The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - The CBP - Praveen Perera, the REAL Bitcoin Maxi

Episode Date: February 8, 2024

FRIENDS AND ENEMIES This week, we are welcoming on the show Praveen Perera. Praveen is a software developer who is also the quintessential bitcoin maxi. He has been in the space for several years and is extremely opinionated on several topics. The mere mention of Ordinals to him will churn up anger and rage that will make you think twice about talking about it again. If you wish to follow Praveen on Twitter/X, you can find him at: Praveen Perera (@PraveenPerera) / X (twitter.com) #bitcoin #inscriptions #realestate From a couple of Canucks who like to talk about how Bitcoin will impact Canada. As always, none of the info is financial advice. Website: ⁠www.CanadianBitcoiners.com⁠ Discord: https://discord.gg/Zz9sEEPQ A part of the CBP Media Network: ⁠www.twitter.com/CBPMediaNetwork This show is sponsored by: easyDNS - ⁠⁠⁠https://easydns.com/⁠⁠⁠ EasyDNS is the best spot for Anycast DNS, domain name registrations, web and email services. They are fast, reliable and privacy focused. You can even pay for your services with Bitcoin! Apply coupon code 'CBPMEDIA' for 50% off initial purchase Bull Bitcoin - ⁠⁠⁠https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/cbp⁠⁠⁠ The CBP recommends Bull Bitcoin for all your BTC needs. With their new kyc-free options, there's never been a quicker, simpler, more private and (most importantly) cheaper way to acquire private Bitcoin. Use the link above for $20 bones, and take advantage of all Bull Bitcoin has to offer.

The Canadian Bitcoiners podcast is just two guys and maybe a guest or two discussing Bitcoin, Bitcoin equities, and the related macroeconomic space. It's not meant to be financial advice, so please, if you're doing any investing, after listening to our program, do your own research, do your own due diligence, and understand that any money you invest can be lost. The show is meant for entertainment purposes only, and we hope you enjoy the program. Friends and enemies, welcome to yet another edition of the Mighty CBP, all part of the CBP Media Network. And today you're in for a treat because I got Praveen Praveera coming on the show. Praveen is just a ball of energy. He's dynamite. He's going to hopefully talk about a lot of topics that will hopefully enlighten you and entertain you at the same time. But before I bring him in,

there's a couple of things I want to talk about, which are our two sponsors. And so sponsor number one, and it's a sponsor that you've been with us for the longest time, I think. I think they have the record in terms of sponsoring our show. And it's Easy DNS.'s been with us for the longest time, I think. I think they have the record in terms of sponsoring our show. And it's EasyDNS. Marketed team, want to thank them very much for sponsoring our show. So EasyDNS, I can't talk enough about them. They've done so much for us in terms of getting our domain set up, our website set up, CanadianBitcoiners.com.

Check it out if you haven't already done so. Domain purchases. They got you covered. You could do renewals with them. It's in a name. You know, it's easy DNS because they also have DNS hosting, but web hosting, email hosting. So if you don't want to use Google as hosting your email, you could use them and you could have total control over your email and also your web hosting. You're not going to trust some other one, other non-private enterprise. You're going to trust EasyDNS because they offer you service

with protection in mind, right? Like, for example, there's phishing. Phishing is big these days, right? EasyDNS, what do they do? Well, they offer protection to you through the domain share. This enables them to detect those real-time or near real-time phishing attacks or phishing attempts that people may have in the wild. And they can even provide takedown assistance just to put the nail into the coffin for those lookalike domains out there that are targeting your website and

taking away some of your business. So you're in good hands when you sign up with EasyDNS. And not only that, remember, they're one of the oldest and most established providers in this space. A lot of them come and go. They're gone now. Why? Because they don't provide the service that EasyDNS does. Reliable with no downtime. So if you're going to sign up with them, we recommend it.

Use our referral code CBPMEDIA. If you do, you get 50% off your initial purchase. That's number one sponsor. Number two sponsor. Well, we have Bull Bitcoin. What can I say about Bull Bitcoin except that it's the only place I buy my Bitcoin, Joey, as well. And we buy it for our business as well,

the CBP account. So we're stacking on the corporate side using Bull Bitcoin. But not only could you buy Bitcoin, you could sell your Bitcoin. You have the option if you do want to sell your Bitcoin with price of Bitcoin went up today,

I think it was around 44K last I heard. So there may be an opportunity out there for people to sell and bull has you covered if you want to sell it. You can get it on chain, you get lightning. So if fees are high, which they are not right now, you could still use lightning to buy your Bitcoin. You could use your Bitcoin with bull Bitcoin to pay your bills. So if you have hydro bill, you have to pay if you have anything, well, you could use your Bitcoin with their service to pay your bills. Also, you could then use them with your Bitcoin to buy gift cards.

And with those gift cards, you can spend it in a real world, essentially living on the Bitcoin standard just the way Satoshi wanted you to do so. And the best thing they have, in my opinion, is the KYC free buys. It's the cheapest in the game, at least in Canada it is.

You go to Canada Post, give them your dirty fiat cuck box, and they are going to load up your full Bitcoin account. And with that, you could buy some KYC free Bitcoin. We talk about the merits of buying KYC free Bitcoin. And if you haven't already done so, there's a video I put out on our channel. Check it out. It goes through the steps on how to get KYC-free Bitcoin. It's private. It's secure.

It's the best way to get Bitcoin, in our opinion. User referral code. If you do that, you get $21 added to your account. No questions asked. So with the formalities now out of the way, I think it's now time we could bring the man of the hour to the main stage and push me to the side because I think you guys had enough of hearing of me. Here we are. Praveen, buddy, how are you? Good, doing good. What's up? Living the dream. Number one, I want to thank you for coming on. For people who are unaware,

