactions on the other two as well. So for the 1% of users that are actually wanting a different wallet type, if we find a transaction, we'll say, hey, you got addresses in the other ones, which one do you wanna pick, right? So that's kind of, these are very specific examples, but I'm trying to get you like,

get across the think thought process behind this. It's mostly like, try to keep things as simple as possible. Try to avoid like questions. Try to do the 90% thing like like right away But always have like escape hatch for the people that wants to do something more advanced or something weird, right? So even like even the send flow right now, we don't do coin control But there is like there is a way to do that But it's a it's a little hidden like I I don't want to confuse new users with like, hey, now you have to choose

which coins to send, right? But if you know about CoinControl, you'll know where it is, basically. Yeah, okay. I'm gonna try, I don't know, I guess I probably can't send with this wallet now, right? But yeah, but this is like the send menu. See, this is the thing for me,

like I've been in Bitcoin a long time, but I'm not like a technical expert. To be honest with you, I don't know that much about the technical side. You know, the sort of rationale for the BC1 addresses, you know, was difficult for me to pick up at first. Like I didn't really learn about SegWit and all that in detail until ordinals came around. And you know, like looking at the style of this wallet and sort of the breakdown of, you know, what you're saying, this idea that most people need to get 80% or 90% of what ends up being the most commonly used Bitcoin methods, get

that right and make it easy. And then people will stick around. I should mention you got a grant from OpenSATS. Did you not? Yes, yes. Thanks. Thanks. OpenSATS. I mean, without them, I couldn't be able to do this because Wow.

I've been doing basically full time with this for the last, well, almost how long has it been? Like nine months now. That's crazy. So like they, so when they gave you the, the grants, you know, what was the rationale for them? Cause I mean, they must have a million people knocking on their door doing projects that are, I don't want to say similar because it kind of cheapens what you've been able to pull off here, but they're doing similar stuff. So what was the rationale? What did you tell them when you said,

look, I'm the one who deserves this grant, not these other clowns, not these other posers and losers. It was me that deserves it. My pitch was basically the same pitch that I had for you. I think this idea is really simple, but not a lot of people are, I don't think a lot of people are doing it because it's almost too simple.

It's not flashy, it's not exciting, it's not lightning, it's not layer two. Right? OpenSats, they do a lot of work grants for background kind of work. That's kind of the core, other stuff is built on, making lightning better, a lot of stuff like that. And basically anybody making a wallet right now

is not making an on-chain wallet, right? Let alone for mobile. If it's a mobile wallet, it's gonna be a lightning wallet, right? So I kind of, I feel like what I'm zigging when everyone's zagging, whatever that term is, because I'm coming in and I'm saying explicitly, we're not doing lightning, we're never going to do lightning.

We're not doing any layer twos. We're not doing liquid. This is just on chain. So, um, yeah, so I, I think it ended up being like a unique proposal, um, because it's in some ways boring. Yeah. Do you think, okay, so you're, you're sort of planting your flag on a number of things that would upset my absent co-host.

He's big on Lightning. A lot of guys are big on Lightning, honestly, Praveen. I look around the landscape and I see people talking about how layer two is the reason we're going to be able to manage transaction fees and still pay minors. It's going to help us get to Nirvana. We're all going to get girlfriends thanks to lightning or whatever the meta meme is that week. Do you really think that you're just going to go full on chain forever?

Like I don't, I've not heard this from a wallet. In fact, to your point, when I think about the wallets that are out there, blue, uh, green, uh, there's probably others that I'm not thinking of. They're all now leaning into this other stuff. And even there's even, you know, I don't want to brag on Cold Card, but you know, I think Cold Card even thought about or maybe has support for stuff like ordinals, right? Like really flash in the pan, short-lived kind of popular uses for Bitcoin. And you're going the other direction.

Like, are you willing to, are you really willing to plant your flag there? Why are you willing to plant your flag there? Yeah, I mean before that I don't know about the cold card stuff I think maybe they have like the sat chip thing like where you can put it into art or something That's right. You're right. If anything, that's kind of like a statement against like This is stupid digital art shit, right? But yeah, I mean I don't want to give the impression that I hate lightning or I'm against lightning against like this stupid digital art shit, right? But yeah, I mean, I don't wanna give the impression that I hate lightning or I'm against lightning. I like lightning.

