The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - BONUS – Sustain Summit 2018 (Interview)

Episode Date: October 15, 2018

In this special bonus call, Adam and Jerod talk with Allen "Gunner" Gunn about the Sustain Summit. They talk about what it is, the kind of conversations that happen there, issues the open source community are facing right now, and how Sustain stands out from traditional "unconferences." Sustain 2017 was a big hit, and this year's event should be even better. Join us!

Bandwidth for Changelog is provided by Fastly. Learn more at Fastly.com. We move fast and fix things here at Changelog because of Rollbar. Check them out at Rollbar.com and we're hosted on Linode servers. Head to Linode.com slash Changelog. Hello everyone, Tim Smith here, Senior Producer at Changelog. We are so happy to bring you this bonus episode with Alan Gunn about Sustain Summit. This year's Sustain will take place in London at the Pullman London St. Pancras Hotel on Thursday, October 25th. I'm so excited to be flying in for this event. You may see me in some sessions and recording with different folks during the day.

Please say hi. I'd love to meet you. If you don't have your ticket yet, go to sustainoss.org and register. Tickets are $100. All right, let's get to the meat and potatoes. Enjoy. All right, we're joined with Alan Gunner. Gun, do we call you Alan? Do we call you Gunner?

What's your favorite? Most folks that I'm not married to call me Gunner. My mom and my wife have Alan as a preference, but I'm user configurable. Very good. Well, Gunner is so fun to say. I think we'll just stick with that then. I only know him as Gunner. I'm sorry. I'm going to call you Gunner, even if you don't like it. It's sort of like a thing I do. Right, Jared? That's right. You can give me a nickname. I'm calling you your nickname. That's right. Sustain Summit 2018. Gunner, you were the facilitator. You're a core organizer of this.

We were at Sustain last year. We'll have a presence at Sustain this year. Just want to get the word out for people that this is a thing that's happening. It's an important event. October 25th, over the pond this year in London. But first, let's go back to last year because you were a facilitator. I was there. It was a lot of fun.

I'll tell you what. I wasn't really expecting what I got. Whenever you have kind of an unconference or a meetup style event, you think it's going to be very, very laid back, but you facilitated and it was very structured and organized and it was a blast. Tell us about Sustain 2017 from your angle. I would agree with you. It was a blast.

It was a great group of people. And I think it benefited from being timely. I think sustain is going at a lot of questions that a lot of people are asking at a lot of levels. Sustainability of free and open source software projects has been a perpetual unsolved problem. But as they become more foundational elements of critical infrastructure and also critical human rights technology, questions of what's going to help them stick around and what's going to help them thrive have gotten more and more central in a lot of the discussions that we find ourselves in. And so I think a lot of people there, if I would frame it this way, were playing for more like keeps than you are at an average conference

in that they were actually looking for answers. They were actually looking for insights on what sustainability looks like. And I really appreciated working with the other organizers, Open Collective and Sticker Mule and everybody else, because I think they apply such a broad interpretation of sustainability in a very healthy way. It ain't just about the money. It's about the community. It's about the overall health of your individual contributors. It's about the organizational health, no matter what type of organization might be shepherding your open source project. And so I just feel like the energy stemmed in many ways from both the timeliness and the urgency of the topic. So the pitch for Sustain is there's, it's a one day event for open source sustainers, the people you've been telling us about. There's no keynotes, there's no slides, there's no expo halls. It's not a conference, it's a get together. But tell people what they can expect in terms of like what will actually happen,

maybe in context of what happened last year. And will that change? Will it be very similar? What's your perspective? Sure. We model these events. I'm a chronic frequent flyer. We often say that we model agendas to be somewhat like airplane flights. There's a sort of taxiing and takeoff phase. We try to spend as much of our time at cruising altitude as we can, and then we try to, quote unquote, bring it in for landing. And so what we did last year, first thing out in the morning was really try and explore some foundational topics and let people sort of move between a bunch of conversations at their own

