The Canadian Investor - 6 Reasons to Sell and One Metric That Drives Returns

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

In this episode, Simon and Braden share his personal framework for deciding when to sell a stock—including full exits and trims. Simon walks through 6 reasons why he would consider selling an investment.  We also discuss an important metric that is very often correlated with stock returns for a copy. Simon and Braden finish the episode by discussing 3 stocks on their watchlist. One being a well known company while the two others are lesser known to north american investors.  Tickers of stock discussed: SMNNY, BRK-B, TOI.V Check out our portfolio by going to Jointci.com Our Website Canadian Investor Podcast Network Twitter: @cdn_investing Simon’s twitter: @Fiat_Iceberg Braden’s twitter: @BradoCapital Dan’s Twitter: @stocktrades_ca Want to learn more about Real Estate Investing? Check out the Canadian Real Estate Investor Podcast! Apple Podcast - The Canadian Real Estate Investor  Spotify - The Canadian Real Estate Investor  Web player - The Canadian Real Estate Investor Asset Allocation ETFs | BMO Global Asset Management Sign up for Finchat.io for free to get easy access to global stock coverage and powerful AI investing tools. Register for EQ Bank, the seamless digital banking experience with better rates and no nonsense.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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My name is Brayden Dennis. As always, joined by the harmonious Simon Bélanger. Dude, we are in limbo at the markets. I don't know what to believe anymore. Like you just wake up and you just check in on your dashboard on FinChat and figure out what's going on today. It's getting... Are we still having fun or is it getting a little tiring? I mean it's a headline driven market so welcome to that kind of market which was not really the case last year so I think a

lot of people are getting used to it. Yeah. This episode comes out on the day of the Canadian election, recording a few days before that. The day of the Canadian election. So listeners now will be looking forward to the results or maybe already know if they're listening a day later. So that is interesting. We're not gonna, I don't know how much there is for us to talk about it today,

but it's worth noting on the timing of this coming out. Yeah, exactly. I think by the time people hear this, like you said, they should also have a good idea before they vote about the spending for all the parties, the platform. So I think until now, the liberals released it not too long ago. I think the conservatives are either just

released it or about to release it. So that to me, I think everyone knows to me, it's always the fiscal thing that's important to me, so those were the numbers I was looking forward to, but it'll be interesting. I have no, like the polls obviously are favoring the liberals at this point in Kearney, but it will land poly market

I think it's 75 25 roughly But a lot of things can happen just in a few days from the time we're recording this on April 22nd until Election night, so it'll be it'll be interesting whichever way it goes whoever goes in I mean at the end of the day there's gonna be some Element of change obviously more if there's conservative to be some element of change, obviously more if there's conservative, but clearly even the Liberal Party with Carney is starting to look a lot different than the Trudeau party or the Trudeau government that we saw in the last 10 years.

I can't fully roast their costed plan because we don't have one from the CPC yet, but more spending and I saw it and I thought of you with larger and larger growing deficit adding around, planning around 225 billion to the national debt through the four years. So I look at this and I echo the sentiments of Toby Ludke and Harley from Shopify, which is the Liberal Party is very lucky to have someone as Compton as Mark Carney. And by the way, I think he won the debate in my opinion. Pierre couldn't really talk with Jagmeet interrupting him every time. My buddies and I were, we had a concert

and like, none of us got to watch it on Thursday, let's throw on the debate, turn this into a drinking game and it just turned into every time Jagmeet interrupts PP, have a sip, so we had a pretty good night. And so that was unfortunate, but I thought he was, I thought Carney was poised and I think that the party's lucky to have him.

That being said, those plans come out and the platform and it didn't, it doesn't seem like he's in control of, of what he's, like what he's saying and what the numbers that came out, it didn't feel like he's driving the bus. And that, that, that worried me a little bit. Tin foil hat, deep state type of stuff. Where I'm just like, who's making, who's calling the shots here? Because to me, it's the same people from Trudeau's cabinet. So really hard to say that there's going to be a lot of change from my view.

So I just hope that people recognize that. That yes, he's a good candidate, I like him, yet it's the same folks over the last 10 years. Public sector growth has gone out of control, GDP per capita has gone out of control, lowest performance in the G7. Man, I could go on and on. This is my last episode on the show.

Yeah, no, you're going out with a bang. This is my last episode recording on the pod, so I'm not gonna complain politically anymore, but yeah, it's an important election. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I mean, at the end of the day, whoever comes in, I think for me, it's good that we had an election because it's clear that Trump

wasn't really that open to negotiate with even Trudeau and even to some extent Carney before the election. He was really waiting. I think it's clear there the US is just waiting for the election before they actually start negotiating so whoever comes in and of course I think they're also being distracted by China right now so that's probably a good distraction for Canada on its own so I think it's good whichever way it goes I think just having an election was long overdue I think it should have been probably a year ago roughly or at least you know before or around the time that Trump was elected in November I think it's, it's

about time to be honest. So I think to me, just some, some closure, whatever the outcome is, I think it's just good that we have an election and someone will come in with a mandate. It's become evident and a little bit consensus at this point that everyone knew the US and China have been in a pent up cold war, turned to trade war. That I don't think surprises anyone in the year 2025 that there's enhanced tensions there. The problem is they decided to drag so many other people against them in the process. And they have had a real strategic blunder in my opinion, with some irreparable damage on the global stage. So like I said, I said last week, I don't think it's crazy for them to throw their weight

around and try to get better deals. But this will go down as one of the biggest strategic misfires on the world stage that I can possibly think of from a guy who says he can do out of the deal. It's permanent damages has been done here. I think that's become quite evident. Yeah, I think it's also the message that hasn't been really coherent from the administration. I think I think it's also the the message that hasn't been really

coherent from the administration. I think I've said it before if you ever listen to Scott Besson, very smart guy, a lot of the financial world respects him and he knows how the financial markets work and then you have Letnik and Navarro. So let me just say that and I feel like Besson is almost the adult in the room And then you have like the two younger brothers and I'm sure they're all about the same age But you have the two younger brothers that are like just throwing stuff out there fighting with one another and then Elon Musk Comes in sometimes and he's probably the the half brother in there too Just throwing his weight around and Scott

Besson's the only adult in the room and the problem is it looks like Trump is Depending on the day or a couple days a week We'll be listening more to either Navarro Letnik or more to Scott Besson And I think when things start getting real bad in the markets That's where he starts listening to Scott Besson a bit more but then some damage has already been done so it's going to be really interesting what happens but I agree with you at the end of the day it's it's almost like being in a marriage right when that trust is broken it's either very takes a very long time to regain that trust or it's broken forever and I feel like the

US has done that with a big chunk of its allies in the world, unfortunately. Now it's not, it's not, No, it's not. You know what I mean. It's not irreparable damage. I don't want to get too crazy with, you know, my assessment here, but I will unequivocally say

bit of a misfire own goal, unforced error. Feels like an unforced error, like across the board, when at the end of the day, we all knew it's always been against, it's always been about China. So, strange, strange own goal. Anyways, let's get into the content here. I have some stats on why fundamentals matter.

