The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - LIVE from Denver with Nora Jones! (Interview)

Episode Date: August 6, 2025

We're LIVE at the historic Oriental Theater in Denver, CO with Nora Jones. Nora is the founder of Jeli.io, recently acquired by PagerDuty and she's been shaping the way we think about reliability, incident response, and human-centered engineering for years. We get into the real story behind the deal. Not just the headline, but what it’s like selling your company, what it takes to actually integrate a product into a larger platform, how customers responded, what changed for her team, and why her new role at PagerDuty is basically everything she was building Jeli for.

What's up, friends? Welcome back. This is the change log. Well, today, it's a live show. Yes, live from Denver. We're taking you there to the Oriental Theater. Yeah, we did a live show, and you were invited. And if you didn't come, it's cool, it's cool.

But you missed out. We sat down with her friend Nora Jones, a Denverite. She's the founder of Jelly, which was recently acquired by Patriot Duty. This live conversation gets into the real story behind the deal, not just the headline, nor shares what it's like to sell her company, what it takes to actually integrate a product into a larger platform, how PagerDuty customers responded, what changed for her team, and why her new role at PagerDuty is basically everything she was building jelly for.

It's honest, it's insightful, and it's live. Of course, a massive thank you to our friends and our partners at fly.io. Yes, Fly is the home of changelaw.com. and Pipely. You learn more at Fly. DiO. Okay, let's do it live. Well, friends, I'm here with Damien Schingleman, VP of R&D at Oz Zero, where he leads the team exploring the future of AI and identity. So cool.

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And when it does happen, when you are building these things and you need to get them into production, you need security, you need the right cardrails. And identity, essentially, authentication, authorization, is a big part of those cards. What we're doing at 0.0.0 is using our 10 plus years of identity, developer tooling to make it simple for the

developers, whether they're working at a Fortune 500 company, and they're working just at a startup that right now came out of Y Combinator, to build these things with SDK's, great documentation, API-first types of products, and our typical OTH0 DNA. Friends, it's not if it's when, it's coming soon. If you're already building for this stuff, then you know, go to OthZero.com slash AI. Get started and learn more about OTH for Gen AI at OffZero.com.

again that's off zero.com slash AI. Hello and welcome to the lovely Oriental theater in Denver, Colorado. Thank you so much for being here. I'm Jared. I'm Adam. And we've been doing the changelog podcast for a very long time, but we've never done this. So thank you for coming. This is truly a special time.

And we wanted to have a special guest with us, a Denverite, and a really cool person. And luckily, we found Nora Jones. Let's hear it for Nora. Thank you. Nora is the founder and CEO of Jelly, which is an incident management and learning platform. Then we had her on the show a few years back in an episode called Learning from Incidents.

That was February 2022. Since that time, Nora has and the Jelly team have been acquired by PagerDuty, where you now work. Love that. and your title's really cool. And long. And long. Wait for this.

So I'm going to read it for us all. You're a senior director and the head of pricing and product, strategy, and growth. That's three jobs. Yeah, too many hats. So let's start with the acquisition. So tell us about jelly. You're part of a much bigger organization now. But just briefly, the jelly journey.

starting it and then take us to the acquisition. I'm sure you could do that in 30 seconds. Yeah, absolutely. So I started Jelly in 2019, and prior to that, I had spent my entire career as an engineer dealing with incidents. I was working at Netflix. I worked at a company called Jet.com, which got acquired by Walmart. I worked at Slack for a bit, and I was kind of doing similar roles in each of these

companies. And what I really learned through these companies was the power of post-incident reviews and how they could really rally an organization to drive change and focus on understanding other people in the organization's perspective. And what I really started realizing was how much could be learned from how we speak to each other during incidents. So how we talk to each other in Slack, when there's gaps in communication, who we bring in, why we bring them in, what they're doing, and that can really be used to build more expertise within organizations and really understand where discrepancies and misalignment lie in a productive way. So Jelly was a product that we built based on real problems I was experiencing. It was really a tool I wished

I had had in some of those situations, and so that was where it was born. And I'm, you know, very, very nerdy about incidents and that topic and reliability. And, you know, I've been a PagerDuty user my whole career, and so the acquisition came up. It wasn't something I was looking for, but I've, you know, always admired PagerDuty, and I actually was like, this could be really good for the industry, actually. having these products together and interconnected. So it made sense to me, and yeah, here we are. How did you feel about the acquisition process?

You said you didn't plan for it. How did they come about? Do they reach out to you? Are they fans? Were they users? Yeah, no. I mean, so the first two integrations that we built for Jelly, like before we even had customers, were Slack and PagerDuty.

So we were like really tightly integrated, right? And the integration we had with PagerDuty was getting on-call schedules. So, and we were using the on-call schedules to figure out if people were actually supposed to be there during incidents, or if we were pooling in people that weren't on-call. Because that can indicate, oh, there's, like, you know, a knowledge silo, an expertise gap, right? If we're constantly relying on people that the business didn't actually plan to be there. So that was the first integration that we built with PagerDuty. And so, you know, I spoke at one of PagerDuty's conferences in, I think it was 2020.

It was like their first remote conference. And so we had always kind of been friendly and maintained a, you know, relationship for a few years. And then, you know, they reached out and asked if, like, we wanted to have more serious conversations and so I started exploring it and that it just kind of made sense you know we had been doing jelly for five years and it was either we develop our own like on-call solution and expand that way or we join you know the most powerful player in the industry with that and so it seemed like a really unique opportunity when you looked at that acquisition uh as a founder you think exit right because that's a good thing you built something you want to profit from that you want to see

your work, be recognized. Pay days are great, obviously. But how do you also think about the one thing you said in your early part of it was how you thought about the product and what the industry could leverage from the fact that Jelly moves to page of duty? They've got a much bigger distribution than Jelly did, so it's obviously going to be good for the industry. How do you weigh that choice between personal gain and the industry of people you know and love and the product they need to succeed? How do you weigh the difference when you can consider that acquisition? I mean, I don't necessarily think those are separate things.

Like I mentioned, I built this product because it was something I wished I had had in my jobs. And so that was really, like, kind of my North Star was getting it out to everyone. And so after the acquisition, seeing the usage of something that I had built, you know, get automatically included in people's toolkits when they start a job was like what I

had really dreamed about and so I think it was mutually beneficial from that perspective does Jellie as a platform still exist as part of PagerDuty today like is it a tab or is it a subsection or like yeah so it's it's within PagerDity so one of the things so I spent the first year helping integrate the platform helping integrate the cultures right it's very different bringing a 20-person company to a 1,200-person company. And some of these people had never worked at an organization bigger than 30 folks. So, you know, there was some adjustment there.

