The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - tfw you lose 300 million in BTC (LIQUID BITCOIN HACK)

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

About 4,000 BTC, worth roughly US$320 million at the time, was withdrawn from Liquid's federation wallet. Liquid says its signing keys were not compromised. How did the safeguards allow the withdrawal, and what does that mean for people holding L-BTC?This week's Canadian Bitcoiners discussion connects Liquid's reserve risk with Trezor's shipping-provider breach, where another roughly 67,000 customers were exposed despite assurances that older data had been deleted. The wider agenda covers Bitcoin treasury-company risks and Canada's jobs, procurement and institutional-accountability stories. The common question: what are you still trusting after you take control of your keys?Which deserves more scrutiny: the wallet, the bridge, or the companies keeping your personal data?Canadian Bitcoiners PodcastWebsite: https://canadianbitcoiners.comSubscribe and turn on notifications — new episodes live Monday nights.READ MORELiquid's incident statement: https://x.com/Liquid_BTC/status/2096696272447218108Trezor's updated disclosure: https://trezor.io/blog/news/recent-customer-data-exposed-in-shipping-provider-incidentReported recovery negotiations: https://www.theblock.co/news/defi/2026-09-07-liquid-network-attacker-says-they-will-return-most-of-4000-btc-after-bug-fix-413673————————————————————————————————SPONSORS🔒 easyDNS — Canadian-owned domains, DNS, email and hosting from an ICANN-accredited company that has accepted Bitcoin since 2013. Use promo code CBPMEDIA for 50% off your first purchase.https://easydns.com⚡ Bull Bitcoin — Canada's non-custodial, Bitcoin-only exchange. CBP listeners get 25% off fees for life.https://app.bullbitcoin.com/registration/cbp🔥 256 Heat — Purpose-built Bitcoin miners that heat your space while producing hashrate. Tell them CBP sent you for a discount.https://256heat.com🎓 Bitcoin Mentor — One-on-one help with wallets, keys, self-custody, inheritance planning and nodes. Every package includes a 30-day money-back guarantee.https://btcmentor.io/aff/joey————————————————————————————————FOLLOW THE SHOW🎙️ CBP: https://x.com/CanadianBTCPod👤 Joey: https://x.com/joeytweeets👤 Len: https://x.com/thebtcpricebot📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/canadianbtcpod/💬 Discord: https://discord.gg/YgPJVbGCZXLISTENSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6WzoIyTowK47rcAmvrS7gtApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-canadian-bitcoiners-podcast-bitcoin-news-with/id1561002990RSS: https://anchor.fm/s/538d43f4/podcast/rss⚠️ Everything in this episode reflects personal opinions only and should not be considered financial advice.#Bitcoin #LiquidNetwork #CanadianBitcoiners

Friends and enemies. Is anyone missing about $300 million or so? I know a guy. We're going to talk about this big liquid hack, of course. Plus the AFD doing big things over in Germany. The Z-Man coming over, looking for a few bucks from our government, and the continued decline of the entire world vis-a-vis clownish behavior. First, though, the intro.

So, you know, the government can say whatever they want about this thing not competing. It's for black market only. It's for this for that. But they're really treating it like a threat. And one of the things that can't be attacked is your self-custody Bitcoin. And one of the things that can be attacked is the ETF. Can't be exposed to that. That's my view.

It's not a good idea. And by the way, that'll hit MSTR or two. It'll probably get other stuff as well. Friends and enemies. Welcome back. Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. Friends and enemies, welcome to the CBP. Want to be better informed.

Listen to Lenin Joe E. Spots is taking care off right off the top. Oh, Bitcoin and Easy DNS. Labor Day. How do you feel? Are you feeling laborious? Are you pro labor, anti-labor? Where do you come down on all these? I just work. I just work, work, work, work and try to keep doing my thing until I stop doing my thing, whenever that may be. How about you, Joe? Are you a labor guy? Did I see a parade? I was not at the parade. I have some buddies who went to the Thai cat game today, which is something I used to do all the time. Yeah, they got killed again. The Thai cat sucked this year. But as always in the CFL, even if you suck, you're only like two. games out of the playoffs, which means really like two games out of the Great Cup final. So, you know, it's, um, everyone's the winner.

Well, they call it the CFL. It stands for Crazy Football League. But anyway, we're going to get to a number of pretty important stories. Big, big news today from today and yesterday from, uh, the liquid hack. Yeah. And, uh, maybe some, some, uh, some gratuity that, uh, our white hat, gray hat, whatever hackers take. And first though, the sponsors, EasyDNS.

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There are nostril relays. And a bunch of other stuff over there, too, including the open claw option that marketing team has spun up for you. So if you want to try something in the open claw world and not have to deal with your own hardware, software, difficulty, whatnot. They have one that is queued up and ready to go for a couple bucks. CBP media is our code. I cannot recommend enough that you go there and patronize marketing team. You get 50% off your first try to buy is. No limit.

No limit. Can't beat that. And obviously Mark's. been a friend of the show for a long time. So head over, use the code and tell me send you all that good stuff and get started, man, build something. It is the AI era of building. And so you have no excuse to let your ideas go to waste.

And it's the time that you should build your stack of Bitcoin and Bull Bitcoin is there to help you do that. And I'm not sure with the prices because my block clock has been rugged. So whatever it may be, I think it's a good time to buy, but some people may think it's a good time to sell. Either way, Bull Bitcoin, they have you covered as a non-custodial exchange. They are going to be more than happy to do this and they don't hold on to your Bitcoin.

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If you do that and sign up All your buys and sells Are going to be cheaper forever Forever so why not use them? 25% off the fees 50% off with Mark You can't beat the stuff we got going on Listen, Len, we got to do the boost

And then we're going to get into Our buddy Adam back And what's going on over at Liquid and Blockstream Anyway, the boost What do we got? We got three of them. We have top W. Cone 250 sats.

And he writes in Trump won for two days. All the talk was about the deal and tariffs, how they would hurt people, jobs, etc. And as soon as he said, name change, all discussion of tarps stop. And then they went ahead and, well, the name has been changed. He won because no one is talking about the real issues. So that's good way of looking at it.

You know, he's deflected everything. They're not talking with the real issues. Trump is in. Carney's in. And here we are. We're just dealing with the aftermath of all this. And we're talking about name change. Name change of a lake.

