The Canadian Bitcoiners Podcast - Bitcoin News With a Canadian Spin - Zac Guignard and Pablo Saxtron - Learning Bitcoin 2025, Government Control and the Important of Bitcoin | The CBP

Episode Date: July 18, 2025

FRIENDS AND ENEMIESThis week we're joined by Zac Guignard and Pablo Saxtron, two of the leaders of the Learning Bitcoin team, about the important of Learning Bitcoin, the issue with government control, talking to new Bitcoiners, and much more.Follow Zac and Pablo on X:https://x.com/zacguignardhttps://x.com/saxtron3000Buy a ticket to Learning Bitcoin 2025 with the code CBP for 20% off your ticket. We don't get any kickbacks, we just want to see you attend the conference and add value in your community afterward!Join us for some QUALITY Bitcoin and economics talk, with a Canadian focus, every Monday at 7 PM EST.   From a couple of Canucks who like to talk about how Bitcoin will impact Canada. As always, none of the info is financial advice. Website: ⁠www.CanadianBitcoiners.com⁠Discord: https://discord.com/invite/YgPJVbGCZX A part of the CBP Media Network: ⁠www.twitter.com/CBPMediaNetworkThis show is sponsored by: easyDNS - https://easydns.com EasyDNS is the best spot for Anycast DNS, domain name registrations, web and email services. They are fast, reliable and privacy focused. With DomainSure and EasyMail, you'll sleep soundly knowing your domain, email and information are private and protected. You can even pay for your services with Bitcoin! Apply coupon code 'CBPMEDIA' for 50% off initial purchase Bull Bitcoin - ⁠⁠https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/cbp⁠⁠ The CBP recommends Bull Bitcoin for all your BTC needs. There's never been a quicker, simpler, way to acquire Bitcoin. Use the link above for 25% off fees FOR LIFE, and start stacking today.

a threat. And one of the things that can't be attacked is your self-custody Bitcoin. And one of the things that can be attacked is the ETF. Can't be exposed to that. That's my view. It's not a good idea. And by the way, that'll hit MSTR too. It'll probably hit other stuff as well. Friends and enemies, welcome back Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. Friends and enemies, welcome to the CBP. Want to be better informed? Listen to Len and Joey. Spots is taking care of right off the top Oh Bitcoin and easy DNS the media is feeding the slop. It doesn't matter what topics discussed quality entertainment and information You can trust

Information you can trust send the guys some value boost them them with some stats. Bitcoin is a scarcity asset. I mean, it's just a fact. Geopolitical, national down to the local cloud. Friends and enemies, welcome back to the Canadian Bitcoiners podcast, The Mighty CBP. We got two special friends tonight, Zach and Paul Lowe. We're going to be talking about learning Bitcoin. This is the second year for learning Bitcoin. I don't want to call it a conference because I think it's more than that.

There's no bullshit altcoins, no bullshit marketing, no bullshit clickbait, and no bullshit content, most importantly. It's all signal and that's difficult to do these days, obviously, in the conference space. The Canadian guys, I think, do it really well. Bitcoin Magazine, I think they're fading a bit. BTC Prague, I don't know. Some of these other adjacent conferences. I think the bigger the budget, the more likely you have to find those dollars somewhere.

And so you get it from advertising and other places that maybe Bitcoin, especially the Maxi crowd, aren't so thrilled with. But these guys don't have to worry about that. They've been doing a great job. They have another big rip coming up this year and we're really looking forward to talking to the two of them. But first, as always, the sponsors, EasyDNS. What can you say about EasyDNS that has not already been said about Penicillin or the Wheel? The best place for you to buy a domain, register a domain, host a domain. Mark is your friendly neighborhood registrar. They have tons of stuff over there. Everything from WordPress plugins for your blog, for your

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CBP I think is the code there's a link in the description anyways and you get 25% off all your fees for life can't beat that let's bring on the boys uh Zach and Pablo guys I got um Invisalign yesterday and so that was the first like real non-stop talking I've done since I got the retainers I gotta tell you the inside of my lips are on fucking fire but uh I'm not otherwise doing too bad that's obviously unrelated to the show I had to get that out there though How are you guys doing? Good to see you guys. So this is these are like two opposite setups Here we got one man in front of an exposed brick wall one man in the middle of nowhere I don't know. This is a lot of trees back there. Zack. How you guys doing? Pretty good pretty good Joe nice French by the way as well. I gotta say shout out there my francophone crew

But yeah, well, we got a lot to talk about. So don't worry about the invisible line. Zach, how you doing buddy? I'm doing well. I'm glad you're doing better than you, at least it sounds like. Yeah, listen, I'm going to bounce back. It's going to be fine. People online are saying the 22 hours a day thing might be a bit of a stretch. So we'll see how that goes in a few weeks. But yeah, for now, I mean, we're going to struggle through. Listen, we got to talk about learning Bitcoin. So maybe the best place to start is tell me a bit about what learning Bitcoin is. I said in the intro, I don't want to call it a conference. I don't view it as a conference. What do you guys describe it as? Tell me a bit about it.

Zach, you want to jump in, calm that one for us? Yeah, why not? It does say director of comms, I guess, if I know my name. It's a little too professional. I see you just got bull Bitcoin and hashtag meltup. I could have been way more casual with that. But you know what? Good to get the learning Bitcoin name out there, get that on the screen, whatever. Yeah, yeah, you know what, Joey, in many ways I agree with you. And I was thinking the same thing about a month ago when I left the Oslo Freedom Forum. Very similar situation where you have a very high signal event, Bitcoin only, that you leave it and you say to yourself like, this is not a conference. You don't really have the words to necessarily describe it.

It's something new. It's a feeling, it's a vibe, whatever you wanna call it. But learning Bitcoin, you know, if we wanted to use the word conference is a Bitcoin education conference, full stop. It is a place for anyone everywhere to learn about Bitcoin in a safe, beginner friendly way. But I'll also preface this with saying that it is a opportunity for Bitcoiners

to come out on the west coast of Canada and go to the biggest Bitcoin conference in the area. So as much as we are, we are very much catering to both the people that are yet to be Bitcoiners and the existing Bitcoiners. I think it's a really nice blend. You know, there's there's a chance for like mentorship in that way. It's a chance for you to bring your friends, your family, you know, the Bitcoin curious people that you know out to learn about Bitcoin and not just the theoretical of Bitcoin, but actually how to use this thing. That's one of the biggest struggles,

I think a lot of people have when they come into Bitcoin is they hear all these crazy things about Bitcoin. It's gonna change the world. It's gonna do this in the future. It's gonna demonetize all these assets, da da da da da. It's gonna be the global reserve currency. And that kind of just sounds crazy, especially if you've never in your life

sent a Bitcoin transaction. You effectively don't even know what this thing is yet, but you're being told that it's going to take the world by storm and change everything. I agree, it is going to change everything. But it helps a lot when you are able to provide a bit of more of like a curated hands-on experience alongside a lot of that theoretical. So that's one of the things learning Bitcoin is going to be doing this year. So last year, it was a one-day conference.

