The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - Maintainer week! (Interview)

Episode Date: May 28, 2021

This week is all about Maintainer Week — it's a week long event starting June 7th for open source maintainers to gather, share, and be celebrated. We're joined by Josh Simmons (Ecosystem Strategy Lead at Tidelift & President of Open Source Initiative) and Kara Sowles (Senior Open Source Program Manager at GitHub). Of course we love open source maintainers, that's why we're so excited about Maintainer Week and making it an annual thing. Today we talk through all the details of this event, what we can expect for this year and the years to come.

This week on the ChangeLog is all about Maintainer Week. It's a week-long event starting June 7th for open-source maintainers to gather, share, and be celebrated. Today we're joined by Josh Simmons, Ecosystem Strategy Lead at Tidelift, and President of the Open Source Initiative, and Kara Soles, Senior Open Source Program Manager at GitHub. Of course, we love open-source maintainers. That's why we're so excited about Maintainer Week and making it an annual thing. Today we talk through all the details of this event, what we can expect for this year, and the years to come.

Big thanks to our partners Fastly, LaunchDarkly, and Linode. Our bandwidth is provided by Fastly. Learn more at Fastly.com. Get your feature flags powered by LaunchDarkly. Check them out at LaunchDarkly.com. And we love Linode. They keep it fast and simple. Check them out at Leno.com slash changelog. This episode is brought to you by Leno. Gone are the days when Amazon Web Services was the only cloud provider in town. Leno stands tall to offer cloud computing developers trust, easily deploy cloud compute, storage, and networking in seconds

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leno.com slash changelog. So we're here talking about maintainers. Maintain a week with Josh Simmons and Kara Soles. So what's the big deal here? Like, Josh, I know we've talked with you being a Tidelift now, previously OSI, still involved in OSI, I think. You can probably tell more about that. But I think the story here might be, like, how did you and Kara connect to make maintain a week? Like, what's the story? I love this story.

Okay. So, Kara, correct me if I'm wrong, but we met first about seven years ago at Linux Fest Northwest. I was attending my first conference traveling solo representing O'Reilly, who was a community manager there at the time. Kara was at Puppet. That would have been my first time giving a talk at a conference as well. So that was like, it's kind of a big deal conference for both of us. We connected and we're both weird. And so we've been professional BFFs ever since. Professional BFFs. We did a bunch of work together also like in kind early 2015, 2016, when meetups, I think, were kind of emerging more as a tech strategy that you could do en masse. So we did a lot of conversations around that and sort of strategizing around that from the community management perspective.

So we had worked together on that. And fast forward to maybe three months ago, something like that, Kara reaches out, sends me a DM on Twitter and says, hey, I've got this thing I'm working on, would love to have OSI involved. I think there's a spot for Tidelift to be involved as well. At that point, you know, yeah, it was a few months into planning, very early planning, but planning this maintainer event, keeping a really tight focus on specifically maintainers. And it was something that we've been wanting to do for a while. So obviously, I reached out to Josh to get him involved. So when she did reach out, you know, funny thing is, is that Tidelift had also been planning a conference, very similar themes, exact same week. In fact, I think we had the same dates.

We did. The same dates. Yeah. So I was thrilled to get that message from kara to me that was like extremely validating like okay we're on the same wave like clearly there's a need for us to host this kind of thing and yeah so we took that discovery and figured out how to coexist and put on something that's bigger than any of the one events that either of us were playing right it wasn't originally maintained a week right so like github had their own thing and put on something that's bigger than any of the one events that either of us were planning. Right. It wasn't originally maintain a week, right? So like GitHub had their own thing here.

I didn't say, you know, what your role is at GitHub or even that you're at GitHub yet. So please share your role and what you do at GitHub. But you all had your own plans. It wasn't maintain a week, or was it? It was. So like on the GitHub side, my intention was to do maintain a week. We'd had a lot of discussions.

Should we do a month? Should we do a week? So I was hoping that intention was to do maintainer week. We'd had a lot of discussions. Should we do a month? Should we do a week? So I was hoping that other folks would do events that week. So for us, it was a big win. Like, oh, cool. Tidelift started planning something. Tidelift was looking at, correct me, Josh, doing a month. Wow.

Ambitious. We were looking at a month. And, you know, once we talked that through, we decided maybe a month was ambitious is exactly the right word. Maybe not for our first year. Right. So we hadn't talked in years, but we were magically on the exact same wavelength. I think if we didn't know each other so well, it would have been a time to panic.

Like, are you kidding me? Someone else is planning the same event on the same day with the same concept. But instead, we were both really honestly energized by it. Yeah. I think, Josh, we had a conversation before you and kara connected on it i can't recall but i think we had a whole separate conversation and then you came back with this whole new spin on it i'm like okay this is there's a lot of life here he's got new energy maybe because he had a cohort or a buddy to sort of like ping off of or whatever

just the enthusiasm of github obviously towards maintainers but like we had a meeting yeah i was excited about it but then you came back again after talking to Kara and Maintainer Week and all this fun stuff. Like, okay, things have gotten bigger now. So let's blow up a show on this and let's do some fun things around it and let's share this bigger story. So that was kind of fun.

Yeah. So for folks listening, can we dive in a little bit, at least, to the Maintainer Week concept? Please, yeah. Yeah, so the week of June 7th, we're calling Maintainer Week. Keeping the name yeah. Yeah, so the week of June 7th, we're calling Maintainer Week. Keeping the name basic for now, you got to forgive us,

but I think it gets the concept across. I think it's a good time to kind of put a sticky note reminder to say, like, let's get together, talk about open source maintenance, talk about the maintainers that make this whole ecosystem possible. It's something that I know

is really important to a lot of folks, but it always helps to have a moment to kind of talk about it all together. So we'll talk more about this, but GitHub's running an event, of course, Tidelift's running an event, but other folks are also going to be involved. So if you're listening to this and you want to host something that week, whether it's like you put out a blog post, whether it's a podcast like this, whether it's like, hey, I'm getting a bunch of folks together and having a conversation, really encourage you to. There's a whole site as well. We can point you to a repo where you can list it there so other folks can find it and check it out.

Yeah, github.com slash github, obviously, slash maintainer week is the repo I think you're talking about. On the basicness, I suppose, of maintainer week, I have to compare this as opposed to the enthusiasm around shark week like people get really excited about shark week and it's been going for a long time i don't know if it's a decade or more but it's a long time and it's a big deal i mean everybody gets excited about shark why wouldn't you also get excited about maintain a week right there's a lot of similarities there too because sharks actually kill very few people and maintainers also kill very very few i think what you're right we could kind of build up that suspense you know

will they kill will they want will they not kill sure okay another crossover i heard you guys talking about was i think it's confirmed on there will be a megalodon at maintainer week i think that's confirmed right josh can you confirm that we'll have a Megalodon at Maintainer Week. I think that's confirmed, right? Josh, can you confirm that? We'll have a Megalodon? Okay. Their agent just signed. Either the monster truck or the actual animal itself. Or I guess in this case, what is it?