So much of this podcast, we talk about own good companies for the long term that have good fundamentals, try not to overpay, believe in the business long term if your conviction's there, because stock prices are volatile. And underlying the stock price on a daily tick when the markets open there is the business underlying it operating and either succeeding or dwindling it's in the in this in this world of capitalism and

quote over the long term it's hard for a stock to earn a much better return than the business which underlies it from our late great Charlie Munger. So I have 10 examples for this post. So starting with the behemoth of Apple, okay? So all the examples I'm going to talk about are 20 years of data, if available. If there's less data available just given like IPO date, then I'll just talk about when it's since inception. But the de facto here is 20 years of data. So over the last 20 years, 20 years, free cash flow per share has grown at a whopping 25.4% over that time stretch from Apple, and the stock price has grown at 25.8%. So they have been matched up perfectly over the last 20

years. It's not a fluke that they're only off by 0.4% over the long run. So that's for Apple. And we're sharing these charts on our listeners on the Patreon at jointci.com so you can follow along there. All right, Visa. Over that stretch, Visa has grown free cash flow per share at 19 and a half percent and the stock price has gone up 20. Booking holdings, 32% on free cash flow per share 32% on the stock price

Accenture 12.3% stock price 13% Palo Alto networks 25.7% and 27.2% Adobe 14.2% on free cash flow stock price 13.7% United Health Group 11.8% on free cash flow, stock price 13.7%. United Health Group 11.8% on free cash flow share, free clash, free cash flow per share and the stock price at 11.7%. So off by- Sound like me. Literally 0.1%, yeah.

Except I can't speak French, so I can't speak English or French. Chipotle 25.8% on free cash flow per share, 25.6% on the stock price. Arista Networks, 35.6%, 35.9%. And lastly, Monster Beverage Corp, 20.7% on free cash flow per share, 20% on the stock price. So a bunch of companies that have largely kind of gone up and to the right because you have amazing growth, a lot of them over 20% free cash flow per share over 20 years, that's a good recipe

for a very, very good performing stock. And it matches up almost perfectly with the stock price. Yes, there are exceptions. Look at Alibaba, okay? There are exceptions, but for the most part, this is not an exception. This is the rule. So it's really important to kind of zoom out

among the fundamentals. And if you have a visualization, like data platform visualization, which all of those were just shared like FinChat, you can see if things are out of whack. Like they will track themselves over the long-term. And if not, ask why. It's either short-term or long-term,

like mostly short-term mismatch. That happens all the time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like free cash flow per share, I think it's one of the best metrics just because it accounts for a shared dilution. And of course, free cash flow per share, I think it's one of the best metrics just because it accounts for share dilution. And of course, free cash flow is the cash actually coming into a company,

whereas earnings, it's more, it's almost more an interpretation based on accounting rules. Exactly, accounting rules, where cash, free cash flow is actually the cash coming in and out. You still need to look at earnings. It's still important understanding that. But oftentimes too, it's important to look at the discrepancy between the earnings, the

net income and free cash flow. So the bigger the discrepancy, the more questions you oftentimes need to ask. Or how capex heavy the business is based on, you know, again, this is an accounting thing, but there's a reason people think free cashflow per share growth is kind of financial nirvana over the long run. Now, it gyrates, it fluctuates a lot more

than a traditional net income number will. So that's why it's kind of financed nirvana for a 20 year horizon like we're just discussing, but maybe not as smooth as like, that's why I like using operating income. Cause that's as smooth as it gets, really when it comes to profitability in the short term. So long run, I love using free cashflow per share.

Every other time I really like to use operating earnings. Yeah. It's a reason why when Dan and I do earnings is I rarely look at free cash flow on a quarterly basis because it can vary so greatly. Once you start looking at a yearly basis, it starts smoothing out a bit more, but on a quarterly basis, especially if you have companies that are more dependent, for example, on the holiday quarter, it may look very lumpy and not great,

and then you look at the full year and then it makes a whole lot more sense. Yeah, especially if you're talking about sequential quarters. That's why I think, you know, my most consistently used metric is either a trailing or usually forward enterprise value to EBIT, E-B-I-T, which is a form of operating income. All right, so that's it.

Ten examples. The data is the data. Fundamentals matter. People get so lost in the days, the swings in the market and they forget that they're investing in an underlying business. Yeah I mean it's understandable at times with the kind of headlines that we've been getting so I it's hard to to blame people to you know if they're they're being distracted by the day to day like it is very human.

Maybe focus more on the Stanley Cup playoffs and less on your stocks. And then when the playoffs are done, you can start looking at your stock again. Yeah, exactly. Brayden showing his Toronto Maple Leaf shirt. I got my jersey on for the podcast today. I'm ready to have my heart broken again.

You know, that's how we operate. Core four, that's what they call it, right? The core four. today, I'm ready to have my heart broken again. That's how we operate. Core four, that's what they call it, right? The core four. The core four. Yeah, the last hurrah probably for that core four. Johnny, old man Johnny Tavares is having just turned back the clock kind of years, that's kind of nice.

Yeah, ageless wonder, but we'll stick to investing. Welcome back into the show. This is the Canadian investor podcast made possible by our friends and show sponsor EQ Bank, which helps Canadians make bank with high interest and no fees on everyday banking. We also love their savings and investment products like GICs, which offer some of the best rates on the market. I personally, and I know Simone as well, is using the GICs on a regular basis to set money aside

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stocks and ETFs today. Visit Questrade.com to learn more. TCI listeners, you know that I'm having to constantly travel for work. One week, year up for meetings. Next time in Montreal, meeting potential investors. And while I'm away, my place at home sits empty. So I've been thinking, why not put it to use, make some extra income by hosting it on Airbnb. Hosting feels like the smart thing to do but it can also feel overwhelming to some. But Airbnb's new co-host network makes it a lot easier. I can hire a local vetted co-host to manage everything.

