The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - ANTHOLOGY – Hacker Stories From OSCON, All Things Open, and Node Interactive (Interview)

Episode Date: January 13, 2017

In this anthology episode we're featuring three awesome hacker stories from OSCON, All Things Open, and Node Interactive — Giovanni Caligaris about how he brought LibreOffice to the people of Paraguay by translating it to their native tongue. Stu Keroff about the Linux user group he started for kids called The Asian Penguins. Shiya Luo about how China does Node, translations of documentation and books from English to Chinese, and the Great Firewall of China.

All right, we have a special show for you today. In the last quarter of 2016, Jared and I did a ton of travel. We went to OzCon in London, All Things Open in Raleigh, North Carolina, and Node Interactive in Austin, Texas. And today's show is an anthology show. We're sharing some awesome hacker stories from each of these conferences that really got to the heart of things. If you've been paying attention, you know that we launched our new branding in October of last year and updated our tagline to Hacker to the Heart. So these stories fit perfectly

with the essence of who we are and we're proud to share them with you. And by the way, in this episode, we're introducing our new theme music. I hope you love it as much as we do. Huge thanks to the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder for working so closely with us on our new beats. One more thing before we kick the show off.

Bandwidth for Changelog is provided by Fastly. Learn more at Fastly.com. Welcome back everyone, this is The Change Log and I'm your host Adams Dekowiak. This is episode 235 and I hope you love our new beats. Thank you Breakmaster, they're awesome. In this anthology episode we're featuring three awesome hacker stories with a slightly different perspective than we're used to. First up we got Giovanni Caligari with his story on how he brought LibreOffice to the people of Paraguay by translating it to their native tongue. Second, we talked with

Stu Karoff, who started a Linux user group for kids called the Asian Penguins in a school for Asian refugees where they learn to install, use, and configure Linux and open source software. And last but not least, we talked with Xiao Liu on how China does Node. Software development is done differently in China, in large part because of the slow translations of documentation and books from English to Chinese, but also because of the Great Firewall of China, a censorship and surveillance project of the Chinese government, which makes it very, very difficult to interact with the rest of the web.

Our sponsor for today's show is our friends at GoCD. Head to gocd.io slash changelog to learn more about this awesome open source continuous delivery server. GoCD lets you model complex workflows, promote trusted artifacts, see how your workflow really works, deploy any version anytime, run and grok your test, compare builds, take advantage of plugins and more. Once again, head to gocd.io slash changelog to learn more. And now on to part one of the show. All right. Well, you're here with LibreOffice. Yes. Tell me your involvement with LibreOffice. I got involved with LibreOffice in 2014. Yeah.

That year, I was living in Toronto. I was... I always wanted to do something for Paraguay and Guarani. That's the language of Paraguay, Spanish and Guarani. Guarani? Guarani. Guarani. Guarani is that's a language of Paraguay, Spanish and Guarani. Guarani? Guarani. Guarani. Guarani is an indigenous language. Okay.

It's spoken by 90% of the country, but our indigenous population is very small, actually. About 1% of the population. Right. So most, really, truly, non-natives speak the language. Right. In every social class. There are very few natives.

Very few natives. Yeah. So, but it's a language that's spoken, especially in the smaller towns, right? People speak it a lot as their first language. And 40% of the country only understands who you want to meet. And if you want to be a professional in Paraguay,

you have to speak Spanish. Which is quite a conundrum for people. Yeah, it could get tricky. It's a problem, right? It's a problem. It could be a problem, and it shouldn't be a problem. Okay. Right?

So in 2014, I already had thoughts of going back to Paraguay. I wanted to go back for a year. So I decided if I was going to go back I was going to do something I like truly I want to it would be my own contribution

to the country you wanted to help or something I wanted to help something you didn't just want to move home you wanted to actually I wanted to do something if I was just going to move just for the hell of it

it didn't make sense you don't like moving so don't move I don't like moving don't move for the hell of it where was this why is the desire to like do a big help, where does that come from? Some sort of gratitude or what?

Because I live in so many places by now, and I see the possibilities and the skills that you need. And one of the most required skills today, I mean, back in the day, was you got to know how to use a computer, right? That was the average skill you needed. Okay, that doesn't cut it anymore. Now you need to use, you got to learn how to use Office. Doesn't matter which brand, Microsoft Office, OpenOffice,

doesn't matter. Office is an essential tool for every career. Right. Right? Yeah. So I started thinking, okay, we have all these people in Paraguay who don't speak Spanish,

but office is the most essential tool to have a job. You can have, like I mentioned to you before, you can have a tool that does everything you need. But if it's not in your language, it's pointless. You can't use it. So the idea started coming from there. So when I went back to Paraguay, I got in touch with the Dockerman Foundation. They're responsible for maintaining and developing the liberal office. And they were super happy with it, right?

And I'm excited too with the idea of doing a translation for liberal office in Guarani. Then I realized, not realized, I know this. I don't speak Guarani. What? I don't. Wait a minute. I What? I don't. Wait a minute. I thought. I don't. Wait a minute.

I speak four languages, but one of them is not Guarani. So hopefully one of them is Spanish. I speak Spanish, Portuguese, English, and Italian. Okay. Are you Italian? I'm Italian descendant. Yeah. Very Italian name.

Italian mannerisms. I'm a quarter Italian too. So I had some money saved up. I'm a quarter Italian too. So I had some money saved up when I was in Paraguay. Yeah. Because that's the money I took with me, truly. And it wasn't that much. So I have this massive project.

I never translated a program in my life. I never, I don't know how to code. And you don't know the language that you're going to... I don't know the language. Okay. Most people would just go to the movies at this point or, you know, throw that idea out the window. Yeah. I mean, so, plus I wanted to enrich my curriculum, my resume.

And that was a great opportunity. I was going to be there for a year. And I didn't want to get a job doing something else. So, it was hands-on. And, okay, so, I got in touch with a mailing list of the labor office and decided guiding me how to do everything. And truly, if it wasn't for them, I couldn't have done it. So they told me, okay, start with a terminology list

of the words that you think you're going to use the most. So I went to the program. I opened the application. So I'm seeing the most used common terms and stuff like that. So I created about a thousand words. Okay. Right? Then I gave it to a friend who speaks Guarani.

And he did the translation of those words. You enlisted a friend who knows Spanish and Guarani. Exactly. And you put it in Spanish and he put it in Guarni. Exactly. Okay. That was just the beginning. I haven't even translated the program yet.

