The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - TRADING STONKS ON COINBASE - WHAT COULD GO WRONG | The CBP 220 Pt 1

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

FRIENDS AND ENEMIESIn today's CBP, we're diving into the world of trading tokenized securities on Coinbase, exploring the latest bitcoin news and trends that could impact your investment decisions. With the likes of MSTR and Semler making waves in the crypto space, we'll analyze the current market sentiment and provide insights on how to navigate the complex landscape of bitcoin analysis. From Trump's tariffs to the ongoing trade war, and the recent developments in Iran and Israel, we'll discuss how these global events could affect your stock trading strategy. So, what could go wrong when trading stonks on Coinbase? Join us as we explore the intersection of Wall Street and crypto, and what it means for your investment portfolio.#Bitcoin #coinbase #MSTR #IsraelvsIranJoin us for some QUALITY Bitcoin and economics talk, with a Canadian focus, every Monday at 7 PM EST. From a couple of Canucks who like to talk about how Bitcoin will impact Canada. As always, none of the info is financial advice. Website: ⁠www.CanadianBitcoiners.com⁠Discord: https://discord.com/invite/YgPJVbGCZX A part of the CBP Media Network: ⁠www.twitter.com/CBPMediaNetworkThis show is sponsored by: easyDNS - https://easydns.com EasyDNS is the best spot for Anycast DNS, domain name registrations, web and email services. They are fast, reliable and privacy focused. With DomainSure and EasyMail, you'll sleep soundly knowing your domain, email and information are private and protected. You can even pay for your services with Bitcoin! Apply coupon code 'CBPMEDIA' for 50% off initial purchase Bull Bitcoin - ⁠⁠https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/cbp⁠⁠ The CBP recommends Bull Bitcoin for all your BTC needs. There's never been a quicker, simpler, way to acquire Bitcoin. Use the link above for 25% off fees FOR LIFE, and start stacking today.🎙️ New to streaming or looking to level up? Check out StreamYard and get $10 discount! 😍 https://streamyard.com/pal/d/6502465020362752

it only is for this for that, but they're really treating it like a threat. And one of the things that can't be attacked is your self custody Bitcoin. And one of the things that can be attacked is the ETF. Can't be exposed to that. That's my view. It's not a good idea. And by the way, that'll hit MSTR too. It'll probably get other stuff as well. Friends and enemies. Welcome back Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. Friends and enemies. Welcome to the CBP. Wanna be better informed? Listen to Len and Joey. Spots are taken care of right off the top. Oh, Bitcoin and easy DNS. The media is feeding a slop.

It doesn't matter what topic's discussed. Quality entertainment and information you can trust. That's being planned or at least discussed. We're not gonna allow people to buy our stuff. We're not gonna say anything. Send the guys some value. Boost them with some stats Bitcoin is the scarcity acid I mean, it's just a fact

Geopolitical national down to the local cloud Hell of an intro ladies and gentlemen friends and enemies. Welcome to yet another edition of the Canadian Bitcoiners podcast I'm Len Joey is gonna be on his way. He's just having a battle right now with his bowels. Let's see who wins that Well, he is just about to join us. So I am not going to go. What is going on? What is going on? Good to see you. You seem a few pounds lighter, Joey. You see that you have a spring in your step. This is an ongoing process. Okay. I'm running knots right now on the lower half of my

Are you also filtering shit out to make sure that doesn't get through the filters are working. Yeah, they're working great Thanks buddy good to see you how's things good Nice day in Southern Ontario, I don't know where the the heat is, but at least in our neck of the woods, it's really nice. At least something like me likes it. So yeah, gotta be 45 with the humidex, something like that. You know what? When I boil water, it boils at a hundred when it freezes, it freezes at zero. It's not what it feels like. It's what it hits. True. That's so my car, the temperature, it's not what it feels like. It's what it hits. That's my car to temperature.

It's not what it feels like. It's what it actually is. So this feel like stuff. I like that. It's good and all, but the reality is it's not for me. Yeah. So good to see everyone. I don't know what Len has done yet. Probably not the ads. So maybe we'll just started. I waited for as long as possible. Did you enough time. I appreciate that. Get the wand and do a nice clean job over there. Get the hose. I appreciate that. Well, let's do the ads.

Easy DNS is our, what do you call Mark? A presenting sponsor, lead sponsor. He's the OG on this podcast. He's your friendly neighborhood registrar. If you want to start a new website, grab a domain, port a domain. Mark can help you with all that stuff. He's got all the best virtual private server options for the Bitcoin enthusiast. We talk about it all the time. BTC Pay server, Nostra Relays, Bitcoin nodes. You can do it all over there. Plus line, easy mail, domain sure. And there's a few other things in the hopper too that you can grab for your domain for a couple extra bucks. Always worth it. We talk about the importance of these things on access of easy all the time. And actually access of easy land. Bitcoin is now suddenly concerned about

Bill C2, which we have been talking about over there in its different forms for, I don't know, a year probably. It was Bill C65 for a long time. Now it's Bill C2 and it's the same sort of data breach and overreaching that Mark can prevent from affecting you at some level anyway, over these DNS. So go there, use the code CBP media, get half off your first round of buys, load up, man, buy a couple domains and get started on your little portfolio with Mark. What's the mempool like, Joey? Do you know what it is like?

Is it good or bad? I just... The mempool? I have no idea. I mean, at the top of your head. I mean, if it's full or not, if it's... I'm guessing for next block transaction, it's 90 cents. So the last block that was built, it had an average of seven SAF per VBytes. So I thought it'd be a little bit lower than that. It looks like the blocks are slowly filling up, which means when you buy your Bitcoin at bull Bitcoin, you may wanna start looking at other options besides just using on-chain.

On-chain is still the way to do your buys and potentially sells, but lightning is a solid way to do it. Lightning, we talked about it offline. No, I didn't talk about it. Somebody was talking about it. Yeah, it's the cleanest way and private. Good luck.

