The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - Michael Degroot - Bitcoin as a Medium of Exchange | The CBP (Bitcoin Podcast)

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

FRIENDS AND ENEMIESThis week we welcome Michael Degroot to the show to Bitcoin as a currency and used in a peer-to-peer system.A lot of folks are using bitcoin as a store of value, but one of the characteristics that makes bitcoin so appealing is the medium of exchange. Bitcoin does meet the definition of money, so it makes sense that people will start transacting with bitcoin sometime in the future.If you want to follow Michael on X, he can be found at: https://x.com/_mikedegroot From a couple of Canucks who like to talk about how Bitcoin will impact Canada. As always, none of the info is financial advice. Website: ⁠www.CanadianBitcoiners.com⁠Discord:   / discord   A part of the CBP Media Network: ⁠www.twitter.com/CBPMediaNetworkThis show is sponsored by: easyDNS - ⁠⁠www.easydns.com⁠⁠ EasyDNS is the best spot for Anycast DNS, domain name registrations, web and email services. They are fast, reliable and privacy focused. You can even pay for your services with Bitcoin! Apply coupon code 'CBPMEDIA' for 50% off initial purchase Bull Bitcoin - ⁠⁠https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/cbp⁠⁠ The CBP recommends Bull Bitcoin for all your BTC needs. There's never been a quicker, simpler, way to acquire Bitcoin. Use the link above for $20 bones, and take advantage of all Bull Bitcoin has to offer.

Friends and enemies, welcome to yet another edition of the Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. I'm Len, the legend, of course, and I'm going to be doing this one solo without Joey. We haven't done an interview together for quite some time. I think we'll probably do one in the not too distant future, but today is not that. I'll be talking to Michael DeGroot in just a few moments from now. We'll be talking about his affiliation with Luxor. I want to talk more about Bitcoin used as a currency, a peer-to-peer exchange, because if you look at what Bitcoin is, it's not just a store

of value. One of the fundamentals, one of the characteristics of Bitcoin is you can exchange it for a good or a service. Some people exchange it for fiat currency. That's your choice, but a lot of different options you could do with Bitcoin. And I want to talk a little bit more about that. But before we talk to Mike and talk about the topics at hand, a couple of sponsors, I've got to mention number one, we have the first sponsor, easy DNS, which has been with us for the longest period of time. Mark and his team have been absolutely wonderful. They've helped us.

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and if you do sign up, use our promo code CBP Media, 50% will be taken off your initial purchase so you might as well make a massive buy at the get go. Second sponsor is Bull Bitcoin and it's a good time to buy, good time to sell, I don't know, whatever is your will make a massive buy at the get go. Second sponsor is Bull Bitcoin. And it's a good time to buy, good time to sell. I don't know, whatever is your flavor. They'll be able to help you out both on chain and on lightning, check it out. But it's not just simply buying.

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It's been a few months who knows that you might be some delinquents out there You can use their bill service to pay those bills with your Bitcoin The Queen went up quite a bit in the past year So So you could start using that as a way of paying your bills. You could also buy gift cards through bull Bitcoin and start indirectly spending your Bitcoin in the real world. This is one of the ways you could do that in Canada. Other than that, you got to find somebody that accepts Bitcoin. Hard to find. So either way, check them out. Use our referral for a link below if you do that $21 will be added to your account once you provide the necessary information and fund your account So with that being said we're now done. I'm gonna bring on Michael the group Michael vexel. I like that title I do have over there

How are you Mike? Thanks, Len. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on today. No, it's a pleasure. And you know what? It's been a while since we wanted to get you on. Joey was the one that gave me a heads up. We would like to have brought you on the show. And we finally had an opening. I think we talked maybe about a month ago, a little bit less

than a month ago. We finally linked up. So this has been a long time coming, I think. So it's awesome to have you on. And well, for people who want to know who you are, Mike DeGroote, who are you? And why is it that we want to talk to you? Why are you a Bitcoiner? I want to hear your journey a little bit more about you. Yeah, that sounds great. So right now, I'm really fortunate. I'm working for Luxor full time. So right now, I'm really fortunate. I'm working for Luxor full-time.

And then I've been a community manager at Vexel since September of last year, and then also an ambassador for the Orange Pill app. So I have a lot of toes in the ecosystem. And I'm really fortunate to be part of the Vancouver Bitcoin community where there's a lot of peer-to-peer going on. There's over 100 merchants in the Greater Vancouver area that are accepting Bitcoin. Vancouver has it, so you can almost any type of purchase you want from house rentals to sushi, to sushi, a boating company, except Bitcoin.

So it's really thriving. The circular economy is really thriving there. And Deer to Pier is really thriving there as well on a non-business level too. Vancouver seems to be a very interesting city with respect to Bitcoin. If I recall correctly, the first Bitcoin ATM in North America was established in Vancouver. Am I right? Yes, that sounds right. I think it might have been at a Waves coffee shop.

Furthermore, in North Vancouver, aren't they using, and I could be wrong about this, but Bitcoin mining the waste heat to heat some businesses and maybe residential areas, or am I correct about that? No, that's right. So my friends Colin and Jen from Mint Green. Yes, exactly. Their company Mint Green has I guess a contract with the city of North Vancouver to do, I believe it's considered like district heating where they're heating up. I think it's mostly water for different businesses in North Vancouver. And then I believe they also just signed to heat up the swimming pool in Kitsilano with Bitcoin miners. And it's really cool to see their company doing so well and just that type of Bitcoin mining like starting to thrive,

especially in an area that's very conscious about the environment, Vancouver, and like we're lucky that our mayor is quite progressive. But it's I I do not envy what they the hoops they I imagine they have to go through to get those approvals through any type of government. So we had Mayor Ken Sim on the show about a month and a half ago. Joey had the pleasure of chatting with him. And he, if I recall correctly, he was even accepting Bitcoin as part of his campaign donations. He's like very much into Bitcoin, which is amazing to see. And like you said, over in that neck of the woods where you live, it seems to be more environmentally friendly and environmentally conscious conscious.