That's the big story of the day. Whatever. Business cat, 1337, Sats. Very short. You're going to like this one, Joey. He writes, Joey for president and some. Oh, really? President is getting nice.

So he wants you to run. for president, I think it's time you do so. I don't know. Is it possible for an outsider to become president? Ted Cruz tried to do that, but we never really tested that theory. I don't know. Listen, I love the states. I don't live there

obviously, but I've considered moving. I'm considering moving at all times. I always try and keep my options open. Thanks, Luke. I appreciate it. If I run, then you and Brian, you and fundamentals have to be joint press secretaries. I want all my

is going through you guys at the podium. Len, you'll be Secretary of State, I think. We'll put you in the Rubio spot. I appreciate that. I appreciate it. Although I'll have to politely decline because I don't think I'll be able to do my tenure.

It's a client. You know, that's pretty good job opera. I'm surprised here you're going on. I agree, but Joey, I get to meet with the Z man. You get to meet with Netanyahu. Dude, you don't want me to meet with this. We have all the cards.

We'll talk about playing cards. It would be in a rough discussion. Jare writes in 2-2-2-2. two two sats. He says, more folks need to boost these psychos. And thank you very much for that. And that's it for the boost. I just want to say one shout out to Galutz. And he had a new baby arrived just two days ago. Love it. Sorry, three days ago. My bad. Three days ago. And so there's a second baby. This was an easy delivery. And congratulations to Galutz and family 40 days. Love an easy delivery, man. Glad to hear that. Bitcoiners need to be having kids, man. You got to be, you know, explaining your bloodline, expanding your way of thinking and building for the future. And part of that is a kid. Not easy to have a kid for sure, but the joy is never any. My little one now is almost two. And I got to tell you, man, my wife and I say the same thing. We were sitting outside yesterday having an adult beverage there after my little old went to bed. And actually, Manny Manero and his

wife were over last night, but their daughter too. Their daughter's a few months behind my little one. And we're saying that, you know, we've never been busier for sure. And there's two things that are starting to happen now, right? One is she's got her own thoughts, feelings, and the words and expressions to match, which is funny. And the time you spend with her now, there's a lot of remembering day to day that just wasn't the case, you know, four or five months ago. So you got to stay on your toes. Also a lot of repeating. So when I start talking about the CDU in Germany with my wife, I have to say heck those guys instead of

F them. Got to keep on top of the curse words there. The swear jar cannot be full with a two-year-old, that's for sure. Yeah. So what happens when she progresses to the point where she beat you an NBA jam? Do you retire from the game? She'll never. She'll never be the challenge. I like throw down the gauntlet early. see if she could do that. She'll start training her and how to do.

Is it Jordan in the game? Is he not in the game? Jordan's not in the game. He's not in the game. First time she wants to extend her curfew, it'll have to come through an NBA jam head to head for sure. I like that, Joey. Yeah. You know, that's the least we could do for our kids, right?

We try and give them all the knowledge, but we got to give them the culture too. The culture is what's important. You give them not all the tricks, just most of them, just enough that you could still one off them when it comes. Did I tell you about the NBA, Jam, tournament edition, Bulls, Pistons thing. I think I did before. But the coders hated the Bulls so much that the Bulls cannot beat the pistons with a buzzer beater in the fourth quarter when they're down by two points. The shot will never go in.

My God. How about that? So good. So good. Petty. I love it. So you want to talk about our buddies? We have to.

I mean, we put it in the thumbnail. That's the rule, I guess, on YouTube. We got to talk about the thing in the thumbnail as really. we can. So let's do it. It's a good lesson to understand what the heck is an IOU. We got another free lesson that a lot of us hopefully were able to digest, learn, and not follow the same mistakes.

Others do. Remember, when these IOUs, they are applicable for your Fiat Bank. If you made a bet with your bookie, they owe you 50 grand because you guessed the right color of the dildo, like the purple one that got thrown on WNBA floor. Or it even applies to even applies to even a place. applies to liquid joy incredibly it even applies to that so um just because it has bitcoin in name liquid bitcoin doesn't mean it is bitcoin it carries some of the properties but not all of them that bitcoin has and that's it's very important and what happened for those who are

unaware yesterday there was an exploit and somebody drained 4,000 bitcoin crazy from almost almost a third of a billion dollars in six and seen. At the time, yeah, so at the time it was stolen, it was worth around 320-ish million dollars USD. And for people wondering what the heck this 4,000 Bitcoin relating to the total stack they had, it apparently they had 4,200. So they took almost the whole supply leaving them with around 200 Bitcoin on their network. And the first thing we should discuss is the Liquid Federation. And that's a bunch of folks that, or entities that make up, up the Liquid Network, the people that are able to sign these transactions.

And according to Blockstream, the Liquid Federation is I'm reading this direct. It's a group of more than 80 Bitcoin-aligned businesses, including exchanges, infrastructure, companies, and asset managers. This text changed from previously. I copied and paced at this some time ago because I found it to be quite interesting. And it used to read that Liquid Federation is a group of cryptocurrency businesses. including exchanges, trading desks, infrastructure companies, game developers, and more. These are the ones you're trusting with when you're buying or getting anything to do with liquid.

It's an IOU. It's a one-to-one Bitcoin to liquid Bitcoin, but it's still, they have to give you back your Bitcoin. And so, you know, you've got to hope that they're able to help you redeem whatever it is. You have to redeem with them. So they have to say, here are you going to give you back your Bitcoin if you want to give, but they're the ones that make the decision if they want to. So a lot of people were very happily to use Bitcoin for quite some time. They do it because liquid Bitcoin, not Bitcoin.

A lot of people were very happy to use liquid Bitcoin for some time because liquid Bitcoin carries a few unique properties, such as there's speed in transaction. There's privacy and there's also low fees. So when fees are higher, people look in Bitcoin, people look at liquid as an option. But I got to stress, there's no self-cost to here. I mean, they may say that, but it's still. still just an IOU, right? The issue with how this whole liquid thing that transpired this past weekend, just yesterday,

was how the proofs were dealt with in the system and also the caching of the proof results. And I'm being very, very vague here, or at least giving a very high-level overview. I don't want to go too deep into it. But the problem was some people were able to see what was going on. And so they saw the problem existed because there was a commit on GitHub on August, And ultimately, this change was merged on a master around September 1. But because the issue was there from August 3rd to September 1, anybody could have looked at it. Also, it looks like not everybody in the federation was running the latest version.