I usually just use custodial lightning. I've helped a bunch of people with lightning nodes and it's always a mess, right? Like it works until it doesn't and then like if you're not technical, you're going to have a hard time, um, figuring out, but that's kind of here and over there. Um, I'm not against lightning wallets. I'm I like, right now, my main lightning wallet is probably primal, uh, the NOS. Oh, really? Okay.

NOS or, um, the NOS rap. It's just, um, yeah, I just, I just wanted this to be really focused, right? Um, it's just, yeah, I just wanted this to be really focused. Right? It's just like, I think simplicity comes from focus. It's not that I don't like Lightning. It's just the less things it does, the simpler it can be. If someone's coming in, they don't have to wonder, like, do I want on-chain Bitcoin?

Do I want Lightning Bitcoin? Which one is it? It's, try to take away as much thinking as possible, Like do I want on chain Bitcoin do I want lightning Bitcoin? Which one is it? You know, it's Try to take away as much thinking as possible is what I'm thinking So yeah, and I mean, yeah if Bitcoin is a succeed someone like people are always gonna need an on chain wallet, right? If I like you might not be paying for you're not gonna be paying for coffees with it But like, you know, you know, on chain is going to be used. So it's going to, it's going to need a wallet. Um, I don't know. Does that answer your question?

It's not that I hate it. It's just, I really wanted it to be focused, right? I think it's a good answer. I, the reason I ask is because like, I look at my own experience again, like I only have myself, my own experiences to draw on. I hear what other people say. And I, you know, we, we get people in the chat and stuff saying, you know, it'd be nice to have this, nice to have that. Great example, this node that Len put together for me. He's got the best of intentions, but the UI is intolerable. The node sync process is embarrassingly bad for an asset that's worth a trillion dollars.

You kind of go down the line of all these things that are problematic. And you could make the case that the reason these things are problematic is because people are trying to be too clever by a half. We have to use Linux, we have to use knots, we have to sync full nodes instead of pruning, we have to do lightning,

we need to have all this functionality. The only functionality I think you need is for the thing to fucking work. And in Bitcoin, it's true that a lot of people come to Bitcoin who are technically savvy. At least that was true for the first to fucking work. And in Bitcoin, it's true that a lot of people come to Bitcoin who are technically savvy. At least that was true for the first 12 or 13 years. Now the people coming don't know shit about Bitcoin and oftentimes don't know shit about cryptography, GUIs.

They need stuff that just works intuitively. It has to look like a COD menu. It's gotta be that easy, otherwise they're not gonna stick around. And I like that about this wallet. Even like just now I was kind of comparing it to the the blue wallet interface and the green wall interface. I don't know how you use green wallet without unaliving yourself. I think it's a terrible product. I think this like even syncing to a jade is a terrible

experience. The blue wallet is fine but it's just too busy. There's too much shit going on on that screen all the time. There's no real indication. Again, from a user interface experience, if you consider what the iPhone or an Android looks like, everything is obvious. There's signs that things are clickable or functional or give you menus. Meanwhile, in the blue wallet, everything is basically clickable, has a hold function, but you don't actually know that until you try. And then I look at yours and what I see is like some care paid to, okay, here's what this thing does. Like the QR, the QR code. It doesn't matter if the QR code is to import a wallet watch only. Like I just did in one

go, no problems. Or is it a send address or a receive address? It gives you the prompt. I try to receive address from one of my other spare wallets. Right away this thing asked me if I want to send. And you know I'm looking at this now, it wants me to back up my wallet. You know I haven't obviously written any of the seed words down, but it's you know that kind of stuff is invaluable and it's just not present anywhere. Everyone in Bitcoin is talking about, in my opinion, like I would say the wrong things a little bit and it sounds like it's your

opinion too and maybe also the opinion of OpenSATs. So why don't we, maybe we'll move from the why to what people can expect from this wallet in terms of functionality. You mentioned coin control. Maybe, like we don't talk a lot about this on the show, but maybe but tell people maybe what coin control is and why it's valuable as a Bitcoiner that you exercise coin control when you're doing transactions. Yeah. Honestly, before I get that, I kind of want to expand on what you're saying because I think I'm like, maybe this is a grand goal, but like here I'm hoping Cove does really well, obviously, but then I'm hoping people will take inspiration from that and do stuff like that with Bitcoin.