And Bitcoin doesn't seem to jive with that type of narrative for whatever reason. So it's good to see that Bitcoiners are picking up the pieces over there and trying to build and establish a community. For the likes, we don't have anywhere else in Canada. I can't say that in Toronto we have a thriving Bitcoin community the same way we have in Vancouver. So kudos to you guys over there. I mean, you guys are doing really good.

And I just wanted to also mention one thing, Mintgreen. I also think that they use the waste heat for something to do with whiskey right when they are sub producing whiskey and it's just interesting to see what they're doing with it. There's a lot of different options so and and your journey into Bitcoin because you didn't touch upon it and I love to hear everybody's like how they get exposure to Bitcoin how they learn about it. I want to hear your Bitcoin story. Yeah, that sounds great. So prior to what I'm doing now, I worked at a bank, I worked in wealth management, and I also co-founded a fitness studio that I was fortunate to sell before COVID happened, just lucky timing.

But at the beginning of COVID, I had been looking at Bitcoin more seriously, probably for about four or five months. I saw that the price was going down at the beginning of COVID. These people on the internet were telling me that a halving was about to happen and that the price always goes up after a halving. And I thought it was a good opportunity to start buying some and educating myself more. Unfortunately, I didn't know about say bull Bitcoin. I only knew about Coinbase. And the most I could do at that time was they limited me to $200 a day, which I believe was like also full KYC. And then eventually I got a higher limit but when

I was trying to buy close to the bottom I could only buy 200 a day and then by the time I had a higher limit I think the price had like more than doubled so but I learned a lot there and the first time I had heard about Bitcoin it was in 2011 when Black Friday happened in the online poker world. It wasn't something that I really partook in. I had like dabbled it in a tiny bit. But I saw that online poker players, after that happened, they started to be like, oh, we can play with Bitcoin this decentralized form of money that the government can't seize from us and I wish I would have

paid more attention to it because it took me like almost nine years after that actually by any myself you know I was very similar to you in terms of my first purchase purchases were all done through coinbase and for I remember that those days when you first made your purchases with Coinbase, you only had a limit until you built some credibility with them. And then it slowly went up to a point where you could actually buy a decent amount. So I totally remember those days. And I wasn't aware of any other exchange was just Coinbase, Coinbase. That was it, right? In terms of selling Bitcoin,

there was no option, not that I really ever wanted to sell, but the only thing we could do was buy with it. That was it. And we just bought. It's very interesting. I'm not that long of a tooth. I've only been around since 2017 and people have been much much longer. So it's interesting to hear what people were doing when they first got into Bitcoin.

So in terms of your family and friends, have you been able to successfully orange fill any of them or are they still pre-coiners or maybe even worse, no coiners? So out of my say closest 25 friends, about half are Bitcoiners now. So it's been somewhat successful. And and then for regarding family, close family, all of them, except for one person, are Bitcoiners. And that was one thing that took a little bit to get through to them. But the education part is so important. And then being able to share resources, such as podcasts like this one, people like Jeff Booth, them learning about how like,

you can actually use it to buy stuff at places. It's really... I don't think buying at places is the most important thing, but for whatever reason, that seems to be something that people like to see to get them on board. And that's one thing me and some other Bitcoiners in the city I live in, because I live just outside Vancouver, we are trying to get some more small businesses to accept Bitcoin, because you don't know like what the second order effects of it are. And also like one of the reasons I think it has been successful in Vancouver is when a couple places on a block start accepting Bitcoin, then the

other merchants in that same area are like, oh, how come you're getting like extra foot traffic? Like I noticed you're accepting Bitcoin. Like how is that working? And it's such a win-win for any merchant to accept it that it just the the second order third order effects end up adding up a lot. Jeff Booth, he's local to you because I believe he's a Vancouver guy or so he's really great to talk to and listen to. Um, he resonates with a lot of folks, including myself. So he's a great person to talk to and to try to introduce and try to, to onboard

a Bitcoin so you have a great resource that's local? So are you from like, do you know him well? Decently, yeah. I wish I knew him better, but I know him pretty good. He has talked at a few of our meetups and he's definitely been around and we were really lucky to have him and so many others in this space. The very first meetup I went to Samson Mao was talking at it.