Yeah. So out of my own pocket, I paid this one. He's not even a professor, true. It's just this one guy, this old man. This old man. This old man that knows nothing about telephone, doesn't know anything about computers, engineering, nothing about technology. Yeah.

This guy lives at the outskirts of Asuncion, which is the capital. Okay. And he lives in a house, beautiful home. Yeah. Beautiful garden. And that's it. He knows what electricity is and that's it. Yeah.

Great gardener probably. Great gardener. That's it. So I paid him $100 a week. Okay. Which is fairly, is a little bit over minimum wage in Paraguay.

And we sit down every day in the garden with my laptop. He'd sit with you. Yeah, we sit down every day. You got a laptop and he's got a...

And he had a screen that I put on so he can see the words. Okay. And 12 hours a day, every day. Really? Translated. I had to show him some

of the stuff well we did translation with it in English and Spanish I mean because it gives you the option on poodle to do it and I'll explain it to him what it was and then he will tell me back and sometimes we had obviously we ran into the issue that we don't there's a lot of words in Guarani that don't exist for right

there's not a one-to-one mapping there's not a one-to-one mapping so we had to create slowly some of the words sometimes we left them in English or in Spanish because that's actually people already know that

in the country so it wouldn't make sense to recreate with something someone already knows what it is like words like password internet, mouse stuff like that right and that's what we did in the country. So it wouldn't make sense to recreate what someone already knows what it is. Like words like password,

internet, mouse, stuff like that. Right. And that's what we did, man, every day. 12 hours a day. How many days? Seven days a week. How many weeks?

Six months. Six months, seven days a week, 12 hours a day. You and an old guy sitting in a garden translating LibreOffice. That's it.

I will go back home after that. There's a lot of words that repeat themselves while you're doing a translation. So I will get that word translated once, and then I'll go back home, and I'll speed up the process again. I'll translate all those words, or that word that repeats, I don't know, a thousand times inside the program, right? We ran into tons of issues, man.

Tons. Translating what would be writer, what it would be writer, it was fairly simple. I mean, not simple, but it was easy to get into. Once we got into calc, or the equivalent of Excel, it gets pretty tricky. You have equations, you have economics, you have all this crazy math stuff.

And we had sentences that were huge that we had to translate. There's never been that. Not even the Paraguayan government has ever done it before. And we just started doing it. So did you do it? And we did it. You did it. So did you do it? And we did it. You did it. Well, I, well, I basically, so I, LibreOffice comes with a writer, impress, calc, draw. Draw is like a sketch app or something. Like

a sketch app. You can create, you can edit PDFs and stuff like that. Right. Right. And then he has database and formula. So I was like, no way. I'm not going to do all of it. It doesn't make sense. So I did the first four. I didn't do formula or math. A little bit I did it. I didn't finish it.

So eventually I did 60% of the job. And while I was creating... In the six-month time period? In six months. So while I was doing the translation, I forgot to say this. But Guarni, the grammar, it uses a Roman alphabet, a Latin alphabet, plus some extra letters, I guess you could say. It uses six extra letters with an accent.

I mean, it's not much. But it's not easy to use it on the keyboard. So I was frustrated at the keyboard so I was frustrated at the time when I was doing the translation so I created the first Guarani keyboard layout for Ubuntu and then I went for Mac

and then for Windows so I started doing that and I was able to finish it I'm not finished but I reached my goal at least and so the the big picture goal is you want to give people who only speak guaranin access to office yes so that they can actually have careers well at least or at least the ability to change to learn and maybe

in guaranin then they can learn to learn in spanish but at least they can use the tool right so what was that like where do you you put that into LibreOffice? Is there a file that has all the strings in it? Or are you actually editing the source code? No. To translate in LibreOffice, all you have to do is really simple. Yeah. You just got to have the time.

You go to this website, which is based on Poodle. Poodle is similar to Transfx. I don't know if you ever heard of it. No. The word shows up, you translate it. Done. You don't have to code. You don't have to know any of that stuff. Very simple. Very simple GUI. That's nice.

So, 60% in six months. Plus, I had to do revisions. I had to go back and do it. The job was done? What happened next? The job was done? Did they lift you up on their shoulders and carry you into town? No, not really, actually. That's too bad.

So, during while I was doing the work, I tried to get private institutions and the government to help me out. And no go. If they couldn't see it, they're not going to help you out. It wouldn't, it didn't make sense. It's like, well, why would you do that when you could just use it in Spanish? Right. But didn't you tell them that most people don't know Spanish? It's a waste of time.

Okay. It was done. How many, uh, you gave me a percentage, 90% or what's the number of people that don't know Spanish, but only know Guarani? Okay. So statistics goes like this. 90, 90% of the country speaks Guí, and they're bilingual in that sense. Okay.

Okay? 40% don't speak Spanish. Don't speak Spanish. And most of those people live in the smaller town or the villages. And then you have 60, and then 30% of Paraguayan speak, Guaraní is the a first language and they also speak Spanish. But the information they absorb in Spanish it doesn't stay. Minuscule okay. So in a way it's gonna be useless. Yeah. Right. So give me raw numbers then like how many people live in Paraguay. Like give me a... Paraguay has seven million. Seven million? It's a small country. Still but in raw I mean think about that many humans. Yeah. It's a good country. Still, but in Iran, I mean, think about that many humans.

Yeah. That's a good number of people. Okay. Continue. You were telling me what happened with the funding. You're trying to get some funding afterwards. Okay. So after a year of talking to the government, to the Paraguayan government, there's a, well, they call it in Spanish, secretory.

All right. What am I trying to look? Like a ministry of political and linguistics, that's what it's called. Okay. Okay. After a long time, I finally got them, or they finally, they decided to help me finish the translation. Previously, they have done the translation of Firefox to Guarani, which is a much smaller project, which was, it's good and it's necessary. Sure.

Um, and now we started doing the, uh, so you're going to go to the liberal office and with that, we're trying to standardize the language as well now. Um, and modernize it a little bit too. Yeah. So you're, uh, you're funded and this is your work now. How long was that going to last, you think? Well, this just happened recently, like two months ago. Okay.

So we're kind of going there. It's slow, you know, a little bit slow. Everything that's government is always slow. So how does that bring you to OSCON London? Like, tell me that. I just moved to London two weeks ago. Oh, you hate moving I hate moving

and I I saw that on the LibreOffice mailing list they were looking for a volunteer to be an Oscar and I figured why not come here

and the network is working out very cool I'm here with you now I get to know you that's awesome great story anything else that you want to say with regard to LibreOffice or the conference is working out. Very cool. I'm here with you now. I get to know you. That's awesome. Great story.