It's not a fish, right? It's a mammal. Is a shark a mammal? No. No. Aren't sharks a fish, right? Whales are mammals. Sharks are fish?

Sharks are fish. I'm guessing. It was a question. Well, you know, I always get confused because you've got whales. Those are mammals, right? But then sharks are similar size. They guessing. It was a question. Well, you know, I always get confused because you've got whales. Those are mammals, right? But then sharks are similar size. They're all very ferocious. Sharks lay eggs, don't they?

They do lay eggs. No. No? They just push them right out. They have babies? Wait, actually, it's because mammals do live birth. Right, that's why I'm asking. That's why I'm asking.

Yeah. I'm actually stalling while I Google the answer. Keep going. Keep going. Google faster. We're embarrassing ourselves. I'm actually stalling while I Google the answer. Keep going, keep going. Google faster. We're embarrassing ourselves. I can't Google and talk at the same time. We're trying to cultivate around maintainer week.

Precisely. Where do they come from? Do maintainers come from eggs? Eggs acts? There's a lot to explore there. What makes a maintainer a maintainer? When did they call themselves a maintainer? What is a necessary contribution to be a maintainer?

Is it simply code? Is it documentation? Is it community involvement? Is it wrangling sponsors? Is it all the things that makes the ecosystem, I suppose, thrive and sustain, right? Exactly. All the things, right? But on a slightly more serious note, though, with this, I like the idea that you're inviting the community to be involved.

And it isn't just a GitHub thing or it isn't just a Tidelift thing. That it's a let's put the emphasis on the importance of maintaining and creating open source software. Right. And keeping it thriving, keep it sustaining, you know, bringing in other members of the community. I like that aspect of it because that seems more giving rather than taking. And I think that's a good perspective for Maintain a Week. What did you find, Jared? So I have confirmation that sharks are fish. They are not mammals.

But as I read this article, I'm starting to wonder if this is a worthy source let me grab one more let me back it up one more time because this one's active wild.com sorry active wild you looked a little bit fishy oh not intended but very much enjoyed um they do give live birth like like you said but they don't feed them via breastfeeding or something. Huh. We've really got to. You're learning. Somebody else can do this. I'm still going to stick with it. Okay.

Second site also says the same thing. I'm thinking they're fish, not mammals. Wow. Biology. I'm clearly no Bill Nye Science guy, nor am I Steve Irwin. What were we talking about? At least on Wikipedia, they're talking about the differences between their digestive systems. And it says one of the biggest differences between the digestive system of a shark and a mammal is that sharks have much shorter intestines.

So maybe somebody out there has got to know this stuff. Come on. Tell us. That's a great point, Adam, about how do we nurture, feed, and sustain our open source maintainers? Precisely. That was, yeah, exactly what I was thinking. Precisely. We ask the big questions around here.

You know, we're so stuck on this. I really think they're definitely similar to mammals. That's for sure. Well, I was a little mind blown because I was reading about mammals and laying eggs, as I said earlier. But apparently the platypus does lay eggs and is a mammal. So it breaks all taxonomies. Same with the echidna, actually.

Echidna does it too. Science is hard. You know what else is hard? Maintaining open source software. True that. Very true. Which is why we're getting everybody together to talk about it. What are the kind of things, can we focus in on one of these two events and what's going to be going on? Who's going to be there? Why would I go? How do I go?

Because it seems like our audience is keen on supporting open source maintainers. Many of them are maintainers. It's like a huge topic of conversation for us. So we don't need to give them the hard sell. They probably stopped listening with the shark talk. We still have them. We can tell them. So let's start with you, Josh. Tell us about the event you're all putting on. Yeah, sure. So upstream, one day event, we're trying to do two things. So for Upstream, we're really trying to center maintainers, but maintainers are not the audience for Upstream,

is the first thing that I will say. We have like two tracks. One track is like kind of corporate open source people at the top of their game, looking at how we got to where we are, what are our best practices now, what are the challenges we're still facing and how do we address them? Then what are the deeper systemic issues that we have that we still need to figure out as an industry with the idea that hopefully everybody who attends

comes away with a more nuanced understanding of open source and a sense of like, Hey, these are the things that our organizations need to do to make this ecosystem work for everybody. So that's like one side of the house is sort of the corporate open source side. The other side is where to put it frankly, the way that I've described it is like we're giving maintainers a soapbox because Tidelift is bringing together a largely an audience of downstream users to its conference upstream. And we want to really make sure that, you know, what is the pain that maintainers are feeling?

What are the frustrations that they have? I've got some guesses. I've got some thoughts. But I would really rather just give them a platform to speak directly to their downstream users and have it be a place where, like, you know what? It's expected that you're going to be pontificating. It's expected that you might be griping a bit or asking other stakeholders to step up in ways that you haven't seen them in the past. That can be therapeutic for some people. I bet, yeah. I'm hoping.

And I think that fits so well, too, with Tidelift's goals around making it easier for folks to support open source maintainers. So I love that theme of folks coming and really finding out what it's like and how they can support these people. I've got to imagine it strikes a lot of empathy options for people too because if you're talking to those, essentially your users, who use your software and may not even know your name, that maintaining the thing is even a thing, that there's many ways to support, not just financially,

but community you know, community wise, maybe donating some workforce to some of the project if necessary, or maybe striking, but, you know, doing some local community stuff in your area or in your neck of the woods, maybe it's finance, maybe it's, you know, a different sector, so to speak, but like somehow, you know, striking that empathy note, which is very difficult for maintainers to sort of get that soapbox that you said, right? To speak to them directly. You know, I've been involved in conferences a lot. And in many places, if a maintainer were to give that talk, it might be considered a little gauche or self-serving. But that's what we want. Maintainers are carrying so much weight for all of us. And damn, we need to do better by them.

So I'm eager to let them hold court and tell us what they need. Nice. So that's Monday, June 7th, followed by GitHub's event, Global Maintainer Summit, which is the next two days. Kara, talk about that one.