And I knew that it was going to be awesome because he was talking and then further down the line, I'm like, oh, I can't believe that was like the very first speaker that I ever saw in person. I think a meet up like that probably had 100 to 150 people. We are getting pretty good numbers. When Mayor Ken Sim talked, I think it was six weeks ago or so in Vancouver, at Funk Coffee House, the place was completely full. So there was about 150 people there. So lots of people are coming out, lots of people are learning,

and it's a really good atmosphere to be in. And then one thing that's really cool that Funk Coffee House does that I like to see is that if you pay in Bitcoin, you get a 5% discount, which is just so smart because obviously they're not paying like a MasterCard or Visa fee and It just helps encourage that circular economy as well so how are people tracking their buys because here in Canada that we have the obligation to report it to CRA every time we Exchange Bitcoin for something else even if you trade it for to CRA every time we exchange Bitcoin for something else, even if you traded for USDT, for instance. But anytime you trade Bitcoin for something not named Bitcoin, including good or service, it's got to be reported in tax or at least taxable events. So how are

people over there doing it? Is it an easy way? Because I'll be perfectly honest, that's one of the things that's preventing me from really spending my Bitcoin is the headache and the administration headache of that. So I'd like to hear how people are doing it over there if they're doing it. Yeah. So one of the ways I do it is spend and replace. So buying and selling the same day. And then that is easy. On coffee houses wall, there is a Bitcoin well ATM there. And lightning fees are so small, so that's really helpful. A way someone else told me they were doing it, which I don't know if this is tax compliant or not, is that they'll maybe move $100 into a hot wallet and then like the same day they buy it so they're

saying that's their like Transaction even though like it might go up or down a little bit Yeah, but I I understand the viewpoint of like it's in a hot wallet. It's like technically You might not be able to get it back like they're counting that as like the taxable part of it. And like for me personally, it's small amounts. So it's not too hard. And I haven't done any big purchases,

probably my two bigger purchases with Bitcoin or like my Madex stuff. Did you buy that on train or lightning? I think I bought them on lightning, which. Holy, that's a large purchase on lightning. Yeah, and it worked excellent. And that would have been out learning Bitcoin in Victoria. And yeah, so I'm pretty sure, pretty sure it was on lightning.

And I remember being surprised that it was that easy to do, not a significant dollar amount, but not a small dollar amount. The one's a print and then the other one is on like a computer board. Not just when you get into like 20, 30 bucks and beyond with Lightning, depending on how the channels are balanced and how much liquidity you have, it could be a real problem.

So it's good to hear that people are using it for even larger dollar purchases. So there's a case use for it, which is, again, I use Lightning, not that much, but it's just more for a plate than anything. I'm just toying around with it. I don't use it for buying. The only time I ever ended up to buy something was a a long time ago was through the fold app if you ever

We had of that and buy a gift card and you know, that's that was it other than that I've never but anyways that with respect to like the I mean that we'll get into the other things like Lexor and so For it, but I just want to exhaust this topic because I'm very curious is coin us Because they're very active over there, they have boots on the ground in terms of trying to have merchants accept Bitcoin. Have you interacted with them? Have you dealt with them in the past? Yeah, Adam and Cole are phenomenal. So, and that's one of the main reasons Vancouver has such a strong circular economy is Cole is boots on the ground, circular economy is coal is boots on the ground.

Adam is as well, but it seems like coal is just all the time going to new businesses and getting them to sign up. And I believe one of the things he says is I guarantee you, you will have more customers if you start accepting Bitcoin and the churn rate seems extremely low. It seems like once people started accepting Bitcoin, as long as there's not an ownership change, they continue to accept Bitcoin. It's such a value add. And yeah, he's been able to do such a good job with it. And one day, Cole and I actually, we wanted to see how many different businesses we could

go to in one day and make a Bitcoin purchase app. So between me and him, we went to 20 businesses together. And then we did, one of us did one, one of us did two separately just when we were driving in different directions. So we hit a total of 23 businesses in one day. And I mean, as far as we know, that's the most businesses anyone's been to in a day that accept Bitcoin. You're doing good. Between your 25 friends and your 23 businesses

and you did in that one day. And I don't even have 25 friends. So like, you're doing pretty damn good by the way. So yeah, spreading the word. Now, I mean, I think it's a good time to just transition to Luxor, because you're working over there on a sales rule. Am I correct on that?

Yeah, yeah, so I'm mostly on their ASIC trading desk, which is the hardware, and I've only been there for a few weeks now, and it's been incredible. I've never seen a team work so hard and just the helpfulness and I feel very fortunate to be surrounded by Bitcoiners. As you know and probably lots of your audience knows, it's very easy when I've interacted with Bitcoiners in real life or online. You can just tell

that you have something in common, you're working towards a greater goal and you really want anyone else in the space to succeed. So that's exactly how I feel working there. The atmosphere could not be better. The knowledge I'm learning from everyone has been phenomenal. People go out of their way to make sure I'm feeling comfortable and to help me, which that's very impactful when you're starting off as a new employee. Then we have other departments as well. They do firmware, they have a mining pool, they have a derivative product, and then they also do research.

The whole ecosystem and depending on what clients want, we do the full white glove service for whatever they're looking for in all those spaces. So which one are you most familiar with? I'm assuming it's going to be the ASIC side of things with the sales of that? Yeah, so that's the area I'm specializing in. And then, yeah, there's like opportunities to be in like the ecosystem for any of our clients, like for all of those different areas. In terms of, is there any opportunities for people to work?

Are there any openings that you know, in case there's somebody out there looking for a job where everything is, is filled up and there there's nothing they're not trying to hire anybody new at this time. Great question they did just hire a few people so and I'm not I think on LinkedIn there might be like one or two roles but I would definitely recommend one feel free to reach out to me and then also keep an eye on their LinkedIn that is what I did is I had been keeping an eye on their LinkedIn for a long time probably over two two years. And I noticed that, yeah, I mean, he committed and I saw an open role and I was very fortunate to be able to get hired there. But also over that time period, too,

this is just something I tell anyone is companies that you are interested in. I kept noticing that they were adding like more products and features and it's because they were listening to their clients. They're building things that Bitcoiners want and just seeing that is that's something that you want to look for, like in any company, in my opinion. Then this is a remote role for you. They don't have a bricks and mortar set up over there in the BC area, right? Is that correct? That's correct.