And then one of the things I noticed was within PagerDuty's pricing and packaging, there were parts of the incident life cycle that were almost limited to the enterprise plan. And so they immediately put Jellie on the enterprise plan, but I started realizing there's really more of the incident life cycle that should go downstream to all plans, right? And so I launched that project within PagerDuty, so Jelley is actually available to all plans in PagerDuty right now. Is it called Jelley?

What's that? Like do they opt into Jelley or is it called something else now? It is called Jellie in the user interface. it'll probably eventually just be called post-incident reviews, but that's, you know. Well, you're in charge of products, so you can change that if you want to, you're right, you can keep it or change it. The reason why, oh, he's saying you're in charge of products so you can decide if that's your name. Yeah, I mean, I think it, you know, at first it made sense to keep the name,

but I think it evolves over time that I think if the name was something more relevant to what it did, it would probably make sense to keep it, but if someone is in their page or do to UI and sees the word jelly, they're not going to know what that means. Yeah, totally. As much as I would hope they do. We focus on the name, but I think it's a proxy for this handing off of a thing that you built. And the attachment, as somebody who built something that you have for a company or for a product, and the name kind of represents like an era or the thing, right?

Jelly is the thing that you built. And so I just, I ask these things because I'm always curious about the emotional attachment of a founder of the thing they built. And sometimes you have to, like, part with that. Like, it's like, I'm selling the thing. It's gone now. But it sounds like this is a good case because it's going to continue on, maybe with a different name. Maybe not.

But you didn't really have to let go. Yeah. You know, it's integrated. There's more integration that's being worked on. It has, you know, a product manager managing it. You know, I handed off my baby. But it, like, it felt like the right thing to do, you know. so yeah I mean and we have a lot of plans for it too so I'm excited to see how it evolves

what was the response from page of duty customers as you said it became an enterprise first and you're like now it needs to be for everybody and then so you expand it to all the plans so every page of duty customer has access to jelly whether you keep the same name or not what was the response like to have this I know it was already out there as a company but you've obviously tapped into maybe an audience that never heard of jelly or heard of it less or maybe it took it less seriously, but now you're acquired by PagerDuty, the biggest in the industry. I mean, we call it PagerDuty because it's PagerDuty, but it's also a company. So what was it like, what was the response like from the existing customer base of PagerDuty having this new tool?

Yeah, I mean, so when we got acquired 90% of our customers were PagerDuty's customers, and the very first customer I sold to with Jelly, giant enterprise company, right, which is very rare for startups and so all of a sudden most of the companies that were using us were large enterprise companies which is a lot for a tiny startup you're kind of trying to act a lot bigger than you are you know like I'm someone wants to talk to the salesperson I'm like let me go put on this other hat and I will be your salesperson for a second but at chambers yeah exactly But, yeah, and I just actually lost my train of thought. Sorry about that.

Good job, Adam. No, no, no. I forgot the question. Well, you were saying putting on different hats. You were going from like founder to sales to janitor. Yeah. Because of everyone's customers. Oh, you were asking how customers reacted.

Yeah. Because we shared so many of the same customers, those customers reacted really well, right? Like they were already using both of us. So it's like a new integration, right? That will just make it work even better together, you know, eventually like one piece of paper, no multiple contract cycles. And then I think the other thing is like, you know, PagerDuty was originally created to page folks.

And PagerDuty has done a lot more than that over time as well, but I think we were also filling a critical area of the platform that hadn't been invested in much. And so a lot of customers were like, oh, this has been, you know, on our user voice request list for years. And now, you know, it's finally happening. So, yeah, we've had a positive reaction. How did it work once you're on the inside with regard to your personal drive and initiative? Because you've kind of been to the top of that mountain, like starting a startup and building

and scaling and getting enterprise adoption and then making a sale like that. that's like a huge accomplishment. And now you're inside the behemoth, right, the Pager Duty. Is it like, well, now I'm going to climb the corporate ladder or like, well, how did you think about it? Because you have a new title, I noticed, since the one that you got when you first joined. So you've climbed, it seems, a certain a bit. But is that what you decided is like, for your own ambition's sake,

now I want to move up Pager Duty or now I want to have jelly rolled out to more people? Or how do you look at that side of growth for you? Yeah, I mean, I've been reflecting on. this a lot recently and there's a lot of stages of grief involved in it too you know but i had been an engineer my entire career prior to starting jelly and so i actually had grief you know from being a ceo and not being in the code right like i would you know want dopamine hit so i'd go update our marketing site like every now and then just to like feel like i was doing something even though i was doing all these different things but you know i also realized part of the reason i started jelly was

after incidents in an organization, a lot of the time every role is impacted in some way, but also a lot of the time, if there is a post-incident review, it's just done by engineering. And they're not going and talking to marketing or sales or customer support necessarily. Like it's usually done in a vacuum or even executives. and I started realizing, like, as an executive, as a CEO of Jelly, that I had my own sharpened. I had my own area of expertise that, like, you know, when I was an engineer, I always kind of felt like, oh, executives don't get it, right?

Like, they don't get, like, you know. But then when I was an executive, I was like, oh, I didn't get it back then, right? Like, I was able to see a different side of the coin. And so I'm bringing all this up because now I get to be in a new role in a large organization, I've worked at large organizations before, but always as an individual contributor engineer. And so from my perspective, I'm like, oh, I'm like learning another side of this coin. And so it's really interesting to me to have played all these different roles. So that's, you know, kind of where I'm at right now is like I'm learning a lot.

You know, I'm getting to run pricing at a large public company right now. And it's fun and it's challenging. I'm just kind of enjoying where I'm at right now and taking it a day at a time. So you have pricing, product, and growth. What else is there? That's three jobs, right? I mean, you're over it all, so you're over three divisions or three different silos of the same thing, right? What are those things?

