The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - Just on the rocks (Friends)

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

Jerod tells Adam about how bad he hates the taste of Gin, sips on some Generative A Rye (on the rocks), they open the comments section for a bit, and then land the plane talking about being alone, naked, and afraid.

Welcome to changelog and friends, your weekly talk show about generative ari. A big thank you to our friends and our partners over at Fly.io. That is the home of ChangeLaw.com and the home of many robots. Learn more at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk. Well, friends, Retool Agents is here. Yes, Retool has launched Retool Agents is here. Yes, Retool has launched Retool Agents. We all know LLMs, they're smart.

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It's me and it's Adam. Hey Adam. What's up man? Long time, no see. Oh, I know. I've had a little bit of separation, as they say. Keep them separated. Do you have separation, anxiety?

Do you have any anxiety about that? I've been missing you. I've been a little anxious, you know? A little anxious. Okay. You know? This should be good, just the two of us. Oh, you know.

Chatting, talking, frenzing. Yeah. Well, let's start at the start because that's always the best place to start. Sure. And the start for today is gonna be me fulfilling my obligation to my new friend, Kendall Miller, who fulfilled his obligation to me.

And you, I believe, but. Yeah, I'm in a different situation now. But you are on a dry campus right now. I am. Which was, you know, Kendall Miller, the purveyor of Friday Deployment Spirits. And I said, hey man, send me some of them spirits. And he said, I will, if you test them out,

to TDD them on the show. He sent me some whiskey. He sent me some gin. He sent me some gin and full disclosure, the whiskey has been opened. So this will not be a first time taste test. I've already tried this one. You've been sippin' on it. Look at that.

Here's the Friday Deployment Whiskey. This is the Generative A Rye, which is a fun punny name. Generative A Rye. which is a fun punny name. Generative A Rye. I got bottle number 219. So early. I don't have a bottle near me. I can't judge my number.

It's probably 220 is my guess. Oof. One after me. Maybe. And then he also sent me the Force Push gin. Okay. Now I told him on the show and I'll tell you this and so our listeners know I don't like gin. Oh But it tastes like a pine tree. Okay And he said, you know what? That's a really good

Pine tree taste why don't you to me it's been I mean, it's probably been I don't know Was I even legal age? I had to be, I had to be legal age. Uh, probably like in my 20s. Okay, so it's been a bit bad. Because I had gin in my 20s, like at a bar and I'm like, oh, gross. And so he said, maybe your taste buds will have changed.

And I said, all right, I'll try it out. But you don't just drink gin by itself, do you? I mean, isn't gin usually with something? Tonic. Tonic. My drink is a gin and tonic if I drink gin. Okay, I didn't have any tonic, but I do have this, which I think you're a fan of this, aren't you?

Topo Chico. Now that's kind of tonic, right? I mean, it's. It's tonic-esque, yeah. It's seltzer water. You got some lime up in there, which is good. Twist of lime, carbonated mineral water. Now this, we can drink this together, can't we? We can drink that together, yes sir. It's seltzer water. You got some lime up in there, which is good. Twist of lime, Yeah. carbonated mineral water.

Now this, we can drink this together, can't we? We can drink that together. Topo Chico. Actually, I never knew of Topo Chico until you. You introduced me to this. I introduced you to a lot of stuff, Jared, you know? You really do. I am your accessor of life.

Well, that's, I might have just stepped too far there, bro. Okay, I'll roll with it. It's a black assessor of life. OK. Yeah. Well, now that you're here, I'm living. And so I thought I'd try the gin with some topo chico and. This is the first time taste test right now.

Absolutely. I'd never have had this in my life. OK. I can't even get the bottle open. How do you get these off? Is it a cork? No, I think it's just a twist. It's a cork. And a twister. I might have just broken them.

Okay. Uh oh. And I do have some ice water here. Bear with us people. This is a obligation. How's the smell? That actually smells kind of good. I wonder if I'm going to like this and he's

going to be right. I'm going to have to eat crow. How much gin do I put in in order to match? I'd go, you know, one to two ratio, one to three ratio. So put like an ounce. That's about an hour. Now a little bit more.

Yeah, that's good. Oh man. Please don't spill on my computer. Oh gosh. And to what she go. Yeah, keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. Stop. That's fizzy.

I like that. Give a little stir, a finger stir even. A double finger stir. Put my fingers in there? Sure, they're your fingers. Well, yeah, I know about it more than you do. I don't put them anywhere. There's only certain places those things go.

I want to use the back. I'm going to use the back end of this pen. Oh, gosh, you have more trust with that pen than your fingers. Well, this pen is like just sitting in a pen box. It's not been fingers. Well, this pen is like just sitting in a pen box that's not been used. Oh. There's definitely some collectedness on that pen. Like the sound of that? That's fizzy water.

All right, so it's probably been two decades since I've had this. Okay. But this is for you, Kendall. I appreciate you. Cheers, Kendall. I hope this doesn't disgust me. Yeah, that's trash right there.

That's pine trash. I'm not gonna lie. Give honest reviews around here. Now, I'm sure. I'm sure if I liked gin, I might like this. I think this is just pure unadulterated. Oh my gosh. I had to lean back in that one, man. Oh gosh.

That's disgusting. Okay. Okay. This face. I can't wait for the playbacks. I can actually watch your face. I'm too busy squinting between my tear filled eyes. What are you gonna do? You're acting like I like it. I can't wait for the playbacks again. I actually watch your face. I'm too busy squinting between my tear filled eyes right now. I like it.

I can't do it. Oh my gosh. I appreciate the generosity now. The good news is, ooh, I need it. I need a chaser. Oh. Get rid of that. Some topo to chase it.

Straight topo, pretty good. I have had this. This is the generative to vey rye. Yes. It's pretty good. I will use that to chase away this gin flavor. From the bottle. You got a separate glass with some ice.

I got just, just on the rocks. Nice. Yeah. So I'll drink, I'll sip on this throughout the show as I know it's good. Um, thanks, Kendall. Go out if you guys like. Libations. The URL, fridaydeployment.co,

where they say not every day is a good day to deploy, but every day is a good day for a Friday deployment spirit. All right, so you got this. That is good whiskey. That's some good whiskey on there. Good, good rye. There you have it. Look at that.

That's a steep, that's a $125 bottle he just gave you for nothing. He did, well not for nothing, I mean. I mean. Well free publicity, well trade. He trashed his gin. Well that wasn't necessarily his gin I was trashing. I mean, technically it was his gin.

Technically it's my gin. But. That's true. I don't think you could have put a gin into my mouth that I would have enjoyed. So let's not fault him for that. Yeah. Force push, cool name for a gin, I suppose. And Jennifer Veyri, of course, good pun there.

And here's how we transition out of this. So Kendall, new friend Kendall lives in Denver. In fact, when we thought about this live show, I emailed Kendall and I said, hey man, we're at the Emoc coming to Denver. How about some recommends on some locations we could possibly go in the Oriental Theater was one of the places that he said might work for us.

And it turns out, it's gonna work for us. So if you haven't heard, although we've said it on a few occasions already, we are doing a live show end of July, July 26th, that's a Saturday in Denver, Colorado, at the Oriental Theater. I will be there, Adam will be there, Gerhard will be there.

BMC is gonna be there. Not sure in what capacity, but has agreed to play music of some kind. Banjo. And so that's the plan. So kind of a weekend deal. Everything's optional, you know, come on out. We're gonna do a Friday night meetup.

We're gonna do a Saturday morning live show starting at 10 a.m. And then we're gonna do a Saturday afternoon hike out at Red Rocks. Have you been to Red Rocks? I've never been to Red Rocks. I've been near, close, driven by, but never stopped and enjoyed. Red Rocks is cool.

This is gonna be the case for me. It's gonna be a good time. So to learn more about that, although I just told you everything you need to know, I guess besides the price of the tickets, 15 bucks to come to the show. Five bucks now free for Change.log++ plus members if you're doing the math. Yes Change dog plus plus does cost ten dollars per month

so, you know sign up for a month save five bucks on a ticket that math checks out and Come hang with us. Oh my gosh Fair amount of friends there. We have a lot of fun. We'll do an interview episode We have a fair amount of friends there. We have a lot of fun. We'll do an interview episode. Haven't picked our mystery guest quite yet. If you know somebody who lives in and around Denver, maybe Boulder, maybe Loveland, maybe, I don't know,

Colorado Springs and wants to come to Denver for a live interview on stage prior to the big Kaizen slash Pipe Lee launch, let us know. We would love to hear from you. Ah, Denver. It's where it's at, you know? It's where it's gonna go down, man.