Yeah. So for us, the audience is maintainers. The speakers are maintainers. It's a very tight focus there. We like to think of this one as sort of group therapy, where you come together and chat with your peers about what you're all facing. Obviously, a lot of folks are dealing with similar problems, similar stressors, and I think don't have enough opportunity to kind of talk with folks who are seeing the same

niche issues. We're kind of going at it with the approach that folks don't necessarily need to find similar solutions, especially they don't need to find similar technical solutions, since projects differ a lot, but they often have similar problems. And we can kind of define those together and work through at least how we approach that. So yeah, that'll be the eighth and the ninth. We'll have a variety of talks, but we'll also have some smaller conversations. We're going to be using Gather Town, which is a spatial chat. I don't know if you've seen it. It's kind of like a little 8-bit aesthetic. You're a little character with spatial chat. Whoever you're

closest to, you can kind of hear what they're saying. So it has that feeling of a hallway track. You can have more private conversations. You can drop in on other folks' chats. We figure that, you know, I'm at least kind of tired of the Zoom chat. It's just a bunch of people. So we're trying this out for folks that kind of connect. I think it's interesting to bring that kind of hallway track theme to it because people miss that. And I never heard of Gather Time being used at a conference like this. So I'm excited to see what that kind of fruits that bear. Me too. One of the things that I'm really excited for the Global Maintainer Summit about is the way that it's creating a space for people to compare notes

across ecosystems, across different types of projects. There have been really great efforts in the past to bring maintainers together. But we just don't see like, we really don't see much of a through line. Those efforts have come and gone installed and maybe gone on pause. And the challenges we're facing are such that like, we really just need to keep that cross pollination going. So I'm so excited to see what we all learn there. Yeah. That's a good point, Josh, about kind of other related stuff. A lot of folks have asked me, how is this similar or different from Maintainerati? Right. For those who might remember, Maintainerati was an ongoing event, bringing maintainers together to have these really important conversations. It was something

GitHub's been really involved in each year. And the last one of those would be, I think, Berlin 2019, where a few hundred folks got together to have really that quality unconference conversation. And I think that that is the ideal method for folks in a specialized role like this to talk to each other. Nothing beats open spaces. Nothing beats defining your own topics and having those connections. So when we looked at doing this event this year, everything's virtual. It's not possible. And so what was the second best knowing that we couldn't do something like that in person? So that's why this is a different model from Maintainerati. I know that the Maintainerati board plans to still do stuff in the future when we're back in person, but this is kind of the compromise space. But we're going to reach

a lot more folks. So we're hoping that that's going this is kind of the compromise space. But we're going to reach a lot more folks. So we're hoping that that's going to be a good trade-off. In the spirit of acknowledging our inspiration and our fellow travelers thematically, I also want to shout out to Open Collective and Sustain Open Source. Sustain OSS is sort of an unconference in a community that's been going on for a few years. I think First Host is in, I want to say 2017, something like that in San Francisco. They've had four or five events now.

And it's such a totally like organized as an unconference. And it's just such a incredible community to bring together to talk about like systemic is like my word of the day. Clearly, these like deep systemic issues that we have in open source and to really think critically about them and question our assumptions about open source and have those big conversations. And so Sustain, I just want to give a shout out because that's very much an inspiration

for what we're trying to do here. Somewhere between Sustain, where we're being super aspirational and critically examining things, somewhere between that and say an OSCON or an all things open where we're also trying to make sure that attendees leave with some tangible value like, oh, hey, I can do this thing now to make things better. I think both of these events are kind of in a compromise space, both upstream and global maintainer summit. I don't think either of us would want to run a virtual event if we had the option to run an in-person event.

But we don't right now. So Stan was an awesome conference. Jared, you were at the first one. You want to speak to some of the things, like similarities, like what you liked from that? Mostly the like, not dislike. So what was the fan favorite from that? I know you met a lot of people we're still connected to there. Yeah, absolutely. The connections are always the best part about those things. And Sustain was, especially the first one, was a very small event, probably 100 people maybe.

Yeah, very small. And a lot of ideation, a lot of safe places to let your gripes out if you got them. It was a lot of fun. The challenge, like you all said, is that we're only virtual right now and you know those connections are just harder to make via zoom this gather town thing is very cool i haven't seen it for those who haven't it kind of has like this uh top down secret of mana or zelda like circa a link to the past aesthetic which is is like super rad. And I'd be interested to participate and just see if this gives you some of that serendipity, some of that opportunity to connect in ways that we haven't been able to as of late. I think one of the defining things about events like that is

the ability to be vulnerable, to say things you might not say on a larger Zoom call, and to acknowledge, you know, things that are more difficult. And so a big part of our goal with the Global Medianer Summit is how do we bring that vulnerability back, even though it's a virtual event? So a lot of the speakers are going to be, I think, opening up a bit more, and we're going to try to keep that, I guess, a place that's kind of safe to have those conversations. Whether or not we'll accomplish that with a virtual event, you folks let us know afterwards. This episode is brought to you by our friends at LaunchDarkly, feature management for the modern enterprise, power testing in production at any scale. Here's how it works.

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update the flag status and the changes are made instantaneously by the real-time streaming architecture. Eliminate risk, deliver value, get started for free today at LaunchDarkly.com. Again, LaunchDarkly.com. So we have the two of you magically coming together co-planning without even knowing you're co-planning the same kind of thing on the same day turning into maintainer week multiple events lots going on but why why were you planning these things let's start with cara you are at github tell us what you do at GitHub. Why is Maintainers on your mind? Why do you think Maintainer Week is something worth doing?

What's your role there, and what's the day job look like? Yeah, so I'm on the developer relations team. We're super focused on making sure that folks are getting everything they can out of the platform and understand how to use GitHub best. So specifically for me, I'm open source programs manager. So I maintain contact with kind of large open source projects, chat with maintainers on a regular basis and check in and see what they need. Make sure that people have someone to talk to when they have any kind of an issue.

We do a lot of letting folks know about new features that we think would be specifically good for their projects. And then we also invite a fair amount of maintainers to certain sort of beta releases that we are really curious for their feedback on. I think that's really important. I mean, on any platform, right, that you're staying in close contact with the folks who are using it, making sure to incorporate that feedback every step of the way. Yeah. How does that play out with the contact? Like, is it where you have small chit chat with maintainers? Do you like really have deep relationships, like

catching up, knowing their kids, knowing their friends? Like how deep does it go? Or is it pretty, yeah, I need more money or I need this. Like how does that exchange play out? Give us an example. Yeah, that's a good question. So most of it is checking in. We'll do a video call every couple months with a number of the projects, or they'll just reach out when they're having issues. And it's nice to just check in and see how things are going. So that stays kind of GitHub-focused.

