The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - Finale & Friends (Friends)

Episode Date: March 2, 2026

Adam and Jerod get into the news, Jerod officially retires from the pod (and Changelog), plus a bonus for our Changelog++ subs!

We can listen to the stage logging friends That I'm Jeremy people you know The show Well, it is called finale and friends for a reason, my friends. Today is the end of an era, Jared. Are you sad about this? You have about this? Are you like just beside yourself?

Can you believe it that next week you won't have to podcast? I know. You don't get to, which is it? Don't get to, don't have to. It's both, I guess, in a certain extent. don't get to, don't have to. There's something about having to do something that makes you not want to do it. And then there's something about not being able to do something that makes you want to do it as well.

I got the itch, got the podcast itch. Well, once you've had this it's a while, it's kind of hard to stop the itch. I get that. It is. It's fun to talk to people about the things we love and our technology landscape has evolved and changed, I would say, dramatically over the arc of our relationship, I'd say even like, gosh. Holy cow. I think we first met

2013, 2012. I would say like into 2012 and then 2013 you started contributing. Right. And even then, like the internet was so different. It was.

The interests were so different. And it wasn't like we were besties right away. We barely knew each other. So like it took a while for us to grow and to meet each other. It had taken a little while. I was just logging news back then, news items or whatever we call.

them back on the WordPress blog. And then after a little while, hopped on the pod. I just think we called it a login. I don't know what we called it on us. I don't know. I think you called me a change logger. I remember change logger, that's cool. I want to be a change logger.

It was a term of endearment, obviously. And then we had like semantic debates like, well, are we the change logers or are the people who are listening change logers? It doesn't matter. But these are the things you bike shed when you're trying to figure stuff out. And things were different back then. 2012, I mean, mostly it was like, framework wars. You know, the framework wars were cool. React was out.

Ruby on Real wasn't as cool anymore. I think React had launched. Pretty much. Early in your tenure. Yes. I want to say, what was the fork of Node? I-O-JS. That had happened.

Like early, I would say, I can't remember. I'm probably 24. Shout to Michael Rogers. RIP Michael Rogers. Yeah, I was just looking at some, uh, some messages with Michael recently.

And, uh, for those who don't know, uh, Michael Rogers is, uh, actually I think he was, he,

like helped Isaacs, I believe, if I can recall correctly, like on the early versions of MPM. Like he was critical and it's early, not that it gives MPM any credence this moment, because there's some charters there, but hey,

it begins in great places, right? Michael is at the front of a lot of registry. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Rogers was an early contributor, great friend over the years, came down with cancer this last year, and shortly passed away. Yeah, passed away. A dear friend of ours. Mayor June.

And he was intramental in the I-O-JS fork. And that's when we met him, right? I remember that show. And we all hit it off. That was a great episode. It kind of served a little bit of a purpose to get that story out and help, I think, to a an extent in a small way, I-O- and Node get back together and they resolved it. I mean, it was a fork. It was a hard fork slash re-merge in record time, probably for the history

books. I wonder. There was the MIRB Rails thing, but this was bigger of that because it was more more social. It predated, 2013. It did. Yes. M-R-B-R-R-Rails was probably like early change log, 2009, I bet. Yeah, 2008-N-N-N-N-N. Probably Penguin Days. Yeah. Yeah. P-E-N-N-N-N. Yeah, that was good for I.O.js and Node to kind of come back. I mean, it was joyant. And I believe Scott, I can't recall his last name in the moment, was the CEO at the time. And we had him on the podcast discussing that change. And really just it was about the proper steward of that open source project. And I think at the time it was so new to folks, I was like, how do you actually do this in a way that represents the business? Now, Brian Cantrell was on this podcast. He was CTO. at the time that happened. He could probably speak to some of the technical details behind there. Brian, if you're listening, let's do an insider on the Node I.O. If you have one, obviously, you probably do.

You have an insider on most things. That's right. Cool. From D-Trace to ZFS to Sun to now, full rack, massive cloud compute that you own on premise. So cool. Oxide. Seriously. Yeah.

It has been a journey, man. man. It's been a journey, obviously. I think it's bittersweet for me too because, you know, there's a lot about our relationship that I love. There's a lot about a podcast with you. I just truly cherish. And it's going to be tough. It's going to be different. It's going to be tough to do the show without you. I look forward to it in positive ways because you have to, but also in a lot of negative ways. I think that's one thing with the relationship that you truly cherish, that it's hard to, it's hard to walk away from and not do it with grace.

And that's what I wanted to do with us was just make sure that we walked away with grace and dignity in the process. Because, like, I love you, man. And I love what we've done together. And while the show isn't ending, right. You know, it's, it's just challenging. It's the end of a chapter and the start of a new one.

That's right. I'm sure it'll continue to be great. And it is bittersweet. I mean, uh, change. is part of our name, change log. Change log. It's the hardest name to like only say half of, right? Yes.

Like some names, some brands you can sort of like give them a like a nickname in a way. It's kind of hard to nickname change log. Yeah. Either change or it's log, you know. Right. And then you've got a camel case it or snake case it or hyphen case it. Don't get me started on everybody. Gap in between change and log.

Is that our probably our biggest? shared pet peeve of all time is the uppercase L on a change log, you know, and someone sends you that email. They don't know us. It's a tell. It's a smell. You don't understand how pedantic we are about such things. And, you know, it's a lowercase L guys.

Come on. I think to sweat the details, Jared, you know this. Like, you have to sweat that kind of detail. Like, you have to be that level pedantic to deliver quality at a clip that we have for so long. You have to have that level of care and detail. you have to. Right on. And if you don't, it shows.

I mean, it's not that you can't do it, it's going to show. It's going to show. Yeah. Yeah, if you care, then you'll care, you know. And we certainly care. And that was what makes this hard. Of course, it's going to be,

it's going to be good and bad, as bittersweet, as you said. I'm excited for a new chapter. I don't know what comes next for me. I know in the short term, a little bit of a break will be nice from everything. I'm planting a little tree farm. So getting my hands in the dirt, you know,

kind of doing some of that analog stuff I've been talking about recently. Back to the dirt. Back to the dirt. Ooh, that's a good name too. You know, I came from dirt and I'm going back to the dirt. Call me Joe Dirt. Joe Dirt. Yeah, man.

But we don't need to hover on it for too long. There's big news that surprised the heck out of me. I was going to speak of a crack since you mentioned cracks. Did I mention cracks? Somebody mentioned cracks. My study was this was I think that the rust that the, that the rust world was cracking in a positive way. Lady Bird cracked. Yeah.

And said, you know what? Swift is actually not what we need. Even after the day, careful evaluation early on, they cracked. They said, you know what, rust is actually better. And I think the bigger, more unique crack here, which is I kind of expected in this world was the leveraging of AI. to get there, which I thought was quite, I don't know, I guess at some point, it's going to be everywhere and it's going to be expected and anticipated that AI is involved and everybody's day-to-day coding adventures. So it's not surprising, but nice to see they cracked and came back to the good land, which is Rust. Which is Ross. So a little bit of context here when Andreas Kling and Chris Wonstroth, who has a difficult name to say quickly, were on our pod probably last summer, maybe two summers ago. I don't know exactly when it was, but it's when they announced the foundation around Lady Bird and all the stuff they were doing with the money raise and stuff, or not money raise. What do you saw? Chris donating, just speaking plainly, that whole deal. We asked them about that. And at the time, on

Andreas said, we're going Swift. Like, Ladyburg is written in C++, but they're going to start porting certain portions of it over to Swift. And we released that as a short clip of a longer conversation. And it's become quite a popular YouTube video where people like to go there and argue about whether or not that was right and why Russ is better and why Swift is better. And why didn't they go with Go? I don't know. There's all kinds of comments on that particular video. And so I was very surprised to see this because Andreas didn't really pull.

pulling he punches and saying, not that he dislikes Rust, but that he didn't think it was a good fit for a browser because of how object-oriented the DOM is and how browsers work, take his word for it, not mine. And how that Russ doesn't really have the facilities, he thinks that he would want in order to do that. And he still hasn't really changed on that. He actually mentions it in his blog post about Lady Bird adopting Russ, that he still thinks that, but it's just a pragmatic choice. Rust has the ecosystem. Russ has the momentum.

Rust has a lot of other good things about it. Security, of course, for a browser is imperative and it's so important to the Lady Bird team that it was the pragmatic choice. That's a curveball. I was just like,

didn't see that one coming. I think the way they proved to themselves was less of a curveball when you get into the details. I think when you look at the details, they start with LibGS. That's Lady Bird's. JavaScript engine,

describes it, Andreas describes it quite well in terms of what it is, but it's got a great, it's got extensive test coverage per Andreas, which I think that makes it a good starting point because if you've got great test, it's pretty easy for, I would say, an LLM to say,

okay, here's a bunch of tests that prove all the things. Let's just use that as a great way to get to the other side here. One thing you pointed out was there was, the result was around 25,000 lines of rust. The entire port took around two weeks. We had noted that the same work would have taken him about multiple months to do by hand, which is kind of obvious to anybody who's been using AI coding or agentic coding or an agent.

It's pretty obvious that what you can do in a day or two or a week or two with a tool like that. A 25,000 lines of rust, the entire port took around two weeks, and the teamwork would have taken multiple months to do by hand. But the fact they start with a great project from the inside, like LibGAS with great testing, that is what I think gives you confidence. Like, okay, we've got a great code base with great test coverage. That's a great start to pull in this transition. Yes.