Hence, we have this attack that happened. So in total, we had 320 million worth of Bitcoin stolen, a liquid, sorry, Bitcoin stolen from Liquid Network. and the liquid network, they decided to pause everything. So they're not going to be able to do any exchanges until this has been resolved, which it may or may not have been. So if I'm on the right track here, this is an 11 of 15 multi-sig. You need 11 entities to agree to sign a transaction to move any Bitcoin off their network.

This is from what I gather. I could be right or wrong. So it's 11 to 15 multi-sig. So I remember some time ago, I remember on, X. There was a space and Francis was on it. This must have been six months a year ago, something like that. And somebody asked a question, what happens if there's a rugging going on? And all of it, Bitcoin is either drained or stolen from liquid. And Francis came up and he was very strong with his response saying, look, to do this, you got to align yourself with at least

11 different members. You have to convince them to do something wrong. And the possibility of doing that is virtually impossible. You might be able to convince one. Maybe at best you could convince one. But 11, hell no. So he was talking about this would require a coordinated effort that would be impossible to achieve. Yeah, that's true. But something that is achievable is finding a bug in the software.

And somebody used, Claude Fable ran a simple, look, a simple test into look at this code. Is that confirmed or you just think it's an AI review? It could be from Claude Fable. It could be from something else because somebody posted screenshots of when they put the input into Fable and they posted what the output was. They could have used Kimmy K3 to use something else. But what I'm trying to get at it is this was available to be seen from August 3rd. And for about a month, a little over a month, it was able for somebody to look at it and take advantage and somebody did. So they say this white hat, gray hat, black hat, where to fuck?

I don't give a shit what it is. It's an individual that stole 4,000 Bitcoin, returned 3,600, kept 400 to themselves. That's quite a quite a lot of Bitcoin they're keeping. Could have been zero, but you know what? And so what I found very interesting through this whole thing, too, is the exchanges of messages when they stole the Bitcoin. In offer turn. Yes. So good.

What an interesting way because you are verifying that the person. That's right. Right. So it's not like somebody can intercept that. I mean, they would have to have the keys and all that. but the likelihood of that is very is minuscule. So you are dealing with, you're sending messages to back and forth and there's confirmation.

Yeah, they got it. And there's, yeah, that's confirmation they received. Sorry, they replied to it. So I find it to be very interesting.

But in the end, more than anything. And I, you know, I've talked negatively of liquid in the past. It's an IOU. Right? It's,

it's something else. It may be one to one. It may be backed by all these people, including Bull Bitcoin, which is a federated member that. It's not, it's not, it's not,

to be anything but a quick spend wallet. Like that's what lightning, the reason bull Bitcoin, I think, the reason Bull Bitcoin embraced Lightning is because it's easy to do DCAs. A liquid Bitcoin, not Lightning. Sorry, yeah, Liquid Bitcoin, I should say. And they embrace Lightning, too, by the way. Well, the reason they embrace liquid is because it's easy to do DCAs and the BullWat lets you, by default, do what they call an internal transfer from your liquid wallet to

your secure Bitcoin wallet. and then, oh, if that's what you want to do, something cold storage or something, you know, deeper than either one of the liquid hot wallet or Bitcoin hot wallet. But man, I got to think that, so a couple things here. And maybe we could start here since you did mention it there. What color hat is this guy wearing, in your opinion? He didn't give back all the Bitcoin. He kept 60 Bitcoin, I think, about 15%. I said on Bitcast just now, and I see Nathan in the chat.

but like those guys were on the side of maybe he's a gray hat. I think 15% is reasonable, honestly. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I think that's reasonable. Now, you can tell me that it's still theft. I would maybe agree with you there. But it could have been, like we said, a third of a billion dollars. They were using to basically peg what they had on LBT.

So that's number one. Number two, what kind of, what kind of response from the community should Adam back get? Given that we just basically nuked from orbit and VK. Both double the size in terms of the size of the hack. And you have to wonder now, you know, Adam's been around a long time. What kind of goodwill does he have left to defend from what, you know, by volume, should be a pretty significant negative response from the community?

where do you come down on that? He should be viewed the same he was viewed last week with, like he's just a guy out there. His views take it for what it's worth. If it's garbage views, you just shit it out. Is that the same way you felt about MVP,

feel about MVP? Yeah, the same thing. Nothing has changed my opinion about any of those people. I'll be honest, like I don't have these heroes that a lot of other people do

than they talk about and they listen to and they follow. I don't even, I never followed NBC. He was on my meal list, I believe before all this took place. And he might be a immune list. I'm not exactly sure because I haven't seen him tweet in a very long time on my timeline.

So I might have muted him. So that's just an indication where I hold these people. If somebody has a good opinion, I'll be happy to listen to it. I don't care who it's from. I want to listen to the message. I don't, you know, just because somebody has a long history, I get it. But I don't want to give them just a benefit of the doubt just because of the history. I want to listen to what's being said.

And that's the way I treat everything these days So like what Adam Back says He's just a gibrony out there And you know a lot of people say Oh you're a fucking idiot for calling him that But you know what? Like I'm not a big fan of liquid He's in the white paper

I'm not a big fan of the block stream jade The fact that they use the blind oracle You know there's a lot of things out there That I'm just not impressed with And also isn't he tied to January 3rd movement too? Or am I wrong? Is there any connection between it between the I think he has him and Samson yeah

Oh, I lost your joy. Oh, did you? Yeah, go ahead. What do you mean? Can you hear me? Yeah. Yeah. There is a connection between him and Samson for sure.

Yeah, I don't know. I hear what you're saying. And I think that's probably the sort of common refrain, the common view on him. But, man, like, you know, so now what do you really have here, right? You have a guy who runs the Liquid Federation. You have a guy who runs a hardware wallet, too. Like, is that hardware wallet going to be subjected to scrutiny? I don't know.

Are they going to publish code around it? Is it already open source? I couldn't even tell you, honestly. You're talking about the jade? The jade, yeah, the jade. It's certainly open source. Yeah. So, so like, you know, are people going to stop using the jade because this guy found a hole in

liquid? I don't know. There's no connection between the two of them. I agree with you there. I agree with you. But that's not always what the community cares about. You know, the reality is not always what, what rises to the top. Here's another question for you.