We're live launching PyPly. I just recorded a makeitwork.tv episode last week with Gerhard coding up some PyPly features into our app to be able to purge URLs from our pipe dream. And so that'll be out soon. But yeah, Gerhard's working away at it. It's getting very close. We have honeycomb logs, we have purging,

we have all kinds of stuff going on. So we're getting very close. I think he even has a roadmap. Here it is. Oh, Gerhard posted the roadmap on Pipe Lee's GitHub. How it's going, how it started and how it's going. And we're getting pretty close. So a lot of the stuff is like tagging ship.

He does have a gradual rollout plan now. So that's you buddy. You asked for that and Gerhard delivered it. And the plan at the live show on stage is to route 100% of production traffic through. Oh, I love this. So. This is like a mid-year Christmas present, you know? It's gonna be Christmas in July.

Oh, I'm excited about that. Yeah. Any questions, any thoughts, anything at all before we move on? Adam Denver, live show, hiking, meetups. No, you know, I think. Excitement. I'm excited to do a meetup the one night

and then do a morning show and then an afternoon hike. I think that's a great, it's a great flow. You know, I think so. I think we got 15 bucks to come or five bucks. Basically if you're a free plus member, it's free. Yeah. That math checks out.

Sorry. Yeah. Free. I check my math on that. Check yourself. Change load.com slash plus plus become a member. come for free or don't and just waste your money Come on fool. Don't waste your money foolish. Yeah Right who makes a $15 ticket to a thing like this Jared? Like how does that even how's that? How's that check out?

15 bucks. It's just a serious check. Like, are you serious? Are you actually gonna come? That's all it is. We're not here to make money. We're here to get together. Okay. So.

Gosh, I thought we were here to make money. Okay. No, man. I was just like, having a check there. No, you gotta check yourself, man. That math does not check out. No. This is good.

The roadmap looks good. As a matter of fact, you were talking about that feature in particular with purge requests. Not that I want to toot this horn too much, but I was pretty excited because every once in a while I give Gerhard a side quest. You may notice Jared in the PR, what do you think is in those PRs that's not normally there?

Oh, I do know what's in those PR, because I was looking at it. What's in the PR? Can we you think is in those PRs that's not normally there? Oh, I do know what's in those PR because I was looking at it. What's in the PR? Can we just mention that really quickly? Is that cool? Yes, so there's CodeRabbit, right? Is that what it is? CodeRabbit, our new friends over at CodeRabbit.

Now they are sponsoring, this is not a sponsored mention. I just want to mention this because one, it's free for open source. And because we're open source, we didn't have to ask them. So this is not even a blessed thing, we just did this. Oh, GitHub is down. It is down. Gosh. First time I've seen that unicorn is so long. Okay. So Gerhard, I reached out to him via DM, as you may know. I said, Hey, Cobra has this cool thing for open source for open source. Can you plug this in for us on a repose? If you like it. And he's excited. He. I think he came in like 10 minutes later,

excited like a little kid. And he said, look what's in my PRs now. And he was so excited to show off this PR with this, you know, this purging of whatnot and the feedback that it gave. And unfortunately I'm narrating an unseeable. As I keep reloading the page and it keeps showing us. This unseeable thing, but it gave

a good walkthrough. I'll, I'll, uh, I can show off what's on my screen, at least to myself. Well, we can share yours. We can share mine. Let's share this one. Okay. So you should be seeing this now. This is the recently open PR for author's requests.

PR 16 on the Pipeley repo. And then CodeRabbit comes in and just kind of gives this, here's what's happening scenario. Here's a walkthrough of what this change does. So I don't know about you, but was this helpful to you to come by after this? And be like, this is what this change is doing. And all the files that got touched on what they're doing

as a change summary. Right. Then even this sequence diagram showing what's happening. Yep. It's cool. And a poem. That beautiful little poem. In the warn of code, a token now guards.

Purge request checked by vigilant bards. Feeds with slashes. Queries galore. Redgex says, open the normalization door. Benchmarking is clearer, secrets well kept, the rabbit hops on with tests adept. Good robots, good robots. What's interesting is he asked,

then Gearhart goes on to ask for a generate sequence diagram. Yeah, I did see that. And then it comes down to sequence diagram for PR. And this is really funny because then it like basically shows you how like a pull request gets merged. And it's like, no man, that's not, I don't think that's what he was after. But the other sequence diagram was on point,

but that one was just funny. I was like, thank you for telling us how this pull request is going to get merged maybe. Yeah, I was excited to see this in there though. I was happy to see this because one though. I was happy to see this, because one, love code rabbit, and two, I think it's pretty cool. Pretty cool.

Yeah. Summaries are useful, especially when you haven't been in the weeds very much and you're just coming back to something. Yeah. So that is cool. Side questing, main questing. Side questing.

I gave him another side quest too, but we won't talk about that one though. That one's got some that one yet. It's got some thorns, you know, it's like don't, don't, don't put me in that quest. Okay. I still work on that one. Next up, I thought we would talk through the comments section on our most controversial show of late adventures and babys Babysitting Coding Agents. So we had Steve Yeggy on the show, what was that, two weeks ago now? Published June 6th. About that, yes.

And this episode has generated a whole lot of discussion, which is always fun. Some people loved it, some people hated it, some people thought he was just lying. Other people thought he was inspiring and had whole kinds of gems. So here we are a couple weeks since. Adam, what are you thinking about the Steve Auggie episode? Now that you've had some time to digest. I'm not sure if you've listened back to it at all. I'm listening to it currently. I think I'm like two thirds of the way through. Always fun a few weeks later to rethink your way through.

One of the things that happens live as we record, obviously, is that we are consuming what he's saying from the feed, from the fire hose. And you're kind of reacting and you're along for the ride, but not always able to, I guess, grasp every sentence and think critically about every sentence. And so I think there were some things he said

that when I heard them back, I'm like, oh, I probably should have hopped on that because it seems like it's far-fetched. But here we are now. So what do you think about it now? Well, I think the, barring the fact that the tolling is expensive given the cost of GPUs given the cost of you know GPUs and compute etc, like I think that will eventually flatten out or I

Mean it always does right and that's gonna be it's gonna be expensive now to be on the edge So I think that was the sentiment that was in comments was the fact that these current tollings he's boasting about and what's possible is expensive to run and not everybody can do it. And I get that. But I mean, we were, I recall at the time was just GPT. It wasn't chat GPT. It was just GPT, like early precursors of what has become chat GPT. Kind of like making fun of the fact that it couldn't write copy very well and like it was kind of fumbly and like it was like, oh, that's just a joke or that's not.

And here you are nine months to a year later after, you know, GPT is writing copy for copywriters, the whole world's changed, right? And so I, I'm not on the tip like Steve is, but I feel that he is and he's not the kind of person to be like just chicken littleing us, you know, he's going to be a truth teller. And as, as much as he doesn't even want to tell the truth, he's now babysitting AI agents. Great name, by the way, for the, for the podcast. Such a great title. I think I'm with him. I think there's a lot of commanding agents is what we'll all be doing in some way, shape or form. I think I was even as part of this rereading some of the recent news episodes. I think some of your commentary in the news recently was around this kind

of sentiment is that that we're all as a developer. I think one sentiment you were sharing was like as a developer, you have certain skills and you've already automated so much of your life away because you have these developer skills where normal people just sort of deal with that toil and that tedium. And, And then your perspective was, if I was reading it right, was that everyone else has these same kind of agentic powers now as well, including all the models available. But someone like you, in particular with this developer skill, now has the skill of marketing

and the skill of branding as well, because you can sort of bolt those on and at least get by and do some damage. And so it sounded like, you know, just that you were saying that you have access to these tools like everybody else does. But now you've got these other superpowers too. And right. I'm for it. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm for all this is everything he said exactly going to play out. I don't know, but he's doing it on the daily. So there you go. Right.

Yeah, I think Steve did this for me, which is more than I can say, I guess, for anybody else so far this year, is like he actually gave me a step toward the life that he's living in. the life that he's living. And granted, he's living on his company's dime. Like the money doesn't matter to him. And so yeah, he has multiple agents running overnight

because he has a budget of unlimited tokens because that's part of his job, you know? So we can't actually live his life. I know there's people online who are doing this and they're spending hundreds if not thousands, not four figures a day, which is just outside of most people's budgets to have these things coding all day for them.

But what he said is just go download one of these three. He said, Clawed code, OpenAI Codex or Sourcegraph AMP, which is the horse that Steve rides in on, of course. But to his credit, he says that's for enterprises. So, you know, try this one out. And just give it the stuff you don't want to write. Like the script that you've had in your mind,

but you haven't written because the ROI just isn't there, because it's tedious to write. But if you had it, you would love it, but you're not gonna write it. And I got like six of those just sitting in my head at any given moment. And so I was like, okay, that's actionable. I can actually try that.