Yeah. So yeah, remote role for me. Uh, there will definitely be some travel, uh, and going to be going to different conferences and then any Bitcoin conference. Yeah, I think so. Um, I'm hoping to go to the any Bitcoin conference yeah I think so I'm hoping to go to the Canadian Bitcoin conference the the rodeo what they in Calgary and that's for July yes yeah beginning of July or end of June maybe actually

something like that yeah it's near Canada Day yeah mm-hmm yeah that's really happening and I haven't I haven't been to the Canadian Bitcoin conference for Well since the inception that when he went to Toronto that first year and since then I haven't gone Think was this is gonna be a third year. I believe last year was in Montreal I couldn't go family commitment and this year I can't go because well, I got travel plans nearby. So Joey I think will be attending. So at least we'll have representation for the Canadian Bitcoiners podcast Oh, there's a yeah, I feel if he's attending, so at least we'll have representation for the Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. Oh, that's good. Yeah, I feel like if he's there, say hello to him and just don't be a stranger.

And the one in the Bitcoin rodeo, fuck, we always wanted to go, but just again, family commitments. It's quite a distance for us to go to Calgary. For you, it's easier. For me, it's easy. Yeah, it's only an hour plate yeah so it's it's definitely hit it up because BTC sessions is very prominent that without one Dave Bradley there's a whole bunch of folks there it's really happening

that so yeah so it with Luxury I mean if you're familiar with one of these two bid axes this is I'm yeah it was plug this is the Canadian big corners podcasted branded bid ax but yeah have you familiar with one of these BitAxes? This is on the famous plug. This is the Canadian BitCointers podcast, branded BitAx. But yeah, have you familiar with these guys, these BitAxes? Awesome. Have you sold a mind to block with it yet? No, I wouldn't be here if I did. Actually, I probably would still be here if I did. No, but I'm doing what I can to secure the network.

You know, even though it's like one tera hash, still I'm doing my part. So these things are really cool. Like what are your thoughts on the Binax? Yeah, I really good learning tool. Um, it's really good. Uh, I only have good things to say about it. I've only heard good things about it. And like you said, yeah, you're helping with the network.

Um, are you, are you out of mining pool? Are you trying to. No, that's a solo miner. I'll go over. Yeah.'s a solo miner? I'm Yeah, I'm really the place an average every 10 minutes to see what happens and there was a bit axe that did Build a block this past week again I'm not sure if you saw the news on that every so often every few months you hear another story like that Which is great and give people like me hope that maybe I'll solve one too. But the reality is nah Yeah, but I'm just doing this for for fun

Very little energy very little heat it puts off and the noise is minimal Like I'm keeping this right beside me during a podcast and the mic isn't picking it up Which is amazing a lot of people actually he have them in their bedrooms and stuff because it's just so quiet and isn't in practice We think at all. So like, you know, even an s9, you know, they're ancient, but they're loud as crap. You know, S19. Yeah. And S21s listening to like jets. And have you been to a mining farm, by the way, because I would love to hear anybody's experience with them, because man, I could just, every time I see a video, they have to put the ear protection

on and everything. And so I want to know if you ever been to one of those mining farms out there. Yeah, and it's loud. Depending on how it's set up and everything, but yeah, when I've been to one, I used ear protection. I do recommend it. Some people have their offices close to them, and they may or may not be using ear protection.

It really depends on what machines are running, what they're running at and all of that. But yeah, there's definitely a bit of noise for good reason though. But yeah, it's really cool to see. And yeah, there's more and more. And what's actually really cool to see. There's more and more. What's actually really cool is I run two monthly meetups. One in Chilac, one in Langley.

I'm just randomly talking to one of the people that came to the Chilac one. He goes, oh yeah, one of my friends has been heating up a greenhouse with Bitcoin miners for six years or something. I had absolutely no idea about that. This obviously isn't a big mine or anything, but they have some machines in a greenhouse and they've been heating up their greenhouse for like give or take six years. I'm curious how many of those stories are out there that we don't know about because that is something we should know about

There is an easy way to use the waste heat and as you said something like a greenhouse in Canada It's hard to grow stuff in the cold mines and it gives an opportunity to maybe Grow some tomatoes or figs or whatever the heck you want to grow in a winter time So yeah, it's definitely it's an easy way to do it And in terms of your meetups, do you run them periodically? Like is it every few weeks or something because I want to give a plug if you are running them Yeah Thank you very much. Yeah, so the We have a Twitter page called Fraser Valley dickliners and then so every second Wednesday

We run one in Langley at a restaurant called Poseidon. Uh, and they, it's a Greek restaurant and they accept Bitcoin. And then every third Wednesday in Chilliwack, uh, we are recently doing it out of, uh, kind of more like a community center area and we have like a projector and stuff, so we're able to make it a little more educational. Uh, so that's where I'm'm gonna be going tonight after this. I was gonna ask you, this is the third Wednesday of the month, so what time is it gonna take place?

So you wanna make sure that we're not gonna, because you're- Oh yeah, no, we're fine for time. Both of them are at 6.30. Okay, yeah, okay, that's good. I don't wanna interrupt that. In terms of Lux, right, anything new in the horizon that's gonna be exciting us?

