The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - Opus 4.5 changed everything (Interview)

Episode Date: February 27, 2026

Burke Holland works on GitHub Copilot by day and codes with his AI agents always. Early January, Burke posted about how Opus 4.5 changed everything. We were all still buzzing from the holiday-season 2x usage bump Claude gave us, and Opus 4.5 felt like a genuine step function in capability. Burke and I get into all the details. Opus 4.5 may have started the fire, but GPT-5.3 Codex is certainly living up to the hype.

Well, friends, the end is here. Not the end of the show, but the end of a fantastic partnership. I started the change law back in 2009 with Winneetherland, and the show has been a beloved breakout ever since. In 2012, Wynne stepped away to lead GitHub's API, so I had to reinvent what the change all was. That same year, Jared joined as a contributor and guest on the podcast. Eventually, it made sense for him to join as a full-time host with me.

I grew into a business partnership where Jared joined as a partner in the business and managing editor, and the rest is kind of history. Without going into too much detail, late last year, it made the most sense to part ways. No drama, no issues, we remain friends. Just time for change. And this week is the week of that change. Today I am solo once again on this podcast, and of course, I'm reinventing what it is we do here. For now, it'll be more of the same.

But in the near future, expect change. Good change. In the meantime, you can join the community at changelaw.com slash community. It is free to join. Hang with us in Zillow chat. It's a ton of fun. And to my dear friend, Jared, you will be missed. Thank you so much for the many laughs and all the good times and just everything.

Friends forever. All right. Let's do the show. Welcome back. This is the Change Log. I'm Adam Stikoviac, editor-in-chief here at changelaw.com, and today, I'm joined by Burke Holland from the GetUp co-pilot team, and we're talking about how Opus 4.5 changed everything. This is coming straight from a post, Burke shared in January, just after the AI holiday high we were all on from the generous 2X usage bump with Claude and the major step function Opus 4.5 offered. Burke and I get into all the details.

Opus 4.5 may have started the fire, but GPT 5.3 Codex is certainly living up to the hype. A massive thank you to our friends and our partners over at fly.io. That is the home of changelaw.com. Learn more at fly.com. All right, let's do this. Well, friends, I'm here with my good friend Chris Kelly over at Augman Code. Chris, I'm a fan. I use Augie on the daily. It's one of my daily drivers. use cloud code. I use Augment, Augie. And I also use AMP code and others, but Augie, I keep going back to it. And here's where I'm at. I feel like not enough of our audience knows about Augment code,

not enough about Augie, the CLI. It's amazing. I love it. What can you share? Yeah, we often say augment is the best coding assistant you've never heard of. And that's both frustrating as someone that works there and it's like very proud of the work we've done. But also like inspiring. Like, We want to go and sort of punch above our weight. We're just like we aren't anthropic and we aren't open AI. And so the quality of the product itself, you know, with our context engine, once you do touch it, people are like just blown away by that. And so like that keeps me going every day.

So not to bear the lead here, but this is a paid spot. You are sponsoring this show to get this awareness. Now, at the same time, we're selective. And I love to use your tool. But there is in the world. So a lot of developers look at the space and they say, okay, well, how long can this work? How long is this sustainable in the case of Cursor or a windsurf? Or you pick the name and you think discounted tokens help me shape a lens for our audience?

I think it's a lot of awareness, right? Like Cursor got a lot of publicity early on for like fast revenue growth, which well deserved. I think, you know, frankly, some of the media got the, gets the story wrong and that like if I gave you a dollar 50, for every dollar you sent me, I'd be the fastest growing startup in the valley. And so when you're selling discounted tokens, yes, of course you're going to grow very fast, but all that money plus more goes to the model providers. So I think the real story is the story of Anthropic and, you know, being an API provider, I think the market has just moved so fast and there's so many pieces of competition out there that it's just hard to get noticed.

So friends, I love augment code and I love using Augie. And I highly recommend you use it. I love using Augie. I can hand Augie a well-defined specification, a well-defined pep, as I call them in my world, an agent flow, and it executes flawlessly. So the cool thing about Augie that I love most really is that context engine, and I can hand it a task, and it can just churn away on my well-defined plan and just never bother me and accomplish the mission. It is so cool leveraging the latest models, the context engine, and all the fun things behind. behind the scenes in that awesome CLI. So yes, go try it out, augmentcode.com.