Anything else that you want to say with regard to LibreOffice or the conference or your efforts? So that was the first part of LibreOffice. LibreOffice, I mean,

I always liked the whole Linux world and stuff like that. And I always thought Linux is just coding, pure coding. And it's not like that. There's tons of possibilities within open source, truly.

You can do the translation. You can do journalism. You can do presentations. You can do, I mean, it's infinite. And that's one thing I learned over these past few years. And LibreOffice has helped me out with that. Tons of ways to get involved. Lots of ways to help others.

Yeah, tons of ways. And it makes your curriculum much nicer. Yeah. It stands out. Well, I mean, I think it stands out on a resume for sure. Even more so just the story of how you stuck with it and got it done. That's an achievement that no one can really take away from you.

Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. You mentioned it before we started, but you didn't mention it on the air, which is that in addition to the user interface and all those other things, is that there's also the dictionary and the thesaurus.

So I did recently, before I moved out of Paraguay this year, I went to the library and I bought a small book. Not small, it's fairly big actually, of thesaurus, thesaurus dictionary. And I sit down every day and I copy left and right. So I guess I'll be the first Guarani thesaurus for Office. So any application that uses a spell checker, I believe it's called OTX or OXT. I can't remember the name of the extension. You can use it.

So it's not just limited to LibreOffice. And I mentioned I did the keyboard layout. I want to do, my main goal would be to do the dictionary and the autocorrect, but that's a huge project. I don't think I can do that by myself anymore. Dictionaries are big. Yes, because, especially autocorrect, because one word you can conjugate in a hundred ways. Yeah.

So. Here's an idea. You should get more old men. More old men. To sit with you and help you out. I think a team would be probably a nice thing to have

yeah it takes I mean I couldn't have done this without money and a lot of people think because it's open source

it should be free right and it could be free but there's a cost yeah nothing is nothing is free right

nothing is free if it was free it wouldn't exist right it wouldn't exist it would not be a quarantine translation. Awesome. Thanks so much for telling your story, man. That's a blast.

Thanks, man. Pleasure. That was fun. Thanks again to our friends at OzCon for making that trip possible. Heading out to OzCon London was a blast. Had a lot of fun. Talk talked to a lot of people. Keep an eye out for more conversations from OzCon London on Spotlight.

Head to changelog.com slash spotlight. Click subscribe, don't miss a show. And next up is our friend Stu Karov who started a Linux user group for kids called the Asian Penguins. Love this story. Nothing gets me more excited than teaching kids how to program, getting them involved, getting their minds thinking about things like this. They learn to

install, use, and configure Linux and open source software. How hacker is that? Let's take a listen. So let's start off with, tell me your name, where you're from. My name is Stu Kirov, and I'm from St. Paul, Minnesota. And Stu, you know, you stopped by the booth yesterday. As I mentioned before, we're here on behalf of All Things Open, producing this podcast series, kind of shining a spotlight into this conference, into the community around this conference, but more importantly, helping to share the interesting stories from people like you that come here and speak or attend. And you've got a talk coming up here in a bit. And you told me the story about middle schoolers hacking on Linux,

making, you know, repurposing basically what some might consider trash, trash computer. They turn that computer into a usable Linux computer and they give it away to somebody who's in need. That's the snapshot of your story to a degree. Absolutely. Help us understand, what is the school you work at again and what is this mission? The name of the school is Community School of Excellence. We're a K-8 charter school in St. Paul. And our focus for school is Hmong language and culture integration.

I'm not sure if your listeners are aware of this, but the city of St. Paul has a very high population of Hmong, either refugees or children of refugees. And so as a result of that, we've had several charter schools catering to the Hmong community spring up. And Community School of Excellence is one of those. And so at what point did you begin this program that we're going to talk about now? The program started in 2012. Did you start it then? I did.

Okay. And the way that this started was our school was beginning a one-to-one laptop program using Windows laptops. Very shortly into the program, we started coming across the problem that a lot of the kids were breaking their laptops, and we really didn't have a plan for what to do about that. And it was difficult for me to try to integrate tech into my class if the kids did not have tech because they broke it, they lost it, they forgot to charge it last night, they didn't bring it to school. So I went and got a hardware grant from a nonprofit in Minneapolis called Free Geek Twin Cities.

Now, among other things, they recycle computers using Linux as the operating system. That gave me four Linux desktop PCs in my room for the kids to use who didn't have the laptops. And from there, we had this club grow out of it because kids started coming back to my room after school to use the computers while they were waiting for the after-school program to start. And they loved the fact that Linux was fast, it was eye-catching, it was different than what they were used to using. It worked while the laptop they broke didn't work anymore. So there were a lot of things about it they really liked.

And I couldn't leave until 4.30. Their program didn't start until 4.30. So I thought, OK, if I'm stuck with you guys for 20 minutes, let's at least try to get something out of it. How about we learn how these computers actually work? And the kids said, yeah, sure, that sounds like fun. And so we started doing hardware and software lessons. And from there, I taught them how to install apps, how to eventually we did an install fest one day where we replaced the operating system and upgraded all the computers. And a club started to form out of that. All the kids were Asian. The mascot of Linux is a penguin. So I said, you know what? This group ought to have a name.

What do you guys think of Asian penguins? And they all loved it. And we've used that ever since. I asked you yesterday, too, because I was like, why Asian penguins? And you described to me, you said Hmong. Tell me again about the students who go to this school and their circumstances in life. Oh, of course. You mentioned poverty. I'm not really sure what the circumstances are.

Fair question. The Hmong people are a group of folks who are from more like the rural hill areas of Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, and southern China. And they're refugees. Yes. And there happens to be a lot in St. Paul, Minnesota. That is correct. Okay. First wave of those refugees started coming to the United States in 1975, and a lot of them settled right in St. Paul.

And then we had successive waves after that. And so we have per capita, we have the largest Hmong population in the United States is in Minnesota. Now, in addition to that, we have a more recent group of refugees that have come in from a different war, from Burma, and that is the Karenni people. And now about 12, no, I'm sorry, 15% of our school this year is Karenni. So we actually have two different people groups from Southeast Asia there. And so the name still applies, though? Absolutely, yeah, the name still applies.