Are they goals? Are they divisions, product, pricing, and growth? Are those mandates for you? How does that manifest? Yeah, so good question. the role I have is head of product strategy and growth, and I think that product strategies should really drive pricing and drive, like, how you organize yourself, how you ship your product, and so I'm really helping with, like, the forward-looking roadmap, along with, you know, my colleagues

and taking input from them, and then leveraging that to drive pricing. So I do have those three different units under me. And I am wearing a lot of hats right now. I am hiring. So if you know anyone, please let me know. And is Denver like a locale or is it all remote and you just happen to be in Denver? It's all remote. I happen to be in Denver. There's like 50 Patriot Duty employees that live in Denver. So there's a lot of folks here. Is there an office or anything? There isn't. We always say our office is the brewery. There you go. Let's go meta for a second. Give you an opportunity to get a drink.

I've seen you glance at your drink a couple of times. Lowercase M. Meta, not the real meta. I still despise them for trying to steal one of my favorite words. Meta. Grock and meta have both been stolen by billionaires, and I'm not happy about that. In podcasting, there's an interesting psychology to it because intellectually you know there's going to be listeners later.

And whether it's 5,000 or 5,000 or 50,000, you come into it and you're like, this is going to go out to people. And so there's that first five or 10 minutes where you're thinking about that. And there's a really cool thing that happens because in reality it's just three people on effectively a Zoom call. And those five or 5,000 or 50,000 people aren't there. And so you kind of just forget about it. And it's neat because the conversation becomes very relaxed. and you might forget there's an audience. In fact, sometimes people afterwards say,

hey, I can't believe I said that. Can we ex-nate that or whatever? That doesn't happen on stage. That's my meta point right there. That's my meta point. I'm very well aware. You're there, right? We're happy you're here.

We can barely see you. I'm reporting back that so far, it doesn't feel yet like just the three of us sitting in a room, I guess, because we're not sitting there. In all, honestly, I love this format. I'm loving it. Like, we should do more of it. What do you think?

Yeah, I think so. We should do more of it. I didn't want to be the first one to say AI. I was going there. Okay, go ahead. Well, with you. Okay. Let me pull my notes, actually.

Something you, I guess first, let's start with this. Obviously, AI is the latest breakthrough for everybody. And it's almost a mandate for every organization to somehow figure out how do we leverage it? How do we enable it? And some of it has been generative. Some have been simple summarization. what has been your position with being in charge of product to think about this new tech that's burgeoning and infiltrating and welcoming?

How are you thinking about it for page duty? I mean, I'm thinking about it in a lot of different ways right now. I think every single company in the world right now is trying to figure out how to use AI, how to develop policies around it. and, you know, for B2B SaaS companies, they're trying to figure out how to monetize it. Yeah. And everyone's in the early days of it,

but also everyone's kind of going through that because that's how the market is reacting, right? There's expectations around that. I think especially within software reliability, you know, my take is on focusing on when the agents fail because that will be the case. And, you know, PagerDuty has been the one that you call in those situations. And so where my head's at right now is how do we keep being that for folks, even in this new age?

And how do we help them with the parts of PagerDuty that are tedious or annoying? So, for example, we're developing a shift agent that takes care of your schedules for you, because I know that is the largest complaint. Beautiful. I love that. Yeah, shift agent. Yeah, shift agent. So it's like things like that. You know, I'm not a huge fan of AI that I feel like takes away the necessary human tasks,

but it's like the things that feel tedious or boring. And I don't remember where this quote came from, but it was like I don't want AI to make my art for me. I want AI to do my laundry for me. so that I can make more art, right? And that's kind of how I think about it as well. But I use it every day, multiple times a day, and it's been huge. Well, friends, I'm here with a new friend of mine, Hard Dot Gill,

co-founder and CEO of CodeRabit, where they're cutting code review time in half with their AI code review platform. So Hard Dot, in this new world of AI generated code, are, we are the perils of code review, getting good code into our code bases reviewed and getting it into production. Help me understand the state of code review in this new AI era. The success of AI in code generation has been just mind-blowing, like how fast some of the companies like Cursor and GitHub co-pilot itself have grown. The developers are picking up these tools and running with it pretty much. I mean, there's a lot more code being written. And in that

world, the bottleneck shifts the code review becomes like even more important than it was in the past. Even in the past, like companies cared about code quality, had all this pull request model for code reviews and a lot of checks. But post-gen AI, now we are looking at first of all, a lot more code being written. And interestingly, a lot of this code being written is not perfect. So the bottleneck and the importance of code review is even more so than it was in the past. You have to really understand this code in order to ship it. You can't just wipe code and ship. you have to first understand what the AI did. That's where CodeRabbit comes in.

It's kind of like think of it as a second order effect, where the first order effect has been Gen AI and Code Generation. Rapid success there now. As a second order effect, there's a massive need in the market for tools like CodeRabbit to exist and solve that bottleneck. And a lot of the companies we know have been struggling to run with, especially the newer AI agents. If you look at the code generation AI,

the first generation of the tools were just tab completion, which you can review in real time. and if you don't like it, don't accept it. If you like it, just press tab, right? But those systems have now evolved into more agentic workflows where now you're starting with a prompt and you get changes performed on like multiple files and multiple equations in the code.

And that's where the bottleneck has now become code review bottleneck. Every developer is now evolving into a code reviewer, a lot of the code being written by AI. That's where the need for CodeRabbit started and that's being seen in the market like CodeRabit has been non-linearly growing, I would say. It's a relatively young company, but it's been trusted by 100,000 plus developers around the world. Okay, friends, well, good.

Next step is to go to codrabbit.ai. That's C-O-D-E-R-A-B-B-B-I-T dot A-I. Use the most advanced AI platform for code reviews to cut code review time in half, bugs in half, all that stuff instantly. You've got a 14-day free trial to ease the credit card required, and they are free for open source. Learn more at CodeRabbit. One thing you said recently, and this is on X. Okay. You said the complexity of novel incidents, which I thought was pretty cool, of novel

instances will only increase. Can you describe that? Yeah, I mean, we are going to have incidents that we have no idea how to predict right now, and they are going to involve things that no one internally wrote. And so we also have to figure out how to debug them. And I think that is going to be challenging. I think the level of incidents we have are going to reach this rate where they're very challenging for a little bit. We're going to understand them a little bit more, and it's going to normalize.

But I don't think we've hit that point yet, right? So I think we're all kind of like bracing ourselves for it. I even saw someone was using, I think it was Replit, and they deleted, Replet deleted the entire code base during an incident. It was like a new, and, you know, the agents apologizing like, oh yeah, sorry, I really shouldn't have done that. That's bad. That's normally when you would fire somebody. That's Tritup out of Silicon Valley, okay?