Is it Tesnik was trying to figure it out comparing it to a shit coin called Monero. And Monero you could trace stuff potentially, Lightning you can't. So in terms of privacy, Lightning has your beats. You could use that when you use bull Bitcoin. You could do daily cost averages now with bull Bitcoin. A lot of people are starting to do that because you know what?

I'm starting to see people use our code and I'm liking this. I'm liking this. People are using bull Bitcoin because why? They're mission focused. They provide you the right service that you want. They're non-custodial. They won't rug you when you put your buy in. You got to provide an address to send it to. You pay your bills with Bitcoin. A lot of different things you can do. Check them out. Open an account. Canada, Mexico, Costa Rica, Europe, some parts of that. Yep. And who knows what's next. Bull Bitcoin.

Pablo just did a couple of podcasts, parents, as I recommend people check out one with me, me too, man. He's out there grinding the, he did one with the, your life, your terms guys. Anthony did one with them. And I just saw another appearance that he did that I haven't checked out yet. So I'm going to listen to those. He may be, yeah, he might be in Prague with some of the other Euro bowl guys. Good crowd, man. We love those guys over a bowl and you guys will love them to Len. Boosts maybe then some housekeeping. What do you think?

Yeah, I got only four boosts worthwhile to speak of Owen 350 sats and it is an eggplant. Love it. An eggplant. Love it. An eggplant. Yeah, everyone knows what that means. MoBTCDick 500 sats. He writes, lens in Vancouver, beautiful BC baby. And I think this is with respect to me losing my keys. I was joking last week on a street that I cannot name.

No, I'm not in Vancouver. I didn't travel to Vancouver ever in my life. I was just, you know, trying to poke fun at a particular name of it. City Street. Now that's I can't pronounce it. I don't even know if Google Maps is going to pronounce it. Make a left on. Friend of the show, Ken Sim, pronounced the name, I think, at a press conference last week. I didn't listen to it, but apparently it's not that hard.

I mean, I'm still against the the spirit of this move anyways but at least you'll be able to say it when you call 9-1-1 because you've been stabbed with a syringe by a homeless man who's pissed on himself. This is the wait time, it might be too long. Toronto's having a huge issue with 9-1-1 wait times being much longer than what they should. Yeah, I bet. I bet. And Doom Satoshi, 5 521 stats does this twice and both times he says the exact same thing. Thank you for your time. Gotcha bro. Thank you. Yeah. And that's it for the notable

stats. Love it. Love it. Housekeeping. None. It's summertime. Let's get into the show. Where do you want to start? Oh, that was fast. You know, it's going to be again, a rather quick, I think Bitcoin related thing because with respect to Bitcoin, I think it's been overshadowed overshadowed with what's going on in the world. Sure. So including, by the way, a ceasefire just announced minutes before the show started. So and that's what caused the spike. Oh yeah, buddy. Oh yeah. So who, you know, let's talk about that after these. I'm curious. I'm, but we'll lead off with that story. I think you like to talk about because you and I talked about this briefly offline in this point base.

They filed with the sec to allow them the ability to offer up blockchain based stock trading. What is this? Right? Digitized stocks. Yeah. Right. It's a tokenized equities. Right. It's a different way to compete against companies like Robinhood because Robinhood they've been encroaching on Coinbase's territory by offering up bitcoins and shit coins So I'm not don't know if this is a way to stick it to Robin Hood or just a way to expand Their influence and gain some more revenue. I'm pretty sure it's the latter of the two but either way, this is what you're doing and I wonder what blockchain is gonna be used if something is gonna have to be used in order to do like

It's gonna be offering shit coins on a shit coin blockchain I presume and I even think that maybe Just maybe the sec would be the one administering it I don't think it would be somebody like coinbase or they would want off to me but that's just if they ever do decide is because it I I find this story kind of funny too, right? Like the fact that Coinbase is asking the SEC's permission for this is We're both old enough. Joey least I am for sure and I remember the SEC when they were being sued

Sorry when the SEC was suing Coinbase. Sorry, that was like two years ago. It wasn't even that long Yeah, it wasn't that long ago and why because they were operating an unregistered broker It wasn't that long ago. And why? Because they were operating an unregistered broker. Right. And the claim was that they were selling shit coins that were ultimately securities. Yeah. What the fuck is this? What the fuck is this? So anyways, this tokenized thing would be the first of its kind in the US. The SEC has to date never approved such a thing before. And so the question then remains, end user, what's the benefit? Why would the end user want this? What's the thing? I think like Bitcoin, this has the potential to be traded 24 seven. Bitcoin obviously doesn't close

and if it runs on something, maybe potentially could run 24 seven. So you got it rushed by the end of the day and to close to sell or buy some Apple shares. You don't need to do that. This thing is going to run regardless day, night, holiday, doesn't matter. And also there's potential for fractional shares. Now I know they already offer fractional shares, but they can make it potentially the unit bias even easier. Yeah, you really break down the pieces. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 50 cents for something like a share in Apple or something.

Who the fuck knows? They can do whatever they want. And another thing is potentially this be quicker settlement, right? Like depending on what blockchain they use, how they build it, how they use it, the settlement of that, it could be significantly faster than what it is right now. What we have right now when you go through brokerage is what T plus two or something like that. Yeah. So the settlement, the existing system is very slow. The alternative, which is being proposed here and I'm reading, you know, I'm trying to read between the lines here. It

could potentially be much faster. Also overhead. Right now the overhead, you got your brokerage clearinghouse bank all your shit involved, you can eliminate all that overhead is then much less. It's the drawbacks though. What's the drawbacks? The shit coin, right? It is essentially it's something what sort of investor protection would people get? How much more would the Federal Reserve have to print in order to make people whole if something were to happen? Because shit does happen with these things, especially things that are brand new. Things