I'm going to give some behind the scenes footage over here because we had a late cancellation. And as a result, I was left scrambling to try to find somebody to come in the first person that came to mind you could ask joey even you came to mind praveen you did and because i always wanted to talk to you on this show not only that we've interacted numerous times over the last few years but i'm not sure if you're aware but you and i i don't think i've ever had a one-on-one before we haven't had our first this is our first one-on-one it is and we're doing it doing it live so everybody can see it's that's the reality i've never had a sit down with you and talked about anything it's always been in a group setting so this was something i'm looking forward to so for the people out there who don't know who we and i have a one-on-one but it was a one-on-one

tussle but you know one-on-one i'm not gonna touch that with a 10-foot pole but for the people who don't know who is pervy pervera who the heck are you um i don't know man man. I'm just a Bitcoin pleb. Got into Bitcoin pretty late. Originally Canadian. I'm a developer as well. Recently moved to Texas because Canada is cucked and not very cool. The weather's better over there know you can you can own guns you can go to restaurants even when it's covid um you know you can do what you want it's nice and uh yeah i'm a developer too so like you know work-wise it's also better here to be honest and you're a developer you are a software developer yes software developer that's correct now before i go into that i really want to dive deep into that that topic but in terms of the migrant situation that's going on in texas is that something that's noticeable for you no i mean i'm in austin so that's um i'm not even in austin i'm still like north of austin like an hour north so um and i don't go into like

austin downtown enough to see anything so around here it's very nice quiet don't really see anything which is how I like it you're in the right part of the world I guess enjoy it while it lasts because things change pretty quick and sometimes for the better and other times for the worse so enjoy it while it's there who knows you might have to find another jurisdiction

to flinch your feet there so yeah I mean if I'm moving anywhere it's going to be even more out to buttfuck nowhere even more out of the city just you know yeah i do not want to live in a city or anywhere close to one even an hour is a little too close that's fair are you planning to go to the canadian bitcoin conference next Bitcoin Conference this year that's taking place in Montreal? No, not this year. Yeah, not this year.

Because, yeah, you did attend the one in Toronto last year. And I chatted with you then, but it was in a group setting, as I mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I went to that, and then I got stuck there for four months for immigration. So now I'm afraid to come back to Canada. I didn't want to touch that one. But, yeah, don't trust, but verify when it comes to anything, especially when you're talking to come back to Canada. I didn't want to touch that one, but yeah, don't trust but verify when it comes to anything, especially when you're talking to immigration or even lawyers.

Make sure that you get the right information and verify. Because as you say, you could get stuck. Oh, man. You're a software developer. And from what I understand, you're heavily into Rust. Is that correct? Yeah. So recently I've been doing a lot more Rust development work.

And yeah, it's good language. Yeah. So, I mean, tell me about it because I'm more familiar with C and lesser C++. But Rust, I have never touched. But I do understand that even like with the Linux kernel, for instance, they are trying to migrate some of the code towards Rust and trying to move away from traditional C and C++. So I know that Rust is becoming more prevalent. So I want to hear your thoughts on how Rust is and how easy it is to use. And is it a low-level language?

Yeah. So it's a low-level language, mostly, I guess, replacements for C and kind of pertinent to what we're talking about. But I don't know if you know, Microsoft released this study saying basically 70% of all bugs are memory-related bugs. So if you're familiar with C, you have to init the memory, de-init the memory, and if you do it at the wrong time, you get problems. So Rust, one of its main features it started out as is basically um eliminating those kind of memory bugs so uh what it's it's called a borrower checker um with it if if you do safe rust basically you'll you eliminate an entire class of bugs in your

programs um and other than that it's just like a really nice language to use it's a low level language but i tend to use it for everything now just because that's how good it is um anywhere from web web stuff clis um i can i like to use it for everything and um it's been picking up more and more in like the bitcoin ecosystem as well. Bitcoin, Noster, a lot of people using it. Is there a garbage collection? Is that part of the whole using of Rust? No. That's the innovation, I guess. It's safe

memory without garbage collection. Okay. That makes it a lot easier to develop for it without having the memory leaks. That's a real problem with C. If you're not clean, if you're not tidy with memory leaks and yeah that's a real problem with c if you're not clean if you're not tidy with your code you can have a real problem with memory leaks and yeah yeah i mean it doesn't get rid of memory leaks what it does get rid of is memory bugs where basically you reference an object we're getting into it but like that you're already

freed uh and that leads to exploits basically so um yeah it gets rid of that class of exploits um yeah and basically it couldn't be a low-level language if it had a garbage collector so it's i guess that's the innovation like um don't have to completely manually manage memory but also uh there's no garbage collector have you been building anything for bitcoin it had like any projects anything along those lines using your skills as a software developer uh not yet i haven't i've i've always wanted to like work in bitcoin like do something in bitcoin but my struggle is like i don't want to just do something in bitcoin to do it i want to do something if i

feel like i can really add some value and i don't think i uh i've gotten there yet and also to be honest it's the money right like it's just much easier to make money not in Bitcoin. Even if I wanted to go work in Bitcoin right now, I'd probably have to take less of a salary and all that kind of stuff. So unless I'm really, really sure about something I want to work, I'm going to just stack stats for now.

That's the way to do it, brother. That's the way to do it. So I want to just move on and talk about something that may be a little controversial. I apologize to everybody out there that are pro this camp and inscriptions. And I see in the chat we have D is over there. And he's been on this show and he's talked about it a few times. And we've given him a little bit of flack for his uh association with that camp in the past i think he's sort of moving away from it so let's not give him too much

i don't know if he's moving away he's he's the number one cheerleader on twitter whenever it comes up they're defending it i i'm not gonna say that i'll leave that i don't want to talk about d too much just because he can't defend himself right now that's exactly it yeah i'm trying to pump him up as much as i can but yeah inscriptions in your eyes yeah you think this is something that's an abuse of syntax a bug a feature like what do you view this as i mean uh before we talk about that i just want to let you know i do have a favorite inscription i think it's 956 or something like that great great one love it big fan i think i'm thinking of paying about 50 bitcoin for this soon that's a steal all right people on the audio side it's a picture of d with um a penis in front of his face

and uh yeah well 50 bitcoin if everybody wants to buy it from praveen he looks like he's uh selling it he'll send it over to you and maybe he'll even sign it and uh yeah but yeah in terms of the inscription i i'd love to know like how you view it because those are the way i've heard it i heard it like a bug feature and also the one that i think i'm in the camp of it's abusive syntax i think that's where i stand but abusive i mean abusive syntax it's not it's kind of like um it's it's a weird uh distinction to me because abusive syntax kind of wouldn't that just mean bug or exploit you know what i mean um yeah so i think one of the things i hate about the damn shit scription people is like

they have they do not argue in good faith they they have and they have the worst argument so i think it's undeniable by definition that is it is a bug or an exploit because um because nobody knew that like that you were going to be able to, like, this was going to be a thing, right? These large inscriptions with no, with no financial transactions actually going. And I'm specifically talking about JPEGs and inscriptions right now. Um, and like, even the way they do it is like, you're basically tricking Bitcoin into accepting your arbitrary data. Um, I, you saw the video I sent, right? You're basically tricking Bitcoin into accepting your arbitrary data. You saw the video I sent, right?

