The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - The CBP - The ₿roken Ruler - Talking About MicroStrategy

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

FRIENDS AND ENEMIES Join us for some QUALITY Bitcoin and economics talk, with a Canadian focus, every Monday at 7 PM EST. From a couple of Canucks who like to talk about how Bitcoin will impact Canada. As always, none of the info is financial advice. Website: ⁠www.CanadianBitcoiners.com ⁠Discord: https://discord.com/invite/YgPJVbGCZX A part of the CBP Media Network: ⁠www.twitter.com/CBPMediaNetwork This show is sponsored by: easyDNS - ⁠⁠www.easydns.com⁠⁠ EasyDNS is the best spot for Anycast DNS, domain name registrations, web and email services. They are fast, reliable and privacy focused. You can even pay for your services with Bitcoin! Apply coupon code 'CBPMEDIA' for 50% off initial purchase Bull Bitcoin - ⁠⁠https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/cbp⁠⁠ The CBP recommends Bull Bitcoin for all your BTC needs. There's never been a quicker, simpler, way to acquire Bitcoin. Use the link above for $20 bones, and take advantage of all Bull Bitcoin has to offer. D-Central Technologies - https://d-central.tech/ Your home for all things mining! Whether you need a new unit, a unit repaired, some support with software, or you want to start your own wife-friendly home mining operation, the guys at D-Central Tech are ready to help. With industry leading knowledge and expertise, let the D-Central team help you get started mining the hardest money on Earth.

Friends and enemies, welcome to another edition of the Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. You're probably getting really sick of hearing me, but don't worry. Your wishes are going to be granted. I'm going to be joined by Joey not too long from now. I guess officially tomorrow we're going to do Axis of Easy, but somebody who we're not sick of is boomer who's joining me today boomer how are you speak for yourself i'm sure there's plenty of people out there who are plenty sick of me fuck that you're one of our biggest fans one of our biggest friends and we're happy to i'm happy to bring you back on and i'm sure joy is as well today we'll be talking about micro strategy and a few as we talked about in the past or just a few moments ago some higher level shit we're not

going to go too deep into this but hopefully at least answer some questions for people that may have them out there or put some thoughts to rest which may be floating around or some misconceptions but yeah it's gonna be fun chat and if anybody has anything they want to talk about, good or bad about MicroStrategy or any other company doing a Bitcoin strategy, the Treasury Reserve, feel free to punch in some comments here in the chat. This is live. This is fun. This is, you know, this is CBP. But before we go any further, aside from a Macho Man shirt, which I love you're wearing that, let's talk about a few sponsors. Number one, we have easy dns

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Yeah, I'm sure you buy your Bitcoin with them. You would sell with them if you had to sell for fiat currency, right? Yeah. So lots of different options with them. You could buy on-chain. You could buy with Lightning. Let's check out what the feeds are. Are you aware if the feeds are jumping up, Boomer?

I don't think so. Are they still around six or seven oh my my node is just i have to fix that gotta set it back up so it was a little bit higher and i have to check mempool i my node looks like it's all fine seven sats per v byte yeah so that's yeah that's still very cheap so buy on chain using bull bitcoin but not just simply buying or selling. You could do other things with Bull Bitcoin. Look, number one, they're non-custodial.

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you could pay your bills. Like say you have a cell phone bill or electricity bill or whatever, you could use your bill service to pay those bills with your Bitcoin. Look, the price of Bitcoin is now hovering around 96,000. Is that old?

I think old. You know what it is? Did it go back down? It was up to $98,000 or $99,000, right? I reset my router and I didn't... Yeah, it's $98,000. So that's old. I got to fix that. So there. Don't look at my block clap because I just resetted my router not too long ago and I didn't fix it. So yeah, a lot

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decentral tech offer lots of different options over there if you're looking to set up a mining operation at your home small scale large scale medium size scale whatever heck you want so you can get like these bidaxes which are very efficient very quiet you get something much more heavy duty like an s21 you could do those uh home heating solutions with mining a lot of different options over there check them out they're based in canada montreal specifically so if you're a canadian and looking to get any equipment with respect to mining there they're the people to talk to. Check them out. Decentral Tech. Boomer! What's up, buddy? I'm seeing

your Jericho-holic ninja, and now I'm thinking about Jericho back in WCW. Was it Cletus, the guy that he had as his bodyguard? The old guy who was a truck driver? I didn't see that side of the Jericho, so I can't say.

That was like right after he went to Washington to complain that he got screwed over. It's like when he was kind of feuding with Goldberg. Yeah. Yeah. He had Ralfus.