And it's, is it safe to? call Andre has a gray beard. I know he has a beard. I don't think it's necessarily gray. The guy's been around. And his title of this post was Lady Bird Adopted Rust with help from AI. And when I logged this in Change Log News for Monday, I almost pulled that part out because I searched for the whole thing with AI and I was like, well, where is the AI? I didn't get to that LibJS part fast enough. He actually specifically names

Claude Code and Codex for the translation. I was looking for AI and I thought, was he just linked baiting? Is this link bait just saying with the help from AI because he wanted to get more attention? As if he needs help with Lady Bird. It's already a very popular project. And that being said, I actually did find the portion. I was like, okay, this is legit. It makes sense coming from him. But the thing produced a lot of what he calls like C++ style rust, which is totally fine for what they've done so far. And it was just such a very good use of these tools, especially in the hands of an expert, to see how it made that which is intimidating.

If not, I wouldn't call it impossible for him. He certainly could have got it done. But just an intimidating project, so much more approachable. And that's really, I think, the unlock for people of all skills, but even for somebody who could sit down and hand code every single line and does a lot of that work and continues to and takes pride in his craft and all these things. It's like, there's huge unlocks here. And that got me thinking about Rust in general, and maybe its benefit. I know you've been picking some up a little bit

with the help of Claude and other tools, AMP, whatever it is. Rust's biggest drawback is its complexity, mental overhead, right? It's hard to learn. Let me just say that. It's very terse. Yes.

It requires a lot. The compiler pisses you off. Exactly. That code sucks. Yeah, all the things. You know, you know, Even before you put into prod, you know your issues. That's the thing.

Right. Would you learn help perform at compile time? Yes. Compile time bugs better than runtime bugs, as all of our static friends will tell us. I'm still a fan of some dynamic languages, but I totally get it. Ruby. Yeah. I'm just going to.

Ruby for life. I love a Ruby. I was right in Ruby before I started change logging. I'm going to be right in Ruby after I leave change logging. Ruby for life. That's right. So beautiful. So well, again, so amazing.

Yes, Alexa too. So big fans of both of those. But I'm thinking that like, it's such a win for language like Rust to get mass adoption because now we have tools that help us over all of those difficult parts. You know, like eventually, I think if you stick with it, even if you're not hand coding, like you're, you are code reviewing, you are instructing, you are testing,

you are testing, et cetera. I think you learn it over time. But I think you learn it without any of the show stoppers that certain people of stubbornness make it through, but a lot of us just throw up our hands and say, like, add this language is not for me. So I think it really lowers the barrier to Russ and I think makes Rust way more approachable to way more people.

What do you think? As it should be, honestly, as it should be. I think after using it, there's obviously in any language there's warts, right? And there's tradeoffs. But I think largely the, The safety around Rust is just bar none. It's efficiency.

The way it handles memory is amazing. You know, I'm not the super Rustner's. I can't go into it. I love to have that kind of person here to just go deep into it. But the memory efficiency with Rust is just, the one thing would go is you've got the garbage collector. You know, and so if you have an interface or even like a network interface kind of thing that requires zero latency or very, very minimized latency, almost zero, then Rust is your choice over Go. because Go will introduce those steps, those stops with the garbage collector. And they're small, but if the bite matters, then the bite matters.

It could be a database, for example. That's a challenge. One thing he says, though, is if you, I'm in the blog here, he said, if you look at the code, you'll notice it has a strong, quote, translated from C++, end quote, vibe. That's because it is translated from C++. And so I wonder, you know, if that's a bad thing for the long-term code base. Let's just like spitball this a little bit. While there was a test coverage, while there was, you know, an existing code base, existing test coverage,

why translate from C++ versus new implementation? And I know that he was trying to solve a problem. He was trying to prove the concept probably. But if Russ truly is, and it seems like they're going to keep writing C++, plus plus alongside of Rust is what he mentions later on the post. So it's not like a straight cutoff. Like this is not the winner and they're still in like an interop kind of scenario where they're doing both boundaries.

But just thinking about it, like why not, what would have been the process do you think to not translate but rewrite it? Take feature for feature. How could you not translate it versus just say, here's this, examine this code base. We're not translating it. Here's the test coverage. Here's all the things that's testing for, which can be intent-based,

which is what you hear a lot or what you will hear a lot in this new world working, which is like specs, intent, you know, document-driven. All those are synonymous with, I understand what intent is. I understand what the user experience should be or the DX should be. I understand what I'm trying to get to. Here's where I'm at. My intent is X, which is what he could have done here. What do you think about an intent-driven versus?

I guess ported. Yeah, like this way, where it was translated from C++. Why not inspired by versus translated? That's a really good question. I think that he could answer it better than I could. But what I would surmise is kind of like when we talk about, you know, what's going to change here around the change log? And the answer is like as little as possible.

You know, like I won't be here. But like everything else is going to pretty much try to stay the same. Because you don't want, when you have big change, you don't want to have big radical change necessarily. And I think in this case, when you have a big change being introduced into a code base, which is like here comes a new language, and you're proving that out and you're taking steps in that direction, it's like, let's do as little as we can but still make progress.

And so as little change as possible, you're way more likely to get it replaced when you can give the tools, the existing code and the tests. Yeah. And say, let's not rethink the archivalry. architecture and everything. Let's just, you know, here's our scaffold. Let's pull out this part and let's put in that part and make sure the building still stands. And let's call that a win. And that will help us decide if this is a direction that we want to go. And yeah, we're going to have some C++ looking rust code at the end of the day. But we can slowly swap that out as we as we do rethink and rewrite, you know, subsections. Just like you're going to make little tweaks here and there, you know, to change log news as you go. about making it yours. And so, like, I think that that's probably the reason. Probably he just got done way faster that way, too.

Because, you know, give Claude and Codex as much as they can have, and they're going to crank way faster than having to. I mean, I guess that's an assumption. Maybe they won't. What do you think? Would they do better with existing code than with none? You know, I don't know. I think I would, honestly, because the cost is near zero,

or as close to zero as it's ever been to give it a try. I would say, I would try, honestly, because a fresh new code base, and honestly, it might be something where, and I'm not sure how much experience with Rust Andreas has, but I think as he becomes more confident, the one thing that Russ does for you is it gives you confidence in what you're delivering because of the way it compiles,

because of the way that you get past that compile time, it gives you a lot more confidence in the code you've actually written because you squash so many people, possible bugs in the future with that. I think a future endeavor of his might be to literally rewrite it from scratch with Rust. But I, you know, I think that would only come if they give it a true, this is the only language we're going to use. This is the way forward, et cetera. But that's not what they're doing.

I think that I would, you know, because the cost is near zero, I would try it. It's a long story short there. But, well, friends, I'm here with my good friend, Chris Kelly. over at Augment Code. Chris, I'm a fan. I use Augy on the daily. It's one of my daily drivers. Now I use Cloud Code.

I use Augment Augie. And I also use AMP code and others, but Augy, I keep going back to it. And here's where I'm at. I feel like not enough of our audience knows about Augment code, not enough about Augie, the CLI. It's amazing. I love it.

What can you share? Yeah, we often say, Augment is the best coding assistant you've never heard of. And that's both frustrating as to someone that works there and it's like very proud of the work we've done. But also like inspiring. Like we want to go and sort of punch above our weight. We just like we aren't anthropic and we aren't open AI. And so the quality of the product itself, you know, with our context engine, once you do touch it, people are like just blown away by that. And so like that keeps me going every

day. So not to bear the lead here, but this is a paid spot. You are sponsoring this show to get this awareness. Now at the same time, we're selective and I love to use your tool. But there is in the world. So a lot of developers look at the space and they say, okay, well, how long can this work? How long is this sustainable in the case of Cursor or a Winsurf? Or you pick the name and you think discounted tokens help me shape a lens for our audience? I think it's a lot of awareness, right? Like Cursor got a lot of publicity early on for like fast revenue growth, which well deserved. I think, you know, frankly, some of the media gets the story wrong in that, like, if I gave you a $1.50 for every dollar you sent me, I'd be the fastest growing startup in the valley. And so when you're selling discounted tokens, yes, of course you're going to grow very fast, but all that money plus more goes to the model providers.

So I think the real story is the story of Anthropic and, you know, being an API provider, I think the market has just moved so fast and there's so many pieces of competition out there that it's just hard to get noticed. So friends, I love Augment Code and I love using Augie. And I highly recommend you use it. I love using Augie. I can hand Augie a well-defined specification, a well-defined pep, as I call them in my world, an agent flow. And it executes flawlessly. So the cool thing about Augie that I love most really is that context engine. And I can hand it a task.

And it can just churn away on my well-defined plan and just never bother. me and accomplish the mission. It is so cool leveraging the latest models, the context engine, and all the fun things behind the scenes in that awesome CLI. So yes, go try it out, augmentcode.com. Right in the top there is a CLI icon, a terminal icon. Click that, install it, and change your world. It's going to be awesome.

bentcode.com. If you're thinking about contributing or saying, you know what, I want to try this. I want to port some of this code. Not invited. Okay. Don't get sad. Not invited. It says, we want to be delivered about which parts are getting ported into which order.

So porting is managed by the core team. Please coordinate, essentially. Don't do it and waste your time if it's not something they can't merge. Right. I paraphrasing that last sentence there. But, you know, I think if you're interested in this port or if you're at least tantalized by the effects of Rust and you're seeing it daily in your news. And in this case, I saw it three times. We haven't covered all three yet.

Then I think, go check out the co-base and watch them in action and see what's happening. You'll see, what does it take to go from C++ to Rust and what's happening behind the scenes. And I'm sure on their YouTube, they'll publish more content. But I'd like to see more of this because Rust is the language in that space of the future. Just this. You heard of here first. He's calling it. Just is.