I mean, we can go into it. But like, yeah, like inscriptions are basically Bitcoin script, a Bitcoin script that doesn't do anything. Its whole point is to not evaluate to anything. And the whole point is there is to just dump all this arbitrary data on the chain. So I haven't heard a good argument for why it's not a bug. The only argument they have is it's already in Bitcoin, so it's not a bug, right? That's not a good argument.

Like software, we make bugs all the time. And sometimes the bugs make it into production and then we fix it. Obviously it's different with a blockchain because you can't just roll back and change, but it doesn't change the nature of what it is, it's still a bug, it's still an exploit. That's fair. Now, if it is indeed a bug, then the way I'm looking at it is unless you have consensus with miners and node runners out there to filter out these types of transactions through the network,

it's still going to propagate. And it's still going to be a thing that is going to have to be dealt with moving forward. So I'm trying to get at is what's the way forward to fix this? It would, it be a hard fork or is it something else? Honestly, like this is probably where I do agree with the inscriptions like people if i like gun to head if if you ask me like can we

do anything about this like for sure um i don't i don't maybe probably not maybe like maybe if we do the filters and everybody filters it out maybe it'll slow it down enough to get rid of it. But that's the argument that the shit-scription people want you to make. Oh, like, we can't get rid of it 100%, so what's the point in trying? That's not a good argument, right? Like, we should fix the filters if that's the right thing to do. If the filters are broken, if they're not catching things that should, like, we already have the data carrier size. Basically, what inscriptions does is it's a back way around the data carrier size basically this what what inscriptions does is

it's a back back way around the data carrier size like it's not calculated in it so luke dash jr's like fix makes sense to me like i don't i don't i don't know why we have to evaluate if this fix is is going to stop inscriptions uh permanently. I think that the two questions you ask is, is this going to create more bugs? And is this fixing something that should have been fixed in the first place? Like, is this fixing a bug? And I think the answer to that is yes,

it's fixing something, so let's fix it. I don't see the harm. The best argument they have is, oh, you can plug plug this hole but there will be many other holes okay like that's true for anything there's always going to be exploits and windows that doesn't that doesn't stop them from fixing the current ones like what are you supposed to say throw up your hands oh there'll always be bugs let's not fix this one yeah so yeah you hear that it's gonna be like a whack-a-mole thing. So by doing that, by just by giving into that argument, then there's essentially be no fixes to any sort of software, you're just leaving it as it is. But software always develops, and either node runners choosing to have this eliminated from their mempool or miners themselves just not mining blocks that have this type of bug in it, as you call it?

Is that something that you would consider to be censorship? No. you would consider to be censorship no this is um going backwards a little bit um i think i think it's great that individual node runners can add their own filters and stuff but i think it should be fixed in bitcoin core like it's a bug that should be addressed right there like there's a pr just merge it um no that's another argument i hate that the inscription people make oh i thought you were a bitcoin maxi all about freedom, but you want to censor. We're not censoring anything. Bitcoin is a protocol of rules, rules without rulers. There's no financial trends. I'm not picking and choosing. Oh, I like this financial transaction. I'm going to censor it. Or I don't like this. I'm not'm not i'm not arbitrarily censoring anything i'm fixing a filter i'm updating a filter filters are already there right nobody's calling those filters um censorship and and like and the big thing is even with brc20s inscriptions like bitcoin is not really being exchanged like how how much bitcoin is being sent like 500 like 10 000 stats maybe

and that's the only reason they do that is they have to do it to get around the system right like it's not i hate that argument that is censorship i really hate it brc20 tokens in my eyes i think they are the bigger problem we have to do it i i mean i could be wrong but it seems like that they are providing more spam to the network. And I'm calling it spam because I'm looking at it and it's not a typical transaction that I would see typically that a Bitcoiner would do. This is just instituting a shit coin

using Bitcoin as the medium of exchange. And it's just creating a whole bunch of problems with the transaction fees going up. So BRC20 tokens, if there's, in my eyes, if there's something that can be done to get rid of that, I would love to do that. So is it an all-in-one? Could you deal with one, like inscriptions, and not BRC20 tokens? Or deal with BRC20 tokens and not inscriptions? Or do you have to deal with them both at the same time?

Is it something, it's an's an all or nothing type situation? I think, again, I'm not, like, I could be wrong. But from what I know, like the data carrier size would not stop brc 20s, unfortunately, right? Because the big, it basically just stops big JPEGs. I don't know how to stop brc20s that to me that seems less uh straightforward than stopping like jpegs um i'm sure someone has an idea somewhere but um yeah i'm again that's another argument they use oh like brc20s are the bigger problem like i don't care i don't care you know fix the, and then we'll see if BRC20s are also a problem we can fix. It's a lot of defeatist. If we don't have the perfect solution, we can't improve it kind of arguments.

I'm going to get a little philosophical here, so hear me out. And I'm going to try to defend this as much as possible, even though it's hard for me to do, but I'm going to do it at my level best. If you look at Bitcoin, Bitcoin is, really there's two things to it. You have the network itself and you have the tokens. They go hand in hand. The tokens are given to miners

as a reward to secure the network. But the network itself gets more secure as more miners come on. And so it just becomes this positive feedback loop that then the value of the token goes up and then the network gets more secure as more miners come on. And so it just becomes this positive feedback loop that then the value of the token goes up and then the network gets more secure and so forth. So, but the network itself,

if you want to just look at that, there is value with the network because it is being secured with energy, with proof of work. And using inscriptions, obviously we may not agree with putting cat pictures and so forth, but maybe there is something out there

with using inscriptions that could provide value with using Bitcoin as a network to put in that data into it. And by doing so, it would then be secured by the network, but also by the token itself that has the value, which the miners are trying to chase the value of that as well. So can you see a world in which there is a use to use this operaturn bug to use the network

itself to store data and make it so that there's some value behind it? I'm curious your thoughts on that. First of all, I'm going to fix you on the opera turn bug thing just because it's description people are super annoying so if we don't address it they're like oh look they don't even know what they're talking about right it's not in the opera turn it doesn't actually use the opera turn for inscriptions um but i will also disagree with you on the token network thing um i don't know if i would separate the two because it's a monetary network and the network is there to validate and transact the token right i don't know if we could

separate them and even like the proof of work it's there to secure the ledger not the network right so i'm not sure i quite understand see i'm looking at the network as it's almost its own entity but it's a tied to directly with the coins and the the coins are what's being issued as a reward for securing said network and so by doing so by by having that they are still separate but yet they are connected through the whole mechanism of the proof of work and the demand to mine it and to build the next block. So, I mean, in my eyes, they are separate. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking. And, you know, it sounds like you're thinking that I am wrong.