Ralfus. Ralfus. I have that shirt upstairs. There we go. There it Yeah. Yeah. I got to change. I have that shirt upstairs. There we go. There it is. Yeah. The Jericho personal security. I have that upstairs,

but Boomer you're here because we'll be talking about none of the, none other than micro strategy and let's leave things off. Of course, anything we're going to say here is not financial advice. We didn't know what the fuck we're doing, what the fuck we're talking about. anything you do it's a little bit not even a little bit anything you do listing based on what we're talking about it's all on you people make sure you do your own research because we know fuck all but with that 90s wrestling we're

all right though even with that it's not the financial advice it's not financial advice definitely not financial advice but like wrestling stuff like uh wrestling trivia you can trust us you can trust land especially yeah even financial advice like no we're just this is like just for fun it's just people talking here so uh you know what you do your own money do it do your own research first i wonder and don't trust some guy it wearing a randy man macho Man Savage t-shirt. No. Or some guy on the internet saying his name is Michael Saylor as well, too.

Like, do we trust him? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. Either way, he's saying some stuff. He's saying a lot of good stuff with respect to Bitcoin. He's saying some strange stuff with respect to Bitcoin as well.

Like it not being money. Like, I don't know. There are people using money. Using Bitcoin as as money so he's wrong on that front but either way he's doing something where a lot of people haven't done yet but it seems to be a strategy that's picking up it's buying bitcoin and adding it to the balance sheet of his company or the company that he is associated with micro strategy any thoughts like anything you want to just, before we go dive deeper? Yeah, this is something I really, I brought this up to you guys, to you and Joey,

a couple of weeks ago in a personal chat that we were in. And it's because I really think that it's, this microstrategy stuff is all over the place on Bitcoin Twitter and among Bitcoiners. You go to the meetups, people are asking about MicroStrategy. But there's a lot of stuff out there that I don't know how accurate it is.

It's just like half accurate and people are confused. And there's a lot of questions out there, but people really don't really know how to ask. So I just thought it would be good to have somebody to come on and talk about a little bit. And by no means am I an expert in this, but I have gone down the micro strategy rabbit hole a little bit. Like I've

spent quite a few hours like listening to the, not just Michael Saylor himself and not just, I've watched the Q3 earnings call that he did a couple of times. I've been actively watching MSTR True North and the Quant Bros. There are a couple of podcasts out there that focus on this microstrategy strategy that Saylor and company are doing over there. And I just thought it would be good to kind of from a 2,000 feet above view and just kind of say it. We all know the stock has gone up crazy over the past year. So MicroStrategy has outperformed Bitcoin

by a fair bit over the past year. So MicroStrategy is up a little over 500%. And Bitcoin, how much is Bitcoin up? 300%? 300 or 400%? Something like that. In the past month, it's been tremendous. Yeah. So MicroStrategy has outperformed Bitcoin over the past little

while. And I think what we're seeing right now are a lot of the people that would be onboarded into Bitcoin are kind of being onboarded on to micro strategy instead i think the bull market seems to have started and it seems like micro strategy stock and options have kind of become the shit coin of this bull cycle,

if you want to call it that. It's getting some press, even like in Wall Street Bets. Yes. It's getting a little bit of eyes. Now, for those who like it, or even, let's be honest, it gives, it's a leverage play on Bitcoin. At least that's what it's touted to be. And you could use it in these tax-advantaged accounts. It's a leverage play on Bitcoin. At least that's what it's touted to be. Yeah.

And you could use it in these tax-advantaged accounts. Like in Canada, we have the TFSA or even RRSP. Or I guess in the States, you could put in a 401k. Is that tax advantages by doing? Either way. There's ways you could buy it. That's why people look at it. We have to live.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. We have to live in a fiat system. We have to live in a fiat world for the most part, right? When we pay our bills. When you go out and about, we can't just use gift cards always, we still have to use some fiat. So if you're some exposure to micro strategy, if you think the price of Bitcoin is going up. Take advantage of that, especially in a tax-advantaged account and reap all the rewards. Maybe not ape into it, but certainly a little bit

might go a long way. I certainly get the people that say that if you're Bitcoin only, that means Bitcoin, hold your own keys, self-custody, all that. I get it. Like, I completely get it.

But like you just said, it may or may not be realistic for everybody. Some people have money locked up in an RRSP for whatever reason, because it's been there for a long, long time and it's just there. And they got to do something with it. And these people are they believe in the ethos of Bitcoin and they want to be able to support Bitcoin in some way. And you have limited options right now. So there's the Bitcoin ETFs, there's MicroStrategy, there's the exchanges like Coinbase, there's the miners, the Bitcoin miners, of course.

So of those options, MicroStrategy is the one that's the best performing of the past little while. Maybe there's like some tiny mining company that's outperforming them, but I don't think so. And I really want to talk about exactly what MicroStrategy are doing. You mentioned before that it's a leverage play on Bitcoin. And that's true. They're trying to do that. They're aiming to have 50% higher volatility to the upside to Bitcoin. So their goal is if Bitcoin goes up by 100%, they're hoping that their stock goes up 150%. That's what they're trying to do.