Handling reservations, guest check-ins and even cleaning. If you've been thinking about hosting on Airbnb as well and you could with the right help, why not let your home work for you? Find a co-host at airbnb.ca forward slash host. So the next segment is kind of reasons when I will sell a company. I know your reasons might be slightly different. I know there's some that you'll agree with, some that are more a bit more specific to me, but I wanted to mention that just because I think a lot of people may feel sometimes a need to sell, especially in this kind of environment. They're getting nervous. Obviously, the last thing you want to do is buy high and sell low. So you want to avoid doing that. But there are

some good reasons to want to sell a company. I mean, sometimes you need to sell. If you just invest in a company and never sell and just hold forever and just disregard anything that would be a valid reason to sell, then you'll probably end up having some zeros over the time, over time. So something to keep in mind. So the first one is change investment thesis. This one I think is pretty easy to understand. My investment thesis is change and no longer applies. So this is just a reminder how important it is to write down the investment thesis because you may remember generally what it is but if you write it down sometimes there might even be some more specific stuff that you were

Looking at that you might not remember two three four five years down the line if you don't write it down and Obviously that can lump in a bunch of different things It could be that a company's growth rate is slowing more than expected or maybe it stopped growing for whatever reason I mean we've seen that time and time again. One that comes to mind is, remember PayPal during the pandemic? It was growing like crazy. And then what we've seen with PayPal

in the last few years is there's been a significant slowdown. They had to change their strategy. So clearly, if it's a business you're invested in, maybe that's something you have to take into account, especially if you invested into it when it was growing very rapidly. It could be a turnaround play that is not panning out how you had anticipated. It could be a secular change to the business. Maybe that's something we will be seeing more

and more now with some of the rapid changes that we're seeing on global trade, but again, with AI as well. There might be some businesses that we don't think will be impacted by AI at all, negatively. And five, six years down the line, we just realized, you know what, this business really saw some big changes and the investment thesis is completely different. So it's not, when there's a really a change in investment thesis, when I decide to sell, I will usually sell. I won't trim. Like when there's a change in investment thesis, it's very rare that I'll just decide to trim. It's usually a situation where I sell. I may be strategic in my selling. I know Dan, when he wants

to sell a company, oftentimes what he'll do is if a company is about to announce earnings, you'll sell like half before and half after just to kind of hedge a little bit in case something good or bad comes out of the earnings. So he wants to hedge a little bit that way. But typically if there's a change, I'm most likely going to exit my position. The key is that it's written down and documented here because you, most people overestimate their ability to remember what they're thinking at the time, especially if you invest like us in years, potentially years go by, potentially many, many years, decades go by and you're still holding the position. And it's important to

have this laid out, right? Because it's especially important to have this laid out because if you sell it and you don't have to kick yourself if it keeps going up, because you had a clear reason and a clear, thoughtful understanding of why you owned it and why that has now changed. And then if you all of a sudden look like a genius after, it makes sense. Like you had your process documented and why it was not gonna work out.

And you don't have to kick yourself if it was the wrong decision, because it was your decision and you're standing by it. So this is an easy one, but you got to document it. Yeah, exactly. And just to mention on that. So if you remember in late 2022, I talked about Carvana, I think it was like late 22, 23. And I was like, this company is like on the verge of bankruptcy. Well, that did not age well I mean it's probably what like roughly like 20 25 baggers and something like that but that was just to show if its company I would have held and sold then I think the logic behind selling was

very very sound literally I think if you were thinking in terms of probability like the result that happened with Carvana was probably a less than 5% chance of happening. And I haven't followed the story all that much, but I know I think they were able to get like some financing last minute and things started turning around and demand started picking up,

but that was a long shot. And that's just an example, like look, you can be around sometimes, but as long as your thought process, your process is good, I think that's what you need to focus on and not the fact that you may have been wrong in this example. Yeah, that was one where you're doing the math.

You're looking at the income statement, and then you're looking at the balance sheet, and you're like, uh-oh. Yeah, exactly. These don't work out. These two things can't work together. 25 bag, it shows you how hard this game is, man. Hey, and plus, you know, I think people know me

and you know me, I'm more than happy to say when I was wrong, like I think, and I was clearly wrong there, but I still think my process, my thought process was quite good. It's just that very low probability event that just ended up happening. The next reason I would sell is stretch multiples. Essentially this is more a situation where I bought the company at a reasonable or low valuation and now the valuation has become very stretch.

If my investment thesis was to hold this company long term and I still like the company and I believe it's a really quality business on the long term and that thesis remains unchanged, there's a good chance that I will just trim. Like these are the kind of situations that I would trim. So I still like the company, but I'm realizing that the multiples

have really become over stretched. So it is a situation where I will likely just trim a little bit and just happy to hold the company but take some money off the table and take some profits. I know you tend to let them run a bit more but it is something that I think over time I've started doing a bit more is just do some gardening. I think that's probably the best way to do it. Just do a little bit of gardening in my holdings. Still hold it, but if the valuation is really nosebleed, I'm more than happy with taking

a little bit of profits off the table. I like to do gardening as well in the form of watering the flowers. Water, okay. I like to trim a little bit just to make sure that the flowers just, you know, they stay nice and. Yeah, you don't want any weeds around the flowers, but you know, I want those flowers to just, if those flowers just end up dominating the garden, just a few winters,

while the rest of them kind of flounder, pun intended. That's how I like things to work out because historically, very, very good investors have had a track record of just a few ideas working out. So if I know that to be true, I want to model my portfolio around that. Yeah. And that's fine. Look, there are slightly different approaches and I think it's important for people to remember. I'm not like in those situation, I would rarely just sell everything. I would just trim a little bit and take some profits.

But there are different approaches and that's fine. That's the way I approach things. The next one here, I kind of skipped it because the document was going up and down, but this one is really important I think is I'm just losing faith in management or well I guess was usually what something they would say or just poor management decisions overall and one that really there's a couple of example I'll give to people the first one is Teladoc when they made that Livongo acquisition.

Even at the time, my own Teladoc and I was scratching my head a little bit. This was back in 2020 when valuations were really starting to get stretched for these high growth, high revenue growth company. Let's be more precise. It didn't matter if you were profitable or not. I mean, Teladoc was profitable on the free cash flow basis at the very least at that time, but they were still diluting shares quite a bit and then they make that big acquisition, which they ended up riding off pretty much all of it afterwards.