But that's the way I look at it, that there is a value in each of the two. And I think we have yet to discover what is the value of the network i think this is something that is still we have to figure out is there is value there we just haven't figured out the case use of it and when you figure out the case what is the value of that and once that unlocks the value then the value of bitcoin as a whole would be tremendously large because it's not just you looking at the tokens itself we're now looking at the network too but this is just my thoughts i don't know i definitely i definitely disagree because the value of bitcoin is bitcoin as money right it doesn't need to be anything else it

doesn't need to be uh use the network for like its entirety uh the proof of work secures the the blockchain the which is the distributed ledger right the network if you're including miners and nodes they're all just validating it right or you know miners are making blocks and the nodes are validating so i don't think i don't want to say that there's value in the network i think bitcoin is money and i think it's great money and it should remain that way. And I don't think it needs to be anything else. That's the main thing. Why does it need to do JPEGs and stuff like this is a huge problem we're trying to solve.

Like if we solve this problem, like we're going to unlock so much human capacity. Like we don't need to we don't need a network. We don't need to distribute it. What are we going to do with it? You know, we don't need it. Like the money thing is much more important. Let's focus on that. Let's have perfect money first.

Like we don't need like Nostra. Nostra is a network. You know, that's a distributed network. That value for that is there. So, yeah, I disagree. That's fair. Since you brought it up, let's talk about Nostra. Because Nostra is, for people that haven't yet used it, is a network that they have the ability where you

communicate a la Twitter or X these days. That's the new name of it. So you could use it and it is a totally decentralized network in such that you are not relying on a server to provide you with the algorithm to feed you. It's just whoever you follow, that's what's going to be fed to your timeline. And it's generally if you use it, it's clean of any spam. No, sorry, there's spam there. It's clean of any noise. The people that

you follow is generally what you hear. And if they're all providing you signal, well, they're just going to be all signal, very little noise. So maybe I said it wrong. It's going to be high signal very little noise so uh maybe i'm sorry i may set it wrong it's going to be high signal low noise on noster but anyways i used it quite a bit i've since stopped using it a little bit lately because of time constraints you're a big fan of it right you use it you you uh you communicate it i want to hear your thoughts about it and what you think is going to be happening moving forward with it because there

seems to be a lot of potential here that could be unlocked with Nostr. I like to think of myself as a Nostr realist. The tech I think is cool. I think Nostr is cool, and I think it has a lot of potential. But I don't want to lie and say I use Nostr more than Twitter. I definitely use Twitter more. But maybe that's because the algorithm pulled me in. Nostr is mostly Bitcoiners right now.

But I don't like the people that shit on Nostra for where it is right now. That's like those people that when the internet came, like, oh, what are you going to do with this, right? Nostra has a lot of potential and a lot of people building on it. A lot of building going on. And yeah, I think it has a lot of potential. I don't know about the signal to noise i think the nice thing about it is it's very like choose your own adventure right you um when there's different algorithms you'll be able to choose um what you want and right now we're only doing um basically twitter cones mostly right but there's

a lot of other stuff um that's coming uh that are being worked on and the nice thing about nostre is that you can build apps that you couldn't build with like web 2 technology like right um mostly because um a lot of people think nostre is just twitter but because it's so simple it can be used for different apps and then or and then all these different apps can pull from each other, right? So I don't know if you've heard of Highlighter, but basically it lets you highlight the web, right? So you see an article, you make highlights, and the app will show you the important stuff from that highlight. So what people can do is you can subscribe to someone else's highlight feed for example if that's what you wanted right or you can use that in a in another

nostra app that does something completely different so um yeah so i don't think i'm not i haven't replaced nostra uh twitter with nostra but i think there's a lot of potential there and i wouldn't dismiss it i think it's too early for anybody to totally get rid of Twitter slash X and use Nostra. Nostra is, by comparison, it's an infant. And there's still lots of growing that has to be done to make it. If you're just using it as a tool for communicating like what you do on Twitter slash X. So Nostra itself, it's hard to compare it. I mean, you can see there are comparables, but it's just you're looking at a minor leaguer versus an all-star.

It's just two different things. That's the reality of it. But the potential is there, and I think we both agree to it. Jack Dorsey is building up on it, or even putting his money where his mouth is. I'm not sure if you're aware, but he's funding some projects with respect to Noster. He's very fond of Nostr and I find it to be rather interesting given the comparable between Nostr and Twitter and his relationship to Twitter now and no longer but at one time you know he was the CEO and he was one of the founders of

Twitter from I understand so the fact that he's an on Nostr he's a big proponent of it and trying to fund projects to make it better I find that to be rather bullish are you aware of anything that he's funding that specific just i'm not sure i'm i think i'm not sure about this don't quote me but i think his money is going through the open sats foundation and they have yeah i think you're right um so you know whatever they've funded recently i guess you could say jack funded um yeah it is interesting and the other interesting thing is he also has like a distributed social networking thing um blue sky which like that's the you know the really really blue haired people left twitter for macedon and like the slightly faded-haired people went to BlueSky.

I've heard of this. I didn't even know what it was, to be honest. Mostly the tech people. He also has Web5, which is indirectly competing with Noster, so I think it's interesting he's funding all that. Which makes me think maybe he really is

a good guy. He just wants the best product to win. Yeah. I agree. And that's actually best for humanity in the end because he's trying to push for something. So yeah, I totally agree.

CTV check template, verify covenants, right? This is something which I think it's making a lot of headway these days. We see a lot of the Rubin pictures out there that are just associated with all this. And I want to hear your thoughts because for people who aren't aware, I'll give you like the,

the best, sorry, I'll give you a very basic understanding and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong. It opens up a lot of potential that these, the CTV does. And one of it would be, for example,

where you could essentially have only your Bitcoin sent to a particular address that you choose. So no other. It has to only go to that one. And that's just one example. And for the reason of that would be if ever your keys are lost, it would then if they move the Bitcoin, it would then only go to the address that you choose. So by doing so, Bitcoin would be better protected. That's the idea. But so that's one of the things behind it.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on CTV because this is, as I mentioned, it's making a lot of noise on Twitter these days. Yeah. So technically, I really like CTV. I think it brings really good things, not just the volts but scaling and all that. I forget what podcast podcast but an analogy i heard was basically um when bank robberies happened um started happening they they would control the size of the vault door because that would determine how much gold could leave so uh

ctv kind of gives you a version of that as well, because you can decide how much Bitcoin can leave per block or per transaction and stuff like that. And the other thing about volts, yeah, is what you're describing. You could have like a can only you know, you can have all these complex spending conditions like you can spend X amount in the next 10 blocks. But if you want to spend more than that, you have to wait 100 blocks and it can only go to address a b c or d um there's other stuff that i haven't looked into uh quite as much but like the utxo sharing and how we can make light lightning better and lightning pools and all that kind of stuff um but here's my problem bitcoin isn isn't just technical. It's social. It's a social network, right? And I liked CTV until I saw all the inscription people promoting it.