When you think about lightning and quickspend wallets like liquid would have been, will you continue to, not that you were ever recommending using it long term for sure. But are you going to recommend to like the bull guys that they drop liquid after this? You know, it would be wonderful. I mean, I'm just speaking as a just a regular Joe blow out there. Yeah. I mean, why not? It's a, at the very best, it's an alt coin. The very best, that's what it is.

You can even say what it truly is. What I prefer to use for quickspends is something like lightning, because in the end, lightning is still Bitcoin. You're not transferring Bitcoin to something else. You're keeping it within the Bitcoin ecosystem. And one thing I didn't make note of, I should have, is that Liquid had, 4,200 Bitcoin on their network. I'm not sure exactly how much that equated to everybody buying into it, like just buying a

little bit of Bitcoin or buying a little bit of liquid here and there, and eventually equated to 4200 Bitcoin. But that is more than the entire Lightning Network, which has slightly less than 4,000. They're close to each other, but still, there's more Bitcoin on liquid than there is on Lightning, which I found to be astonishing. Why? So more people either. Lightning is, I think, in a perfect world, it's not easier.

It's definitely not easier for the people using it. In a perfect world, it is easier, but you have total control over it. Yeah, it's custodial, yeah, or self-custodial. Well, you could get, I mean, Wallace Satoshi in the past was not. You had them control it. And I know they changed their system now that you have control. But if you run your own Lightning node, you have total control over everything. And you still get a lot of the benefits of privacy

with lightning that people tout with liquid. And so you could debate which is going to be, which is more private, that's fine. But so if you look at the properties between lightning and liquid, man, lightning, I just like the fact that I could hold onto my Bitcoin. I am such a like a maxi for holding on to my keys.

Now, especially after the last month, right? It's even probably more intense. I have, but this has been since what happened in Ottawa a few years back when what they happened to the truckers. Since then, my point of view has changed with dealing with holding on to my financial future. And there's also one other thing that I'm going to point out.

Hit me. And you can see what you want. But if you are, if there's ever an audit done and you are somehow using liquid and Bitcoin, you're exchanging it to you from one or back and forth, theoretically, it's still a taxable event. theoretically. You're exchanging Bitcoin for something not named Bitcoin. Now, you could make the argument, it's private

and blah, blah, blah. I get that. But if ever, like, your feet are held to the fire and your first, like, I wouldn't want to be in that situation. With lightning, you don't have that same problem because you're still within lightning. So within Bitcoin.

You're just opening a channel, moving it to an address, a Bitcoin address and opening a channel. It's still, you're not exchanging Bitcoin. to something else but with liquid you are so that's something i'm not sure if it's going to deter anybody probably or the jury maybe less than point zeroes or one percent but it's just something else to consider with all this i look at it and just you know i don't like i'll use i want to have total control over or everything and with liquid i don't have that i can't disagree lent honestly um this is a good example of why i think most people

short of people who are using Bitcoin daily for transactions. So obviously, I would just finish talking to Ben over on BitKast and he's a guy who uses this a lot, right? He lives on a Bitcoin standard. He's going to continue to use liquid. I get it. You know, if a hack of this nature, you know, freezes up 100 to 200 bucks, chances are I don't want to like, you know, say everyone is okay with losing 100 or 200 bucks

for a short time, but chances are you're okay with doing that. And so that's something to keep in mind, too, that there's a number of different sort of thresholds that people are hitting on liquid that maybe they need to reconsider. But longer term, I'll speak specifically about something like the Bull Bitcoin DCA. The Bull Bitcoin DCA, you know, is allowed to run at sub, you know, 0.001, I think is the minimum for an on-chain buy. It's allowed to run sub that because liquid allows for this quote unquote IOU system, right? I know that's not meant to be derogatory or inflammatory, but I think some people would view it that way. There's a cost to that. And the cost is you are relying on Adam and his team over at Blockstream to maintain that codebase

and be specific about the problems and protect you from this issue where the peg Bitcoin right, that 3,400 Bitcoin out of 4200 is basically available for what did you say a month, something like that? Yeah, August 3rd until yesterday. That's a problem. That's a problem. And I don't think a lot of people are talking about this. I've seen it a few times.

But, you know, in my opinion, that's really the unforgivable sin is that you knew and didn't make a move to do proper maintenance on the code base. And I think a lot of people are saying that this guy's, you know, or this team or this group or whatever that's the Bitcoin. They're not white hat because they didn't responsibly disclose. Did Adam responsibly disclose? I don't think so. How can you, how can you view that as responsible disclosure? You put that thing on GitHub as a, as a, you know, PR and what? You just hope no one looks at it. No one sees it. No one uses these models. That was after the cold card hack, by the way. After the cold card hack, after the cold card hack. They put that on the internet people to see. That's retarded.

It's fucking retarded. That guy's an OG cypherpunk. He's in the white paper, for God's sake. And now you're telling me that this is a mistake he made. I think the fucking fires of hell should rain down on this guy from the plebs. I doubt that they will, but they ought to. And VK got it pretty good. I would say this is almost worse.

You know, you didn't learn your lesson from Cold Card not a week before this, before that first GitHub post, right? It's tough. That is a tough. If you're fucking stuck right now because your money was on liquid, that is a tough pill to swallow. And I think the saving grace may be that no one, no one individual has a big story to share about having their funds frozen on liquid. Everyone's 500,000 bucks, whatever, max, right? That might be the saving grace for Adam in this case.

We'll see. We'll see. Yeah, the exposure was just limited by a bunch of people. But over enough, like I'm not sure how many they captured in terms of. of users on it. It seems like quite a bit to get 4,200 Bitcoin on their network. And probably not all that is from users. Probably they put a bunch of themselves.

The Federation underpins the network liquidity, right? And so, yeah, part of that is them. But still, you know, it's a lot of money, man. A lot of money. Yeah. And so to go back, I just want to point once again what the group consists of, the Liquid Federation. And it's 80 Bitcoin aligned businesses, including exchanges.

infrastructure companies and asset managers. In the past, I've said this almost verbatim. If Vitalik released something similar and used similar entities for some sort of wrapped Bitcoin, we would call it a shit coin and we'd make fun of him. Yeah. I said this before. There's no doubt. There's no doubt.