And it's a company that I sold. I ended up making some money on Tel Doc because I did trim when it was getting real high. The other one that I sold maybe a month, month and a half ago is Canadian National Rail because this one I have, I've been thinking about it for probably a better part than a year. So I'm, what I'm showing here for a joint TCI viewers and I'll explain it for those who are just listening on audio here is that there's a couple different things for Canadian National Rail that was really bugging me. First is really well the main thing is their capital allocation decisions which I thought were actually very poor for the

last couple years. So you're seeing here in red so they're told that has been essentially increasing for the last three years almost doubling during that time span and Canadian National Rail hasn't made any like massive investment. I mean, they've done some capex, don't get me wrong, but I think a lot of that capex could have just been covered by their free cashflow. They didn't really need to get into that.

The main reason why they got into that is because they really thought that buying back shares more than they produce free cashflow was a good idea. So you have that they were producing on average for over the last three years let's say around like 3.5, 4 billion of free cash flow. Well in some of those years they were buying back shares almost essentially like for that full amount and when you combine the dividends plus the share buyback, it was more, almost double the free cash flow that they generated.

So in my mind, it's just a stupid, stupid, stupid capital allocation decision. It's a levered buyback. Yeah, it's a levered buyback and it doesn't look good now because you're starting to look back and you're like, okay, so you bought shares actually when your shares were what like 20 30 percent more elevated than they are right now so in especially now that you're starting to look at it in hindsight in the moment I thought it wasn't smart but in hindsight it looks

even more stupid because now you could have bought back the shares at like 20 percent discount than you did and on top of that you use debt which now you're paying interest on. So these are, that's the reason I ended up selling this because I just think this is a stupid decision. Management clearly didn't foresee what we're seeing right now with the trade dispute with the US and that's fine. But at the end of the day, if you're a management team,

you should think forward and think in terms of, you know what? There might be something that happens where it just throws a wrench into our business. It will still be a good business, but it might not be as good for a period of time than we had actually anticipated. And when you start doing capital allocation decisions like that, you just don't leave yourself

with a lot of wiggle room. And that's what I have a big trouble, big problem with and that's why I sold a company. This is what happens when a company is so pot committed to how they were gonna allocate those funds. This was the post Kansas City Southern allocation, right? That's exactly what this is. So Pot committed to try to win that deal against CP.

And they tried to steal the deal and it backfired, backfired financially. And then they're in a situation where, okay, what is the play now capital allocation wise? And I was more bullish CP even though CN Rail was trading at such a deep discount compared to CP. And I thought to myself, it is so justified.

You know, a lot of people thought that that would be such an expensive acquisition to pull off for one of these Canadian rails and I thought to myself if this gets approved Pay whatever you got to pay either one of them pay whatever you got to pay because it is a once-in-a-lifetime Acquisition and there are not going to be many of these ever gonna happen again So it is just a scarcity thing. It expands your network so much in New Mexico.

So I think whoever got that deal done was the winner. CP was the winner. Post that, hangover, CN is just like doing levered buybacks and it was a bad idea. Yeah, and they canned their CEO back then. So they changed the CEO after the bid fail fail Which was ill-advised to begin with because it would have from a regulatory perspective It would have made CNR way more dominant than CP So a lot of analysts if you were reading like a lot of people were saying like it's very unlikely that CNR would ever be

Approved so they were wondering why they were even bothering and And they also had to, if I remember correctly, pay a breakup fee. So that's when- I think it was $2 billion if I remember it correctly. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, a billion or two, but still, I mean, you're throwing away money. So then they brought Tracy Robinson, who's the current CEO. And clearly the board was focused at returning some capital to shareholders. And I blame the board as much as the CEO, to be honest, because they're enabling that. So it just doesn't make much sense. And that's the reason I decided to sell because I think they've put theirself in a worse position now. And especially now that the economy is slowing down in North America, you're seeing it by the results.

They are, there is a, I would say, lack a better word, a freight America. You're seeing it by the results. They are, there is a, I would say lack a better word, a freight recession. We're seeing it more in trucking than rail, but now they just didn't give themself a lot of, a lot of leeway if you'd like in their business. They'll be fine, but they could have just bought back within what was possible with their free cash. We'll continue to pay the dividend as long as it was covered.

It would have been fine. And it would have been in much better position right now, which at some point they will have to reduce these buybacks or cut the dividend to start paying back that debt a little bit. Because the interest- Can you scroll down and tell me the difference in performance between CN and CP on a total return?

Sure, yeah. Total return on like a five year. Yeah, so CP has really outperformed. So you're looking at 64%. Yeah, 64 for CP and Canadian national, about 36, yeah. Wow, just looking back at this, I wholeheartedly disagree with analysts that thought either of them and including CN shouldn't go after that

deal. It's never going to get approved. It's too expensive. The breakup fee. I think it was worth the gamble, honestly. Post that, there's been the mistakes that you're talking about, but I disagree that not going for that once in a lifetime acquisition of a North American rail expansion was a bad idea. You know, of course the winner,

the winner you can see the results. Yeah. I mean, the reason why I don't think it was a good idea is just because they clearly have connection with the regulators and they would have known, like they could have known very well, like I'm sure they have lobbyists. Like they could have known very well Like I'm sure they have lobbyists like they could know baseball is like low percentage Exactly, like I'm sure they were told like guys don't do this

bid like we will not be as like Approving this bid if you make it you're going to be too dominant like I'm sure They would have known like I'm not and that's where I'm pushing back a little bit just because of that. Like there is ways when you're that important of a business and that big of an acquisition. Like you're connected with regulators for sure. Someone clearly thought it's worth the risk and we'll figure it out later. And what I'm trying to say is I don't think that that's crazy. No, no. Yeah. But-

Because I do think it was worth the risk. I think so. If you tell me the regulators were saying, you know what, there's 50-50% chance that we'll prove you, then I totally agree with you. I just feel like they were literally told, this is a hell Mary at best if you bid on this. That's the sense I got.

But hey, I'm just speculating. I could be wrong. It's hard to know what was happening in those discussions. Exactly. That's it. Maybe we'll get in touch with Jean-Jacques Ré. Maybe he's not too happy with CNR in hindsight. So maybe he'll give us this.