pace and their own sequencing to sort of understand different facets of sustainability, different analysis of sustainability, and just really start to build some shared understanding. The bulk of the day was spent in participant-driven sessions. And what we mean by participant-driven sessions, we ask folks when they register, hey, what do you actually want to get out of the event? And we build a soft agenda slate from those topic suggestions. And then at the event, we try to get folks in real time to come up with additional topics that they would like to see addressed. We don't use terms like unconference. Those terms

are sadly overused and have taken on less and less meaning over time as everything has been called an unconference. But what we try to do is say that it is participant driven in that we try to source the material from participants. And we prioritize, if you will, indulge the notion that these events are knowledge markets. We focus on the knowledge consumers, not the knowledge producers. Many conferences have what I call a rich get richer paradigm. Keynoters keep on keynoting, panelists keep on paneling. It's the usual suspects class hierarchy. And what we try to do at these events is identify where the learning needs are, the growth needs, and the folks that have ideas that could use some help building out and try to resource those conversations. We try to bring loving supply from the knowledge supply side

toward those that are looking for answers around sustainability, around project growth and maintenance and governance. And so in doing it that way, we try to set up sessions that are themselves outcome-oriented. Part of why we say no slides is slides are a fail before they start because they assume the so-called presenter knows what those in the room want to hear. And once in a while, they might get it right. But most of the time, they tend to overshare, overdeliver, oversaturate brains. And so we try to set up session formats that are more transactional and that are more question-driven, where we orient facilitators. We give them some basic ground rules so that they feel empowered and understanding the plan. But we try to emphasize to them the need to, first off, find out why people came to your session, find out what they really want to know, and try to center the session focus

around what they came for, not what you think they should get. And that fundamentally transforms participant experience. It sounds a lot like really interactive schooling where, you know, the pupil and the teacher sort of come to a similar level. And it's really about like, what does the student or students or participants need to get versus here's what I want to give them. I would say that is correct. It is one of several different formats. I think I would,

I would say there's maybe if you taxonomize that there's four categories of which, what you just described as one there is. So there's the interactive school. There's the more sort of, we call, around the world or choose your adventure learning format, where it's basically the ability to drop in and just listen. So I think that's slightly different.

But the two other formats, you know, the stuff I just described is what we often call first half of event format, where you're building shared language, you're building connections, you're getting people aware who else is in the room. The two other categories of session formats that we run at these events, what are actual problem-solving sessions? So instead of a sort of supply-side knowledge,

consumer-side paradigm, we try to get people who are motivated to address a common problem or a common opportunity, try to get them into a session format with some framework that allows them to be generative around both characterizing the problem, but also putting forth one or more ideas for how to move that forward. What are believable ways to handle burnout? What are believable ways to take payments without selling out or supporting any particular corporate infrastructure that you don't particularly find yourself in solidarity with? And so that category is the most compelling at these events. Once you've got the shared language, can we build some stuff together? Can we solve some stuff together?

And then the last format type, which we try to do even at these one-day events, is what we call post-event focused sessions. Talk is cheap. It's great to be in a room and drink a lot of coffee and meet some good people. But we try to have a set of sessions on the agenda called Where From Here that focus on, are there conversations you would participate in after today? And if not, that's cool. If this was a good little diversion from your regular reality, good on you.

But if we can set you up to signal other people that you'd like to keep talking about business models or you'd like to keep talking about community governance, we can see if that next conversation can be made to happen by identifying one person who's committing to actually say, I'll send out a calendaring email, or I will announce a time and a place. And so it's in trying to sort of put that arc together from discovery and learning to generative problem solving, and then to trying to turn it into something other than just a wave that crests on a metaphorical event beach and leads to post-event

collaboration. Because at the end of the day, you know, what it's all about is the long-term impact, not just the feel good of sitting in a room and a rectangle of chairs, looking at a bunch of other wonderful, bright, passionate folks. I love that so much, the next steps, because you always, when you walk away from event, it's always kind of now what? And like you said, there is that crescendo. There's that, you get a bit of a buzz of energy at least, or maybe even inspiration to go out and do something afterwards. But if that's unorganized, it dissipates pretty quickly. Maybe by the time you get off the plane

and get back to your house, you know, that's worn off, but with actionable, uh, next steps that people can team up on and move forward, it seemed like you're actually making real progress. Now, I know last year, one of the big things that came out as a result or as an output of this event was a report put out by the organizers. There's a 2017 report on the website, and it kind of summarizes a lot of what's been going on and a lot of the things that everybody came to. What are some other, if you know, things that people, you know, at least rose their hand or I know there was big pieces of paper you sign up, what were some other, if you know, things that people, you know, at least rose their hand or I know there was big pieces of paper you sign up or some other things people were moving forward with?