Like, I mean, like Umbrell is a pretty good example of paying attention to user experience and stuff, but I think we need more of that. Like, Bitcoin, yeah, I think it's because a lot, it started with a lot of technical people. They have the, you know, things you'll hear all the time. It's like, oh, what think it's because a lot it started with a lot of technical people they have the You know things you'll hear here all the time is like oh what lightning's easy. Oh running a note is easy You know, what are you talking about? You know, but like that's just like that's just technical people sticking their heads in the sand It's not easy. Like I don't care how many times you say it right like the fact that there's a

Market for umbral like note in a box means it's not easy it's not a nice experience. Like there was this argument with the Bitcoin all caps and Stefan Lovera about like he's you know, Bitcoin all caps is all about. Yeah, just run your own note on your laptop and like we're trying to tell and let's like we get it. You can do it. You know, like you you run Linus whatever and it's like, yeah, you can do it.

Is it a nice experience? No, no, you know, so I, I do think we need more. Um, I don't know, just like more Apple like user. People don't want to hear that. A Praveen, like when you, when you tell them that, like even on this show, like Len again, like he's not here to defend himself, but we talk all the time about how I shouldn't have an iPhone. And I I'm just like, why the security is what you know

Is it 1% worse than graphene OS and the user experience is 1 million X more more pleasant everything just works better I don't have to worry about the shit freezing up or everything being a shitty Android port from an iPhone original app like But it's hard to explain that to the Bitcoiners. God bless all caps. I've seen all caps at meetups Pint in hand setting up notes for people. He doesn't know on laptops So like he's he's all in like it's not an act And I I think a lot of people should appreciate that attitude from him But yeah, it's just not for everyone and not only that but like listen I know that a lot of bitcoiners are not married, but I really can confirm it

By the number of bitcoiners who think that their wife is just going to be cool with this fucking 20 year old laptop disk spinning all day long. What are you doing? I'm verifying the supply. Like, no, your wife doesn't want to fucking hear that. You need something that's like at least somewhat aesthetically pleasing, aesthetically defensible in your house. It's not going to be good for you otherwise.

I had to turn the fan off on my stupid raspberry pie Because it was too loud for the wife On that note I've been I've been trying she's like my first test subject for the wallet because I'm like, okay like look at the Screen, what do you think it does? So, uh, if it works for her, I think she's a good first, first pass for sure. I love it. Um, yeah. What was your, what was your question though?

Well, we, I want to, I want to ask you like why, or like what's next. You talked about coin control. I, you know, I'm curious, what else can you do with a layer one wallet? It seems to me like you would, in any other case, iterate functionality as Bitcoin expands functionality or whatever, but I get the feeling there's not gonna be too much more on layer one on this thing, maybe I'm crazy, but that's the feeling I get.

And you don't wanna do layer twos, so you got the coin control stuff coming. What else you got coming? What are you thinking about adding? So the thing I'm working on right now is Tapsigner support. I've been working on it longer than I thought, but I mean, I have screenshots I can show you. Send it, send it.

Are they in the stuff you sent me today? No, no, but I can screen share. Yeah, yeah, do it. Let's do it in a bit, but yeah. Let me just answer this question. I think the main thing is I'm okay with this being done. That's the other thing. People make software and they're always trying to add to it

and like blah, blah, blah, do, keep at it. Like how can we innovate? Like whatever, it's an open source product. Like I'm okay with it one day being done. But that being said, there is a lot to do. Like yeah, so the big ones are CoinControl and Tapsiner, SassGuard, and then I want to,

someone contacted me that they're doing another NFC type wallet. So just different wallets to support. Right now, QR codes, I support BBQR because basically I use cold cards like I always have. So obviously I'm gonna Support the ones I have first but some other wallets use a standard called you are so I'm gonna support that What is that standard? What is the difference sir?

I it's just another basically animated QR code standard. I hate I do not like it right I BBQR I was able to understand in like 10 minutes. it's super simple, it's like grug brain, okay, like this is like, UR, there's like a deprecated one, there's like a version two, I don't know which one is using, like it's a bunch of shit. I tried for like an hour, I'm like, okay, you know what, I'm gonna push this off and do other stuff first and then come back to it.