This doesn't really matter as part of the bigger story, but what happens when it doesn't apply? Will you change the name? We've talked about that. And actually what we want to see happen this year is... You call them like hacker penguins maybe instead of Asian penguins. Well, we've toyed with a few different things. We think what we're going to do, and this will actually be more applicable when that first school other than ours decides they want a Linux Club 2. What we've decided is we're going to form a larger umbrella organization that chapters can function under, but each chapter will be free to call themselves whatever they like. We will probably continue to stick with Asian Penguins and other schools that if they wish to come on with us can choose the name for themselves

and will be part of a large organization. At least that's the goal. Yeah, when I listened to your story yesterday and I had some time over the evening to think about it a bit more, I just could not stop thinking about how hacker it is. As you know, I mentioned it's right here on our banner. We recently did a revamp of our brand and we sat down in a room, we hunkered down for two days straight with no computers, no cell phones. And this was a year

ago in a branding session to figure out who we are as an organization, who we wanted to be in the future. And what it really came down to was people and stories that get to the heart. And obviously, we're hackers. The Change Log is all about open source software development, connecting that with software development communities, and the people aspect. So it came to me that our brand is around hacker to the heart. And so that's where we're at. And I couldn't think of anything, in my opinion, more hacker than what you've done with these children to have that spare 20 minutes and not waste it and use it well and teach them about technology and invite them into that, especially

children who are part of families who are refugees and who need love and who need acceptance and invitation and education, frankly, you know? Absolutely. And you created this program around helping them learn how to hack around Linux, basically. Can you give me more details around maybe the technical sides of it, some of the things they do, some of the things they've learned over the years? Okay. Since it's from 2012, we've got several years, right?

And we've actually tried approaching a few different things in that time. The first and most immediate thing is that we want every kid in the club to at least once experience installing the operating system itself. When people go to a store and they buy a computer, a lot of them simply just take it as is. It's the default choice. Whatever it came with, that's what it has, why would it have anything else? And we try to take the mystery away from that. We hand them a flash drive and say, no, this computer doesn't have any of that.

It's been wiped completely clean. You're going to put it there. So every kid in the club, at minimum, does that. But from there, then we have them learning how to install the apps and configure the apps that we want the computers to have, depending on where they're going, there'll be different packages of apps, and teach them, you know, a few different ways to make sure the apps get onto the computer. It's like, well, you can use the app store for your distro, that's one way, and it's easy. You can use G-Devi for things that aren't in the software store,

but you still want the computer to have, and you can use the terminal window. You're going to experience all three. And so they can see what the differences are and how each one is going to apply in different circumstances. Depending on the hardware available, sometimes kids are also doing things like installing hard drives or RAM, depending on what the machine needs. Because again, we don't always have time to do these things, you know, just for kicks. So, you know, it's like generally if we're

working on a computer, it's because we have a plan for it. But we've had kids also installing video cards in the past, and we've had, also installing video cards in the past and we've had so a few different odds and ends like that. And then there's also, you know, just troubleshooting and testing things to make sure everything actually works. Right. What, I'm curious, what flavor of Linux? We have used Ubuntu ever since we started. You know, it's like everybody's got their own opinion about which distro is their favorite. And that was the one that I was using at the time we started. It was the one that our first computers came with from Free Geek, even though actually they don't use Ubuntu anymore now. They use Zubuntu, which is pretty cool too. But as far as our technology plan for the school,

it is worded as our school now says we are one school with three platforms, Windows, iOS, and Linux. So the door is always open to us to change to something else. And I've actually had the, oh, it was a week or two ago? Yeah, it was like two weeks ago. We had, for our club meeting that week, it was a lesson on different distros or versions of Linux. And so I had computers set up with like six or seven of them around the room. And so the kids were supposed to just go around and try each one out so they could see what's the same, what's different,

and just get that message that says Linux and open source are about freedom. You have the freedom to make this look and distribute it the way you want it to be. And there are other options, too. Right. Yeah. But we've traditionally used Ubuntu, and the kids like it. So there's been no questions about that.

Gotcha. Ubuntu is my flavor. Yeah, I love it. I love it. We actually just had Dustin Kirkland on the ChangeLog recently talking about Ubuntu everywhere and how you have Ubuntu and all over the place. Their recent partnership with Microsoft, putting Bash on Windows and that fun story there. So did the gentleman mention any plans about putting an Ubuntu phone in North America available for sale? He did not. Darn. Okay. We wait.

But they do say Ubuntu everywhere, so I imagine it's part of their plan at some point. I'm still waiting. I've got to upgrade my phone. So this story, it struck me as interesting for many reasons. One, children is, you know, educating the younger hacker generation to me is like, and you began this out of the kindness and goodness of your own heart. I didn't even ask you what kind of teacher or involvement you had at the school was.

What was your primary reason? At the time, I was a middle school social studies teacher. Okay. So you're a social studies teacher who says, I've got a spare 20 minutes. I'm going to lend a hand to these children and eventually evolve this into this club and now potentially even a movement. And my hope is that we help you share this story because what I think is, and you know this as well, but I think that there's something you've done that's very beautiful and very magical and very perfect for the hacker heart. And that's

where we're coming from. To share this story as a success story for other schools or other places to follow and potentially, you know, take what you've done here with Asian penguins in your school and help others adopt the same kind of practices and the same kind of commitment to the younger generation hacker, teaching them and giving them not only the education, but there's another part of this, which is the recyclability of these machines. So you have corporations. And I'm telling part of your story for you, but to fill in the gaps when you feel like it. But you've got corporations, you've got people, you've got machines out there that basically are trash to them. They're getting ready to donate or give it away or throw it away. And you're repurposing this with Linux machines.

Absolutely. And that has become the core of our community donation program. In 2013, we started looking around at our school and talking about our own digital divide, and we knew that there were lots of kids that went to our school that, you know, didn't have a computer. And, you know, the main reason is cost. You know, if you are a recent, you know, immigrant to the United States, you're, you know, and you've just come fresh out of that refugee camp in Thailand, and you're still trying to make your way in the new world, you know what, a computer is just not going to happen, okay? You can't afford it. It's low on your list.

Exactly. It's like, you know, that computer on sale at Best Buy, it might as well be on the moon. It's just not possible, especially if you've got a number of kids. And many of these kids come from large families. So about 30% of our kids at the time, if my friend's survey is to be believed, yeah, it's probably pretty close. Didn't have computers at home. So we said, you know, if Regeek can do something about this, maybe we can too.