You may not know if they did or did not, but just to give an idea of kind of the actionable things that were happening at the end of the day. Sure. And I'm not looking at my list of outcomes, so I'll try and freestyle, but one that I found really compelling, and I wouldn't claim this event led to this outcome, but it's something that was discussed at the event and has continued to enjoy some very strong leadership. There's a couple of funders, Ford Foundation and Sloan Foundation, that are really thinking holistically about what they call public interest infrastructure. And so open source software in their parlance is a critical component of public interest infrastructure. And they continue to commission resources and commission research and also to allocate resources to really make sure that we're continuing to have this conversation with a research

driven lens and really trying to characterize that which is and that which needs to be. So I really salute them for the leadership they've shown, both in supporting participation in these meetings. You know, they actually help us buy some plane tickets, but they and their larger program work are driving this dialogue with this research lens and trying to make sure that we don't treat this as a per-codebase, per-GitHub project type of paradigm, but instead think at systems levels around how open source supports critical internet infrastructure, critical public infrastructure, and critical community infrastructure. Some of the other interesting conversations that have

gone forward, I have the privilege of facilitating and organizing a lot of events focused on free and open source. And so there are a number of ongoing conversations about sustainability that I think got wind in their sails at that event. Again, not claiming that they started there, but I think they certainly found springboard momentum there, if you'll indulge me that metaphor. One project that wasn't there, and we're still trying to get into this year's event, but folks like the Reproducible Builds project. I don't know if folks are familiar with that. I think it's one of the most important free and open source projects going, but it's a bunch of folks, many of them from the Debian community, that are trying to figure out how can we build software that we know at a deterministic level is matching the source code we think it came from. And this matters for security,

it matters for integrity, it matters for all kinds of code quality and code reliability reasons. And we've been working closely with them over the past year. I think their approaches to sustainability are brilliant because they are trying to do a multifaceted model where they earn some money, fundraise some money, and otherwise sort of allow folks to contribute in kind. And I've seen a lot of communities doing that kind of hybrid sustainability models. And I think a lot of those conversations that happened last year have just given people food for thought, have given people ideas on trying, quote unquote, more than one thing. Because if I were to offer a loving critique of many free and open source projects, they tend to be a single revenue stream paradigm. Rare is the free and open source project

that really intentionally thinks about a basket of individual donations, large donors, grant funding, earned income, and there are other options depending on your religion, including sponsorship and investment. But yeah, so I think that's the kind of stuff that came out that I found very gratifying. And I think the other conversations I think that have been ongoing are the complex dynamics of the ecosystem. Some of these free and open source projects are tied to large for-profit corporations, and that is neither a good nor a bad thing. It is a complicated thing because values and priorities do not always align. What I find compelling about those dynamics is how resilient having free and open licenses makes that paradigm. And that is to say, with free and open source, you are always able to fork or go in a different direction if

you are feeling that the way a project is going is not consistent with what you want to be working on. But I think those are problems that we will continue to discuss. How do we have free and open source projects enjoy the support of large companies, but also maintain autonomy and vitality independent of any one particular source of sustainability? Long-time listeners of The Change Law

will know that we did talk to Chris Lamb on reproducible builds early in 2017. So this is February 3rd, 2017 in terms of the published date of that show. We'll link that up in the show notes. But totally agree with you on the multi-revenue stream or sustainable streams of not just funding, but just support of a project. All too often do we see the focus simply being on money or the stigma of sustaining open source being just about funds or money. And I believe there's lots of different ways that the community can be involved,