Well, I'm just following a lead, you know. Just in the stream. Yeah, man. Just seeing what happens and just saying it out loud. No, I don't disagree with you. It's overwhelming. It's adoption and its benefits. And I think he did, I mean, I think C++ will be in this codebase for years, if not in perpetuity.

I don't think they're going to like ever completely crush it. And I think he said that even on the show. It's like, yes, this is more like a direction. There'll be parts that we exchange or other parts that might even make more sense. So just leave alone. my answer back to your why not just try you know since the cost is zero the only answer I'd have for that is like if it ain't broke don't fix it like there's other stuff that you can be working on obviously you can get multiple multiple agents going but uh you know the price of agents is not

nothing and it's probably i don't know is it going to go up is it going to go down it feels like so many of these there's a lot of blood and water right now between the agents at large you know right there's this whole like clog code subscription thing with open code. I don't know if you've been tracking that, but the way that... Yeah. So Anthropic, I think,

had an amazing idea with Claude Code subscription, which I loved it. Like, as soon as Jose added... ACP, is that what's called? Agent Client Protocol. As soon as I could use my cloud code subscription inside Tidewave,

I was ready to dive in. Whereas if I had to go out and get a separate source of funding and get an API keys and, like, spend API token. agent client protocol. That was ZED's thing. Yeah, Zedd started it, and I think that Tidewave is using it in order to use ClaudeCode code from inside Tidewave versus a Claude API token.

And it's like, I can piggyback that on top of my already existing monthly fixed limit. As a guy who likes to know what he spent every month, I like that. Like, it just makes it an easy adopter. Same thing with like these new OpenClaw style tools. If we can just plug in our codex or already paying whatever, Open AI. We're already paying Anthropic. Just plug them in. And then it gets rate limited as I have tokens available per month.

It's a fixed cost. I feel good about that. Well, Anthropic does not feel good about that. So they've been changing kind of the rules around your cloud code subscription and saying that you can't use it for third-party tools. You have to use API tokens. And this has a lot of people not too happy. I'm one of them, but I also totally understand it because, I mean, they got to get, they got to make some money. right? They got these huge valuations. They got to have revenue, right?

Yeah. When you look at the landscape, this is at least where my lens is at and this is Google has money to burn and they can operate at zero margin and profit for a long time. Totally. They got a cash cow which is different. Precisely. And so then you have Anthropic, large investment, large capital raised, massive, You see the big number, but the spend is so astronomical. And then you couple that with opening eye, the same, right? The same large investments. Yeah.

And you've got two key players that can't lose, right? That's the game of business. Like, don't lose. It's the object, right? Don't lose and play for as long as you can, right? Play forever. But when you have Google, and they're doing well. I mean, they're doing quite well.

They're very impressive. They're, I mean, just they're actually. surprising me. I didn't think they would, but they are. But when you have this kind of scenario where you've got such massive capital raised and you've got Google Who can essentially operate at no profit for as long as they have to, they can bleed them dry to some degree. So they have to win. They have to profit. So when you look at this landscape, y'all, it's not by surprise that Anthropic and opening are going for ways to make money. And Google's given away, No Book L.M.

giving away nanobanana, giving away things, you know, in a lot of ways. Because they're the ones with the moat to lose. You know, these other folks are essentially new that opening eye is the incumbent when it comes to the first large language model that was largely usable by mass. Right. But Google's catching up. And they have the dollars to fund catching up. And they have the dollars to lose catching up and flatten the market. And so you've got those worlds and you've got to expect this.

Now, is it good business for open code? No, I think our friends over there, you know, that's not cool to do that. I don't know what that means. There's also this news about, which is not in any of our notes, but this news of what is it called distilling the open models distilling from, you know, a mass infiltration into entropic and clod and whatnot, like a massive amount. And the world's kind of applauding this. I'm not sure that I agree with that. I didn't prepare for that. Okay.

It's not on our notes. I can probably do a short version. I think I know what it means, but I'm not totally up to it, which is that, and this is Anthropic, is saying that there are organizations abroad. I'll just leave it that vague that have been basically creating tons of accounts and prompting Claude. and extracting a whole bunch of stuff in order to train their models on the results. And that's what you mean by distilling, I think, like taking the results and turning them into a new model.

And they're mad about it, which I understand why they are. Am I explaining it right? Is this what you're talking about? Yes. Okay, so let's see. I grocked it really fast because honestly Grock is the best for real-time news. Yeah. Let's see if they can actually help me out here.

So I'm going to paraphrase a little bit of it, but the biggest recent story involving Anthropic, this is me reading directly from GROC's response, so forgive me if there's incorrections, or a lack of correctness. The biggest story involving Anthropic, the company behind ClaudeCodeCode AI models, and distillation broke just yesterday,

which was February 23rd. This is February 24th, 2026 as we record. Anthropic publicly accused three major Chinese AI companies, DeepSeek, Moonshot AI, and Minimax, of running large-scale coordinated,

distillation attacks on clod to steal slash improve their own models. There you go. Now, the world will say, our fellow friends out there on Twitter slash X and other places will applaud this. You know, I'm just not, I'm just not sure I want to applaud anything in this tumultuous world where there's massive downness, I would say, in a world we want sort of massive upness, okay? I'm not sure I want to applaud this.

I'm sort of in the middle there because they would say that, well, Anthropic did the same thing to other things to get to where they're at. Right. You know, how did their models get trained in the first place, et cetera, et cetera. And I get that argument. But that genie is out of the bottle and applauded in somebody's downfall, I suppose, because of somebody else's upfall, especially in a coordinated distillation attack. I mean, would you categorize it as an attack?

I suppose so. They are categorizing an attack, I guess. It depends on who you are. They said like there was 12 million. I saw this post from 24,000 fake fraudulent accounts, if this is correct. They were using the slurped down results. Generated over 16 million exchanges, which are conversation slash props with Claude. Yeah.

So like are they, I mean, are they paying? If they're paying, then it's like, I'm sure it's against the terms and they could spend their accounts. I don't know. It's a tough one. I think that obviously the existing players who have trained their models on the world's information, including proprietary content and the work of artists and the work of photographers and just etc. And the work of coders in the case of some of these models trained on publicly available code, but not liberally licensed code, not merely liberally licensed code. and so they're stomping on GPL code, for instance, which we know has happened.

I feel like there's recourse for them in the United States, at least. These are all American companies, in the case of Microsoft, OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google. They all can be adjudicated in the court of law. And, you know, if there's any justice in our court system, which sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't, I think that will play out. like are and there has been results based on scanning books, buying books, etc.

But when it comes to the world stage, I mean, what do you do when it's coming from a different country or different jurisdiction? I don't know. Yeah. So that's a tough one. It's murky. Yeah, it's summarized at the bottom. It says, in short, distillation itself is normal tech.

I mean, if you look at just a short tangent, I believe. The way that Airbnb became so successful initially was because they leveraged off of a non-existent web-based scraping API against Craigslist. They would find things that they could post. I mean, this is in the history books. So that's a version of distillation, right? It's kind of like one person's scrappy startup is like another person's attack, you know? Yeah.

It's like, well, we were just trying to figure it out and we needed data. And so we scraped some data. and who hasn't gone out and just scrape some websites for their own use? I mean, we all have. I mean, how do you? Yeah, I mean, 100%. You got to do it with taste. Obviously, Terms of Service is a real thing.

Yes. And that's what they say here is like doing it at massive scale against the competitors paid API. In violation of TOS, terms of service, especially across borders, this is what Anthropics is calling out as a major problem right now. I understand that, I guess. It's who's got time to read those terms of service, okay? Right. We need the one person. Just have your agent click on it, okay?

That's right. All you need is just spin up an agent, call them, you know, clicker, clicker bot, agree bot, and have it do it for you. Yes. Did you actually, are you at fault then? If you didn't actually click that acceptance, something else clicked it for you? Time will tell. Time will tell. It's a weird world as things get increasingly.

agentic and increasingly like the snake eating its own tail. You know, I think we'll start to see it unravel even more. I don't know. Well, that was not at all in our list of things to talk about today. Well, we side-tail there. That's what happens. Yes. Let's quickly mention two things more about Russ and move on to a couple other topics.

I want to mention Ubuntu is also using Rust. We're not going to go into detail there, but there's a lot of cool things happening there. Okay. I think Rust has a recent survey. that I don't have notes on, but I want to mention. There's a new survey for it. We'll put that in the show notes. And then obviously there is some change in terms of compilers,

registries, tooling for Python, JavaScript, etc. Yes. It's now being written in Rust. And one of the most recent was OXC's JavaScript oxidation compiler, which is a collection of high performance JavaScript tools written in Rust. Let me, okay, let's just put two. two, maybe a phrase together, say two words together. High performance, I guess that is one word if you hyphenated it.

Yes. High performance and written in Rust. Those two phrases will forever, that's the way to describe the next project you do in Rust. If it is a tool for X written in Rust, it's going to be high performance written in Rust. And if you just wrote it recently, then it's modern. So throw modern on there. True. And now, I mean, that dog hunts, you're selling.