But not just that. I think the inscription saga should have taught Bitcoiners a lesson, including me. Because I remember when we were all so excited about taproot and yes this is possible without taproot blah blah blah and and ctv is not as a big change but it was still an unforeseen uh consequence right having a four four meg uh wizard on an entire block was not possible with a taproot and nobody nobody knew that would happen, right? It was an unknown unknown, and then it reared its ugly head. And now everyone's so confident, because CTV is a small change, that they've thought of everything. There's no unknown unknowns.

It's an arrogant way of thinking. I don't like it, right? So I like CTV technically. I think we'll get it someday eventually but um i am definitely okay with delaying it until it's absolutely necessary until it becomes so painful that everyone's begging for it um i think that's my stance on ctv and upgrades and in general because like yeah i mean i don't know that's that's how i feel about it it's especially because seeing how nobody wants to fix the filters it lets me know that like

you know once something is in the bitcoin now it's a valid transaction all of a sudden that's the inscription people's biggest argument oh it's a valid transaction so like if you uh introduce something to bitcoin there's no going back right you're not gonna fix it so let's delay it uh and maybe i'm petty and i and i don't and i don't want the inscription people to have what they want even if i'm not sure i haven't decided that part yet so casey rodimer he's the guy behind the inscriptions and i can't believe i keep bringing this topic back up but he is on record to say that you would still have inscriptions even without taproot it was still

possible and he said i believe he even said without segwit as well so the fact that we have segwit and taproot it doesn't mean that inscriptions are as a result of it it's just we now have it i think cheaper especially taproot it's now subsidized by so uh so maybe that could have been sorry yeah i mean he's a developer so he's gonna say stuff that is technically true yeah it's technically true that you know fine you can call up return and inscription so that's technically true but it took off because of the 4 mega, all the actual JPEGs. Like, that's what started all this, right? So, yeah. Is it technically possible?

Yeah. But if it wasn't for Taproot, would it have happened? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Because, like, you need excitement. You need network effects for this shit to take off, right? And would that have happened if with these

little inscriptions here and there or did it happen because it it looked like nfts and the four meg wizard created a lot of buzz who's to say right they may they talk in absolutes like oh it's possible it's technically possible i don't care if it's technically possible would it have happened there's no way for you to know for sure yeah and i i'm with you on that and so going back to the ctv and the covenants discussion i also agree with you and the fact that i'm afraid to hear and see what is going to be discovered moving forward if it ever is made live the unintended consequences or even there may be something that's already known and somebody is already and you're just obviously keeping that under wraps until the time it's it's then live and

they can take advantage of it already zero days and then what how you're right and it's not like you could then have all node runners and miners just try to filter that garbage out that's the lesson we've learned because of the inscriptions because as the inscription people love to say like d always says oh oh, go try it. Why don't you try it? Like, OK, thanks for teaching me a lesson that we can't fix it if we do fuck it up. So let's be careful. D, I love it.

So there is like there is a heck of a lot at stake here. And if we do fuck things up with respect to Bitcoin, we potentially might miss an opportunity to modernize the monetary system it's got to be done right so i guess ossification that's the camp that you're sitting in um i wouldn't say ossification outright just because i i do think we'll need scaling in the future um i will define myself as ossification for now, or ossification until we can't ossify anymore, or ossification until it becomes really, really fucking painful. So then what is the path forward with something like CTV to keep it on the sidelines and to keep it saving testnet or anything else? Like at what point then do you say okay it's ready to go like i want to hear how do you how do we test this thing out thoroughly yeah in not like a wild system

but essentially in a controlled environment and then say yeah we've done enough testing yeah figure it out uh yeah actually before i get to that um like another thing i saw about ctv that not a lot of people were talking about, but I saw like a poster too, was like someone being really happy that CTV is going to make DLCs easier. Um,

yeah. Are you familiar with DLCs? Vaguely. I don't, I understand you and D were talking about this in our chat. So maybe you could, uh, enlighten me about this because so,

um, I know that you're very much dead set against it. Um, yeah, I mean, you could uh enlighten me about this because so i know that you're very much dead set against it um yeah i mean my small understanding of it is dlc is basically gambling on the blockchain while using or gambling on bitcoin while using external um external oracles to bet on stuff that'll happen or did happen but blah blah blah or actually no stuff that will happen not did happen uh and again i like bitcoin for money i don't think we need that shit so if ctv is going to make dlcs easier better yeah i think i might be against it because better means what more people are going to be using it it's going to be more shit coining on bitcoin you know so and then and the thing that gets me is i only saw one like from searching like one post or a couple people talking about it and then all the people that

are pumping up uh ctv i haven't heard anybody talk about it like on podcasts and stuff or uh saying you know this is not possible so i don't know maybe i'm wrong but seems weird um sorry what was your actual question? That was about DLCs. No, no, before that. Before I went into my rant about DLCs. Oh, and I can't even remember. I have a question, though, specifically to where you are in your location.

You're in the United States. Yeah. And we didn't even talk about this at all, you and I, never. So this is coming out of left field for you here. This past week, we had Biden and his team, the Energy Information Administration. That's part of the Department of Energy. And they're going out there. They're asking for a voluntary survey to be done for an emergency collection of data requests.

And with respect to bitcoin mining operations because of the amount of energy they use now i'm talking about this because i want to talk a little about the decentralization network that we have with bitcoin where essentially anybody could run a node or anybody could run a miner now what they're doing what they're trying to do here i suppose is try to gather as much information as possible with respect to all the mining setups, all the mining operations they have over there. I want to hear your thoughts about this

because this could potentially have a major impact about what's going to happen where the mining is going to be taking place in the world. And right now, it's predominantly in the United States. Yeah, I don't know if I have a lot to add to this just because I'm not very... This is the first i'm hearing about it oh yeah this is quite large and you being in a great state of texas there's a lot of miners over there and this could potentially impact them over there because they're gonna be collecting information and once

they have this information could it be maybe a bitcoin mining version of 6102 i i don't know maybe um maybe maybe i'm selfish like i i don't i don't care like i don't care where the mining is happening you know what i mean um it's good for texas that it's happening here right now but you know if biden goes down this route and he wants to screw whoever screw over all the miners in texas uh that sucks for them but I'm not too worried about it. Like, you know, Bitcoin's survived it before with China. It'll survive it again. But it would make me question, if I was a miner,