But then there are like two things that I'm thinking of that I'm pretty excited about. Have you heard of PayJoin? Yeah. Yeah. So I want to add like, I want to see what that would look like. PayJoin for people who don't know, you can correct me if I'm wrong, it's a way to hide senders in a transaction, right?

Do I have that? Or recipients in a transaction, I should say? From what I understand, it's like doing a coin join on a transaction like so if you're sending if I'm sending you coins we can like we can like basically create a transaction where we're both sending each other coins and like a part of it goes to you and the rest comes to me so it kind of just like Obviscates a lot of stuff. No, I think I've heard a lot of like it's best if like exchanges do it

I think because I since they sent to a lot of people I think can kind of mix those good okay, not too sure been busy with this but I knew because this recently was that this pay join version two 2 thing came out yeah that's like it can work async so you don't have to be online the whole time so I'm looking into that and I know Francis and build Bitcoin guys I think they might have sponsored that or like they yeah they did I think they use it or are thinking about adding it yeah so I think the more Wallace and more exchanges that support that that'll be great so that'll be number one the other thing, I don't know if you've heard of Joinster.

I also want to look into that. No, it's basically a coin join using Nostr. Right. I liked that. So basically, Nostr has the coordination. Uh, so want to look into the, Hey, can I add this to mine? And the other one would be a silent payments. Um, Joinster. This is, this is intriguing to me because there's a lot of sats want to look into, hey, can I add this to mine? And the other one would be silent payments.

Joinster, this is intriguing to me because there's a lot of sats floating around on Nostr, right, it makes sense to have some coordinator there. Join, join steer, join star, join stars, S-T-E-R. I don't know, it's probably not gonna be the first result on Google, but. Oh, here it is, yeah, decentralized clone join implementation using Oster, yeah. Ah, okay. Right, so that'd be cool if we can add it to that.

Yeah, and then silent payments, I think, which is like the other standard, it's like pay names where basically you can reuse addresses. So, you know, there's a lot of different BIPs like that. People are still innovating on on-chain and a lot of privacy and stuff. So, I think there will always be a couple things to add, new wallaces support, that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's basically where it's going next. Also, the big, big thing is right now I only have an Apple version or iOS version, so next couple months I'm going to be working

on the Android version. Are you thinking about doing desktop? I kind of go back and forth on this. I don't know because Sparrow is really good. It does a lot, so like it's not the most user friendly, like just because it does so much. Like, you know, like the people that start with Ledger, Ledger Live is like, you know, just dead simple. Unbelievably easy, yeah. So I think there's like, there could be like a market there,

but I don't know. Yeah, honestly, you gotta ask me in a little bit. I there's we'll see how this goes, right? Here's my thing. My thinking is like if you're really new and you don't want Something complicated you might just end up using your phone anyway, right? So cove is there as you're ready to move on and like Learn about more stuff and you want to use the desktop I think Sparrow is still like a great option for that right and so right now mostly what I want to really focus on is trying to make it easy to use with Sparrow like for example you know how you can do labels

on Sparrow yep so I made it really easy to import those labels into Cove. So I talked to Craig and he actually helped with this because what he did was he added a way to export the labels as as BBQR. So you can get the labels onto your phone with just scanning a QR code. So that's gonna be my focus basically. Why do you think, this might be out of turn, but why do you think Sparrow never opted for a mobile wallet? I wonder that a lot,

because even if they stripped down the functionality, it would still be, again, in my opinion, better than most of the stuff I've seen. What do you think his thinking was, Craig Ross? I'm not sure, but he's also a one-man shop, right? It could just be, and it's a lot of work what he's doing, because he's also, right now he's keeping up with all the USB connection stuff, so he's supporting basically all these wallets, and they all talk to through the USB interface differently. So it's a lot of And like he it's not stripped down at all. Right? So he supports Multi-sig wallets side. No, that's another thing Cove will not support. We're not gonna do multi-sig. Okay, right?

It's only gonna be signals single sake. So I just think like he's he's a smart guy and he's like, you know I don't want to speak for him. But like if I had to guess it would be like Sparrow's like Sparrow on desktop is great. You know, it's taken up my time. I don't need to I don't need to try and expand into other stuff. I'll let someone else handle the mobile and I'll just make the best wallet for desktop. I think you're probably right about that. That's the that's the thinking that I would have. But I want to get your opinion. wallet for desktop. I think you're probably right about that.