Right in the top there is a CLI icon, a terminal icon. Click that, install it, and change your world. It's going to be awesome. Obamincode.com. Well, friends, we're here with Burke Holland, a dear friend, finally on the pod. We can't tell if you've been to the podcast before, Bert, but you know what, I'm glad you're here.

You work for Microsoft, working on the GitHub team, running co-pilot and you know I just I just don't know this is a crazy where we're in you know

what sparked this idea was actually Jared who's since retired from the podcast but you shared a post one of the most recent post

but not you're not an avid blogger other than that January 5th Opus 45 is going to change everything

and that was January 5th and obviously you know today is February 25th a lot's changed in those two months. What do you think?

Yeah. So just a quick rejoinder around the intro there. I work on GitHub co-pilot, but that's a massive product surface area. There's the cloud coding agent, there's the CLI, and there's Visual Studio Code, and there's Code Review, and there's the SDK. There's like, there's so many different teams working on it. So I work in developer relations, and I work across those different groups. but so yeah, am I not, I'm not an avid blogger, am I? I think I, I think I do more video now.

I do. You're like, you know, I'm, I haven't posted in a while. And here comes this major. That's how I wanted to frame. Like, you hadn't posted in about a year. You do post quite frequently other than that. But it was like a year gap. And then you're like, listen, open four, five is changing everything.

Well, bam. Yeah, I saw that. And then it, well, I mean, yeah, that's what happened. I saw that it went to, it was on the front of Hacker News. I was like, whenever you blog, this happened to me maybe two or three times

in my career and something like that happens, it's just not the post you think. Right? You just sort of throw something up. Would you have written it differently given the attention again? Of course. Yeah, like if you go in,

there's this big like disclaimer at the top that was added after the fact that just like is essentially everything I wish I had said coming out of the gate. But yeah, let's talk about that. I mean, so there's this. inflection point right around December and everybody knows that this is true. Like I'm intrinsically people can just, they just feel it knows, Burke, honestly.

I think a lot of people who are the inner circles know this, but I'm having conversations. They're like, you used AI to do that. Why? No one wants to use AI. AI is, you know, this or that. And you and I and a lot of people in this audience are in the no. And some of them are actually like, I don't know, you know, so maybe not everybody knows. Not everybody knows.

Yeah, so let's add some context there. So I've been working on GitHub co-pilot for literally for years. So I've been with it since GPT4-1, which is kind of like the first model we got. And I actually created a custom chat mode called Beast Mode, which would just get 4-1 to like do things. Like just to get the model to do something instead of telling you it was going to do something and then not doing anything at all. And then the model started to get better. And then we got Sonnet 35. And Sonnet 35 was like,

I mean, it's crazy, right? People were building all kinds of stuff with it. Yeah. It would actually do the thing and it would build you a nice purple gradient website every single time. But the point is that like it could do a lot. But it was a really sloppy model. Like it just would generate a lot of spaghetti code.

Sonop models are super eager. So they want to please you. And so they end up just doing just running kind of willy-nilly through your code base. but they will build things agentically. When we say agentically, we mean like the agent is like calling tools. It's running terminal commands. It's looking stuff up on the internet. It's acting like a developer.

But the problem was, you know, even for us from where I was sitting, I could see that like it would get you to like a demo or a prototype. But then it's like you couldn't, then it would get stuck on an error. And then you had a problem because it doesn't understand the error. And neither do you because you didn't write that code. And that's a problem. you can't really sit in both spaces. You can't have an agent that is half right half the time.

You need it to be like all right all the time, ideally. And so in December, it was November, December, I forget. Anthropic releases this model called Opus, which they've had Opus for a while, but they release Opus 4-5. And it's because my job, is to like test these things out and like what does this tool do? How does this model work? I'm testing out Opus 4-5 over the Christmas break. And the first thing that I did was I tried to,