it would make me question, you know, setting up shop here. Makes you also wonder why Ocean is a U.S. company, you know? Like, why didn't they i guess it's because like it's the easiest place to get investment but like it seems like with everything in the you know with everything what's the phrase it's written on the wall right um like you would think that they might have considered other jurisdictions yeah i know i didn't realize that they were set they had set up shop in the states because as a mining pool they could basically do it anywhere like the cayman

island or something there's yeah obviously there's advantages to do so but they must have done it in the united states for i guess some reasons maybe it's investment yeah i i don't know what are your thoughts notion mining because they're they've ruffled a lot of feathers and they created a lot of waves and no pun intended what are your thoughts on that um i mean as you can probably imagine i'm a big fan i like it um but i mean even if you didn't like uh or did like it like ocean um it's good you're getting some variety like um you know more more mining pools the better and then um i like to see different opinions and then let the market decide where they want to go um and then like miners being able to do their

own block templates that'll be a big big thing for decentralization and the fact that i mean they're not able to do it just yet right now they're still relying on the pool to do everything for them so in terms of where they could point their hash rate or hash power they could do wherever they want and you're right if they want to point it to ocean they can if they want to point it to ant pool or f2 pool whatever they want they have the ability to do so so i like what ocean's doing they're setting it up and they're attracting a lot of hash rate now i'm curious to see what happens because right now from what i understand they're offering some sort of incentive financial incentive to point out to them zero percent fees right yeah so once those fees are gone yeah i'm curious to see if the hash rate is going to plummet

the hash rate with respect to ocean mining is going to plummet because then there's less financial incentive to use them it's ultimately let's be honest miners they're businesses they're trying to maximize their profits and if they could squeak a little bit more by using ocean mining the competitor they'll point it there but then once that's gone they'll go to the next one because they don't give a fuck yeah for the most part i think that's so i'm curious to see what's going to happen once i mean maybe you can maybe you can um maybe i'm just reading the chat as well uh mark's bored apparently mark's chirping us i'm bored um well yeah so maybe you can make an argument for like maybe if the miners are really low time preference and they think this, you know, mining with this pool is going to be better for Bitcoin in the future. Maybe they'll,

but I think that's a pretty thin argument, but you know what I mean? You're probably right. Like they, they got to, they got to pay the bills. Yeah. Tunnels.

They want tunnels. No tunnels talk here. We're going to get kicked out of YouTube. So let's talk about scaling. And I think this is something we we might not totally agree on because that's good we're agreeing too much well we are i suspected that was going to be the case but this is a topic i think that we are going to be bigger in our heels and there's going to be a little bit of a battle because with respect to scaling there is an issue right now with bitcoin it obviously

the on-chain the layer one is not going to be sufficient enough to onboard billions of people if that's if it ever happens then the transaction fees will be through the roof and you'll never be able to get a single transaction processed so there's there's other options out there that are currently being talked about like fediments for instance and i'm not a big fan of it it's a trust model that i don't like but there are a couple of them that are in existence and they're being used one namely being lightning and i'm a fan of that another one being liquid and i've talked about that at great length so i want to hear your thoughts about these scaling solutions because i i think i know

where you stand but i want to just make sure everybody's aware where you stand. So we could maybe butt heads in this one. I don't know if we disagree too much, to be honest, actually. Scaling. Yeah. I don't know. Scaling. Definitely a problem right now. Lightning. Great on paper. It's just not great to use non-custodially. I don't, I don't know the answer like that's the thing i think like upgrades like ctv and any prev out and stuff like that will make um will make lightning easier to use and just nicer to use um but

liquid yeah i know you don't like liquid but i think liquid is a good solution at least for now but um obviously it's not going to scale forever and it's not the best trust model feddy mints again um i think it there could be a world where it makes sense you know if um if you're like a small city you're like a small town you uh people running the fetty you trust and if they steal from you you can go punch them in the face um that that kind of model could work five dollar wrench attack them get your big way back yeah yeah because like you know maybe yeah like technical technical ways of trust is not the only way, right? If it is

like a local group, you have more incentives like physical incentives not to fuck these people over. Of course you can leave and all that, but yeah, I don't know if, like, Lightning is great. It's limited

and I've mentioned this in the chat before the limitation there's just like and like people will say oh like use phoenix but like there's like let's be a lightning realist there's not a good non-custodial uh lightning solution and that's just because of the way it is right now like you know having to buy um liquidity and all that um but i saw i think arc is possible um with ctv that definitely sounds interesting um yeah but i think i mean for for again like uh don't let perfect be the enemy of good and um liquid is uh good good enough for now so i i think that makes sense as a temporary scaling solution even if it's just for stacking when you're the fees are really high so you kind of use it as like an intermediate pool buy into there and

then switch into bitcoin i don't see too much of a problem with that even and then like even with custodial lightning i don't see a problem with like you know putting 200 in a custodial lightning, I don't see a problem with putting $200 in a custodial lightning wallet and using that to spend. That's definitely preferable in a lot of ways than to use self-custodial lightning because you're just not going to do that. It's just a pain in the ass. It's not easy. It's $200. You might have $100 or $200 in your wallet right now, might it might fall out of your pocket when you're you know when you're out and about so this just different levels different trust models and that's probably also how it's going to scale

right like uh bitcoin obviously completely trustless i hope that there's a a day where there's like a zero trust trust trustless, like layer two, that would be, that would be the Holy girl. And I hope we do get to that. And yeah. Wouldn't then lightning be that? Because it is,

if you do custody yourself, it's trustless. You're the only total. Now I should have said trustless and easy to use. Well, actually, no, I think I texted my criteria for it. It's trustless, but it's also a hot wallet, right? So my ideal layer, too, which I don't even know if it would ever be possible, but something I can have a cold wallet and and trustlets um would be you know the holy grail because because they it's lightning is trustless but it's not risk-free

you're a software developer i think you should probably figure this out i'm kidding it's it's it's it would be right it would be the holy gra. Now I want to tackle these all one at a time. And let's start with lightning. So lightning, the user experience fucking sucks. It's terrible. There's no doubt about it that even being a user or managing your own lightning channels fucking sucks. And in terms of the scalability of lightning, there is limitation. It cannot scale right now and reach billions of people if you look at the lightning white paper and it's the last page or second last page you could see the person that wrote the white paper

and obviously he's a lightning maximalist he even acknowledges that given the current constraints it's not going to work the current uh constraints in terms of four megabyte blocks with bitcoin you're not going to be able to achieve this because if people are going to create a channel one channel i think one channel a year he said you would need 133 megabyte blocks in order to achieve what you want with lightning so obviously we don't have blocks that big in bitcoin so lightning cannot scale so there are options out there channel factories being one of them and still there's a lot of work to be done on this and the proof is you know it's in the pudding but we still have to essentially prove this is to be a working model but that seems to be it right now lightning good on paper but still a lot of work to be done

and it can't scale and yeah and also uh just want to say one thing about the phoenix when you're getting that um rent when you're getting liquidity you're renting liquidity from what i understand it's only for a year yeah yeah that makes sense and then they'll close the channel after uh bit kit uh i forget what their uh lsp is uh was but i think it works the same way you're always like renting liquidity and like yeah and i don't even know if the economics for that works out today because when they rent you liquidity, that's money you could have put in somewhere else, right? And you're not actually paying that much to rent it.