That's the thinking that I would have, but I wanted to get your opinion. You're obviously 100 degrees closer to this than me. You've talked a lot in the past, not necessarily on the subject of coal, but I've known you for a few years, been a few group chats. I often see you talking about security and protecting your Bitcoin, ways to protect your Bitcoin and some of the vulnerabilities that may or may not creep up with some of these wallets and wallet interfaces. Talking about the cove security, people I think generally, Praveen, are hesitant to use a hot wallet on their phone. Bitcoiners, guys like you and me,

I think who have been around long enough to see all these things happen. hot wallet on their phone, Bitcoiners, guys like you and me, I think who've been around long enough to see all these things happen. And God knows, most of my vulnerable moments, my phone is available. I'm drinking at a bar, I'm sleeping, I'm playing sports, my phone's in my bag at the gym, my phone's on the bench or something,

I'm not looking at it. People, I think, correctly, assess the phone to be a place where you shouldn't have a wallet and shouldn't have any Bitcoin. You're obviously trying to get people to change their view there if that's a view they have. So maybe two questions, right? Maybe one, why should people consider having some Bitcoin on a hot wallet that's a quality hot wallet? And two, what security measures did you take to make sure that in the unlikely event that the cardio bunny snatches your phone while you're hitting two wheels on the bench, what

are you protecting them with? My tongue-in-cheek answer for this will probably be the number one security feature that I put into Cove is really good hardware support. Because with green wallet, you're probably going to use it as a hot support, right? Because with green wallet, you're probably gonna use it as a hot wallet, right? Like, because you can't use it as a hardware. So one of the major goals of COVE is just like, let's reduce the total number of hot wallets,

not necessarily increase it, right? So by giving, by making it really easy to use with a hardware wallet, I'm hoping like you won't need to use it as a hot wallet. So obviously a hot wallet, at one point I even considered doing this as a cold wallet only wallet. Wow. Okay. But decided against it because I still want a good top of funnel for people new to Bitcoin. So so the idea is you know, just create a hot wallet on your phone, but get into some kind of

Harbor wallet as soon as possible like, you know tap signers super super easy super cheap and Yeah, I've seen people being like I would never use my wallet on a phone which is true if you're on a Hot wallet, but if it's on a phone, which is true if you're on a hot wallet, but if it's on a cold wallet, if you don't have your hardware wallet, it's just a watch-only wallet, right? You can't do anything with it. So yeah, but then long-range for security is, I'm thinking about that a lot. Just following best practices, just encrypting the seeds that are on the device. Another thing I might wanna look into is like,

I wanna see if I can, like encrypt the hot wallet with like a two-phase keys, like for people that use it, or like with a pin, so like the unencrypted, like it's not, you can't access it without a pin, for example. That makes things harder. And then my thinking is if I'm going that halfway, I might as well just say use a tap signer because that's kind of what it's designed for, right, to use with a mobile. And hopefully more people come out with this kind of stuff.

But some other interesting features, hardware security features I have is I have a white me pin. So if you have a pin, you know, zero, zero, zero, zero, you can add a new pin, one, one, one, one, for example. Let's see, I'm gonna fire it up. Yeah, it's in settings. Yeah. So you gotta create a pin first. Yep.

So create a pin, and then, so there's a, right now I have two trick me pins. There's the decoy pin, and there's the wipe me pin. So wipe me pin is if you, you know, someone's like give me your fricking money, you put in the wipe me pin, it'll delete everything on Cove and it'll log you in to an empty wallet basically.

This is very good. This is a feature that Cold Card also has. So I've done this on my device here. You can see my wallet, Cucumber Water. And then down here, now that I have the pin, there you go, the Wipe Me Pin enabled. That's great. So you can actually just put that in,

decoy pins, Wipe Me pins. You use Face ID. Do you have an opinion on Face ID? People don't like it as a security feature for this kind of stuff. Where do you come down on that? It depends. So if you use a decoy pin or a Wipe Me pin,

you can't use Face ID because that doesn't make sense, right? Like you don't really get a chance to enter the pin. If my wife's face unlocks it, then it deletes the wallet. That could be a feature, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that'd be cool if Apple lets you do that. But yeah, so decoy pin, as you can probably imagine, is like you can have a complete different set of wallets in the decoy pin, as you can probably imagine, is like you can have a complete different set of wallets in the decoy mode.