Because they have their foot in quite a few different pools So I'm curious if they have anything that's going to be expanding with them that you know that you could also disclose with us They are always listening to their and There will definitely be some new stuff down the road and I yeah, no, I'm actually not sure what I'm allowed to say Yeah, so it's spider and then like mining disrupt is coming up definitely be some new stuff down the road. And I, yeah, no, I'm actually not sure what I'm allowed to say. And then, uh, like mining disrupt is coming up, I think next week. Um, so, uh, I mean, I don't think they're going to be making any announcements or anything then, but I imagine a lot of mining stuff is. More and more stuff is going to be coming out in the next little while,

just in general in the area. Orange pill app. Yeah. Let's talk about that. What's your involvement with that? So I was one of the very first members that joined orange pill app when Mateo launched it at Pacific Bitcoin in 2022. And, uh, so my wife and I were on our honeymoon.

We had just got married and I had this great idea to start our honeymoon off at a Bitcoin conference. What an interesting honeymoon. She's a keeper by the way. I completely agree. And you went to the club party with me before the binding or sorry, before the Bitcoin conference started. She had a really good time. She didn't go to the actual conference. She did her own thing in like the LA area, San Diego area, or Santa Monica for two days. And then our honeymoon really started. But yeah, so she was supportive of that. And then met Mateo there. I was one of the first people that signed up

for Orange Pill app. At the beginning, there was relatively early on, they made it so you could connect a Lightning Wallet to it. So I started messaging people on their app being like, hey, if you don't know how to do a lightning, how to add a lightning wallet to the app, like I can help you with that. I also made a guide for it.

And then Joe Nakamoto or Joe Hall, he wrote an article about it at Coin Telegraph because that's where he was back then. And then I think I connected with about a thousand people, helped lots of people set up lightning wallets. I think I zapped like six, 700 people, just small amounts of lightning, which hopefully I can tell my grandkids in the future,

like how much I regret doing that, you know. And, but yeah, and then, so I've always just kind of had a relationship with them. It's been really helpful for organizing meetups, meeting new Bitcoiners. They keep adding more and more stuff to it because they're adding events. They've added merchants. They now have the Lightning wallet built into it. And one of the best ways for me to say it works is someone who I met on the app, his name's Shane. We're good friends now. And I even helped him move. So obviously we must be pretty good friends if I helped you that, right? Is he local to you?

He's local to me, yeah. Okay. So you didn't pick up on going going a plane to fly out somewhere and how about So the orange pillow for people aren't aware that's for helping onboard merchants and also trying to Expand people's horizon to promoting Bitcoin events stuff like that. Is that correct with the orange and Yeah available on both Android and Apple, right? Yeah, yeah. Connecting Bitcoiners, there is a paywall on it so you don't get any spam or scammers or anything. So yeah, so that's really helpful.

And yeah, it's really popular. It's really good for traveling as well, especially if you're going to a new city. I feel like I could pretty much travel anywhere in the world and be able to meet up with Bitcoiners. Uh, some people I've met on there. I've been like, Hey, if you're ever here, you can like stay at my house and stuff. Like very friendly.

And because of the paywall, uh, it feels a lot safer. You do a lot of traveling. You mean you've been to California obviously, or, and you have you done a lot? Because I'm curious to see like every time you go somewhere, there are a lot safer. You do a lot of traveling. I mean, you've been to California, obviously, or, and do you have you done a lot? Because I'm curious to see like every time you go somewhere, there are a lot of merchants available that do accept a client. I don't do a ton of traveling. I do tend to stay in BC a lot just because we're so lucky with a lot of the places. But yeah, when I have gone to different areas, not usually very many merchants.

I have noticed there is people on Orange Pill app, like when I've been in different places in California and then even in Mexico. But yeah, generally speaking, not that many merchants. They don't have a ton of merchants on the app, but I think that is an area of growth. And then that's one of the things too, like with Vexel is that with Vexel as well, it's such a good off ramp for anyone, but like merchants too. Um, and yeah, it's, it's the peer to peer getting Bitcoiners to me in real life. Like those are such good things. So Vexel for people that are listening in, it's a V E X L that's how you spell it. So, and you're the community manager for Canada for that.

So tell us how it is that you came across dealing with them and I want to hear more about Bexel. Yeah so was really cool I think they posted on Bitcoin or jobs so when I first heard about them and then I realized they were part of Satoshi Labs which like is crazy. Satoshi Labs has been around forever. They did Trezor in, hope I get this right, 2013. Could be 2014, but I'm pretty sure it was 2013. They're such a leader in different areas in the space. It was interesting because they're based out of Czech Republic and they were looking for community managers in other countries. When I saw that, I was interested in it right away. The main goal of the app is to connect you with another Bitcoiner and then get you connecting in real life to be able

to do peer-to-peer transactions just like Satoshi envisioned. And for me personally, I've been able to do that multiple times now. And the way they keep it safe is so when you download the Vexel app, you can add your contacts to the app. And the only way you can connect with someone is if they're already a contact on your phone or if they are a contact of a contact. So like a second degree contact,

like Five Shades of Kevin Bacon, it's like Three Shades of Kevin Bacon, it's like Dry Shades of Bitcoiners I guess. And so what's really good is, so as soon as I downloaded it, I saw a couple ads on there and then one of the people, we had one mutual contact and it happened to be Grafton who works at Vexel in Czech Republic. And so I quickly messaged Grafton. I'm like, Hey, do you know this person? He goes, yep. I met this person at a conference. They met, I believe that Bitcoin Prague could have been a different one of the European ones, but I think it was Bitcoin broad. And then that person came back to Vancouver and was looking to use the app. And then me and him