Season 6, that happened, the TV show. Yeah. So when we were in Seattle, when was that May for Microsoft Build, there was a, I don't know if it was a demo or a video, there were some claims that I didn't substantiate one or the other, that they had agents on standby to resolve your incidents for you, or at least to do the first level of triage on an incident so that that pager goes off maybe later, maybe not at all. and I thought that seems really awesome like I would not it would be nice if nobody was on PagerDuty like that's a world that we all appreciate it's not a reality yet

but they're starting to be people saying that that kind of stuff is going on from your purview inside PagerDuty like is that going on are there agents doing that kind of stuff yeah and I will caveat this you know and just to put it simply I think there's a few different types

of incidents right there's the well understood which are probably not even incidents anymore. And I'm sure all of us have worked at organizations where someone is urgently doing or fixing something that they've probably fixed before, and maybe there could be more automation around it, right? And so that's where I think AI could really help

is like those interrupts that, you know, and we've all seen it, we've all worked with someone where you're like, why are you still spending your time doing that, right? Like, there's better things for us to be doing right now. And so I think that's where AI can really help. And then I think there's partially understood incidents where it's like, this kind of feels familiar, but not totally. I think AI can maybe assist there, but it shouldn't take the wheel. And then with the new and novel ones, like I was talking about, that needs to be pretty human-driven.

And so I think it's just AI will really, really help with the, with the kind of tedious repetitive incidents and automation around them, that I think would save us all a lot of time and allow us to focus on the things that really need our focus. Are you at a level where you're still involved with the incidents? How much do you talk to the user, I suppose, is the question. And too, can you give some details on the specifics of the novel incidents? Like a terrible one or just like when you're like, wow,

I would have never been in my imagination before. Yeah, so I'm not in incidents anymore, but I'm talking to our customers and our users every single day. And it's still one of my favorite topics. I definitely do disaster tourism in our incident channel just to see and understand. But I know better than to try to hop in, you know. But I think a lot of the new and novel is going to be around the leveraging agents, leveraging generative AI in parts of production

in areas that we don't understand. I think that's really where a lot of it's going to come up. I'm very curious about the company that had their codebase deleted. I would love to read that incident review when it comes out. Undelete that AI. Undelete it now. Yes, undo, undo, undo. Are there any, this could be historical as well, not necessarily new and novel, but any fun incidences that are no longer under NDA, you don't have to name any names or anything like that, but like, certainly there are probably situations that have become legend amongst your teams over time, maybe internally, or maybe just like anonymously, externally, crazy stuff that's happened. Can you think of anything? It doesn't have to be like the craziest ever, but. Like recent? No, just whenever. I mean, yeah, I have my favorite instance.

Like I will, you know, I always joke that when I'm, when I'm old, I'm just going to be reciting incident numbers because, you know, like 712 still sticks in my head and 6.59. Like, I remember those incidents because I basically slept in the office that night, you know, trying to resolve it. And I think, I mean, a lot of the incidents were trying to figure out in a very simple way how a piece of technology was supposed to. to work. And a lot of the times we had put the technology through the paces and almost leveraged it to do the things that it wasn't meant to do, right? Like console, for example, Kafka, like those have been in some pretty hairy incidents in my experience. And a lot of the time it's because we implemented them without having deep subject matter expertise in them. And then, you know we also saw the power and the flexibility of some of it and used it for things that it wasn't necessarily meant to be used for and then a lot of the folks that design those things don't work at the company anymore right so then you're trying to figure out live what the

intention was of this decision and what the expectation was and what's actually happening and you know those can get pretty complex can you take us tactically into I know you spent you said a first year kind of integrating. When did you begin this kind of newer role? Was it a year after like you integrated and you started forming a team? Take us tactically into forming that team, strategy, rejiggering, page or duty product, pricing. Like how did you rethink a lot of what was going on there? Yeah. So when I joined PagerDuty, we had like two main product orgs. We had incident management and then we had another product org that was doing automation and, and AI and it was like kind of focusing on other use cases, so like CS users or FinOps, you know.

So we obviously went into the incident management organization. There was, you know, no team around post-incident reviews. And they did have an integration team that was in charge of a bunch of different integration. So like Service Now, Datadog, that team was all. also in charge of the Slack integration, but it had been very under-invested in. So they, you know, I obviously had the team I came in with, and then I also had the chat experience team, is what we called it, which was our Slack

and Teams integrations. And so the very first task we had to do was, you know, we were obviously selling Jelly standalone prior to the acquisition. The very first task we had to do, was to get it into one of the existing PagerDuty plans, which was the enterprise plan. And, you know, working at a startup,

I was using products that get things into skews really quickly, and I didn't realize the complexities of it in a large organization. You know, when that was deemed my first task, I'm like, cool, that'll take like 20 minutes. That did not take 20 minutes. So I learned a lot about that process. and then it was also taking the existing PagerDuty Slack app and bringing all the jelly functionality into that Slack app.

So that took about a year to really fully integrate and it's live, so you should check it out. And then, you know, midway through the year, that was when I kind of had that realization that our pricing wasn't totally matching our value. And so I just, you know, kind of like I just kept sharing it in meetings over and over again until I think I annoyed enough people that they were like, okay, you can go do it. And then I ended up in the head of pricing role after that.

You have a new job now. I have a new job now. Yeah, exactly. So after launching it in all three product lines, we went through a reorg internally and aligned our organization a bit more to the customer value, which was around six months ago. And so my new pillar of the org is product strategy, growth, and pricing. So I have pricing analysts under me. I have engineers working on growth, onboarding. I have folks working on insights and analytics, so really driving, like, what are patterns we're seeing and how do we feed that back in so that we can help you with the well-understood.

and then, yeah, pricing analysts and product intelligence folks as well. So they are looking at how users are using the product, which areas they're getting the most value out of, to really understand where we should keep investing in. Growth at Jelly, OG Jelly was probably different than growth at Page of Duty. Yeah, or you didn't have growth. Can you go into some of the details of how it's different, how it's changed? Is it scary? Is it just way bigger?