break, things fuck up, there's downtime. Look at Solana, periodically that thing goes down. All it is, it's just, it's interesting stuff. I would say that which is a star, you know, buy Bitcoin to leave the shit coinery behind. This stuff is interesting. I know you and I chat about it offline, but I don't know. I think it's just more of a buy Bitcoin mentality for me. I don't think it's a shit coin in the way that other stuff is a shit coin. And, you know, when I think about what tokenized trading is, you know, you did a pretty good job summarizing it there. It's a token that might represent one share, or half a share, or tenth of a share,

whatever they decide that the nomination's gonna be. On some accompanying blockchain network that is transparent, it's, you know, all the good things about blockchain, and all the bad things too. It's, you know, this all the good things about blockchain, all the bad things to faster settlement. You know, you're not worried about stuff like mining and whatnot on these private chains. So typically you're going to see pretty quick settlement times. It's 100% centralized. I don't think, you know, I'll just address a couple of the comments that you made. I think some of them are good. I think some of them

are on the lake. The one the one comment you made about, if something happens, how much more printing is gonna need to happen to make people whole? I think the answer to that is none, because those shares have to be pegged to a stock at some level. So if you're suggesting that the SEC will let Coinbase trade paper equities,

like I doubt that. Coinbase has done a lot of things that I think are detrimental to Bitcoin, but they so far have not been caught at least or been corralled by a bad trading day or a high leverage moment where price crash and they had to do something that they shouldn't have otherwise had to do because of paper derivatives, for example. They don't seem to be doing that. So that's one thing. Other thing that I would say is that this is more interesting to me than just buying stocks. And I'll tell you why. If you can trade stock tokens with other people, even if it's just Coinbase users, I think a lot of people will start using that in place of cash.

If I was someone who was like buying lunch for a group and everyone had a Coinbase app and wanted to pay via the Coinbase app instead of like a mix of PayPal, Venmo, Cash app, whatever. Here in Canada it's even harder because if you're an American you can't even use e-transfer here unfortunately. So just a mess, right? But let's say you don't have a bunch of Bitcoiners there. You could presumably use Coinbase to settle the transaction with your friends and get

that total value in stock token, stock token X or Y, which is interesting to me because I think a lot of people who talk about, well, Bitcoin is a threat to the dollar, blah, blah, blah. I think that is true, but I actually think this is a significant threat to the dollar that's even more immediate if they allow this sort of thing. A lot of people prefer stock tokens to cash, especially if they're tax efficient in some way. Is Coinbase going to offer tokenized stock trading in 401Ks and IRAs?

I don't know, maybe. We'll see. The other thing I'll note is that Coinbase is at this point notorious for using the firepower they have on the legal side and the regulatory capture side to try and be the first mover and then yank the ladder up. I expect that to be the case here, but it seems to me like Robinhood and a few other places probably have this capability right now as well as long as there's legal clarity around it or as long as there's a guarantee that there's not going to be any action which is one of the things Coinbase is asking for.

Either you give us a no action letter or you give us exemptive relief to trade the securities. So that's another thing. You know the question of custody is interesting one because the SEC, I think we talked about this at work the one day, people don't realize the SEC actually owns every equity. They own every stock, everything. So it's like a sort of settling layer trading hub for every single equity and you get a paper representation of course, you know, as is the case in many of the different fiat games people play, not your certificate, not your stock, as the saying goes.

So would they custody every token as well, or would they only set aside a certain number of stock certificates that were available for trade on Coinbase? If they did that, then presumably the stock would trade at a different overall price if the demand for tokenized stock was greater than the demand for stock certificates in the traditional sense. There's a lot of moving parts to this, but I like it, honestly I like it as a Coinbase shareholder, you know, no, not financial advice, but the other reason I like it is because I think Len that this is another kind of shot at traditional finance and Specifically stuff like selling order books right in front running retail investors for pennies at a time every second every half second

Whatever these guys are doing on Robin Hood and cash app and well simple It's always in the terms of service that if you're a retail investor using these things Your order is submitted to the highest bidder basically and they get to see everything that's coming in then they make a trade and they Make a couple bucks off that so you know you're taking a chunk out of that presumably and also I just want to see more competition. I don't you know we talk about this all the time from the bank side TD recently, I think we talked about this on the show started offering Half share partial share trading whatever fract share is the term I'm looking for. And I went to try it out and they're still charging $10 for every buy and $10 for every

sell. So, like they're obviously not seeing enough competition. So you want to introduce more competition and it's hard to make the case that you should pay $10 or any dollars or any cents on a basically, like you mentioned, zero overhead, zero capital invested blockchain transaction that's centralized. There's no need for miners, no need for anything else.

You want that at some level. Now, I agree with you that your time is better spent just buying Bitcoin as opposed to like going to this second derivative equities option. You know, like I'm not just going to buy equities and well simple. I'm actually going to go download Coinbase. I'm going to get these equity tokens and then try and figure out how they work and what to do with them and stuff. I think that's maybe a bit of a stretch for now, but you know, what first move didn't seem unnatural at first, right? It's not the unnatural thing. I mean, let's, let's talk, you spoke a lot there and I just want to touch on a few points. Is ETH a shitcoin?

Yeah. Centralized? Yeah. Difficult to run a node? Yeah. Impossible to verify how many units are in circulation? Yeah, close anyway. Yeah. These are good metrics to figure out something that's shit coin. Yeah. Well, if this is run, like the way I believe it would be, would you be able to run a node to verify anything? No, of course not. Would you believe it? Then? It's a stock, right? But like there is controlled totals, there is intrinsic value, you know, having shares of Apple, the company or Microsoft, the company.

Some people have value in a single ETH. What I'm trying to get at is it checked off a few of those checkboxes. To me, that's a shit coin. I can't verify centralized. Now let's just play this out, right? Say they go ahead with it. You have company, it's publicly traded, there's a hundred shares out there and now you want to have it tokenized. How these hundred shares get tokenized? Does Coinbase have to buy one share and then sell it to somebody that wants to buy it and then tokenize it? Like how does this work?

