The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - MSTR Shareholders Dealt a HUGE Blow

Episode Date: October 20, 2026

MSCI adopted its non-operating company rule on October 15, and the companion spreadsheet of potentially impacted securities lists Strategy with a potential action of "Deleted" — roughly $40.3B of the $44.4B of float-adjusted market cap on that entire list. The affected names publish November 11 and the change takes effect at the close on November 30, leaving 19 days between the list and any forced selling. MSTR dropped 9.56% in a single session after the decision. Tonight, Joey and Len walk through the 4-of-5 ratio test, whether Strategy actually trips it, and what index removal does and does not do to the Bitcoin sitting behind the stock. MSCI's announcement names no company, and Strategy says MSCI-linked funds hold only 3.1% of its basic shares.Also on the show: Metaplanet swapping Bitcoin-backed loans for ¥52B of convertibles while restarting a buyback with the stock near 90% off its peak, Strategy buying 250 BTC and spending another $192M on its own preferred, K33's estimate that the STRC machine has left Strategy about 4,947 BTC behind where it would otherwise be, and Bitcoin trading near $80,000 on hot inflation prints. Plus the week's Canadian headlines: a record $17.5B of federal debt dumped by non-residents in August, 82 charges in the Toronto abduction case involving Armed Forces reservists, Macklem signalling a higher inflation forecast on October 28, and Alberta's vote today on starting the process toward a separation referendum.If the index funds sell the stock and not the coins, does any of this change the Bitcoin thesis for you?Canadian Bitcoiners PodcastWebsite: https://canadianbitcoiners.comSubscribe and turn on notifications — new episodes live Monday nights.READ MOREMSCI's announcement: https://app2.msci.com/webapp/index_ann/DocGet?pub_key=aq0wbkjxPgo=&lang=en&format=htmlThe finalized rules: https://www.theblock.co/news/business/2026-10-15-msci-rules-could-exclude-strategy-mstr-from-indexes-418729Who could be ejected: https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2026/10/16/msci-approves-rules-that-could-eject-strategy-metaplanet-from-equity-indexesStrategy's exposure: https://decrypt.co/381168/bitcoin-treasury-giant-strategy-faces-index-removal-under-finalized-msci-rulesSaylor's response: https://protos.com/strategy-dips-on-bad-msci-world-index-news/————————————————————————————————SPONSORS🔒 easyDNS — Canadian-owned domains, DNS, email and hosting from an ICANN-accredited company that has accepted Bitcoin since 2013. Use promo code CBPMEDIA for 50% off your first purchase.https://easydns.com⚡ Bull Bitcoin — Canada's non-custodial, Bitcoin-only exchange. CBP listeners get 25% off fees for life.https://app.bullbitcoin.com/registration/cbp🔥 256 Heat — Purpose-built Bitcoin miners that heat your space while producing hashrate. Tell them CBP sent you for a discount.https://256heat.com🎓 Bitcoin Mentor — One-on-one help with wallets, keys, self-custody, inheritance planning and nodes. Every package includes a 30-day money-back guarantee.https://btcmentor.io/aff/joey————————————————————————————————FOLLOW THE SHOW🎙️ CBP: https://x.com/CanadianBTCPod👤 Joey: https://x.com/joeytweeets👤 Len: https://x.com/thebtcpricebot📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/canadianbtcpod/💬 Discord: https://discord.gg/YgPJVbGCZXLISTENSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6WzoIyTowK47rcAmvrS7gtApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-canadian-bitcoiners-podcast-bitcoin-news-with/id1561002990RSS: https://anchor.fm/s/538d43f4/podcast/rss⚠️ Everything in this episode reflects personal opinions only and should not be considered financial advice.#Bitcoin #BitcoinNews #CanadianBitcoiners

Friends and enemies. Big day for Sailor and MSTR shareholders. Probably going to be removed from the MSCI index. We'll talk about that. Why are they getting removed and whether he actually has a legitimate beef? Alberta separation. Some stuff going on in France. I'm not sure if you've heard.

But we'll talk about that today and much more. But first, the intro. See, this is why I need a teleprompter. So I can see in the camera what I'm clicking. I click the old intro there. Anyway, buddy, good to see. What's going on? It's old school.

Yeah, it's all good, man. That was before vibe coding and before these laughs gave us a quality intro video that I was able to put something over. We can pretend the Jays are in a World Series. Yeah. Simpler times.

Ottawa has a good CFL team. That's right. And inflation is a lot of sending. So yeah, everything's wonderful. Joey, have you not noticed the weather over here has been fan past?

It has been nice. But the problem is that this means my wife is nagging me cut the grass again and I don't really want to. Although it seems like if it's going to be nice all week, I'll probably do it one more time. I'm surprised you haven't winterized your lawnmower. He's generally this thing. I don't, I don't winter. I don't winterize my lawnmower.

Oh, is it a how many starts? How many pulls to get that thing started in this spring? One, maybe two, maybe two. Yeah. Very nice. Yeah. Why, what do you do? You put any, you put any freeze in there over the, uh,

fuel stabilizer. You put in the non-ethanol gas fuel stabilizer. Yeah. And cross your fingers. But no, generally, that's good enough. And then it's just, it's good to go comes spring. Of course, it's oil before it goes away for the winter. What if I just drain the tank to zero?

The fuel to zero. It doesn't, you have to drain the carb. So you have to waste its totality. And hopefully nothing is left in there to gum it up. So, yeah. So far. So good. The better just put the stabilizer in joy.

Why don't I just put a miner in my garage and keep it hot? Why don't I just do that? It's got to be used, my friend. I can't believe it's turning into this type of. discussion. But yeah, it's got to be you. The fuel has got a flow or else it will gum up and the carbs and then the jets don't work and then you're stuck.