And yeah, just look at it. I don't, but it's not. I don't care who's of all. Yeah, I don't have control. I like liquid. I like liquid. I used it for my DCA for a long time. I don't have a daily cost average program running at the moment.

But if and when I put one back on or in the past when I had one running, you know, if I wanted to buy five bucks a day, 10 bucks a day, I had no choice but to use this unless I wanted to go to shake pay or something, which I didn't want to do. So lightning is an option. For a DCA program, how are you going to DCA with lightning? What is the plan? What exchange will let you DCA

What's the minimum private from Bull with lightning? It's 0.001. It's about 100 bucks, maybe more than 100 bucks on chain. That's lightning. That's lightning. It's far less with lightning. Okay, but I'm saying on Bull.

Can you buy lightning on Bull DCA? I haven't done it, but I believe. We got to pull it up. Let's pull it up. Let's call these guys. Let's see. I'm going to log in right now. I'm not sure you guys are logging info, but. Because when I make a Bitcoin bite asses.

Buy Bitcoin. It asks me to want to do it on chain, lightning, or schedule. Recurring by every day. I just call it 5CAD every day, sure. Lightning Network. Yeah, you do have lightning network here. I don't know what the minimum is. But the minimum requires compatible wallet minimum 0.25 BTC.

Liquid, the minimum is 0.000002. Wait, wait, wait. 0.25 BTC. You're talking 20,000-ish. I mean, I'm looking at it. I'll post the fucking thing here. Tell me if I'm misinterpreting this, but. It's a hell of a buy.

No shit. But that's what, like, that's what the, you know, that's why Lakewood was so valuable, right? Yeah, I don't know. You got to expand that. I just make it bigger. It's tiny. Hold on.

Let's see. Am I crazy? No, it does say. 0.2. So I don't know if that's a typo or not. That's got to be, right? Maximum. Maximum 0.25. Oh, okay. So the minimum's got to be fuck all.

This show's hosted by retards. Anyway, so yeah. There's value to these things that allow for smaller transactions. And, you know, I was speaking from experience. Obviously, I mentioned my own sort of programming here. But my brother, same thing. My brother was using bull for his DCA and was using liquid. And so longer term, like, is this going to bounce back?

think probably. People want those smaller transactions available to them. The lesson here in terms of custody, Len mentioned it as well. Lightning nodes and all that stuff allow you to control the Bitcoin on LN better than they do on LBT. But the bigger lesson here is that you have to think about what your threshold is for deeper cold storage custody. It cannot be $1,000. You can't have $1,000 on LVTC. Cap it at 100, 200, 300, whatever. you know, whatever, or like every month move it out or every six months move it out. You have to have a plan for that because otherwise what happens is you wind up just holding this Bitcoin in 20 different places, right?

You got some on ShakePay, some on Bull, some on your liquid, some on your lightning. Put it in a place where you understand how to control the keys, the keys and the hardware should never be at your house. If you talk about all the time, but you got to have a plan for this stuff. And I think that most people, you know, the fix for this is not necessarily increasing your technical competence or complicating your setup. It is having a plan. You need a plan.

And I don't think a lot of people have one. It's really as simple as that in a lot of ways in Bitcoin. And this is a good example, in my opinion. Yeah, this landscape is ever evolving and it's maturing, especially with AI now in the game where a lot of people now have the ability to buy an agent to look at code and to examine deceiveers issues. You don't have to have a lot of technical skills. just have to have the time, the ability, the willingness, and a little bit of money, or maybe a lot of money.

I'm not sure exactly how much it costs. You can probably give a better idea how much it costs to really look into the stuff than I can. It wouldn't be that much, honestly. If you token maxed like a weekend of coding, I don't know, a couple hundred bucks, probably. That's cheap. That's very cheap. Yeah. The hardest thing is getting the model to look at it, not getting the model to find problems.

That's the big gap, right? You mean, you've got to first identify yourself what to look at, what to examine and then point it at it. You got to tell it your pronouns or whatever if you're using Chow Chepit or Claude. But if you're using one of the Chinese models, like you could really fucking run roughshot over these guys, I think. Yeah, as long as you don't say anything wrong about the CCP. Yeah. Yeah, you'll be happy to give you whatever information you want. Joey, are you a, are you a shoe maxi?

I mean, do you look at shoes and you say this is something? that is going to consume them? Do you know how many fucking pairs of shoes I have? But do you buy them for investment purposes or for consuming purposes? I buy them for different applications. I got these guys a little while ago. My running shoes.

And I have about a thousand. My wife, God bless her, great woman. But she hates how many pairs of shoes I have. I don't invest. But I buy I buy them for like, I try and find good prices on shoes that I've liked for a long time. Like, I mean, I'm like a year or two after they release. So I'm pretty good at that.

My big issue is that I buy a pair of shoes and then I only wear it like 10 times. And then it just kind of sits in the closet for a while until they become grass catting shoes. I mean, cut the grass. Yeah. Something like that. Once you cut the grass is like that. Don't get me started on boots. If you guys want to get into expensive habit, it's basically two choices.

cocaine or Goodyear Welted boots. And I'm not sure which one is more expensive once you really get deep. I would guess maybe the powder by a hair, by a hair, but I think the boots are expensive too. Be careful out there. A lot of people are talking about Nike and the misfortune or the bad fortunes they're having lately.

And I know this is a Bitcoin segment of the show. I put in the chat there if you want to pull up the link on that and just put it on. Because the reason being is strategy. decide. We do. Hey, you know what? Like, you know,

this is how strategy is. This has been around for a while. This is not new. Oh, has, I didn't know. I finally landed on my doorstep,

at least not the shoe itself, is that now there's the new strategy Air Jordans that you're able to buy out there. And there was the price, like 250-ish, something like that? Yeah, 250 US.

That's a standard, you know, like a hard-defined color away for, these are Air Force ones, not Air Jordans, I don't think. Oh, maybe they are, they are AJ ones. Yeah, they are AG ones. You're right. So, you know, in the past we talked about people wearing their ledger gear with their shit, you know, their ledger attached to their hat and stuff like that. In cells now could miss, could now.

What is the? Oh, here's the, uh, okay. Show off that here. You got a maximalist. And you're going to get the strategy. Air Jordan shoes. Pick them up if you want. What a fucking joke.