We had a combination of workshops and speakers and panels all crammed in that one day, some of it running simultaneously. One of the biggest pieces of feedback we received post conference was that people wanted to be at the workshops and wanted to see the speakers and panels at the same time. But you know, one of the things Bitcoin doesn't fix is you can't be two places at once. People missed out on some of the stuff. So that was a big piece of feedback and that was a big inspiration behind why we made this conference. Two days this year, beginning with the hands-on workshops that we're going to be hosting. We haveon workshops that we're gonna be hosting.

We have various ones that we're gonna be doing very similar to last year. We're gonna be covering the history of money. We're gonna be talking about proof of work and hashing, transaction fees, unspent transaction outputs, how to buy Bitcoin, how to accept Bitcoin, how to put Bitcoin in cold storage, all of the basics. People are gonna be able to learn how to do that.

So your grandma can learn how to do it. It's gonna be broken down very simply. And then the following day, we're going to jump into the more of the theoretical side of learning Bitcoin, which is also going to be super fun and for a completely different manner we've got some great speakers coming. But that's sort of just like the gist of what learning Bitcoin is. Pablo, do you have anything to add to that? No, that's it.

That's pretty much everything you need to be able to catch up on from last year to this year. There's been a lot of good changes. We're doubling down. So it's a one day to a two day. But to come back to your question there, Joey, as well, like, is it a conference? I think Bitcoin conferences have changed over the last few years. You know, if you go way back and see that famous photo of Antonopoulos sat in a room of 12 people to Vegas, like what is a Bitcoin conference nowadays? What's the reason to show out? I've been fortunate enough to go to a lot of different events over the last few months and each one has its own merits for sure. But in terms of adoption and evangelization, which is where I

specialize, they're not hitting the mark, in my opinion. There might be great key speakers on the main stage. There might be lots of booth bunnies and free merch and stuff, or even business dev. I think a lot of people are showing up to Vegas now, people who work in the industry, they're showing up to just meet people, have their cocktails, get the business deals done. But in terms of getting people off zero, there's not a lot of moves to do that. There are other organizations like My First Bitcoin who are doing the on conference, which is something that's also happening prior to learning Bitcoin. So we've got a three day kind of rollout here as well. But the way I see this is it's a plus one event. You know, if there's somebody in your life who you've been talking to about Bitcoin, and

you're not sure where to start, they don't want to come to the meetup, they can't make it. If you just want to go from A to Z all the way through, then learning Bitcoin is the way to be able to get them off zero. And they can ask the questions and have a consensus by, it's not just the step brother. It's not just my neighbor. It's not just my colleague talking about Bitcoin. There's a whole room of Bitcoiners here welcoming us on board. And then they can kind of get a feel for what Bitcoin is and how it's working in everyone's

lives as well. So I think we have to redefine what a conference looks like to be able to push this adoption thing, because the big show and the fireworks is great for the Bitcoiners, like spend your, spend your sats, just getting to some nice destination. But if we want this thing to be accessible and available to everyone, we have to be able to, to, to pivot on what a conference is. So in my opinion, yes, it is a conference, but it's what conferences are going to look like rather than what conferences have looked like. So I like this.

These are good responses, boys. I know for me, looking at what you guys did last year, looking at the schedule this year and some of the rollout communications, there's a fine line, I think finer than one may feel for a first time Bitcoin or a first time Bitcoin conference attendee. You know, you could go down the road of pure corpo-speak and have guys in suits talking about the importance of Bitcoin treasury strategies and Bitcoin torque and other nonsense. That's probably too far. But then if you go too far the other way and just have a bunch of guys talking about raw milk and creatine, probably also too far in the other direction.

So you gotta strike a balance there between what's important in Bitcoin, some of the culturally adjacent to Bitcoin topics. You can't avoid those conferences. I mean, you sit down next to someone you don't know, and the first thing the guy asks you is whether or not you have laser eyes in your Twitter profile. These things are unavoidable in conference settings.

But being able to strike a balance with what's on stage, having people learn a bit about the technicals and the capabilities of Bitcoin, IRL, I think this is really good. And I'm happy to hear you guys are doing this second time. I know last year you guys were excited. It seems like you're even more excited this time around. Talk to me maybe about the team involved in this. There's quite a few people involved in a conference, and so there's going to be some people who are, you know, officially involved. Zach's got a cool title. There's going to be some people who are unofficially involved.

They are next to involved. They are involved with people who are involved. But there's never just a handful of people who do something like this. So talk to me about the folks who are supporting you, what they're doing and what we should expect them to bring to the table. Yeah, sure. I just want to start by leading things up with Tristan. Tristan Swift, who's kind of headed this up. He's the brainchild behind all of this.

I met Tristan at the Bitcoin conference in Montreal last year and we just sat down. I'd never really seen them my first Bitcoin diploma and He was on a stand for those guys and we just sat down and we honestly spent about an hour and a half Just going through what our vision of education was where some of the gaps are what it's gonna look like to legitimize Educational movements and then he said to me like on the lowdown like I'm thinking about doing this thing called learning Bitcoin Since when I first heard about it and for me who was looking to find my place, moving up from customer support and doing like meetups, I wanted to really like show my skills as a teacher. I wanted to really showcase that and redesign Bitcoin education.

So we just hit it off straight away. And it was something that I got fired up from from minute one. So we kind of panned it out. And he was like coming over to Victoria, which is where it was last year. It in Vancouver this year as we level up. He's like coming through to Victoria. We're gonna pilot this thing together So I've been working in close partnership with Tristan who's brought on all of the other team as well So a solid team but shout out to Tristan first of all And then Zach you want to talk about yourself and Danny maybe and your roles in the team totally. Yeah, I mean To your point earlier though, Joey, before I jump into that, we may not have been

talking about raw milk and creatine, but we did have John Donahue with bare feet on the stage. Where does that fall into the balance? I don't know. It's closer to raw milk and creatine than the treasuries. You're right. It is. I'll tell you that.