You're selling right there. So they wrote it. I mean, they're reusing the same version. that Astral did with UV and others. Like the Rust is high performance. Rust is fast. Rust is memory efficient. And just one thing on C++,

the one issue with C++ is how you have to manage memory in your mind as you're designing and writing the code. And now if you're using AI, then you're not writing much of the code to write it, but you still have to manage the memory manually, whereas Rust does it for you. So that's kind of what makes it high performance. The developer can let go of that concern

because the compiler is just that smart. That was the design of us all along. That was what the, they tried to do writing it, but I wanted to mention that quickly on that front there. You want to touch on you that at all before we high-tailed to somewhere else? Yeah, totally. So first of all, this is not from Astral,

even though it's... It sounds like it should be. It sounds like it should be what, you know who it is from, is from Void Zero, which is Evan Yu's startup, Evan U's startup, Evonu of Vite fame. And so he has his bona fides,

and so this is from people who know what they're doing. OXC.RS. And so it's the foundation of modern Java's for tooling. And so what is it? OX Lint. There's a linter. So again, following a little bit in Astrol's footsteps there, they started with Ruff, which was their linter, I believe. And then there's OXFUMT, as the gophers like to call it, OX format.

But in GoLand, they always like to say fompt. Yeah, fomt, FMT. So there's either OXFumt or oxfumpt, you know, You decide, which is a prettier compatible formatter. And then they have a parser, which of course, I think these other things are probably built on and a transformer and a resolver and a minifier. So it's a bunch of subprojects with free and open source. So this is cool. This is cool.

How in the world do you build such amazing things on free and open source these days? It is a conundrum of this new world. Wow. I'm so happy about it, but it's also very scary. case of void zero and totally makes sense. OXC that they're calling this OXC, yeah OXC built on sponsorships.

They have some silver sponsors on the website, bronze sponsors and the individual backers. And so, you know, they're going straight up sponsorship style and hopefully that works for them. Yeah. OX, look at this domain, Jared. We didn't even mention the domain yet.

Dot R.S. Rust. Rust. Right? That's the extent of a Rust. That's a five-letter domain right there. That's a nice one. OXC.Rust slash sponsor, if you are interested, they have details on why the sponsor who current sponsors are, which seems to be plentiful from individual backers to corporate sponsors. One of a recent sponsor of ours, so kudos to them is Miro. Mero, actually, I should say. They told me to say it, it's hero. I can't see the word. M-I-R-O and not think Miro.

It is same. Mero. But it is actually Mero. M-R-O like hero. Just so you all know. Yeah. So when you think Mero, think Miro like hero, okay? There you go.

Just to be clear, not sponsor, but they have been a sponsor. Right. And so that's just bait into my brain. This message brought to you by our desire to say things correctly. That's right. That's right. Let's go on prem. Let's go self-hosted.

I think, I don't know what you're feeling this, Jerry, but I feel like the The future. This year, this last year, was the crack in the earth to say on-prem is where it's at. I think as we drive more of our own internal tooling, as we start building more of our own SaaS replacements, let's just say. Yeah. You know, you're going to desire to self-host. And now is the best time ever to get into HomeLab if you're not into that at all. And I think the future is going to be self-hosted slash on-prem. And I'm excited about that. I am so excited. about that, as you could probably tell.

Well, I have a little secret I'm happy to reveal, which is that I bought a Mac Mini. I bought a Mac Mini. Wow. Yeah. Was it for our friend OpenClaw? Well, it's, well, to a certain extent. I've just been building more stuff. You know, like, it's just living in a world where you can go from idea to something

working in minutes. It's just hard not to just build kind of everything you think of, but just more things. And, you know, I just build stuff here on my laptop and maybe I own source it. Maybe I don't. You know, it runs here. Fine. I end up building stuff that runs on schedules. And I'm just like, you know, my laptop closes. It's not a server. This is not a work computer, you know, that moves places. And I don't have, all I have, the only other computer I have in my entire house, besides laptops for my wife and kids, is a Raspberry Pi that's in the basement that's not blogging. in. And, you know, I just... Raspberry Pi 3, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And... Still capable. Totally, depending on what you're doing. Well, then I thought, it's just time for some new hardware. And, you know, everyone was buying MacMitties. I kind of got caught up and I told you about my friend that emailed me after, or texted me after the news about OpenClaw.

And he was like, I just bought a Mac Mini. And I'm just like, you know what? I'm just going to, I'm going to buy one. I actually bought the exact. I actually bought the exact. specs that you said you would buy, I think, on the show that when we talked about it. Yeah. The second tier or the top tier?

It's the top tier. Ooh. It's the pro. Yeah. I did not go full RAM because I'm not going to run much local. I don't know. I didn't want to spend. Always go more RAM, dude.

Always go more RAM, especially when it's Bayton. Here's the other problem. I wanted to play with it. And when you go more RAM, it kicks it back like three weeks to ship. Oh, yes. And I'm like, yeah. I mean, if I'm having tons of fun, I don't know. Maybe I'll buy another one or something and give this one.

You can bolt on storage. You can't bolt on RAM. Yeah. And you can bolt on storage at Thunderbolt 5, I believe, in the Mac Mini. I could be wrong. It could be Thunderbolt 4. So you've got that full bandwidth. Anyway, so I'm going on frame at my point.

I'm going on from for whatever it is. I have nothing to run. But I've been having some fun. And I do, I did try out nanoclaw. I haven't set up open claw. but I do want to know this weird world all these people are living in and try it for myself. Zero claw, actually, might be the one I set up first because that's really lost and way less resource heavy. I don't know, but I'm excited to just move some stuff off my laptop over to there and put it on a scheduler.

That got me thinking like, you know, Max's built-in scheduler is launch D, which really doesn't have a good interface, you know. And then just in the shower of their day, I was like, I should just build a GUI for it and be sweet. You know, like I can do that in an afternoon with me and my friends. And then it would be like a cool launch de GUI. Otherwise, you can use Kron, but it's a little bit different on Mac and things get weird, you know. So yeah, I'm, I'm all about it, I guess. We'll see. I'd like to see that launch de GUI.

That's actually, that's cool. That's cool. You want to help me name it? I got stuck on a name. I couldn't think of a good name. That's why I didn't build it. You know, you got to have a good name first, and then you build the thing.

But, uh, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I can nittle on that a little bit. Well, friends, today's podcast is brought to you by our friends over at Squarespace. Now, I use Squarespace personally. I love it. We use it on one of our small businesses.

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Again, squarespace.com slash changelog, get that free trial, use it, enjoy it, and have fun. I did think about Bill O'Reilly. A little request from the audience. If you're a meamer, if you like to meme out there, take Bill O'Reilly when he says, F, it will do it live, and say, F, it will do it on-prem, okay?

Because that's what the world needs. Is on-prem and self-hosted is the way of the future. The cloud's still there, and it's still great. But I think, you know, I just miss, you know, like a lot of folks touching things like Rack and Server. Like, I've got off-camera, you can't see it here. I've got one motherboard there, one motherboard there, a case there

an SSD NVME over there a cooler right there you got some work to do and lack of time man lack of time but I got things I got two motherboards two CPUs a couple things of build and I'm just enjoying that kind of stuff I love building as you already know

but I say we'll miss it as if I miss it but I don't actually miss it because I get to do it frequently I miss it in terms of time but I'm paraphrasing and mentioning this post on Reddit, this fellow, own general 6755, one day ago.

Am I the only one who genuinely prefers on-prem over the cloud? Now, Jared, we use fly. We love fly. That's right. We're friends with render. We're friends with other folks as well. I think there's, I'm not saying those folks are bad by any means. But I think when you're only answer,

I think this is what own general 6755 is alluding to, and I'm not going to say this whole entire phrase, all the details in his Reddit post on our DevOps. But it's this fact that when you go into a new job, you go into a new position, or you go into a new scenario where you're stacking new infrastructure, it's largely APIs and services,

you're kind of piecing together. And as you know, the gooys are dying and CLIs are winning in this new world. And you have to navigate all these settings. We recently just did this with keys. You know, yes. I couldn't see the keys that, I mean, it's, okay, they're called, you know. They're called account keys.

Right. Why can I not see the account keys? You create, Jared. Help us out, Cloudflare. Does that make any sense? What's up with you guys? Cloudflare, that doesn't make any sense, okay? It doesn't make any sense.

That is, I mean, like, the fact that I couldn't see when you could, like, they're both looking at the same screen and we're just like talking past each other. Same credentials even, like the same permissions, the same administrative level permissions made no sense, okay? No sense. And so when you're in that world And you have to like Okay sure you have to have keys in on-prem

You have to have SSH keys and permissions And things like that User accounts and you got Guids, GUI IDs, you got all sorts of things U-UIDs and stuff Sure Sure, you have those issues But that's something you can control on-prem

By just SSHing in And Linuxing The way Linux works You know, when you miss this world When you have to build infrastructure On the cloud only It just you just get to miss it So that's all I'll say

You get to miss that kind of scenario where your only choice to build your next big thing is cloud. I say, no, that's not cool. Self-host it first. In fact, tail-scale funnel, your way to success. What's that? Well, it's like a tunnel, but it's a funnel. Okay. So you could take something, let's say you've got something running locally on a port.

Let's say port 80-80. You can tail-scale serve and tail-scale funnel that thing into essentially punching a hole, which actually doesn't punch a hole through the firewall because it's a mesh network and enable connectivity from the outside in and the inside out, for example. And so you can actually run a service on your Mac media like you've got. Right. Or on your ain't got time to build it yet, but I'm going to assume kind of thing. Okay.

I got other things. Proxmox is over there. Don't too worry. Proxmox is humming along and doing well. My gosh. I've never had more on ProxMox in my entire life. But you can use it there. and build there and just

tail scale your way to success, okay? Look into it. The next episode, actually, next week's episode. Is that tomorrow? Tomorrow's episode? Soon, very soon. Very soon. Check your feed.

If it's in there, go listen to it. If not, it's coming very soon. Is talking about identity in tail scale. What I didn't realize so much so when I did this pod, and this is like teaser for it, is how embedded identity is in tailscales networking. So you larger thing about tailscale is this glorified VPN. And it is that.

