The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - The CBP - Quoth The Raven (Chris Irons), Bitcoin and our Bullshit Economy (w/ guest Larry Lepard)

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

FRIENDS AND ENEMIES Join us for some QUALITY Bitcoin and economics talk, with a Canadian focus, every Monday at 7 PM EST. This week we welcome Quoth The Raven to the program. QTR is a financial skeptic, researcher, podcaster and blogger - you can check out his work at the QTR Podcast or on QTR's Fringe Finance Substack. Chris recently published a great piece (and great resource) describing his pivot to Bitcoiner, and it's worth your time. Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/quoth-the-raven/id1348446973 Substack: https://quoththeraven.substack.com/ From a couple of Canucks who like to talk about how Bitcoin will impact Canada. As always, none of the info is financial advice. Website: ⁠www.CanadianBitcoiners.com ⁠Discord: ⁠ ⁠https://discord.gg/ESRCZWpb⁠ A part of the CBP Media Network: ⁠www.twitter.com/CBPMediaNetwork This show is sponsored by: easyDNS - ⁠⁠https://easydns.com/⁠⁠ EasyDNS is the best spot for Anycast DNS, domain name registrations, web and email services. They are fast, reliable and privacy focused. You can even pay for your services with Bitcoin! Apply coupon code 'CBPMEDIA' for 50% off initial purchase Bull Bitcoin - ⁠⁠https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/cbp⁠⁠ The CBP recommends Bull Bitcoin for all your BTC needs. With their new kyc-free options, there's never been a quicker, simpler, more private and (most importantly) cheaper way to acquire private Bitcoin. Use the link above for $20 bones, and take advantage of all Bull Bitcoin has to offer. Check out the other podcasts on the network: The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast (https://www.youtube.com/c/CanadianBitcoiners) The NHL 94 Podcast (https://www.youtube.com/@NHL94Podcast) Two Whites and a Blue (https://www.youtube.com/@twowhitesandabluepodcast2788) Bitcoin and Barbells (https://www.youtube.com/@JoeyBBandBTC)

The Canadian Bitcoiners podcast is just two guys and maybe a guest or two discussing Bitcoin, Bitcoin equities, and the related macroeconomic space. It's not meant to be financial advice, so please, if you're doing any investing, after listening to our program, do your own research, do your own due diligence, and understand that any money you invest can be lost. The show is meant for entertainment purposes only, and we hope you enjoy the program. Friends and enemies, welcome back to a very early morning Saturday rip here at 10 a.m. East Coast time. Just having a coffee. I've already walked the dog. I've worked out. And for me anyway, typical Saturday fashion, I'm back in my Lululemon leisure wear from the waist down, which you will not be seeing.

My guest today, the one and the only QTR, Chris Irons, is here. First, though, the sponsors. We got two. ECDNS. You guys know Mark. You love Mark. Big friend of the show. The Friendly Neighborhood Domain Registrar.

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doesn't happen to you. And then of course, too, if you want, if you really want to get off some of your Bitcoin, I don't know why you'd want to do that. You can pay your bills, man. Phone bill, electric bill, mortgage, university tuition, anything anything basically anything except street side pharmaceuticals uh you can pick up um through the bills the bills portal of bitcoin so go there i want bitcoin.ca or use the promo code it'll be in the description so i'm going to bring on qtr here chris irons now chris first of all i want to welcome you to the show this is an interesting what is up what are you lying? I'm just chilling in bed. Yeah. That's great. I love it. I love it. So it's good to see you. Well, it's Saturday morning.

It's Saturday morning. I govern the amount of effort I put into doing guest appearances. No offense to you or to Peter, who I was on his thing the other day, you know, but at the end of the day, I don't want to be Mr. Podcast guest. That's not, you know, I know everybody's begging for their, like,

you know, their, their two, uh, 15 minutes of fame. I just don't care that much. Okay. So it was like,

it's Saturday. I'm fucking taking the interview from bed. I don't care. You said on Pete show that the re that you thought everyone was begging you to come on their podcast because we wanted to show you off. I'm going to tell you why people want you on your show. In the thing you wrote, Why I Bitcoin, you talk about a lot of the stuff you read and listened to and watched as part of your 15 hours. I would guess a lot more.

Stuff to help get you over the hump. Chris, we want you to be the guy that helps get other people over the hump later on, buddy. That's what we want. We want you to be part of that helps get other people over the hump later on buddy that's what we want i don't want you to be part of the content thing why not i don't because first off i'm fucking lazy okay that's the first reason i've my days of advocating for things are over that's you know i gave a name to my apathy in like 2008 and it was called libertarianism when i first started listening to ron paul i was like wow this exactly like me. I don't give a shit what anybody does as long as everybody leaves me alone. And I remember like, that was a profound realization. I was like, there's a political party

out there for that. That's what I'm in, whatever it is. It also happened to be the party where, you know, they abide by the constitution and Ron Paul happened to be the candidate in that race, who was the only one telling the truth. So that was those were nice added bonuses. You know, the fact that he had an untarnished voting record for going dating back like 40 years and he had been married to the same woman for 40 years and involved with the same church for 40 years it's like all right well happen to pick a you know a stance that is rooted in integrity and a uh somebody that's advocating for it you know some an example of it i still think ron paul is like one of the last great american heroes and uh so what's the point?

The point is I don't want to be convincing people of anything. And it's not just Bitcoin. It's about where to live. It's about what to invest in. It's about what political party they should be involved with. I just don't care. I know how I get down. I know what's important to me.

And that's what I focus on because I'm 41. I'm not going to be around too much longer. I'm just focused on my shit. You young fucks like you, man. I'm okay. I'm not that much. I'm 37. We're not that far apart.

Oh, are you? Yeah, we're close. You look like you're about 13. Well, the important thing is good woman, lots of water, and lots of sleep. Now, Chris, the reason I said that I think you're going to help people get over and brought up some of the stuff that you- Well, you're not doing the interview from bed this morning is what I'm trying to say. I'm not doing it from bed, but I know a guy who I feel like Grandpa Joe and Willy Wonka.