Damn. Take it out, clean it, put it back together. No, I'll do that though. Fuel Stabilizer. Add it to my Amazon list. Sirie. Claude, get that for me and make no mistakes. Okay. Yeah. Anyway. Joey, what do you think? We should do some of the sponsor? Sponsor. Sponsor of all things,

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Going to be sick. Let's do some boosts. Well, I got five notable boosts this week. And number one, we have Rev Hoddle at 420 sats. There's a couple of 220 sats, but this is the first of two. He said, what are some assessments of potential risks and success in Bitcoin that was incorrect at this point. Seems like early Bitcoiners were able

to assess potential very well. Now it's just eternal September. That's a very good question. Risks. Trusting, I guess, trusting the wrong people that needed, you shouldn't be trusting. Trusting yourselves. The risks were easier to assess in 2013,

12, 11 than they are now. But people are more than willing to just trust devices and have it. Yeah. the entropy before. Like, you know what? In the past, you shouldn't have done that. People didn't. And now people are more willing to do it. So that's too bad. But man, it just seems like it's, the price hasn't moved the way a lot of Bitcoiners expected it to move. And here we are. Well, you're competing. I mean, we've talked about this before. You're competing with a lot

of fast money options like betting markets, sports gambling, like you name it, right? There's a lot going on now. That wasn't the case a while ago. But I think this is the most important time to hold Bitcoin. I don't know if it's in our notes, but we just talked on Bitcast about how the UK is now returning to, returning to true form over there. They're going to start taking any money you owe in taxes directly out of your accounts, business, personal or otherwise. And so like Bitcoin is the only relation is the only money you can have that doesn't have a pull relationship with the government, which is just invaluable. The freedom aspect of this and the sort of protection you get is invaluable in 2026.

And I think it's going to get more and more so as time goes on here. I really feel strongly about that. Well, if you ask any of the AIs out there and you just ask a more simple question, if you were funding yourself from scratch, what single currency would you use to fund yourself? And the answer will always be Bitcoin. I find it to be very interesting. Make it that what you will. Rev Hoddle, another 420 sats.

He says, working on a deal with Twana, 256 heat. Thanks for verifying. I was talking with the real dude. This is why Noster is so valuable. It is a way to verify yourself with a third party. Everyone should be a Noster. Start building Pau on your identity now. Proof of it.

So I think that in this case, Noster has lost. It seems to have lost a lot of esteem. For now. But the thing is that you, if you really, I'm going to steal this from Walker, who just said it on the other show too.

that if you really need to post something and you can't risk it not getting out there, you can't risk it being taken down, there's only one place you can do it and it's Noster. So it's a sort of, you know, soldier in the garden situation, right? You want to have that option if it's needed. And right now that's really the only place you can do that. Nostra, when you go to it, though, it's just an echo chamber. Oh, yeah, sure. I'm not suggesting that the community is anything special.

I love that it's mostly Bitcoin, but you're right. I think it is a bit of an echo chamber. No, I mean, I think it depends on who you follow. Depending on who you follow, who's in your inner circle there, it's going to be mostly that. If it's going to be baseball, if it's going to be Bitcoin, if it's going to be whatever it may be. And that's what it feeds you. It feeds you what's on who you follow and surely got. So the last time I used it, it just lost a lot of steam.

And Elon doesn't seem to be policing much on X these days. Do you recall anything from X where they say, I can't post it? I got a warning. My account was blocked yesterday. somebody reported one of my tweets for something I won't even talk about because I don't want to give this any air time. But yeah. So it is still possible to get somebody in a little bit of hot water. But whatever, you know, it's it is what it is.

It's still the best free speech platform. And, you know, if I had pushed back on the algro there, what would have happened? I don't know. Probably it would have been fine. But whatever, I don't have the family. Maybe, yeah. Depending on exactly what you said at. And I want to go into that.

Big Daddy D. I wonder if that's D or buddy. Anyways, 500 sats. He says, that's what D's going by now and his post, Coin Kidger. Big Daddy, is he a Gigolo? What are we talking about here? From Hoddle to Big Daddy. It says, bring back the South Park thumbnails.

Love you. Love you all. Love the show. Love me some bitcoins. Yeah. Joey, there you go. Sometimes the creativity gets me. Like we had, did you see the one I used for Access of Easy a little while ago, the second iPhone zero day?

I put the Apple CEO, the new Apple CEO in Georgia. Bush's classroom picture where he's finding about the second tower and the text is there's been a

second zero day who's the guy's what's the guy's name by the way John Turnus John Turnus Okay Yeah

I'm black cold Sometimes the creative You know The creativity hits me Other times I try and just like Get something out of Chachipit that I think is pretty good Like I like today's too

There's a meta on YouTube Like if you want to play the YouTube game You got to use like the heavy face Yeah, the face, big text. Yeah. And so, like, I don't think it's that bad, but, you know, I, I apologize to Luke Mitchich on Bigcast. They may as well do it here, too.

He was right. The thumbnail guys were right. Like, it does make a difference. So, uh, I, I stay corrected on that. Always good to learn. How about how about I just say that? Mo BTC Dix 500 stats says this time next year, I expect cold storage will be greatly improved.