But over time, I think we're really getting to know each other, and that's part of developer relations, is the kind of joy of building those connections. It's just, I feel so fortunate to be working in this area of the industry at all, because yeah, you get closer and closer to people. I'm going to guess this is the same for all of you folks, but the thing that's been hardest on the professional front about working virtually is not having that time to really bond with people at conferences that absence has been deeply painful how do folks get on your radar is it squeaky wheel gets the oil kind of thing

like if i'm a maintainer and i'm like i would love to have kara or somebody at github that i could as a sounding board or questions or ideas or whatever how does that play out like how do i reach you yeah it's a mix. We do outreach. Folks reach out to us. So if you want to chat with me, you can email opensource at github.com. Pretty easy. And you're always welcome to send an email through there. Let us know how stuff's going.

Stuff like that. There you go. Or you could come to the Maintainer Summit. Talk with us there. There you go. But I want to be really clear, right? The Global Maintainer Summit isn't about the GitHub platform. It's not about us.

Like that's, I know, a big theme with Josh and I have talked a lot about with this week is that it's not. It's not about either company. It's about the community in general. Yeah. I think when we commiserated on what we missed in terms of OSCON and Maintainer Rider,

the difference is the least in some ways. And we missed that. We need something where it's like, we even talked about that before, Josh and Kara, like we attended OzCon each year. I know Jared and I did. And it was like, and we really look forward to that time frame. And I think, Jared, you were there one time when somebody just came up and gave me a big old hug. And I was just like,

I don't even know the person. He's this big burly dude. And I'm like, oh, thanks for the big hug. And I give him a hug back. It's just like, you don't even know the person. He's this big burly dude. And I'm like, oh, thanks for the big hug. And I give him a hug back. He's just like, you don't get that virtually. You know, you just don't get it. It's just literally impossible. And I used that literally right, Jared. You did.

So he always gets on my mind. I use it literally, figuratively. So anyways. That's where we did so much of our connection, Josh, is yeah. Community Leadership Summit attached to OzCon. I mean, I feel like I learned my craft there. Yeah, likewise. Even some of the shared speakers, we'll probably talk about some favorite talks,

but Hongfu Dang, I think we talked to her about a lot of stuff going on in Asia with open source, FOSS Asia. That was fun. We would have never met her if we didn't go physically to OzCon and meet her. And that was cool. We didn't know because we just don't have that connection to like what's happening in open source that big in a whole different country. We just didn't have that connection. And because of being at a conference like that or having that kind of space, we were able to. To your point, Adam, there's a word you

use that's one of my favorite words is serendipity, right? When you're at a conference, there are opportunities for serendipity, for stumbling into connections that you wouldn't anticipate. And I guess technically you could get that at a virtual events too, but it just, there's both like the opportunity for those unexpected connections, but also is there really an opportunity to take those connections offline and turn that like, oh, this is cool. There's a spark here into like a three hour or six hour conversation. And that was what I loved about the hallway track is like, okay, I didn't expect to be spending my afternoon this way, but this is exactly where I need to be building this relationship with this person, learning about what they're doing, what

their world is like. I just miss that so much. That is the most edifying, most joyful part of the work, I think. And I've, I gotta say, I thought, you know, as someone who primarily works online, I thought that perhaps I had developed a skill set where I was good at maintaining relationships online. But the, the elimination of in-person conferences has set the record straight. Turns out, I really struggle to maintain relationships without that in-person forcing function. I look forward to the return. Yeah. Yeah.

At a certain point, I had burned out on all the travel pretty badly. And I had to take kind of a break from tech for a period there and come back. And it was. It was specifically like that fast pace of constantly being on the road but now i'm like please throw me out the door send me anywhere like it hurts i have this this emptiness not seeing all these folks yeah well i just got the email yesterday from all things open 2021 i think it's october and it's going to be irl with a virtual component and then there was kind of a disclaimer like unless things change so you know october this year yes in north carolina

is where all things open are so there's uh a lot of sympathy for event organizers yeah so one of the other hats i wear is i'm a co-organizer of North Bay Python. We live in fire country, and two out of the last three conferences, we found ourselves just barely dodging fires. At the last one, the fires were so intense. We were a week out from the conference, and we were both planning how to go forward with the conference as well as how we would cancel the conference if push came to shove. And I know for us that was really difficult, but it would have been far more difficult if we were one of those larger conferences where they've got multi-year contracts with the venues. They've got insurance that will only cover their losses if, for instance, it's a mandate and rather than just sort of a voluntary, okay, it's not safe to hold an event. And across the US, right,

the rules are so different. I think a lot of event organizers have been planning to go in person, whether or not they want to, almost because that's kind of what the insurance environment like requires of them. You know, I don't know that you can run an event equitably in person this year in the united states on the other hand like i also just don't blame organizers because i think some of them are really trapped within difficult constraints yeah there's a lot of factors and there's a lot of opinions on is it too soon not too soon and i think we'll wait and see i guess the virtual component what is that going to look like? I think what we've learned this last year, of course, is like virtual alone over the long run is not enough,

but it is so valuable because of access that maybe it should always be a component moving forward. Like maybe a hybrid is always going to be what happens from here. I mean, as event organizers yourselves, you probably put more thoughts into these things than I have. I'm just over there getting emails and wondering what's going to be what happens from here. I mean, as event organizers yourselves, you probably put more thoughts into these things than I have. I'm just over there getting emails and wondering what's going to happen next. We tried that.

I was a puppet for a long time, and we planned out actually a joint event like that in, I don't know, 2016, 2017. Time is weird. Where we said, okay, we're doing an event simultaneously, three different locations, like totally different geos, different time zones, and we're going to stream it back to back.

So you could see the entire event live, but each one kind of had its own location. Did it work? And that was a lot of work. Sounds like hard mode. Yeah. Jeez. Like, oh, we'll just plan three conferences and then also stream all three of them and do a full streaming experience.

Right, because one isn't hard enough. And it was early. I mean, we were just a little too early to that format. It went well, but no one was ready. So when COVID hit, at least it helped being like, okay, we've tried that out. We're comfortable with that format. We know that we're going to get more toward that as things come back in person. Yeah. I almost wonder if the culture of streaming has an impact this too,

because as a participant, you almost don't even really care about the live to some degree, except for if you really want that in-person touch point. Not everybody does. So as a, an inclusive thing of like, you know, of just preferences really,

it's like some prefer to be real time live and watch every talk. Some prefer to just like, Hey, thanks for putting me on your list. Let me know when the talks are up and I'll watch them when I feel like it. And that's cool too. Like it's, it's really about the ways that humans consume content. And I think it's just so varied. Not everybody has the same consumption styles or tastes or even bandwidth. Like they might just watch one talk from the conference and get enough out of it and move along. They got the necessary sentiment from the theme or whatever it might have been or their favorite person.