Well, this is the question. That's the custody question, right? But ultimately there's going to be, I think the reason this is a question at all is because there's just no precedent for this. We've never tried this. No one's tried this before, right? So you're right. But somebody's gonna have to, there's gotta be some mechanism to burn something to create something else, or else you're going to be creating more. It'll be a paper thing, right? Okay. Right. There's gotta be destruction of something and a creation of something. Yeah. Like there has to be control over the total issued shares, but that's for the company to deal with, right? The SEC and the company deal with that and how they, how

they're tokenized is a different beast entirely, but I don't think it's like, I don't think it's a risk in terms of like there's gets hacked. Okay. Hypothetically, Coinbase gets hacked. Yeah. I'm the hacker. I go into your account. I take whatever you have there. I liquidated it into something else. Now I have Bitcoin. You can't take it from me. Now you could take away the, uh, that's I sold those tokenized shares to somebody else to a third party. What are you going to do? Rip them off? Make you, somebody's going to have to be made whole here. I mean, it's the same thing you would do. Yeah. You have to come from the federal. So this is the, this is the printing you're talking about. Yeah. Is there more, is there more potential to like have to fill a gap because someone's Coinbase accounts

gets hacked? Like I guess, yeah, that's a fair point, but I don't know how much like, you know, that gap that you're talking about between the amount of dollars being printed now and the extra amount that would be printed if there was a Coinbase hack after a year of trading equities. It's just not a... It's a statistically insignificant number compared to what's going on. 100%. It's just another drop in the bucket, or it could be quite a bit. In terms of the value of the overall trading market versus the M2 out there, there's a significant percentage there. I'm not going to say it's all going to go tokenized, but there's potential that a lot of it can because as we said, less overhead, you could trade 24 seven, there could be fractional shares. There's a lot of a lot less friction going to that way. And then if that's the case, if you get a lot of equity flowing in

there, then that's a significant percentage of the overall M2 that's USDM2 that's floating around. Yeah. And then that's what I'm trying to get at a hack and it's somehow Coinbase or Fidelity or whoever is the one cussing this stuff or doing the issuing of that's it's a honeypot and if you have a honeypot out there you're gonna have attackers coming different ways eventually their fortress right now that's been able to hold off all these attacks will eventually fail. Just looking quickly here, because I don't want to say something that is incorrect. There is a precedent for this.

Binance started doing tokenized stock trading in 21 in non-US markets of US stocks. Yeah, Apple, Tesla, Microsoft, Binance partnered with CM Equity AG, a regulated German financial institution to custody the underlying shares. So there's your custody answer. There's a third party holding them. Each tokenized stock was backed one to one and users could buy fractional shares up to 1%. So 0.01 making it accessible to retail investors. Yeah. So the other example, this is FTX. Obviously, we know how that turned out. And the big factor here, the big variable is the SEC and you know, they want to control as much as possible. Yeah. It's going to be, yeah, they want to understand. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. They're going to want as much oversight as possible. And I could understand

that if I had that type of control that they have, I wouldn't want to let loose. Well, they need it. They need that control over the equity market because if there's any market where there's more scammers than altcoins and shitcoins, it's in public equities. There's no doubt about that. So that's the central node that's going to be running it. I can't see them. I don't have that big a problem with them running, as long as they run it with the same sort of... What's the word I'm looking for? The same level of competence that they run the trading options now, it doesn't matter to me. I don't think it's that important. CBC, a central bank running a CBDC where they have proof of authority, that's the way they

run things. This would be the very similar thing where they could essentially do what they want. They could nullify a transaction or... Yeah, I'm not saying those concerns are not... Yeah, I'm not saying those concerns are not valid. I just think they're out on the curve is all. That's a bit of a right curve risk. a right curve risk that's our right tail risk I should say I mean look at the end of the day that I think the two things I would tell people is you probably don't need tokenized securities because you have a lot of the same flexibility in apps like Wealth Simple already well simply even introduced 24-7 trading a little while ago on a lot of equities.

So there's that. You can? You're allowing? Yeah, I can go on right now and sell. I think it's probably the top 100 S&P companies. For sure, it's like half the stuff I own, Apple, Microsoft, Google. You can buy and sell this stuff after hours now for free. There's no additional cost to me.

I'm sure someone somewhere is getting my orders, but we already talked about that. The second thing I would say is that you have to imagine that people who are coming to Coinbase for stock trading are gonna wind up buying Bitcoin at some point because they're gonna see that price flash in front of them all the time on the app. They're gonna see all the gains. They're gonna see all the stories about this stuff. And you know, like Len and I and probably like many of you, you start off trading stocks in a currency that you think is valuable. And before you know it, you realize that it's not what you thought it was.

And you wind up in Bitcoin at a level you didn't think was responsible when you started, but now you think is the only responsible way to handle your finances. So I would say that this is another opportunity for new entrants to find. Yeah, potentially capturing a new audience. Yeah, because Coinbase flashes that price all the time. I should have downloaded the app and had a look and see what that interface looks like these days. Because I remember when I had it years ago, the first thing that flashed to you was the Bitcoin price. So, I mean, if you're looking at that every day and one day it's 60K and then three months later,

it's 110, that's going gonna raise some eyebrows, right? And people might start buying that and I think that's a reasonable expectation. But again, what I don't know is who, like where these people who are coming to buy tokenized stocks are coming from. That's the one question I have for Coinbase. They seem to be missing, I'm speaking as a shareholder now,

criticism as a shareholder, they seem to be missing a lot of low-hanging fruit and they're going for stuff that, you know, I think they're bored and they're, you know, their internals would say is really, you know, big innovative jumps and some of them might work but so far, I mean, you had base, you had the NFT marketplace, you had a few other things that seemed trendy and good and smart at the time that just fell flat and now you're going to try and do tokenized stocks. You're not going to be the only game in town. Robinhood has been preparing for this too, like I said, and there's probably other exchanges and apps that I'm not even thinking of that have been preparing for this as well, but just don't have the legal firepower to take on, I shouldn't