And I gave it the old college try, you know, I went out and I tried opening a codex. I couldn't get the thing to work. I feel like their docs suck or I'm an idiot or both. But it just wouldn't work. I mean, I couldn't get it installed correctly. It wouldn't find stuff. My API token wasn't blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like next. Like, okay. You know, 15 or 20 minutes and I'm already in the red. You know, like I could have written this script by now. So I'm sure there's people who have had success with that one, but that was, and I'm an open AI customer, so I'm not against them for any sort of philosophical reasons.

And then I thought, okay, Claude code, let's do this. And I didn't have a Anthropic account prior. This is one of the ones that I've been ignoring for the most part. Having tried many others, ChatGPT, all of Google's offerings over the years, Grok even, and then the open source ones, Llama, Mistral, et cetera.

But I hadn't done Claude, because it was like, well, they're kind of like OpenAI, but different, it's probably gonna be about that level. And what Claude code did for me at the command line, which did seem like actually a more interesting interface for me than, maybe not interesting is not the right word, more compelling interface for me than even inside of Z for some reason, They were great.

I mean, I just told them to do stuff. Like it was kind of like the, remember the image gen moment where I was like, holy cow, this next generation is good now. I feel like cloud code with 4.0, I think I was using 4.0, cloud four. With that, user interface, and which is a terminal app basically,

that kind of asks you questions, walks you through things, lets you kind of tab through options and then goes out and does stuff, is kind of the right abstraction level, at least for my mind currently. And it was good. Like, remember how I was telling you, like Gemini would write me a function,

I'd be like, this function sucks. And I go rewrite it. This is the first time I've been like, not too shabby, Claude. You know, like I'd be like, this function sucks. And I go rewrite it. This is the first time I've been like, not too shabby, Claude. You know, like, I'm just like, hmm. That's kind of how I would have written it or maybe different, but just as good. And it works first try, you know,

I basically one-shotted it as the cool kids say. And it just writes a script and I'm like, well, let me read this code. And I go through it and I read it all. I'm like, yep, checks out, runs it, great. Let's change this, changes it. I'm now doing what everybody does is like share their vibe coding experience.

And so the next one I was like, all right, it's true vibe code. I'm not even gonna read it. I'm just gonna like tell it what to do. Second script, here's another thing. And blammo, you know, just like, now this is a script that runs on my computer and doesn't have to be Q8 or face the real world,

all those like kind of things. But I was like, man, I feel like it's finally good now. And maybe I'm just catching up because people have been using this for three, six, 12 months. But I've been, even Google's most recent model, which is the Gemini 2.5, whatever, Pro Flash, experimental variable, whatever it's called,

has disappointed me. But, and this is, I'm no stan for Anthropic or anything, but I feel like, oh, this, we're at a level now where it's like, okay, I can see what Steve is saying. Now, I also hit up quickly against token limits and stuff where I was like, oh, it's out for the day. And I gotta either go chug some more money into this or stop and wait till tomorrow.

I go for stop and wait till tomorrow because none of this stuff is time sensitive. And so yeah, the expense is massive, I think. But I can see now where if I had this thing let loose on three or four different tasks simultaneously, hopefully not stepping on itself, that could be pretty fun. Like the amount of fun he's talking about was where I couldn't get to

because I haven't had any fun with him yet. Whereas I do have fun making chat, chibit, write poems and stuff, you know? Or making, turning you into a walrus. But this was fun. Cause now it's like, okay, if I don't have to actually QA you to death and like rewrite you, then I'm happier.

So that was cool. Cause now I've kind of changed my perspective. And I'm thinking like, okay, it changed me to be like, what else could I hand this thing and not have to think about it myself anymore, you know? And it wrote a little bit of the code that I put out into the new perch request stuff. What? Just like that, huh?

Yeah. It was like wrote a whole DNS module for me and Elixir. What was the script you had to write? I mean, what was the first one? The second one, what was the task one? The second one was the task. The first one was given a markdown file. I want you to traverse the whole thing, find every link in the file and then go check

and make sure that it is resolves and returns content. So like doesn't 404. And so like sometimes you mistype something or whatever and change the news. And I just want those to all be legit websites. And so that was like round one was that. So like, I'll give you an absolute path to a markdown file and you'll go extract all the links, make HTTP requests,

make sure they actually return content. And that was just fast. And I was like, okay, done. Like, oh, okay, now let's change it so that you're actually gonna check the contents that they return against what I'm linking to them with. So now extract the title out of the anchor or the, you know, the text of the anchor and the URL.

And then let's have a fuzzy match to make sure that they're not just returning content, they're returning the content that I want them to return. So I haven't linked to something wrong, which I do all the time. And people email me and they're like, hey man, that link didn't resolve, or hey man, you pointed to this, but it was actually that. And so that was the first script.

And that took me maybe like, you know, 10 or 15 minutes, a couple tries, and that, you know, kind of 15 minutes, a couple tries, and that, you know, oh, it works, now do it this way. And then the second script, which I had it right, and I haven't looked at the code at all, is okay, now given a mark, so one of the things I do for the video after I produce an episode is I will create screenshots of the top five stories,

because they're gonna go in during the transitions in news and the video between segments. So I'm gonna show you the actual content as a screenshot. And that's just a manual thing I do every week. You know, I go take five screenshots, I zoom them in so they're bigger and make sure they're 16 by nine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's this one I was like, okay, do that.

I was just told to write a script. I think this time I specified a Ruby script and use, this is a little bit of back and forth. Like should it use, what should it use for the actual screenshot technology? And I was trying to use like a Mac OS built in, which wasn't really working.

And I said use puppeteer-cli. So I pulled it like basically shelled out to a node executable. And it's like, should I make sure the executable's on disk? I'm like, no, I'll make sure it's on disk. Just leave that stuff out. It's like, all right, cool. And then it just works.

And I was like, I haven't looked at the code. I'm living the life now. I'm with you guys. I caught up. I'm still single agent, though, and I need to go multi-agent, but I ain't got enough money for this. I'm not not made of money over here. You know, we're selling $15 tickets to our show.

Come on now. Free of you. If we go the different direction. Yeah, I should have told you, we're not trying to make money here, too. So I forgot we're going to to make money here too. So... I forgot we're gonna need money if I'm gonna live this life. Oh... Actually this is a money making venture.

So that's where I'm at. We need to pay for our agents. That's right. Well friends, it's all about faster builds. Teams with faster builds ship faster and win over the competition. It's just science. And I'm here with Kyle Galbraith, co-founder and CEO of Depot. Okay, so Kyle, based on the premise that most teams want faster builds, that's probably a truth. If they're using CI providers for their stock configuration or GitHub actions, are they wrong? Are they not getting the fastest

builds possible? I would take it a step further and say if you're using any CI provider with just the basic things that they give you, which is if you think about a CI provider, it is in essence a lowest common denominator generic VM, and then you're left to your own devices to essentially configure that VM and configure your build pipeline. Effectively pushing down to you, the developer, the responsibility of optimizing and making those builds fast. Making them fast, making them secure, making them cost-effective, like all pushed down to you. The problem with modern day CI providers is there's still a set of features and a set of capabilities that a CI provider could give a developer

that makes their builds more performant out of the box, makes the builds of features and a set of capabilities to where their source code already lives inside of GitHub. And they do care about build performance and they do put in the work to optimize those builds. But fundamentally, CI providers today don't prioritize performance. Performance is not a top level entity inside of generic CI providers. Yes, okay friends, save your time, get faster builds with Depot, Docker builds, faster GitHub action runners,

and distributed remote caching for Bazel, Go, Gradle, Turbo repo, and more. Depot is on a mission to give you back your dev time and help you get faster build times with a one line code change. Learn more at depot.dev. Get started with a seven day free trial. No credit card required. Again, depot.dev. Okay. again depot.dev. Okay, so what was the total spend roughly?

Oh gosh, I don't I don't know. Cost of subscription kind of thing. Well, yeah. Well, that's why I don't understand. And I'm just like neophyte over here because I have the so I pay open AI 20 bucks a month. And so I went well, I'll just pay Claude or I'll play Anthropic for Claude AI, the same. And I think I did like 200 bucks a year or something.

And I was like, that gets me access to Claude code. But for some reason, that money doesn't translate into your actual API access either. So you have to go to like the Anthropic console and put more money in there. It's all very confusing. Like you get some use, but then it just like rate limits you.

I don't have time for any of that. So I haven't gotten back to it since then, but I was just very excited. So I don't know how much it's cost. I mean, I threw 200 bucks at them, but I don't think I've used that. But I also don't think I can use it because I think it has to do with like their web UI.

Do you know the answers to these things? I don't. I got like a year of Claude pro or something. And I thought that was what I needed. But then it's like, you can use Claude code, but not too much. Not too much. Use the Claude pro then.