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So the next one on the list here is just better investment opportunities. So the reasoning is everyone has limited amount of capital to invest, no matter if it's just a few hundred dollars or you have millions of dollars in assets. You don't have an infinite amount of capital. So sometimes you just have better opportunities than one or a couple of investment that you have and it just makes sense to sell those investments because you believe you'll make better returns on this new investment that you want to put the money in. That is a completely valid reason in my opinion. I see you nodding,

so I assume that you're agreeing with that. I'll just jump in with I think people should have established some sort of hurdle rate that they're happy with and they're willing to accept. What I mean by a hurdle rate, say my hurdle rate is 8%. With that allocated capital, have a hurdle rate of 8%, meaning anything that I believe is going to return less than that does not meet the hurdle rate. Large private equity companies or large acquirers will have a hurdle rate in terms of which companies to buy. They're modeling it out and they think, okay, we can earn 14% a year if we buy this company on the capital.

Our hurdle rate's 10, that meets it, check. They're evaluating other opportunities, it might be six. They're evaluating putting their money in a fixed income instrument. Oh, that doesn't meet the hurdle rate. So having a kind of set ideal hurdle rate, whether you're gonna hit it or not, or things actually go according to plan, that's the science to this. But have one in mind,

because if you're trying to make eight, nine, 10% on your money, and you have this instrument that's a 3% return, you're not meeting, you're not doing yourself a favor. You're not meeting your hurdle, right? So have an idea of what that is. Yeah. And also we've talked about this a lot on podcasts,

but you know, a lot of beginning investors, and I think probably even more like seasoned, sometimes people will just be like, they'll have an investment, right? And it's down like 50% and they don't want to sell it because they want to be back at even with that investment like you've heard that time and time again. Oh my god of course. Exactly when the real the real way and I think the the optimal way to do that is look at that investment and say

you know what it's down 50%, there's nothing I can change, this is how much money there is left in that investment. Would I get better returns by selling that now and investing it in company ABC? The question is which one would you buy today? Because that's the only thing that matters. The market doesn't care that you're down 50%. Market doesn't care what your cost basis is.

Yeah. That's right. Exactly. I see that mistake a lot. It drives me nuts because it's just so, it's just a complete behavioral psychology mistake. It has nothing to do with reality. No, exactly. So the next one here, so it would be rebalancing.

So this one goes a little bit with, you know, the multiple that gets pretty stretched. Something I've been wanting to do more and more is just making sure that I rebalance my portfolio a little bit. Some of the learnings from 2022, which was my worst year in terms of returns, something I can do a bit more, I think still,

but I want to make sure that my portfolio doesn't get too overweight one way or another. It's something I do very religiously for my parents portfolio. I'm way more strict on that for their portfolio because they are retired and I rebalancing is really important to make sure that the volatility is lowered for them. And the last one here, personal financial reason. Look, a well-funded emergency fund, we talked about time and time again, we have mentioned that it will help mitigate the risk that you need to sell investments for financial reason. But at the end of the

day, it could still happen. And a recent example for me is I bought a house a few months ago and we had our down payment mostly tied to our previous house so when the cell would close we would take the profits from that and use it for our new house for the down payment. The problem is is when we made the offer and got accepted I didn't realize that we would need a deposit. A pretty you know substantial amount for a deposit which is pretty common in Ontario but not very common in Quebec. We didn't have to do that for our first house either and I grew up on the Quebec side so I wasn't really

expecting that. So we needed to have that money relatively quickly within a few days. So I was in a situation that I had to get some some cash, had to raise some cash. So I had to sell some investment. It was mostly some Bitcoin ETFs that I had that I trimmed down. The timing ended up being very good because our offer got accepted in November. So that was when the whole like kinda Trump euphoria following the election happened. So my timing was quite good.

So I was able to benefit from a price increase but the reality is is you may not always be lucky like that in that kind of situation and sometimes you may be stuck in a situation where you don't really have a choice and you have to sell and it may not be the optimal time to sell and Look, if you have a good emergency fund, you'll definitely limit or mitigate that risk, but the reality is life happens and sometimes there's just stuff that happens that requires more money than that and you just have to sell and you didn't plan on it.

And that's the reality. It may or may not happen to you, but it can happen. As much as you can put yourself in a position of strength when bad things happen the better because they will happen they're always unforeseen that's the him know by nature that's the whole point of the emergency fund is like there are unforeseen things happen I mean if you had a crystal ball then yeah you could be able to optimally plan for things but that that's not reality so having that

you know peace of mind puts you in a position of strength when unforeseen things happen, which is really important because no one wants to be a distressed seller of any asset, whether it's stocks, whether it's real estate, no one wants to be a distressed seller. Speaking of coming in from the Quebec side, I'm just curious, is your daughter learning French?

Yeah, yeah, I only talk to her in French, yeah. Oh, really? Yeah, it's interesting, because like there's gonna be like people, she'll respond in English a bit more, but I always talk to her in French and she knows, and then I'll usually say like, Oh, in French, please,

and then she'll say it in French. But yeah, I talked to her only in English. So it's kind of funny, my wife talks to her in English. Yeah, sorry, only in French. So my wife will talk to her in English. But obviously if there is like, we're with people that are only Anglophones and she's there as well,

oftentimes I'll switch a little bit more to English. But for the most part, I would say 98% of the time it's French, yeah. Dude, that's so cool to be able to switch on and off. Like as someone who only knows one language, listeners out there who have that superpower, you guys, one, impressive, but two, that's such a great skill to have. I feel like it makes your brain work better.

Yeah, and for those, and a quick tip for future parents, if you do have a second language, just stick with it. Like you have to stick with it. It can be, you have to start early and you just have to continue doing it. And sometimes you feel like you're just like doing it for no reason, because they're picking up English much faster because they're hearing it everywhere.

Just stick with it and they will pick it up eventually. That's so cool. So my fiance's Portuguese, she grew up in Canada, but her family's Portuguese and her mom, mostly her mom, but both her parents speak Portuguese and her mom would only speak to her in Portuguese growing up. And she didn't speak a lot of Portuguese in the last 10 years, just naturally. Then we were back there with her family this past summer and she's so like hesitant to speak Portuguese with her family cause she hasn't done it in a while. But she's fully fluent in all her family.

Like, what are you like, why are you hesitant? Like your Portuguese is perfect. Like you still have it, but she's, you know, she's just got to get the confidence back, not using it after a while. But it's crazy, you know, she's just gotta get the confidence back not using it after a while, but it's crazy. You know, you learned that 25, 30 years ago as a kid and it sticks with you, it's amazing.