Yeah. That's probably better than the suits. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I'll say learning Bitcoin is a very small team. It was a very similar situation. Tristan approached me maybe about eight months before we did the first conference in October in Victoria last year. At the time, I was the president of the Bitcoin Club at the University of Victoria.

So we, you know, leveraging my student network and his connections in the space, as well as Daniela Villalba, who is the event director. She came on around the same time as I did. He, Tristan sort of approached both of us because we were involved both with the club at UVic. And I was very skeptical to begin with, to be honest with you. I was thinking to myself, and this skepticism came from the experience of running a Bitcoin club at UVic

and getting to host meetups and educate young and open minds and still struggling to get people to come out to learn about Bitcoin, right? Like education is a tough thing. I mean, you're, especially when you're, you need to buy a ticket to attend something. So it's like, Amy to teach you about this. I guess that's university. I'll tell you what, going to learning Bitcoin for a day is probably worth more than your entire university degree. I say that with some of the bachelors in economics. That might be a hot take, but you know what? Put in 100 hours into Bitcoin, come back to me. We can talk about this

more. Yeah, we're a small team with a big dream, is what I've liked to say over the last little while. So it's myself and Danny and Tristan, whose idea this was originally, and Pablo as well is going to be co-host alongside myself for the first day, I'll be the second day. And then we also have Fussler from the Vancouver Bitcoin community. But kind of unofficially in many ways, Learning Bitcoin can be thought of as like very much a community project. We have people that are not officially part of Learning Bitcoin who are playing a very big role, helping us out, providing venues for us to do these things. You know, Funk Coffee Bar is another one, absolutely critical component of the conference.

You know, a coffee bar that accepts Bitcoin, they're going to be hosting the Proof of Wine women's brunch. So it's like, you know, we have the community is very much supporting it. A lot of the Vancouver Bitcoiners are either speaking at the event or are supporting the event in some way. So, yeah, and of course, you know, we try to involve, we're trying a lot to involve the university clubs as well. So UBC has a Bitcoin club, UVic has a Bitcoin club. So getting students involved from those places is also a big part of it. So, yeah, yeah.

It's a it's quite an endeavor, endeavor to involve all these different people from different expertise silos. Obviously, it's important. But one thing I think the sort of general, let's say the newer Bitcoiners don't know is that Bitcoin is really for people of all walks of life, all career paths. And so to me, it's not surprising to hear that you were able to like Corral, Danielle, Tristan, these guys all have other jobs, right? They're doing other stuff,

but they're all willing to come and loan their expertise to a Bitcoin conference. And then on top of that, you have some other great people that I know you had speak last year, and there's a lot of good Bitcoiners on the West Coast there. You got Adam, and I think Deedles is out there,

and a handful of others as well. These people are quality people before Bitcoin and are adding to Bitcoin in a way that I don't think a lot of new Bitcoiners realize is going on. Let's talk a bit about the scheduling you guys have. So you mentioned a split of two days. One day sort of practical, one day we'll call it theoretical or some, you know, some more broad discussion about Bitcoin and what it can do and what we should be thinking about for the future of Bitcoin. You have some sponsors here. I'm just kind of looking at the tweet that Trish put together and the website. So sponsors here that I know obviously and like Bull Bitcoin, huge.

We'll talk about them in a bit, but you guys have coin-oss too. The coin-oss team is the most like yin and yang to people I think I've ever met in my life. Cole is like constantly like pedal to the metal. He's got the gravelly voice. He's constantly trying. He's like, Mr. Always Be Closing. I can't remember who's this, the dev. I can't remember his name now. Adam. Yeah. And like these guys are yin and yang, but together they've put together a pretty good product here.

So you got the coin-ass guys, you got bull, who else you got? What are they going to be contributing to that sort of technical hands-on day? In terms of the technical hands-on day, that's going to be my, so I'll dry ho I'll dry run hosting it right now. Um, so basically like my vision of this thing last year, we had a one day and I was in a back room whilst the main stage was going on. So main stage was pretty much as you, as you'd expect talks, panels, firesides, keynotes, slides, whatever.

Um, but the back room, because I wasn't sure on on football, I organized for something that was going to be like a casino floor. So you know, you go to a casino, you can sit down, you can play roulette, you can play poker, you can play blackjack. And when your games up, you stand up and change game. So I kind of set like 12, I think we had nine different stations with volunteers all from the bull Bitcoin mission, who showed out, they were our foot soldiers, just helping people get through the activities. And it was like a rotation throughout the day, nice and fluid. But with day one and

two coming in, what I'm trying to do now is to design something which is more a flow. So we're going to start off with, like Zach said, the history of money, we're going to get into the specifics of why we need sound money. Then we're going to get right into the practical of, okay, what is hashing? How do we use it? And how can we strike up a hot wallet? So I want basically from workshop a in the morning till workshop, maybe K in the afternoon, I want sats to move from one talk to the next. So we're moving from theoretical to practical to buying with bull to sending to a hot wallet, to sending to to a cold wallet to consolidating UTX

Also, in fact throughout the entire day sats will flow like from your hot to your cold or from your exchange to your wallet So I'm trying to build something up that kind of follows on because what I want to do is be able to pass the mic To the next speaker. Like you said the coin us guys They're probably going to be going up after Francis from bull So I want Francis to talk about the exchange how how to buy, how to sell, what works. Send it into the Bull wallet, but then be like, hey, if you're a merchant, you can strike up a point of sale with Coinos. Here's how you do it.

Okay. So charge your neighbor $1 and send them a dollar across. So we're actually going through the experiential learning part of it, which is what everything misses in Bitcoin education. You can understand a lot of stuff on stage and you can take some notes if you're proactive, but by the time you get home, it just gets thrown to the bottom of the pile and you say one day. Well that one day is day one right now so we're going to try and make sure that that happens and that people can show up and actually experience using Bitcoin. So I'm really stoked

about being able to have like a linear progression because as a teacher I'm all about progressions of learning, making sure people can move through the steps as necessary. So it's a totally different challenge. Actually, they're going to be echoes of last year, but just because of the structure of the thing, it's going to be a whole new challenge. I'm really excited about it to be able to piece everything together. And by that point, by the end of day one, people will be like, I never took the time to do that. Even Bitcoiners who might be like consolidation, how does that work?