You know, you did crap. It's a crap. I got a surprise for you this morning. I'm sorry. There's a guy. There's a guy that helped you get over the hump and a guy i happen to have the contact info for and i invited him to sit with us this morning oh yeah what's up dude chris i'm sitting here in my fucking workout clothes i just did a crossfit workout and i didn't have time to shower

joey i didn't do shit today so you're going to you're going to bjj later or no i'm actually you know me and you were friends obviously off the air so i you know no i work out like six or seven days a week usually and uh i'm i'm in new jersey today and i had an opportunity to just take a couple of days and take the weekend and just eat and do nothing and i decided like it would really be good to give my body a rest for three i beat the fuck out of my body. I mean, I run like 30,

40 miles a week and then I train and whatever. And so, um, I'm taking, giving myself a three day little vacation here. I had cheese. It's for breakfast. I like it.

I like it. Okay. So Larry, Chris has mentioned you a bunch of times, uh, in the, in the spots he's done with Pete, the stuff he writes on French finance,

which everyone should be reading. Talk to me a bit. The two of you guys, how did you, how did you get them over the hump? Larry? Cause Pete, the stuff he writes on French finance, which everyone should be reading. Talk to me a bit, the two of you guys, how did you, how did you get them over the hump Larry? Cause I'll tell you, we reached out to Chris on this show about two years ago to do the bear cave episodes.

We wanted to find people who we thought were competent, had a lot in common with us, but couldn't figure out the Bitcoin thing for whatever reason. We had Doonberg, Mike green, and then no one else wanted to do it. And Chris was the guy we wanted to have on. We couldn't schedule it. And now here you are on this air as a guy who's wearing the

orange shirt now. So how did you get him over the hump? What was the thing that did it? And Chris, talk to me a little bit about your coming around on this. I don't think any great credit. But a couple of things I'll just say. Chris is super, super smart and he's super open-minded and he's humble and i think that's actually one of the more um necessary traits to understand bitcoin i think that's why peter schiff and who i like you know but um you know mike green and some of these other guys can't get there because they've just got so much of their ego tied up in the way they view the world and one thing you read when you read chris's blog i love the way it is

hey look i'm just a dummy this is just my my view. I could be wrong. I've been wrong plenty of times. And I think, you know, he's got an intellectual honesty and curiosity that led me to believe he was searching for the truth. So, you know, it's funny when Chris and I first met, I heard his podcast. I loved him. I was like, God, this guy's a fucking genius. I feel like he's my brother. I got to get on this podcast what i said hey man we have me on your podcast like hell who the hell are you and eventually but eventually i got to follow me on twitter realize hey we were kind of similar minded and so we got to be friends but and i always just kind of knew he would come around just as i actually think these other guys will i mean i did an hour and a half with chris and pete

schiff and you know i don't remember if you remember it because there are parts of that conversation where i thought peter was kind of conceding a few points and you know, I don't know if you remember it, Chris, but there are parts of that conversation where I thought Peter was kind of conceding a few points. And, you know, it wouldn't even surprise me if some of these guys who say that. I mean, I think part of his gold stick is a marketing thing for his gold business. And, you know, a lot of people follow him as a result of that. And so I wouldn't even be surprised. I mean, I know guys who are really anti Bitcoin, but they're now starting to get the FOMO. And it's kind of like, like I was with some fellows last night

and they're kind of like, gee, you know, maybe I ought to have a little bit of this, you know? And so it was pretty straightforward. And I will also say it was a process. It wasn't, you know, I think Chris went from,

you know, I don't believe it. And, you know, to be fair, there was a lot of noise and bullshit in this space, which sent people away from it. I mean, Sam Bankman freed and shit coins did more damage to Bitcoin than anybody can imagine. I mean, when I talk to the average finance normie, that's right where they go. This thing is full of fraud. I'm not touching it, you know, and, and as we all know, there is some, there's is full of fraud i'm not touching it you know and um and as we all know there is some there's a lot of fraud in crypto but bitcoin's not crypto so you got to

make the distinction right so i don't know what you know what convinced you i mean i i kept coming at it with different i was listening to your – I was out for a run. I don't know. Maybe it's just right time, right place. I was out for a run. I was running up Mont-Royal in Montreal. I heard your Palisades Gold Radio thing from December 2022, which the Fed is mathematically assured to pivot, I think it's called.

I just listened to the way that you described it then. And I just had a, I just had a, like, not an epiphany, but I had a, I wrapped my head around it in a way that I hadn't before. And it was just your analogs to the internet. And, you know, like I said, on Peter's show, I have a little background in computers. I was a computer science major for, you know, half a semester before I decided I was going to focus my efforts mostly on drinking beer in computers. I was a computer science major for a, you know, half a semester before I

decided I was going to focus my efforts mostly on drinking beer in college. And, uh, so I got it a little bit, but it was those analogs that you drew to the internet and maybe just kind of think, you know, it just felt like there was something else out there. I listened to you talk about it. I listened to Lynn Alden. I listened to Luke Groman talk about it. I listen to James Lavish. I listen to all these people that I know are smarter than me because I listen to their takes on macro and they make a lot of sense. And so it was just foolish for me to continue kind of just avoiding looking into it further. You know, it's like I said to Joey, you know, I'm just lazy sometimes. And I think that was part of it.