But of course, it'll be the same on the downside. It'll go down more on the downside. They're doing this not by just going into debt. I think that's one of the misconceptions out there among Bitcoiners. There's this idea that Michael Saylor is just borrowing money, buying Bitcoin, and that's how this thing is happening. And that's not really true. What they're doing are issuing convertible bonds.

What a convertible bond is, yes, it's a debt instrument. It's a bond. But it has the optionality of converting to stock if the price of this stock reaches a certain target. So if MSTR reaches a certain target, a certain price, the debt will convert to stock. So that's dilutive. So that's going to dilute the amount. It's going to increase the amount of shares of MicroStrategy if that happens, but it's not exactly debt. Right. So it is debt, but it would become shares.

Right now. And what they're doing by doing this is they're opening up markets for people that want to have bitcoin on their balance sheets but for whatever reason are mandated that they're not allowed to like a pension fund for example a pension fund there's a certain amount of allocation that they have to have corporate bonds. And corporate bonds have not performed terribly well over the past little while. No bond has. Bonds have not done well recently in the past few years. So in comes these micro strategy bonds that these guys at hedge funds or pension funds can buy.

And it fulfills that part of their mandate, that this is now classified as a corporate bond. And because these bonds are incredibly volatile and they offer a lot of upside exposure and they have some, obviously a lot of exposure to Bitcoin. So it's an opportunity for these people have some obviously a lot of exposure to Bitcoin. So it's an opportunity for these people to get exposure through their bond allocation. Right.

And they've issued a lot of these micro strategies. They've issued quite a few of these bonds recently, like several tranches. So they have different times. So they have different maturity dates and different maturity prices going forward. As long as the price of Bitcoin keeps going up, potentially all of these

corporate bonds will convert into shares. It will dilute the amount of MicroStrategy shares that are there, but they won't mature to be debt. Now, the debt side of it, if Bitcoin goes down, like if Bitcoin goes down, these things won't convert into shares. And then MicroStrategy will have to service those debt, service the debt of these bonds. But because there's so much demand

for these products, there's people lining up outside the door to buy these things, that the demand has driven the interest rate on these bonds down, down, down, down, down, down, to the point that a large proportion of them, maybe even the majority of them, are at 0% interest rate. So even in a bear market, all MicroStrategy would have to do to service this debt would be to pay off the minimum payments of these things that are billions of dollars, but they are at 0% interest rate. So it's not the same as saying they're just borrowing Bitcoin, they're borrowing money to buy Bitcoin. It's not exactly the same thing.

It could be that. It's just depending on how things play out moving forward. Yes. That's an excellent explanation. Now, with respect to if the price of Bitcoin goes down and these are not converted into shares and so they have to pay back at least a minimum and go from there,

the way I understand it is what he's going to do at that particular moment, there'll just be a mechanism in place that he'll be able to quote-unquote borrow more money moving forward and just kick that borrowing can down the road. That debt will never be paid. The way I'm seeing it, he's like running a small version of the U.S. government where they're just continually getting more and more debt with no intention of paying it back.

And if things come and you have to they pay it back let's borrow some more to pay that and just keep going from there it's essentially like printing money so to speak it's it's they call it like the infinite money glitch well i can't speak to his intent but he's he is able to keep issuing all these more debt all this more debt and he's doing so because the price of his stock is now trading at a premium to its holdings of Bitcoin. So the last I checked, 402,000 Bitcoin times almost 100,000 per coin. So we're talking about $40 billion worth of Bitcoin is on MicroStrategy's balance sheet. And the last I checked there,

the stock is trading around $405, giving it a market cap of about $95 billion. So there's a premium there. More than 2X. More than 2X, about 2.6X, I think. But that's just based on the Bitcoin owners. Sorry to interrupt. That's strictly based on the Bitcoin owners. More than 2x about 2 2.6 x i think so but that's just based on the bitcoin only starting throughout that's strictly based on the bitcoin alone there's more than a company than just that not to say that it's as valuable or as desirable but just there's more mstr than

just that yes but to say that yes microstrategy does have like a software as a service business that's worth something yes it's not a zero. Right. But it's nowhere near $40 billion. Agreed. It's probably $10 billion at the most, $5 to $10 billion. I'm not quite sure. But that business is cash generating and they're not in debt. So it's reoccurring revenue that they're now able to use that reoccurring revenue from their online

software business to pay off this debt if it doesn't convert right so if these bonds don't convert to shares and they do that debt has to be serviced the ongoing revenue from their software company can pay off that debt now you mentioned like a it's you didn't use the word Ponzi scheme, but you did say that he can keep issuing debt, issuing debt. Well, one of the reasons why he's able to issue all these convertible notes is because of that premium, because of the premium that his stock is worth more than the underlying asset of the Bitcoin. So he's able to use that to just sell off his shares and then buy Bitcoin and accumulate more and more and more. And as the president, he's able to do this,

and then so you can continually do it. It's almost like a feedback loop. Yes. In that, yeah, it's going to work until well it doesn't yes he's able to keep issuing more shares so they're all aside from these convertible debt these convertible bonds that they're issuing they're also issuing more shares at the money so people say like atm like atm issuance like the last last one was 2121 billion at the moment. The number is significant, by the way, $21 billion, right? Yeah.