You have more money to spend, bigger distribution, because you have much more customers. What's it like? I mean, yeah, we have way more customers, right? Like, I, at Jelly, you know, I had personal phone numbers of all of our customers, right? Like, that's not able to be the case at PagerDuty. And so I also have to, like,

I think customer relationships are so important, but I obviously can't have relationships with all of our customers now. So I also have to, like, use more discernment. and I try to form relationships based on where I'm seeing usage. So, like, for example, we have an incident roles function or capability in the product. And I, you know, and we obfuscate a lot of the data, but I could see, like, people were creating a manual scribe role. And we actually have, like, automation that does that for you, right?

so that no one's, like, typing the entire Zoom call, which is, that's, you know, not a great use of time. Like, that would actually be a good use of AI. So, you know, I'll reach out in those situations, and that's sort of really how I think about it. I'm thinking about it from the customer relationship perspective, and I'm also thinking about it in terms of, like, an entire incident life cycle from, like, detecting, to triaging, to mobilizing a team, to resolving, to learning. If I see customers that are like only here, I try to go talk to them because when you're only in the detect in like the noise phase without having standard processes all the way over here, you're going to end up in this hamster wheel and you could actually drive a lot more improvement and save a lot more time. So that's really how I think about it is just in terms of customer value, which I think is where my background really helps. Like, I really love being in this role because I've been a user. And so it's nice for that to come full circle.

How much code do you write? Zero. I mean, just in my free time, yeah, but not at work. Yeah. Is it because AI is writing up for you? How much code do I write? Way less than I wrote a couple months ago. If you set AI aside and imagine, like, OpenAI hadn't done what they did with ChatGPT,

November of 22 and everybody freaked out and it changed the course of the industry. What would the product roadmap look like? What would the product? Like you're looking at product at page of duty, right? Like what your initiatives certainly changed. I'm not sure how multi-threaded you guys are in terms of things you can work on at the same time. But everybody has to have an AI strategy. And that's because everybody has to have an AI strategy.

Yeah. So that drives product. We were actually joking about it last night at the meetup. It's kind of like when one cool kid in middle school gets Air Jordans. Whether they're ugly or not, it's like everybody has to, what's your Air Jordan strategy? Like how are you going to get the Air Jordans? And it's like, I got to figure something out. I don't know.

My friends are going to ask. That's kind of AI right now where it's like, what's your strategy? You have to have one. So like that's driving a lot of the product roadmaps, right? Totally. If that wasn't something you had to think about. Yeah. You would have more freedom to build kind of what you would like to.

Or, I mean, maybe you haven't thought about that because you're too busy thinking about what you have to think about, but in a world where you didn't have that necessity, what would it look like? I mean, I think, like, it has driven some of our product roadmap, but it's also made us faster in a lot of ways. Like, I don't spend, you know, a lot of time coding in my organization because that's not, like, my best value to the customers or to the company or to the folks I'm managing, right? But what I have found AI useful and is not just like driving the product roadmap, it's like actually aligning folks, right? I can have it, you know, if I have an idea or if I've been seeing a lot of customer data, I can mock up something really quickly and have a conversation with our engineers, our designers, and our executives way more quickly than I could have otherwise, right?

we don't have to spend a lot of time, like in a lot of design cycles, getting that initial wire frame, we can just start to visualize. And so I think it's been really actually helpful with remote work from that perspective, especially when you can't get in a whiteboard with someone. So I do think it's made us faster. Like I think we would be slower. Sure. I would certainly be slower without it. I think in terms of- Just like Air Jordans.

I mean, you run faster with the nice Jordans. What's up? I was just, I was making a joke. It was bad. You run faster if you have jordan. Jordans. Yes, yeah, exactly. Sorry. So, but, yeah, in terms of the product roadmap, like, you know, I don't think there's never

going to be a world where we have zero incidents, right? And so I think those are some of the wrong problems to go after with AI is like trying to get to like zero incidents. It's more to handle the more well-understood stuff so that engineers can focus. their time on the only, on things that only they can do rather than things that agents or AI can help with. I think the whole industry is going to get it wrong in some cases. Like we are very new at this and we're all kind of like stumbling toddlers with AI right now, right? And so we're going to mess up. And I think we just have to like reflect on here's a good use for it and

here's a not so good use for it rather than trying to use it for everything. And so that's my biggest worry is that people are going to get overly dependent on it for things that they should not get overly dependent on it for. I agree with that. Yeah, and earlier, when you're talking about novel incidents or like the really tough ones where you need that one subject matter expert to come in and be like to connect the dots that nobody else could connect, right? Do you, I don't want to use the word fear necessarily.

Are you concerned that increased adoption of AI tooling reduces gradually subject matter expertise? I'm definitely concerned about that. I think there's ways that it increases subject matter expertise. You know, I started Jelly before all of this, you know, was really happening. And in my honest vision for Jelly, was there is so much data and how you communicate

that you can learn what Adam's expertise is and what Jared's expertise is just by how they're talking, right? Like, oh, we notice we pull Adam in for every issue we have with this particular codebase. And so we start making this, like, map of Adam's expertise, and we can start to download how Adam knows what he knows and how he does what he does. Or doesn't.

Or doesn't. And making that, like, searchable. And so I always wanted to put AI in jelly, but it was, and then all of everything changed. And so I actually think it could really enhance subject matter expertise because it, it has a look into your whole organization. I think the challenge is with hallucination with that, right? Like, is it going to make up stuff that it's not actually seeing? and I also think that humans could stop trusting their own judgment at sometimes you know and I like I'll always test myself sometimes like if I feel like I'm personally using AI too much

I will ask it a question that I know I have a lot of expertise in just to see how it does you know and I feel like that helps me come back to earth sometimes just to make sure I'm staying grounded but I think you know we all have that personal responsibility but it's also you know it's it's going to change the way we talk to each other like I think a lot about the language aspects of it and you know I think about like kids that are probably learning with that now like how are they going to talk to each other in the workspace you know in a certain amount of time so anyway those are things that yeah yeah to that point there was a recent headline about changing in language. Yeah. And how chat GPT in particular is already affecting the way that we talk.

For instance, the word delve is like skyrocketing and use because it routinely says delve. Like let me delve into that for you. Yeah. And now more people are saying delve. This happens all the time in humanity. You hang out with people and you start to talk like those people and we're just hanging out with chat GPT. Right. And so we're going to start talking, you know, it's not just X, it's Y. It always says that too. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I've always loved using m-dashes, but I also find myself not using M-dashes. And I'm so upset about it because I've been using it for years. Me too.