But yeah, Face ID, I like the option. I know if you're going across borders and stuff, they can force you to give up your biometrics, but they can't force you to give up your pin. So that's an interesting thing. But if you wanna use it, it's there, right? Like I don't wanna take a hard line, so it's like maybe some people only have like

some like cash while it's on there and like a couple hundred bucks, just like let me unlock it with my face, like all right. Yeah, I do, I kinda like Face ID, but I do also sympathize with people who have concerns But I mean for your uses you're right the pin is kind of the important thing much like the cold card devices much like I Think maybe Jade does this I don't know if the current model ledgers or treasures do it

but this like decoy pin I think is pretty important because You know if you do get into a situation where someone has you and the device, then you have to have a way to at least buy time or pretend you don't have the Bitcoin you said you had or whatever. So it's kind of a difficult situation. You find yourself in it. You need that option. This is a quality product.

I think if I look at the interface, I look at the wallets you've chosen to integrate as far as the cold card and all the CoinKite products it sounds like along with a few others, it's quality. Now the natural sort of next question is, are you going to integrate some of the not so popular wallets amongst Bitcoiners? Can you even integrate them? Stuff like the Ledger Trezor, I don't know what's another one, like the Keystone. There's a handful of these wallets that are sort of

1BB type with their own set of problems. Even stuff like the new XYZ wallet, the Block Wallet. What is that thing called? I forget now, it looks like a stone. Oh yeah, I forget. I can't remember. But people, I mean, in my circle anyway, and it sounds like yours as well,

it's basically coin kite or die. Are you ever gonna try and make these other wallets compatible with the product? Do you want to, do you care? Or as a developer, are you on a mission to make these other wallets obsolete, and part of that mission is making sure that they don't work with Cove? Or as a developer, are you on a mission to make these other wallets obsolete? And part of that mission is making sure that they don't work with Cove.

What kind of mission are you on? No, no. I definitely want to integrate with other wallets, but the way we're going to do it is I'm not integrating anything specific. Even with CoinKite, I'm not working. I think the only thing specific I'm integrating with CoinKite right now is the tap signer, because that's a very specific thing, right?

But everything else, if your wallet uses PSPTs, we can use it using files, right? You can move. If it uses bbqr qr codes, you can use it with Kove. So I think another wallet that uses bbqr, qr's is crux. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's like, I can do it yourself wallet. Okay.

And then, so later when I support, uh, you are qr codes, the UR format, then I think that will, uh, that will bring in Jade support, uh, passport, I think, um, tab what's the, what's the one that they run on, um, I don't know. That will bring in Jade support Passport, I think Tab what's the what's the one that they run on? Like a like a raspberry pies Seed signer seed signer. Yeah, let's support that. So yeah, so I'm gonna support like the like standards

So it's gonna be be PSP T's BBQ are you are so if your wallet uses that it's compatible So this is interesting PSPT's, BBQR, UR. So if your wallet uses that, it's compatible. So this is interesting. I didn't realize that there wasn't too much proprietary tech in these wallets in terms of integration with software. Is this the case for most of the wallets, all the wallets then? Yeah, so if it's a wallet you plug into USB,

I know a lot of that is proprietary. So a lot of Craig's work and a lot of people do work on the, I know a lot of that is proprietary. So a lot of like Craig's work and like a lot of people do work on the, there's a, I think it's called HWI hardware wallet interface. Okay. It's maintained by, I forget who it is, but basically that, it's like, it supports all these wallets

and like all their like formats are a little different. But when it comes to like air gap support, there's not that many standards. Right? So there's like, you need to either, there's only a few ways to move the BB, like the transaction, right? Usually it's in like a PSPT form. So you can move it with files, you can move it with NFC, or

you can move it with QR codes. PSPT for people who are not keen on this is partially signed transaction. So a Bitcoin wallet, like cold card, for example, especially if you're air gapped, maybe only if you're air gapped, half the transaction will happen on your cold card. Then you take it out, you sign it on your Sparrow wallet or vice versa. I should say you start the transaction on your Sparrow wallet, export it, sign it on your cold card, bring it back and then broadcast. So it's like partially, it's like half signed by the software, half signed by the hardware,