So the ATM is just throwing out more shares, diluting the amount of shares of MicroStrategy that are out there to just buy more Bitcoin. And right now, the shares of MicroStrategy are trading at a 2.6 premium, 2.6x premium to the Bitcoin that it holds. So by diluting the shares, by issuing more shares, you are then able to take that money, buy Bitcoin with that money. And that actually is accretive. It increases the amount of sats that each individual share holds. So you're diluting the stock in fiat terms. There's more fiat stock out there. But you're actually increasing the value of these shares if you measure them in Bitcoin. Now, with respect to this, give me the case why somebody would want to invest in MicroStrategy.

And I don't think you were preparing for this, but I'm wondering, is there any way that you would see somebody may want to park a portion of their wealth in MicroStrategy? Well, first of all, I'm glad you used the word invest because that's what this is. This is investing. You save in own you have hold your own keys you have bitcoin that is that is savings you're just saving in a different type of money what you're doing with micro strategy that is absolutely investing there is risk of loss here for sure absolutely now under what circumstances would somebody... I would... First of all, I'm not giving any financial advice. To me, I

feel better... I would feel better having my money invested in MicroStrategy than I would in any of the miners for sure. Right off the bat. Definitely more than... I would feel better in MicroStrategy than I would in Coinbase.

I would, I feel, and the ETFs? I think I feel better in MicroStrategy than I do in the ETFs. So if you're someone that has money locked away in some sort of pension fund, that's like an RRSP, some sort of retirement account, and you're looking for a Bitcoin-related equity, to me, this one is at

the top of the list. Any reason why somebody would not want to invest in MicroStrategy? Well, there's risk. There's a lot of risk here, right? Like you said like if bitcoin goes down uh he's gonna have to service this debt they're gonna have to service this debt

uh will they be able to i think so uh they managed to to get through the last bear market they got through it now they didn't nearly have as much debt on their balance sheet than they do now with these converts. But beware. Not your keys, not your coins. Benny's asking,

why MSTR over at ETFs? It's counterparty risk everywhere, right? It's counterparty risk. I think ETFs have just as's counterparty risk everywhere, right? It's counterparty risk. So I think ETFs have just as much counterparty risk as MicroStrategy. Like you're trusting somebody else with the ETF, you're trusting somebody else with those keys anyway. The ETFs are naturally decretive. So over time, the amount of Satoshis that each individual share of those bitcoin etfs over time that declines because there's a management fee so at least with micro strategy their their goal is to make it

accretive sats per share will increase where the etf are designed to decrease there i mean you're 100 right there is one etf that's in the states that extended their zero percent management fees so i would suggest if you're going to look to hold long term in one if you have to do this play this fiat game you might as well look into that if you don't want to get like mstr or whatever because that way at least you're not going to get eaten away with management fees over time but yeah you're 100 right that people tend to forget there's management fees that are applicable with these etfs which kind of makes these like you know like a traditional etf they have to do like rebalancing they have to look at all the companies they got to investigate and maybe put a new companies within their basket takes them out what the fuck they have to do with bitcoin you

know exactly like if if anything it should be as close to zero as possible if not being zero because the amount of work and effort required to maintain that it's fuck all yep and in some cases when you're pawning it off to fucking coinbase or shit like that. It is fuck all. Like, how much fucking work they got to do? I completely agree. I completely agree. With the ETFs, there's counterparty risk of those ETFs. Just like with

MicroStrategy as well, there's counterparty risk. And I know it's something you and Joey talk about all the time, and you hear it all over the place. Saylor doesn't hold its own keys. MicroStrategy doesn't hold their own keys that microstrategy has their bitcoin the last i heard the last i heard microstrategy has their their bitcoin between coinbase and fidelity and there may or may not be other custodians as well and and people use that as a knock against them i don't well i'm going to use it as a knock against them. I don't. I'm going to use it as a knock against them because

they're trusting somebody else. I'd rather them trust themselves. I would love to know what is the mechanism for them to get their corn off Fidelity or Coinbase? Is it simply just a few telephone calls or do they have to get a bunch of things signed

off? What is it? If it is a number of different things getting a number of different people to agree to it the exact same thing could be applied to a multi-sig just get those same individuals access to the keys and they have to prove it could be like a three or five or whatever the fuck it could be it's the exact same thing but rather than somebody else holding on to it or in this case two other companies hold on you can hold it yourself and it's just one less strike against you that's mark made a good point last week mark checked a bit from easy dns he said that perhaps it was

the board that didn't agree with the fact for them holding on to their their bitcoin when they first got into this because remember they first bought this in August 2021. I think August was the month. That sounds about right. The only thing I would suggest is that enough water has passed under the bridge, enough evidence to show why you would want to hold your own keys. We have Celsius, BlockFi,

and think of all the customers that had their digital assets on there, not just Bitcoin, but even a shitcoin on there. They've been rugged. Voyager Digital is another one. Yeah. I mean, I get it. This is a publicly traded company, though, right?