Pain, however brutal is, a lot of time needed. progress. Yeah, no doubt, man. Do you think I think they'll change that fast in the next year? Man, I think it's always improving, but To be honest with you, I think like foundation is doing

a lot of good work. Then I, then, you know, so I look at, I look at two stories, right? I'll give you two stories. Foundation who's never had a problem with hardware. You know, has not had a problem with anything related to their service, I don't think, except they did have like a news, like an email leak

or something like that years ago. they're trying to go the way that cold card was going where they're giving people more options and you can air gap and do all this other stuff, add your own entropy, great. Then I look at the company that is at the center of the current issue, ledger, and I see that they're releasing a fucking cell phone, basically. Why would you ever want to walk around with a cell phone that had the ledger branding on it? Then again, this is the company who gave you the bucket hat with the fucking room to dangle your USB key, right? So the hardware is getting better, but I think the guys, there's a little bit, just a tiny bit right now of grave dancing going on in the hardware space that probably needs to stop.

Well, if you're looking at from like the Seed Siner point of view and the FUD that was surrounded their project by the leader of CoinCard. Who do you think owns the Seed Siner fucking URL still? MVK does. It's still pointing to Cold Card. I'm pretty sure something of that nature is going on. It's been asked for him to release it. And today, I mean, he's not going to do it. Ownership, you know, he has ownership to it, I guess. How many people left on that boat?

D's out. I won't say who their business development person is, but I don't know if he's still there. That's a small company to begin with, right? So how many people are still there? Like, is NVK responding to tweets now? Like, is that what he's spending his day doing? Somebody's responding to tweets. And it's not D.

So who is it? That's a good question. That's a crazy fall from grace to go from, you know, we're the best hardware wallet to responding to angry people on Twitter in a professional manner that you just know he does not want to be using, right? And it's almost two months. Two months it will be in, I think, a week and a half from now. And it's been radio silence from NVK up until now. That's, I suppose that's because of legal advice. For sure.

For sure. Just the office. I shouldn't say for sure, but probably. Yeah. The optics look just so fucking bad. But, you know what? What's his profile say? Did he change his profile?

I think he did, right? He has it like as something. What did it say before? I forget. I think now it says something like, we're the first or whatever. The security paradigm has significantly changed. Moral panic and influencers won't protect you.

Do your own research. Wow. Look at that. Interesting. Business cat. 1337 sets. He writes in, Gears of War

Astrogen Day. Is that better than Queers of War? I don't know. Have they gone woke? Oh, big time. The lead character in that game is like a Butch lesbian, I think. I think we talked about it last week. Yeah.

Yeah. The game apparently plays well, but the story is just like, it's too much. I actually am starting to have like a little bit of fear that GTA is going to be like that. Yes. a little bit. Come on.

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt because they just have such a good track record when it comes to delivering a good story. But you're right. I mean, there's a hint of like... Where's your Wurio meter? Out of 100. Where are you? Three.

Three out of a hundred? Yeah. It's still very... Because like I said, these guys, I'm giving them a lot of fucking 20. You're right, though. You're right. Like Red Dead Redemption came

out just before woke, right? I think, or maybe during peak woke, 2018, 19, something like that. RDR2 came out, and that game was like, psycho. Great game. We'll see. I mean, obviously, the sad part is I'm going to play

no matter what, but whatever. Todd is out this week. My buddies and me are back on arc raters. Actually, I got to talk to D. D's my arc raters, Sherpa. He always, he knows what to do in that game, big time. He's an expert. See, Officer Satstack is saying that woke GTA would be a joke.

They won't F this up. And I totally, I'm on that side of the fence. I hope you're right. There's that little doubt of doubt I have in my head that, yeah, they're going to screw it up. But just their track record is so damn good. And maybe I'm just being just full of hopium. Could be that. And I'm just, you know, I'm hoping for it just a killer game again.

But man, this is going to be such a good release. Like, short the world at that time. Lock in. Lock in. Thursday. And it's going to be Thursday. comes out. I'm not sure how long it's going to wow, really? So

you're going to have Friday, Saturday, Sunday that is if there's no game one, day one patches need to be applied and every server is going to be sending out the whole download like you know what I mean? Like there's going to be a huge strain on servers out there.

I don't care. I don't give a shit. So you may not, I mean I'll be, I'll be, I'll turn the thing out. I mean, I already told you. Me and you talked about this, I'm not going to be at work. Okay. So, I need to be locked in. I need to be stealing cars. I need to be killing civilians.

I need to be causing all kinds of trouble. I need to be doing side quests. All right. The rappers in the game need to be writing songs about my escapades. That's what kind of player I'm going to be in single player. That's what I need to be doing that weekend. I realize I have a daughter. She's going to be two by that time.

And I need to lock in on GTA. I'm sorry. That's how it is. Yeah. Well, you know, we should be also locking in in the story with MSCI and MSTR, which seems to be somewhat of a thorn and inside for MSTR and people that are investors in them, people looking to invest, maybe a good time to invest in them. I don't fall in either those two categories.

At least not directly. Is my CPP buying any MSTR indirectly? So yeah, I guess I am, but it's not by choice. You're an MSTR bowl. You're an MSTR bull. But not by choice. Anyway, so it's funny because after all these years we had MSTR, they've been celebrating themselves at some sort of bridge between Fiat and Bitcoin

and giving people a way to use stuff like ETFs and pension funds and, you know, shit like that, that they could just get exposure to the price of Bitcoin through MSTR. And I get that. But this whole kind of proxy stuff is probably going to be coming to an end if everything plays out the way I think it's going to play out. There could be some massive headwinds for MSTR. And because we just had information last week that the MSCI index, they may be changing how they're going to be officially approving the eligibility rules for their global investment and global investable market indexes. and MSTR is part of those. And they provide a rationale for this.