even say take on, to engage with the US government because you're not really taking on the government anymore. It's like they just wave you through. It's like that meme of the guy checking people at the door. He's not even touching them. That's how the SEC operates these days. The Gansler days are long gone. So anyway, I you know, as a as a shareholder, I think this is like it's not the easiest way to add add profits to your books. That's for sure. But if it works, it'll be gangbusters. We'll just have to wait and see. Oh, this there's a good story on Reddit. I want to bring up a guy named apprehensive file five, five, two. And he wanted to buy a hard asset, right? Because he sees his currency

being devalued. I believe he lives in Australia. And so what he did, he went out, he bought two gold bars, each from a different seller on eBay. Each gold bar was one ounce. So that's the range of $6,700, $6,800. I don't know. Something like that. USD. No, USD is an ounce of gold is $3,400. Yeah. So the two ounces. Oh yeah. You're right. Sorry. You bought two of them. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Quite expensive. That's a big buy. $6,700, $6,800. And so it turned out after some analysis I don't know how he fucking came up with this analysis. The gold was fake Right. He bought it on eBay spent 65 60 6700 USD, you know decent amount of cash and

You know, this is essentially why I Bitcoin right because with Bitcoin if somebody sends me Bitcoin I could verify it with very little resistance. I have my laptop which runs it. My node is 15 years old, give or take. It takes pennies to run every day. And so that's how much it costs for me to verify every transaction. Bitcoin is proving itself to be superior in so many ways. This is another way because I could verify it easily. I could move it across space. Doesn't matter how far. Sometimes for pennies, sometimes for dollars.

I don't need to hire security guards to protect it. And I'm hoping that Buddy learned a lesson here. He seems like he wants hard assets. Hopefully he learned a lesson that there's something better out there that, and maybe we have another Bitcoin or S-Born. I saw the story. I was like, why? Why just buy gold?

Not, not that hard to test an ounce of gold by the way. Really? Yeah. Cause an ounce is not that big. It's not that big a unit. So what you would do is basically get what's called like an acid board. And we used to do this all the time at the pawn shop. So I'll give you the quick rundown. Let's say you get like a board, okay? There's like a little blackboard and

what you do is you rub the gold on the board, okay? So you leave a nice big line, then you do another big line next to it, another big line next to it. You might do four of them, okay? Most of the time you do four. If you don't know what carat the gold is. And in the kit you get four or five acids. One is for 10 carat gold, one is for 14, one is for 18, one is for 24. And what you'll find is that as you move through the acid grades, the gold will stop disappearing when the acid touches it.

The acid will no longer erode the gold that's been left on the board. That's how you know what carat the gold is. So presumably what this guy did was leave a bunch of scratches, use the 10 carat and the 10 carat acid just kept erasing it over and over and over again. So interesting, I will note that I didn't see the story but I guess I said this on the show before, the definition of gold actually varies jurisdiction to jurisdiction. A lot of people don't know this. For you and me Len, we're Italian, most of the gold I own, buy, was gifted over the years is 18 carat.

Like my chain is, I think my chain is, maybe it's 14 actually, but my ring is- This is 99.99% pure gold. So that's 24 carat, should be 24 carat that he bought, right? Some places offer 8 carat gold, which is not legally gold in the United States, Canada and a few other places. But in Ireland, for example, it used to be legal to sell 8 karat gold. That's a lot more nickel and other metals than it is actual gold. So it's a hard gold, as the saying goes. Your gold is more soft and malleable. The closer you get to 24 karat and the closer you get to zero, which is by the way, just a percentage. So 24 to 24 is 99.99,

that's the math basically. And then as you go down, 20, 18, or sorry 22, 18, 10, etc. are all different percentages of 24 and that's where you get that three-digit number. So anyway, a lot of places don't even allow 8 karat gold, but some do. And so some places are still producing 8 karat gold, which if you brought to a shop here in Canada or in the United States, you'd be told this is nickel, basically is what they would tell you. And they may buy it, they may not, but the smelting cost, the scrap cost is more than the worth of the gold, basically, is the story there. So anyway, a little gold info for you.

I agree. I would not be buying ounces of gold unless it was from a bank. That'd be the only place I'd buy it. Or Costco, I agree. I would not be buying ounces of gold unless it was from a bank. That'd be the only place I'd buy it. Or Costco, I guess. I trust Costco. Costco will let you return that gold in three years if you decide you didn't like it, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. And why wouldn't they? Because then they'll still be able to resell it. Be up in value, probably. Right. You know, I mean, I was thinking about gold and aside, I mean, there's obviously there's a case use for it in industrial settings. Yeah.

Or your phone and like Bitcoin obviously doesn't work. There's no physical. I mean, the use case for industrial gold is basically, I mean, as a percentage of the value prop, it's, you know, yeah. A hundred percent. But there is like, so, but so I'm just trying to think like, what's the value of gold? They will not really, what's the value? Like what makes it like desirable to own?

But I think it does one thing and it does better than Bitcoin. I have to admit this. stealing Bitcoin and large quantities of Bitcoin is, I think much for sure it's easier than stealing large quantities of gold. So if hypothetically, if you have a mass a great deal of wealth, like the Federal Reserve or the Treasury that owns the gold in Fort Knox. So if that was in Bitcoin, theoretically, in one address, you could steal it all really quick. They would obviously put in multiple addresses to make it harder to steal. But still stealing all that gold is physically impossible without a

fucking really an army. But Bitcoin in terms of like stealing it, it's a lot easier to do. So with respect, that's, I'm going to say is gold could be better. It's harder to steal vast quantities of gold than it is Bitcoin. Other than that, the coin wins. Yeah, I agree. And I think more and more people are waking up to that. I mean, I haven't looked at the price since this ceasefire

before I was when I was pinching a loaf there I was looking hundred and five thousand you know like yeah it almost hit a hundred and six oh yeah and by the way like like the gold price didn't really react to that instability the way that you might think it would have. The gold guys say well the gold guys say a lot that this is this is a weird argument they make. I don't know if I agree with it or not. I haven't looked at the price history and I don't know that much about how gold trades during geopolitical turmoil.