Like it's just so different now. Yeah, we're finally getting the kind of broad spread, like you said, of experiences that we need from a neurodiversity standpoint, which people have been asking for for years. And I hope that we keep that. I think we've seen a lot of experimentation over the last few years, especially during the pandemic, because we've had to experiment. I don't know that I've seen what a good hybrid solution looks like yet. A good hybrid solution that works for the event organizers as well as the participants, right? Because that's a huge lift. But the goal, I think, and I correct my

from wrong, but I think, you know, as event organizers, access is a huge priority. Yeah. Because events have a multiplier effect on our culture and on people's careers. And so if we don't run events that are accessible, then we are either entrenching the status quo. I don't think it's controversial to say that the status quo within open source demographically is pretty disappointing. So either we can make our events a tool in entrenching that status quo, or we can keep our eye on access and make sure that we're helping to get us to a world in which our communities are actually representative

of the world around us. So I think access is a really key word there. And I'll be curious to see what events look like in the next few years. Because I know, I don't think anyone wants to go back to less access. But also, a lot of us really want to get back in person. We do want to gather, though, don't we? The idea of hybrid really comes home then because I think you have a lot of people who are going to remain like habits.

This is a new habit, living in this kind of fear or this world or this threat, so to speak, especially as you have COVID changing and a lot of things happening right now in India. There's just a lot of unknowns with the coronavirus and how it's going to stay or be eradicated if ever. I think they say it's here forever, pretty much. So I was like, this is a new normal to have some, if not all people threatened by it. And the need for like this hybrid approach to mission, Josh, where it's like in-person is necessary and then access is also necessary. So people who cannot or do not want to participate face-to-face,

you've got to have access. We're kind of getting into the weeds of specifically running a conference, but I'm curious what you mean by access specifically. Is it price? Is it geographic availability? Is it language access? This really puts a lot on an event organizer's plate. Before, it was a little easy. Like, hey, good branding, good website, good theme, great at networking, throw an event, come here, right? Be able to book hotels. I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot of stuff. I'm not trying to diminish by any means what it takes, but a lot easier than like this Harvard approach where you've got all these other concerns now later on to what was, you know, a pretty achievable workflow and job to do to be an event organizer. Now it's just so much more complex considering.

The stakes have definitely risen for what is expected of an event organizer. I was a meetup organizer for years before I got into community management. And heck, that's why Kara and I connected in the first place. And I look back on my days as a meetup organizer. And sometimes, on the one hand, I have compassion for myself. I didn't know what I didn't know. But on the other hand, there were a lot of things that I just really didn't invest in with the community building efforts and the event hosting and planning that I was doing that, whether I knew it or not at

the time, excluded some people. And so I think it does add a lot for event organizers, because not only do we need to host an event that is valuable for people, but we need to recognize that when we bring people together, we have a duty of care for them. And so we need to make sure that it's a safe environment, hopefully a welcoming one too. I mean, if an event's not welcoming, what are we doing? Kind of gets the point. Right, exactly. So when I say access, I think like really broadly. I think about the price point. I think about the geography.

I think about the scholarship or opportunity grant programs to make sure that people can get there who maybe couldn't afford it otherwise. And the key is just making sure that people can get there and that they're not excluded because either they lack the funding or they happen to use a wheelchair or what have you. So access, I define extremely broadly. And I think we've seen a lot of progress. With North Bay Python, that was the first conference I ran and that was like in a nonprofit setting. And we got to build it from the ground up.

And so we got to really incorporate a lot of the best practices that we've learned in community organizing and event planning. And we gave a talk at PyCon US a few years ago about this. I keep mentioning North Day Python. It is a tiny, tiny conference for like maybe a couple hundred people with a budget that's like less than $50,000. And yet we actually were able to pull off an event that was extremely accessible. And so I know that on the one hand, we are asking more of event organizers, but I know it's doable.

These lessons are out there. People are happy to help too. This episode is brought to you by CloudZero. They help teams monitor, control, and predict their cloud spend. And I talk with Ben Johnson, co-founder and CTO at Obsidian Security. They get tremendous value from using Cloud Zero. Ben shared with me the challenges they face driving innovation and customer value while also trying to control and understand their Amazon Web Services spend. We want our engineers to move fast, to innovate, and to really focus on driving customer value. Yet at the same time, reality is we have to pay for cloud compute and storage. And the challenge around AWS is often

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when you actually see the costs drop, and do all that without a whole lot of investment of your own time. All right. If your organization shares similar struggles as Ben and Obsidian Security, check out CloudZero today. Learn more and get a demo at cloudzero.com slash changelog. Again, cloudzero.com slash changelog. So Josh, we heard about Kara's role at GitHub and we heard about your event planning exploits.

We haven't heard much about what you do at Tidelift and what it even means to be the president of the Open Source Initiative. Sounds awesome, but is that like a big deal or what do you do at the Open Source Initiative? Well, I am so glad you asked. The Open Source Initiative, being president of the board of OSI is, it's a hell of a responsibility. I joined the board of OSI five years ago. I'm entering my sixth year on the board. And after serving as a vice president and as a treasurer, as this, that, and the other, I was the last person standing with all the institutional knowledge. So landed myself in the president's seat. And OSI is like such a fundamental piece of infrastructure for everything that we care about here, whether or not it's acknowledged or not. And it's just a

really, really interesting time to be at OSI. YouI. The last couple of years, we've seen a lot of relicensing and let's just say the landscape of open source licensing is a very interesting space right now. So I feel a great deal of responsibility as president of the board there to lead the organization through that time, but then also help evolve the organization so that it is a more effective advocate going into the future. OSI has been

largely volunteer driven for a long time, and we're trying to shift it to be a staff driven organization with volunteer supervision so that it continues to be representative of community values and evolves with the community as our values evolve. But that ultimately the work gets done by staff so that it can be responsive and get things done. Because suffice it to say, getting things done through a committee of volunteers, not effective or efficient. Tidelift. So I joined Tidelift at the start of this year after being a huge fan since the inception of the company.