Yeah. Yeah, and there is also the added cost. Obviously, you're going to have to run a full node and then on top of that a lightning node so if you don't have that equipment you're gonna have to purchase it manage it and make it so there's there's no downtime so there is time and effort and money you have to invest to make it worth your while but and that's lightning uh the risk of losing it because it's on a hot wallet yeah yeah, that's true. It's always a possibility. So that's Lightning.

Obviously, I've talked fondly of it, but I don't want to gloss over that there are some glaring problems that need to be resolved. Lightning is not it right now. It may be it, but right now it ain't it. Liquid, let's talk about that. And I've mentioned my displeasure of it. And it's really just a trust model.

And that's the big thing. Because I'm a big fan. Over the years, I didn't give a fuck about trust. But after I've watched event after event after event take place, be it domestically here in Canada or even internationally, I don't want to say too much about that. I am a big fan of having control of your destiny and using liquid. They might have a perfect record right now. I don't know what's going to happen moving forward. It's essentially a trust model. You're giving up your Bitcoin. You're giving you an IOU for that Bitcoin later on. And it's, you know, if this was in any other name, you know, and if somebody else was behind it,

like if say Vitalik was running the project, would we trust it as much? I don't know. It's, it's something that I always wondered. And you may call me a statist here, but the reality is my face is here. I have to, it's always, it's out and about. So I have to tell people, if you do exchange Bitcoin for anything, in Canada at least, that is a taxable event.

I'm not sure if it's like that in other parts of the world, but over here, once you transfer Bitcoin to something else, that is a taxable event. And then once you transfer it back to Bitcoin, it's also a taxable event. So it's got to be noted, it's got to be documented, it's got to be provided when you do your taxes. What happens if you buy Bitcoin and then transfer that to bitcoin

it's still it's you have to report this but like what does it count as a selling and buying at that new rate yes so whatever you bought it at and then you sold it for liquid you have to calculate that and there's going to be the capital gains tax that you're going to be paying i think on 50 of that so it becomes an administrative headache now if you're using ky seed bitcoin good fucking luck because that information theoretically is available for cra or whatever tax you know the tax man out there to find that information and fuck you over if you didn't report that so again this might be the status to me but it's the reality of it i'm not going to tell people to fucking willy willy do it you got to also adhere to the laws of the land this is unfortunately yeah i mean but that's also true if you buy anything with lightning then correct you're

spending bitcoin yeah um yeah yeah i'm not gonna get yeah it's true it's taxable but like um that seems like a pretty easy technical uh problem to solve though like especially if you're like um bull like you you just you just need good reporting right um so you can report it um and i don't think you can be losing much because it'll even out the bitcoin ups and downs hopefully the buy price was what you initially bought that bitcoin and i'll transfer it over to because you could have bought it years ago that's why i'm here my face is is here and it's in public i i don't want to tell people go do it and there's gonna be no consequences there potentially is just make sure you adhere to whatever laws there are because if you don't yeah it's okay that's fair but if you're doing kyc i'm sure like that wouldn't whoever like i'm sure bull can give

you a report of uh of when you bought it but um i'll tell you with what i disagree with you on um with regards to liquid is yeah i wouldn't tell anybody to put their all their life savings in liquid and keep it there forever but yeah it's not perfect but like other than the tax issue what's wrong with keeping a couple hundred couple thousand whatever just keeping some in there um and then transferring it out to Bitcoin every month. I wouldn't trust wrapped Bitcoin. I wouldn't trust anything else that's not Bitcoin. If it isn't Bitcoin, if I don't have the ability to manage it and control the keys, close the channel if it was Lightning,

I'm not for it. I want to have total control of it. So you're just willing to take zero risk on that, I guess. I want to minimize my risk. What about $200 on a custodial lightning wallet? I'm not a fan of it. Anything that's custodial, you're having somebody else manage it and you're trusting them. My opinion, this is just mine.

Everybody's different. I'm not a fan of it. I want to have total control over it. And the reason why I used to one time be a gold bug and there, you know, I used to think that there was merit in holding it and so forth, but two events took place in the past few years that really changed my mind.

And this has also changed me into who I am today. Venezuela had gold, still has gold in vaults in London that they cannot repatriate due to political reasons. Ditto for Russia. That is the gold that they purchased. Yeah, makes sense. We all agree on this. Yes, keep your life savings in in bitcoin but like uh it's you're making a calculation when you when you're using

custodial lightning or um uh liquid the custodial lightning is like you you put a put a dollar value on the risk you're taking on that 200 right that's probably going to be less than what you're paying for to rent the damn channel, right? That's fair. Same with liquid, put a dollar value on the risk you're taking, keeping a thousand, $2,000 in a month. Um, if that dollar value is less than, uh, the fees you're going to be paying mathematically, I feel like it makes sense. And like again like nobody's saying keep all your money in liquid or custodial lightning right like yeah great we all like we're bitcoiners for a reason like yes we want our our store value to be 100 secure not your keys not your coin all that but um yeah i'm with you and you have to obviously weigh that the pros and cons and the team match you're

going to put in it and you're 100 right my approach may not be the right one for everybody that's just it's more of a matter of principles and this is what i'm going to stand the hill i'm going to die on like oh yeah like i understand you're saying like i don't i just don't get it and like yeah someone was saying in the in the chat like the incentives don't make sense like what are you going to like rug 200 from like a thousand people and now your business is dead uh you know liquid you're gonna get rugged in your entire business like incentives don't make sense um i don't i don't understand your um principles argument like we all agree prince in principle not your keys not your, yeah, keep your shit safe. But like,