It's not like they just singling out MSTR. There's some, you know, so the rationale they're saying is that they want to not deal or not have companies under there that are non-operating companies. So you got to be some sort of business that sells something. That's the key word, man. You got to have a business. Yeah. Yeah, like you're not just, and I mean, I'll go a little bit further because according to their definition, definition, if you look at it, MSTR is then in the crosshair because they are, you know, right now a lot of passive investments coming in.

And if that slows down and it will slow down tremendously, that's going to obviously impact the price of it. So MSCI's new criteria, they're going to test whether a company holds a substantial amount of operating assets relative to its overall valuation. And look at that, that just screams MSTR. And then if they get past that, they're going to have to pass a financial test as a way to weed out businesses that, you know, try to include businesses that have a good or service that they provide as their main line of business rather than just simply accumulating assets or asset accumulation plays. But, I mean, on a side note, I'm wondering, does Brookshire Hathaway also meet this test? right i mean if you think about it um i could be wrong i mean i'm i digress here but berkshire hathaway's the thing is okay so i'll tell you why berkshire meets it and mster doesn't but you finish a rap first and we'll no i'm just wondering if they're going to also be subjected to this

or uh if not i mean maybe mshtr is being you know singled out in a way they're not mster is definitely not being single though i mean if brookshire hathaway is not i mean the kind of the same thing, right? They're just, they're accumulating, they're accumulating, uh, assets in a way, but whatever. I mean, what's the main line of a Brookshire Hathaway? What, what sort of good for service they provide? It's just buying up other companies, right? And, and, and doing so, buying low, selling high, that's their thing. And it's an asset accumulation business, right? So I just look at that. There's, there's some similarity here, but if things do happen to play out, worst case scenario that MSTR is then excluded. And,

JP Morgan, they had dart throwers out there that did some estimates. And they say that if everything happens and they get dumped, well, 2.8 billion enforced capital outflow is going to happen as a result. 3.1 of outstanding shares right now are in passive funds that track the MSCI and they hold around 13 million MSTR shares. So that's, you know, 3.1% of the flow. Yeah. That's a significant amount. And MSTR obviously does not want this to happen. Why it's going to impact their ability to raise funds.

It's going to just crush the valuation of the company. So they came up with a public statement. They were criticizing these rules as arbitrary and unfair. And they're arguing that Bitcoin as a primary treasury asset, it actually complies with the U.S. accounting frameworks. and it doesn't erase any of the businesses that they do. They do active enterprise software business that they are able to sell that product, some products to people.

And MSTR, but they have to remember something here. They may be pissed. They may want to still be included, but remember, we're dealing with a game that somebody else has defined the rules. Those rules can change on the go at any time because it's their game. If you want to play their game, you got to play by their rules. So I understand their criticism, but that's just, you know, they did come out with a statement,

and I think it's out of spite. And MSTR said, Bitcoin doesn't need MSCI, neither does microstrategy. And it's almost like an admission of defeat with that statement. And I look at it, the statement is half right. certainly Bitcoin doesn't need MSCI. I'm not sure about MSTR needing it. Time will tell, but I for sure Bitcoin doesn't need it because it's, and they are also saying that in exclusion of this, this is funny.

The exclusion would create some short-term volatility. Yeah, I don't fucking shit. And it's going to force a lot of people to sell, but they sell that the volume would be manageable and equivalent to less than a single heavy day of trading of the stock. I wish I was if I was an investor I would be as optimistic as

these guys right because just the news when it came out their stock dropped around 10%. Just the news of it. I know it's the whole thing you know sell the news but this is the thing this shit is just the beginning

and there could be dumping a lot of shares potentially in the next little while and there's two key dates to remember November 11th is going to be the finalization of everything from MSCI and then the new rules take an effect November 30th. So the clock is ticking.

We may hear they may be excluded by mid-November and by end of November is when they're forcibly taken off at the end of the market closed. So that's, you know, there could be a lot of cell pressure for the next six weeks, five weeks for MSTR. Could be a good of buying opportunity

if you want to get into it. I'll be honest. I'm not. But, you know, do whatever you want. It's a gambling if you ask me. It's all fiat games. by Bitcoin. I think for a guy who doesn't care about MSCI, basically all his recent activity point in a different direction. They all point to him actually caring about being included on that index.

It's easy to give that interview that he just gave on Friday, knowing that you're going to be out of the index, you know, sort of you can't fire me, I quit type stuff, which is typical for him to be honest with you at this point. It's easy to give that interview once you have, already know you're out. If you look back about a year ago, eight months ago, something like that, you'll remember that MSTR wrote this very public letter about how MSCI was making a mistake. And Siler went on a bit of a media blitz. I think Fong may have as well talking about this exact

thing, how operating assets, you know, it's not a gap category. Like, you know, it's this stuff that they've been saying for a while now about the nature of the business. And I think Saylor has a couple of problems that he's got to deal with, maybe first in terms of the downward pressure on the price. Over the last two weeks, MSTR has spent $9 defending the price of the preferred stock for every $1 it spent buying Bitcoin. This is only possible if you have this, I don't want to say only possible, but it is made easier by having, the underlying passive bid coming from the index, 3% of that float, 13 million shares. We've talked before about how that defense of the preferred does dilute the MSTRCOM and shareholders. It lowers the Bitcoin per share, blah, blah, blah.

And for a guy to suddenly be very concerned about what counts in real accounting is interesting to me because he's got a whole dashboard full of made-up metrics to make his company look better than basically any gap standard. That's problem number one. problem number two is that he simply doesn't have an operating business that people want to invest in. Look at the share price before Bitcoin. That's his other problem. And I think when you talk about Berkshire Hathaway, Berkshire's an interesting case study in what an operating business looks like.