I know a lot of people are like, I should get around to that. Well, we're going to do a workshop on how UTXOs and fees work And then after that we can show you how to consolidate and you can do it there live with volunteers from the mission again Shout out running around and making sure like you've got a co-pilot throughout the experience So this is good for everyone. Like I was saying it's a plus one event So even Bitcoiners who are thinking about showing up? I mean like sounds pretty basic. You might actually get some real class time

with some real class people who can workshop you through something you've yet to do. Also, if you've done everything and you've got the whole setup, you feel like you're on top of stuff, I want you to be able to come and copy what I do at your meetup, at your local coffee spot, at your sports team, whatever.

Like I'm gonna open source everything. So the idea is that if I do something you think you can do, well, here's the lesson plan, here's the materials, here's the list of stuff I bought from the dollar store. Go to your local town, local village, local wherever, and try it out yourself. I want to model what education can look like and show people how we can just not gather together

to grab beers and talk about the latest things on Twitter. I want people to be equipped with like, yo, I think I could handle explaining UTXOs to my 12 year old daughter and friends, right? Like this is how it needs to work. So that's pretty much day one. In terms of day two, people are going to be able to catch a lot more on day two because they've had the prerequisites answered in day one. So they'll get a lot more value out of it. So that's kind of a structuring point. Exactly. I want to ask you about day two, but the big question is, uh, how many hours have you allotted for details to talk about tartaria? And, uh,

has that stock already sold out? Go ahead. I'm going to have to like, uh, I'm going to have to keep people short on stuff as well. Like, uh, my biggest concern is Francis. You know what Francis is like, you had him on the podcast. He's got one hour to basically like, wheel people through. There's actually a room, like the show has a number of different rooms.

There's actually one that I always keep open. Francis is in there right now. He's been in there for a couple nights. Bring him on in. He's still talking. Yeah, he hasn't stopped. Yeah. More echo, more echo.

Yeah, exactly. Talk to me about day two. What are you expecting on day two? It's hard to run by the way, hard to run technical side, also hard to run the chat slash talking slash because everyone wants to play their greatest hits and you got to stop them. You can't be doing your greatest hits at a conference. Yeah.

So I mean, it's a good thing I have lots of experience in this area at this point. For those that don't know, I work full time at HRF, outside of learning Bitcoin, which is just my passion project for free. And so we do a lot of events and I've been the timer guy in multiple situations before and it's like, yeah, you need to get off, like you're cut off. Cause ultimately like when it comes to programming

and everything's a lot of times, like you do kind of have to be very strict about that stuff. You're cut off. Because ultimately, when it comes to programming and everything's allotted times, you do have to be very strict about that stuff. So yeah, I'll be the guy on day two between the speakers introducing, saying a couple things after, trying not to look dumb. I don't know. It was pretty natural last year.

I'm excited for the flow of that. Yeah, for starters, I should have mentioned this when you asked about the team as well. And I mentioned all the team and I mentioned the community. But what I didn't mention is that this conference will also not be possible without the sponsors behind it. Pablo, you mentioned a few of them there. This year, we're welcoming Coin Cards as our stage sponsor for the first time. Coin Cards is a place where you can actually shop for like mobile top-ups and gift cards and vouchers for like various retailers You can pay in Bitcoin no KYC. So for the private privacy advocates

this is a way to get gift cards in Bitcoin with revealing your all of your personal information to China and Sorry, I just had to say that And sorry, I just had to say that. And then of course, we also have Irene, who's actually gonna be our coffee sponsor this year. So there's gonna be free coffee this year, which I think is gonna be a huge thing. I remember I had to get my mom to go grab me a Starbucks

last time, about halfway through my MCing. I was literally crashing. So I'm glad that we're gonna have free coffee. For those of you who don't know, Irene is a Bitcoin miner They do some amazing mining powered entirely by renewable energy. So really happy to bring them on this year And then perhaps my favorite sponsor though. This is completely biased is HRF So HRF is actually gonna be involved this year. We have speakers coming from HRF beyond myself.

They're also going to be sponsoring the speakers dinner as well. So one of the things I was going to mention is that one of the cool things about learning Bitcoin is that, you know, it's a conference where you can go and actually still meet the speakers. That is not a reality. Most of the big conferences these days, you days. If you go to the Bitcoin conference, you are not meeting Michael Saylor. Maybe you are, probably not. Maybe you wanted to talk to JD Vance anyway, so that was more your thing. I don't know.

Doesn't matter, learning Bitcoin's for everybody. But it's still at a cozy, it's a smaller vibe. A few hundred people. So it's totally possible to meet your heroes, if you will, though you shouldn't have any heroes in Bitcoin. You Kelly is proving that right now to all of us, but we can get into that in a little bit. But in general, yeah, super excited for day two, we have an amazing lineup of speakers, we're bringing in BTC sessions. This is like, in my opinion, he's, he has set the bar as a world class Bitcoin

educator. I don't know if there's anyone better than him. There's many people that are doing an amazing job as well, but truly he has a tutorial for everything. He actually helps us at HRF run our financial freedom workshops alongside Anna Chekhovich, who is the financial director for Alexei Navalny's Anti-Corruption Foundation in Russia, which is a not-profit using Bitcoin because they can't use traditional banking systems because Russia has completely cut them off.

So that's a perfect example of activism and human rights powered by Bitcoin. That's a lot of the work we do at HRF. So just plugging that in there for fun. But we're also welcoming the mayor of Vancouver. Kenny. Through the conference, Ken Sim. So, I mean, this is, you know, this the mayor of Vancouver, Kenny, through the conference, Ken Sim. So I mean, this is, you know, this is one of the if we're going to bring politics into

Bitcoin, I like that it's this local. Let me just say that I was pretty upset to see. And maybe this is just me. You know, I looked at the Bitcoin conference this year and like the entire headlining image was just politicians all from one side of the political aisle. And I have absolutely nothing wrong with those people coming to speak at Bitcoin conferences, but I thought it was weird how much they were pushing just like an entirely political agenda. There's an election campaign stop for the Republicans. Yeah, basically. Like, you know,

I was like, where are the cipher punks? Where's where the economists or whatever, like, you know, I was like, where are the cypher punks? Where's, where are the economists or whatever? Like, you know what? It just felt like it like was a departure from a lot of the like the grassroots education and people they've had in previous years. So, you know, I, you know, in many ways learning Bitcoin is a place for everyone. There is no, we're not gonna have any political views,

but you know, having someone like Ken Sim, who in this year came out as, you know, having someone like Ken Sim, who in this year came out as you know, a Bitcoiner and has been trying to, you know, push forward favorable regulation towards Bitcoin in the city of Vancouver. This is a big part of why we're doing learning Bitcoin in Vancouver. It's emerging as a very Bitcoin friendly city. Thanks to people like Ken Sim, thanks to people, the people behind coin OS who have onboarded over 100 merchants in Vancouver. Thanks to people like Fusler who are who have onboarded over a hundred merchants in Vancouver.