To be perfectly honest, I haven't done that research, but a lot of the gold guys say that during inflationary times, the reason gold didn't rise is because gold is actually a political turmoil hedge, an uncertainty hedge. And then when times are uncertain, you have war in the Middle East, nuclear sites getting hit, president making a speech 10 PM on a Saturday, gold doesn't move either. And then they say, well, gold has already sniffed out this issue and price is already there and it's actually waiting for the next inflationary impulse to make its... It's Schrodinger's gold case,

basically. And every time there's one or the other situation, the opposite situation is what the gold bugs say they're waiting for. I've seen this a bunch over the last year because there's obviously been tons of geopolitical turmoil and tons of inflationary impulses. So I don't know. Well, make it up what you will. Trade on a weekend? I mean, when this gold doesn't trade Saturday, but it opens Sunday night with like with with oil, with everything else. Commodities open. It opens with them.

Is that because it opens overseas somewhere like? No, it's the I think it's a Chicago Merck exchange, right? I'm pretty sure. The Merck. Yeah, Mercantile exchange. I'm pretty sure that's the one that commodities trade on. I'd have to, someone can fact check me on that, but I haven't looked at that in a long time. I do know it opens on Saturday or Sunday night though, Sunday at seven or eight, depending on what time the market's closing based on

daily savings time, et cetera, et cetera. That's Eastern standard for me. I don't know what it is for everybody else, but. I put, I time locked my corn in my title here. Nice. Because well, and it's, it's leading up to this next story. It gives the reality is people should learn how to time lock their Bitcoin $5 wrench attacks or whatever it costs these days to buy a wrench to make some damage is becoming more prevalent these days because if people that own Bitcoin,

while you're going to be a target, right? So if you time lock it, it's locked away. There's a story about this guy, 23 year old dude in France, and he suffered this past week on Tuesday. So last week on Tuesday, but he was abducted by captors, kidnapters, and they had provided specific demands to his family in order to release him and In order to release them. They wanted two things one 5,000 euro in cash. Yeah, and the second they wanted to hand over the ledger device that he owns

Mm-hmm. And at the time is unknown how much Bitcoin or shit coins he has on that ledger, but Remember not too long ago. We also had the co-founder of ledger he was kidnapped and remember they cut off his finger time just flown by i actually don't remember that but maybe this happened late last year okay this happened and this is becoming you see more and more of these stories coming forward not to say that it's rampant but but it's becoming, as I say, like if you have Bitcoin, people know it, you're becoming a public target.

Lianna Wallet, L-I-A-N-A, is one that you could learn how to or you could use to time lock your Bitcoin. You could attach that to your Sparrow, sorry, to your cold card and everything. So it works like that. It's open source, a whole nine yards, check it out. Learn how to time lock and do it. So that way there's just no way you can physically

move the Bitcoin or digitally move the Bitcoin until a certain time has passed, or a lot of blocks have been passed. And by doing so, your Bitcoin is protected. So it's more of a public service announcement. Learn how to time lock your corn. So wizardsardeen.com slash liana, I think is the website. And if you're ever questioning,

how much do Joey and Len really know about this stuff? You'll remember the first time we heard about this on the show was from, I think Mr. Arnone, right? So he came on, he was the first person to tell me about it. That's right. So if you're looking for, if you are trying to outsource some of your thinking, I don't recommend that obviously, but there's not really a better guy than Mr. Arnone. I don't think, you know, like this guy has been around.

He's, you know, maybe I'll call him an extremist, but I like him and I think he's an honest actor, which is the, those are the two most important things, whether I like somebody and whether I think they're honest. At least that's my metrics for deciding whether or not I should trust somebody or look into something they're doing. And Lima or Lienowal, it's like a nice UI too. Nice, easy, easy, gooey. The process for time locking itself is a fun learning experience and I recommend maybe

not going all in with anything at first, but that's the case for everything, right? Don't time-lock anything you're not willing to lose and try it out and see how you like it. I can't recommend it enough. The idea that you're going to subject yourself, we joke about this all the time on the show, okay? That Len and I take security very seriously. Not so seriously that we're not putting our faces out there,

but knowing my face or picking me up somewhere is not gonna be enough to get my Bitcoin. Because I've been around long enough to see these attacks over and over again. Len's been around long enough to see these attacks over and over again. It's gonna be a lot more difficult than that. And I think the more that Bitcoiners

start appreciating this, and also Len then the ease with which you can basically take yourself off the target list, more people are going to do it. I don't see why not. And as the world becomes more and more dangerous, thanks to certain policies being enacted all over the place, I would say to people that this is something that's non-negotiable. You have to have a second layer of protection to your Bitcoin to prevent the wrench attack. Wrench attackers not that bright, okay? And so what you don't want is to wind up in a situation where you're trying to reason with somebody that just doesn't care what you have to say. If the stuff is locked by code, it's not up to you, it's not up to them, and that's all

there is to it. The party's over before it even starts. So to me, it's like, think about doing this. Think about learning about it, then think about doing it. And there's tons of resources. Leanna has some good resources on the website, and I'm sure there's other stuff out there as well. I got a beauty of a story here, Joey.

This is a good one. It comes from Jasper County, Texas. Never heard of this place, but it's just Northeast or Northwest of Houston. And a family over there was duped into paying some $25,000 USD in Bitcoin to a scammer. And how this was stuff was, it's the stuff of fucking absolute legend. And the scammer claimed to be a government employee

and the family owed some 25K in fines. Right. So he was able to convince them, you know, you guys owe some fines. We need 25K to settle it. All right. You've been Bitcoin by the way. So they told the family to go to your local Bitcoin ATM. And it was, in this case, it was called a Bitcoin Depot ATM.