Yeah. And I was like, well, I just gave you 200 bucks. Can I use it a little bit more? They're like, no, you're gonna need to give us more money. I think I was the same. I was playing with the API key from. Open AI and my check GPT subscription essentially. And I wanted to take the same API token that I was using with that and have access

to my own open AI models, I suppose through open web UI. So this is a locally running via Lama web UI. So I wanted to kind of like have one place to go, even for my already paid for us. And it's actually not an extension to my knowledge at least. And it's not an extension of chance, you PT your subscription, it's a whole separate API key that you fund differently,

which I can kind of understand in one way, shape, or form, but it's like, it sounds like you had to pay or it seemed like you had to pay a subscription to even get access to give them even more money for the specific API token. Something like that. And you can go in there and top it off and use it or something, but. It's a different payment system for some reason. I don't know there and top it off and use it or something.

But it's a different payment system for some reason. I don't know why. Maybe it's the way they meter it. Maybe it's the way they pay for it. Yeah. It's like two different product teams is my guess. And like they just don't, they're not simpatico. It's like the API product and then the chat bot product.

And I thought I was buying access to everything. Cause they said, if you have Claude Pro, you can use Claude code. And I'm like, that's what I wanted to use. And it's like, yeah, but not very much. Okay. Yeah, so you had to have Claude Pro to get access. You paid for access to give them more money for more access.

That's right. That checks out. I mean, like a certain membership tier gets access to the special things. That makes sense to me. So you had to pay for that membership tier tier gets access to the special things that make sense to me. So you had to pay for that membership tier to get access to the special thing. But the access came with not giving them more money.

You know, it wasn't like, here you go, use the 200 bucks you already spent. It was, nah, we need some more. Right. And so I haven't given them the more yet, but they'll still give me like the drip, you know? Like you can get, you can't get the flow, but you can get the drip.

And I'm like, well, I'll just write one script a day. Fine with me, you know? Like I don't need. But in order to try to live the life that Steve is talking about. And then I go out and I see what people are paying for this stuff. So if we go into the comments section

and read some of the commentary, of course, Bryce was one of them. And in our comments, Brian Buchholz, or Buchholz, not sure how you say it, Brian, he went and found out what Gene Kim is spending monthly on YouTube. Well, that's at least what the thumbnail looked like. Gene Kim is on the thumbnail, maybe it's not him talking,

I did not read it, because I just took his takeaway. Which says, regarding monthly spend, found this on YouTube saying he, and I assume that he is Gene Kim, spends $300 to $500 a day. So that's $100,000 a year. And this is Brian's math. And it's like, okay, maybe worth it.

If you're replacing, I mean, if you're basically, the option, the other option is like hire an engineer. Now I know that's, you know, brutal and harsh and maybe inhumane, but I will say the experience that I had with one agent, doing agent decoding for me was already better than experiences I've had telling humans to go do things. You know?

Like the feedback loop is faster and there aren't opportunities to offend it. You know, like if you quit, like if you tell me my code doesn't look good, I might be offended. Now maybe I'm not, I got thick skin, but, or you know, I'm just having a bad day and then something else and you're like, Jared,

that function is not right. I might just like go off on you. Right? But like this thing's not going to, it's always gonna be like, oh, you're like, Jared, that function is not right. I might just like go off on you. Right? But like this thing's not going to. It's always gonna be like, oh, you're right. And there's actually, there's something there. Like the fact that it's not a human, sometimes doesn't mean mistreated at him.

I'm not saying mistreat it, but like just don't worry about his feelings. It doesn't have feelings. It makes it more fun to delegate to it. Cause you're like, I just tell it what I want. I don't have to like, I it more fun to delegate to it. Cause you're like, I just tell it what I want. I don't have to like, I don't have to do the same. What's the sandwich method? You know, like start with a compliment, then criticize,

then give a compliment. None of that. I don't have to do any of that. I'm just like, yo bro, this function's broken. And he's like, you're right. I should fix it. And he fixes it. I'm like, yo bro, this function is broken.

So like there is something to that where it's like a hundred K for a good engineer or a hundred K for like three or four of these all day, every day. I'm not sure what that actually buys you. There's a point where it becomes a pretty easy decision for somebody like me who does not like to manage or micromanage humans. Yeah.

What you've uncovered is the removal of emotion and relationship in Task delegation which to human history thus far has not existed emotion has been there humanity and social norms and offense all those things are in that scenario. And now it's possible to completely remove it and still, you know, explore in the dark, like you might with new hires.

Yeah, like you'd tell someone like, hey, go try this out and come back to me and let me know how it goes. Yeah, like it's not like, you know what? That task didn't happen because I had a headache. Now it might say failed retry or something like that, which is maybe a similar version. Yeah, API rate limited.

Yeah. Those are different problems. That's money. You can solve that with more money. You throw money at that, right. You don't have to throw like interpersonal skills at it. That's how I looked at it. Like when people were talking about

how they spend their money or how certain people spend their money or how certain people spend their money using these tools, I thought, well, they're just swapping out the same budget they had applied to solving the problem with humans. They just solved it with a singular human or maybe a smaller team of humans with agents or tools tooling. You know, it's it's what we've been doing already. It's just now it's unfortunate.

It's becoming literal humans in the loop that are not in the loop anymore. Or at least being competed against or tried against, like you just said, you got better results if I heard you right, you got better results with this than you would have or have had given the same task with a human with maybe less moaning and complaining. Or even just emotional overhead for me. Right.

Maybe there wouldn't be any moaning or complaining. Everything would go fine. But I don't have to even care, you know? Which is not a small thing. I mean, it actually, it's like, oh, this is fun. It's like having a code rabbit that's just like, I'm a rabbit, I don't have any. Like, just give me the instructions.

I'm gonna go do it. Maybe I'll fail, maybe I'll be correct. Like all the things, you gotta fix them, correct them, things go wrong, they're dumb, et cetera. But no actual human in the loop there, like just me and a bunch of little AI babies building this thing. I think it really, I do not think it's the near future for most people.

I do think it's the medium term future for most people. And it's certainly, unless something changes with these companies providing these services with regards to like copyright or whatever, regulation that slows it down, I'm sure that capitalism squashes the costs eventually to marginal and it's definitely a future now I can say,

you know what, I wouldn't mind living in this future. As a guy who makes software, I feel like I can make way more software if this all continues to trend the way it is. So that was my result after taking Steve's advice there with just go try it on some script you haven't written yet because you just don't want to or it's too hard or whatever. Should we read some more comments from people?

Because there's just so many thoughts on this episode. For instance, Andrew O'Brien, the gig economy for programmers does not fill me with excitement. This was something that a lot of people took issue with. And Steve's analogy that you'll have this gig economy inside of enterprises where you just kind of rent a coder for a day or whatever it is, you know? Like coders on demand in order to do code review or whatever it is you have to do.

And Steve was saying this is like a great new thing that's gonna happen and most people are like, ah, that's not really something we want in our enterprises And Steve was saying this is like a great new thing that's gonna happen. And most people are like, that's not really something we want in our enterprises because I mean the good economy has been both a blessing and marginalized, which again, that's where we are, right? That's what we just talked about, but I talked about it in a good way. Like I don't have to have a human. But I think everybody becomes the master of their own domain.

I mean, I feel like for people who have, I mean, I think there's more agency assuming it's affordable and works and et cetera. I feel like it gives more people more agency and removes the skill, which is what hurts for so much of us is like, yeah, the skill doesn't matter anymore. My skills don't matter,

but your judgment now matters way more. Your taste matters way more. Your ability to communicate matters way more. So it's certainly a trade off. Yeah, I was actually reading that one. You said the rise of judge, well, you didn't say this is somebody else's title, but you wrote this for news. Yeah, I wrote about that.

Yeah, the rise of judgment over technical skill. And I think that's certainly going to become more of a decider for folks is like, I want to understand your judgment, not your skills. Cause you kind of, you can kind of learn most things for the most part, but do you have good taste? Does your taste align your beliefs align with mine? Right.

And the direction for this thing, you know, you know you know, I, I cut, it's kind of cliche to come back to the Uber thing. Cause that's really where a lot of this gig economy stuff began. But I think about even simple things like our recent trips out of town, like the last three or four trips, you and I have limed everywhere. town. Like the last three or four trips, you and I have limed everywhere. And whereas before we would just not go and do much outside of the hotel, just within walking distance, unless it was like a nice hike or getaway. Like we would do that too, but like less frequently because of that.

You know, I don't know. Limes are electric scooters. Yeah. Limes are Uber accessible electric scooters. You can use the Uber app to reserve them and put them and pay for them. It's a separate company, I believe, unless Uber bought the company. But it's like integrated.