I was building like native Windows tools. I tried to build a tool that would allow me to resize windows on Windows to a specific width and height. Like I'm just testing models inside of Visual Studio code with copilot. And it just one shots it. Just one shots it. And I was like, what the heck? And not only did it one shot it, but it used native WinUI libraries and it just did it right. And then I'm going through and I'm looking at the code and I'm like, this is really well structured. It's not perfect, but it looks really good. And the model's thinking is clear. And I was like, that's nuts. And so then I built another tool that it was like, let's capture part of the screen and then turn it into a gift. So like, you know, for sharing on Twitter and

things like that. So I did that and it one-shoted that. And I was like, well, shoot, I wonder if I could just like turn this into a complete screen video editing tool like snag it or something like that. And I did in the course of like, I don't know, a couple hours, right? I was able to build something that functioned approximately, approximately. Not product level, but it worked. It worked. Exactly. And it's like. that's just nuts. Like when you think about, and all I'm doing is prompting the model. I don't, there's no special workflows happening here. It's just me telling the model what I want, brainstorming with it a little bit, then he goes off and does the thing. So when we went into

the Christmas break, I was like, I was pretty confident that I could actually build useful things. And my wife owns a small business. People who are listening to the pod may have seen this before, but like if you're in the U.S., you may have driven by houses and there's like a big happy birthday sign in the front yard. It's like different letters. Have you seen this? You may have seen this out. Yeah.

Yeah. They do that. I'm in Texas. So we do things like that in Texas. We have a big front yard. Yeah. So it's a franchise and she owns that franchise for our city in Tennessee. And so she had a lot of, it's called.

It's called card my yard is the name of the company. Yeah. Yeah. Cardmyard.com. Go order a sign. for your There you go. Do it up.

For your kid's birthday or your dog's birthday. It doesn't matter. Okay. So she has, I build all these little apps for her and these little, like,

there's her entire business runs on a raspberry pie. No way. Yeah. And it does things like it. She gets orders in her email and it prints them out for her and stuff like that.

But one of the things that they wanted people to do that the franchise wants people to do is to like get on Facebook and post pictures of the signs that people have put out in yards, along with a caption. And like running a page for a small business is inherently marketing slop, as it were.

But it's like it's a pain. People don't want to do it. And she doesn't want to do it. Right. So she has no Facebook presence at all. And I was like, this is so automatable because of the nature of what it's doing. It's posting a picture of a sign, describing what's in the sign and then saying like, happy birthday or something like that. So I built in an afternoon, I built an iOS app for her that does exactly that.

It just allows her to upload as many pictures as she wants. And then it uses the Gemini, uses Gemini to look at the images and generate captions. And then she can tweak the captions. And then all of that is saved. And so each time the model is called, it's like, oh, by the way, these are the last 10 captions that the user accepted. So they like it when it looks like this. right? And so it's it's mixing it up. And so I did that inside of an afternoon. What was crazy about that is I had tried to build that app like a year ago at night. I was spending like two or three hours in night using AI. And I got like 80% of the way there and could not get it over the finish line. And I did it in an afternoon with Opus. And then I built another app for her that just replaced an app that she used for driving where it would route to the different. stops that she has when she goes out to set up signs.

She's just paying for that. Yeah. And so I've replaced the SaaS killer run here before. Like this is an example of were you paying for an application before that driving one where she paid for something and then you replaced it with something that's exactly. That's exactly what we did. Gosh. Yeah.

Yeah. And of course because it's personal software, it's not distributed to the app store. It's just loaded straight to her phone because I can do that. So this was when I. I just had this moment of I'm just sitting here like, well, I can do anything. Where are we at right now, right? Like, what does this mean for the world, right? Totally.

And I thought that I was discovering something that nobody else knew about when I was This is a secret. Only Burke knows this. Only I know. But no, that's not at all. Over December, like, Claude Code usage just skyrocketed because everybody essentially figured this out. They gave people like 2X, they used to believe, over the Christmas holiday as well. So, I mean, that helped out.

a ton just to be like if you've got the $20 plan or the low plan and you got like a effectively $100 plan you got max limits in a way and if you had the $200 plan the max the true max plan I believe like the sky was literally the limit you could not reach the upper pound of of that now the context window is still a definite factor of course but usage limits overall across the model daily weekly was was quite high yeah and they are, right? Like if you're paying, so in for co-pilot, you can pay, so co-pilot, regardless of what people think about it, is the best deal on going by an enormous margin. So it's like 40 bucks a month and you get it's, it's premium request, it's request based billing right now. So

if you if you do one request and that request does 6,000 things, that's just one request. You just paid for one request and you have 1,500 of those a month. For Claude Code, even at $200 a month, right? You can beat that thing up to the tune of like a billion tokens a month. I mean, that's like, I don't know, their cost on that is like $25,000 and your cost is $200. It's just the subsidization that is happening right now is wild. And it won't be around forever. It can't be. Or we're going to have to figure out how to make clean cheap energy in a hurry. Either that or it's going to get real expensive. to build with models at some point in the future.