Yeah. But think of it like everywhere you go in the network. If you're authenticated, you are you. And you got things like OIDC and things like OIDC connectors. And being able to just already be logged in to TruNAS or already be logged into ProxMox or pick your internal server. that can support OIDC because your tailscale network, your tail net. When you go about it, you are you.

And so you are you as your identity as well, which I think is super, super cool. Anyways, on premise the way. That's all I'll say. Tunnel and funnel. I like it. Tunnel. And it's not a tunnel. And we did mention that net pod.

I was like, you know, I thought it was a misspelling because tunnel makes more sense. But I think Cloudflare D has tunnel while. Tail Scale D has fun. It's actually called Kallel D, but it is Tail Scale. It's effectively like what Engrock was always doing for us back in the day, right? Which is like open up. Yeah?

Exposed this. Now does that require some sort of? A version of it. A version of it. Now, Encroc requires you to port open on your firewall, whereas Tailscill does not. Okay. I did not know that. Yeah, there's no port opening whatsoever with Tailscale. And not an ad, but they are sponsoring us very soon.

And you know I love them. you can go get a free count today. They're free forever. That's there. That's how they are. And so if you're a homelabber or somebody has sent you with 100 or less devices, Jerry, you've got to have one. Basically free forever.

So you can home lab to your heart's content to 100. And they're happy to have you. Happy to have you. All right. So you should use it. Quick side quest here. Yeah. In what calendar year do you suppose you, Adam, Stokovio, are going to hit?

that you're going to have 101 devices on your tail like when are you personally going to hit that we're talking like you're getting close we're talking like a decade never what do you think let me log in real quick devices are proliferating on on our networks you know sometimes before we even know it but it doesn't mean we're necessarily running tail scale on them yeah tell us what you got what are you working with let me tell you uh how many are here 54 oh and that's why to be Because there's no cleanup, okay? You can probably get that down in the other 40s. Yeah.

Let's see. I haven't announced it yet, and I'm not sure when I'll actually open source it, but I'm building a self-hosted GitHub runner because I was just tired of how slow GitHub runners are. And it's called Turk. You run that? Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do.

It's, well, they may change the ball. They may change the plane forward on that front there. Yeah. But for now, you can build a lot. an app and connect to GitHub and build your own. Now, I'm trying to do this. And so the reason why I have so many is because it's in test mode. And it's got a ton.

It uses tailscaled for the networking to connect to things. And so because of that, it's got a lot of test machines that are actually not active. So these are all dead ones part of my test. So truly around 20 devices across my network, but in actuality around 54 per the count right now And a lot of that is just rough from... So what's the calendar year you're thinking? Like, you think you ever hit that at your home office slash home lab? No, I think, honestly, I probably hit it within this next year.

But at that point, it's propping up either an open source project that has a business attached to it or could have a business attached to it. So I think at that scale, if those were truly sustained true devices on the tailnet, that's not a home lab anymore. I mean, I think, I don't know, maybe. Actually, home fraud. Home lab with 100 devices. Somebody out there's calling Fowler, like, Adam, I got 99, man.

I got, I don't know. I guess in the world a home lab, I'm not really sure. Yeah. I'm not sure I will personally ever have 100. Now, if I had new projects I'm building and each one's self-hosted in my home lab and they're self-serving, that's a lot of software, man. I don't know. That's tough.

You want to talk more about this runner? It's just impossible, essentially, to hit that number. you want to talk more about this runner? I mean, I'm intrigued. So this is like basically self-host your GitHub runners. Right? Yeah. So let's see what I can share now.

So there is a, I guess newer to me, probably less newer to others out there, is a new thing called Incas. It's new to me again. That's what I'm saying new. Incas. Incas is, I'm on their website, Linux containers.

org slash Incas. Incas is a next generation system container, application container, and virtual machine manager. Some history behind this, which I'm loosely aware of, is a Canonicals LXD. It was canonical's LXD. And the fellow behind this, his name is Stephanie or Stefan. I'm sorry, not Stephanie, Stefan, short named just a Steph, I believe. And I could be wrong on that front. but I'm trying to get them on the pod in the near future.

But this is the underpinning. So when I looked at Incus, and because it supports like any Linux, ZFS, copy on right, you know, it's going to be really easy to build on top of Incas. And so I'm building Turk right now because I needed to build some, let's just say some stuff on GitHub through runners. And that's super slow. And we've known this because we've been sponsored by Depot and sponsored by namespace or users of namespace. And this is well known that GitHub runners are just slow. They're not purpose-built runner platforms to run faster.

And so the runner part of it is you have GitHub actions. Instead of your project, you obviously have. Dot GitHub or something like that. And you have slash workflows. And inside of those workflows are things will run on GitHub actions. And so when you push your repo, those live. there and they can run on schedules. You can hit them.

They can do your releases. You can tag a release. It'll automate that stuff. And so then that instantiates GitHub Actions, which is essentially a logic platform, and if then else, builds Linux, a bunch of crazy stuff. You can run a runner that just checks

things. It kind of like cron away too. But then it it dumps that off to their own actions runners, which, as I mentioned, they're kind of slow. But you can also do self-hosted runners. Okay.

And so if you just want to build your own simple self-hosted runner, you can do that today. But the problem is that I've found, and the reason why I went this route was because they give you temporary keys, they expire 90 days, they make it painful. They basically make it painful to self-host your own runner. And then you also have to do it per repository. You can't do it like I'm Adam Stack or I'm, you know, slash the change log and put it at the org or user level. You have to do it one by one.

painfulness on the key expiration one by one. And I'm like, well, how did Home Depot, home depot? Where does that come from? Well, Depot. How did Depot do it? So I started looking to this. And it's an app.

You build a GitHub app. Gotcha. And so I'm like, okay. And my goal with Turk, it's called Turk, because our friends back in Amazon, they used to have mechanical Turk, right? I was like, man, the coolest thing for this. Now, I'm going to reveal this now.

If you go there, you're going to see nothing, because this is like literally brand new. Turk. Run. Okay, that's the coolest domain ever. That's cool. Turk.org is what it's going to be. I'm still not sure on the licensing, but I'm thinking about building this

into something that could be commercial. I'm just not sure yet exactly where I'll land. But the licensing battle on open source is a struggle because if I give this too permissive of a license, it's easy for all these existing runner platforms just to use it. So I'm torn there. I could use some guidance and some advising on that front.

But I'm thinking, gosh, man, don't hit me. Don't hate me for saying this, man. What? I'm thinking some version of what do they call that. I'm not even sure what it's called. When you have open code, but not open source. Open core. Oh, business source, perhaps.

Business source. Fair source. Source available. Source available. That infamous phrase we've said a few times. I'm thinking source available. And the call we had with the SDK folk, that was what really gave me a lot of insight into this world of like,

okay, you can be source available, respect the world of open source, but still build a business on top of it. So I'm just not sure yet. I'm just not sure yet. At this point, it's a fun project I'm building internally. Yeah. That has some long legs. And I'm using improd.

It's actually right now building DNS whole. So that was actually the most recent win I had was let me actually dog food this thing. And so DNS hole is a private repo right now on the DNS whole user. So if you go there, getup.com slash DNS hole. There is an org there, but nothing for you to see yet because it's coming soon. And the biggest issue for me was being able to build this thing, not in a VM locally and a couple of the things to kind of get it over this finish line and time and time, really. Sure. And so Turk is what I've built to do that because I was just like, I want to self-host runners because get a bit, get a action.

because runners are just so slow. Went down that rabbit hole, built her. And now I'm actually building DNS hole with turn. I'm just so close to like two cool things. Yeah. Well, that's exciting. I'm sure you'll let all us know when these things go out there, right? I mean, it's ASAP.

Why not? So soon. So soon. I actually thought about an image registry as well, because another project I have has to have a custom Linux image. And this through a curb bought me. It was not expecting to have to build a registry for this thing. But a Turk image registry is the next thing.

I just started to pin the spec on the Turk image registry. We often left, but yeah. Coming soon, Turk.rund, for now, well, just know that I'm building it. And if you are interested in the, if you believe that self-hosted is the future, which is why I feel so strong about building it. Because I'm like, this can solve our friend's problems. This could solve some enterprises problems. And I want to build it right to solve my problems, but also think of it in a way that's reusable by the world. And so I'm trying to make it an internal project, which is kind of easy in this world and just say, okay, it'll be internal.

I won't do anything with it. I really want to build it in a way that's usable by me. I want to prove it works from me, which was DNS whole being built with it. And then being able to take it to the masses. So that's the next step. That's cool. Very cool. Should we move to our next story?

There's more self-hosted. I think we'll gloss over a couple. So DHH, this is not in the list, but he's talked about, you know, moving away from the cloud for a while. Headsters prices are up 30 to 40 percent. I think this is largely predicated on the fact that RAMs, and CPU and storage. Mostly RAM is just astronomical. Jared, I think I told you this recently.

I bought four sticks of RAM for like 200 bucks recently. Four. Two of those sticks is a thousand. The four and dim problem. Back to that, yeah. So you spent $2,000 on them? I didn't spend $2,000. No.

No, I spent $200 bucks on four. Okay. Those four now are worth $2,000 on the market. Good time. my gosh, like, I think the last day the prices were low, I think, is like, I was surprised I just bought RAM. This can't be true. Throw those on Craigslist, man.

That's a good, that's a good markup right there. Well, I got, I got self-hosting to do, bro. I can't do that. Those things are too viable to me. Now I'm like, oh, M.G, I'm so glad I bought them what I did. Yeah. Yeah, I think Nanoclaw was the other one I wanted to put a list to was. Gotcha.