That was the name of it. Good damn. Yeah. case it was called a bitcoin depot ATM that was the name of it good day and yeah and they managed to deposit 25k into that fucking machine and the bitcoin was sent to the address provided by this camera and they realized they were had that you know shortly thereafter they contacted the police you know what happened this is fucking truly interesting the sheriff came by with the power tools fucking cut the thing open and recouped the money that was put in, right?

It was 25K. In fact, $32,000 was recouped in total. So around $7,000 was purchased by other folks out there. This seems rather, so a very popular Bitcoin ATM. But what's fucked about all this, the money, the 25K that the family put in, they gave it back to the family. Like, they gave it back to the family. Like the police gave it back to the family. But unless I got my facts wrong, right? You absolutely hate when people

who get conned get their money back. There's a victim here and the victim is the Bitcoin ATM company. Yeah. Because they're on the short end. They're the ones that sent the Bitcoin to the address. In terms of their obligation, they fulfilled it. The scammer got their Bitcoin. The idiot family got their money back. But these guys who should have collected the $25,000 US to have facilitated this transaction, they're out. They're out quite a bit of money.

What a fucking stupid story. Who the fuck has $25,000 cash just sitting around? You can't get it out of the bank, I'll tell you that. Exactly, how did you get it? So what the fuck are they doing? And not only that, they were convinced that they had to pay a $25,000 fine. So what are they doing?

They must be doing something shady. For somebody to have easily convinced them, you got to pay 25k. What the fuck is this, man? This is a funny story, number one. How would you not know that you had $25,000 no standing fines? I would have loved to have heard what those fines were for according to the scammers. How many parking tickets, how many outstanding water bills or whatever, like how is it possible that they thought they owed $25,000 to the local government? That's a story all on its own, number one. But number two, the Bitcoin ATM company, I don't know what the rules are here, but I do know that there's

attempts to stop scams from happening. For example, when you go to Bull Bitcoin to buy, what does it ask you before you get your buy-in address? Is this an address that you have? Are you sure this is your address? All these questions. And Bull used to have a full page banner on the old website Scammers are trying to get your Bitcoin

Make sure that this is an address you control that this is not a scam address that you are not getting had that you are Not getting social and whatever right they had that stuff shake pay same thing they have the same shit on their website I bet you Adam O'Brien over at Bitcoin Well has a screen on his ATMs that says, if this isn't an address you control, do not send your Bitcoin here. Make sure you're not getting scammed, blah, blah, blah. Bitcoin Depot, I'm guessing has the same thing,

unless they don't. And then my question is, what's the law around that? If there is a law that says you have to have that warning screen, or that the ATM owes some level of diligence warning warning screen or something similar and didn't perform that diligence and so owes the money then maybe it makes sense otherwise Len I'm with you and we are redundant on this topic I think that the ATM company gets the short end of the stick the guy who

made the mistake is reimbursed and does not learn a lesson. And the scammer makes out with the same value in Bitcoin anyway. So a lot of winners here, but the ATM company, not one of them. That's for sure. Another scam that took place or what's more of a hack in Iran. Now, I know there's other things going on in Iran. They've been taking it on a chin quite a bit this past week But that's one way to put it. Yeah One of their exchanges over there was hacked

yeah, and the exchange is called no bit X and apparently this is the first Iranian digital asset exchange market for trading Bitcoin and The top altcoins with This is according to them. Or so there was a hack that took place. Forty eight million dollars was siphoned from the exchange on June 18th. So this is a custodial exchange. People are trading or buying and just leaving it there thinking that it's safe. This is a perfect indication why you should not leave your Bitcoin anywhere.

I like bull Bitcoin because it's not going to still do you take it. It's immediately sent to your address. Don't never trust anybody to hold on to Bitcoin. In terms of the 48 million that was siphoned, this was 7 million users were impacted. And Iran has about 91 million people over there. That's including children and the very old. Did Ted Cruz tell you that? I just checked Google. I'm just... Do you not know that meme? No. Tucker and Ted Cruz. Tucker asking

Iran how many people live there or asking Cruz how many people live in Iran. He's like, I have no idea. And Tucker's like, you want to invade a country you don't know the population? You don't know anything about it. It's like, you know, with respect to this really matter if the US obviously it doesn't fucking matter. They got the fucking firepower to do everybody. But you know, there you go. So I know more than 91 million people. So anyways, the apparently was a pro Israeli group that is claiming responsibility for

this attack. And yeah, it's just another one of these where you hear about them all the time. Don't use any exchange that is holding on to your Bitcoin. I mean, if they are, if you do use one of them, just pull it off right away. Don't keep your Bitcoin on there. Don't trade. You're just asking yourself for fucking really problems in the end. Yeah. Put your Bitcoin cold storage on keys that were never generated in a place where it was touching online, always offline, all that bullshit. You're good. That's the

way I do it. I sleep well at night, but you know, everybody do what you want. Eventually you get burned. And at that point, like you say, you touch the stove when it's too hot, then you learn. But I'm trying to teach you from, you know, other people's experience. Learn from them, let them pay the price and you'll, then you learn. But I'm trying to teach you from other people's experience. Learn from them. Let them pay the price, and you'll benefit from that. Incredible. Sharing the knowledge. I don't want to bring this up again because it may hurt.