whether it's corporate community, enterprise community, which is kind of the same, or anyone else getting involved. I think it's really important to give maintainers a new lens to see sustaining their projects and their communities, because all too often do we only focus on the money or only focus on the grants or only focus on one in particular, where you really need to think about it like a business might think about it which is if we only got money from this one client or this one customer and they failed to pay us next month or their relationship with us changed where does that leave us you know and it also doesn't allow multiple voices into the community so So having that, you know, sort of polyglot thought around where sustaining comes from opens up the door for a much more diverse and much more rich experience

when it comes to that community or that project. Exactly. And I think to build on that, another tension that I think bears discussing, and I've certainly lived this many times, there is a tension to your point about people sort of having discomfort with money topics. There's also an interesting, I call it a false dichotomy around volunteer contributions versus money flowing in a project. And so there are what I lovingly call true believer projects that don't ever want to go beyond volunteer labor, because there is magic in the fact that everyone is just, you know, sort of contributing with their time and nothing else. And more power to any project that can roll that way. I'm not throwing any shade on projects that are volunteer, 100% volunteer led, but I don't believe that's 100% universal realistic model. And in particular, there are people that have to pay rent and

otherwise feed family and so forth. And so I think the false dichotomy that comes up is, does introducing financial sustainability into a free or open source community compromise the volunteer magic? And it's got to be done right. I've seen it done wrong over the years. I've seen projects that got a big chunk of money and were not thoughtful or intentional about who got it. And that leads to an inside the wall, outside the wall badness. But I think done well, you see communities that make the transition elegantly. We've been working with OpenStreetMap US, the US version of the OpenStreetMap global chapter community. And they are just this week announcing their first ever paid executive director. And it's been beautiful to see the

way that they have, with their community, told the community this was coming, really worked with the community to understand what was going to change and what was not going to change, and have sort of gotten out ahead of that, wait, hold it, now that somebody's paid, does that change anything about all of us volunteer mappers and are we less valuable or respected? it done well as they have, because they have really been an open and transparent board. It's a volunteer-led board of that nonprofit. And they've just done a brilliant job of trying to get out ahead of the community's concerns and make sure the community felt part of the process. So in the transition to both hiring paid staff, but also trying to scale fundraising and communications, which is what the new executive director will be asked to do, it's really, really compelling to sort of see it done well. There's just certain roles in an organization. I think we can, since you said religion a couple of times, you can look at literal churches

or you can look at nonprofits or ministry-based nonprofits and look at their corporate or organizational structures. And there's some roles that just need to be paid placements simply because they have the expertise or the experience and the time involved needs to be such that it's either very much part-time or you know three-quarters time or even full-time that if that's their sole focus you know when we just down life, we do need to earn an income to move along and to do our life together, that those individuals need to be paid somehow, some way. And I like how you said they're preparing their communities for that so that there's no uprising and everyone can sort of share their feelings about how that impacts the project or the funds available to keep moving forward. Exactly. And let me give you a plus one on those facets, accountability. I think I love volunteer

projects, but how many times have I seen the compellingly talented tech lead who is volunteering, not hit deadlines, not come through on commitments and their attitude is, hey, come on, I'm volunteering, back off. And that's legit. You are volunteering. We need to back off because you can't force a volunteer to do anything. But I think part of the beauty of paid roles is it puts an accountability structure in place that is pretty universally understood. You're getting paid to do stuff per an agreement. Especially the ED role, the executive director roles. Those are, they come with such experience from different, they transplant knowledge from places where, you know, they may have been industrial manufacturing and they bring all this expertise of processes and hierarchy that's just necessary or whatever might be the case. I'm just spitballing here. It's very similar to the way enterprises seek out, headhunt, and find CEOs or CFOs is because they've got some level of credibility in a discipline that can be, and even what that salary might be, or even having some sort of understanding of like, not just simply the funds, but like

you had said, the accountability back to that person. What do they bring? What do we get from this person being involved? And they may have been a player already in the community, and they're just graduating to that role. It doesn't mean they have to be transplanted from somewhere else. Exactly. And to build on that, I think the other place where I think a lot of open source projects have room to grow. And again, I say this with intense respect, but I think most open source projects have what I call a single generational frame of reference. As in, we got these folks who are on this project,