and then sent out on whichever device is internet connected. Yeah. I know it's called partially signed, but like the, I don't think the software wallet like doesn't actually do any signing, right? Cause like private key is, is hard. So what would you say it does? Just kind of like create the, like it initiates the trend trend the first bit of it is that it like I don't know how you describe it it basically puts the transaction together right so it's

you're basically saying I'm moving these UT UT XOs yeah oh the fee structure is in there so you're basically saying yeah you're basically saying these are my inputs and these are my outputs right because that that's the entire transaction Just inputs and outputs and then you give it to the hardware wallet and you say sign it Basically, I like it. I think this is a great product Do you want you want to tell people anything else before we go like I asked you today? If I could get in the test flight, I don't want to guarantee people a spot in the test flight but if you have that app, maybe you can keep an eye on the, on the Cove app in there and see if Praveen opens up a few slots. But if

I miss anything Praveen, like the floor is all yours, man. Tell people more about it, more about where they can find it, like dates. I don't know. Is this thing even in beta yet? Like what is the version number here? Yeah, it's, it's in beta right now. Uh, there's plenty of spots open now. I started with like 25 but I think there's like 150 people in it now So I upped it to 250. Ah I'm gonna put the link in the YouTube chat here and I'll put it in the show notes, too Yeah, I can I can show you screenshots if you want. Let's do it. Yeah, let's look at some stuff So I'm working with a designer

Like it's basically just me and then designer part-time. Um, as I see other things, there's a lot of ugly or there was a lot of ugly. Um, software in Bitcoin. How do I share this? All right, here you go. Yeah, it's, it is true. Like you need a somebody with an eye for, you know, color and things of this nature.

Okay. So let's see what's out here. So shout out to Adrian. He actually, uh, he's, he's a Canadian as well. I met him when I was there. So like I've known him for a while. Um, so yeah, he's been, he's been helping me. Um, okay.

So let me show you. So this is basically if you're, have you used the tap signer before? I have seen one used, but I don't own one myself. Okay. So this would be, um, basically you would be, basically you tap the tap signer to the back, this is what I'm working on right now, so I'm showing you basically, there's a starting pin in the back, so you give it that,

you get your new pin, and basically, then you take into a new wallet, right? I think the one I wanna show you is Coin coin control, which I'm working on next. I, Adrian, me and Adrian are working on this. I love the coin control UI. I think Sparrow's coin control is so good, but the UI still leaves a little bit to be desired. Yeah. So, I'm pretty proud of this, what we came up with.

Let me know what you think, right? So basically the way it will work is we're not going to let you do coin control through the normal send flow, because we want to keep that like really simple. So we're almost going let you do coin control through the normal send flow because we wanna keep that really simple. So we're almost gonna have two different send flows. So if you wanna do coin control, basically you're gonna have an advanced screen where you can see your UTXOs and this is what it would look like.

And from here you can just search. You can search labels, amounts, dates, that's wicked, okay., and you will be able to, what's it called, order, right? You pick the ones you want to send, right? So here, continue with three, whatever. And then from there, from that set, you can decide exactly how much you wanna send, right? So whatever, and then, yeah, that's pretty much it and then you get to take into the normal send screen where it shows you how much you're sending, where you're sending it to,

and yeah, basically the wallet you're sending from and nice and stuff like that. And so that allows you to, so when you're done, okay, so maybe the, can you do, are you gonna put any privacy functionality in this, like CoinJoin, any of that stuff, down the road? I know this was popular for a long time, I don't know how many people are still using CoinJoin for every transaction, but.

Yeah, so I know CoinJoin right now is not, like nobody's running a coordinator, that's why I'm looking at joint sir Because I guess there's no course I I need to look into it more But yeah, if if I could integrate joints or that'd be cool for sure. I like this idea This is it looks great Praveen. I gotta say like you deserve some kudos and some congratulations It's a it's a well-designed product. Thank God. You've decided to work with a designer like some of this shit Online, it is just unbelievable. I saw this, this like iPhone, not iPhone, Apple Watch fee widget, and I wanted to try it out the

other day. So like on your phone, instead of my watch constantly telling me that my heart rate's fine, it'd be nice to see like what the transaction fees are. It is the ugliest thing in the world. And you go to the app store and look for more stuff related to Bitcoin. It's ugly It doesn't work. The stuff is like it's it's half-assed half-hearted and seems to have like, you know No passion for the project and then I look at this and I think like why can't everything look like this? It's a dark mode already. Everything is colorful is clickable. It's legible You know the kerning on the text makes sense little stuff like that that you just don't see in a lot of other apps. So you've done great work here.