I had to be ready. You know, I said on Peter's show a couple of days ago, you know, guys like Max Kaiser turned me off to it immensely, immensely. When I watched him versus Schiff, and, you know, we can talk about Schiff. Schiff's a guy that I respect. I think he's a genius. I think he is. I think his understanding of the founding principles of the country and the history of the United States is unmatched. I think it is on a savant level. And I think he is a great reference point for libertarians when it comes to government and you know the the way that taxation is supposed to work and the way that the government works and so i have immense respect for him and i've been friends with him for years and while we've had you know a dust up here or there um

when he sat down with kaiser i was thinking to myself hey you know this and i approach everything with an open mind i was thinking to myself all right, you know, this and I approach everything with an open mind. I was thinking to myself, all right, like, who's going to make the point here? These two are the heads of their states for their respective arguments. So somebody is going to have to hash out some type of argument that makes more sense than the other one. And what I saw was Max Kaiser acting like an absolute maniac. And as a short seller, and somebody that looks to cults and, you know, unsophisticated retail to guide the way to companies that are often over levered, have terrible business models, are outright scams, are cash burning entities. I saw a microcosm of that in Max in the way that he was acting. Like I said, on Peter's show, I respect Max. I give him the utmost credit for being an advocate for it and going full maximalist and being early and making himself a shitload of money for it.

But in my opinion, there's no amount of money that anybody can make that justifies acting like a fucking lunatic. And that's just my opinion. Some people think because you got a trillion dollars you can boss boss around your waitress you know i'm not one of those people to me it doesn't matter whether i have 10 cents in my bank account or 10 billion dollars i'm going to treat people the same way i'm going to try to act relatively close to the same way and uh and so his behavior in that debate where he got up and started screaming and shouting and panting and fucking throwing papers and screaming in Peter Schiff's face while Peter Schiff is sitting there, you know, ostensibly trying to have a legitimate discussion and get the facts out there. You know, but it was a Bitcoin conference and people were hooting and hollering for Max.

And I was just like, this is a fucking circus. He's a fucking clown show you know and so you know sucks for me that i didn't do the research then because you know i'd be up 50x or whatever but that is what it is um you know i'm glad that i turned my attention back to it when i did just to your other point about you know peter's uh gold shtick being a shtick you know peter owns p Peter has a gold company because of how he feels about monetary policy. It's not the other way around. He didn't, Peter didn't start a, Peter didn't start a gold company and then become an Austrian economist. Peter Schiff is an Austrian economist and a libertarian first. And that's why he started

a gold company. Peter truly believes the dollar is in full collapse and the U.S. is heading for a massive sovereign debt crisis. I mean, I've read everything he's written and I've met him in person enough and I've sat down and listened to him talk after multiple Manhattans enough to know that he is through and through the guy that he comes off as. And I think he genuinely believes that Bitcoin is worthless. He reminds me, I was talking to Larry about this. He reminds me of Saylor a lot in some ways. Obviously, they don't agree on Bitcoin. Putting that aside, listening to 30 hours or 40 hours of Sayor over the last two, three weeks and knowing Peter Schiff, they both come off as wholeheartedly 105% convicted that they're right. And they both have this tick where it feels like they both have an incessant need plaguing at them for other people

to see things the way that they see it. I don't mean it in a bad way. I don't mean they're forcing their views on people, but just that it just makes so much sense to them. Bitcoin makes so much sense to Saylor. Gold makes so much sense to Peter. They both probably agree on 99 out of 100 things when it comes to the state of the global economy and the worthlessness of fiat currency. But they both have... Peter Schiff has called me on a Saturday at 11 PM to argue with me about a tweet that I put out about,

you know, Zelensky wearing a suit in front of Congress. And I'm like, dude, you're worth like what, you know, like a hundred million dollars or something like, what the fuck are you calling me for?

Like I'm at a family barbecue, you know, like it's Saturday, you know? And that's just the kind of dude he is. He really does believe what he is saying. And I think they're both people of integrity. And I think there's a spot for both.

So I don't think the gold thing is a shtick. Does it inhibit his, does it inhibit his, you know, Bitcoin requires just a little bit of a leap of faith too and so does it inhibit his ability to perhaps try to take that leap of faith because there is risk and we can talk about all this stuff but uh maybe maybe but i think uh yeah i don't know i don't think he's i don't think he's keeping them up at night. I think he really does. I mean, you guys are both gold guys, and I'm Italian, so I'm kind of a gold guy, sort of. But the thing I would just ask you guys is, what do you think the gap is for a lot of the guys who are gold but not Bitcoin?

You guys are both gold and Bitcoin. think that's a five thousand and a half gold has 5 000 more years of history to back it up so let's just start with that if you're looking you know sailor always talks about bitcoin's the bedrock you know it's it's new york city before they started building on it it's the land it's the tectonic plates you know well under that is gold you know like at the end of the day do i still believe that gold is the uh that gold is the end all be all even after bitcoin yes i think there will be a spot for both of them i don't think gold is going to go to zero or lose its value or not be money. You just don't shift the gears and change 5,000 years of gold's track record as a store of value. There's a reason central banks hold gold, because it's as close as we can get to the end all be all. And so I forgot what the question was. Larry, say something. Well, look, I mean, I think there's a lot of debate about how fast Bitcoin will take share from gold and how much share.

And I mean, the way I think I look at it is that Bitcoin is I like Paul Tudor Jones, who says Bitcoin is the fastest horse in the monetary debasement race. But there really are two horses and gold is one of the horse, one horse. And I call gold analog sound money. I call Bitcoin digital sound money. Yeah. And Bitcoin's a faster horse because it's got two things going for it. I mean, the one thing that drives both of these investments is just the fact that the government's in deep shit. And as Chris said, we're going to have a sovereign debt crisis. And, you know, the dollar's value relative to stuff is going down because they can't stop printing it.

So that's the overlying macro theme that we're all playing, gold guys and Bitcoin guys. So in some ways, we've got the same macro bet. The difference is that Bitcoin is also going through an adoption cycle, which Chris alluded to earlier, reminds me very much of the Internet, where it feels to me like we're kind of at roughly that 10% tipping point, you know, Malcolm Gladwell's book. And if you see, if you look at that tipping point in, you know, cars, TVs, radios, cell phones,

you know, whatever, computers, when you get to that 10% tipping point, the adoption really often accelerates and kind of goes hard for a while until it becomes pretty ubiquitous. And so I feel like Bitcoin is at or turning that 10% corner. And therefore, you know, it's likely to run harder than gold, but that doesn't make gold worthless. As Chris points out, you know, 8 billion people, I mean, you can walk into almost any country in this world with a gold coin and people know it's money. You know, good luck, you know, with your lightning wallet trying to send somebody some sats.