Yeah, I know they at least started as their own company. But I think Uber either acquired them or integrated them in a smart way so that you can just, you don't have to have the Lime app. Now I've done the same thing with Bird, which is Bird is another electric scooter company that is out there. It's been in Kansas Cityime app. Now I've done the same thing with Bird, which is Bird is another electric scooter company that is out there. Like it's been in Kansas City is where I've done it.

And they kind of got beaten by Lime in this way is like, well, now that I already have the Uber app, why would I want the Bird app? I'm just gonna use the Limes because they're in there. So, but you were making a bigger point. I was just pointing it out. It's crucial to say that, because like if you haven't traveled recently

from your city to a different city, you know, appreciate the fact that when you do this next time, not only will you be able to Uber from the hotel, or sorry, from the airport to the hotel, once you get to your hotel, if you'd like to not Uber anywhere else, like get in the car and go somewhere, you can simply go to the nearest corner in most cases,

pull up in your Uber app and scan this QR code on the lime, the lime scooter and just happily get on it and go wherever you want. Not provided it keeps its charge and has power. It will take you wherever you want to go. And for the most part, safely, it's up to you. There's no helmet involved. You are suggested to ride on the roads. They don't, they tell you to stay off the sidewalks.

Although I saw you on a sidewalk on a recent change on news. Did you see me almost hit that guy? I saw something. I saw something. Oh man. That FedEx guy or UPS guy hopped out of nowhere. I about took him out. Yeah.

I slowed that down and replayed it for people. So like, that's a good moment. Yeah, that was a good moment. Anyways, but but that you can go somewhere now. So the reason why I bring this up is not the camp on this sort of like well-known known fact, which is Uber exists. And this is where gig economy began and marginalization began. But that we now have a new thing as individuals to go to a whole new city.

And like you said before, this goes back to agency. We have the agency to step outside of our hotel. We could flag down and Uber. We can rent a car. It's just less practical now. If we have a lime, because we can easily just hop on your lime and my lime, and we just go and we scoot and we have fun,

and we stop and we get off and we leave it. You can just leave it wherever you want. Take a photo and then go into the store and do what you want or go into the restaurant for three hours and come back out. It might still be there or a new one is replaced that somebody else brought there that's fully charged and you just go again.

Like to me, that agency in a city is how I compare this. Like that's a beautiful thing. Other things will be versions of that, either in the agent world or in the physical world that are a result of that technology being available. Like that to me is just so cool, honestly. Yeah, absolutely. And some of the stuff that Apple showed off at WWDC

with the ability to call local models on your phone. And then basically, like if vibe coding gets good enough where everyone can just vibe code their own little iPhone app for their one use case that no one else is gonna use. Like that's pretty awesome. Like that's gonna make a lot of people's lives a lot better. A lot of people who previously would have hired some team

that's gonna charge them a hundred grand to get their thing done, you know? Like it's just not never gonna happen. One category is like, I have a business idea. I'm gonna go fund it to build a thing. And like that becomes cheaper, of course. But like the even more generally usable thing is like, I have this annoyance that I don't like.

I wish I could fix it. My life would be slightly better. And now it's like, hey, Xcode, why don't you do a thing that makes an app that does this? And it's like 10 minutes later, it's deployed on your iPhone just for you. Like that is, that's pretty cool. That is beyond pretty cool, man.

That's super cool. That's super cool. Yeah, it is beyond pretty cool. That is beyond pretty cool. That's super cool. That's super cool. Yeah, it is beyond pretty cool. Returning to the comments section. J.R.W.R.E.N. Jr. Ren. Not sure how to pronounce that handle. Says, I don't know what to say

after listening to this podcast. Other than I just plain don't believe him. Not sure if he's lying intentionally or if his experience is some special niche or if I'm just straight up wrong. I like that comment. Oh, yeah. Because there's some like wiggle room in there

like, well, maybe he's lying. Maybe. I just don't believe him. I just don't believe him. It's just hard to believe. Yeah, I think what he's not saying there, he's not saying that Steve is a liar. He's just hard to believe. Yeah, I think what he's not saying there. He's not saying that Steve is a liar. He's just saying that

He's in disbelief that it's possible Is how you read that? Yeah, like he's not sure if he's actually lying or if it's just like he's living a world of not living in It's hard for him to believe now. He does say in the second sense. I'm not sure if he's intentionally lying Right or lying intentionally He does say in the second sense, I'm not sure if he's intentionally lying or lying intentionally. So I guess he kind of answers my question. He's questioning himself whether or not this guy's lying or not. Yeah, funny. It very much is the future.

I mean, it's very much a snapshot, not the future, the literal future coming, but a version of what's coming as a result of the future coming, I guess is a different way to say it. Like, it's not a snapshot of what I think we'll do in the future, it's today's version of the snapshot. Okay, yes thank you. And then AJ Carrigan replied to that response and agreement, I had that feeling too,

with regards to either him lying or just being wrong. I've been in a much tamer AI curious zone, more like baby steps than babysitting. Nice turn of phrase there. And Amps warning, that's the source graph coding agent about if you want your cost limited and predictable, don't use this effectively warned me off it. I feel like most people right now in mid 2025,

this is too expensive for most of us. In the way that some people are using it where they're spending $300, $500, a thousand bucks a day and really leaning into it. I just feel like it is too expensive and it warned me off of it too. Like I just stopped. I was like, okay.

I haven't even gotten to where Steve is. I haven't gotten two agents going at the same time yet. I'm like single agent status. Show title. So my experience slash appetite slash skill were all too far away from Steve's to practically relate. Still in a nursing show though. It's useful to see what people with a ton of resources

and AI focus slash optimism are getting up to. Christopher Patty hops in and doubles down on how expensive it is. Infinite money. And of course, you know, Sourcegraph is one of the companies that's trying to capture some of that money. So there is that nuance to the conversation as well. I mean, they're trying to capture the money,

but they're also been trying to solve the same problem for, it's not like they came out of the woodwork and like, let's create Kodi and AMP and source graph to just grab your money. And like, they've been solving a problem for developers for the better part of a decade. Sure. So they do have a financial upside, obviously,

if you choose them. I get that. A large one. Like they'll make tons of money if, if amp becomes the way. Yeah. Yeah. We're just fine. Like if it becomes the way that is every bunch of money, right? You know, I mean, everybody has agents though, right?

And like everybody, every brand I can think of, you've got, I don't want to like too, too many horns, I suppose indirectly you got You got Agent Force from Salesforce, not a sponsor, technically. Technically, they are through Heroku, that's Salesforce. We talked about Agent Force as part of that campaign. It just didn't land. It was spoken about in regards to Her Roka being a better platform for application developers. Therefore agent force, uh, retail has agents out now that's uniquely positioned to like take advantage of the existing retail internal tools you've built.

So now the agents you build out will have access to these internal tools. I think that's the coolest thing ever. Honestly, great timing to be retool. Yeah, I don't know how much different AMP is compared to like a retool, like how these agents separate. Like what the differences between source graph AMP, for example, and retool agents. I'd imagine they're marginally different,

but similar tasks, just not the same overall landscape of feel, what they can agent over, so to speak. Then you got agents like you were doing, which is in the command line. So they got file system access, stuff like that. It's a whole different scenario. You got agents in the cloud, agents on the desktop. I guess I just want this unpredictable AI, predictive AI, so to speak, to work for me in the future. And that's what agents are. Is you find places to put the work and they do the work. It is the best source of automation in so many ways. Like I don't have to write the business plan anymore

because I just described the business and it writes the executive summary and all the models and all the math now provided the math checks out. That's why you have to run one against the other, which I've done multiple times because I'm always questioning business model ideas. That's different, man. That's different.

It's crazy. I'm rambling here, but this world we're gonna live in is really interesting. I think we are obviously, Steve was talking about the future. He, I mean, he literally gets paid to play with R and D. I mean, like that's where he's at. So like his tail was not the tail of like some Miranda who decided to like investigate it's somebody who's paid to R and D for a well-funded, uh, I would

say AI first now company called source graph. That's his job is to R and D for a well-funded, uh, I would say AI first now company called source graph. That's his job is to R and D for them and to dream. And so he's seeing the, a glimpse of what that dream is after being a 30 plus, 20 plus year veteran in software. It's a pretty substantial opinion to listen to. For sure. Well, he also wrote the book on vibe coding, which the funny thing about that, and I think I said this to him afterwards,

is like, dude, that's not coming out till October. Isn't vibe coding gonna be so different by October? Like this feels like the kind of book that needs to be constantly updated, like in real time. Yes, out right now. The state of the art continues to change at a rapid pace. Let's read a couple more comments.