Nanoclaw moved from Apple containers, which I'm not that familiar with. Yeah. But I'm about to be because of Turk. Okay. And then because part of Turk is going to be built on Mac as well, not just Linux. Interesting. But actually to automate Apple containers, which is cool. So I did download Nanoclaw and I used it.

I think maybe I told you that. We were talking about Apple containers. You and I, weren't we? Yeah, recently. Yeah. And so that introduced me to Apple containers, which is Apple's first-party project. It doesn't ship with Mac OS. You think it would just be in there.

But it's not. It doesn't? No. It's like a container project on getting. and you go out and click releases and download a DMG. It's very manual and weird. Maybe it's just an experiment and they're not going to want to support it long term. I don't know.

You never know what Apple's up to. But it's basically, you know, like Docker for Mac without Docker. It's like an Apple version of what Docker does for Linux for Mac. It has very similar even command line UI and stuff. And, you know, it's fine. And I used it because Nanoclaw was built on top of it. Because the author of Nanoclaw wanted to do that. And I wanted to try something out real quickly on my laptop.

It was cool. I got Nanoclaw up and running. The problem with it was he only supports WhatsApp. Oh. And he also doesn't take pull requests. It's kind of an interesting project. Like the way he runs it, I thought it was fascinating at first. but then I thought, it seems actually impractical,

which is that you do not add features to nanoclaw. You add skills, and you have your agents build features on your personal clone slash fork of nanoclaw. And so it's basically like if you want the feature, you can add a skill that will teach all of these things to use it, but he's not going to accept any PRs that says, you know, let's support Discord, let's support whatever, Slack. And I thought that's an interesting model.

And then I thought it would be very fragmented and very difficult to actually stay up to date with nanoclaw. If you have tons of modifications, like everybody has tons of custom features that are never going to be merged upstream. So I don't know. Seems kind of impractical. This is the same way that OpenClaught went too. This is Peter Steinberg. He said this on the 21st on X. He said, if you were a service, I think it's also because he's getting inundated with like.

A lot of inbound, right? Yeah. Side note, Peter, if you're listening to this podcast, respond to my DMs, man. Okay. Now, we were actually, it's funny because just before, like, the, the uptick and the major craze,

like there was a lot of inertia around Claudebot at the time, now OpenClawn, all the names it has been. There was names even before Claudebot. We were talking and trying to coordinate timing. And then he got hit with that DMCA from Anthropic, which I think was just a little side tangent. What a bonehead move, right? How do you not see that this was an opportunity?

And then you slapped the guy with a rename and a DMCA. Yeah. You know, like that was just like, how did you miss the cross of the trees, you know? You know, like you basically bringing a bunch of attention to a thing that otherwise had not that much anyways. Yeah, absolutely. And not only was it a cool project, but somebody who had a following. Yeah. Like, you don't do that.

That's just not very smart. The fastest growing repository in GitHub history. Yes, that's well-deserved too. Buddy, buddy with, you know, Sam. He's a genius. He's a genius. And now your competitor, Open AI, employs him. That's right.

So I feel like Anthropic did drop that ball. Oh, gosh, man. They botched that one hardcore. That's such a sad moment. But what he says here, and this alludes to what you're seeing about nanobot. He says, if you are a service, make a skill or plug-in. There you're not going to add random features or skills to core for visibility.

Yeah. So I think this is the same stance, but I think the nanoclaw guy is like way more hardcore on it. Like his is way smaller already. Right. He's still not going to add anything. So it kind of makes it where it's like I'm going to go use either the real thing or something that's closer to it.

And so I'm planning on not continuing with nanoclaw. I don't use WhatsApp, you know? It's just not my ball of tricks. So his name is Gabrielle Cohen to my knowledge. We've got a DM out to Gabrielle as well. Nanobot creator. So Gabriel, come on the pod and share your thoughts on nanocod if you have them. Nanoclaw.

Nanocod. Sorry. Change that name. Nanoclaw. To be super clear, nanoclaw. dot dev. In one sense, it's like good for maintainers, you know, open source maintainers, because they're just like, you know what? on, you know, it's kind of the old

Ben Johnson. He was the instigator of all this stuff, I think. Open not up the contributions. Trailblazer, wasn't he? He was, man. It's kind of that. It's like, yeah, we're not taking PRs, but you can build a skill,

and you can just fork it and have your agents build whatever you want to. And I get it. I think that's an approach. I think you have a hard time fostering a community around that, but maybe I'm wrong. I know the open claw has not had a hard time foster, you know, massive community. Did I say the right one?

Yeah, I did. And they have, I think, two orders of magnitude more source code than nanoclaw. It's like 400,000 versus 4,000 lines. I don't know. So different approaches, different results. Yeah, different approach and results. I think that, you know, as a maintainer of an open source project, in the world of agents,

you are being in a data with pull requests. Yeah. You know, a side note, even on pull requests, and what's your stance on code review and poor requests,

Jared? I know you've traditionally just not been a fan necessarily, but like, do you think it's a dead thing? Do you think code review is dead in the sense of the world? We've known it.

Do you think pull requests are a version of dead? Well, I think the old phrase of future is here. just not evenly distributed is so true right now in so many different ways. And I think code review is going to continue to live in different places for a very long time. Even our good friend of Mel was like death on no code review. We started talking about just like basically vibe coding and, you know, merging, vibe merging stuff.

I mean, in her domain, that was like anathema, basically. I think that would be the case in a lot of places, especially high stakes software for a long time. time, but I do think the way the wind is blowing. And I did give her, I think, my own experience of change. And I've had a similar experience with self-driving cars where it's like at first you're like super nervous and you're criticizing everything they do. And then like a couple of weeks later, you're just like, yeah, I watch it, but it makes the right decisions like most of time. And then a few months later, you're like, why do I have to even be watching the road? Because this thing is darn near or flawless.

And I do watch the road. But it's so good that I'm just like, I'm not checking on as often as I would. Now there are moments when you do, of course, in like high stakes traffic, you know, or dangerous scenarios. Yeah. Weird one-offs where you're like,

yeah, here comes an emergency truck and et cetera. Now I'm starting to pay more attention. But I think that is the trend line for code review. from agentic coders, unless the advancements in their ability to write software stops right where it is. Like if it stops right here, code readers is going to exist forever. But if it continues to advance,

I think even as a longtime software engineer, you just stop watching as closely. And you're thinking at a higher level. And I think eventually if it continues to advance, we all do that. And in that sense, code review dies. That's my kind of dual-sided take.

Maybe a cop-out, because I answered both ways. But that's what I'm thinking. Yeah. I think it's going to evolve. I think it's going to be code review in the sense, like you push APR,

someone, something reviews it there is going to become an evolution. I think we'll care more. about code quality than code review, which is really the purpose of code review. Yeah. Is what changes? What's the implications of this change?

Is it massive? And so in the sense of human review, massive change, massive PRs have been largely frowned upon, whereas smaller change are easier. That's where you get the, you know, LGTMs on a massive PR versus a small one, which gets scrutinized to the degree, right? Right. Because it's so much easier to reason about, right? Yeah. And so I think you have this idea of reasoning. about the code change and you care about that.

I think we'll always care about some version of code quality, but that's going to change. It's going to be about who. It's the same thing with shift left. It's like, sure, shift left, but now it's just like more on the developer. How much further left can we actually go with the shift left? Same idea there.

I think you'll have more to reason about to think about, and you'll always care about some version of code quality, but the purpose of caring about code quality is the intent met, Does it pass tests? Does it actually work in, you know, in development environments? Does it pass the smoke test where we spin it up 50 times and battle test it? And that's the point of like where you can do Turk type things where you can just spin up a ton of runners because they're more free in a self-hosted world. So like you wouldn't spin up 50 runners on GitHub to test because like one, potentially super expensive. Two, my gosh, super slow. Okay. But in the world of Turk where you can like self-host and infinitely test on. You know, easily clonable VMs or containers, like that's a world you live in. So you can ensure code quality at a much higher degree. And I think AI will continue to evolve this and will care about what has been code review,

I think will translate into some version of code quality. And I'm actually wondering if the next big thing on this front isn't some version of a code quality gateway. You see this happening in AI where you have AI gateways, where you want to gateway the AI. in networking, right? You have a network gateway or something like that where you can log into something. So like open a router is a good example that you're talking about, right? Exactly.

Something that lets you access more of the network, you know, is a gateway. I think I have more of that in the code quality. And what has traditionally been code review is going to be more in the real time. I want to know just in time. Not before I push and hope and pray, but, you know, I just built this feature. Does this meet my intent? How does it work with others? Like, I want to see it on my machine, not push to, you know, some place in hope and pray.

I think things will change on that front there. I'm not sure exactly how, but I'm thinking code quality over code review. That's where I'm leaning. Two more things on our list. They're both kind of deep. And I'm not sure how deep you went with them because I shared this list with you moments before the show. I was just kind of ride your coattails, which is, you know, dangerous. But I do like a little bit dangerous.

It could be dangerous. Okay, so I'm going to loosely mention Boris Tane. So Boris Tain is going to come on the pod soon. The invite has been accepted. The plan has not been made. So there's not a date on the calendar yet. But one thing he said recently was the software development lifecycle is dead. You often hear the term. Jared, if you haven't, this is new to me.

I don't learn it recently. SDLC. I'm like, what is SDLC? Oh, software development lifecycle. So only if you sell SDLC type products, do you know SDLC acronyms, right? Right. Because you don't want to keep saying software, development, life cycle. It's a lot.

Right? It's a lot. Yeah. So I get it. I get the acronym. But for a while, I was like, okay, what does SDLC mean again? Okay, kind of makes sense. But he proposes, I should say he purports that the SDLC, as you've learned it, is a relic.