Berkshire Hathaway is a, you know, ostensibly a holding company, but they exercise a level of expertise in these acquisitions that's basically unmatched across the industry. They buy better companies at better prices before anyone else wants to and watch the things rip. There's value there. The product that's being offered is the in-house expertise. Sailor is offering Bitcoin holdings. And he's not the only company that looks like a fund of sorts to have this problem. Other commodity companies have been caught in the crosshairs of the MSCI in the past as well. And so the idea that they're singling out sailor, I think, is just wrong.

He's got this main character syndrome that, again, has come through in a lot of his recent media, whether it's with friendly counterpart or unfriendly counterpart. And I think I've said this before, even though I am an MSCR shareholder now and I continue to buy once a week, he should resign. He should not be the face of that company any longer. And I know I know he's not the CEO, but he is ostensibly still the guy at the helm of that company. And I think he should hand it off to somebody else, someone who's got a little bit more vision and a little it more finesse, to be honest with you, because his shtick has run its course. And MSCI doesn't care about digital real estate and Manhattan real estate and digital credit and all this other stuff.

You could honestly let him make the case to me that part of the reason he went to digital credit route is because he wanted to be able to say, well, look at the thing I'm selling. This is my, you know, this is my Berkshire Hathaway product, right? I'm the only guy in the market doing this, except he's not, right? And so now he doesn't even have that to lean on, really. It's, to me, it's not that hard a story. I don't know what this is going to do for the price long term, but I suspect that, you know, this is going to, it's going to be a lesson to Bitcoin companies. And this will put to bed, I think, once and for all, this S&P inclusion, whether the price

of Bitcoin rips higher or not, I don't think he's going to be able to get in the S&P. Ultimately, that comes down to a vote. There's some other stuff that goes on there, too, obviously. But ultimately it comes down to a vote. So I think this is the right decision by MSCI. And to be honest with you, I don't expect them to issue a statement related to MSTR. I don't think anyone in MSCI is looking at MSTR and going, oh, we have to contend with this guy. Like, it's just like another Bitcoin echo chamber style story that I think a lot of MSTR shareholders are upset about or whatever.

But I just, you know, I think this is the right choice. This is going to really impact the price of Bitcoin in a short term. When this happens, it's going to bleed into the... It depends on how much the price of the stock drops. Like the stock, you know, you said it in Arkansas and the chat said it too. Like the stock dropped 10% on Friday. That's got to be your sell-the-news day. Now, the question is, how much more will it drop?

I don't know. You know, the more likely outcome, in my opinion, is that you have this slow bleed out between the reporting period and the adjustment period, right? and then the adjustment period finishes it, and then any future buys don't get that passive bid. That's the big thing. So far, he's been able to distribute pain to the common shareholders. And maybe it's been because the MSCI bid has offered him a little bit of protection. But without that, he's got to convince people to buy that stock individually.

That is a decision that's not being made right now. It doesn't seem like. So I don't know. What did the stock do today? My phone's over there. I'm vibe coding a whoop app replacement, but I don't know what the stock price is. guess is it's flat or up a little bit today probably if I had to guess. Yeah, 1% I'm sorry, 0.8% down.

Okay. Even with after market training. So it's 136. I haven't looked at this for a while. So down 17% in the past five days. Yeah. Holy shit. Down 20% in a month?

Yeah. Yeah. It's been, it's been tough. Yeah. Oh, no, that's not, that's dollars. My mistake. Sorry, that's my mistake. I'm looking at this not percent.

That's it's down. It's been, it's been a tough. It's been a toughish month because he's, again, like, his messaging needs work, number one. But I think, I just think more and more, the market is looking at this and going, why would I buy this? Like, why? And this is, by the way, like his stock prices, whatever it's at, 120 something, he said, that's without the Anthropic IPO. Okay. That's without the Open AI IPO.

That's with SpaceX still in its infancy as far as trading. that's before SpaceX and Tesla become one share price. There's a lot of moving pieces in the market that I don't think people are accounting for. There's a disconnect. I'm looking at the last six months, down 20%, Bitcoin up 6%

in the past 6%. Like, wow, this is a huge disconnect. Bitcoin up 1.8%. He's been diluting. I know we joke about how the holders of MSTR have been gluttons for punishment, but that dilution, like it does, it seems to have come into cost.

Now, if you ask me what I think the price is going to do, I think if you get another Bitcoin rip, like a $300 per share MSTR target is like fairly conservative. But that's where I'll be taking some money off the table for sure. Because I don't want to ride this any longer than I have to, number one. And number two, I'm not convinced that people are still interested in this thing if Bitcoin's at 150, 200, whatever, right? And, you know, the interesting thing to me is that Bitcoin seems to have made its bottom already around 60, you know, knock on wood, obviously.

And is now chopping kind of higher. The chart looks pretty good, medium term. Like, I don't know if you're a bitcoiner and you have this good feeling about Bitcoin and you don't have like for us, like we have a tax advantage account. But let's say you didn't. Like, why would you, why would you venture into the stock market? Why not just buy spot and ride, right? Like, that's, it's, it's, I would even argue, even if you have the tax advantage, like, why do that? Because I do it.

I mean, I told you this before it. I do it. And I'm sure other people do it too because they have fiat expenses that require, you know, cash. And so I can't sit. I'm not going to put it under my bed. I'm going to put in something I think is going to rip. Like, that's just how I am.