I mean, you know, look, a lot of people will will accept them but not eight billion and so so they'll coexist you know they're they're both um they're both on the on the same team in my view team sound money uh and they'll coexist and and they should be they should be kind and friendly to each other i mean i hate the bitcoiners who's like you know gold's the enemy no it's not fiat's the enemy i know, gold's the enemy. No, it's not. Fiat's the enemy. I mean, the government's the enemy. And that's the kind of shit that turned me right off. Like I knew Alex Mashinsky was a fucking fraud from day one, but putting that aside, when I listened to him debate Peter Schiff and he said things like, you know,

Bitcoin has a yield and gold has no value. That was an exact quote from him. Like, what the fuck is wrong with these people? Gold has no value. Like, you know what I him. What the fuck is wrong with these people? Gold has no value? You know what I mean? If you want to be a fraudster, at least have some fucking finesse.

That'd be like me coming out and telling you the Atlantic Ocean is made out of lava. It's just something you say and immediately you know that this person is somewhere else, that they're rooted in some type of other reality. I think that kind of stuff

does such a disservice right it really did at least yeah and and they're gold guys who you know understandably are very turned off by all that stuff i mean gold people are pretty conservative they're generally libertarian you know and then and they see all this shiny new stuff and they hear all this fraudulent shit and and their their antennae go up and rightly so i mean the way i got through it because i my antenna went up originally but the way i got through it was when and i think it was sailor that helped me to see this and others but was the notion that this thing really is an invention of digital scarcity and when i kind of understood that

that you know humankind had finally invented a form of digital scarcity that was immutable and um had never really been invented before we've never had anything in the world there's never been a commodity with a fixed supply before ever you know even gold grows at 1.6 a year in terms of supply and if gold you know go ahead chris but that in and of itself isn't what gives it value because if you can create if you create digital scarcity bitcoin you can fork it off and make a million different things so it's that and it's the fact that the network has the way the way that the network works but the fact that it's grown, it is almost a, it is almost a too big to fail type of thesis, which is something I had danced around a little bit in the past.

You know, I had asked Peter, when I did that podcast, what am I buying? When I buy Bitcoin, you got to be able to explain it to somebody in one sentence. And we were tossing around ideas and nobody was really able to come up with something. But somebody wrote in this morning or yesterday when I was reading the comments, you know, you're just exchanging one currency for another. And that, that to me is a good, simple one line description of what you're doing when you buy Bitcoin. You're, you're, you're, it's an exchange rate. It's an exchange rate between the dollar and between the first widely adopted digital money that has ever existed and uh and it will continue to be prominent if people want to continue to use it and so to your point before the fact that we're still early

in adoption you know comparative to the internet this would be we would be using a 9600 baud modem here like that's how early we are uh because you have all the layers and all this other bullshit but uh the fact that the adoption is so early on doesn't doesn't uh doesn't leave me any questions about whether or not the adoption is going to continue. The wind is at its back now. When you have Franklin Templeton out there and iShares doing your bidding for you, the war has kind of already won. You've kind of won with the regulators. You've kind of won with Wall Street already.

It's still on day one of 1,000 in, of a thousand in terms of adoption for Wall Street. And there's a lot of fucking money out there. You know, there's a lot of money out there. And so, you know, another podcast I was listening to yesterday said it may not be around for 50 years or 100 years or 200 years. But, you know, for as long as it lasts, you know, you're going to want to be involved. And that's what I'm thinking. Like, wow. All right. Like, we've been off the gold standard for only 50 years.

So, you know, look at what's happened to the dollar since then. And how much longer is the dollar like, wow. All right. Like we've been off the gold standard for only 50 years. So, you know, look at what's happened to the dollar since then. And how much longer is the dollar going to, you know, does it, do you need to come to peace with the fact that it's going to be around forever or for a thousand years? Peter said, one of the questions you're still thinking about is durability. I listen to sailors say all the time, it'll be here for a thousand years. I don't know. It's a bit much you know i

guess it's a bit for a 13 year old brand new digital asset that can pretty closely be replicated by something else but would i be far more confident in saying it's going to be here for five to ten years at least absolutely i think it's just getting started and so thinking like paul tudor jones you want to be riding that horse when it comes out of the gate like i do i think it's just getting started and so thinking like paul tudor jones you want to be riding that horse when it comes out of the gate like i do i think it's still you know we haven't even run the first quarter mile yet yeah what are the other concerns you have i mean you can answer this too larry you're you're i think still somewhat wet behind the ears right compared to some of these 14 13 12 ogs uh what are the concerns you guys have about this thing i mean when i when

i think about it actually i was out for dinner with a couple of my good friends yesterday, and it's the same story all the time. I can't buy anything with it. And to me, that speaks more about maybe your fiat situation. You need to have some liquid cash, maybe more than other people do. Or you can't guarantee that the government's not going to take action against it. And you see that kind of in the mining and the sort of centralized nature of the industrial publicly listed miners right now, especially in the United States where you guys are.

What other concerns should people have? And do you guys have about this thing? What should people be looking out for in terms of like, this is a red flag, something we have to take action on ASAP? You want me to go first? So first of all, I was buying some in 2013 or 14. So I've had some for a long time. And but I, you know, but to be honest with you, my concern

was always the technology. And if you actually go back and you look at, I was meeting with some of the core developers at MIT back then. And you listen to them, and they were concerned too. And you had these block size wars wars and you had Segwit. There were a lot of things that have improved it over its 15 year life. There was a time when it really was somewhat vulnerable.