Honestly, props to OpenSats because they're sponsoring the designer as well. So it's a part-time one. But basically, I mean, the reason is not a lot of developers, including me, are good at design. I can look at the design and know if it looks good or not, but I have no idea how to How to make it look good. I think I have an example. So Adrian like worked on these screens for me. Those look great

They look these look really good. Yeah, and then I needed an extra screen These so I try to like kind of take what he has and made these right? It's alright because I'm kind of using his elements, but I'm like, alright, can you fix this up for me? And then it is this much nicer, right? Yeah, it's just it's just like clearly better but you can't you can't articulate exactly why yeah, like I mean I know why it's better I just don't know. I don't know if I could have gotten there without him, right? Yeah in the first place. So yeah props to open sats Yeah in the first place. So yeah props to open sats

Cuz I maybe that's the issue maybe like people are like willing to sponsor devs, right? but maybe maybe there's I don't know maybe there's less designers interested in Bitcoin, maybe the There's grants available for designers, but like honestly like this the the way we've been working has been perfect Right full-time developer part-time designer just like two people I run my like because he's also good at like UX like and he's very like he's very new to Bitcoin So that also helps so I like explain how to him out of Bitcoin works and like all right Like what do you think about this UX and we bounce ideas off each other and then he goes and designs it It's been it's great. Like I would highly recommend like Yeah, people do something like that.

Like you really need a designer as well. How do you apply for an open stats grant? Um, you just write a proposal basically. Like, uh, it's on there. It's on their, um, website. You're basically say what you're going to do, why they should fund you, how you plan to do it, and then there is some like proof of work, like why they should give you the money.

So like, you know, like what have you done in the past to convince us that you can actually pull this off kind of you know it's that easy you know what's the meme now you can just do stuff yeah and you know surprisingly sometimes it works out it seems to have worked out here when are you gonna be ready to release? I'm gonna say like a couple months. So yeah, almost done top signers and I'm gonna finish Coin control and once that's done so people are actively testing it out Having gotten like too many bug reports and nobody's like I've lost all my money

So obviously gonna test it out a bit more and test out the new features, but when I feel confident in that everything's working well, I'll release the iOS app and then I'll continue to work on Android and then a few months from then, then probably do a beta launch for Android as well and then full launch for that. Very strong. Tell people where they can find out more about you, more about the project and we'll wrap it up. Yeah me I'm Praveen Pereira on Twitter X whatever. It's his accounts in the show notes already on

YouTube. I also have a NOS er, I use it sometimes It's pretty good it's just like sometimes like it's weird actually sometimes I got better engagement on NOS er sometimes better engagement on Twitter So I do I have been using both more more often Cove wallet Yeah, it's called my wallet On exits just Cove wallet or covebitcoinwallet.com? I don't even remember what it was. Yeah, it's covebitcoinwallet.com. On X it says just covewallet. Yeah, get into the test flight, test it out. It is beta, so don't put all your money on it.

But- Tread lightly, yeah, tread lightly. But if you are using it with a hardware wallet, the damage radius is obviously pretty limited because we're not actually handling the money and Coldcard does a good job of kind of verifying like are you sending it to the right place and all that and also this is built on a software thing called BDK. I don't know if you've heard of BDK. Bitcoin development kit yeah yeah BDK is great so without BDK I don't like I wouldn't have been able to

do this in this time because they handle a lot of the cryptography, the money handling code, so they let me actually spend time on making the UI nice and UX, so thank you to BDK guys, Steve and all those guys there. So yeah, and then that's good, so you don't have to trust me that I'm smart enough to handle all the cryptography, because I'm not, I'm just kind of making a nice UI for it.

It looks great. Thanks for listening. Watching everybody try out Cove. You've got questions, send Praveen a DM. He likes, uh, pictures of feed as well until next time. Uh, take care of yourself. Good.