Yeah, I mean, I think I get it. I get why she may be a bit, you're not sure at times cause when you don't use it for a while, you can still talk about it, you know, talk the language, but you may hesitate for certain words. So I think that's where it comes from, yeah. Yeah, no, but still so impressive. Like to me, it was perfect Portuguese, but you may hesitate for certain words. So I think that's where it comes from. Yeah. Yeah, no, but still so impressive. Like to me, it was perfect Portuguese, but you know.

Yeah. I'm no good judge of that. Exactly. All right, last one here. Oh no, you just. I know that's it. Yeah, that's it, yeah. Personal reasons.

Okay, we're gonna go to two stocks on our radar you have here. I just wanted to add one as well, so I'll go first. This is presented by our beautiful friends at EQ Bank. I'd like to bring up Topicus, which is ticker TOI on the Toronto Stock Exchange venture. So on the TSX-V. It's a spin out of Constellation,

and I've talked about it so much, but I wanna bring it up particularly today. So it's a spin out of Constellation, and I've talked about it so much, but I wanna bring it up particularly today. So it's a spin out of Constellation Software. I've owned it since the spin out. I've never sold a share, and I've continued to add to it with Fresh Capital since it got spun out. And it's an operating group of Constellation Software,

which is ticker CSU on the TSX, my largest individual stock position. But it's out of the Netherlands. So it's, it's their like Dutch operating group that they spun out because it was a big operating group and really competent management. They spun it out as its own entity on the TSX-V, even though it is managed and owned and headquartered in the Netherlands. So they and headquartered in the Netherlands. So they focus on acquiring Dutch and other European software companies. So the business is almost exactly today 50% Dutch software companies and 50% rest of Europe basically. And

there's some interesting benefits to that structure being European focused, especially when you're a niche consolidator of software companies. And the reason for that is you have so many different niche markets, different niche government services that you can cater to when there's all these different small countries in Europe, but also all all the languages, right? Every company basically needs like a localized version of software so that the local people can use it in their native tongue. And so that's a really good thing because it creates a lot of different targets for them to go acquire, but it also keeps the

competition low for their portfolio companies because who wants to go start. But it also keeps the competition low for their portfolio companies, because who wants to go start up some, you know, Belgium focused software company that does one niche small thing for their customers, right? So not a lot of competition. Now, the reason I'm bringing it up today is they have been off to a spicy hot start in 2025. They've done 14 acquisitions on the year. They've deployed a ton of capital record highs, including 10% of Asseco, which is a Polish publicly traded software company. And by the way, Poland is kind of an interesting underground. Organic growth has been solid averaging around 5% and combined with accelerated pace of acquisitions, topicus management has been on a roll here in 2025.

The stock has done fantastic among the backdrop of a really tough market lately. The outperformance compared to the index has been just fantastic. 12 and a half billion in market cap now, Simo. Yeah, I didn't expect that, yeah. Which is massive on the TSX venture. It's all these small companies and then you have these two spin outs of Constellation and Lumen group and Topicus

that are first and second by MarketCap. Topicus is now twice the size of the third largest stock on the exchange. So they fit out, they stand out a bit like a sore thumb on that exchange. I don't know if something's going to happen and they're going to be told they got to go list on the big exchange. But don't know if something's gonna happen and they're gonna be told they gotta go list on the on the the big exchange but so far so good. Yeah what's really interesting there it kind of highlights the problem of that Canadian only TFSA. Right. A name like this and remember like people were like super excited but it's where do you draw the line like obviously a company like Topicus would probably not be eligible for that But can be as simple than allowing everything on the TSX. That's a prime example and TSX venture Yeah, I think headquartered would be probably the right. Yeah, but even then it's

Yeah Could be headquartered somewhere and still do most of your business somewhere else But no, I just I just highlights like that's the kind of thing. It's probably better than listing though, because TopiCast is a very Dutch company, but it's listed on the TSX. Well, even like, there's a lot of crypto mining companies that were US based that just listed in Canada

because there were so many restrictions in the US and now you're seeing them switch over and out. Same with the wheat stocks, that was the same. Exactly, so I mean it's always something to keep in mind, but no, it's one I'll keep on my radar. I know you've had it, you never sold, so good on you. I've kept adding to it over time. It's been a monster performer.

Yeah, nothing really has changed. It's kind of a weird stock to bring up on this what's on my radar right now. But I wanted to highlight the execution so far in the last year has been so far and above expectations that you get. How do I put this succinctly? Expert management teams with really good track records continue to surprise to the upside time and time again, that the market, the market will still undervalue

their ability to surprise to the upside time and time again, the best teams. It's like, they can't keep getting away with this. It's that, it's that kind of meme. Like they'll, they'll continue to, cause they're not one hit wonders. Years go by, years go by, years go by of performing better than everyone else. Just leads to a larger and larger lead. No, I mean, it's hard to argue with that.

So the two names, so one that's gonna be real quick cause it's well known. Like I mentioned the last time we did that, I think I had like 10 names and it's just there's more and more stuff that I'm finding attractive as the markets are going down but this is one company Berkshire Hathaway that has done quite well despite markets being down just because of the nature of the business and the type of businesses that Buffett and his associates lack of better terms there are investing in. Obviously, Buffett is 94,

so I think it's reasonable to assume that you will be taking a lesser role in Berkshire in the short to medium term. I mean, father time catches up to everyone. And the reason I have it on my radar is just because their exposure to insurance. And it's something I don't have enough. I just because their exposure to insurance and it's something I don't have enough. I barely have any exposure in my portfolio and I understand the insurance

business generally, but it can get very complex and Berkshire has shown time and time again that they do very well with those insurance businesses and I believe the head of their insurance business is in his early 70s. So if Buffett is any indication, he probably has at least a decade to go, but he's not a young guy either, but he's, I know, but I'm forgetting his name. I didn't write it here. There you go.

Ajit Jain has ran the insurance segment of Bookshire Hathaway for Buffett for multiple decades now. He, I just looked it up. He's 73 years old. There you go. So I knew, so I looked it up earlier. I just forgot to put his name,

but that's one of the reasons why I would want to own it is just because I trust that they'll do, especially that part of the business well, and obviously get the rest of Berkshire at the same time. So that's the first one on my radar. Probably the best time to buy it is when people start saying that Buffett no longer has it.