It could have been 51% attack, the government could have shut it down. There are a lot of things. As Chris pointed out, I think we're beyond that now. What I watch in terms... I watch the adoption metric, which is our dogs eating the food. I mean, you know, it's money because people think it's money and it's money because more people think it's money this year than last year. And if ever, if that were ever to change, you know, the number of addresses were to go down or the hash power were to go down or the number of transactions, the transaction average size was to go down. I mean, if ever, if suddenly people just became bored with Bitcoin, like, oh yeah, who cares if the number of use cases were to go down,

anything that caused human beings to say, I don't give a shit about this thing anymore, or if a better thing were to come along, that would concern me. But, but I don't, I don't see any evidence of any of that stuff. And of course there's always the you know the catastrophic technical glitch but at 800 000 plus blocks you know um you know in 15 years and no problems you know i don't i don't foresee that as being a likelihood i've got that down in the very very very small percentage category so those are the two things that i kind of worry about and watch and um i don't know, what about you, Chris? How do you see it? Well, obviously, the loss of adoption is a huge deal. But it's where we are now. And I think with the momentum behind it, and the number of nodes growing and the hash rate growing, and, you know, it would really be it would it would be like turning around an oil tanker, you know, you don't

really just pop a 180 real quick, you would start to see the trends fall off a little bit. So I do think Bitcoin is a if the people want it, it'll happen story. And converse to that, I think if the people don't want it, it won't happen. I think it will fall out of favor. But I think that there's so many people that haven't realized what its benefits are. And so many people still don't know what it is at all um that i think we're a long way from that i think it will hit uh there will be a lot more adoption i think before adoption slows however if adoption slowed that would be an enormous uh red flag that would be something that uh would definitely get me out

and i think at a point like that you would see a move from Bitcoin to gold that would just rip faces off. The other thing that worries me is the, you know, quantum computing and SHA-256 thing. And so what you're, you know, obviously SHA-256 is the standard. It's been the standard forever. It's, you know, pretty much unbreakable. You know, and with all of the ASIC silicon, you know, the Bitcoin network is extraordinarily powerful. But, you know, if a chip comes along, that's like, you know, putting 10,000 ASICs into one fucking piece of silicon. And then you mint 10,000 of those. Then all of a sudden you could have a really big problem. However, there's there's two you know counter arguments to that one is uh you know sailor's kind of argument hey we'll

get to that problem we'll deal with the problem when we get to it and you know if somebody were to achieve that type of quantum computing power that they would have much bigger fish to fry than hacking the bitcoin network both of those kind of make sense. The second thing is that as adoption continues, as you're seeing now with MicroStrategy, who's turning into a Bitcoin development company, as the network grows, and people are incentivized to protect it. And so, you know, I think if you see one of these Middle Eastern countries come out and put, you know, $50 billion worth of Bitcoin on their balance sheet, they're going to have a vested interest in protecting the protocol in making sure that, you know, nobody is. And so as that prophecy kind of continues, what you hope for is you hope that Bitcoin has and Bitcoin and their developers and people that are on the network

and people that own Bitcoin have a seat at the table that's at the forefront of computing one way or another so that when we make breakthroughs in computing that the network adapts quickly. And the good thing about that is, you know, you got a bunch of fucking dorks, like, stoked on Bitcoin. Like, a bunch of fucking computer nerds. Like, exactly the people, you know, you got a bunch of fucking dorks like stoked on Bitcoin, like a bunch of fucking computer nerds, like exactly the people, you know, no offense. I'm saying that obviously is a term of affection, but you got the right people, you know, you got hackers and fucking guys that sit in their basement with acne.

And, you know, you have the video gamers and and the people that you want on your side if it's going to come down to cyber warfare. So the only question is, could somebody kind of edge out on that forefront of what we're doing at the margin line there? Could somebody edge out and make a huge leap in quantum computing where the Bitcoin network couldn't very quickly adopt or there couldn't be some way to kind of adapt to that. This is the same argument that Michael Shermer makes about UFOs and new propulsion technology, whether or not, you know, the U.S. has some crazy way to change the laws of propulsion for aircraft and whether they're bending gravity with things instead of using, you know, traditional propulsion, traditional like jet propulsion. And this is the discussion like in the UFO community. And one of the things that Shermer says is that, you know, China, Russia, the US, the major countries all throughout history have, for the most part,

been just a couple weeks or a month from each other in terms of edging each other out as to what... Nobody has made any huge leaps that some other country hasn't very quickly adopted or made themselves. And that is because everybody's know, everybody's kind of spying on everybody else. And so the quantum computing problem kind of reminds me of that in the sense that that's what you have to hope for. You have to hope that, you know, that no single person is going to make some quantum computing breakthrough in their basement. And then if they do by themselves, and nobody knows about it, are they going to want to attack the Bitcoin network first, which being digital cash, you know, that also makes some sense.

So, so those are the things that right now I would consider that and maybe like the core developers turning, right, Larry? That's something you said. Yeah, I think the core developers, I mean, it's not a quorum of core developers that went rogue. I mean, I think the odds of all these things are quite low, but're not zero you have to consider the possibility of everything happening in the world i mean you know an emt thing knocks out power in the internet for a long period of time obviously be bad i mean u.s government deciding to you know find it ban it put people in jail if they use it i mean it'll survive because it's worldwide and no one government can kill it but they can throw sand in our face i mean, it'll survive because it's worldwide and no one government can kill it, but they can throw

sand in our face. I mean, there's stuff that can happen that's not great. And they could start mining asteroids for gold, too. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we can't even track an asteroid yet, much less think about how to get mining equipment out and pull the gold out. There's a lot of silly stuff.