Now I'm rethinking, like, are people going to think I wrote this with AI because I'm using an M-Dash? Right. So you purposely remove them. I purposely remove it. Because you don't want to look like this as AI-generator. Same. Yeah. Can we go into, I'm not sure how this manifests for you, but as a leader, it seems like maybe

you all have some tooling that lets you glimpse into someone's capabilities. I imagine that's a great tool as a leader because you want to spend one-on-ones with folks. Some of the team you know really well because you brought them with you from Jelly, but some you're bringing on and as a leader you want to know what their strengths

and weaknesses are. Do you have that kind of insight? Is that what you're talking about where you can sort of like probe into your team to say, okay, Jared's really good at this and Adam's really good at that. And you have the AI kind of like learn it for you and you can sort of prompt whatever it might be to learn more by your team. I haven't been using it for that perspective, but I do, you know, as I build out my org

and I'm interviewing folks right now and I've interviewed folks that are like really great and clearly experts in a certain position, but I'm also thinking about the expertise of the current team I have, right? And if like there's these four different areas I need expertise in with pricing, for example, if I already have someone in that bucket and I'm interviewing someone that also has the same expertise that's not going to maybe be valuable for me to hire that person even though they're great.

And so I do think that that could be helpful in terms of just like creating teams that work really well together and looking at where someone's strength is, right? Like I have someone on the pricing team that like loves to go into the data, right? like data expert but is not as like proactive with like you know talking to sales and talking to customers right and so like as I was looking for my next person I was like I really need someone that is like doing that in the organization I don't necessarily need them to be a deep expert in the data because I already have that and so you know but I know that just because I interact with my

team a lot I think if you are running a large org that that might be helpful. I also, I use granola, which is really, really great. I don't know if either of you use it. What is it called? Granola. Never heard of it. It's like, it's a note taker during meetings. And I have found that so fantastic, especially for one-on-ones. It just, you know, helps me remember them. It helps me actually be present so that I'm not having to like take notes during it. It prompts me of things to follow up on. And so I feel like it's, it's actually like made me a better manager because I'm able to be more present and recall more. How is, I hate to keep going to AI, man, but how is, I would have seen I hate to keep

talking about AI, kind of, but I'm curious how AI is helping you not hire or let go of people. But can you be candid about how it's shrinking or growing your teams? Yeah, I mean, I know I probably sound like a broken record, but I really think it takes over the tasks that people were probably doing manually that they didn't need to be doing, right? And so I think it increases roles in that it, like, is going to completely change certain jobs where someone's entire job was, you know, manual data entry.

I spend a lot of time in like Tableau and Periscope and unfortunately Excel now. And, you know, when I get stuck or break something, I actually use AI to help me fix my query. And that's been really nice for me in just terms of speed. Well, friends, it's all about faster builds. Teams with faster builds, ship faster, and win over the competition. It's just science. And I'm here with Kyle Galbraith, co-founder and CEO of Depot. Okay, so Kyle, based on the premise that most teams want faster builds, that's probably a truth.

If they're using CI provider for their stock configuration or get-up actions, are they wrong? Are they not getting the fastest builds possible? I would take it a step further and say if you're using any CI provider with just the basic things that they give you, which is if you think about a CI provider, it is in essence a lowest common denominator generic VM. And then you're left to your own devices to essentially configure that VM and configure your built pipeline, effectively pushing down to you the developer, the responsibility of optimizing and making those builds fast, making them fast, making them secure, making them

cost-effective, like all pushed down to you. The problem with modern-day CI providers is there's still a set of features and a set of capabilities that a CI provider could give a developer that makes their builds more performant out of the box, makes their builds more cost-effective out of the box, and more secure out of the box. I think a lot of folks adopt GitHub actions

for its ease of implementation and being close to where their source code already lives inside of GitHub. And they do care about build performance, and they do put in the work to optimize those builds. But fundamentally, CI providers today don't prioritize performance. Performance is not a top-level entity inside of generic CI providers. Yes. Okay, friends, save your time, get faster builds with Depot, Docker builds, faster get-up action runners, and distributed remote caching for Basil, Go, Gradle, Turbo, and more.

Depot is on a mission to give you back your dev time and help you get faster build times with a one-line code change. Learn more at depot.dev. Get started with a seven-day free trial. No credit card required. Again, depot.dev. What are you excited about or what are you interested in, whether industry or elsewise? What am I excited about? Well, she's golfing now. She's a golfer. Yeah, I just, I just, I've golfed twice. So, yeah, I think you're a golfer. I think I'm a golfer. know. Yeah, for sure. No impostors. And, you know, I was talking to Adam earlier. He was like, I mean, I just hit the ball. I don't really golf. You know, it's not a, you say,

I like really, really resonate with that. I can hit the ball and it feels good, right? So, but yeah, what am I interested in? You know, I'm really interested in, like, how linguistics are changing with AI and also just like more remote first cultures. Like, we really lean on text communication now more than ever, and I think things can easily be misinterpreted over text, which, like, actually can cause a lot of... That's a good response for people, like, in text, they're saying, like, sure. Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, or K, you know, and I'm like, what does he mean by sure?

I say that all the time. When I joined PagerDuty, everyone reacted with the AC emoji, which is, you know, a very engineering thing to do, but, you know, I had people that weren't in. engineering joined PagerDuty and they like thought people were mad at them because they're like reacting with the word act and slack and I'm like oh no they're not mad at you they're just like giving you a thumbs up you know and so they know there's a thumbs up emoji they could use what's that I said there is a thumbs up emoji they could use you're using the at ACK right which I think the history of that usage at PagerDuty is because you're acknowledging

acknowledging and alert. And so people are like, people, people use it internally more than I've ever seen at any other organization to just be like, okay, cool. But they're not upset about anything. And so anyway, I just, you know, I'm thinking a lot about how these nuances. We all have our own perspective of how to communicate and organize. And it really impacts the organization. It really impacts how products get shipped and developed. It impacts how incidents get resolved. And so I've been, you know, looking more into that lately. I've been following this guy on substack Adam Alexic. He's a linguistics graduate from Harvard,

and he's been, you know, really just analyzing how the world is, like, changing its communication. But I'm really interested in how that impacts organizations and how it impacts products. We are live before a studio audience. They are hearing this, but can you share what's on the horizon? What's something new for PagerDuty that you're not, that you're excited about that you can maybe tease a little bit

or just spill the beans on? Yeah, I mean, we are completely revamping our, I know this probably doesn't sound as exciting for folks, but it's very exciting to me. We're completely revamping our pricing and packaging so that, you know, you're not going to have to, like, worry about, seats as much as you do and it's a big transformation and it's really focused on value that we're providing and so you know that's that's the little teaser and then you know other

things I'm really excited about are our seeing how jelly evolves with in PagerDuty there are a lot of insights that we have in Jelly and combined with the insights of Pager duty, I think, can really drive change to that beginning of that incident cycle. And so I'm pretty stoked about that and how that can help, like, onboard new engineers and how it can help ramp other folks up, like maybe ramp up a junior SRE because they can see how someone solved the problem. And so I'm excited about how it might level people up and create. this new culture of engineering.