That's the best time to buy Berkshire because time and time again, people say that and then you look back and they outperform the market. That's a leading indicator of the stock being cheap. Yeah, or the market's being expensive. Correct. Yeah, or junk is expensive. That's right.

Yeah, and the next one is one that we, I think I mentioned a little bit, maybe years ago, so it's Shimano ticker. There's different tickers. You can buy it obviously directly on the Tokyo Stock Exchange or an ADR, which is an American Depository Receipt. Ticker there is SMNY on pick sheets. Now it's a company that

derives for those not familiar it's mainly a bike component company so bicycles. It derives about three-quarters of its revenues from biking components and a quarter from fishing tackle. Fishing tackle is just different type of fishing equipment that people would use more recreational fishing. It has seen a 57% drawdown since peaking during the pandemic. Now clearly during the pandemic everyone and their brother and sister wanted to buy a bike because of the lockdown so they their revenues really peaked in 2022 and since then revenues are down close to 30% which I know at the end of the day is not super surprising but if you see here for a Joint.i's viewer so the

fishing tackle has stayed relatively stable in terms of revenue but you can really see the biking revenue in baby blue here that has dropped like a cliff after going up into the right for the pandemic and then afterwards it's gone back to normal, but it's still much higher than it was pre-pandemic. So that is the one thing that is very encouraging here. And I mountain bike quite a bit.

It looks like BRP's revenue. Yeah, exactly, like BRP and revenue. Yeah exactly like BRP and outdoor recreational demand pulled forward. Exactly and what's really nice is of course three-quarter of the revenues are coming from bikes so they are really in a duopoly when it comes to the bike components that they specify in. So it's really the drive terrain so for people not familiar it's like the gears when you you know you push your shifter the derailleur in the back all those components So it's really between them and SRAM the other one an American company There are other competitors, but there's really the vast majority of the market share is just these two. They also make

Quite a bit of brakes. So disc brakes for bikes as well. SRAM tends to be the innovator a bit more and Shimano takes its time and usually will come out with its own version of whatever innovation SRAM comes out. But they're very reliable and they're a company that when I started mountain biking as a teenager, Shimano was still the top dog back then. Since then, it's become more of a duopoly. SRAM was there back in the day, but they really did a lot of strides over the last two decades. But biking as a market going up, are more people cycling today? Or is that like, I mean, I know it's not like a explosive growth market, but

like, is it still growing? Yeah, I believe it's a market that's growing, but probably it depends what timeframe, right? I think it's something that will grow over the next five, 10 years, but it's probably gonna face a few years of not much growth because of the pandemic. And you also have more and more people wanting e-bikes, but these e-bikes, a lot of them will have a drive train,

will have disc brakes. So they will have components that are coming from Shimano or SRAM and that has been pretty pretty big uptrend uptrend here and they also have some entry-level stuff all the way up to high-end stuff where it costs like you know several thousand dollars just for the actual components not the whole bike. And one of the thing though is that Shimano's is really, I mean they've stood the test of time so I think that's the first thing people have to to really remember and there's been and despite the man really kind of catering, cratering for lack of better words. And what people follow the bike world will know that there's been several bike brands

that have gone bankrupt over the last couple of years. So it's not like there hasn't been some pain, but Shimano is in a really good position because yes, revenues drop, but their balance sheet is pristine. So they have over 3 billion in USD of cash on the balance sheet and no debt. And they have a very strong brand name. And of course they stood the test of time and what's really interesting is their biggest market is not North America is Europe. Because Europe and you've been to Europe, Brayden, like people bike way more in Europe than they do in North America. So their biggest market is there. So there is some insulation.

We were just talking about the Netherlands. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there is some insulation from tariffs. The reason why I was saying that is, you know, it's less likely that there would be as big of an impact for tariffs at least for their European business, but of course, their North American business there will be. And right now they are paying a dividend that yields about 1.7% and it is well covered by free cash flow. So it is more of a cyclical play, but it's definitely the time I think in the cycle that's worth looking at these kinds of businesses.

And this is a quality business too. I just mentioned the balance sheet. They can sustain years likely of, you know, bike sales that are taking time to recover because they have such a strong balance sheet. And I think it's, it's worth reiterating for people, not specific to Shimano, but these cyclical businesses, you want to buy them when the cycle is at the bottom. When sales may not look that great, but you also want to buy them when the cycle is at the bottom. When sales may not look that great, but you also want to buy.

And the PE ratio is high. Yeah, and you want to buy a quality. That is super important, because I just talked about buy companies going out of business. That's the best example right there. Yeah, buying cyclicals is, well, by nature, counterintuitive to everything you'd be looking at normally, including high

PE ratios. The bike market, so if I go, because I really want to get like a pedal assist bike, because I bike, my commute to work to the office is straight north, straight south in Toronto. And the way home is north uphill the whole way. Okay, I was going to ask, is it flat or is it? No. Okay. I used to go across the city and that's flat.

But as you go away from the lake, you go uphill the whole way. And especially some of the worst hills in the city, like Summer Hill, like up that Mount Pleasant Hill. Dude, it's brutal. Like it's not a fun commute. Like I don't wanna have to climb, you know, every day. So I wanna get one of these E-bikes. Would Shimano be supplying the same components for those bikes, are they not needed?

Yeah, yeah, they still are because you still need a drive train, right? So you'll still shift gears. The main difference is you're going to have a battery that will help you have battery assist. So yeah, they'll usually Shimano and both, Shimano and SRAM are the two brands really you typically wanna look at for components.

You can't go wrong with either of them, to be honest. When it comes to other brands, I'd be a bit more careful on that. Some are good, but again, there's a too trusted brand and then other stuff and the other stuff is kinda hit or miss. I almost bought one in Florida that I can like fold into itself.

The handlebars drop down because you can get it in your car and it's good for like snowbirds who want to bring their bikes down without the bike rack on the back. Oh yeah. But I got to do some more research. They've come down in price so much.

Oh yeah. The e-bikes. Yeah, so they have, so yeah, there you go. Do a quick share screen here. So they have some e-bike components. So they they have, so yeah, there you go. I'll do a quick share screen here. So they have some e-bike components. So they even have, I think, I wasn't aware of this part, but they even have this.