But what about Tesla? Tesla, for everything I've tried to look at, they hold their own keys. Tesla, and one could say, oh, maybe a small company. This is one of the biggest companies out there. And it's a significant amount of Bitcoin that they hold as well, Tesla. So anytime anybody says, give me a reason, no, no, no. I'm going to point to the shining light for Tesla. Here we go.

Granted, maybe it's a different animal because you have elon being there and he's a unique individual and he has a lot more sway in that company versus somebody else in another country company but still if tesla could hold their own corn anybody can i agree i agree but i do think it's not this micro strategy bitcoin play is their company now. It has become their company. And I don't know if expecting them to hold their own keys would fly with the board and would fly with shareholders, at least right now with the way things are now. Going forward,

it looks like there's going to be some sort of change in U SS. banking laws that may or may not happen when Trump gets in to make give banks the opportunity to hold custody of keys. I'm with you. I would prefer them to hold their own keys, but I completely get it why they don't. I don't hold it too much against them in this case as a public company i'll hold it against them benny's asking could ms mstr be the catalyzing rug pull for this cycle because they don't self-caste i would say probably not even though i i rank against if we're not holding on to it i think the likelihood of their corn getting yanked from under them it's slim but every day it's slim you know like it's slim today it's gonna be slim tomorrow it's gonna be slim the next day it's like every day you're rolling the dice it's not zero right

and that's you know think about it if he's going out there and he's investing so he's putting a lot of chips on bitcoin going up in price he's putting no chips in the fact that somebody else could rug his corn like you know what i mean it doesn't make sense like there's so much riding it it's not just his financial future but the company's financial future which a lot of people invested in and they're saying you know what we don't trust ourselves so to speak we'll have somebody else his financial future but the company's financial future which a lot of people invested in and they're saying you know what we don't trust ourselves so to speak we'll have somebody else trust or holding holding on to our bitcoin and you never know what could happen you know it's a honeypot right like you have and it's not to say that all their bitcoin is going to be in one

wallet in each coinbase and fidelity i would have a feeling it would be like spread over over multiple wallets it just only makes sense because if somehow one gets improvised or just gets hacked at least you only lose a little bit a portion it sucks but losing a little bit sucks way less than losing it all so i don't know i think it'll evolve over time like this micro strategy custody thing uh it hasn't been that long uh the rules are not really they're not great right now with the rules that they're they're kind of unclear so i think micro strategy are going to be at the vanguard of this, of these new types of rules. They're going to, it will evolve.

But I'm with you. I don't like it that they don't hold their own keys, but I completely get why they don't. And if somebody wants to hold that against them, I completely get it. Like I completely understand. But when you're holding the ETF, when you're buying a BlackRock ETF,

your county party risk is with BlackRock. RightRock and with where they hold their keys as well. So there's at least two points of failure. Same could be said for MicroStrategy. Okay, the MicroStrategy are a point of failure, and then Coinbase or Fidelity are the other point of failure. See, they can reduce it to one if they just took that out of the equation. I just look at that and say, it only makes sense. It's not like you have to have gold that's physically

stored in a vault that somebody like a vault in London. This is a digital asset. Anybody can hold it. You could theoretically put it on your fucking cold card and carry in your back pocket so i don't know i mean the good news is what they're doing here with respect to buying and i don't want you know somehow holding bitcoin i know they don't hold it directly but somehow you know they lay a claim to it these other companies are doing the same

right they're not doing exactly the same. Okay. What MicroStrategy are doing, they're implying a treasury strategy. MicroStrategy are becoming a company that can, their product is making Bitcoin financial products, where a lot of these other companies are just holding Bitcoin on their balance sheet, where it's not the same. It's not exactly the same thing. But it is at least opening up the door for other people to be able to hold Bitcoin.

And that's good. But I think what MicroStrategy are doing, I think it's quite unique. And I think that they're just in a very unique spot because they are such a small company outside of their Bitcoin holdings that their stock will move almost perfectly. I know perfectly there's other factors, but it will move very, very well, except more with the price of Bitcoin. So it'll track the price of Bitcoin very, very closely where a lot of these other companies that are going to try to implement a similar strategy with these convertible bonds, their stocks won't move

exactly the same way. And I think it's kind of a winner take all type of market. And if you're a pension fund and you're looking for Bitcoin exposure, I think you're going to want to go with the company that has the tracks Bitcoin, the closest Bitcoin. Well, today just announced that they got some corn and added it to their balance.