So we got a hold of some used computers, and then we found some families to help. And I had the kids install all the software because I thought, you know, it would be more meaningful if you guys did it. And that's really, I want to see us go in that direction. So I had a couple kids, you know, it'd be more meaningful if you guys did it. And that's really, I want to see us go in that direction. So I had a couple of kids, you know, come in to my room and work on the computers, get them all ready to go. And we started giving computers away. And what we found was, is that the more that we did that, the more the kids wanted to do it because they wanted to be involved in something that was helping others. Last week, we spoke at the MEA conference, which is the big state teachers convention in Minnesota. And one of our speakers on that team was a seventh grade boy named Lee Ray. Now, Lee Ray is a Kerini student, and last year he joined the Asian Penguins and was also a recipient of one of our computers,

because like any other kid at school, or at least like a lot of kids at school, he qualified for the program. Now, what I didn't plan, it was kind of weird, when it came time for his turn to go on a mission, it just happened that his name was also the one drawn for who was going to get the computer that week. So he ended up being on the team that was delivering it to his own house. So he was translating to his mother that day. It was really funny, but that turned out great for him. So this year we made him part of our speaking team. When I asked him about what he liked about the Asian Penguins, he said, I like giving computers to people who can't afford computers. He speaks from experience because he was one of those kids. He was a recipient. Absolutely.

And he also helped build the same machine he got to receive. And the Asian Penguins now gives a kid like him the opportunity to be the generous one. Because now he gets to turn around and help other kids. I mean, how cool is that? That's cool. Yeah. So one thing I want to have as an artifact from this conversation is, one, awareness of the community that you've done this very selfless act that has turned into this, what I hope becomes a movement, honestly. And I hope that you can help others who have the same desire or the same care for doing something similar to essentially have a copy of your recipe.

You know, whether it's something you write down, whether it's something you go and speak, you're here at All Things Open, you're giving a talk here at 330, so you're sharing that with this community, and this podcast is a part of the series we're doing for the conference. So ultimately, I was really hoping that you can share with me any ideas you have for how to repeat this elsewhere. Sure. And if there is any repetition happening or plan to happen, how can they get in touch with you, Or what's the plan for repeating this model? Okay.

Well, let's start at the finish line is how they can get in touch with me. People can follow me on Twitter. It's at Stu Keroff. So it's at S-T-U-K-E-R-O-F-F. My email address at the school is StuartK at CSEMN.org. And you can check out all of the information about the Asian penguins on our website, which is www.asianpenguins.org. So that's how you can get in touch with us and find out more about the program. But as far as how to replicate it, the first thing that has to happen is that you do have to have an adult

that wants to be a risk taker and wants to plow in and learn how to make this work. I love Robert Litt's example because he's a teacher in the Oakland School District in California who started the computer lab at his school with recycled hardware and open source software and did it all for free. His school couldn't afford anything. And he said, and I quote, when I started, I didn't know a darn thing.

Wow. Now, when I started the Asian Penguins, I did know a few things about Linux because I had been using it for maybe five years at that point. But I think the big thing was, is that I was willing to learn more about it and be willing to share what I've learned. Okay, the kids will simply respond to somebody who's willing to share what they know. You don't have to be a developer. You don't have to be a sysadmin. You have to be somebody who loves kids

and you're willing to learn a few things and share what you know. Second, you do need to have some way of getting computers to work on. Your school might be in the process of doing its own upgrader or recycle, and you could be doing them a favor by taking computers off of the IT department's hands that they don't need anymore. The first people I would ask, because our IT department has provided me with computers. But corporations in your area, thrift stores, eBay, most states will have some sort of surplus exchange where state agencies retire computers and then they're sold to qualifying state agencies. The Asian penguins have gotten computers from every one

of those sources and so can other people. Okay. So figure out where your computers can come from. They're out there. Don't think, you know, it's like, where am I going to get computers? People are upgrading all the time. Just ask. Every year, every two years. Absolutely. And it can potentially even be a write-off, potentially, depending upon your school situation or if it's a nonprofit school or if you have somebody who can be, you know, there's a way for a nonprofit essentially to adopt your mission and take that donation on your behalf and give it to you as a grant or something like that. And especially a school, because most, I mean, if you're a public school, you know, a charter school in particular, guess what? You're a nonprofit entity. Right.

Okay. You can take donations. All right. You can give people a receipt for the stuff they give you and they can deduct it from their taxes and everybody wins. But once you start doing that, then you need to give the kids an opportunity to play with the software, use the software, have fun with the software, and once they see what it's like, then give them an opportunity to add to things. Give them an opportunity to install things, give them an opportunity to take the lid off of the computer and try adding RAM or a video card to it or something like that.

The kids will love doing all of that stuff because the devices they use nowadays, like phones and tablets, they don't open. And? And they're used to the idea that— They're magic screens, basically, that have nothing inside them. Exactly. As far as they're concerned. Well, and you take a look at adults with their computers, you know, the top of the computer, that case, it's not supposed to open. What are you doing? Don't touch that.

Yeah, that's the family computer. Don't touch it. Yeah. It's like, well, you know, so it's like— I love it. You encourage this hacker heart that's like—I mean, I think this is such a cool story that you the family computer. Don't touch it. Yeah. It's like, well, you know, so it's like. I love it. You encourage this hacker heart that's like. I mean, I think this is such a cool story that you've done this. And I really, really would desire you to.

And I really hope that you can through this, you know, through this audio, too. But, you know, in more ways than one, share the knowledge you have so that others can repeat it. And be someone to call upon when they have questions. I don't want to put too much burden on you, but it seems like you have a pretty big heart for this. Send me the questions. I would love to talk to people about this, particularly folks that want to try doing this themselves. Listen, we are the first Hmong school in the world to have a Linux users group, and I cannot find too many examples of middle schools that are doing anything similar. I found one program in New York State that's doing something with open source, but it's a different model.

Theirs is cool. I'm not dissing it, but it's like I'm not finding a lot of examples that mirror what we do. And we neither want nor need to be the only ones. I want to see Linux clubs. I want to see open source clubs spring up at other schools so that my kids have somebody to network and to partner with and to communicate with and to build community through technology. Yeah. So those are some of our goals. Send me the questions.

I'm not afraid of that. Awesome. Bring it on. Well, Stu, in closing, you know, the audience, as I mentioned, it's the audience of all things open. It's the audience of the changelog. We're going to put our full weight behind sharing these stories from this conference. What haven't I asked you that you want to share

that you know this community needs to hear? There's one more thing I want to mention, and that is most of the pitch that I've made with the Asian Penguins when we talk about this is to other schools. Our pitch today is slightly different because there really are not that many representatives of schools at this conference.