My investment time window is kind of five to ten years. The quantum thing does bother me. I've just been hacked recently. I've been talking to some computer people. It's really amazing what they're doing in terms of how quickly AI can sort through passwords and so forth. Security is going to be a big issue for the rest of our lives you know in all this digital stuff so but you know it look it's to me to me it's the most asymmetric bet out there right now and that's why i'm a proponent of it and

i think that the government is you know also totally out of control um which is why i'm a proponent of gold and so you kind of add those two things together and you know i mean i don't you know has there ever been a chance for the average guy to front run Wall Street the way these ETFs have given us that chance? I mean, you know, this just kind of doesn't exist. This is like getting to buy Microsoft in 84, which I did, or 85 when it came public at 14 times trailing. It was growing 40% a year. You know, I mean, and we all know what happened there. I mean, you know, the thing's going up forever, Laura. I mean, it just, it just is. And I, you know, I can,

I mean, I, I have, I mean, there was a time when I thought, well, these will make a hundred thousand easily and maybe it'll make a million. Now I think a hundred thousand probably happened this year. And I think a million is within a couple of years and, and, and it just goes from there. I mean, it's, um, so if you don't have some of it, you know, you're really, you know, it's kind of like, what are you doing as an investor? What are you doing? I mean, you've got the best performing financial asset last 15 years. You know, you can't afford to risk one or 2% of your assets on that. Yeah. Isn't it true, Larry, that like, and Chris, I want you to take on this too, because you wrote about this a little bit.

One of the things I've talked about on this show over the years is that i think we've crossed a bit of a rubicon because of the awareness that just the average like twitter user has about the money printer go brr there's nobody in modern society that hasn't seen that anime printer thing running didn't see it during covid didn't see it during uh you know the the last round of uh whether it's svb or buy the fucking paper like you say larry or whatever you know new program these guys have to give money away to their buddies uh and kind of throw dirt in the face of the average person at this point because of that awareness don't you guys think that it's true that any action direct enough to bitcoin to really discourage its use or its mining or holding it,

wouldn't that be more a show of fear at this point than it would an intimidation factor? And they can't. It's so obvious that they know that they can't stop it. And so it's kind of funny watching them crow about it. He had the SEC approve the ETFs, and the next week Elizabeth Warren is saying we need to shut it down, and Jamie Dimon is saying the same thing. It's like, what are you doing? Gary Gensler is tacitly endorsing it with the left hand, even though he went on CNBC and talked a lot of shit about it, while these other people are saying it's the worst thing that's ever happened on the left hand even though he went on cnbc and talked a lot of about it

while these other people are saying it's the worst thing that's ever happened on the right hand it's like all right well you know i'm i'm encouraged by the fact that wall street is getting fees off it now because now they have an interest in defending it exactly and so exactly you know and i think they know i think once you understand it the idea of banning it is fruitless. And so they'll KYC the shit out of it. They'll do all the KYC AML stuff. I just got to notice before I logged on one of my accounts. Update your shit.

I get one every day, I feel like. I get these things from the banks. Like, what do you do for a living? Where do you reside? Please update your shit i get one every day i feel like i get i get these things from the banks like what do you do for a living where do you where do you reside please update your address information they'll go down that route where like you know you have all that shit and they're gonna want your addresses and stuff but like and they'll tax it but like what the fuck is that gonna mean when at 20 x's who cares you know like go ahead tax it yeah i bought it i was first in line i fucking you know it was legit i bought it with funds that i got from being employed and i pay my taxes every year what are you gonna do they can't

they can't turn it off you know it's not a nintendo they can't fucking like you know pull the plug like timmy you're not playing with the fucking bitcoin anymore you know so that's anymore like like like gamestop or amc right can't, they can't change the rules in the middle of the game. I mean, Chris did a really great line post on a sub stack recently where he talked about how, you know, this is what all those guys who are doing, you know, GameStop. I mean, this is, this is the attack vector, right? Use this thing. You want to take the system down? Yeah. Use this thing. Right. Okay. So safety in in numbers it's the technological you know

it's the technological like braille for the saying there's safety in numbers because like i said on peter's show you get 10 million of these absolute fucking wall street bets pissed off at the world maniacs that watch the system go down in flames one way or the other either will hyper inflate or will have a deflationary depression you can pick whatever one you'd like um it will be televised now of course with the internet and so it's going to make occupy wall street uh look like a fairy tale when that happens you're gonna have all the occupy people all the fucking marxist idiots all the dirty hippies that fucking were living in tents out in uh what's it called zucchini park out there zuccotti park uh you know and all the guys like me and larry still walking around with our

ron paul for president 2008 signs all joined together and joined the network and it's not gonna matter that you're a dirty disgusting hippie what's going to matter is that you're fucking in and that makes 20 million people and 20 million people expands the network by you know a factor of whatever and that adds to the security by a factor of whatever and that adds to the redundancy by a factor of whatever so you bring more people on board know, and there will be there will be a point of critical mass where, you know, if people say we're going to we're going to turn it off or we're going to ban wallets or make them illegal, you're going to wind up like Emmanuel Macron in France, who is having the glamorous Elysee Palace showered with horse shit by these farmers that have driven their tractors out to the fucking government buildings to remind him with a manure sprayer that there are far more of them than there are of him and so you know bitcoin represents this this chance to not completely balance but this chance to give some power back to the people at a time,

but really, and I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old. I feel like the power grab, the authoritarian power grab, you know, with COVID, with the government, with the online censorship now has just gotten out of control. And I think that's why Trump is leading in the polls and Polyev is leading in the polls. You know, it's not because, you know, I mean, it helps that Joe Biden can't hear the dinner bell and doesn't know what day of the week it is like that. That certainly that helps. But but like, look at Trudeau and look at Polyev, right? Polyev is obviously a genius. He is polling way higher than Justin Trudeau. And look, you know, I spent a lot of time in Montreal. I know what the ethos is. And, you know, and I spent some time in Toronto. I know what the ethos is in these big Canadian cities. Montreal makes, you know, liberal New York cities

look like the deep South. And the fact that Pierre Palliev is actually putting up some numbers there is fascinating. And so, you know, I think people are just sick of it. And so all we need to do, and by we, I mean I'm not doing anything. I have a tattoo appointment and then I'm going out for a beer. But all that needs to happen is that we need to direct the attention. Again, this is the royal we. Direct the attention to those pissed off people who are going to feel the brunt of inflation

and understand they're getting fucked one way or another, but may not be able to describe it. All you got to do is just point them this way. It's all right, well, here's an answer. Here's how it protects your wealth. You go out, you clean toilets every day, and you want to preserve that answer. Here's how it protects your wealth. You know, you go out, you clean toilets every day and you want to preserve that wealth. Here's the way to do it. And here is the ideological shoehorn and the ethical shoehorn with which you can kind of flip a little bit of a transfer of power back towards the people. And if they see Bitcoin in that light, then you could see some serious shit.