So they have, I think the components that will exactly match with an e-bike. Yeah. So it makes sense. This is probably, this has gotta be the largest growing like segment. Yeah, and there's also Stram has some well they have to so they have some electronic shifting where instead of being cable

So even for if your bike is not an e-bike you can still have electronic shifting So instead of a cable going through it's just like basically there's a little battery and it's a signal and it always shifts like perfectly. Whereas if you have cable then you always like the cable over time kind of stretches you have to tighten it up over time. After a lot of use you have to change it as well so that is something else that you're seeing more and more like my mountain bike has like electronic shifting. I strongly believe warmer I strongly believe warmer climates, Canadians don't have it as easy, but warmer climates, like when I go down south in the States or, you know, their commutes should look a lot more like Europe's. Because European, I mean, we're like the Dutch, like the commute in the morning is like thousands of bicycles. They pile their bike in these lots and it's just mayhem, but it works. It's quick. There's no crazy congestion.

Like if it's warm out, there shouldn't be so much congestion. Like these e-bikes are unreal. Like it's the most efficient way to move around possible. You don't have to get on a major interstate. Everyone should be ripping these e-bikes. Yeah, in Amsterdam, I remember going, it's crazy. Like you literally like when you first get there and if you've never been, the first thing you notice quick is you have to check where the bikes are coming from because you don't have to dodge cars. You have to dodge bikes.

Yeah, that's like such a hilarious stereotype. from because you don't have to dodge cars you have to dodge bikes bikes yeah that's like such a hilarious stereotype you like you know it's everywhere it's every day it's stereotypes not the right word it's a stereotype but they know it's true but it's true it's like it is so in their culture and if you don't think in true and you're not paying attention trust trust me, you will be hit by a bike. That's what's gonna happen. I hit some guy on my bike to, no, it was a while ago now, maybe like November-ish, right before winter started. I was biking down the hill to work.

This guy in a suit comes out of the, he comes out of the bagel shop with his bagels, on his phone, holding the bagels, and walks straight into the bike lane as I'm going downhill. Oh boy. And it's amazing that neither of us got hurt because he, so he walks out, bagels, phone,

like just staring down, just walking like zombie mode, phone, you know, eyes down. Oh yeah, like fully into his phone. Fully into it. And nothing in patient, yeah. Guy's in a suit, comes out, and he does the turns and looks at me as I go, whoa, watch out, watch out, watch out.

And he does the full like, he's holding the bag, he's holding the phone, and we just lock eyes like, oh no, I'm about to smoke you. So, Wheel goes like straight, straight like center caught into him. He goes flying towards the curb. I somehow like kind of like stick the landing, bike goes flying, I jump off of it.

I'm riding one of the city bikes, like the one of the like. Oh yeah, yeah, I know which one. Yeah. Yeah. And he gets up, grabs his phone, and had the audacity to tell me it was my fault. The audacity. I was just like, I just looked at him, I was like, man, I was gonna say I'm really sorry,

and I'm so glad you're okay. But after saying that, I'm like, nah, have a good day pal Like take take a hike man like this could have been such a good Samaritan like shake your hand like everything's fine I'm glad you're okay Gets off his phone just starts barking at me. I was like I you're you're so Hopefully learn his lesson to not pay attention when you're on your phone But I think we've all seen like I've had to once grab someone on their

phone at the intersection. They were like just going and they thought they had like, you know, the go ahead to walk and I grabbed their code because they would have got hit by a car. Because there was an advance left on the other side. Yeah, that's happened before where they were not paying attention. So yeah, I'm guilty of it when I'm walking, but I would never walk perpendicular into the road, like a bike lane. Yeah. Like you gotta be walking parallel with the road if you're gonna be on your phone on the side.

No, it wasn't paying, yeah, not paying attention. Crazy, crazy man. I was very glad neither of us were hurt, but he had to be a douche bag about it. Anyways, everything's fine, everything's fine, Simone. Thanks for listening to the show, folks. I will be back for our Meeting of the Minds quarterly discussion that we have set up not too, too far away. But dude, it would have been hard for me to record in the next few weeks anyways. I have to go, I am on a plane every single week for four weeks straight. I'm doing a, I don't know how I got picked for this

but I'm, Google's doing like their big FinTech AI conference in New York City in two weeks and I'm like the featured panelist or featured fireside chat guy and I have no idea what they're gonna ask me about so that'll be fun just yeah just wing it in front of a bunch of people work at Google they're probably all ten times smarter than me and I'm gonna look like an idiot that's all right do your do your best forget the rest like Tony Horton from P90x yeah there you go yeah that's a good little slogan thank you again. I know I've been saying thank you so much to the listeners over the last three weeks

as I kind of do this finale here, but seriously, I appreciate you so much. I appreciate you, Simone, and we're in great hands with you and Dan and the real estate show with Dan and Nick. We are, I'm waiting for some final confirmation on the event we're gonna do. Yeah. And we'll, once that's available, we'll make like a first come first serve signup.

It's a bucket list thing for investors. That's what I'll say. So make sure you're tuning into the show and listening because we're going to have it announced, sign up on the podcast before anyone else. Like before we post it anywhere else. Cause we want the actual listeners to get first shot. So before we go post it other places,

cause it will fill up and it's a bucket list thing for investors, we'll announce it on the show when I have confirmation of the booking. Yeah, and we'll likely have another event. So one will be more, we can say at least likely be Toronto, the one you're referring to. And then without going too much detail, then we're working on the second one this summer as well

for our West. So for our Western listeners, for Calgarygary exactly in Alberta. So we have something we're working we're finalizing the venue. So as we have everything is booked and we'll have to basically you know we just want to have tickets so we cover our costs. So that's the approach we'll have. Likely during the stampede weeks right right? Yeah, that's where we're looking at exactly. So we're working with an event planner, just finalizing that. But the Western listeners, just stay tuned as well. It'll be, assuming as all goes to plan, we'll be on my bucket list to go to to the Stampede. Definitely something I've been wanting to do. So it would be during that period of time. It's a riot. I haven't been in years, but the Stampede's a good time.

No, I've never been. Yeah, so I'm pretty excited to see that. Just, you know, it looks fun. That's it. No, it is. The Stampede is a great old time. Yep, I'll be there as well too. So more info on both those events.

One will be in Toronto, which will be really, really cool. And then one will be in Calgary during the Stampede. So we'll hit Ontario and Alberta, other provinces, hopefully in the next little while, but we can't be everywhere at once. It's a big country, last time I checked. Exactly, that's it. Thanks for listening, folks.

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