Tidelift's all about paying maintainers, getting money from enterprise subscribers, passing that on to the maintainers who do the work for their projects. And I'm on the Lifter engagement and success team. Lifter is what we call the maintainers who work with us, just to make the metaphor explicit, rising tide lifts all ships, right? I like it. I like it. There it is. Lifters. Thank you. I needed that. Yeah. So, you know, I'm five months into the job and really my focus so far has primarily been on putting Upstream together. But as somebody who has been sort of a meta community manager for a number of years and just has a lot of relationships in the nonprofit ecosystem around open source, my day job at

Tidelift is really to find like, what are the novel partnerships and opportunities that are out there? What are different ways that we can arrange ourselves so that we are all aligned, moving forward toward a world in which open source like really works for everybody and isn't just this kind of pool of free labor for a bunch of companies who are grateful for the labor, but then maybe don't contribute upstream. Yeah. So both of you have maintainers on the mind and maintainers, you know, on your Twitter and on your email and in your events. So what's the pulse? What's going on with maintainers today? Here we are, middle 2021 or Q2 2021.

Things change. Money's always a part of what's going on. But what are maintainer problems now? What are they feeling? What are they thinking? What are they telling you? Where are the challenges? Where are the things that are getting better,

things that are getting worse? What's that look like out there today? It's tough. It's a tough time to be a maintainer. It really always has been. What was it? Seven years ago when Heartbleed sort of shook a lot of us and woke us up to the plight of maintainers, but really only through the lens of corporate needs. Since then, there's been a lot of ink spilled on the challenges that maintainers face. Funding is absolutely part of it? A lot of maintainers feel like they put in a lot of work and they don't necessarily get commensurate value for the

work they're putting in. But a lot of people contribute to open source or maintain a project, not necessarily because they're looking to get paid, but this expectation that working in open source is uncompensated has led us to a place where only the people with the privilege of free time are really able to participate and do that. And that only makes our culture issues worse, which isn't great. So, you know, on the one hand, we're still trying to figure out how do we get maintainers paid? How can we get them paid so they have the time of day to lead their projects? Because of course, it's one thing to build a piece of software and open source it. It's another thing to lead the

thing. There's a community management skills that are needed. There's the marketing skills, the design. If you're not an accessibility or a security expert, well, those are things you're going to need other contributors to help with as well. I get the sense that there's this feeling of exploitation and people feel raw. And so I think we have a lot of problems to solve, not just funding, but how do we wrap around these maintainers to provide them all of the supports that they need? Because funding is really just one piece of the puzzle. which you can see at octoverse.github.com because it's really interesting metrics and I love that stuff but you see like a lot more people or a lot more time being spent by a lot more folks on open source throughout this year so you have this you know surge we're stuck at home people don't have

as much definition between different kinds of work family life life and work. And so you have people working even a lot longer hours on open source, which exacerbates a lot of that. Yeah. We've got, Tidelift just got done running its first ever maintainer survey, not just of people who work with Tidelift, but maintainers writ large. And we're still processing the results of that. We're going to release that, I think, in the coming weeks here. But I'm just looking at a draft here. One of the findings is that more than half of the maintainers we've surveyed have either quit or considered quitting.

And that just gives you a sense of like, I love the phrase open source is one. Of course I do. I'm president of the open source initiative. I work at Tidelift. But open source is one as a marquee just misses the point in a huge way when over half of maintainers have seriously considered quitting or have already quit. It's like we've got a little bit of a house of cards here no matter how much we think open source is one. Yeah. And commercial open source doesn't solve it.

Funny doesn't solve it. Funding doesn't solve it. I think the one thing that comes to mind, and it may not solve it at least, shoulders the burden is just telling them they're not alone. And providing that space to invite other maintainers, other friends who are struggling as well, or in some cases thriving to share what they've learned along the way. And to give that space that week, really, you know, this maintain week thing, I think is such a great idea because it's like a place, a staple in the year that you can, especially we haven't asked y'all yet. Will this be a yearly thing? I sure hope it is because if that's the case, then, you know, this can be something where, you something where that community can look forward to this week. And then you see metrics over time growing. Obviously, you saw OSCON grow and Maitainerati grow and Sustain.

All these conferences either remain small because that's naturally how they are, but you see some sort of metric that you can trend. And I think that's what's important. You may not be able to solve all the problems, but you can at least be there for a virtual or a physical hug or just be present in their life and provide a space to belong. Yeah, I think to the question buried in there, is this going to be an annual thing? I think we all hope so. Absolutely. Absolutely. Sweet.

OK, I'm putting a stake in the sand there. No question. I even went as far as to look up maintainerweek.com, and it is owned by GitHub from what I understand. So I think one day it'll be like a bigger deal at a.com. So you can share that if not, Kara. That's my suspicion at least. That's my sleuth hat put on.

You're right. Do you like my website that I put up there? I do, yeah. I like how it just points to Reba. It's an incredible work of art. Well, you know, keep it simple. Perfection is the enemy of done. And that's perfect because it just points right to the repository.

You can send a report request. You can invite others to get involved. And that really just leans on GitHub as a platform to collaborate. So to me, it makes total sense. Yeah, and we don't own it, right? Like this is the intention is for us to not really. I really appreciated that, what you had in the read me. So what's going on here?

It's important to note that this is not a GitHub own thing. This is a, you said no one owns maintainer week. It's for everyone. And so I think that's the, that's why I want to do the show. It's like to share that bigger story, how you all got together, your background relationship, how this idea came together, and then truly this, you know, at large invitation and now confirmed annual thing. That's right. I want to speak a little more to that point about like, this isn't owned by GitHub. This isn't owned by Tidelift. GitHub and Tidelift are fortunate that

their business models are such that the more the better open source does the better they will do so we are invested in open source in like a really authentic way like the incentives are aligned and so similar to how global maintainer summit and maintainer week are not owned by github you know Tidelift may be convening upstream, but it's not a vendor event. We're not there for ourselves. If we are, it's for thought leadership. Let's bring together people and have quality conversations and make a dent in the world in a positive way. But we're not selling anything, and we don't want to own this space. We want to be peers.

We want to be fellow travelers. We just want to stand up this sort of community infrastructure for other people to pile in. So I think we've got at least one, maybe two other events that are in the works for this year's maintainer week. Stay tuned for those. But the hope is that 2022 comes around and there just aren't even enough days in the week for us to pile in. And, you know, we've got a much, much bigger, more communal thing. So I really, you know, for this year, I really encourage people to put on an event, whether it's a watch party or what, to just really be a part of that week. But okay, maybe two weeks is not enough notice to put on something like that.