You know, it's not going away unless the people decide they want it to go away. End of story. And Joey, as you pointed out that that money printer goes, Burmese has really penetrated the world. I mean, I have a lot of normie friends and my social circle and my community and

everything else. And I mean, you know, five years ago, if i kind of said hey the money's getting debased blah blah i mean nobody gave a shit absolutely no you know and and today it's just it's stunning it's absolutely stunning how it's on everybody's mind everybody and so and this is how hyperinflations or severe inflations which

then ultimately lead to hyperinflation this is is how they occur. They occur because a quorum of the people come to the conclusion that the money is no good. And it's called Gresham's Law. And, you know, they begin to figure out, okay, if the money is no good, that means I have to swap this currency for a better currency. You know, gold's a choice, Bitcoin's a choice, silver's a choice, real estate for some people's a choice, whatever. But that swap is getting to be more and more important and more and more urgent.

And I've observed in my social circle, many of whom think I'm crazy and I was always the crazy gold guy, are now kind of listening. They're aware that printer goes burr, they've seen COVID, they've seen PPP, they've seen BTFP. They've seen all the shit. And they see the dysfunction in Washington, D.C. They see the deficits. They see the senile president, et cetera, et cetera. And and they're you know, they're asking themselves, well, shit, what the hell can I do? You know, how do I fight back? And, you know, sound money is the solution. I mean, the problem, what's wrong, I mean, this isn't a blue-red issue. This is a sound money, non-sound money issue. That's really the, you know, to me, that's where the battle line should be drawn.

Is it interesting to you guys? We'll get you out of here on this because it is a Saturday and I appreciate it. I do have to run pretty soon. So let's wrap up on this question. You guys have mentioned, and Chris, the reason I titled this, you know, Bitcoin and our Bullshit Economy is because you black out once every so often on your podcast and just rip for an hour, rolling downhill on all the things that are pissing you off. It's a good way to describe it. Yeah, well, I mean, what else can I say?

Now I know you do it in bed, which makes it even better. And I would just, I'm curious, like, what do you guys think is going to be the thing to push people, the normie, over the edge into Bitcoin? We've talked about all these things. I know for me, some of the things I think about sometimes as a millennial, I got a lot of friends who are a couple of years younger than me who, as you mentioned there, Larry, gold's a choice, equities are a choice, real estate's a choice. Those aren't choices for people anymore, man. You can't buy a house to protect your wealth. Equities don't go up fast enough to hedge against inflation. You may as well just spend the money. We've seen this kind of doom loop spending. You see it in credit card deficits and stuff like that

and the Fred numbers and other data from around the world. To me, Bitcoin is the obvious thing here. Take your five bucks or 10 bucks every week if that's what you got, park it here and start to change the way you think and see what you can do with this thing over the course of five years or 10 years or a cycle, a halving cycle, let's say. What do you guys think is going to push people to that? I would say, first off, just to that, I would say that I don't necessarily agree that it's the only thing. I would say diversify, and that's what I do. I would say diversify away from the dollar. And so I buy foreign equities and any type of hard asset or solid money, Bitcoin included, but not limited to Bitcoin

because there is a disproportionate amount of risk with Bitcoin that there isn't with the stock market or that there isn't with real estate. And those things do go up in an inflationary environment. They just don't go up enough in real terms. But if you want to pick stocks instead of throwing your money into an index, you might be able to outperform. I think the thing that I wrote about this, this is that article I wrote a couple

of days ago called The Catalyst that Could Standardize Bitcoin. I'm trying to answer the exact question that you're asking. What is it going to take? And I think the next financial crisis, which it doesn't have to be a 2008 where the system is on the verge of collapse and there's a bailout. It could just be inflation running out of control. You know, inflation going back up to four or 5% and the Fed not being able to stop it, that'll catalyze some people to get pissed off. I mean, that'll be a huge deal. So that next big point in history, whatever it is, where the people decide they've had enough with wall street you know this happens every 20 years or 15 years or 25 years that next point where people get

angry um bitcoin will be there and i think that is gonna have a lot of people looking at it for the first time and looking at it in ways that they haven't before yeah joey i gotta run here literally in two minutes but i think that that's right. I think the answer is, something's going to break, the government's going to respond and react to that break, that response is going to be to print more money. And this time people get it. They know they know what happens when you print more money, right? You get serious inflation and gasoline goes from $2 to $4. And they're gonna it's, you know, they're like, Oh, I get it. I've seen this movie before it just happened with yelp and so so every you know when you when they see this pattern repeating and repeating and getting larger and larger and happening more often and

more often it's just you know they're going to be driven into the camp into the sound money camp and um and they didn't know that in 2008 larry you know when they protested against the bailouts they were protesting against the disproportionate allocation of their capital. The unfairness of it all, right. Yeah, they were protesting the socialized losses and the privatized profits. Now they have a brand new fresh memory of how badly inflation robs them of everything they work for. And that will be on the forefront of their mind. So it's just the cumulative hurts and they, and they're coming faster and harder.

And you know, it's, it's like a frog being boiled, you know, the water's getting really damn warm. The frog's just like, get me the hell out of here. So,

yeah. So it'll really drive me to think guys, I really got to run. I made a commitment to my wife. So I'll let you guys continue. Yeah. Have a good one. Thanks Larry.