Not everyone is like that, but that's how I am. And so. Or you could just, you could just pay your expenses with cash and whatever is left over. you buy spot and you don't even have a guy to think about any of this is that way at least you know you're meeting your debt obligations and you're also accumulating corn at the same time and you're not getting any exposure to the fiat markets whatsoever so that's another option um whatever fulls your boat i'm not trying to lecture anybody and not it's certainly not you joey and everybody has an opportunity to do whatever to hell they want to do and to be honest i hope it works out for you in the

best this is a plural yeah no for sure for sure because i don't want to i don't want to see any anybody get wrecked, but I do know that at least by holding onto my keys, I know that I have at least a sense of security with my financial future. But I can't say the same about these other people that got wrenched attacks. He's got a few stories that. So number one, we have a story for this guy named Realist on X. And he writes, if you live in the UK and do crypto, get the fuck out. Just got my house invaded, taped up, held at knife point, and robbed for $800,000.

No, this is not satire. And so Buddy was restrained. He, these guys, they taped him up and they held three knives to his face. And at the same time, the intruders, they were able to have him hand over access to his digital assets, Bitcoin and or shit coins. It's also some physical valuables. So they took $40,000 from his everyday hot wallets. It's a lot of money just hanging in a hot wallet. Approximately $720,000 from his ledger.

And also they took Rolex watches and his smartphone. And they smashed the phone as a way to prevent him from calling emergency services. There was no life-threatening injuries. And within 30 minutes, the traders, these guys, they got this stuff. They traded it and they washed it on different blockchains. So it was a way to try to hide their trail. And so this is the first of a few cases we're talking about today. In the UK, there's already 20 cases of these $5.

or wrench attacks happening in 2026. The first half of 2026 alone. And in France, we've talked about it before. This is going on an accelerated pace. You mentioned in previous shows many times about not having access to your keys. It's just the easiest thing. That way, what could they do? If you don't have it, you can't bleed blood from a stone.

And you can't, man. And like, did we even cover on this show the Canadian military story? The guys in Toronto, like the military members of our army who kidnapped the in Toronto looking for crypto. We'll talk about that. That's fucked, man. Like, man, there's nothing. There's, okay, there's not no benefits

to having your keys at home, fine. But like, the idea that you would keep everything in the same place where you live, why? Why? Just don't do it. People want convenience, right? Just like they want to have it on a hot wallet. I guess if you got 50K out of a hot wallet, yeah,

you care a lot of experience at that point. Yeah, maybe you're right. I mean, the fact that he had that much, But I mean, I think it's a good way to segue to the next $5 wrench attack story. Because back on July 25th of this year, a man was approached by suspects near the Finch Avenue East and Bayview area in North York. And he was walking to his car when they approached him. Buddy was abducted and the motive of all this, Bitcoin's and or shit coins. investigators say the victim was targeted because of the access of significant digital asset holdings.

How they figured out he has a lot of Bitcoin or shit coins and he had direct access to it, I don't know. Maybe they got lucky or maybe they were able to do enough investigating and finally just hit this guy as he walked into his car. But he was eventually released and he did receive several threats to never contact the police, but he did. And a good thing he did because what happened, the police, the Toronto Police integrated kidnapping unit got involved right away. And within 24 hours, they tracked down two suspects and arrested them. One was the first name is funny, Seifadine, Seifadine, Adam.

And the other is 24-year-old Rahim Bishop Jackson. And so since there's a few others, please dug down even further. and realized this wasn't just a two-man job. And so the investigation continued August 11th. They arrested three more people. I'm not even going to pronounce the first guy's name, but last name is Fernando. Second one, James Borneau.

And third one is Christian Darbandi. No, it's not Randy Bull Bandi. It's Darbandi. And again, on September 24th, two more suspects were nabbed. This time, Jack Miley and Sue Haib. I won't even pronounce the last name. If you're doing the math,

seven people in total were arrested charge. Ongoing probably too. Seven over the course of four months. I think I just heard there. And that was from July to September. And so what's fucked up about this, you hinted at it. Three of the suspects, Fernando, Mourneau, and Miley were members of the Canadian

armed forces. And Fernando and Mourneau held the rank of Bombadier. And Fernando enrolled in the reservist back in January 2020. Never deployed. Marno joined in March 2018, deployed in 2020 on Operation Laser during the COVID-19 pandemic. I wonder if stolen pizza was involved on that operation. If you've been listening long enough to know that joke, God bless you. I want to follow you on Twitter.

In all, investigators seize a shotgun, two firearms silencers. Silencers seem to be a big thing these days and other weapons. also 2,000 rounds of ammunition and according to Toronto Police the ammunition ammunition ammunition was Ammunition I was thinking GTA on the mind

I was thinking GTA yeah let's go to ammunition ammunition was what stolen from the Canadian armed forces they're doing tracking over there clearly not because these guys are able to steal a bunch of rounds fucked up Joey

the five dollar wrench attacks they're even getting people involved in the military that aren't impacted in Wainwright And we'll talk about Rainwright in a little while. What are we going to talk about is no details. That's exactly what we're talking about.

The interesting thing about the military, the sort of Toronto Junta here, kidnapping fucking crypto holders. Len, how many times do we hear that people need to turn in their registered guns because they're dangerous? Meanwhile, the fucking military lost 2,500 rounds and we never fucking heard about it. There was no press release, no information, nothing. And meanwhile, these guys were using it to kidnap a guy for his fucking hardware wallet or whatever or his exchange password.

It doesn't really say what they were after. But like, dude, we're living in the twilight zone. It is psycho. What's going on out there? And I just like, again, guys, just don't, just don't do it. Don't keep your Bitcoin at your house. Okay. Don't keep your crypto, whatever, in a hard wallet, hot wallet.

you know, in your browser or whatever the hell you guys are doing in Crypto Land. There's just no point. Like, if you think that you are immune to something like this, you're crazy. And like me and Len would know better than most. Like my face is out there. People know who I am. I am the most paranoid, but also the most relaxed. Because, you know, I don't have anything to worry about.