Yeah. Well, Nor, you are smart, kind, and fun to talk to, so we really appreciate you joining us. This has been really awesome. Thank you. Let's hear it for it, Nora Jones. Lord Jones. You want to do Q&A?

Yeah. So we were, was that? You want to do a little Q&A? Sure. Okay. We do have nine minutes, as I've been told. And he's correct. So, we also have a microphone right here.

and we have a little treat, key chains. So the stickers are out there free to have, but these key chains, these cost extra. To get a keychain, you have to come to this microphone and ask a thoughtful question for Nora. You can judge Nora whether it was a good question or not after you answer it. So if anybody has a question, please come up for a keychain.

Please say your name. Anything for the keychain, hey. I'm Nabil, so kind of have a two-part question, And it's about the acquisition, basically. So it sounds like a great match and everything, and so I imagine most people thought it made sense and everything. But I was just curious, from Jelly's side before the acquisition, you know, actually happened, were there people that were, you know, against it, you know,

and maybe what were their rationale for that? Were there people that were what? Were there people from Jelly that didn't want the acquisition to happen, that were against it? And then maybe after the acquisition, you know, if you're, you know, able to share that, like, was there a percentage that just kind of, you know, took their equity and left, you know, soon after or whatever? I'm just curious. Yeah. I mean, I'll answer that as best as I can, but I think all acquisitions have challenges that come up. I think overall it was a very positive experience, and I, you know, I actually was, I love reading research,

and I was actually reading a bunch of research on, like, what makes a successful acquisition, And a lot of the time, it's if the founder stays. And so I also was trying to really focus on being happy myself because I knew I was modeling that to my team and figuring out those ways. There were definitely people at the organization that hadn't worked at a large company before, and it just wasn't a fit for them, right?

And so they moved on, and that's totally okay. I think that, you know, that makes sense in those situations. And then I think there might have been some people that were initially like, oh, you know, like, there's always, like, when you're a 20-person company, you, like, it's a really cool energy that you can't replicate in a 1,200-person company. And so I think there was grief involved with it from everyone's perspective, including my own. You know, I've spent a lot of time, like, grieving, like, not being a founder anymore, and, you know, not being my baby. I think the hardest thing is when I see a problem, and I'm like, that is not my responsibility anymore. I'm just going to say my words and then move on.

But I think there were also some people that have been surprised by how much they like it that I think will probably stay at the organization for a long time. Next to Bill. Anything else? That's it. Thank you, sir. That was a good question.

Good question. Good catch. Oh. Too soon. And I thought you had it. James. Hi, folks. I'm James.

One of the things that we know from other industries, avionics, nuclear, the list goes on, is after each incident, there's a incentive to make the system more automated, more safe, and that reduces the average number of incidents, but it increases the worst incidents. How does PagerDuty think about proactively helping organizations, not just react to incidents, not just do their own thinking about incidents, but like instill knowledge about how to design systems, how to design their organizations to prevent the catastrophic ones. Yeah, it's a good question. And I don't think that the right approach after a gnarly incident is to set up automation. I think the right

approach organizationally after a gnarly incident is to talk about it a lot and try to figure out how it happened, not why it happened, but how. And have these productive conversations where we're all sharing our piece of how we thought things were supposed to happen so that we can learn from each other. And so we can learn about how this actually unfolded. I think until you have that understanding automation is going to cause, like, issues to your point. And so I've been a big believer in that for a while. When we were at Jelly, myself and Laura McGuire and Vanessa Huerta Grande, we wrote what we called the How We Guide, which stood for the How We Got Here Incident Analysis Guide, which is free online, but it talks about how to extract the most

learnings after incidents so that you're better prepared in the future. And, you know, I didn't mention this aspect of, like, right when I came in, but one of the most important things to me when I came in was that we were using jelly internally and also practicing what we were preaching. And so we use jelly for every single incident now, and we are looking at how we communicate during those incidents, which is driving what we do or do not change. I don't you know I think with some incidents like you you might not need an action item at the end of it it doesn't mean that you didn't learn from it but you the action that you take might be understanding your system more and so I think the best thing that we can do as page or duty is is model that for folks so that we can help them do it themselves thanks James I'm really here for the key chain because I have a toddler Thanks, James.

Yeah, you go, James. Is that Kendall? Hi, Nora, I'm Kendall. Hi. How long until you're twitchy and go do another thing? Say that one more time. How long until you get twitchy and go do another thing? And go do another company?

Yeah. Are you itching to leave and do something else? When will you get the itch? I mean, there's probably golden handcuffs, and there's probably like an appropriate answer, but I'm curious what you're actually thinking. I am having fun right now. I'm doing things that are challenging to me, and I had never thought I would be doing pricing,

but it is activating both parts of my brain that I really love to activate, which is like psychology and math. And it's like very much an art and not a science, which is what I really, that's where I really thrive and gravitate towards. So I think as long as I'm like learning and feeling like I'm adding value and feeling like I can make a difference, you know, I don't think I will get an itch. But, you know, I'm also playing with different technologies that I can't necessarily, like, always play with at work. And I, you know, I haven't found something that, like, really captures my interest enough yet.

But, yeah, I'm having a lot of fun. Thanks. Thanks, Kendall. You got three more. Gosh. Hi, I'm Jesse. You said your first customer at Jelly was an enterprise customer, and that's kind of rare. How did you get that?

Was that previous relationship or just cold outreach? Yeah, good question. So like I mentioned, I have been an engineer most of my career, and it was within the reliability community. So most of my network was in reliability. And so I was really building out in the open with people I knew. And I also previously worked for Netflix. I was working for a company that got acquired by Walmart.