Great. 8% debt. I think it was the terms. So you're going to be borrowing, I believe money or borrowing a nest. So it's, you know, 8%.

If the price of bitcoin goes up more than eight percent through the duration of that they come out ahead i you know that seems like a no brainer i've talked to adam offline and they hold their keys they don't have anybody else trusting it their keys so with respect to that i gotta give them thumbs up for holding their keys yeah look i think it's great and bitcoin well are also a publicly traded company yes and and this isn't financial advice on bitcoin well either right yeah uh but they're not in the same category as micro strategy like this is bitcoin well i i know those guys pretty well. I really like them. I know their product. It's a good product.

But in terms of how big of a company it is, it's not even in the same stratosphere. No, it isn't. But with respect to that, it goes to show that even companies that are smaller, like a microcap, they can easily get wiped out if they make a few wrong

decisions. They don't have the same buffer as say a larger company does. So it's for somebody like this to make this type of move it's bold but it goes to show you how much conviction they have in Bitcoin. Yeah, it's a pretty significant size of their market cap

right? Like they're like a $20 million market cap company. Okay. This is a $20 million market cap company. This is a $2 million purchase. Could you repeat it? How much was the purchase you just conked out? $2 million, I think. Okay. I think it's a total of $2 million on a company that its

market cap is around $20 million. Yeah. That's significant. That's like 10% of their value. Now, Bitcoin well are in debt right they're not cash flow positive so they already have to service other debts so i i don't want to make this all about them or but their debt if you look at their the debt per share i think it is I mean that's been going down over time so they've been able

to at least become more not quite profitable but closer to getting to be profitable. They're moving in the right direction yeah and with this move too depending on where Bitcoin goes they could easily then at that point liquidate it and just become really

cash flow positive at least for a very brief period of time so they could move on their part i hope it works out well eight percent is kind of high but i guess they had no other option really there wasn't much of a market for this so they had to take what they could get yeah it's good i i think it's a good thing like i to me as a bitcoiner i like knowing that there's companies out there with skin in the game and they're holding bitcoin i really like that uh but it's not the same as as what micro strategy are doing micro strategy are creating an entire business um They're becoming a Bitcoin treasury producing company that sells a specific product. These other companies that are seeing the success that MicroStrategy is getting,

I don't think they can replicate it in any way. I think MicroStrategy is in a sweet spot and in a winner-take-all type of market here. It's still good that these companies are out there doing it. I think it's awesome. But I don't think it's the same thing at all. There was a three-minute presentation done by Michael Saylor for the board of Microsoft.

Thoughts on that? It was shit. Why? It was an awful presentation. I've never heard Michael Saylor sound so bored and out of just, he just had no energy whatsoever. He was rushing through these slides. Some of those slides were downright cringe. Like the,

there was like the Donald Trump dancey thing. It was awful. I hope, I don't know what was leaked. Is that the actual thing that is going to be going to the, I'm not sure. Or maybe that's just him practicing that thing. I thought it was really bad. I wasn't impressed at all.

I thought it was really bad. So the only thing I would say, the only caveat, I don't say, I mean, I'm on the board of us here, but with respect to these publicly traded companies, these large ones, I have no idea what these pitches look like, what they typically are all about. So this one might be par for the course or it might be unique. I just don't know.

I don't know either. Because I just don't have enough information. And if this is par for the course, then they just, they all have that same fiat tint to it which yeah and and i heard on twitter saying that oh microsoft is going to come in and take over and then microstrategy is going to go to zero or what not go to zero but they're going to take over the if microsoft were to incorporate microstrategy's playbook it's all over for MicroStrategy. That is completely false. It won't happen.

It can't happen. Microsoft is too big of a company. Even if they went in and bought billions of dollars worth of Bitcoin, it would pump our bags as Bitcoin holders. It definitely would pump our bags. But I don't think it would do anything to the stock of Microsoft. Microsoft is just way too big of a ship there are how many two trillion dollars three trillion dollars like yeah if not the largest by market cap number two like it's just you're flipping and flopping yeah the stock would never move with bitcoin like it never would they would have to have so much of it to move their stock, to incorporate MicroStrategy's playbook.

MicroStrategy's playbook works because the shares of MicroStrategy move with Bitcoin. Yeah. Microsoft can't buy enough Bitcoin to make their shares move with Bitcoin. I'm just amazed. I have my head buried up my ass so far i totally can't see the light here i'm just amazed that microsoft is like one of either one or the second largest company by market cap because i always in the 90s like what you know i grew up in the 80s 90s they were the shits in 1990s and even early 2000s if you had a computer you had windows then you had office like they had a

monopoly on just about everything but over time a lot of people don't have computers like i know people that just they use tablets or they use their phones or whatever so in terms of how much people are relying on microsoft windows or office or shit like that it's been lessening over the years but still like i just don't understand how the fuck i have to look at i mean i guess maybe on Microsoft Windows or Office or shit like that. It's been lessening over the years. But still, I just don't understand how the fuck I have to look at... I guess maybe their cloud-based business is so big. But still, what the fuck?