These are not a very, they're not a very, they're not. a very versatile colorway, the orange and black, hard to wear. If you're going to buy, I'll make a suggestion here, if you're going to buy a pair of Nikes that are orange and black, you know, ostensibly Halloween colorway, the All Hallows Eve, I'm going to try and find it now. All Hallows Eve. Vintage Baltimore Orioles. No, the Nike Blazers. The Nike Blazers, All Hallows Eve, are like a nice pair of shoes. These are a collab with off-white, a brand you may know if you're listening and watching.

There's zero chance Len knows it. Zero. But yeah, zero chance Len knows it. But there is a chance that you know it if you're listening and watching. Let me just pull it up here. This is obviously the left of beaten path from the Bitcoin stuff. But I have liked these pairs of shoes, this pair of shoes for a long time. I don't have a set, obviously, but I would love at some point to get one.

I think these are really, really nice. What's the brand? Nike. They're Nike's. These are Nike's. Yeah, nice pair of shoes there. And they have the Beaverton, Oregon, whatever, you know, labeling. I saw these once at Nike Lab in London when I went to London years ago.

And I haven't seen them since in person. I've seen them online a few times and maybe a handful of times like on YouTube. But they're pretty hard to come by now. Yeah. Have you seen anybody wearing the strategy? strategy? I mean, on YouTube, sure, or on Twitter, sure, all these guys who go to the the on conference.

Could be AI. No, I think, I mean, Sailor wears them, I think, in a couple of conferences a year. Guys like Cotsman, Walton might have a pair. I'm not sure. Our guy, our guy, Ben, doesn't have a pair, I don't think. But there's a few other people, I'm sure, in the space who, I mean, it's $250. If you wanted to buy that or share strategy, you know, which one is going to age better? I don't know.

Yeah. Well, it's actually probably got a lot. couple of shares, I think. Isn't the price given, it's around... Is it around 190? I don't know what it is. About 115, 120th? Last day, so I could... I'm not sure. Because we're talking about these Bitcoin treasury companies. We could talk about Metaplanet and the bullshit that's going on over there.

And that's a company's getting a lot of backlash. And rightfully so. I'm going to try to find this feat while you're talking here. And we've got to do a quick recap of what's going on with Metaplanet. Because back in April 24, they decided that they were hospitality in hotels at that time. And they decided what the hell has become a Bitcoin Treasury company. And they started aggressively accumulating Bitcoin. And now they have around 43,000 Bitcoin, at least they had it as of the middle of this year.

And how did they get all this Bitcoin? You needed money to do that. And they simply diluted. Their shares, their outstanding shares went from around 154 million, not too long ago. now it's $1.3 billion. So that's quite a bit, almost a 10x. And their goal they said is to increase the Bitcoin per share over time. I'm going to fucking love that.

Bitcoin for sure metric. And through it all, there was compensation and incentives that are given to executives and key personnel. Not uncommon. This happens all over this type of all over Wall Street. And they had some very favorable terms, including the exercise. That is the understatement of the year, very favorable terms. isn't.

Oh boy. Oh, boy. Very fair. They were able to exercise at the price of 10 yen per share. And which is nice, a nice bonus, right? This included an adjustment provision, meaning that the number of underlying shares that were designated were equally roughly to 20% of the company's fully diluted shares. So reading between the lines, as they dilute, they get adjusted the shares that they're able

to accumulate to the exact. and that does not get diluted. So they were able to issue new shares to buy new Bitcoin. The people that were impacted were investors, new investors and old investors. The people on the insides, they made like fucking bank robbers. This is borderline criminal, if you ask me, but this is Wall Street. This is what's done over there. There's a lot of backlash.

Metaplanet came out and they said they adjusted how things will work. They are now going to impose a five-year lockup on shares. previously was much lower. I think it was two years. So they're making that much, much longer. They're also limiting exemptions to getting, to exercising the options like death or certain company requesting lending, shit like that.

But the thing is they're not reducing or canceling the already existing legacy size expansion that they're going to still make bank. So you've got to look at the CEO Simon Jerovich. Gerevich, okay. And personal holdings of his shares, was 15.5 million. Now it's around 80 million.

They diluted. Is that a lot? I'm not sure if that's a lot or not. Hey, well, just by looking at the numbers, it looks pretty damn good. And these new shares,

one thing that's a bonus, though, they're subjected to the five-year lockup, right? And so he came to Twitter. He thanked shareholders for their passion and belief in meta planets.

And he said that he acknowledged the company, quote, has not done a good enough job of explaining how our structure and decisions are designed to create long-term value for shareholders. And they say going forward, they should expect to hear more from them and the decisions they'll make that will shape the future of the company.

The optics are horrendous. The communication breakdown is there and investors are feeling the brunt of it. It's too bad. So sad. It comes off. Not very long ago we talked about the insider bullshit that you can get if you buy shares and like meta planet's turning up to me a real fucking joke in so many ways unless you're an insider unless you're an executive guy and you're you're

you know CEO or one of the people like that then you're all right but if you're just joe blow on making trades trying to buy in you're an investor long term man I don't know do what you want I don't give a shit but I'm not touching this who are the people who are still buying this stock if you look at the trades being done somebody's buying it it's not like it's zero volume. Somebody's buying it. It's not zero volume, but, you know, if you look at the people buying the stock, I think you can look, if you want to have an idea of the profile of the buyer, look at the

people that they've brought on, right? And, you know, this is not uncommon in Bitcoin treasury companies outside, excuse me, of MSTR. It's people who are like Twitter famous, Dylan LeClair and others. David Bailey joined the board of a public trade company. They had Natalie Brunel joined the board of a public trade company. these people are targeting sort of low resolution retail in a way that I think is obvious now. It should have been obvious since the beginning.

You and me have talked about it for years at this point, that anyone not named MSTR was going to be in trouble trying to execute this strategy because at the end of the day, they're just second best, you know, in terms of the equity price. I am shocked to see the generous terms these guys have given themselves for basically lining their pockets, feathering their nest. This sounds crazy to me. This is going to be allowed. But the company is Japanese. If there's different rules over there, then maybe that's something to consider. I don't know how anybody looks at this stock now. And it's like, yeah, this is a buy.

It's a hold. It's a whatever. You got to be nuts. You got to be nuts. Or you got to really love like Leclair, Garevich, whoever else is involved in this. Don't forget this company. You said it was a hotel company. Lina had one hotel.