These are folks that work in the software and hardware industry for the most part, okay? What I want to encourage people here to do is to reach out to those organizations or schools in their area to find out if there's interest in doing something like this in a place where it doesn't already exist. Okay? Call your local school. Check out charter schools in your area to see if they want something like this in their after-school program. Donate computers to a church or a synagogue or a mosque.

Network with a nonprofit agency that helps to resettle recent immigrants and refugees. You know, be a techno-evangelist, okay? If you believe in the code that you're using, then be the messenger for it. That's my message. Awesome, Stu. Thank you so much for taking your time with us, man. I appreciate it. It's a beautiful story. And to the listeners out there listening to this, take this story, run with it, share it with whomever you can. I think it's awesome. Thank you so much, Stu. All right. Thank you very much. You have a great day. You too. Thanks again to Justin Dorfman, who made the connection from us to All Things Open, specifically Todd Lewis.

Todd, you're awesome. Thank you so much for including us in your awesome, awesome conference. Allthingsopen.org. Go there, check it out. But next up, we've got no other than xia lu on how china does node as i mentioned before in the intro software development is very different in china pretty much because of the slow translations of documentation and books from english to chinese but also because of this great firewall of china you've heard about it's a censorship and surveillance project by the

government makes it very hard to do the internet basically. Let's take a listen. My name is Shia. I am from China. I moved to the US when I was 14 and I stayed there for about eight years and then I moved back to China for a year. And yeah, now here we are. I've already been back for about a year or so. So that's why I'm here at the conference to share a little bit about my experience transitioning between the two worlds. So for those out there in the developer world, we, you know, in any world, really, we hear about news from other countries, right?

And we, I've definitely heard about, but hadn't looked too deeply into because it didn't matter to me, I guess, to a degree. Not so much in a negative way, but it didn't impact my day-to-day life, so I didn't look much further to it. But I've heard about the Great Firewall in China, and I'm aware of this. I'm aware that China is a communist country, and you have different ways you live there than we do here in the United States. But for the web, we're sort of like a global economy, right? We're a global people where our national borders define us and separate us. But on the web, we're a bit more like family. So kind of give me a peek into your experience then,

having lived in and grown up in China, then move here and then move back. And what's been your experience with the way we do do the internet I guess right okay okay um I'm gonna start off by saying that China isn't really a communist country oh it's not no where does that come from I guess because the central party is called communist party but it's not exactly what you would picture what a communist regime is like. Although I don't really want to talk much about politics. I'm glad you corrected me there. I don't want to put any misinformation out there. It's not my intent.

Okay. Okay. So my experience has been in, well, I came to the U.S. in 2007. And at that time, the Great Firewall wasn't really built yet. So everything was open. Facebook was available. Wikipedia was. And I logged on to all these websites back home.

But about in 2008 and onwards, the Great Firewall started getting built. It started getting built. And it's been perfected over the years. And more and more websites. At first, it was just Facebook and Twitter. And then it added up to Gmail and Google and a lot of other big websites that you would use day-to-day life in the U.S. So that causes a lot of trouble in in the developer world because if everyone's used to use um like you know google cdn or put a facebook login on your on your site that is just never going to work in china because the mass majority actually don't have access to these websites

so so um i guess from transitioning from the two worlds, the biggest thing is that you have to change your habits a lot, from Googling to using Bing or Baidu. And basically, kind of lose contact with your friends on Facebook because it just slows you down so these networks that we're so used to using are actually our bubbles right yeah we don't think about it like that we think that we create our own bubbles by choosing our friends on networks or whatever or communities that were involved in I guess bubbles by choosing our friends on networks or whatever, or communities that we're involved in, I guess just by choosing one, like Google.

So Bing works in China then? Yeah. How do they get around it? Well, Microsoft has pretty good relations with the Chinese government. But Google doesn't? Google doesn't. Google is more of an internet company, and Microsoft started off as a software company. Right.

And that is how the basis went. So give me the basis of your talk then. So you're obviously sharing some of your experiences with living behind a firewall, living behind basically, what would you call that? Separation? How do you describe this firewall and what it does to the community behind it? Okay. what it does to the community behind it. Okay, so it's a very common practice for developers to log on to a VPN that goes across the borders every day for work.

And that's the first thing that you do every day to start working. And for us, in the beginning, it's actually okay, since as long as you're onpn you can have access on everything uh but but uh vpn has always been on the hunt um it's on the what like are we're on the hunt by by either the security department they're looking for you right right so so like i was using one when i just went back and then three months later it closed, so I had to use another service. And a lot of my friends set up their own for servers. I just ended up using some services.

And it's constantly unstable, and you have to look for the newest, best ones. Okay. And so I guess the thing I'm trying to figure out is that outside of the personal experience you've had as a developer, as someone trying to build stuff. Right. Maybe, I wouldn't say maybe, I'd say for sure here in the United States or even other countries outside of China, I guess, from this example, that we're used to, if there's information for how to be a better software developer, we pretty much have access to it if it's open, right? But that's not the case for China. Right. I would say that the first lesson for software developers is how to connect to VPN. Okay. And then I think the biggest

barrier there still though is language. Much less of the much less of developer experience in terms of whether you can get across because for us developers we can always get across. Right. I was

taking notice to something that's near and dear to us here at this conference we're at node interactive obviously around a node conference anybody who is in the node community right knows what npm is right so seeing c npm which is china's npm so you have the language barrier but then you also have this firewall barrier right um talk about the language barrier first clearly any uh you, from here to South America, there's a language barrier. From here to China, there's a language barrier. From here to Germany, there's a language barrier everywhere. What is your example of experiencing this language barrier?

Right. I think the language barrier is only an issue in countries that don't use English as the working language. And in China, a framework or an open source project like Node is only going to be popular if it has Chinese documentation and advocates in China. So very luckily for Node, there was a few very early adopters in China who wrote books on Node. And that's what people base their learnings and studying from. And I see a lot more people reading books than reading online documentations. Really? Wow. So they actually have an in have a physical book versus online documentation right solve that problem somebody okay yeah so what are the how current are these

books like where do they get how often does a popular or somewhat popular software development book get translated um i would say it depends on i'm not sure exactly how it works but but i think the more popular like o'reilly books they have like translation in the pipeline as soon as it's released right um so they're released in english do they release all the languages too or you said earlier the reason why i asked that question is because you said working language me which means i think what you mean by that is if i'm a professional and I'm doing work or something work related or something like that, then when you go to work, you speak English. That's not the case in China. Are you familiar with other countries how often it's not the working language?