There's so many of them, we can't read them all, of course. If you're not in our Zulip, what's wrong with you? Great conversations being had. That's right. Lots of interesting people join and converse with us. Tim Uken or Uken, we've heard from Tim in the past. He's got the bear take here. Imagine a future where a generation of young men

who are smart and energetic enough to learn to code can't get jobs. Imagine in addition, those there are a huge number of young men who are laid off and have nothing but time on their hands and are desperate to make a living. I'm not hopeful for the future after listening to this. We all thought automation would go after unskilled positions and everybody could just skill up and get a better job. Now it's going after the highest skilled jobs, or the future after listening to this, we all thought automation would go after unskilled positions

and everybody could just skill up and get a better job. Now it's going after the highest skilled jobs, coders, designers, creatives, writers, doctors, lawyers, engineers, financial analysts, stockbrokers, et cetera. You know, let's scroll back up to that one. Let's camp out there for a second. So I think about this a lot. So let's pick out lawyers, right? Okay. We've paid lawyers before, right?

Jerry, we've, we paid lawyers dinner sums to do things too much, too much, in my opinion. I think they charge a crazy amount per hour. Does that mean they're not skilled? The, the workforce, I guess society forces them to go to very expensive schooling at length. And so they should be paid well. I get that. But there are so many things I've paid a lawyer 400 bucks an hour to do that they show off to the person that doesn't get paid for the bucks an hour that they still happily charged us 400 bucks an hour. Cause Hey, that's our, that's our rate. Okay.

There's no discount for when we show it off to the future me that only gets paid 100 bucks an hour. You know? I get it, companies, margin, profits. I get it all, I get it all. Lambos, I mean, you gotta get out of Lambo. Yeah, but there's just so much, there's just so much expenditure in that world where like there's room to sample off some.

And as a business person, I get to move faster because I have again agency to take control for certain things and to me that's a fun world to live in you know it's a fun world living I like that world what you showing off here this comic here I was just looking at a comic that somebody put in those trying to see if it was worth reading. It's basically just representing the fact that we were replacing all the fun things like art and not plumbing. And it's like, we need robots for plumbing.

Oh, we're working on robot plumbers. Trust me. I don't know that we are, but I know that we are. And by we, I mean the human race. Someone's working on robot plumbers, aren't they? I think you might okay So let me try and predict this Okay on the record. I think There's definitely prediction in the way buildings large-scale buildings will get plumbed

like why would a human do it when the AI can do all the Downslope and angles perfectly right? Why do all that math a human shouldn't do all the downslope and angles perfectly, right? Why do all that math? A human shouldn't do all that math. At some point, software should learn that math and the human should think about grand architecture and tasteful things. So that's probably one area is design,

plumbing design systems. Happily automate that away, unless I'm that person, I'm pissed because I just said that. Who does that? So I do feel for that person. But now they got to move down the VIA chain, right? Now they got to figure out, was it implemented right until maybe the AI can do that. Move up the VIA chain. Yes. Thank you. Then I think about maybe there's some sort of autonomous robot that can build certain configurations and turns and U shapes that maybe the onsite plumber doesn't have to do that.

They can just hand the task really fastly to this thing. They can like hammer out this intricate whatever. And all you got to do is plug it into the thing. And I know I probably sound very vague when I say that, but imagine like this, you know, complex configuration of plumbing that just gets automated by the robot and the human sort of like puts it into position or knows where it should go. That to me is probably pretty, pretty common. An actual person getting replaced by a robot under the sink though, in the traditional sense of a plumbing behind the toilet, replacing the toilet, that's gonna be a human's job for a while.

Yeah, at least a few months. At least a few months. And honestly, if you're a- I'm just kidding. You know, a friend of mine, let me see if I, I'll pull up the text real quick. A friend of mine just shared this with me and this kind of fits into here.

And he was talking about this idea of lifestyle entrepreneurship. And I'll just read a couple sentences of it because he says lifestyle entrepreneur builds a business designed to support their desired lifestyle, power, has any personal freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment over maximizing revenue or company size. So if I'm the person who does that kind of plumbing and I can step into a role that not a lot of people wanna do, I do it pretty well.

I do it when I want. That's a lifestyle entrepreneur opportunity. You can be a great plumber and do that kind of work on the simple home scenarios or the grand scale remodel or complex enterprise scenario, maybe less that, but more so the one, the other one where I'm like, I can go in and plumb, I could do a job a robot probably can't do for a long time.

They do some of it, they can assist me. They can assist me on slope or which size, I don't say which size plumbing, which size pipe to use, you know, and help me say, which size plumbing, which size pipe to use, you know, and help me on all the adapters, like play all that for me. And I'll just do the hard, I'll just do the work, the part that the human can do and should do pretty much forever,

which is like precise, precision, no leaks, check it, water pressure, okay, cool, it works. Robot, nah, for a while. Planning it, designing it, yes, okay, cool. It works. Robot, nah, for a while. Planning it, designing it, yes, robots. Give it to me right now. I might take the complete opposite side of that. Okay. I think the human has to be involved in the planning

and the deciding, of course, they're AI assisted. Because that's where the judgment is. That's where the discretion and the wisdom can be applied. But the robot can do the precision motions and perhaps even lift heavier things and fit into places. These are of course our humanoid robots, which they're working on. And I think, you know, backbreaking work,

every plumber I've ever known, and I've known a handful of them, by the time they're 40, 50 years old, you know, their knees are shot, their back is jacked up. They wish they didn't spend the last 30 years plumbing underneath a sink or underneath the toilet. And so I feel like the human needs to be in the loop where the judgments are made and the robot should be doing like, you know, bender from Futurama, like bend, bender

bends things, you know? I don't know. Who knows what it's going to look like. I could see yours being true. Did I say both though? Planning it and doing the intricate bends and stuff? Well, you said the human's there with the precision and the. In placing it in place, yeah, I think. Right. Because I mean, what autonomous robot can easily maneuver into places?

Well, not right now, but they're working real hard on this. I mean. They are. Now we watch a lot of Boston Dynamics, my son and I, my youngest and I, like for entertainment. And so I would say I'm pretty schooled on their abilities. And it's mostly boring, weird enterprise things

that they carry. Well you start with the easy stuff. From here to there. You know, it's. But I mean specialized machinery is only a step away from like robots, right? I mean, they are machines that build things like the precision tooling inside of a car manufacturer. For instance, I know Tesla has like what they call a robot that's doing this, these, these precision motions.

Now one that can do arbitrary tasks like they're working on, but yeah, I think that's probably pretty far away. But specialized robots, you know, flipping hamburgers, not very hard. Whole bunch of teenagers not gonna be able to get their job flipping hamburgers because why, why would you deal with a teenager when you have a robot that all it needs is some WD-40 and you know, a kick in the back and it's good to go.

It'd be kind of cool to walk up to a burger shop and it's just not so much a robot specifically, like a... A humanoid robot. Yeah, humanoid kind of thing. But it's like just, it's just automation. We want a robot that acts kind of like a human but isn't one.

Yeah, it's just automation. You see it in motion. I mean, they've been doing that with like donuts for a while right? Yeah, they compare the donut rides on. Yeah, yeah. Laverne and Shirley showed us that in the 80s. You know, in Milwaukee.

Lucille Ball, right? I love Lucy. Yeah. She had her assembly line. Yeah, you know, I feel like that's not too far away, especially with how hard it is to hire these days and how, you know, with minimum wages going up, you just push small businesses to automate.

They'd rather, you know, have a capital expenditure on a robot than hire more people at that wage. So yeah, it gets to be pretty dicey for humans, like Tim's talking about, you know. Tim's so right. Gosh darn it. I think we're all a version of right though. I mean, we're, unintentionally we're questioning the value of humanity, right?

Like we're not really trying to question it, but we have to, because I think it's pretty common for someone to say, I would prefer to not deal with a teenager and their emotion. And so if that's the case, and you can choose an autonomous robot like thing, whether it's automation robots

or like a literal humanoid robot, you're probably gonna make some version of a pragmatic choice. The pragmatic choice says this route, less error, no emotion, all precision, happily happy to mess up and say they'll fix it and then fix it. Or I came in late, I've got entitlement, you know, whatever these kids these days are saying, I don't know what they're saying.

I'm leaving early. Now at the same time, I've met some really good kids taking care of me at restaurants and places like that. So, you know, it's such a- Oh yeah, there's always good kids and there's always, you know, good for nothings. There always has been. Well friends, building multi-agent software is hard.

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components to compose and scale multi-agent workflows. You can now build with other engineers who care about high quality multi-agent software. Visit and add your support, that's agntcy.org. That being said, I've been watching Alone again. Have you ever seen this show, Alone? I don't think so. Okay, so this is a survivor competition show where they drop 10 people, 12 people, however many it is, out in the middle of nowhere, they this is a survivor competition show where they drop, you know, 10 people, 12 people, however many it is.