This is interesting. They've diversified into a ton of different things. Gaming. Gaming. Cloud is big. LinkedIn. How much money are they making with linkedin i have no idea if that's profitable is linkedin profitable i have no fucking clue no clue yeah same here like ai they they they're a huge investor in open ai right they're one of the

yeah so that could be a huge cash cow for them moving forward. Should be a huge cash cow for them. You know as well as I do, these big, big, big companies, they're benefiting from the money printer more than anyone. And they're benefiting from the ETFization of financial markets, right? Where there's so much passive flows into S&P 500 funds that the bigger companies are just going to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. They're benefiting from that. So Planet Musk is saying, point of clarification,

bags are when you're holding or underwater, yes? No. I mean, I would say I have, you know, my Bitcoin bags are, you know, I continually add them. I will pump them all day long but not necessarily underwater so i mean in my opinion i would say it's just what you own but that's just my point of view it could be wrong bitcoin blitz is saying yeah pretty much so he kind of agrees with uh planet musk i don't know what do you think well i want to go back to something somebody said

in the chat a little while ago about the ETF. Why would somebody hold micro strategy instead of an ETF? And I want to ask you a question. If you were holding an ETF of oil versus holding a stock of Suncor or Chevron or something like that over an oil refinery. Do you think that's the same thing? No, because the ETF, I would imagine, gives you a broader exposure to the oil market. So if one has a particularly down period of time, it wouldn't truly impact the ETF negatively. Or on the flip side, if it goes up, one of the companies just goes gangbusters, it won't

positively impact. You're kind of playing the market, trying to level it out, so to speak. Okay. And this example was from Saylor himself, like in his earnings call, where he compared what MicroStrategy is doing to an oil refinery, where Bitcoin is the oil, right? Like the ETF, you hold the commodity commodity the thing that's great like i i you know this is a bitcoin podcast we're all here because of bitcoin bitcoin's great like it's not a negative

thing on bitcoin at all but it's all that bitcoin is it is just bitcoin now a company that comes along and that can do something with the Bitcoin that adds value to it just like a refiner like a refiner takes oil makes jet fuel makes gasoline diesel light you know fuel all the way down to asphalt there's value in extracting those things from the underlying asset and that's what I think MicroStrategy is doing right now with these convertible bonds. And going forward, I have no idea what they're going to be able to do going forward, but I could definitely see them creating their own type

of lightning, right? Like creating some sort of level two network with their Bitcoin. Or Saylor said it himself that he wants to become a bitcoin bank some sort of scary that's scary i don't know why something about that just kind of scares me like it's it rubs me the wrong way maybe i'm just so would you rather it be micro strategy or be royal bank td bank of america wells fargo what would a bank offer in terms of bitcoin services MicroStrategy or be Royal Bank, TD, Bank of America, Wells Fargo? What would a bank offer in terms of Bitcoin services? When Bitcoin

when I could just simply own it and hold it myself, what does the bank do? What do they provide me? What sort of service is going to say with me yeah, I'm going to work with you in one way, shape, or another? A mortgage. Right? What if you wanted to you had a little bit of Bitcoin,

but not enough to buy a house, you know, on its own, you have a fiat mining job, you have a regular job. And maybe by then it's Bitcoinization, you have a sat generating job, you're getting paid in Bitcoin and you have savings in Bitcoin,

but you don't have enough to buy a house. So you need a mortgage. So maybe in some sort of mortgage where you deposit some Bitcoin with the bank and then the bank gives you a fiat mortgage on that

Bitcoin. That company is going to get wrecked in the long run. Probably. There's definitely going to be people being wrecked. Definitely. People are going to fuck around and find out for sure. I think we lost Len. Len, can you hear me? You're frozen.

I don't know if anybody can hear me, but I think Len's frozen. You back? Yeah, I'm back. Yeah, I think you bad weather over there no just my router is just playing thing thing so i was trying to say when that company would get wrecked over time because when you're issuing debt in a bitcoin system in the long run it's not going to be viable because as there is some default. There's always some defaults in a debt-based system.

When it comes to Bitcoin, it's not like you could create any more. There's a certain amount. Maybe you're getting paid to deposit your Bitcoin in a certain place. Maybe. Right? Something like that. Look, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't lend out my Bitcoin, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it.

I wouldn't lend out my Bitcoin. I wouldn't do it. But I can see that going forward, there might be something that I can't even imagine. That companies are going to do something. Right? That's it. That's the best way to say it. We just can't connect the dots just yet.