We'll be back in 2022 and I would love to see more community participation. And to clarify, the Global Maintainer Summit is like, that is owned by GitHub. That's where we're putting our heart and soul and aesthetic design resources. We're pouring that all in. But it's platform neutral, which we thought was really important. So we'll have folks speaking who are not on the GitHub platform because we want to have a broader representation than that, even though obviously the majority of the projects out there are. Yeah, I like the obviously there. That is very obvious. Well, let's nail in the point here

that maintainer week is more than just this event by Tidelift on Monday and an event by GitHub on Tuesday and Wednesday. You're encouraging everybody to do things, throw events, watch parties. If you're a streamer, stream a thing with a maintainer. If you're a podcaster, get a maintainer on your podcast. Lots of events is the goal. Everybody should be doing a thing.

And Adam, I think we should do a thing. We should do a thing. What do you think? I think we should do a thing. should do what do you think i think we should do a thing here's my idea okay this is live on the air this is like when steve jobs said that facetime would be open source he pretty much just made that up right there at the keynote except for i'm not steve jobs so hopefully this one comes true because when he said that all of his employees were like what so i'm saying this live here to Adam. How about this? Thank a maintainer on us.

So we'll come out with the details, but during maintainer week, maybe it's a specific day, maybe it's all week long. You can thank a maintainer publicly, whether it's Twitter or GitHub or a public channel. Thank a maintainer of a project

that you use and love. And we, Changelog, will send them a Changelog t-shirt as a thank you for being maintainers on us. How does that sound? I like that. I like that. Thank a maintainer on us. I love that.

There you go. Now, we don't have infinite t-shirts, so we might have to come up with some constraints. But there you go. So there's another event. That's why I haven't spoken. I'm adding up the amount of t-shirts necessary. Is this a DigitalOcean thing? This is not Hacktoberfest.

I was going to say, after this, I'm going to DM you the amount of money that DigitalOcean spends on t-shirts for Hacktoberfest. A lot, yeah. Yeah. We're going to have a very humble limit because we're a humble little company. But we'll throw it out there yeah absolutely i love that i mean i think that we already give a t-shirt to every guest because it's a way of us thanking you for your time of course it's optional you don't want or need a

t-shirt you don't have to have it same thing with this maintainer thing they don't want it we're not going to send it to them but we already do that for our guests why not thank a maintainer on us yeah i love that cool you heard it here love that. Cool. You heard it here first, folks. That's right. I heard it here first. Sure. I just thought of it. Now, what day of the week will it be on?

Thursday. I like the time constraint of it. It's like, hey, thank all the maintainers within this window of time or this date stamp. As long as it's the 9th, for example. Or maybe the 10th since the 9th is Global Maintenance Summit. I think you should commit to a day right now. And I'm good with any of those days. Go ahead, Jared. Commit to a day. Do Wednesday.

Wednesday. We will commit to a 9th. Take a maintainer on us. And... So the 9th would be the Wednesday I like that day and y'all can tell everybody about it you know read me we'll put it on the website we'll

we'll put out maybe a blog post something that makes it a little more official with some guidelines and stuff we'll formalize it up but you're hearing it here first and we'll we'll have our own event there you're hearing her first and we'll we'll be we'll have our own event there you go maintain get involved very cool i love it what haven't we covered y'all what what have you been waiting to say waiting to tell us points so it's all free these events are free i think we said at the top right is that correct all just like sign up and be part of something cool right yep we'll be

streaming it live um we've we've uh kind of discussed this josh and i as we've talked about our content um but josh i'm interested to hear what talks are kind of floating to the top as jared brought up earlier yeah so i So I'm going to keep myself brief, but there are two, because there are two tracks that we're running and they're very different. On the one side, I'm really excited about a talk

from Kevin Fleming, Bloomberg. Bloomberg recently stepped up to the plate in a huge way with the Python Software Foundation, paying for a full-time staffer to support the PIP and the Python Package Index. And the TLDR there is, if companies want X, Y, and Z, well, these foundations and projects have their own sense of priorities. If those priorities don't align and a company still needs a thing, put down the money, make it happen, invest in these foundations, and you will finally get the

things that you need. So I'm really excited to have Kevin to talk about that. And I'm also very excited for a talk from Sumana, also known as Brain Wayne from Change Set Consulting. She's been working a lot with Python ecosystem recently. She's going to be talking about four non-developer ways to support your upstream projects. Harking back to something y'all were saying earlier, like, hey, this project needs more than coders. So let's talk about that. I'm looking forward to those.

Okay. Some of the ones that have been kind of top of mind for me is we've got Brendan Burns, one of the co-creators of Kubernetes, is going to come in and talk about scaling the project kind of culturally, what kind of culturally, what kind of stuff they wish they had in place, you know, early on and what that pain and, you know, and victories was like having a project grow that fast from a cultural perspective in terms of what they had in place. I'm excited about that. I love talks. There's plenty, you know,

about scaling stuff technically, but haven't seen as much talk from that on the Kubernetes side of that. So I'm really interested in that. I'm also really excited. We've got Ashley Williams talking about Rust's decision to start the Rust Foundation and what that actually looked like growing that. So that's a lot. That's a big commitment from Rust

to do their own foundation. And I'm really interested in what that kind of looked like on the inside. I don't want you to think it's all this like broad stuff. We have plenty of very specific talks. Rose judge, who is a maintainer on turn, just put one in that I really like, which is letting them down easy.

How to nicely say no to unwanted change proposals. Oh yeah. So we've got a lot of very specific ones for the things that you're like, on a daily basis as well. I'm not sure how you say Bartek is the handle on your schedule lease for that. Should I merge this feature is very similar to like, well, we had that conversation recently with Ben Johnson around like open source, but not open contribution.

Not quite the same, but similar. Basically avoiding that pain of like, sometimes code you don't want for reasons you don't want it or just extra code. And that was the idea there. I think that those are very necessary to talk about because unless you have those kinds of talks, maintainers aren't kind of collecting together and saying, how do you deal with this?

We did that call with Ben. It was like we got a lot of feedback around like this idea of like, sure it's open source, but it doesn't have to be open to contribution for any reason. And one of Ben's reasons for his choice was mental health. He has been an open source maintainer in his past project. Just, you know,

it wasn't healthy for him personally. And we can all make our own choices for our own reasons. And that open source doesn't have to only be this way. Sure it is open source. Let's see what the license is. I think it might be, is it MIT Jared or is it ELV2? I'm not sure which one it is but it's permissive. So I mean it's still open source

but it's not permissive. My bad. He knew in GPL didn't he with Lightstream? Did he? Okay. So it's still open source. Yeah he did. That's right. He did. Either way, either way. The point is that this idea, these are good ideas to share at a place like this because otherwise they're just like passing tweets

or unsaid things, you know, and if you don't have places to gather, where are you sharing these ideas? Actually, I'm really curious for you folks kind of getting through this pandemic sort of isolation period. What's it been like having these regular, I don't know, weekly, bi-monthly conversations with folks? Has that helped? Has that changed things? Yeah. I mean, I feel like me very personally, I already worked from home. And so a lot of my life

didn't really change. I think it's probably pretty similar for Jared, except for certain group activities we weren't involved in as often or at all. So I think for me, life didn't change a ton, except for it changed a ton. So, I mean, I'm not going to say it didn't change. My family left less often. We were at home quite a bit, but for the podcast, I think for us, say again? We got a dog. Recently, very recently. This is like, I would not consider this. That was like a few months ago. That wasn't a lockdown buy?