People come to my house, no problem. What are you going to do? Nothing here. Okay. There's nothing for you here. You go to Lenshouse, nothing for you there. Oh, I'd be so pissed if they took my close to 0.1 Bitcoin. They'd be so fucking pissed.

If someone came here, they'd be more likely to try and get my fucking GPU of this computer. Probably the most valuable thing in those. This is the thing that I don't think people realize is that, you know, we talk on the show about the ongoing sort of like, you know, third worldification of Canada and the states and all these other places comes with crime, obviously, maybe the most obvious side effect of all these things. you have a fair or not, you have a responsibility to protect yourself. And one of the things you can do, sort of like arming up or whatever, is this.

It's very simple. Just follow these instructions. Do not keep your coin keys, hardware, hot wallets, whatever. No phone shit. Like you don't need it. You don't need it. Simple as that. Everything has an address generator anyways now.

So it's not like, and I know you guys are saying, Like, oh, Joey, how do you verify your receive addresses? Okay, I'll be honest with you? I don't. I don't. Sorry. But so far, so good. Okay.

Like, it all seems to be going to the right places when I fucking get Bitcoin. Like, you have to have some understanding of, yeah, there's tradeoff. But what, like, where do you want to make your trade off? I would say safety is a good place personally. Okay. That's just me. This is why this next device that we'll be talking about is a wonderful thing. Like the Adam Ledger, this is a new type of phone.

that is being released, it has been released by Ledger. And, you know, this is news, I guess, they're trying to say that's a better late than never thing, but I would say never was probably the better way of doing things with this stuff. But hopefully the stuff has blast processing in it.

I'm just hoping it does. Apparently it's like for AI too. Did I see this right in the ad? Well, $849 is the thing. It's a hybrid security device, and it's supposed to bridge the gap between mobile apps and hardware isolated security. That's what they're claiming it to be. And there's some sort of dual OS infrastructure involved. And before the more you say, the less I like it, dual OS infrastructure, fucking mobile apps.

Like, why? So you got to take a step back. You got to understand, like phones like Apple and Android, they have issues with potential zero-day attacks that could input. exploit them, right? And the more people use those with apps on them to hold your $40,000 of crypto like that guy in the UK did, you know, you're going to potentially get rugged in the long run. And there's also, on the flip side,

you're doing stuff with cold card, could be clunky to use. So they say enter the Ledger Adam. This is going to basically bridge that gap, make things easier for everybody. And it's powered by Android. And they say you could run your mobile applications on it, your wallet interfaces directly in the device. And it has a secure element chip in it running Ledger's proprietary Ledger OS.

And, yeah, so that way you're able to... You smell the enthusiasm from here coming off the land there. I can tell you, I'm not going to do it. There's a privacy cutoff switch. This I find cool. There's a switch on the side of it. It cuts off direct access to your microphone and camera. And, yeah.

I don't know why anybody wants this. Yeah, I don't know. The switch is a good thing that, especially that cuts things off. That's like one good future. I'll give them that. But, you know. Why would you ever put yourself in a situation where you have to trust a device like a phone

and like towed around with you places? Like you can, if you look at one of the things that made the old ledgers good. Like I could, what was, what is the one I have? Not the nano X. The nano S maybe or S plus or something. I forget. The S was the old one that I think I bought.

That's the 2017 one. I must have got the same. I also got the same one. It was the S. And you know what? But the time it was, I trashed it. The screen was so fucking dim. Wasn't it?

I don't know if you had the same problem on yours. It was just, yeah. I haven't looked at mine in a decade. So I don't know. Like, I have no idea what it looks like. The other, the other thing, the thing I liked about those devices is that they were, like, obscure. Like, it didn't really have any real. markings on it, it looked like a thumb drive. It had like the ledger

etching maybe. Is that it? No, it's a thumb drive. It's the regular old thumb drive. There's like there's like a ledger etching I think in the silver part of the ledger nano but like that was it. It was pretty otherwise like nondescript and these other these other hardware devices like again I have there's a ledger in here somewhere that I bought after the cold card thing. I don't remember where I put it but it has a big ledger. It has a big ledger logo on it. Like, why?

Like the Trezer has like a very distinct, like a distinct look. Like, why? Why do you do that? You should try and make it look like another piece of hardware so that if people want to keep it in their house, it doesn't look like a fucking Bitcoin wallet. Isn't that the obvious thing? Why don't these guys understand this? Why does Ledger make a device with a giant fucking logo on it when they are like right now

at the center of a fucking wrench attack problem? and the center of a hardware attack problem and the center of a data leak like why do they do this? Where is the self-awareness from these companies? Ledger has billions of dollars to not make a bad decision like this and they just keep fucking doing it.

Why? Well, let's be honest, they have billions of dollars of other people's funds that you can easily run from them. Do you know what the new ledger has on it? The fucking nano, I think it's called a nano. I got to look this up while I talk about it. But the ledger nano has, the ledger

Nano has this fucking screen on it. Ledger Nano Gen 5. Is this it? You're complaining about the form factor of it. I mean, it's the form factor, but the fact that they bake their fucking branding on it. And you said it earlier in a show at the very beginning that this is the company that they made the ledger wear where you could put your ledger. The bucket hat.

Yeah, the Richard Hart bucket hat. We'll talk about Richard Hart in a sec. So, you know, the fact that they are selling a shit like that, who's their target customer? Is it really Bitcoiners or is your shitcoiners? I think it's just like, it's people who want to signal wealth is who I think it is. I don't know. There's Bitcoiners and shit corners that are like that. But I do think it's people who want to signal wealth more than any other, more than any other descriptor.