And I was working for Slack. And so I really only knew enterprises. Like, you know, looking back, I thought it was kind of an accident, but it was like, oh, you know, I was designing for something I needed in my organizations. And so I think that's just how it happened. And, like, as we were building out in the open, we were looking for design partners, and we had slots for five. And I tried to get five very different types of customers because I wanted to figure out

who was finding the most value out of it. You know, we did one with, like, a startup, and it went horribly, actually. And then it went really well with this enterprise. And I remember, you know, talking to our investors about it, because, like, if you have an investor and you're telling them that the first customer, you're signing as an enterprise customer, they're going to try to talk you out of it because they don't think you're ready for it yet. And like it was, it was way more organic for me to build for enterprise rather than to build for startups. So, yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. I think

there's something to. Thank you very much that question. Yeah, thank you. Yes. Two more. Matt. You've talked passionately about a lot of the things for post-incidence. And my expectation is that there's knowledge transfer and communication is hard. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on where PagerDuty and the aspects that are implemented there integrate with things outside of PagerDuty to help facilitate better knowledge transfer and communication across different divisions within an organization. Because not everybody implements all the things that you expect.

And so I would like to know what your expectations might be for how an organization might better leverage the product to make that vision a lot more usable. So if I'm understanding your question correctly, like how can customers that are using PagerDuty best set it up so that they're creating a learning environment. Yeah, because these things are hard and how do you help leverage

making that easier? Yeah, so one of the things I really appreciate about PagerDuty is how they've developed their integration system. We don't expect customers to use us for everything

but we do you do get the most value out of it if you're connecting it to all the other tools that you're using. So there's over 700 integrations and you can also build your own. And I think that is the best way to get the value out of it because then we can understand all the signals that you might be seeing and really help you prioritize if something is a really urgent signal that deserves human attention versus not. That's where, you know, I think that's where I see set up go awry is when folks don't spend the time.

to set it up that way and then it just becomes more noisy than it needs to be. But if you are really taking a look at your overall company and being like, we use this product here, we use this product here and really connecting it to PagerDuty, it's going to be a lot more valuable of a system that is not just learning from all that, but it's also surfacing a lot of that to you as well. Do you see that as like a good way to interact or get that information to the parts outside of just the engineering and expose that understanding? Yeah, so, so. Can you restate that question, please?

Yeah, so the question was, do you see that just for engineering? Are you exposing it to everybody? So that is something that was always on my mind with jelly, is just like not keeping these learnings in a vacuum with just engineering. and it is challenging. It is like not an issue a tool can totally solve. It has to be a cultural change. It has to be an engineer going and talking to the person that launched a campaign and learning more about their world, right?

And I think we really try to facilitate that. Like we show you all the people that were involved in an incident, even people that were just lurking, right? Which can be really interesting sometimes. times like, hey, why did legal have bond alert, right? Go DM that legal person and ask that, like, hey, I'm just, you know,

re-evaluating this incident, I'd love to know what your interest was in it, right? And I think what we really try to provide with the platform is a way to make that less awkward because it's like you're just looking at the data. And the data points say that these different folks joined, so it's worthwhile

to talk to them to get this holistic view of what really happened. And so I think that's how we're really facilitating it. That's cool. Thank you, Matt. Next. Hi, my name's Jim.

I wanted to ask you, you've thought a lot about reliability. So who, when you were early in your career, did you, like, study and reference? Like, what's your Velvet Underground of reliability? You know, I really started, I actually started my career in hardware. I studied computer engineering, and I went directly to, home security and like smart home company it's terrifying having that as your first job as like a reliability person because if you mess up someone's house might get robbed so that was that was stressful and then I saw this job opening at an e-commerce company for a software engineer and I you know

that's not that wasn't technically my role right I was doing less web development and doing more hardware. But I looked at some of the traits that were needed. It was like a developer productivity and reliability role and I was like, you know, I do a bunch of this now. And so I just applied. And I joined the org and they were having incidents multiple times a day every day. They're, the company was growing so quickly that there wasn't even a place to do our incident reviews. So we used to do them in the hallway every morning. And it was like the hallway next to the bathroom. So people were going like in and out of it. It was bananas. And I was really trying to get creative. Like my boss at that point was like, do whatever you want. Like I don't care. Like we can

just try things. And I found what Netflix was doing, which was called chaos engineering. And I started reading a lot about it. And I was like, wow, this is like really, really interesting. Because there is a big organizational psychology to reliability too it's not something that can just be fixed by fixing code and so i started experimenting with it and i was really influenced by netflix i started actually i stumbled into the field guide for human error which is in the aviation space and so all of those things i think were really fundamental to my passion now and what I ended up following to learn more about it. And, you know, someone brought up other industries earlier. I also read post-incident reports from other industries as well because, you know,

I find it very fascinating and it is relevant a lot of the time, too. Thank you. Is your book still for sale? It's my what? Your book. Yes, it is. Yeah. Go by the book.

There you go. We'll link out to with the show notes. Let's hear it one more time. Nora Jones. No word, Jones, y'all. So I'm not here to shame you, but you definitely missed out. This was fun. This was live.

Live in front of people. A live show. I got to say, it was cool to do. And it was really cool for those out there who came. We're so thankful to everyone who came to the meetup the night before, to the live show that day. And then the hike. Yes, we did a hike at Dinosaur Trail. It was so cool.

Saw dinosaur tracks. Saw a beautiful view of the show. the Red Rocks. Red Rock Amphitheater. So cool. And I want to take this time to thank everyone involved. Of course, Jared Santo behind the scenes, making this entire event happen. All the details, all the planning. Jared. He rocks. Gerhard and Jared, of course, on all the work around Pipely integration, James, Nabil, Matt, and many others pouring into this code base. because of course it's open source GitHub.com

slash the change log slash pipley check it out so we can finally have full control over our own CDN built on the Fly network and that leads me to Fly

big thanks to our friends at Fly for supporting this podcast for supporting our platform for giving us the opportunity to build on the greatest most revolutionary platform to build on today

fly.io and of course to the beat freak in residence breakmaster cylinder okay so if you love the beats that we produce breakmaster cylinder is behind all those beats of course it's collaboration but the art is done by breakmaster and and a live show from breakmaster at our live show oh my gosh i was behind the scenes i was almost in tears with joy it was so cool breakmaster cylinder we We love you. Of course, Jason and Aaron behind the scenes, helping us shoot all this footage, edit all of our podcasts. We have an amazing crew. And Jared and I, we're so thankful. And to you, the listener, without you, we are just an MP3 on the internet. And that's not cool. What's cool is you listening to this show. Okay, that's it. This show's done. This live show is done. We'll see you on Friday. Game on