we're going to code and code and code or, you know, whatever verbs are associated design, design, design, test, test, test, support, support, support. And I think that part of what events like Sustain try to help us with is thinking multi-generational. What does it look like for founders to actually piece out of a project or become advisors as opposed to primary drivers? What does it look like for, as we, as open source becomes more of a sort of given in our universe? You know, there are those who would say it's been a given for 30 years or others that are just fighting on about it this week. But I think the intergenerational, multigenerational view, there's so much value in those conversations because

people don't have enough succession discussions. They don't have enough intergenerational governance discussions. And, you know, if you look at, you know, there are certain open source projects of the highest profile that have recently experienced some turbulence in leadership. And it was interesting to see that, you know, in those situations, they were well-defined succession paths so that, you know, lieutenants could step up and become interim directors or interim leads. And so to me, that's the other half of this is to look beyond a chapter across multiple chapters of the project's evolution. We see that with, you that with languages quite readily. I mean, we've got some interesting things happening right now. You've got some backlash in the Linux community from essentially BDFLs either departing or

having controversy and just change in leadership. So you see this lifecycle in languages in particular, you know, in our current landscape of open source. And so I think it's interesting to have that perspective because all too often do we think about now versus like tomorrow and the next day or 10 years from now. Like how do we, you know, and not every project is 10 years from now projects or communities. But, you know, if necessary, I think it really makes sense to have that kind of lens. And sometimes we're just so focused on today and surviving that we forget to plan for the future. I totally agree. And, you know, if I were to shout out one of the,

I think real leaders of the sort of sustained community sort of, I would presume to claim her as a member of the community. She can decide whether or not she is self-identified in the same way. But if you've seen Nadia Egbal's report, I think it's called Roads and Bridges, she's done a real analysis of the infrastructural view of what you were just describing and tried to take a long game view of what it looks like moving forward. And so if you haven't seen that report, I just think that is probably some of the most holistic thinking. And that report now is a couple of years old, but it has aged well because it really tried to look at a systemic view of these projects and what it looks

like to figure out which of them need to be fit for purpose for the long term versus which of them are a little bit more ephemeral or modular in their sort of critical role in the ecosystem or systems. Well, I'm sitting here feeling like I'm being teleported back to GitHub headquarters last year, because these are the kind of conversations that we were having at Sustain. And these are the kind of conversations that will continue forward at Sustain 2018. Let's turn our focus on that event coming up October 25th. There's tickets available. It's in London.

Gunnar, tell us about the switch. And we switched continents now. I'm sure that was an intentional move. So tell us about Sustain 2018 upcoming, why it's in London, and what people can expect there. I will confess to not a massive amount of strategic thinking around location. We knew we wanted to get out of the U.S. and try to invite more of the community. And I think we would still like to go further south in future sustain instantiations. But London was a wonderful situation where we had some fine folks that were able to help us out with resources. We just continue to enjoy a lot of love and support from Google and a number of

other event sponsors. Can't say enough nice things about Kat Allman and her leadership over years and years and all kinds of, I don't even, I lose count of how many events that Kat has made possible and herself realized. And so there was a sort of convergence around an ability to take advantage of some resources being provided in that town. We are co-situated with the Mozilla Festival. And by that, I mean, we're not formally linked to MozFest. I'm also a co-organizer of the Mozilla Festival, but we just figured that timing-wise, it just made a ton of sense to do it in London the same week as Mozilla Festival because a lot of the communities and values and passions of the larger Mozilla Festival week and the Sustain event overlap. So we just felt like it made too much sense. And there was just a confluence of other logistical

factors that made it the right place to be. One of the things that we've been making clear to our community at this event moving forward is we welcome the community to tell us where they think we should take this event in the future. And there's also been talk about federating it. Do we need to have one big event or what does it look like to encourage people to organize sort of slightly less resource intensive local or regional versions of this event? But let's just say that we were grateful that London presented itself as a compelling option and a place to have the next round of conversation. Yeah. I have major FOMO as a person who unfortunately due to schedule cannot attend this year.

I have always wanted to go to Moss fest and this back to back events is just like the perfect two for the price of one in terms of people who are doing, you know, heavy travel. It's just a very good idea. Right on. I'll echo the FOMO. That's all the same.