One. There was no, there was no empire. There was no, you know, uh, um, there was no like, there was no like growth. There was no additional, uh, assets. Anything. This isn't a Marriott, really. No, not even close, man. So these guys like, like, how much, how much conviction?

the Simon Gerevich have on the Bitcoin trade. You know, what is the amount? I don't know either. And it's impossible to put it on a continuum because we don't obviously read minds. But shit, it's hard for me to, it's hard for me to imagine that it's that, you know. You can.

The fact that it's scaling his holdings based on how much is being diluted. Huff. That to me just shows you. His conviction is rather low because he's more concerned about maintaining a certain percentage of ownership of the company. rather than anything else.

If that's the case, you know, I'm, it's hard, it's hard to argue with that, but there, there's going to be people online. Like,

if I go to the replies of this tweet, um, man, it's, it's a lot of people saying, thanks for posting. We're looking forward to seeing what comes next. Like,

it's just all fucking bag holders, you know? And I, I sympathize with the sort of like damage you've probably done to your portfolio by not investing in spot, number one. But even like, you know,

what is MSTR up in the last two or three weeks? 30%, 40%, like it's a huge number. All them are up quite a bit in the past. You know, like, and so like, why would you want to be in the worst one is the question? It's the highest multiplier that somebody would probably argue. Yeah, that's what the hope is. That's been the past, you know, past performance, not indicative of future performance. That's, you know, table stakes.

That's a boilerplate disclaimer on every, every equity, every stock, every whatever. It's all IOUs in the end. So, yeah, we talked about it in the beginning of show. if you want it to play that game and hopefully you're going to be made whole at the end. If it's not, you know, whatever. Treasurer. Talk about them and more Shipmunk problems.

My treasers around here somewhere. My mess of new hardware wallets. Anyway, yeah, yeah, tough one for them again. Oh, yeah. Remember, we disclosed that their third party shipment company, Shipmunk. They were impacted by data breach. It looks like that data breach is a little bit larger

than it initially anticipated. It was, initial numbers were around almost 12,000 people in total had their information leak. And it included not entirely, but some of the people had their names, email, phone number, shipping addresses. That was for a lot of people of the almost 12,000. Well, 12,000 seems pretty high, but you know what? Let's just add another 67,000 to that list. Those are for customers based in the U.S. who ordered between November 19, 2019 and August, 2021. So we're going back a few years that they're now discovering this stuff. Why it's being

disclosed now? Seems rather suspicious to me, but you know, it is what it is. So they're saying in this one is brutal because this includes the name, email, phone number, shipping addresses, order numbers, all exposed. And if you're an impacted customer, you have probably been already emailed. If you have not yet been emailed, you're likely not on the list and you're one of the lucky ones. Now, keep in mind, these are for customers in the U.S. that made the buys between that almost two-year span. And so it's too bad for them. Now they're going to be subjected to a lot of phishing emails and potentially a wrench attack. Who the hell knows? But this is the game you play when you provide information that's associated with a wallet

or a signing device. Yeah. I feel bad for these guys. I'll note that I think, I don't want to say for sure, because I don't know. But what is the rationale for these guys releasing this leak years after it happened? It's got to be, in my opinion, not to like glaze Treasor. I don't have any affiliation with them. Obviously, we're not sponsored by Treasor. I paid for the unit that I got from them. You got to think Treasor is being proactive here a little bit, right? Like, make sure there was no other problems. If there was problems, tell us about them now. And Treasor is the only company at the moment talking about starting an anonymous shipping service. So again, when it comes to hardware, a couple things you have to consider now. One, does your provider have access to

frontier models, right? AI models. Number two, what is their security budget? You know, can they can they really red team their own stuff consistently? We're talking like 24-7 here or close at this point. And maybe now number three, can they spin up a logistics network to match the demand for their hardware. Seems to me only Trezor and Ledger can do that for the moment. I'll answer a question from the chat here because I have a bunch of these hardware while sitting around. If I look behind my monitor here, I got a Bickey, a Ledger, something.

I don't know which one that is. It's not the stacks. The Bitbox, the Trezor safe Bitcoin one. And there's another one there. Oh, the password. The Foundation Passport. Core Prime. They're all good, honestly.

And it's like waking up from a fever dream where for five years, six years, I never thought about my hardware set up until the cold card thing. There's also half a dozen cold cards sitting here that I've been fucking around with for the last five years. What makes it good in your opinion? Give me some of the things that you like

and give me a checkboxes that. See, so for me, and we'll probably have some disagreement here, but that's okay. I know, I'm not going to get into my, what I like. You know, we can. We can. There's value.

in debating some of these things. And I think that you are further down the continuum of like hardcore self-custy than I am, at least for the moment. A couple things I care more about now than I did in the past. My wife has to be able to look at a hardware device and understand how it works right away. It's got to be intuitive. That is like near the top of the list for me now. Some of these are good at that. Some of these are not.

I won't tell you what I'm using for my hardware lockup for the moment. but I will say that it hasn't changed as much as you might think since the cold card hack. Maybe that's where I'll leave it. That's number one. Number two now for me is I need some kind of assurance that the interface is easy to use. I love Sparrow personally and I still use Sparrow, but I want my wife or eventually my daughter or my neighbor. in a real jam to be able to look at a piece of hardware and be able to like, you know, get an app or download something on their Mac or their PC and have access to the Bitcoin

in a fairly, you know, I guess friction-free way. Now, this is all fun and good for most people. And, you know, I might talk about the hardware wallets maybe on like a stream at some point after hours. But I think, Len, still for me, the biggest thing is protection of the corn from like an invader, attacker, or whatever. And so to be honest with you, none of these fit the bill. They just don't fit the bill. It's got to be out of the house, number one.

And number two, it's got to be difficult to access in the event there's a problem. And I just had this on Ben Show, but I'll repeat it here. you have basically a couple of factors in terms of protecting your Bitcoin that you have to consider. And I think for me, the big one is if there was ever something gone awry at your house and someone could see from the front of your house as something was different or there was signs of distress, how long would it take for a neighbor to call the police? Which is the same question as how long would you have to maintain your defensive posture at home from an armed invader? to keep your Bitcoin safe.