I told Karen and Josh about my dog. Oh, I saw the dog. They saw the dog. I have screenshots of the dog. I looked at it today. No joke. That's right. Well, I just think like a lot of people are buying dogs and pets and like, because they're

not having as much contact with that's right living things and so like dogs are actually a hot commodity not to belittle them by calling them commodities but you know what i mean people are buying dogs because of lockdown and yeah just saying you bought a dog so that's why i think it weighs on your life change things we did you have to change but you know the podcast i think for us like it's nice you know I zoom a lot and I and I have to say that I don't actually mind it because I'm always connecting and they're never like they're not terrible meeting zoom calls they're always like like this this conversation it's very good so like you know I will have fatigue so to speak but it's not like because

I'm like on droning zoom calls that just like suck the laugh out of me in many ways. It definitely takes energy to be involved, you know, mental energy and whatnot, but I love it. I think for us, it's the best time to be a podcaster because I haven't felt very alone in this. Like, I feel like there's the community has been strong through it. We've connected with many people through it. I feel like for us, our homeostasis in that way was maintained. I'm kind of jealous. Yeah. Honestly, you get these ongoing conversations.

We have a lot, yeah. My office mate is usually, I'm on the second floor. There's a scrub jay that I feed out the window. And that's been my office mate the whole year. But I think it's watching its nest right now now so it hasn't really been coming by instead the day before yesterday the squirrel came by first time ever with a squirrel up on this floor covered in mange like just half of its hair just like really scabby the poor buddy and i kept giving it peanuts right like i'm lonely yeah i got no one up here and

finally i uh i texted all my friends i was like look at this cool mage squirrel but finally i opened the window to put another peanut out and she jumps in excitement up onto my hand and scratches me and so i spent like an hour you know googling Googling being like, am I going to die? Do I have mange? I don't want to die from a squirrel scratch. Like that's so embarrassing. That's the only, I'm not ready. You have to tell people that. Couldn't you just like call it COVID or something, you know, just to hide the squirrel scratch.

I was so, I was so embarrassed. And I had to like follow up with all my friends and be like, I'm sorry, everyone. I'd like, not my fault. Totally got a scratch, but I'm still alive everyone. Not my fault. Totally got scratched. But I'm still alive today. So I think I haven't gotten mage yet. We'll see. Well, you're a survivor and you have a new friend. Yeah.

I mean, you could always put it off as a shark bite, you know? Great point. Great point. Yeah, I'm the maintainer bite. Josh. Maintainer bite. I really do like the comparison to Shark Week because there's just so much enthusiasm around that week. And it's been a staple for so many people.

And who doesn't love to learn more about the things in the ocean? Sure, it's just sharks, but. It took the four of us 10 minutes to confirm if a shark was a fish or a animal. You're talking about learning stuff from Shark Week? What have you learned? Lots. I learned that I like sharks. Fish are friends, not food, man. All right. All right. The point is that the enthusiasm, I'm not saying like, sure, people like come back to this because they're always discovering new stuff about

sharks. If you go back to the beginning of shark week to now there's definitely learnings and scientifically so i think there's there's definitely a trend line to follow my comparison is not so much like the maintainers are sharks but there's so much enthusiasm around this and it is a staple i'm googling is shark week good pr for sharks because i'm not sure. Within the last year, one of the shark developments was we've got volcano sharks, right? What? Have you not heard of this? What? No!

They're not in volcanoes above land, but you know, the under-the-sea volcanoes, some of them seem okay hanging out in the caldera. What? I know, it's wild. Check this out.

Hammerhead sharks, along with silk sharks, were found living in a volcano. There it is. Oh my gosh. So here's my question. The next one will have sharks on a plane. Here's my question. As maintainer week becomes a thing for the next decade, what is the maintainer equivalent of volcano shark

see see jared yeah i'm onto something here that's something to ponder i would like everyone who's listening to this the few the few the brave that are still here to google goblin shark just to round out this experience i really appreciate that that's that's scary looking okay we'll leave it there that's my favorite shark yeah well here's to maintainers here's to maintain a week here's to the serendipity of y'all's relationship and how you met and how you planned the same thing without knowing it was the same thing and you dm'd each other and you found out and boom shaka it's all happening here maintain a week is happening begins june 7th and it's going to be awesome what's the url where do people go to is

it maintainweek.com is it what is the url to easily say is it i think it's maintain a week dot github.com potentially or show notes it's in the show notes it's in the show notes yeah github.com slash github slash. It's in the show notes. Yeah. It's reminding me of show notes. GitHub.com slash GitHub slash maintain a week is the repo. That's it. So go to the repo. That's it. That's the repo.

Repo is where it's at. Okay. For the global maintainer summit, you could type in. Show notes. That's the thing is every time I type in maintain nerds.com because Martin Woodward made it redirect. And so I never remember the URL. You told us about that. Yeah.

You mentioned it on our show with him. That was so cool. Um, maintain nerds. I'm jealous of that domain. Yeah. Either way. Hey,

listen, it's in the show notes. We got some places to go, some things to do. We love you maintainers. We'll see you there. Josh, Kara, thank you so much for all you do. Really appreciate you. And thanks for joining us. It's a pleasure. Like seriously, thanks for having this conversation and looking to kind

of continue it. Start of June. This has been great. I'm looking forward to partnering on this maintainer week and many more to come. There you go. Thanks, y'all. All right. That's it for this episode of the Change Law. Thank you for tuning in. We have a bunch of podcasts for you at changelog.com. You should check out. Subscribe to the master feed. Get them all at changelog.com slash master. Get everything we ship in a single feed. And I want to personally invite you to join the community at changelog.com slash community. It's free to join. Come hang join the community at changelog.com slash community. It's free to join. Come hang with us in Slack.

There are no imposters and everyone is welcome. Huge thanks again to our partners, Linode, Fastly, and LaunchDarkly. Also thanks to Breakmaster Cylinder for making all of our awesome beats. That's it for this week. We'll see you next week. Thank you.