Thanks to people like Fussler who are doing an amazing job cultivating that sense of community, throwing block parties, having meetups all the time at Funk Coffee Bar. You know, it's amazing. So really excited to welcome Ken Sim. I'm hoping that I get to meet him. I haven't met him yet, but I'm hoping that this will give me the opportunity to I'd love to pick his brain a little bit, as I'm sure you know, many people that are going to be going to the conference will want to do as well. And then we've got Scott Dittles and said bunny coming back again, they absolutely crushed it last year. They were two of the headliners. These are two people who just have a gift for explaining Bitcoin in a beginner friendly way.

I mean, Seb, for example, and his book, The Hidden Cost of Money, he does an amazing job explaining the debt-based monetary system we live in and what that means for us and where Bitcoin fits into that and why it's so important in a situation like this. So, you know, that's like very, that's a very important area of knowledge that you need to understand to be able to then understand the significance of Bitcoin. So really happy Seb is coming back. Scott as well, he has his book, The Dow of Bitcoin also amazing. I loved his presentation last time.

He's such a chill guy. I'm really excited for him to get to speak again. We'll see how long it is. I don't know how much time he's actually allotted for, but I remember last year he was saying how he wanted like 45 minutes next year or something. So we'll see what Tristan settled for. We'll for sure have a countdown clock on stage. And I'll be like off to the side, like, I don't know, like flashing zeros with my hands or something. I haven't decided how I'll communicate that. But yeah, so that'll be like off to the side like I don't know like flashing zeros with my hands or something I I haven't decided how I'll communicate that but um

Yeah, so that that'll be great as as Pablo mentioned Francis is also coming from bull Bitcoin Really excited to welcome him. He didn't make it last year But bull Bitcoin was a bit has been a big part of learning Bitcoin as well So really happy to see him coming out this year And then as I was saying our Smalu isalu is gonna be coming. He's the operations lead for the financial freedom team at HRF. So he helps put on some of the most world-class Bitcoin events, the global Bitcoin summit, the Oslo Freedom Forum.

So really excited that he's actually gonna be joining us in Vancouver as well. He's gonna be speaking. He's just got a great perspective. Really excited to like bring in that, the financial freedom angle of Bitcoin. You know, it was present last year, but you know, like really driving home the point of financial freedom and also, you know, maybe helping people check their

financial privilege a bit and realizing that, you know, like Bitcoin is for Canadians, it's for Americans, but you know, the 75%, the 6 billion people living under an authoritarian regime need Bitcoin, you know, 2345, 10 times more than an authoritarian regime need Bitcoin, you know, two, three, four, five, 10 times more than you do even. So, you know, understanding the global context of Bitcoin and where that the demand for it is really gonna come for beyond just being an investment here in the West. So really excited that Arsh is coming.

My boss, Ila N'Azario is also gonna be joining us. She's not gonna be speaking, but she will be at the conference. So the HRF presence will be strong this year. Really excited for that. I think it's just such a powerful angle to talk about Bitcoin at. On that same sort of theme,

Will Kasserin from Domest is going to be joining us. So we've got, we're expanding to include not just Bitcoin, but broader freedom technologies like Nostr, which is a decentralized social media. For those of them not aware, it's so much more than that, but that's a very easy way to explain it. But Will is going to come up. He built Domest, which is a client for Nostr.

So he's going to talk about Nostr, why it's important, talk a little bit about Domest. I think that's going to be a really great addition to the programming. I mean, having someone, you know, like showing, talking about Bitcoin, but like not talking about Bitcoin in a way I think that's a very powerful also with all the censorship going on in social media like everyone understands That's a problem. You know, what is the solution people still think it's these like, you know Decentralized and name only solutions like blue sky or whatever Nostra is the only decentralized social media or social protocol if you will So, you know being able to kind of like cut through the noise in that sense, I think will be really powerful.

So super excited that he's come in. We've also got Anil Patel, who does some really great like beginner Bitcoin graphics. He wrote the he has the Bitcoin handbook, which is like breaking down core Bitcoin concept through visualization. I love that. He's a great guy. He's going to he's a perfect kind of person to be talking to pre coiners. So really glad that he's coming. And then my good buddy Roger Wang is also going to be joining us again this year. So he's the author of Wooden Mao Whole Bitcoin. And he just has a very interesting perspective

on Bitcoin. He's also a journalist for Forbes. He's you know, he's helped out HRF quite a bit as well with in regarding central bank digital currencies. So I'm hoping maybe he'll touch on that as well so people can understand what CBDCs are, which actually is a good segue. I was gonna say, you know, we've got this new government with a central banker, now prime minister, and you know what's funny is when he got elected, and I'm not going to take any political views right now, but when he got elected, I said, he's a central banker. I won't be surprised if we see some progress on central bank digital currencies.

Lo and behold, at that time, Canada had shelved the idea of a central bank currency. They are now researching it again. They are now putting out papers about CBDCs again. This has happened within months of Carney coming into power. There's also this Bill C2, which I'm sure you guys have also familiar with, is trying to basically criminalize cash transactions over $10,000. So really, you know, this is a really good time to learn about the alternatives out there to learn about financial freedom, how Bitcoin provides financial freedom, and all these speakers are going to do a great job of helping you understand that alongside how to use that in day one with Pablo. So, you know, CBDCs, all of this stuff, like it's just awareness is the first

step to understanding the threat that it poses And so yeah, I'm hoping we can kind of have some some topics on that as well. The CBD sees thing is nuts to me I mean, this is not conference related But yeah, you're right the the position papers from BoC did stop I think about a year and a half ago Yeah, they sent out some some kind survey to, I don't know who probably has like the group of people. Uh, they played the stats pretty well, but even their played stats came back saying like people don't want it.