In the middle of nowhere, they'll pick a location that's difficult. These are survivors, like they're professional survivor kind of people. Okay. And their job is to stay alone in that location and survive. They do all their own. Survivoring, of course, that should go without saying, but I said anyway, they do all their own survivor and see a robot. This level of redundancy. Survivoring, of course. That should go without saying, but I said anyway, they do all that on Survivoring. See a robot would never give you this level of redundancy.

And then they also do their own recording. So like they have GoPros and they do like, there's no one there with cameras. There's no camera guy or gal. Wow. There are alone. Now like once every couple of weeks, this like a crew comes out and does a health check with them

on ways to make sure they're not like actually dying and then leaves. That's their only contact with humanity. And so it's fun to watch because you gotta survive, they're cold, they're whatever, mosquito bites, they gotta get, most of them are starving, like they have to find food, very difficult, they have to have shelter.

But most of them, most of them end up going crazy and quitting, like you can also tap out whenever you want. Like you just phone in and like I'm officially tapping out or whatever you say, and they come and get you. Almost all of them lose because, not because they're starving or they are bored. It's because there's no humans. It's because they're alone, it's because they're lonely.

And the more tied they are to, it's almost like the better life they have, but it's more tied they are to, it's almost like the better life they have, but it's more tied they are to people back home. Like if you got kids, you're done, you're smoked. Like I, in the first episode was fun. Cause I go through and I like, know which ones are not going to make it. It's like, I got a two year old.

It was like, you're smoked. You know, you might as well just quit today. And then there's other guys like, I brought a picture of my kids. I'm like, you are so done. Like there's no way you're going to look at that picture for like six hours and then be out of here. It's your weakest moment you're turning around.

But there's a gal, the most recent one, that's the Australia version, which Australians are surprisingly wimpy. I'm just putting that out there for the universe. Dude, these people gave up so quick. It's in Tasmania, but they're all pretty much Australians. I thought they would be tougher than this, so take that Australia.

But a couple of them last a long time, and there's one gal who's like, her daughter died at a young age, and she's divorced, and she's kind of, she didn't have much to go back to, you know? And I'm like, she's got a good shot. Anyways, the whole point is, we talk about not needing the value of humans, right?

We talk about the value of humans. And do we need them? And what value do they bring? But in a world where like everything we do, like you go get your coffee in the morning, it's a robot. You know, you go to work and you work with AI robots. And then you go out for lunch and you're sitting there with a robot serving you food or whatever.

The value is the humanity itself, right? Like we're going to be a lonely world. Don't you want the humans in there? Yeah. They want to want the humans in the loop. There's 100 percent value to the human connection, obviously. Yes. And I think that's where all clawing for is like, where will society be okay with removing? And where will society be zero okay with removing a human? And I think that's, that's probably

the struggle of the next 10 years of humanity is where that will be the next 10 years of tension in humanity is like, where are we okay with removing and not removing a human in the loop? Because you're right, when I go to pick your favorite coffee shop, I wanna walk in there and I wanna see other humans in there doing their thing. Yeah, totally. Sitting down drinking their stuff, hanging with friends, meeting with people.

The classic coffee scene. And I don't wanna go to a counter where I gotta push a button or it already knows about order like even if It was better coffee. I like talking to Sally or John or Bob or whoever's behind the counter Because that's what life's about right there. They're my neighbor. They go to church with me They I see them in HEB the grocery store, you know I see them, you know at jujitsu class my kid kid or whatever, or baseball, pick your thing. That's the fabric of society.

And I think that's gonna be the challenge of humanity is like keeping or not keeping certain fabrics as we kind of go forward. Where are you okay with removing that? Now, hey, let's talk about car washes, okay? Let's talk about it. Okay. Last time I went to a car wash, a kid or a version of a young adult checked me in to my order. Okay.

They pushed a button and told me, follow these people. And there was a, you know, a line of cars. Right. I went through this system. They maybe did some like wheel scrubbing and maybe some extra applications, some things that are like bonuses. Maybe they're bonuses because humans did them. The robots did everything else.

Okay. My car and my truck came out. Yeah. I mean. Average. Average. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was not a human done job. But do you need that? You know, I don't know. Right. Like what's good enough.

I feel like on that. so we have the same things here where it's like Rocket Car Wash or Tommy's Express or whatever and it's like 99% machine and there's like a human there and you know, some 16 year old kid is bored out of his mind. He's just waving you through, you know. We have the one where they're supposed to spray you for like to get the bugs off,

but the kid just like, whatever guys, he just kind of like spray in the water wherever. Spray in the wrong place. He's been there spray you for like to get the bugs off, but the kid just like, whatever guys, he just kind of like spraying the water wherever. Spray in the wrong place. He's been there for like nine hours and he's bored out of his mind. And, and yet the car wash is always just like. Hummin. Suitable.

You know, yeah, it's busy, but I'm saying like the end result, you're just kind of like, meh, like it'd be so much better if a person actually did this, but not worth it for the price. Like for the price, you're like, meh, like it'd be so much better if a person actually did this, but not worth it for the price. Like for the price, you're like, yeah, but you know, 10 bucks or whatever. Yeah, you're never gonna get that from a human.

Like, people will never do that job for that price. That being said, like a human at the front and then at the end, like doing the dry off and like the touch-up work or the finishing, that's a good combo is like, human in the front, you know, the human sandwich. Human, AI, and then a human. There's a show title.

Again. Human, AI, human. That's a human sandwich. I'm full of them. You are. You did a good job today. You got a shit hole in there. Well, I've been drinking this whiskey, you know.

Oh yeah, I forgot you were sipping on that whiskey. Woof. See, as a sober person, it's so strange because I'm never not sober anymore. I'm also sober. Just because I'm drinking this whiskey. Yeah, I figured you were. I mean, I'm not sober.

You don't lose it on a podcast, but you might be a little bit more tipsy than I am. I guarantee you are. Well, I definitely have more alcohol in my body than you do. That's true, that's true. So I'll give you that much. Yeah. You know, just keep the humans, you know, just keep the humans. We're here. We're humans.

We want to work. I don't even like laughing about this. I'm gonna get slapped in the face by humans and robots at some point in my life for my comments. This is gonna go out to our feed and Tim Yukin's gonna come here. He's gonna be like, you guys. Transcribed. We're the fools in the microphone. I think he might be from Australia.

So this is the double whammy. He's either New Zealand or Australia. I think Tim is from Australia. Take that Tim, your people are weak. People are weak. Ha ha ha ha ha. Go watch Alone in Australia. And they drop like flies out there.

It's very surprising. Okay. Is it better than Naked and Afraid? I haven't actually watched Naked and Afraid because I just don't have any interest in the naked part. I don't either. It's always blurred out. Like it's not why you watch it. It's just stupid though. Isn't that just a stupid gimmick? I don't think it is. Now, let me tell you why I don't think it is. Because like a lot of people will come to that show and you'll see at the comments, where's the version without the blur? Um, there is no version without the blur. You weirdo.

That's not the purpose of the show. It's literally to strip the person down to their nothing from something to nothing and live the 14 or 21 days or whatever it is. And I think there's a little bit, cause they always pair a guy and a girl together. And so there may be some of that in the relationship part of it. Yeah, like we're both naked.

Yes, and like you're like, how far will they go with their own separate lives and they're commingling to like make it work? That's part of the struggle. So I think that's maybe the edge of the naked and afraid part of it. But I've never personally watched it because I'm like, you know,

trying to get a glimpse of the blur. Like, it just doesn't make any sense. No. But the fact that they did go from like, I came here clothed and I had to be vulnerable and take my clothes off. Yeah. And then be literally what God gave me to survive out here.

Like that to me is a really compelling show. Is there a time limit though? It's like two weeks. I think it's 21 days if I remember correctly. to survive out here. Like that to me is a really compelling show. You know, there's- Is there a time limit though? It's like two weeks. I think it's 21 days if I remember correctly. That's the big difference here with alone is there's no time limit. You can just survive as long as you can survive.

And you don't know if the other people have dropped off or not. Oh my gosh. Because you have no contact. So maybe you're like, it's two people. Maybe there's a bunch of them still going. Maybe the other person is starving to death and you're doing great. You have no idea what's happening.

So that's the difference. Also, don't you think like the naked and afraid, if the prerequisite for the show is like, look, here's what you're signing up for, you're gonna strip down naked and then whatever happens next, doesn't that really limit like the pool of humans that you could possibly recruit?