I don't know with that, then you're going to be saying no to a lot of scaling, a lot of layer twos, you know, I am. Because people will say using a paper copied of Bitcoin is scaling. Here's, you know,

at one time they used paper to scale a gold that, and ultimately that led to fiat. But the way that they were able to scale out gold was to issue notes that were backed by gold. And so one could make an argument. One way to scale up Bitcoin would be to issue paper Bitcoin in that same sense. Yeah, I definitely don't agree with that. But again, different use cases, right? Like, no, I think if Bitcoin doesn't give away for most people to custody their Bitcoin in a trustless way, right? It's very liable to turn into maybe not the exact same system but a similar system so we agree there like i don't think etf is a good um it's a good scaling solution but you know it gets it might be a good

ngu solution just because it gets it gets people into the market it gets it's like the first rabbit hole it could be the rabbit hole for bitcoin for a lot of people and then they can actually um yeah but do i think it's a good long-term scaling solution no like i hope that's not i hope that's not the fate of bitcoin because that wouldn't be great i i have real concerns that there's going to be some convertibility from people buying those etfs to actually becoming bitcoiners i think they're still going to stay within the fiat world until something happens. There has to be an event that forces them to change their mentality. They're going to stay in this world continually by ETFs and then live in that fiat world. There's got to be something. You might be right.

You might be right. But have you noticed how when people become Bitcoiners, they care about their health more? They started eating carnivore you know they don't wear sunscreen i guess the and the old saying is uh bitcoin change you don't change bitcoin bitcoin changes you so maybe maybe being in bitcoin they will go down that rabbit hole and they'll figure out hey am i really in bitcoin or am i in a paper paper version and maybe that i agree i hope you're right i just have low low and if they don't they don't they'll get or am I in a paper version? And maybe that's it. I agree. I hope you're right.

I just have low opinion. And if they don't, they'll get rugged. They'll get accelerated. And then they will, right? Accelerate, exactly. The first time we had an hour in. Do you have time for one more topic or do you have to get running?

No, I'm good. We can keep talking. I'll let you. Let's talk UTXO size because I know this is a topic that we had in our discussion not too long ago yeah and there was some questions to do with limitations or limits on utxos and i i from what i understand this is something that adam back talked about and i think people just mistook what he said yeah that's what i believe yeah i think i mistook it

too and then looked into it basically i heard someone say on a podcast or somewhere that there's a limit on UTXOs, which I took to understand to mean that there's a limit on UTXO outside the limit of the block size. And I don't think that's true. I think what he meant or whoever said it was there's the size of the UTXOs is governed by the size of the block, basically. Yeah. Like the overall UTXO limit. But I think what you're also talking about is that I forget which one, like stamps

protocol or whatever is bloating the UTXO set, and that's causing some troubles for lower-powered nodes. But to me, I was looking into it. It seems like a technical problem that if Bitcoin Core had the will to fix, they could. Like, it's... Yeah, it's just they haven't... Basically, I'm getting into the weeds but right now they they can't they take the entire uh utxo set and they not the entire like a big portion of it and

they put it in uh in ram and uh to make things simple if they run out of space they'll flush the flush the entire thing and then start building it again right um and i think they've done it like that because the it hasn't been a problem but there's no reason that they can't uh you know instead of flushing the whole thing do like a a queue where basically the last one that was used gets flushed new one gets added like technically like i don't think that's that as much of a issue as is stated by some people in my camp of hating inscriptions do you think that they're trying to appease the lower like the lowest common denominator in terms of equipment like horsepower cpu power ram it do you think that's why they're doing this and they're leaving it as

it is um sorry leaving as without making any any changes to the code to deal with the UTXOs. As you say, it's a, there could be better ways to manage it rather than just simply. Oh, I have the, well, why?

Oh, I just think like, like program, like when you're programming and like when you're coding it up, the way they're doing it is simpler than these more complex ways of handling the cash. And they haven't had to, they've had no reason to not just do it the simple way.

So, yeah, if somebody wanted to, they could, like, I'm not saying it's easier, like, you know, everybody's volunteers. But like, it's to me, it's a technical problem, not like a consensus problem or whatever. Let's get you to get all riled up against the core developers because I think there are, there's been a number of times I've seen you say comments about the core developers that, you know, you've been, you know, negative towards them. I want to hear your thoughts about them. What do you think about the core developers and if they're essentially good for Bitcoin long-term?

Well, I have no, yeah i'm not gonna say i hate all the core developers or whatever um you know i i just don't like the arguments i've been seeing and again this is uh coming from d a lot of times they're they belittle the people that come from a less of a technical background and come from a philosophical background to say why they don't like, why they don't like inscriptions and they shut them down. Like, Oh, you don't understand what's going on. Look at me.

I'm the developer. I get it. And I say, you're wrong. I just don't like that. I think it's, it's a shitty argument and you, you don't need to know technically what's happening to decide if like

you think this is more quote-unquote morally right or wrong for bitcoin right so i don't like the i don't like the arguments of like who like who are you you don't even know what you're talking about technically i'm i'm a developer like you're an idiot like you're just a stupid maxi. Filters aren't going to fix anything. Go read about this. Yeah, piss me off. I love it. So on that, I think we'll end it.

Unless you have anything else you want to bring up, any other topic or any last words, I'm going to pass it over to you because you haven't been unhinged. And I kind of like that. It's good in terms of YouTube. But if you want to go off the rails, like, you know, last words, it's all yours, brother.

I can't be unhinged on command. Hold on, let me bring D from the, I got him in the background here. I'll bring him on. Yeah, honestly, if D came on here and made his damn stupid arguments, then I'd probably be unhinged. But, you know, you're a very respectable guy, and we mostly agree. Like, what, am I going to start yelling at you because I agree with you?

No, that doesn't make sense. Being asked when we're going to be doing a Corn Lords episode. Just like a roundtable? Yeah, let's do that. You know, let's get some drinks involved, and then uh you'll see a lot of unhinged people yeah it won't be on youtube it will won't be able to last that long yes so with that like praveen i want to thank you very much for coming on a show

short notice you've been awesome um before i hand it off to you just want to just say everybody uh check out d i sorry check out Praveen and Dee as well. Praveen's Twitter account, I put it in his show notes. If you want to follow it, definitely give it a follow-up because he gives a lot of good insight. Praveen, where can people find you? Last words before we get away from this thing. Yeah, just Twitter.

I have a website, but it's like blog posts i haven't really done much uh i'm not really online except for twitter last words uh stop spamming the damn bitcoin network man okay right bitcoin is money it doesn't need to be anything else like just fix the damn money fix the world well i can't wait for programming with praveen that's gonna be a youtube show that's gonna come out everybody praveen perera thank you very much for coming on out and with that we'll be back at this on monday so take care and don't be a cuck later