They shelved it, but these things will keep coming back. No one wants it because they're starting, like, I think even the sort of least connected least online people are starting to understand, like to your point, Zach, that $10,000 transaction thing, you know, that's cumulative, cumulative, not, it's not one transaction. On like an annual basis or? It's vague. The language is vague.

Yeah. So that's even more dangerous than I even interpret it. It's incredible. You know, like, and so people I think are, you know, there's a term coined by somebody, I forget who, but it's often used by Hervoy Morich over on geopolitics and empire, the algorithm ghetto. I think a lot of Canadians don't realize that they're slipping into this algorithm ghetto at basically every turn.

Every time they interact with the internet, it's algorithm of brainwashing them and filling the dopamine up till it's overflowing and then you can't even take a shit without doom scrolling and you're like 20 years old. Now you're talking about on top of that, having to use money that's monitored and taxed basically at a whim, that you're only allowed to spend on certain things at certain times. And people can say all they want about, you know, this is a conspiracy theory.

I would just, I would posit to you that control over the individual has only ever gone one way over the course of history. And the only time that it reverses is through bloodshed. And so if you want that outcome, keep using these dollars, keep using CBDCs. If you want to be a peaceful protester, and maybe get rich along the way, Bitcoin is the thing that is going to do that for you. And it's not about drug dealers, it's not about Silk Road,

it's not about any of this stuff. It's about, I have a right to privacy and individualism as a citizen of a modern Western democracy, okay, in name at least. And the idea that the default should be 100% 24-7 surveillance of my transactions and the things I say and the things I type. I mean, you guys have seen these other bills, I'm sure. It's funny, at eight o'clock, I'm going to record another show with Len. We're probably going to talk about this, but there's all kinds

of rules now around what the government can ask for from your bank, your credit card provider, your cell phone provider, your ISP without a warrant and without telling you. They can open your mail for 60 days if they think they have something on you without telling you. If you think that this is gonna somehow just reverse on its own or roll up on its own,

you haven't been paying attention for the last, I don't know, 100,000 years, whatever. The number is not small. And so for people who don't get that, a conference like Learning Bitcoin is about protecting you. It's not about selling you a dream. It's not about getting your vote.

It's not about any of that shit. It's about, do you want to know how to use money that's going to protect you from the sort of creeping Leviathan panopticon that's lurking around the corner at all times? If that's what you want, you've got to attend a conference like this. What else are you guys thinking in terms of your concerns?

I mean, you're obviously looking at the landscape, legal, political, economic. When you're thinking about what the speakers are going to talk about, which speakers to get, what are the themes that you guys look at? Did you look at stuff like, you know, inflation is obviously a lie. Everyone knows that though. I'm glad to hear HRF is playing a role. That's good to hear, Zach and Pablo. I'm glad that they're going to be there. What are the themes that you guys look at this year? And give me a bit of

background about, you know, maybe what things you thought about doing and just left on the cutting room floor. I just want to jump in because I want to say this from the start as a guy from the East coast organizing Montreal, Quebec, kind of Toronto, Ontario, Central. Heading out to the West coast is a real honor. Whatever you've done out there to kind of build has taken a long time and the fruits of the labor are now showing with merchant adoption. So one of the things in terms of your question and things to feature on in this inflation high, failing state kind of society and decline situation we seem to be heading towards, like supporting local businesses is more important than now than ever. Every single aspect of any economic news that we hear in Canada, whether it be tariffs or inflation, they're all hitting the local businesses and that's the bloodline

of our economy. So I think being able to have local Bitcoin adopting merchants at the venue, shout out to Privatowine, shout out to Funk Coffee, shout out to Fussler and all of the Bitcoin guys in BTC Van who've built this thing, I think just to experience like a collective gathering of businessmen and ladies and small family businesses is super essential because we can help ourselves out as a sovereign individual. We can protect our families and look after our families, but the first thing we can do as an outreach economically and peacefully is to be able to spend our money in places on services and products that deserve it. You know, cash is king and you do vote with your cash. If you can vote with sound money

on sound business, I think that's a super nice gesture to be able to make that doesn't involve having to paint some sign and stand outside some building so no one can look at you and listen to you. Right? It's an active, active gesture. So because the digital creep is real to come back to your CBDC thing, you know, I think it's it's something that people don't see, but the digital creep because it's there, it's slowly see but the digital creep because it's there It's slowly advancing bit by bit

So that's also a problem when it comes to education is seeing that Bitcoin is a tool to be able to increase those freedoms passively So I think the best thing you can do after you stack and after you learn how to custody Is then start to spend on local business? So I'm really happy to be able to be meeting local businesses for the second time. Happy that the mayor's on board, but I want the mayor not to just see the Bitcoiners, but see his local businesses making news. So that'd be dope to just be like, yo, did you know all these business people are making these moves on their own? This is the way it works. We're not going to wait for Ottawa or Carney or some bill to

pass. It's, you know, your rights are yours until they're taken from you. You have to use them or lose them. And we still have a right to spend freely, even if they're trying to creep that at $10,000 and bring it down. We can spend our Bitcoin freely and we'll do so. So, yeah, that's the... I'm happy to have all these merchants on board. Zach. Yeah. To your question, Joey,

I kind of think that we sort of like think of the conferences in like, when it comes to Bitcoin, it's like the what the how and the why that's what we're trying to answer for people in this conference right now. So the what what is Bitcoin? Right? The how how do I buy some? How do I spend it? How do I hold it?

And the why you know, that can be inflations that can be CBDC's that can be bill C2. That can be a mil admire to other reasons right? You need an actual savings account or you just want to diversify your portfolio, or you're a young student struggling to get by and you want to use the best savings vehicle that you can possibly use so that one day you can actually afford a home, you know, like kind of basically fitting all the speakers and the workshops into answering the what, the how, and the why of Bitcoin and delivering a complete answer on all of those I think is kind of how we think about structuring it and picking speakers and whatnot. Yeah, I want to jump in as well. I'm just looking at the list of speakers as well, and I was saying this at the rodeo that went on recently in Calgary, like here in Canada, we have everyone we need to make this thing work. They're like, you know, national pride is down the toilet, to be honest at the moment, like post-election it's been a, you know, whatever side you're on.