He shares, let's see, we could throw some video. on this, but he shares a classic software development like cycle where we're taught requirements, system design, implementation, testing, code review, hello, deployment, monitoring, and recycle battery requirements again. Like, this has been a known loop. And he goes on to suggest how the, every stage is collapsing, how AI is really collapsing a lot of this. And it's not because AI is eating it.

It's because more of what happened in the SDLC is happening. more once and in real time versus in different, disparate places. And I think that's why I really care about just in-time code review as well. And it's not really code view. It's just more like, dude, is my code okay? You know? Like, I want it.

I actually want stuff or call that, dude is my code okay. Dot com. And then that would be kind of cool. I want that, right? Because I don't really want code review, but it kind of goes on through this. And I think that kind of leans into the fact that we just talked about

code review and code quality. Yeah. That's going to be the thing. It's going to be more this is getting compressed, more this is getting replaced and compartmentalized in a way that it's just like, it's just collapsing. A lot of this is collapsing. And I kind of mourn in a way, the old way, but I don't, but I do. Like I really, I was watching how it's made recently, Jared. And there was this fella.

And he was making, let's see, like you can make tortillas and stuff like that and you steam them and you want them in this thing. you want them to be steamed. Or maybe it's rice. It's this basket. And so he takes these four bamboo trees and you watch him go from four bamboo trees to many baskets. But it was not, it was not like minutes. It was hours, potentially even days of labor to go from multiple bamboo trees down to, you know, baskets. Right.

And I think that's like serious craftsmanship to handmake those things. And that's what we did in the old days, which was like basically last week in software. Yeah. You know, is we used to make software by hand. We used to hand craft. Some of us are still doing it. Some of us are still doing it. But I think that world was so changing.

And then, you know, what Boris Tain is suggesting here is collapsing and changing is part of that. And so like he has said before, the future is here just not evenly distributed. I think maybe that's the case for most folks. Maybe the SDLC is not dead for everyone. Maybe it's just dying or changing or evolving. The word dead is just thrown around so easily, right? Well, it's sensational, right? Sure.

I mean, you got my attention, right? Yeah, you want to get attention. You don't say things are changing. You say, like, this is dead. That's right. And that's how you get attention. So, yeah, I mean, I've always looked at the SDLC with disdain myself, you know? Probably because I was forced to learn it in college,

and anything you're forced to learn in school is lame, right? De facto lame. So S-DLC was not new to you. This is a term you've known for years. Like, he did you see it to you in the textbooks, you know? See? And then you come out of school and you're like, I'm not doing that.

That looks rigorous. You know, Gerhard would do it. He would love it. He loves rigor. The rest of us in this room, not quite as much. It's hard to love rigor as much as Gerhard. The guy loves it. So I always didn't like the SDLC.

Of course, it gets kind of associated with waterfall. But I mean, there are all these steps. And I always have felt like it was like the way that it was described to me and the way he's showing it as this like step by step process. You're assuming each of these is like a massive undertaking. I always felt like it should be smaller, tighter and loopier. And he's basically saying it is getting that way. So in a sense, I think it was always should be. less

serialized and things happen at the same time and less people doing more things together at the same time and now we're just taking the people out

you know that's the big difference now is like it's you and an agent and you're not waiting on design review or whatever it is you're not waiting

on DevOps team which as our yeah As our friend Ellie Hustle pointed out, as soon as you have a DevOps team, it's not like DevOps has failed, basically, because the whole point was to, you know, integrate the dev with the ops and have them all be together. So anyways. Right. Mm-hmm. Waiting on some other org, waiting on some other person, you know, waiting for your code to compile, like the old comic or outside in the hallway, a sword fighting.

Sword fighting, yeah. Waiting for progressive. My code's compiling. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Carry on. I understand where your horse around.

totally makes sense. You could do nothing else. Right. Like, why are you guys not working? It's like, well, we're waiting for system design. You know, we shouldn't be waiting for these things. And I certainly think that it's been collapsed for a while and it's just getting tighter and tighter. Well, friends, this episode is brought to you by my good friends over at Notion. We use Notion here at ChangeLog. I love it. It is so helpful. It keeps me on track. Notion agents, Notion A.I., notion all the things. Here's the thing. You probably spent weeks building out your team's knowledge base. You probably wrote the onboarding docs by hand,

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That's all overcase letters, notion.com slash changelog to try custom agents today right now. And when you use our link, you know you're supporting the show. And we love that. So, notion.com slash change log. Who was it that taught us about cues? His name is missing on my brain in this very moment. Dear friend, he loves process. What else was he talking about?

Been on the pod before. Gosh, man. Oh, anytime you're queuing, like, you're not efficient kind of a thing. Yeah. Yes. I want to say Barth Hubert, but it was not Barthoubert. Because it's in that same. name wheelhouse.

Lucas de Costa, I think, wasn't it? Yes, Lucas de Costa, I could call. Yeah, yeah,

Lucas. He would talk to, I mean, that was really where I was, I mean, I knew this. So it's funny whenever you know something,

but you don't know it until somebody gives it a name. Yeah. And defines it for you. Like, you know what? I've experienced that problem 17,000 times. Okay.

Now I know it. I feel like I learned it there, but I experienced it for a long time. But just this cue process, like the, when you have a queue and a backed up cue, that's an inefficient system. that's obviously not a good thing, right?

If you can solve the queuing problem, then you solve a lot of the bottleneck. And, you know, one thing that Boris suggests here is that, you know, going back to Coderview in a way, or I guess directly, not in a way completely, he says, you're going to like this, man. Give me one moment. Where is it at? Sure. Code review. Give it up. Okay.

Think about it. An AI agent generates 50, sorry, out of zero. 500 PRs a day. Your team can review maybe 10. Review Q backs up. This isn't a bottleneck worth optimizing. It's a fake bottleneck, one that only exists because we're forcing a human ritual onto a machine workflow. And I believe that's true.

Like, in the SDLC, as you've learned it, and as we've all experienced it over our years, what is the point of the SDLC to ship software? Yeah. Right? And we've ritualized and held secret these steps along the way because we've had to. And that's been our comfortability. So as humans, we have this comfortability gate. Well, we do this because that's what gives me confidence and comfortability to go to the next step.

But if that's not required anymore or in these scenarios, if you're still doing it by hand, then obviously this. as DLC as it has been is the way. But if you're moving to this new AI agentic world, it's just not. It's just not. We'll link it up in the show notes, but Boris Tien goes into a lot of detail there. Worth checking out.

A couple of good comments I could pull out briefly before we switch context here. The 17 comments and they're pretty high quality. Oh, yeah. Definitely dig into those as well. I didn't go to the comments. I don't read the comments, man. Comment section sometimes is the best thought. I meant that in the, I do.

read the comments, but you're generally like, hey, don't read the comment. So one Kevinson says a really high quality article, blah, blah, blah. I generally agree everything you've described here, but now I'm wondering what's left of the software engineer job. So as everything gets collapsed down, it's a really good question. Of course, I think that's what on a lot of our minds. And Boris's response, I thought was pretty good. He says everything that isn't typing code, typing on a keyboard was never the hard part.

The job shifts from person who writes code to person who knows what to build then why taste judgment knowing when the agent is confidently wrong yeah and i think you there we've been saying that kind of stuff but i think it's just i think at some point yeah it's it seems i mean even scott hansman comes to mind in this scenario here like when he says person who writes code and in particular typing on a keyboard well then he told us in that show we did probably eight years ago i want to say jared wow was he said he had so many keystrokes left in his life and that's that stood out to me really as a very wise thing to think about And he judges, I think he had even a program that.

There's a website you can go to. Yeah. I knew he like quantified in a way. He was so important enough to not just state on a podcast, but to actually put something behind it to quantify it for himself. I think about that. Like, you know, I would love to, while I'm a craftsman at heart or a craftsperson at heart, I want to be able to make the best thing.

I have taste. I have judgment. I think, I think, Jared, I like to. to know when the agent is confidently wrong. Yeah. You know, that's questionable these days. I'm like, what did you say? Right. What did you say to me? That really is the hard one, right? Because you need to know more than it knows. And you don't. Yeah. And a lot of times you're like, well, I'm up. I'm in over my head. And a lot of the tooling that I've been building is all pretty simple. Now, I'm building that Mac OS deal where it's like, I don't know, a lick of Swift. I don't know the UI kit, Apple, you know,

it's on SDK APIs. And so I'm just like, I'm swimming in deep waters when it comes to like being like, nah, that's not the right way to do this because I literally have no clue what's the right way to do it. Now when I write node-based tools and Go-based tools and I'm looking at some JavaScript and it's kind of streaming by while Claude's doing his thing, I can be like, yeah, this is looking pretty gnarly. I bet we could rewrite this and I'll talk to it.

But how do you know when you don't know? that's kind of scary. You know, that is scary, but then I think it's going to get so good that even when you don't know, at some point it catches up to fix itself. At least that's what I want to tell myself. That's the hope is it gets better from here. I mean, it's gotten way better in the last 12 to 18 months. Tell me if this is your flow with Swift in the next code.

Are you just command Ring and getting the next build or are you actually doing some stuff in next less than that. I'm not even running in X code. In fact, when I first started, Claude told me to go ahead and launch S code and here's how you compile and run, which is like, yeah, commandar, hit the B2ndaumannan button. And I said, I don't want to run Xcode if I don't have to. Do I have to run X code? Can't you just write some sort of a build script that does it for me? And then it was like, yes, you're absolutely right. I can write a build script. And so I had to install X code, but I never have to launch Xcode. And so I just tell it to I just tell it to rebuild for me.