For me, the answer is that it wouldn't matter. You can't get to Bitcoin. I hope to keep my fingers and toes in that situation. But also, there's a second factor, which is if, like, we had a cold card hack a little while ago, how hard is it once you get the hardware together, once you get the keys together, whatever, for someone who's not necessarily experienced in the ecosystem to move your coins. You know, without going to detail, I had a couple of friends over on Friday, and one of them is the CBP. They're both CBP listeners, but one of them had, you know, an issue during the cold card thing because this person was on a cold card and their spouse was the only one who had access to the hardware during the event. And it was a bit of an issue. I would have gone to do it myself had I not been, you know, stuck with my little one babysitting.

My wife was at the cottage, right? these are problems you don't want to run into. And hardware, I think, is going that direction more than ever has before. I will give one nod of approval, though, above all the other devices to one. And it is the foundation passport. And the reason I give that nod is because this is really a device that can be part of a sovereignty stack. We're talking file storage. We're talking key generation.

They're working on air gap and dice rolls now, which is a first for these guys. they've obviously listened to some of the issues with the cold card and what people want from a hardware device that they were using cold card for that maybe there's not another option on the market for at the moment. And also, Len, in the era of AI, it seems like now if you are a competent coder or feel like you're a competent coder, they'll let you make your own apps for the device. So if you want to put something on there that's not on there, maybe something that stores a passport ID or something like that, you can do it. That's important stuff, man. Like we preach a lot on this show both sovereignty and agility and all that. And the Bickey, easy to use. Super easy. Like I set it up in five minutes, received and sent Bitcoin,

five minutes piece of cake, right? You can actually on that, set up another person who will then be your benefactor or something happens to you. It's relatively easy. They get a text message and they have to download an app

and do something on their phone. How do they get the text message? Where is that information stored? Like you said, you have to give Big He the phone number. Yeah, you got to give the phone number to the person of the person. Yeah, I mean, there's tradeoffs, right? There's always tradeoffs. And I think a lot of people now are starting to think about how many of these am I willing to make?

Yeah, I mean, I could talk forever about this stuff. And maybe at some point I will just shoot the shit with the chat or something like that. We can go back and forth and I'll answer any questions. But there's a lot of good standout devices now that just, I think, Maybe we're alone in this, and I think maybe a lot of the Canadian content guys are alone in this. We loved the cold card hardware. Love the cold card ethos and really like swore by it. But a lot of people now are thinking, what have I missed?

What have I not seen over the last of all? You know what I haven't tried yet is the Frost Box or Frost Snap, I think, with like it's multi-sig, multiple devices you get in the mail. Looks crazy. It looks a lot, like a lot of fun. I'm not familiar with that at all. Yeah, it looks pretty cool. Then the other one I haven't tried is the Seed Siner. So I might try both of those over the winter and maybe, I don't know, I'm not going to do a video.

I don't do video production anymore, but interesting. I have in Raspberry Pi, I could give you if you want to try out through the Seed Siner. I have a few here extra. Don't you need their hardware list has like cameras, some other stuff on there that make the Seed Siner kind of kind of go. You could probably strip it down, but I think their hardware, this is what they recommend if you're going to build one on your own, right? Well, yeah, I believe one of the criteria, haven't looked in it for some time was a Raspberry Pi Zero W or something like that. I have Raspberry Pi Zero. I want to see if it meets whatever criteria they have. And so I have, and that was just doing nothing here. I was using as a pie hole for some time, but I basically shut that down. So really, if you need one, I could just lend it to you. You want to give a shot or you keep it. I don't give a shit because I don't even need the fucking thing.

So, yeah, save you at least seven bucks. Those things are cheap as hell. Appreciate that. Awful, do you. Yeah, that's great. Hey, yeah, there you go. See, like, I'm willing to donate to the cause, right? Actually, I'm trying to start to declutter a little bit of time. It's just for the inevitable. There's some other ones here. Paulie in the chat saying you need a pie zero, too. Like, there's a bunch of these things that have kind of popped up over the last few weeks

since the cold card had. Yeah, no Wi-Fi version. Yeah, because people have been saying, that like everyone wanted to talk cold card. I wasn't allowed to say what I'm using or what I like or whatever. And now there's kind of a power vacuum, right, a little bit. So, yeah. I still think that there's, you know, whatever.

If you have a cold card, like Mark 3, Mark 4, Mark 5, Q, and you roll dice, like, still pretty fucking good, those devices, you know. A lot of optionality there for the power user, which just, it just doesn't exist. these other ones. I've looked on stuff like the ledger, for example, which has a lot of good features, but it's still missing some of the harder hitting stuff.

Something as simple as the rest pins, for example. You know, like, it's not there. It's so bad for it. They make on it. Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. That information that people know about it, people if they want it, they'll make it a reality. And just really quick, because we're running up against the clock here, over 50

Bitcoin has been rescued from this cult card entropy crisis. And this has been posted on the Reddit CA subreddit. Bitcoin C. The Bitcoin, Bitcoin C subreddit. The Reddit CIA. The Reddit Canada subreddit. Is there a Reddit CA?

Probably. Check that out. So yeah, the Bitcoin CA subreddit. And the Dart and independent White Hat researchers, they've secured over 50 Bitcoin from addresses that were exposed during this incident. And they were able to recover it. And so yeah, so that's good news. And so some people have been positively impacted on this by this thing because there's

been white hats out there doing their thing. And it looks like they're not going to keep anything like this gray hat earlier that we talked about in liquid. There's no 36, what's the number? Sorry, 400 Bitcoin that they're keeping from this. It's good to see that this is being done. And this might be one of the last things we're going to hear on this cold card thing for some time.

Yeah. This thing is just turning colder and colder by the day. So, Joy, I think that's it because now it's an hour in. Let's get going. We got the back half here. A lot of clown world stuff to discuss. If you're on video, audio with us, like the video number one. If you're on Twitter, all you guys love listening on Twitter, come to YouTube, get in the chat, leave a like, subscribe to the channel.

It's the least you can do. I use the obsession girl and the thumbnail to try and lure people to the video. Okay. I think it's good. Girl. It's good, Donnell. The Obsession Girls, the obsession movie is fucking awesome. I haven't seen yet. No, I haven't. Come visit with us on YouTube.

We're going to be back with the back half tomorrow if you're listening on the podcast feed. And until we see you again, friends, take care of yourselves. And hold on to your Bitcoin.