Nobody's, uh, nobody's like raising the hands, fuck the elbows, right? But nobody's, nobody's raising their hands over Canada right now. But if you actually look at the panel here, like we've got everybody we need. We've got some stone cold killers when it comes to Bitcoin education. We've got some macro economists, we've got some businesses. Like there are people coming in from overseas

and we're happy to welcome everybody to Vancouver. But I do think there's a strong Canadian identity behind the panel here. We've got Francis. We've got Ben We've got the mayor of Vancouver. We've got Seb, you know, there's there's some heavy hitters, which are all Canada Canada strong right so as a foreigner, you know what I mean? Like I've adopted Canada, but I'm very very bullish on Canada in its adoption

So at the same time we have kind of this climate of well, what's happening in Ottawa? I just turn to, you know, whatever, like I have the tools that I need to exist without Ottawa. And I'd like to give other people that right to do so as well. So I do think there is like a bit of a national kind of movement that needs to take place, but it's going to happen in very local pockets. And Vancouver's already one. So that's why we're jumping into this hotbed straight away. But I'd like to see learning Bitcoin pop up, East Coast, West Coast, Maritimes up north, wherever. Like this should be a format that we can replicate across Canada and then we can bootstrap real adoption. I think you're right. Why is this not taking off in a place like Toronto?

To me, there's a lot of Bitcoiners, maybe local, I don't want to say local to Toronto, but I mean, the GTA is super densely populated. There's got to be 100,000 people who can operate a Bitcoin day or run a Bitcoin day somewhere within that two or three hour drive. I'm kind of bearish on like metropoles in general. Tell me why. Tell me why. I don't know, just in terms of like even pre Bitcoin. Like I was traveling recently, you go to any metropole.

I've never lived in a metropole for a specific reason. I'm a big fan on like second cities. Vancouver is going to be the first time we run this, but we've already kind of tested the ground. Like everything's there, it's fertile ground for adoption. But there's just a mentality that goes with, like you're talking about GTA is huge, right? But if you look at downtown, Toronto or London or Paris or even like Montreal strong, but I live in Quebec, right? I live in Quebec City. There's a certain vibe which exists outside of the Metropole which is more fertile for adoption because if we look at the national level people are tired of looking to Ottawa for direction. If you

look on a provincial level people are tired of looking at the Metropole for direction. They want to feel that they've got a position of power and they can make their own moves and have local pride and strength. And I think that's why you're seeing smaller communities adopt Bitcoin quicker than bigger communities. There's like a network effect in these big cities, which drags people down and kind of like kind of stumps out a bit of kind of like, let's get out there and do something. I find smaller towns, smaller cities, if you look at all the circular economies, right? They're all happening in smaller places.

You've got Uvita, you've got Berlin, you've got various different circular economies, and there's more of a network effect in smaller cities than bigger ones in a positive sense. The network effect in big cities drags everyone down, and you get these kind of grumpy stoic face like telephone scrolling, like MPC kind of mentality. But if you go to a smaller city where you actually know people and you support local businesses and you're known and you go to the same places, these are the types of places which are going to adopt Bitcoin first because they're sick of being trodden on by the biggest city. People know each other a bit better and they want to take a move. So I'm kind of bullish on that kind of movement there as well.

Zach. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, right from the beginning, um, I've always seen learning Bitcoin as a blueprint, um, for educational conferences, wherever, um, in, in many ways, like this was created to fill a gap that we saw. All of the Bitcoin conferences that exist are for Bitcoiners.

They are not curated towards people who have never used Bitcoin. So that's a huge market. You just have to actually convince the people to want to learn about Bitcoin, which is more difficult than you would think, actually, one is to have a blueprint so that this can happen whenever, wherever, wherever it's needed. Right. And I mean, like, I truly believe that education is the number one barrier to global Bitcoin adoption right now. Everyone knows what Bitcoin is. Like, I don't think you can say the word with Bitcoin. I don't know if you can find, I mean you could, but it'd be very difficult to find someone

who'd never heard of Bitcoin at this point. But the truth is, is like, you know, very few of them have taken the time to understand it, probably less than 1%. We just saw the Cornell Bitcoin Club is currently releasing insights from their global Bitcoin adoption index. This is the first global study of Bitcoin being used as a tool for financial freedom on a global scale. They are covering 50 countries, 25,000 people, 250 in-person interviews. This has been in part funded by both HRF and the Reynolds Foundation.

So that's why I got this on my mind right now. But they recently released the first batch of insights. Well, the first batch of insights was actually at the Oslo Freedom Forum. Dr. Sarah Kreps, who is leading the study, came up and released the early insights of the Global Bitcoin Adoption Index, GBAI. But the Cornell Bitcoin Club is now releasing on a weekly basis over the next 10 weeks

insights from this study. Now, this is like, if you wanna learn about Bitcoin adoption, this is going to become the go-to study. Everything else is about crypto, includes crypto in it. And so this is just going to blow everything else out of the water because of that. Especially if you're in the Bitcoin crowd focused on Bitcoin only. And what they and so roundabout point to say, what they found is that basically everyone has heard of Bitcoin

and then wait for it. This is, and this speaks to the lack of education. Only 6% of the respondents knew about the 21 million supply cap. Oh my God. Basically 95% of people that know about Bitcoin have no idea that it's limited to 21 million coins. What is the first thing you learn about? That's what I would assume is the first thing, to be honest with you. So that to me speaks volumes, right? Like it's crazy. We've got work to do, boys. And that's why learning Bitcoin exists. And that's why we're

going to keep doing this. And that's why I hope that other people see this and feel inspired to do the same thing in their city or their country. Even if it's just a circular economy, even if it's just a meetup, it's a club at your university. Bitcoin education is like, it's absolutely paramount in these days. So yeah. Yeah. Um, just, just as Zach's point as well, the 21 million thing, I think Bitcoin is we can scoff at it as well. But like,

in terms of educating, we got to look at there's like an ego dig, you've got to take up being like, okay, 21 million, fine, we know that exists, we know how it exists, and we know why it exists. But honestly, if you look right back into the first time we interacted with Bitcoin, did we know about 21 million, even the first time we're really purchasing it, some people did, it depends when you got in. But some people in number go up, some people were just taking a punt, some people were messing around with hashing, some people were into the mining. There's a lot of different routes in, and I think this is what we're missing in Bitcoin education is the multiple, it's a typical government-style learning approach, but learner types, right? You've got to really really approach Bitcoin it has so many different values to propose to people

you got to work out and diagnose almost medically like okay what's your symptom here's the diagnosis and here's the cure right and you got to be able to be super agile maybe the 21 million is the first thing they want to hear about if they're going to talk to you about inflation but maybe it's a businessman trying to get his business afloat and they're looking at being able to keep bucks properly maybe it's a family looking at get his business afloat and they're looking at being able to keep books properly. Maybe it's a family looking at being able to just inherit properly. There's like lots of different aspects. We need to be super flexible and super malleable about how we can just, you know, you need to have all the cards up your sleeve and just be able to play the right one at the right time to get that interest.