Like you already guarantee that some probably crazy people are coming on, which is good for TV, but for me, I like the survival style. I like seeing how smart and resourceful they are and stuff. I just feel like Naked and Afraid doesn't invoke that style of show to me. It's just like somebody trembling behind a tree. You know, once they're in of even they don't even care anymore. Like, like once it's gone, like past that first close off moment, it's kind of like not even part of the show

anymore. What's the afraid part? Well, I think the fact that they're in Tanzania or some random places. Yeah. Okay, not only was I dropped off in Tanzania, but I'm dropped off in Tanzania during storm season. Right, so I know today it's dry, I gotta get over to that hill, and if I do, I can get to the place where I can create my shelter,

and if I don't, I'm spending a half day through those thistles and the rain, and you'd be cold by the time you get there. So it's strategic thinking, you know, and the fact that they're naked, that means there's no shoes either. So everywhere they're literally barefooted. Right.

They're exposed as extremely as you can be to the elements. Do any of them fashion clothes for themselves or anything? They do. Yeah, I mean, there's versions of the show that are like, they call them naked and afraid XL, I believe it those there's versions of the show that are like they call them naked and afraid to excel I believe look like extra large like the I'm not part of the crew. I don't make up these names and It's like multiple teams you would get dropped off by yourself

And you will have to find your people and then you have like this four-person squad and there'll be multiples of those so there might be like three or four, four person squads. And then it's all competing, but individually too, because you kind of are on this team and I want me and Jerry's team to win. Obviously, you know, I want to survive, let's just say, right. But then there's times where like, you know, I may I may tap out and you may continue and you join somebody else's team, you know. So now you got like team changes and stuff like that happening.

There's a lot of like unexpected things or you got this dude who's like, Oh, you know what? I'm going to eat this alligator's eyeballs because they're great for protein, but they're also really great for parasites. And this dude like basically has to get out, which is something that happened on one of them before he ate the alligator's eyeballs and then he regret He ate the alligator's eyeballs and then he regretted eating the alligator's eyeballs.

He didn't make it past the day after that. He was gone. Yeah, he's gone, you know? And you're like, hey, that dude eats some really weird stuff. Let's not eat what he eats, okay? Cause he eats some really weird stuff. Well, I'm glad the XL was referring to the team size.

I thought it just meant like plus-size people, you know Yeah, no, they they everybody's you know, and they invite the the legends to they let invite the legends back to you know Yeah, this is a deep catalog. It really is. I mean, it's I mean, it's probably 15 seasons deeper more I'm guessing Wow people must like the show at least at least I mean Honestly, like I don't know what other people feel about naked and afraid or the naked part of being naked and afraid, but it's always been the hoot to be like seeing that person in the comments. Where's the version without the blur that there is none. Just got every episode has one.

Unfortunately, it's just part of the name, but I think it's got a great premise, which is why I like alone. I like the idea of alone. I think I actually, it might be more fun with a prepared survivalist, fully clothed, potentially. But then there's also some excitement about somebody who's like, you know what? I've seen some people survive, where I'm like, there's no way he or she is surviving.

And they're the one who thrives. You're like, how did that person who was skinny as all get out, no fat at all in their body to lose, you know, they're gonna be a skeleton afterwards. How do they survive? 21 days you can just starve. Yeah. That's where I think like with alone,

like to win alone, I've watched enough seasons. You gotta go at least two months. Like no one's gonna win without 60 days. And that's like serious, you know, like you gotta really survive. You can't, well, one guy did just put on a bunch of weight and kind of just outlasted everybody else, but you gotta find food, man.

Whereas 21 days, you could just survive and just suffer through it probably. I don't know how you actually win then. Who wins and why? So, this is, these are all great questions. So typical show. These are all great questions. So typical show.

This is like a interview here. Yeah. So typical show is a pair of people. It's usually guy and a girl. Okay. I don't know if they've ever been guy, guy or not or girl, girl. I'm not really sure, but it's always been like a gender swap pair kind of thing. And you win by literally surviving.

So you either tap out and you don't win, and it's, or you don't and you get to the, you know, the, they call extraction points. You have to literally traverse to an extraction point. So you might go somewhere and camp for the 21 days, but the extraction point might be a mile or two or three or four east. And you got to camp somewhere and then extract elsewhere.

So you gotta do- Yeah, that makes the premise quite a bit different than alone. I think both have their reasons to exist. Now XL version is the same thing. It's just survival. Like you've got to last the days. And those who last the days are part of the team that wins.

There's no like I Win over you or you win over me. It's just we all win if we're there at the end. We've all won So that's how winning or losing is is chosen there, but it's like you're really a team like the individual show is When we land if we don't team up and we fight or we have disbelief or we don't align They're probably gonna fail, just because that's how it's gonna work. You have to band together to make it through. And those who don't tend to not survive,

those who do tend to survive pretty easily. And in fact, some of them are like, this is really fun to watch because not only they're not dying, they're thriving. Like, wow, they were able to get a snake and a came in or whatever it might be. And next thing you know, they're eating snake and came in there. They they've got they've smoked it.

Now they got like came in jerky. It's like, you know, they're eating like kings kind of thing. It's kind of it's kind of wild. And the ones who are sucking, they're like, dang, they're really like they're eating poop. You know, like they're eating the wrong stuff. You know, they're eating this fruit. You should not eat, you know. Oh, yeah. Or eating a lot of know, like they're eating the wrong stuff. You know, they're eating this fruit you should not eat.

You know? Oh yeah. Or eating a lot of banana, unripe banana. Could you imagine eating only banana for three weeks? Oh gosh, no. I'd rather starve. I think there's actually some virtue to the starvation strategy.

If you only have to go 21 days, then eating a bunch of bananas, you know? Tell me though, how do we get here? You can shut your metabolism down, you know, after a couple of days of not eating. Yeah. And last quite a ways, as long as you have some reserve fats. But how do we get here though with this?

How does this relate back to? Okay, let's tie it all back together. So we've all gotten this far, we've all survived. You know, if you've made it this far, you're with us still. We are the winners, we've survived. How are we gonna survive this coming AI apocalypse? Well, Adam said it earlier, we have to band together. We have to team up with your fellow humans

and promote each other and help each other and equip each other. And we have to leverage the tools that we have, otherwise they will simply squash us like the cockroaches that we are. And so I'm gonna be out there grabbing on some agents and tell them to do things, boss them around before they start bossing us around.

Dog, what do you think? Is there any more than that? Well, for now I have a job, Jared. That's all I got right now. For now I have a job Jared That's all I got right now for now I have a job there you go and we just finished our job let's call it a show See you in Denver If not, what's wrong with you if you can't make it to Denver in July, obviously There's lots of reasons why you might not be able to but if you can please do We love to meet up with as many folks as possible.

We're gonna have fun with or without you, but more fun with you. So please do come. And- Preferred with you. Yeah, exactly. Thanks again to our new friend, Kendall Miller, and his Friday deployment spirits.

Pretty good whiskey. Gin, you know, if you like gin, maybe it's good. I can't tell. I can't tell I can't in but I do appreciate him sending us out some spirits and Anything else or just say goodbye friends and hang up I think change all the comm slash alive is the place to be I'm excited about July 26 in Denver. It is a big deal to launch a pipe Lee It's so much work going into this.

Like I think we're underplaying it like a little bit. So we want to boast too much. But like I'm going to boast just for a second. Feel mine like, OK, go for it. Please come here. We want if you can, if you can spend the money to fly and hang. The ticket is, of course, super inexpensive. We're a hike.

We're a live podcast. We're a launch something cool. We're gonna hike, we're gonna live podcast, we're gonna launch something cool, we're gonna meet up. We want you there, come see us, changelaw.com slash life has all the details. It's super easy to come and we're basically made it free for the most part. If you wanna throw us a membership to get it free, you can, if not, just pay the actual fee

and we wanna see you there. So I know I do. I we want to see you there so i know i do uh i'm excited to see you and garhard and aaron dowd's coming back jason's coming our editor of course the whole team will be there breakmaster cylinder will breakmaster new beats potentially we'll see i'm guessing like why would he not bring new beats i think fresh beats are on order fresh beats yes for sure and the mystery guest you, we just don't know we just don't know yet. But if you come you will know that's right You will know That's it. All right

Bye friends. Bye friends Well, that's it this shows done thank you for tuning in Well that's it, this show's done. Thank you for tuning in. Friends is over back on Monday. We will see. We will see. I will tell you one thing though. I look forward to seeing you in Denver.

Live. changelog.com. Slash. Live. Go there. Get a ticket. Come and see us. Live show.

In Denver. IRL. All the things. Come on, I want to see you there. You should also be in our community in Zulip. ChangeLaw.com slash community, free to join. Get there right now. Hang out with people, make some friends, all the good stuff. Okay, that's it. The show's done. We'll see you next week