For example, Japan, it's one of the bigger countries with english as a working language so when people in japan they they don't go to work and speak japanese they go to work and speak english primarily oh no i they would speak japanese but they would read english um it depends on the company right so all of this is a uh as an international company that's primarily U.S.-based. Most of our coworkers, even in China and Japan, will speak professional English and write pretty good English, but it is harder beyond that. It's hard to make pleasantries in English. Right, right.

So with your talk, what were you really trying to make people aware of? What was the core goal for you? Okay, so while I was in the U.S., I also never considered how certain websites are inaccessible in China. So when I built my own site, I just used Google CDN or Facebook logins and all these features. But then when I'm back in China, it's such a big problem. And also, there's so many internet users in China that it just can't get ignored. And the practice of people getting around these problems

are very counterintuitive than what we believe that are good practices in web development. I guess this talk is really just for people to be aware that there are these caveats that you need to think about when you have visitors from other countries. There's so many people using internet in China right now that you're just going to get so much more volume if you have a website that's China-friendly.

China-friendly? Yeah. That's a good thing. I like that. I'm China-friendly. I mean, I want to be friendly with everybody. We're obviously at a developer conference. Right. I'm thinking to myself, as you're saying that,

who does that matter most to? It's almost like when you say accessibility to the web, if I don't have an application that has a lot of users who maybe have accessibility problems, and language is definitely one of them, to me it's like, for developers, totally makes sense that we should have translations. It totally makes sense for O'Reilly to ship a book,

not only in English, but in any other native language where there's a need for it. This message you're sharing about the language barrier, about being able to tap into the large China audience, who does that come up most to? Is it developers? Is it, you know, obviously when someone like Facebook builds what they build, you know, their network, they're going to think, well, we should probably make it as accessible to anybody in the world as they can. Right. But who does this matter most to, I guess, this idea you're sharing?

I think it's for us as a company. Auditus has a lot of customers and partners in China. However, a lot of the engineering teams are in the U.S. And so when they were developing, they weren't thinking about a lot of, in the beginning, they weren't thinking about these users in China. And so if you already have a current, if you're not thinking about the China market, it's fine. Right. That's what I mean. Like if it's not a part

of your business models i guess kind of what i was thinking like not that it doesn't matter by any means but just like if it's uh if it's not my focus right right yeah yeah if if you have already have customers in china then you should be thinking about them but see personally it is of interest to me because i had never considered it and we run podcasts I want everybody to listen to it now naturally I speak I speak English that's my primary language so I don't think it'd be worth it to me to have my podcast translated however we could transcript them which we are doing and those could easily be transcribed to different languages if we wanted to. But it is important to me to be inclusive to the whole world, including China, of course. I mean, you have so many people there. I would want anyone there who cares about the

things we care about, which is open source, software development, open community, inclusivity, you know, diversity, all those things that we really care about. I'd want them to be able to listen to my shows too. So for someone like me who uses Fastly as our CDN, which is a U.S.-based company, what would happen if someone goes to changelog.com? Our servers are Linode servers. They're based in the United States. Our CDN is an international CDN. How would someone from China be impacted by going to changelog.com? Would they be able to listen to my shows?

Would they not be able to? They will be able to. We don't force them to use Facebook. We don't use Google CDN. We have our own CDN. Okay, cool. Well, any server that's outside of the borders is going to be a bit slower than servers that are within the borders. So you're looking at a page load time of a couple of seconds

instead of milliseconds. Yeah, milliseconds for sure. Right. We focus on speed. Yeah. Then you definitely would need to have a service in China. Plus we built the website just for fun. We built it in Elixir, which is known to be pretty fast

because it sits on top of the Erlang VM. And we use Phoenix Web Framework. And we purposefully used a smaller JavaScript footprint. We purposely didn't use frameworks that would have more than we needed just to have a couple of features. And we actually wrote our own JavaScript for our own web player.

So we did some things to kind of keep it fast for those reasons. So for people like us or people that aspire to be like us to have that kind of focus with speed and our own CDN, what can they get right, I guess? Using our own CDN, that's obviously helpful, but you mentioned the speed barrier. What's the speed roughly for outside the borders? Just curious. It really depends on the weather.. What's the speed roughly for outside the borders? Just curious. It really depends on the weather.

Depends on the weather. Okay. I have no idea what the speed is related to in terms of the different servers because it actually really changes depending on events and political events in the country sometimes. So this is a human thing. Some human is doing this. You say the weather, but it's the winds. But it's the political winds, so to speak right so if i care about um if i care about the china market you know internet and i

want to be open to those users there those those developers there whomever um you know when you think about speed that's one thing right uh sure the winds change and that that that happens but aside from making a performance site what else can can I do to be mindful of the speed barrier? So the best thing to do is always have a server within China, but it is very difficult, actually. So, for example, AWS just got its license in China. And to deploy on AWS, you need to be a registered company in China and have all your paperwork ready. Small business is hard enough. Yeah, exactly.

And it's very difficult to incorporate something in China. So you're not making it any easier. Yeah, sorry. Wouldn't it be just easier? I mean, this is devil's advocate in me saying this, but wouldn't it be just easier to get rid of the firewall? Yeah. Well, there's a lot of.

What's the purpose of it? Like, was it the people of China voting for this thing or desiring it or was it something else? Like, why? Maybe this is a whole different subject you want to go into, but just share what you can share, I guess, about what we could do about it. Is that will it ever go away i guess that's probably the bigger question rather than like get you into an uncomfortable situation we have to explain something that's just tough i'm not trying to put you in a corner and ask you that i'm just trying to figure out like why is getting rid of

it not an option so um so people in china can't really vote for it uh We can't vote. But the thing is, it started in 2008, mainly because we were using Facebook and Twitter to incite protests, and they sometimes become pretty violent. And that was in 2008. And afterwards, it just got expanded. And anybody that, a company that, for example, Google, who would not cooperate with the government on certain, like, censoring certain words searches, they would get kicked out of the country, basically. Right. And they're not hesitant to even kick out Google.