were able to do a peer to peer transaction. And it works that easy. It's obviously still growing. So depending on the area and stuff, there's going to be more or less people. Depends on who you have in your phone as well. That's one of the things with going to so many different BitCourt events. Sometimes you don't always get someone's actual phone number, but that's also what makes it so secure because anyone's phone number who I do have in my phone is a trusted contact. It's not like I have random people's phone numbers in my phone. You haven't looked at my phone book here. It's full of who knows what's on it. So this then it's a KYC type product because you're giving up your contact information, at least something when you are not only signing up and you're trying to engage into an exchange with somebody, a peer-to-peer

exchange because you have to be trusted in one way, shape, or form. So there is some KYC to this process, correct? Kind of. So what you're saying, yes, that is correct. And like it does go through the app store. So like on Apple, it's through, you have that like test flight and then you can download it

because it's technically in beta on Apple on Android It works through the Google store or through the other one as well. I Mean you are downloading an app. So there's that KYC aspect of it and then phone numbers are uploaded, but it's only phone numbers and then The app connects so when you connect with someone else the app doesn't actually know what you do not on the app so it doesn't know if you're making a transaction so the actual transaction there's no KYC and

it's peer-to-peer which is why it works so good as an on-ramp or an off-ramp. That's one of the things too. I have personally been seeing this a bit more lately. I'm not sure if you have or not, but some people I know that who have only been into Bitcoin for like two years, maybe a little bit longer. 100% of the Bitcoin they have is not in KYC. They've never even gone to an exchange 100% of the Bitcoin they have is non KYC. They've never even gone to an exchange because there's different options and then there's also Just more education about that out there now And like what mean you were talking about before with like when I first bought I didn't even know of anything besides quite big Coinbase was the only thing I knew for a very long time and now I am am starting to learn because there's BIS, there's HODL, HODLers, VEXEL, there's a lot of different options for peer to peer.

So when it comes to VEXEL, how does it work? Do you like say you want to buy some Bitcoin and then you say, I have, I guess, cash or is it e-transfer or is it your choice? Like, how does it work? Like you put a limit, I want to say buy $500 within this geographical area. Like what's the process? Yep. Uh, you can make an ad saying you're buying or selling. Uh, that's like the most basic thing. Uh, there. So you make an ad and then you

say, we'll just, for instance, I want to buy a thousand dollars worth of Bitcoin and then you can say if you want to pay a premium, you want to pay a discount. Everything I've done has always just been the spot rate, so market rate. And that's one thing I also like too, like no spread, which is awesome. And then you say how you want to pay. Um, just from what I've done personally, it's always been in cash. Uh, and like, we're not talking like in same dollar values or anything. Right. And, um, so yeah, so you put those in and then you can also, there's like a little bit more information you can put in as well.

And then, so after you've done that and someone either Sees your ad or you see someone else's ad you can connect and then you can message each other on there which is encrypted and Then you can choose to share your phone number with the other person or not It's up to you So I have shared my phone number with someone through the app and I also have not shared my phone number with someone through the app. That is a choice that is available on the app. And then one of the things too, all the information is stored on four different servers.

So the servers also don't talk to each other. So there's more security and privacy there as well. Like that's purposely been designed by the Vexel team. And one of the things that I saw and that people were excited about was someone both I think they'd caught a squid and they were selling frozen squid. I was just going to ask you that it was a classified section to this Yeah, so there's also a classified section to it And it's a really good opportunity for merchants for anyone who's accepting Bitcoin You can essentially like advertise your service on there because there kind of is like a goods and services section as well as Just buying and selling

Like not that different from like Craigslist obviously like that type of idea for like goods and services So is that where you're getting the majority or maybe all of your Bitcoin are using VEXO because the reason I'm asking is the Exchange right now where a lot of people are going to Coinbase, bull Bitcoin, wherever, they're operating, they're fine, but there could be a point in time where governments are going to be adversarial towards these, maybe take a potentially want to try to shut them down. So the on ramps through that method might be difficult, if not impossible. And so the only method available would be a peer-to-peer type exchange.

So is everything that you're doing, all your buys and maybe sells, all done through Vexel right now? Yes, and I I'll definitely talk about that a little bit more too. So I'm actually gonna be getting paid a hundred percent by Luxor in Bitcoin and I'm gonna really put it to the test. So, I mean we might have to do an update in the future, but this is sick. Biggers like you must be getting played very well. So you're really going to see how well it was to do a Luxor.

No, but, um, but yeah, no, I'm going to, I'm going to start putting it to the test as well. And just really seeing, um, I have a lot of faith in, uh, just what I'll be able to do like through Vexel and through the Bitcoin community in BC, like especially Vancouver. And I mean, I'm still going to try and save as much of it as I can, of course, right, especially with prices right now. But obviously I have a tiny bit of KYC Bitcoin that I have just slowly been using for expenses. And then all of my new buys are going peer to peer, usually through Bexel. And then yeah, non-KYC, separate wallet for it.

And I think it seems like more and more people, that's what they're trying to do because I know I'm not the only one doing that. And like you mentioned with like the Coinbase and all that, there's obviously less risk with companies like that when you take it off the exchange. And I mean, that's just such another good reason with bull Bitcoin, right? But like, for instance, Coinbase, fully KYC'd, have all my info, they get audited. They obviously have to give that up to whoever's auditing them.