That's the one I think that catches it the best. the fact that you could build your own signing device with off-the-shelf components yes I don't know why people would even consider something you're a DIY maxi now I like it and I haven't gone down that path I just look at it and I say you know what

that seems like the correct way of doing things I still have my cold card I was just about to say shit the cold card still works like if you roll dice like I mean eventually it's going to come off it for me When something better comes along or you build something yourself or whatever. But for now, like you're not going to, and we say this all the time.

I think we even said it the night of the hack when Mark came on and the three of us did like a Friday night show. Like you're not going to freak out and panic if you roll dice with a cold card and then like go to a ledger for shits and giggles. Now I will admit, like I tried all these hardro balls. So I tried the foundation. I tried the Nano. I tried the Treasur. I tried the Bickey. And I tried a Bitbox.

The bitbox is actually, it's definitely here somewhere because it has the fantasy football money like I always say. It's not good that I can't find that because I need to find that. But anyway, the thing is that like all these hardware wallets are fine. But they have, they have like, you know, problems that you're just going to run into down the road, whether it's the hardware itself or the, you know, you got to have a companion app. and Trezer, I think, work in Sparrow, but they have companion apps that are good, right? Are they open source? That's the thing.

People are not going to care about that. They don't care. And so they go down this road and you may like it or not like it. But yeah, there's risks. You're right. There are risks there. And like, I don't think people realize that, you know, it was a hard couple of weeks there for Cold Card, for sure.

But how many Cold Card Mark Fours got hacked with the onboard entropy? Any? I think that number is zero. how many cold card Q's got hacked with the onboard entropy I think that number is zero how many mark fives

I think that number is zero and so I'm not endorsing cold card clearly they made a big mistake and tried in my opinion anyway tried to downplay it but like you said and someone asked us this on YouTube in the comments I responded to it the other day

like what if I rolled dice am I still okay like honestly the answer seems to be yeah So. And there's no need to upgrade the firmware, in my opinion. You don't have to. Do whatever you think is best. I'm not telling you.

The firmware, the dice, like the human, yes, become a cold card episode. The human entropy and like the creation was the whole thing. It was the whole thing. And the C, I see you guys in the chat talking about seed signer and like, yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know about seed signer.

I don't want to build it myself. That's where I draw the line. It's not, from what I gather, it's not that hard. And you're talking about off the shelf. Make a video about it. Make a video for the channel about it. I would love to see it because I really don't. I'm not going to do it.

But maybe if it's easy, I'll give it a shot if you think it's easy. I don't know. Yeah. A few other stories we've got to hit. You have to leave early this morning or today or no? I mean, I would like to because we talked about the referendum before, but I can see here on my WhatsApp chat that I forgot the Redskins are playing tonight, the Monday night game. I totally forgot. I'll do one more story.

sure sure okay we'll cut it off if you want after that we'll go to the rest of the world yeah we're not going to cut it off in 50 minutes don't worry no no so we have the the treasure story if you want one in the near future you're going to have to either order from one of them directly from treasurer or one of their authorized fulfillment centers very few I like this land don't you think this is a good move shouldn't have your hardware about wallet manufacturer do this

I mean I was touting the whole build your own device. I mean, why would I want somebody to do it for me when I could do it? I get the idea what they're trying to do. None of the treasure devices have been hit by the supply chain attack the same way that the ledgers were. And so they decided,

you know what, let's do something before something does happen. So starting January 1, 2027 is when you, if you have to buy a treasure device, you got either buy direct from Treasurer or like I mentioned from one of their verified fulfillment centers. on their official support page. And, yeah, there's nothing else to say that.

This is just a need-jure reaction to what happened. It's a great move. Good for them. I mean, it makes them look more of, they're caring about their customers, I'm guessing, but they lost data from their customers in the past. So how much do they really care about their customers? The best time they plant the tree, you know, if not yesterday, it's today, right?

So the thing I think that I'm not like, I'm not trying to lecture you on this, But, yeah, I get it. If you're building a seat signer, aren't you, like, amplifying the risk of something like this happening? If you got to get parts from different places and, or is the process sort of, like, sufficient to figure out if there's problems along the way? I really don't know. Well, you're using an operating system that's been looked at a bunch of times.

You're using a hardware that is off the shelf that's been reviewed a bunch of times. It's not like when you're buying it. People say, oh, you're getting that Raspberry Pi Zero. That means you have Bitcoin. and you could be just building a pie hole or you may just want to build an emulator at home. Yeah. There's no way to say that this is directly indicating

that it's going to be used for signing transactions. And nothing is held on, say, like a seat sign or for instance, once it turns off, there's nothing that's held on there. It's not like you could extract any keys from it from what I gather. It's just, it seems like the superior way of doing it.

If you do care about your safety, your Bitcoin, and trying to, you know, cover your tracks to say, I don't have any thing. Like, when you're ordering a raspberry pie, what the fuck? It could be like a million different projects.

It doesn't have to be Bitcoin related. Either way. Yeah. Do you want to talk about Richard Hart or just go straight into the rest of it? Skip it. Skip it. I fucking,

I fucking hate that guy anyways. Oh, man. That's too bad because I love his velvet track suits. Balenciaga. I wouldn't buy. I wouldn't buy. I wouldn't buy any of them. for a buck 50.

I don't know how much. What about tree 50? What about tree 50? No. No, no, no, I'm even a buck.

Anyways, fuck them all. We're going over to the other side. Fuck him too. Stay with us. If you're live with us tonight, don't go anywhere. Len's going to keep going on the other side.

If you're on audio, come back tomorrow for the other half. We'll see you then. Take care.