But do you remember a long time ago, you set up your cold card with not very high entropy? Oh, yeah. I remember, of course. I don't want to get into this. But I have this to give credit because you brought up that story. Yeah, we're forefront. And that was something like I learned from that. I learned my God when you do you set up your fucking cold

card, make damn sure spend time, man. Spend time. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of learning from others. Is that way I don't have to pay the price. So I'm trying to use that example for this. Look at these people that got ruined as a result of it. So don't do them. I think you're 100% right. And I'm glad I shared that story too. I think it turned out to be pretty important for a lot of people. And it's important not only to share those stories, but to pay attention to when they're shared and not just go on Twitter and dunk on people. Because you never know what mistake you will make in a rush,

what mistake you will make when you're not paying attention, what mistake you will make when you're on autopilot. I mean, how many people are driving every day on autopilot and make an error and don't even realize, you know, when they made it. You know, the sort of best thing to do to demonstrate this point, if you ask somebody about their drive to work, okay, my drive to work is like 10 minutes long, let's say. If you ask somebody about their drive to work, do you think they'd remember anything about it? Anything. They wouldn't remember anything about it because they're so just zoned out on autopilot

that they're not thinking about the turns, the signals, the time they had to break a little early, time they broke a little late, time they, you know. It's something that's not the ordinary if you remember. Exactly. And so once you start operating in Bitcoin at that level, you are on autopilot as well. And it's important that you don't wind up

on autopilot as well. And it's important that you don't wind up on autopilot in this thing. Because if you do, you will wind up hastily setting up a cold card and giving away, you know, what's probably now, then I don't know, 20 grand, something like that. It's gotta be a big number. And so, you know, I I'm pissed about that, but that mistake, you know, when it, the fact that it happened when it happened, saved me from doing it again and saved me from having other people do it. And so I'm better for it.

But yeah, at the time it was a fucking annoying. It was big time, a big time issue for me. And I told a few other people in my personal life and they're like, oh, Bitcoin's a scam. Not like more hassle. Right. And so, uh, yeah, just, you know, take your lessons when they happen to you.

And of course, take them when they happen to somebody else. It's invaluable and it's free advice. 100%. And it's, I don't want to say it was a good thing that happened to you, but if it did. It was a good thing on the whole then like, yeah, it's a net negative in the moment, but how could it not be a good thing on the whole?

Think of that was like four years ago or something, right? Like it was a long time ago now, three, four years ago. In the long run, I think it helps you because imagine if you were putting like more and more into that and for sure, for sure. So yeah, it's good to go through this early on. And so people out there learn how to set up your cold card correctly. I have a couple of stories, but I think we have time for one more. I can't believe we're sure. It was much longer than I thought it would be. We have tariffs obviously being imposed on China, Canada too. The United States is imposing it. And so one casualty of this tariff war are ASICs.

Something we don't really think much about because the majority of these, they're coming from Chinese based companies like Bitmain. And so these ASIC companies, they're trying to circumvent the tariffs, at least the tariff barrier by setting up shop within the United States and creating production facilities in the United States. So that's really cool. And that's, you know, I'm looking at that and it's not just getting around tariffs.

There's other benefits too. When they manufacture it there, think about it, the more majority of their sales are to United States. So in terms of shipping and Storage it's much less because you're shipping it locally and the lead time is gonna be much shorter So it's a lot better if it's done over there in the United States, right? And I'm wondering like in terms of the manufacturing though Like how much is gonna be done in the United States or that ships gonna be assembled somewhere else because I think TSMC is the one that does the chips right now. I don't think

they're gonna unless the chip X is gonna be moving stuff over. I don't know. There's a lot of moving parts here that I just don't know. But these ASIC companies, they do want to set up manufacturing within the United States, which I find it'd be cool. Maybe maybe there could be a time in the future. I don't know. They could they could just take it. It can nationalize it. Right. If, if, if they really, you know, if they look at either United States looks at Bitcoin

or more importantly, I think China as like an adversarial and like somebody that's just an enemy and it thinks they can really go south. They could take this and take it from themselves and utilize it for them. And I don't know. I think there's a lot of different things that could happen as a result. Probably not, just food for thought more than anything else. I want to see what happens with these tariffs in terms of like the new incentives that are going to drive manufacturing jurisdictions and materials used and things of this nature. It's funny, like people don't realize that incentives were such a huge part of the life that

Americans enjoy now in a way that they just had they just had no idea about in the past specifically when it relates to military like for example okay I just found this out a little while ago do you know where and why Silicon Valley became Silicon Valley in the United States? Fighter jets in the early American military were having trouble with components melting during flight missions. So they had to come up with a material that was both strong enough to withstand the heat, and also served their purpose in terms of circuitry and electronics and whatnot on board the ship. They ended up doing that with silicon

and so silicon became the hub and the sort of backbone for the technological revolution. It started in America because fighter jets needed it so that they didn't melt during missions. Ended up becoming the center of computers and whatnot, right? And so when you think about stuff like, okay, I gotta manufacture something that's exempt from tariffs and I might have to use different materials or whatever. Like that's how revolutions in technology start. Not Tim Cook giving a speech about, you know,

Apple Glass or whatever. Not Palmer Lucky talking about, you talking about the newest, latest and greatest in fucking napalming brown kids 100 million miles away. Those are part of it, but the real revolution starts based on necessity. And necessity is the mother of invention, as people like to say. I think that we kind of forget about this stuff. And some of the greatest stories in American ingenuity and innovation came from the weirdest, the weirdest starting spots and who knows Len maybe this is gonna be a weird starting spot. It's still so early.

These tariffs are what? 100 days old? 60 days old? Something like that? When was Liberation Day? Was it in April? Was it in May? I can't even remember. It seems like a long ago. It does seem like a long time ago but I'm pretty sure it was only like six, seven weeks so I don't know like that's know, talk about being early. You're early on this. Let's see what comes from these tariffs, taxes and late night press conferences from DJT. I think you know, you never know what's what's being born around the world as a result of these policies. I think that's it for the Bitcoin stuff. as a result of these policies. I think that's it for the Bitcoin stuff. Sure.

Okay. I think we as much longer than I thought we wouldn't, but I even have a good session. Good session. It's good. I'm glad you started while I was taking a shit. I'll explain some more about that in the second half of the show. Oh, I want to hear all about it. It's going to be exciting.

So in the meantime, take care of yourselves. Come back tomorrow if you're on audio, if you're on video or with us live. Don't go anywhere. We're not going anywhere. And we'll be right with you. Yeah. And please, time lock your Bitcoin. Do that.