And I just like, I personally don't like people knowing or like being able to know just like small transactions I'm doing. And me and my one friend to James who helps run the Chillout Bitcoin Meetup, we've also just been using like cash more like on our dayto-day life, which isn't always the most convenient. I don't get my credit card rewards, but I think the privacy and the benefit to businesses not paying extra fees is a good thing. And that's one thing I personally just always did even before I was a Bitcoiner was like I'd always try and tip

in cash like whenever I was somewhere just because uh when I delivered pizza in high school the Tips I got in cash were always the best because you got them right away They weren't added to your paycheck like there's there's lots of benefits to Doing stuff like that Yeah, 100%. Good for you for working in those lines

because a lot of people don't carry cash these days. They rely 100% on digital payments for whatever reason. And good for you for going all in where you're gonna get paid in Bitcoin and using Vexel to process everything. And just wanna plug this, and it sounds like you may be already using it,

the Bull Bitcoin, their bill service where you can pay your bills with Bitcoin. You've been using that, I'm assuming? No, I haven't used it. And that was actually something just when I was listening to your podcast the other day and you had the ad read at the beginning and I'm like, you know what, I might need to use this now that I am going all in. And yeah, so I might be using that feature of bull Bitcoin. And I have used bull Bitcoin in the past. And it is too bad you can't buy it at the post office anymore.

I know. It's not quite a year. I think it was May last year. It went out of... Yeah, it sucks that it went out of... Yeah, it's just too bad. But they also... You can also get gift cards from there with your Bitcoin so that it's another way to help. But not just them, there's another,

and I forget the name of it, BTC Sessions talks about it at the beginning of his show. It's another, you could buy gift cards with your Bitcoin. So for somebody like you that's going balls deep into that, it's something you should look at as another option as well. Because that way you don't have to go to fiat and then use a fiat this way just kind of stay within you know kind of a Bitcoin way of doing things but either way you must be running a node I want to just ask you this question I'm

gonna be asking that everybody this question going forward do you run a node if so which one I want to hear your thoughts. Okay so I feel terrible I'm not running. No I know and I started setting up a lightning node which I know that's not a normal node but I started setting up a lightning node on my old MacBook and when I was setting it up my MacBook died and then after it died, we realized it was from 2010. So I mean, I did get a good like 13 years out of it, but my MacBook died. And then since then I have only been buying Bitcoin, but yeah, setting up a node is happening next month. I'll send you a message on the side or something.

Um, yeah, but yeah, no, no, I should be and I will be. And it's funny, we were talking about that at the last Bitcoin meetup, like a week ago in Langley, and me and another person, we are for sure setting them up in the next month. So I have just three feet less, two feet for me is a 2010 laptop that's running a full know So it's it's doing its thing. So yeah, I'm maybe this is on its last lights I don't know but it works and I'm happy because I can verify and broadcast my transactions in house and people give joy a Little bit of shit because he isn't for people listening and watching This has been rectified. I've taken care of this today

We'll be talking about this on Monday. He is now part of the node team So you don't give him any shit and that's been that's been fixed. Thanks to yours truly But for you Mike, are you gonna be then running another? I guess full load and then a lightning note on top of it. Is that your intention with that is the plan and My one friend Leo he's been doing Bitcoin meetups forever. He, I believe works at lightning labs. And so I'm part of like a Pacific Northwest, like lightning node group even. I started doing it with like, I think it was about 12 other people and I gave them 210,000 stats that I don't get back until my lightning node is up so I definitely

plan on getting that back up as well or getting it in the first place. Have you decided which rendition you're gonna run? Is it gonna be core lightning or LND or you have no idea as of yet. Uh, L and D I think. Okay. Yeah. So beautiful. Like that's the only one I ran. Um, so I have no experience running core, um, lightning. So I run Bitcoin core is my, um, node software, but yeah, so that's awesome.

You're going to be doing this. We got more people start doing their own nodes and being their own bank. For somebody like you, especially that's gonna be transacting almost entirely in Bitcoin, at least receiving all your income in Bitcoin, it makes total sense to run a node because then you're relying on nobody. Look at that. There's no bank you have to go to. It's essentially a truly decentralized world in where you live, at least financially, which is fucking awesome. I'm so happy to hear that you're doing this. This is amazing.

I just want to hear in terms of peer to peer, any interesting stories out there that when you want to go buy stuff, this is all like you're meeting the person when you're making the exchange. Right? It's with cash. You're not doing an e-transfer. Is that correct? Right. There is the option to be able to do the transfer and some of the people who I've done it with like I would feel comfortable doing any transfer with them because I know them now but for the first time meeting in person public space seems to me like the best option and that's what I have done personally. The best thing about it is the person who I originally met

and he had met Grafton in Europe, he's now come to more of the meetups. So he's also now more involved in the community too. And it started with just me and him meeting up and then me started with just me and him meeting up and then me educating him on all the stuff that is going on in Vancouver. It's really good to see, again, there's all these second order effects that happen because of stuff we're doing. One of the things with supporting the circular economy, having the privacy is that's the future that I'm looking to build. That's the future I want. And there's only one way to get there and we have to get there by doing. And I understand sometimes why people don't want to spend their Bitcoin, especially with

like tax implications and all that. The future I see though has a circular economy in it. So I'm going to continue to support that. And that's what I want to see in the future. So I like the things we're doing do make an impact. And sometimes it sucks asking like 100 different places if they want to accept Bitcoin or Talking to your friends about it and getting a lot of no's Time and education like go a long way