But I don't know. Anything else you want to talk about with MicroStrategy or anything? Because we're going up close to 50 minutes here. I don't want to keep you too long. Yeah, I'm just taking a look. I created a little sheet of the things I wanted to hit on, and I think I hit on pretty much everything. The only thing I didn't mention was them getting included into index funds.

So that's another reason why we might be seeing an increase in MicroStrategy's price is because as they're getting bigger and bigger, they're moving up the charts of the list of the biggest companies in the United States. So they're ultimately going to be included in a lot

of these passive ETFs. And there's a positive feedback. And then there's a positive feedback loop with that. So their price, in theory, at least, would go up. So then they can issue more of these convertible bonds or issue more shares at the money, buy more Bitcoin with that. That causes the price of Bitcoin to go up, which then causes their shares to go up. And it just... This is the theory.

For people that are bullish on microstrategy and have some exposure to it, that's what they're thinking. Did you ever look at one of these MSTR ETFs that are leveraged? Yeah, MSTX and MXTU. I think those are the two.

You've got to be fucking absolutely dj to do that i mean bless you if you're doing it i mean fuck you're dj if you are well i mean it's is it any worse than options you know people playing the options market puts and calls and all that stuff like i don't know i have i don't know to each their own like what people do with their own money it's on them if you know if you get i don't whatever i don't want. To each their own. Like what people do with their own money, it's on them. If you get, whatever, I don't want to get into too much into that, but you're right. You know what?

I guess there's one last thing. We could end this MSTR thing. What's up with you these days? When's your next Bitcoin meetup in Ottawa and where is it? Well, first of all, tomorrow. I'm going up to Montreal tomorrow. So there's a meetup in Montreal, the Bull Bitcoin, Panties for Bitcoin crew. Where is it? Well, first of all, tomorrow, I'm going up to Montreal tomorrow. So there's a meetup in Montreal, the Bull Bitcoin, Panties for Bitcoin crew. Where is it? Doing a meetup.

The same place it's always at. Go on meetup.com. I put the address in my GPS and it takes me there. It's at a pub. It's been there for a million years in old Montreal. So I got that this week and then we got a meetup here in Ottawa on Wednesday. So I got that this week. And then, uh, we got to meet up here in Ottawa on Wednesday.

So a week from today, uh, it's a big rig on the East end. So if you're in Ottawa, hit me up. Uh, yeah. How often do you run those meetings?

Between two and three times a month. So we got two, two. Every that are always twice a month. Always, always, always. And then we do special ones every once in a while. So we did a BitDevs one a few weeks ago. Then we went to a business last month.

I do Bitcoin walks as well in the summertime, like Saturday mornings. So I aim for three a month but two for sure you're partnering up with anybody for those events yeah i mean like well there's community here now right so i partner with the with the regular guys with the regular people that come around so there's like a community no is bull bitcoin involved i mean there's anybody else involved uh not really not officially okay like unofficially sure like we got like bull bitcoin will support but they're you know any hats or anything you're giving i'll just they did like way back when they gave me some swag

to give out like that was like two years ago um we got one of the guys actually lives in ottawa uh he works at bitcoin well so he comes to the meetups and he'll bring some stuff every once in a while, like t-shirts and stuff to raffle off. But it's not official. It's just anybody wants to come, they can't. I hope you'll go to it. In one day,

Boomer, I'm going to come to it as well. For sure. I'll make the trip. I've seen you once in your hometown, but it was for something else. And I'd love to attend one of those meetups one day. We've got to make it happen. Absolutely. But before we go, I want to do one thing.

You didn't have a no-corner of the week this week, so I have a no-corner of the week. Is this probably the first time you've ever done a no-corner of the week on a Wednesday show? I have one for next week. I already have one. Okay, well? I have one for next week. I already have one. Well, I got one for this week. I went out for wings last night with a couple of

Bitcoiners. And this restaurant has wing night on Monday night, Wednesday night, and any time that there's an Ottawa Senators game. But last night, no wings. So it was like the one time in the week,

like because the senators just happened to not be playing and it wasn't a wing night. So my no corner of the week is the pub that I was at last night for not having wing night. Like, like how dare they not have wing night when we were supposed to go for wings how close is that to the Corral Center actually very close

extremely close, 5 minutes not even 5 minutes I don't want to mention their names there are no wingers of the week no wingers of the week those motherfuckers anyway, Boomer appreciate you taking the time yet again to come on the show. And hope you all enjoyed it.

We'll be back at this again next week. Joey is back in his saddle on Monday. So if you want to hear some firsthand information of what it's like for him to become a father for the first time, definitely tune in. We're going to hear some really good stories, I think. So with that, take care. And you know what to to say i'll leave it to you boomer don't be a cuck that's right