When you got your own version of it, you said Baidu? Yeah, Baidu. Baidu? Okay. And then you got Bing, so good job, Microsoft. What other search options do you have? You have, like, there's this company called 360 Search. There's a company called Sogo,

and there's a bunch of companies making their own search solutions. Right. My personal experience is that they never really compare to Google on how good they are. Maybe because once Google went out of China, there weren't enough competition

for people to be forced to make a very good search engine. That's a good example of having a really good user experience. I'm air quoting. I think Google has a good user experience, but I think that there obviously is some biases where if you compare the results from other engines that you might like those better. But I've always, in a blind taste test, so to speak,

I've always preferred Google's results. Yep. Without any styles, like not even like looking at the page, but just in general, the results I get back seem to be more relevant to me. Let's flip it around then. Let's talk about China to the outside. And so your talk is on, you know, how China does Node. And I think what you're talking around is what we've been sharing here is the speed issues, the language barriers, educating developers on how to better think about using certain web services to communicate to China or be inclusive of China. What about the flip side?

Do we have any problems reaching China servers, reaching China websites? How does that work? So I have noticed that the services and websites and apps that I use that have all the servers in China are a bit slower outside of China than within. But accessible though? Yeah, accessible. Okay. Yeah.

So there's no locking out. It's just filtering what comes in. So I guess since we're talking here, we're at Node Interactive, this series we're doing here is called The Future of Node.js, talking about the future of Node. For those out there listening, these are people who are either in the ecosystem already, developers in the Node ecosystem, and they want to learn more about the future. What can you share about more from your talk

or more from your ideas on the future of Node and where we're going? One thing I mentioned earlier we didn't get to dive much into, which was the NPM of China, basically. How does that play out? So CNPM, I think, actually stands for private or company VPN. It actually doesn't stand for China. It stands for company VPN.

Okay. NPN. And it was both. I had that wrong, then. I just made an assumption. I didn't know until a few days ago, either, actually. Okay. I've just been using it.

Wow. Okay. And so, it's a mirror of npm right uh the the registry yes the registry right and it's a little bit latency couple hours couple i think once a day or so okay yeah so so remember the z-pad thing yeah was never effect oh yeah left pad never affected china because uh when it happened we were like, oh, let's just stop mirroring that part. Let's just not sync that part. Wow.

That's an easy way to avoid it then. Okay, so for those who aren't familiar, what is, you know, give us the deeper side of CNPM. It's a mirror of the registry. What's the point of it? Is it because of the firewall? Yeah, it's because it's much slower to download from MPM. So who got the permission then, I guess, to synchronize this? Did they work with the government?

Did they work with somebody to bypass parts of the firewall to be able to sync the registry? Right. Well, so the firewall doesn't work as that you need permission to do things. It's you just do it until someone stops you. So the firewall doesn't work as that you need permission to do things. It's you just do it until someone stops you. So NPM right now does not have anything political to do with anything political, basically. So there's no reason to censor it, and it's very important's a very so basically until it may cross a line that should not be crossed those are open right okay yes how does

that make you feel I mean do you think does that make you happy sad it's gotta make you sad right yeah I am completely against it I think most people or most of my developer friends are against it too I have met a couple of people who have been working on this project, which I don't call them friends. I think most people can, if you work on this project, you could probably find a better job elsewhere. It's better for humanity. Right. Just kind of curious if someone from china because you you still live there you live in the u.s now right uh i still live in china for another month okay gotcha so

would you get any trouble if someone from china heard you talking like this or just in general sharing information about how things work i think the extent of what I've been talking about is pretty mild, so I shouldn't get any trouble for this. But it's possible. Yes. What I'm trying to get at is that the listeners listening to this should be thankful that you're sacrificing potentially

to some degree. Yeah. I'm not sure what level of sacrifice there is, but there's some concern for you. Well, yeah, but I think this is pretty common knowledge already, so it's fine for me to talk about. Right. And it's pretty open. Everyone kind of knows about this now. Okay.

So for those who are right now in China listening to this podcast, I don't know, maybe we've got 100 people. Maybe it's a big country, a lot of people there. Maybe it's 10, this podcast. I don't know, maybe we've got 100 people. Maybe it's a big country, a lot of people there. Maybe it's 10,000 people. I don't know. What do they need to know about CMPM? What do they need to know about this concern you have of the firewall, this concern of the language barrier? What do they need to know, like the developers inside of China? Well, I think it's definitely more beneficial to learn English because you're

far ahead of people who has to wait and read Chinese documentation. I think that's actually the bottleneck for developers in China is not being able to be updated so quickly with English documentation. That's unique to hear you say that. I wouldn't expect you to say that it'd be just easier to learn English. Yeah. Because it seems like it's part of, you know, your culture, your heritage, what you're from, to keep and maintain rather than to give up. Right. Can you repeat that?

It wasn't really a question. It was just more like just empathizing with you that I find it a little sad that the bottleneck is the translation, that the bottleneck is being forced to some degree. Right. Learning or speaking English. Well, so computer programming is basically invented in English. True. So everyone is kind of forced invented in English. True. So everyone is kind of forced to learn English to program. I guess that's true.

Okay, I'll take that back then. I'm not empathizing. I'm just kidding. No, I think it's, I mean, because I'm a fan of Ruby, right? Right. My roots are in Ruby. Huge fan of Yukihiro Matsumoto. Mats, as we know him well, of creative Ruby languagero Matsumoto. Matt says we've known him well of Creative Ruby Language.

Native Japanese speaker. I mean, he speaks Japanese as his primary language, but he came on our podcast and spoke English, but only after we really asked him to, like, hey, Matt, we will speak slower.

We'll take our time. We'll edit out the parts that don't work out right. We'll make it work. We'll edit out the parts that don't work out right. We'll make it work. But we're open to having people like that on the show, obviously, that aren't only English speakers. So I'm not really sure what my question is. I've caught myself rambling. But that's really all I had.

Did you have anything you wanted to share with the Node world that I may not have asked you? No, I think I have covered everything. Okay. I'll stop rambling then. Cool, cool. Thank you. Appreciate it. Okay.

All right, that'll wrap up the Anthology show today. Hope you enjoyed all the conversations we had. I know Jared and I definitely did being there face-to-face. It's so much fun. Seeing people right there live. It's in the trenches, as we say, and it's so much fun to get out there in the community.

If you're listening to this and you run a conference, invite us to your conference. Email us, editors at changelog.com. We'd love to come there and cover the stories happening in your community. Thanks once again to OzCon, All Things Open, and also Node Interactive.

Thanks also to our friends at ThoughtWorks who run GoCD and our friends at Fastly for the best CDN out there. Also, thanks to Breakmaster Cylinder, a.k.a. BMC. Your beats are awesome. Thanks for listening. We'll see you again soon. Thank you. Bye.