Especially like even in my journey like the first year Was successful like me and two friends All kind of bought Bitcoin at the same time and like no one else wanted to right away. And then, you know, over the next four years, like half of our friend group owns Bitcoin and way more family like, but it does, it takes time. You hear a lot of those. It's really nice being able to talk to other Bitcoiners because they're going through a lot of the same stuff. They're looking for like similar stuff to you are they're building a similar future to you are. Um, and if Vexel orange collab definitely helped with both of those things, um, listening to podcasts like this one, uh,

the person you had on recently, like talking about nuclear energy and all of that, like that was a Ryan McLeod. He's great. Yeah. Yeah. You know, another thing about Bitcoin that's, it's going to be able to maybe onboard people is like, I don't know about you, but I mean, we're all driving, I hope, right. And people look at us. How did you get it? Why? Maybe I mean, I'm still driving my old two Jetta that's rusting away. Maybe people are like, what what the fuck you driving that for but there's a reason why I drive it because I can still stack work or

With respect to you said something early in the show. You said the word zap Now when you mentioned that was it with respect to Noster? Do you do you use Noster or no? So I do use Noster I feel like all small lightning transactions are kind of zaps. Uh huh. Okay. Yeah. And like there's a lot of positives there. I wish it was being used more. I also feel that is a future I like because the decentralization of it being able to own your people you're connected to that's really powerful But yeah, the I should also be using it more I do use it sparingly but it is I

Mean that that is something I would like to see more of as well a great And you see and I'm guilty of that as well I should be using it more and I spoke to a gentleman I'm guilty of that as well. I should be using it more and I spoke to a gentleman He goes by the moniker UTXO and he created a relay that is kind of like an algorithm Algorithmic relay like that you have in Twitter where it provides you information not based on Chronological order but on the interest in which you're selecting so it's I find that to be really fascinating I still have to set it up So I'm like that so when you know if you miss a day or two in Nostra you feel like you're so far behind

but if you use that at least you're able to catch up easily just like if you Don't go on Twitter for a few hours or a few days. They get so Nostra is developing. It's it's very Rough around the edges like Bitcoin, but it's maturing and as it matures it gets better It's just the UX gets in vastly improved. So it's great to hear, but you know what we're approaching an hour. And I want to be respectful of your time because I know you have your meetup in a little while. So Mike, I just wanted to hand a baton to you.

Where could people find you in case they want to reach out to you, especially if they want to talk more about Luxor or Excel. Yeah. Uh, best way to find me is on Twitter, underscore Mike DeGroot and anyone who is interested in any of those things, especially if you're gonna like say download Vexel and you need another contact, message me. Obviously if you're looking for any mining equipment, cool derivative product or anything like that, message me as well. And then I think I have a referral code for OrangePel

App there too. So yeah, all of those things. One thing quick too before I go, do you mind explaining the privacy factor of running your own node when you can like go through your transactions through it? Because I think that'd be good for some of the listeners. Well, so one thing you could do with your node, you could verify your transaction. So if you are receiving Bitcoin, you could punch in the transaction ID, you could punch in the address on your own node and you could verify that it has been received there. Rather than providing that information to a third party node that you don't know, and that information could potentially be stored and associated with your IP.

So there could be a potential way for people to associate an IP with a particular search on Bitcoin. You wouldn't be searching just random stuff, mostly you'd be searching for your own. So it's that's one thing that you just don't want to do. You want to do these searches on your own node and prevent that information from being leaked outside. The second thing is when you broadcast a transaction, the way Bitcoin is done is moved is you have to digitally sign a transaction. I'm going to be pretty brief on this one, very high level. And when it's digitally signed, it's then broadcast to the Bitcoin network. And the mechanism which is done is through a node. And if you use your node to broadcast your transaction, the transaction where you're moving Bitcoin to somewhere else, well, you're not asking somebody else to do it. You're doing it in-house. And if your Bitcoin node is running behind something

like a VPN and or Tor, which gives you some additional privacy it's then virtually impossible to tie that transaction to you it's just a transaction in a network so it just it makes it easier and more much more private to not only verify transactions as I mentioned but the broadcast transaction so it just makes total sense to run your own node if you're not it, you're relying on somebody else. You're trusting somebody else to provide this information. And in Bitcoin, we verify it. We don't trust. And when you have your own node, that's the only way to verify it.

Yeah. Yeah, thanks. I knew your explanation of it would be better than mine. If you want to add to it, I'm fine with it. I mean, you may be hosting it. I'm good with that. But no, that sounded perfect. Awesome perfect awesome Mike I appreciate you coming on I did add in the show notes your address your Twitter or X address so people want to go to they were countess there and you did mention there was gonna be there's a referral code what does that get you the the when they if they use that so I believe sure they get a thousand sats

when they sign up I mean and if anyone uses my code and messages me on there also send them some stats to and make sure you know make sure that lightning wallet that's attached to it is working I think other yeah free sites and then for Bexel to like is if you do more contacts, they can add me as a contact. Oh, actually, so an ask for any Canadian Bitcoiners is we are trying to set up someone in any of the major cities or any cities that do have a Bitcoin meetup, essentially as like a Bexel volunteer ambassador. You can definitely add it to your resume. I can be a reference for anything like that. Just to be able to grow the peer-to-peer

community across Canada, because of the two like stages of connections, it would be really good for me to be linked with people across Canada. So anyone that has mine or you're one of the people across Canada who has mine, we'll all be able to do peer to peer transactions together. You'll be like the godfather with all that. Hi, Kenny. Mike, it's been a pleasure for you to come on the show. I appreciate you taking the time. We've been at this for an hour, which is just what I wanted to do.

And, uh, yeah, I want to make sure that you're not going to miss your, your, um, your meetup in a little bit. So with that, Mike, thanks for coming on and let me know if you want to come back on again, so that'd be great. I'd love to. Yeah. Thanks for having me on one. Take care.

Take care.