Super bummed. I'll echo the FOMO. That's all I'll say. Super bummed I can't be there. I'll send you all kinds of selfies and stuff just to make it feel really poignant. Nice. You will be there in spirit. I think the voice you all provide is so critical. And I just think the bridge you create with inviting folks like me to share thoughts like this on a podcast, you can claim some credit for some of the energy that's going to be in that room. And we're really, really grateful for you all. It's just sort of being that voice of making sense,

making and guidance within this larger sort of journey around the planet, the event to event itinerant reality. We appreciate that. I mean, you know, we do, we are working towards having some presence there. Tim Smith, our senior producer, we're working on those logistics now, like literally. So right now it's still unknown and questionable, but we think it's going to work out. So we may still have a presence there, just not Jared and myself there being there. But Tim is a great proxy for our organization, well-trusted, great person to be there for us in our stead.

At the same time, you know, it's just such an honor to be able to, you know, serve the community. We've said this over the years to say, we like to shine a spotlight in the places in this community, whether it's in the actual software, knee deep, getting nerdy, or at the macro level, looking at culture and community and how we all interweave. Because in the end, it's people. It's Gunnar on the side of that submit button. It's Adam on the other side of the database looking at things or whatever. So it's people in the end.

It's about relationships. It's a very interpersonal community. And we're just proud to be a part of it. So the details are sustainoss.org, October 25th in London. There are tickets available. There's free tickets for scholarship situations. So if you have that circumstance, definitely check it out. Tickets are $100. You can also do a pay it forward ticket. Take a friend with you. Check that out. Gunnar, any final words for us before we hang up on you?

Just to encourage folks to be in touch if you can't make it. You know, there are ways to sign up and be in contact on the website. And we're really trying to raise our game on making this an ongoing dialogue, not just a once a year fun party to be at. And so if these are topics that resonate with you, please do head over to the SustainOSS site. There are multiple ways to be in touch, social media channels. There might even be an email address buried somewhere on the about page. But yeah, get in touch with us. And if you're interested in these topics, we welcome knowing financially, interpersonally, community governance, you tell us. We really welcome people that are passionate about sustainability topics to be in touch, whether or not you could join us in London, because this is a global movement. This is a critical part of fueling the ongoing impact that free and open source software has in giving us control of our long-term technology destiny. And so if it resonates with you, be in touch.

We'd love to keep you in the loop. Excellent. So one more plug because we do have Slack and there is some, I would say, just community organization behind the scenes here that you can get involved in in the real time. And forgive me if I'm repeating this, but changelog.com slash community. Huge invitation. Everyone is welcome.

You are not an imposter. No matter where you're at in your developer path, this is a place to come and call home. But in particular for Sustain, we do have a channel for Sustain. So if you want to be involved in some of these pre-conversations or post-conversations or what you had said before, Gunnar, which is the where from here. If you want to kind of like sustain that part of it to keep the metaphor rolling, then you can. So I would encourage anyone listening to this, we'll put in the show notes, of course, but changelog.com slash community. You're invited. You're welcome. It does not cost you anything.

It's free. So just go and do it and get involved if that's what is cool for you. It's good to be home, as we go and do it and get involved if that's what is cool for you. It's good to be home, as we say. And it's got dollars on it in front of it. It's all caps, so it's super happy. Nice. Nice. All right, Gunnar, thanks so much for the call.

And, hey, have a great event. We're happy to help support it. Excellent. We are grateful for your support, and we'll look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Thank you both so much. Thanks so much for tuning into this bonus episode of the change log. Again, find more information and get your ticket to sustain at sustain oss.org.

This bonus was edited and mixed by me, Tim Smith. And the music as always is brought to you by the one and only BNC bandwidth is provided by fastly. Learn more about them at fastly.com. We move fast and fix things here at ChangeLog because of Rollbar. Check them out at rollbar.com.

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And I'm Rachel White. We're panelists on JS Party, a community celebration of JavaScript and the web. Every Thursday at noon central, a few of us get together and chat about JavaScript, Node, and topics ranging from practical accessibility to weird web APIs. I like your rhymes with mafia idea. Like, that's a good way to get it across.

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