But there's so many knowledge gaps and there's also on top of that, you got the FUD to fight as well, which has never been helping us. But I'm feeling that the FUDs diminishing quite a lot. Now it's kind of just like level pegging with, for lack of a better word, a bit of ignorance. People are not willing to take that. So what I'd really like to do is be able to seed curiosity. Curiosity is what we need. I think that's the source root of any Bitcoin education movement. You should be able to seed some type of curiosity. How you do that is up to you. We've got lots of workshops and lots of ways that people can get jazzed up on like, hey,

there's a trade game or like, hey, this guy's making a smoothie on stage or like, hey, we're playing cards, like, hey, we're shipping stuff at the poster. Like it's all ways of just teasing people in and having the little hook and then delivering a very small digestible package of like, so that's another thing you know about Bitcoin. So teaching them without their them really knowing that they're they're learning, right? Because grandstanding from our position as Bitcoiners, because there is part of the identity of being a Bitcoiner, which is like we worked out before you. And there's kind of a superiority chain, which happens, but that's definitely controversial being able to be like, yo, like, help you like I really want to help you and I want you to understand like this very small part

because I know a lot about different elements but this one's gonna really help you this is the one thing you need to learn for today and come back tomorrow right um so it's just trying to break those down in in that way but come back to the Ontario why isn't learning bitcoin in Ontario Joey we've got an amazing Bitcoin event in Ontario. We're hacking your life, your terms from the inside out. This is learning Bitcoin 2027. Does Zach know about that? Does Zach know about that? I do not, no.

There's a real estate brokerage called Rockstar Real Estate. Yes, actually. I've been on their podcast. Yeah. And so these guys are like, 10 years ago, they were shilling rental properties. They still are. But now if you listen to them speak or go to their events or go to their wherever, it's a room full of real estate guys and they're all thinking about Bitcoin. And then in the hallway where people have presumably paid to put up booths to advertise to real estate investors, everyone is just talking to Pablo and Kev and Matt from Bull about self custody and like, how do I sell my house to buy Bitcoin?

It was learning Bitcoin. I mean, you look at the lineup, like Francis was there, he'll be learning, Ben was there, the mentors are there, they'll be learning, the Karatsas were there. It's a micro learning Bitcoin. It's just not branded that way yet, but watch out. I love that. Shout out to the Rockstar family. Let's, okay, so if you want to go to learning Bitcoin,

you can use, there's a code, CBP is the code. You get 20% off. We don't get anything. I don't want anything for this, okay? I want people to go to the conference is what I want. Tell people who are listening, there's, by my count here, 195 people across all these different streaming platforms who have taken time out of their Thursday night instead of being at the bar having a pint to listen to a couple of

guys talk about Bitcoin and why it's important. Give people the reason why they should go to the conference. Why should they use the code, get the 20% and go to the conference? Pablo, you go first. All right. Okay. So I do call this the, I call this the plus one Bitcoin event. You're having these conversations, you're trying to pitch Bitcoin or angle Bitcoin into conversations or getting kicked out of the family supper because you talk too much about it. But there's a reason you're getting kicked out. And like, I'm going to try and help you learn how you can just seed curiosity and how you can bring Bitcoin to the masses. I work as an evangelist and that's my goal, right, is to welcome everybody into this session. So if you're a Bitcoiner, you're going to learn how to be able to teach Bitcoin a bit

better. Everything will be open source. You'll walk away with all of the information that I had going into the event. You'll walk away with every single ounce of it so you can go back to your respective homes and your communities and help do that. If you're lucky enough to be able to bring a friend along as well or a colleague or a family member, one of the best parts for me, like I always tell this one, but it was definitely like one of the highlights of last year.

Um, I pretty much designed my activities with a zero age threshold. So on the upside and the downside, everybody should be able to participate in these things. That's kind of a challenge I give myself, but I remember we were explaining like UTXOs and I had, uh, it was Tristan, the organizer with his girlfriend and his girlfriend's mom and one of the grandkids and they were all sat down at the table three generations being like, oh, I get it now. Incredible. So if you want to bring somebody along who needs that eureka moment, that orange pill,

that I get it now moment, come along because they'll definitely have that. That's what's that's my, I want to see curiosity and deliver an aha moment. That's exactly what we're going to be doing on day one. And day two is just going to be everything that they heard about in day one, but in drinking from the fire hose, but they get it now they're going to be surfing the fire hose because they'll be on top of that wave, you know, so we want to get them up and standing on the board and then we push them into the big waves. And that's where Zach Johnson. Yeah, yeah. I well said Pablo I don't know how I'm gonna top that. Well yeah I mean I'll just say like learning Bitcoin is a place for everyone regardless

of your political views, regardless of your age, your gender, regardless of whether you know about Bitcoin or whether you don't know about Bitcoin, even if you put in 10,000 hours, this is still gonna be an amazing time to like, if you're in the area, hang out with Bitcoiners, orange pill a couple people, help us orange pill, come to the conference for the vibes, it's super cheap. Like we're like, this is not an event where we're trying to make money.

It's a team of passionate people who care about Bitcoin, who care about seeing freedom go up and not just freedom go up for Canada, but freedom go up for all eight billion people on this planet, to have a more fair and equitable world that is not exploitive, that doesn't infringe on our privacy and all of these other problems that I'm sure many viewers will be familiar with,

and everyone can feel, right? Like we're all in a situation where we feel something's wrong. Something has to give like what is that going to be? That thing is Bitcoin. That is what is going to usher in the golden age and we want all of you to be there with us when it happens. No grandstanding, just freedom and fairness. I love it. Du Bois, thank you for making time. I want to mention to the people listening, watching, I had to reschedule this from yesterday to tonight and both these guys said, no problem, we're gonna be around.

Makes it easy for me and I'm glad that so many of you were able to tune in and listen tonight. Until next time, take care of yourselves. Laters.