Good surprise, man. Good to see you. I, I'm glad he came i i'm gonna get you out of here too chris on on on this here what is it in your view that the gold bugs are just not getting about bitcoin what is it you said a little bit about the history they don't know well i think you know look i think there's a fair amount of people that don't understand how it works there's a fair amount of people that don't understand how it works.

There's a fair amount of people that are scared of it because it's digital. It's very different than gold. You know, people go to gold because their great, great, great grandfather who fought with General Custer in the Civil War fucking had gold coins and you know they inherited their collection from them in the 1920s their father did and their father passed that down to you know the silver coins that grandpa left and and it's got this big long immense storied history and it's tangible and it there's a bid for it outside of being money. It's used in electronics. It's used in jewelry. It's used in aerospace. It's used in dentistry. So there are some use cases for it and a bid for it outside of being sound money. And so it just has an immense, very safe track record. And that's why I love it too, is the fact that it is bar none,

the safest thing that I think you can buy. I think gold is probably the same, so much so that I think buying it really isn't even, it's not a bet to make money in real terms so much as it is a way to preserve your wealth. And so, you know, that is, there's a lot of people like Peter Schiff, they'll just tell you that, like, that's all you need to know. And, and if you ask me, I think gold still does usurp Bitcoin in terms of where it, you know, where it exists on the foundation of sound money. I think gold is sounder money than Bitcoin. I don't know if that'll change at some point. It would take, I think, worldwide mass adoption and governments to kind of make it the standard for their respective countries and the reserve for their respective countries. You know, when central banks start holding Bitcoin, then talk to me.

But they don't. You know, but for El Salvador. And so, you know, gold really is still the king. If you are a conservative person that wants to protect their capital, that wants something they don't have to worry about, they want something they don't have to check the price of every day, they want something they don't have to worry about 10, 20, 30% swings in over the course of two weeks or a week, those people want to own gold. So I think that that's one argument for it. And I think that understanding the network and the way that it works and the cryptography

and there's like 15 core concepts that you need to understand to even understand Bitcoin. You can't just explain it to somebody. You can't just sit down and in two minutes, you know, describe how secure SHA-256 hashing is or what it is. You know, most of the nine, 10, nine people out of 10 couldn't tell you what hashing is to begin with. I couldn't have fucking probably given you a definition of hashing a month ago that made any type of coherence sense. And I was a computer science major. And so like, you know, there's so much to understand. You don't just say, all right, well, it's just a type of currency because people have so many questions. Well, you know, it's digital. Is it secure? Is it not safe? How do of seeing it as an unstoppable, self-fulfilling prophecy that is going to bloom in some way. What that looks like, I don't know, but I'm convinced that it will, that it's going to come into its own in

some way. But I mean, if you ask me tomorrow, what's one asset I absolutely must own for the next hundred years? I'm going to tell you gold. I'm not going to tell you Bitcoin. And so I think understanding it and the risk profile, those are two really big things. Yeah, I agree with you on a lot of those things. I don't know. You know, I think you guys, you and Larry make a good point. You know, for the near term, I don't know if five or 10 is the term I would pick, but you just don't know 50 years.

Pretending you're going to know 50 years from now is sort of a fool's errand. And so I may disagree with some of the stuff you guys think about. Especially when it is the first of its kind in what is going to be a new industry, which is digital property and digital money. It's the first of its kind. And so, you know, people are going to make the Facebook argument or the MySpace argument, the Napster argument, the, you know, all of the firsts that the BlackBerry argument, all of the first that came and went and were, you know, eventually improved upon. The nice thing about bitcoin is it can be improved upon uh while kind of maintaining the uh the sanctity of the original

code um and so that's that's a positive but yeah to say you know to say a thousand years i just think that's irresponsible you know and i think look i think sailor's a genius i have to give him a lot of credit. I really enjoy listening to him, similar to the way I enjoy listening to Peter Schiff, because I know they're coming by it honestly. And I know that they, I know that in their minds, they are proof positive that they're right. And they're just thirsty for other people to understand it in the way that they do.

If I can get inside Saylor's brain right now, I would probably have 100% of my assets in Bitcoin. I don't see it the way that he does, but it's a fascinating snapshot for me to listen to him. He does a great job with all these different analogs and all these different theoreticals and hypotheticals and the language he uses. Shift does the same thing, you know, has helped me kind of see the global economy and taxation and the U.S. monetary policy in this different light that I wouldn't normally otherwise see. And so, yeah, I forget what the question was. It was just about, you know, this whole 50,000 year time horizon, the differences. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're right.

You're right about those things. Chris, you were a great guest, man. Uh, for a guy who doesn't like to do podcasts, doesn't want to do podcasts, uh, you know, you're not too bad at it. I know you got your own podcast as well. Maybe before we go tell people where they can read you, listen to you. I gotta be honest. I've been listening to the QTR podcast for a few years. And so I do enjoy, uh, hearing your thoughts on a lot of things. I'm glad that you came around on this and tell people where they can find the other stuff you're doing. Thank you. I don't really do a ton of promotion, but my stuff is out there and you just look for QTR. You'll see it. That's it. Thanks. That article that, well, you know what

I'll hear, I'll, I'll promo something. That article, the catalyst that could standardize Thanks, everyone. podcast a couple of days ago too. And so, you know, those are probably two places if you want some more. I'm sure you can put a link in the podcast description. I will for sure. I will for sure. So if you want Chris's thoughts on Bitcoin, economics, and why that one UFO guy is a fraud, QTR, fringe finance, and the QTR podcast. Bob Lazar. That's right. We can talk about that

anytime too. Until next time everybody, take care of yourselves. Are you a fan of the old school NHL 94 game on the Genesis or SNES? Why not check out my show, the NHL 94 podcast from tournaments and tactics to the people who make up this community. Check it out wherever you listen to podcasts or find it on YouTube.