And if I want to run the script by myself, I can. Heck yeah. So all I do is double click on the app bundle. And then I close it. I double click on the next one after it's rebuilt it for me. Yeah. That's the same version of a CommandR, but not really. I guess Commander will just get you a Commander versus a close and open, close open.

It's the same repetitive task. You're still an API in some way. Yeah. But I guess in my case, I have more RAM consumed because X could probably requires more RAN. to be open just so I can command R. Hog, man. That thing links RAM. Well, the only experience I've had recently with Swift was actually with my

remarkable is I started to build a file browser essentially for it. Because like this thing is kind of slow, if I'm being honest. It's Linux and it's not the best CPU, but it's good for what it's intended to be. But navigating it, it's a touch interface. It's kind of latent a little bit. and so the API I wrote against it, a Go API against it, is super fast, super fast.

And then I built an app UI, it's a lot like Finder to navigate it, rename it, reorganize. But I've learned that it can't be a real-time system. I have to like create a version of the truth over here in the Mac app that I then synchronize back to the remarkable. And then the remarkable has to do a refresh because of the way the Linux itself,

or at least the UI, like persists new, new rights to the database and new rights to the, to the disc. Well, that's got to do a little, do a little restart there. But in the weeds a little bit on, on CommandR and Ice Code and Swift at development. I say, you know what, listen, if you're, if you're out there and you're like, man, I got an idea for this or that. Go and try it. Explore new world. Tentil, you know, touch all the things if you can, you know.

You're in a candy store. It's all for you. Eat it, enjoy it. Don't get fat. Just enjoy the candy. Yeah. Here is a quote from Wes McKinney, who wrote a,

he's a software, I think he might have vibe code that. Who knows? Called Message Vault that I've been playing with. In his post, The Mythical Agent Month, which was the title of the last change log news,

he says the coding is easier now and honestly more fun, and I can spend my time thinking about what to build rather than wrestling with the tools and systems around the engineering process. I found that to be absolutely the case with me, just to give my amen to what you just said and to back it up. It's just fun to work at this level and just touch all the things,

try all the things, you know, build something, see if it sticks. If not, throw it out and build something else. Touch all the things that you should touch, okay? Respect terms of service. Yes. If that's your life, if not live dangerously. Right. Consent, you know, you need consent for sure.

Yeah, you do need consent in the word of touch for sure. Let's not, don't clip, just touch all the things. Only clip it in context. Clip the disclaimer. Clip it in context. One thing we didn't mention, and I'm just going to mention it here on the out, that you should check out. And then I want you to also check out a niche.

I'm not sure I say his last name. Acharya, maybe. He is from A16 Z and Dresen Horwitz. And there was a, you may have seen this, Jared, and tell me if you did, but there was a post that circulated called the 2028 global intelligence crisis. Does this ring a bell to you at all? No. Tell me about it. Well, it is a thought exercise in financial history from the future.

And so it actually writes itself the very first, the dated line is February 22nd, 2026. That's scratched out. And it's June 30th, 2028. Okay. It's largely, you know, bearish, not bullish and negative. But it's, they say it's grounded on some research. And it's essentially the consequences of abundant intelligence. And it paints this picture of just a downside that's coming.

when it comes to what automation does. And I'm just not sure. I'm just not sure. Yeah. It's all I'm going to say because it really is that deep. It's a whole podcast worthy thing. But one thing that a niche shared was a different way that this could go down. I'm only got both because I don't want anybody out there reading this thing

and getting all negative and sad and going into a hole when we say, go touch all the things. And then touch only things turns into all this nasty stuff. that this seemingly well-researched article from the future purports. So I would read Anisha's prose on X, which we'll link to in tandem with this and try your best to come out not crying like a little baby. Because it is pretty, it's pretty, it's pretty wild. I'll read the first line. Okay.

The unemployment rate printed 10.2% this morning, a 0.3% upside surprise. the market sold off 2% of the number on the number, bringing the cumulative downdraw in the S&P to 38% from its October 2026 highs. It just goes, it's one of those kind of like doom and gloom, but they even say in the preface that they're not trying to be doom and gloom, but it is a doom and gloom kind of post. They say what follows is a scenario, not a prediction. And it's based at some degree from I understand on research.

So we'll see. We'll see. But don't go and read that. Get sad. Go read that and then go read Initius Post on X and just see a different side. There's always two different sides.

Don't go read it like I did and get super sad for a dare to crawl into a hole. And I did. I was pretty bummed out for like 45 minutes. I was existential for a minute. I was like, gosh, babe. I'm having so much fun.

Right. Tell my wife this. Gosh, babe. That's usually how I sigh in life is I'm usually telling my wife some sort of story from the from the battlefield, so to speak. Gosh, babe, this high or this low or this, you know, this possible future. And I was like, she's like, what's wrong? I'm like, some big consequences out there coming. I was like, I don't really know how to take this.

So I was a little down for a little bit. But then I read Anish's post. I was like, all right. I'm right back up again. Let's see the bright side here. So we'll say you go. We don't know. We don't know.

That's why it's interesting. We see. And read both. Yeah, read both. Read both. Well, friend, it has been the absolute pleasure of a big part of my life to spend time with you on the weekly, on the daily. Yeah. In the trenches of this war room called software development, SDLC, as you may say.

Oh, yeah. Living the life cycle. You know, live in the life cycle, so to speak. you know, um, yeah, I guess, yeah.

Yeah, what did, what did Lloyd Christmas say? Goodbyes are hard, man. What nobody said to, to, to, uh,

to, Holly hunters. To the person he just met a few minutes prior. I hate saying goodbyes. Yes. Something like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Goodbyes are hard. And we can always add up for now on there. It lessens the blow. Not for good, but for now. And, yeah, it's been a blast. Appreciate the many years of potting together and doing life together, you know, from afar. From afar.

And we met on the internet and we've, you know, built a life for each of our families for a long time. And I'm excited to see where the change log goes from here. You know, you were changelogging before I got here and you're the change logging after I leave. and I'm excited for what's next for me. I have zero plans for those who are interested in my future. I don't have one. I'm happy about that. So I've not locked into anything.

I don't have ideas. I am going to take a break. I definitely need to step away. I've been going full bore for a while now. And excited for what's next open to ideas. Don't have any of my own. I have a few things I like to build. But who knows?

I've had thoughts of going to take it. joby job, you know, going working for somebody else. It's been since 2011 was the last time I had a real job. So I'm not sure if I could ever actually do that. My wife thinks probably I can't. Like I'm just at this point, unemployable. Could be true. I don't know, but happy to see where life takes me next. So it's been a blast. I think the only thing left to say is by friends, right? We always finished with by friends. well I was going to leave a little surprise for our plus plus folks I feel like you owe them a little a little bonus so if you're in that crowd oh good I just get a little more I'm not sure what's

there I'm not sure I don't have a plan either just an extended take potentially or extended yes maybe a couple more details that are for our pertinent really close folks we really appreciate who have supported us over the years sounds good plus plus content is always good so if you're on that if you're on that that dial then stay tuned and if not But changelog.com slash plus plus is how you become that person. With that, friends, by friends. My friends. Well, friends, it is a finale, but it's not over.

That means this show continues. Yeah, nothing changes really. Jared's stepping away. He's retiring all the things. And we'll miss him. But the show must go on. The change log remains changelaw.com is here to stay. And if you haven't yet, join us in Zulip chat.

change law.com slash community. It's free to join. Everyone is welcome. And I mentioned the bonus. If you want the bonus, you got to be a plus plus subscriber. Changelaw.com slash plus plus. It's better. You know what?

It's better because bonus content rolls, getting closer to the metal rolls. And of course, you roll. Changelaw.com slash plus plus. That's it. The show's done. We'll see you real soon. All right. I don't have a plan.

I figured a little bonus for the plus plus folks would be cool. Let's do it. I have no idea what to say there except, I would say the treadmill of creating content is probably pertinent, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's easy to look at, it's easy to look at this and maybe even in the comment section in Zulup, which I'm very happy that people are sad, I suppose. I don't know. I would say that. I'm very happy that there's a feedback loop, I would say, right?

Like it's one thing to put something out in the world on this media treadmill for so long. And I think where we get most of our feedback loop has largely been in Slack, in Zulup, and at conferences. Yeah. Sure, there's DMs. There's people coming on the show. There's people who say, I've listened to your show for years. And maybe that's the polite thing to say. Maybe it's just something you say.

But then somebody who actually gives you that hug or that handshake in person or someone who says, man, I'm really just thankful because you got me through some hard times when I navigated my career in software. And you were just entertainment in my ears. I think there's just something to be said about the media treadmill and the absolute chore it is to show up weekly for so long. Yeah. And not be biased or negative, which I think we've both been a little cynical and negative. In this age, it's hard not to be when you've been through so much, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I used to describe it internally. And you can edit this part out if you think it's too negative. It's what I say, we've created this. We've created our little jail sale. And now we've got to spruce it up and make it a nice place and live in it, you know? Yeah, we created our jail. You know, me and my, in my most cynical.

Just kind of, and we, but we made it in a nice place. You know, it's a very nice one. That's just how it feels over time because of just the constant repetition of like a new week, a new set of shows. You know, you know it as well as I do, if not better. That it's just nonstop. And sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. And then over the course of years, you get good at it. I mean, I feel like we've been pretty good at it to where I don't think about it all that often.

and you do, to an assertion, especially with podcasts, feel like you're just putting something out into a void and hoping that people like it. And I would say that, especially in the last couple of years, we've had some, I think we've made some real connections with some friends. A lot of our change log plus people are those friends. So thank you all.