Yeah. I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah, this is a really interesting thing because we have a lot of angles. We have, you know, you and me and everyone else in the holiday break, literally being flabbergasted at what we can do. Weeks prior to that, hitting walls, hitting errors, hitting hurdles, not being able to really ship something of high quality with AI to then using Opus 4 or 5

and just literally opening our eyes to be like, that thing just did everything I asked and more and not being able to believe that. Then you got energy concerns, obviously, it's in there. But now the status quo is this level of AI-assisted development that high-performance teams are now like super high-performance teams. The lowest rung of developer is now high-performance. And so the status quo now is high performance, but it comes at a cost.

You have to pay, to be a developer maybe, or to build software, you're going to want to use this kind of tooling because it's going to keep getting better and better. I think the concern I have is this toll booth. I'm enjoying the benefits of what we're all using right now. But the concern I have is the toll booth that to be a developer, you have to pay enormous amounts of money or have maybe even, you know, even some money. several team members that are high performance team members to do the things that are now the benchmark of the marketplace in the industry because the bar has just risen so high. What do you think about that? I mean, I think that you still need to be a really high performing developer to be able to

actually ship. And the reason for that is that you need to understand a lot about architecture and security and how an app actually gets to production. Coding something is easy. Code has never been the hard part. That's always been the easy part, honestly, for being honest. It's getting that thing into production that's hard, and that's still the case.

And so this is why you see so many people talking about what they vibe coded, and yet none of that stuff is in production, because that's hard. So I think that you still need to know, a substantial amount about what you're doing. What I don't have an answer to is like, so people who are junior, then the question is like, well, do you still need to learn how to code? I would think that you do because you can't, these concepts build on each other, right?

You can't, how do you understand what a rest API is? If you don't understand how to call that rest API or how it's consumed underneath, And the only way to really understand all these levels of abstraction, but the second that that comes out of my mouth, I'm like, yeah, but at some point you had to understand what the compiler was doing and you don't anymore. I don't know what the compiler does, nor do I care. So as you said, like, we don't know where all this is going.

But I don't think that, like, you couldn't bring a non-technical person in and just drop them inside of an AI tool and be like, do it unless it was like v0 or something for VSEL where it's really abstracting. But to actually ship a piece of software, no, you still need to be a dev. I think that for your high performing devs, I actually wonder about this.

Because the thing is, like in the past, you're really high performing devs where people that could do things like build very complex algorithms to solve speed problems. So right, performance. issues, et cetera. But AI is really good at that, right?

Like it knows all the algorithms. It can just destroy leak code. So I'm unsure at this point if that's really the case, other than that you need to know what to ask for a lot of times. Like, you may need to know that you need a binary search at this point, right? And to be able to direct the AI and say, why don't we do a binary search here and see if that's faster? You don't have to implement.

You don't have to know how that's implemented. That's not your problem. But it is your problem to understand the conceptual nature there. I think concepts is a bigger thing to learn. I'm not saying nay against learning the code as we've known it, like boot camp level kind of thing. Or even a hackathon. You go and go to a hackathon because somebody says it's cool and then you get hooked on software development. I'm not saying nay to that.

But I think if you can conceptually understand, even things like, ETL pipelines. Like even that, I'm using ETL pipelines never before. Before December, November last year, never. Knew what they were, knew how they were utilized, but my ETL pipeline is not exactly the definition of extract, transform load, but it's a version of take something from here, have a silver layer, or have a bronze layer, then transform it into a silver layer, and then have a final production to goal, which is the Medea method.

And I didn't even know that until AI taught me it. It's like, hey, what we're doing here is kind of like. Oh, you learned like via brainstorm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because I knew about ETL as a concept. And then when it explained it to me, I'm like, you know, there's got to be a better way. And I like, yeah, we should build a pipeline.

I'm like, okay, let's talk about that. And then I learned about Medellian method, which is the bronze, silver, gold kind of process to an etail pipeline. And as a practitioner, I began to learn more. Now I'm really well versed in it. But before that, I had only understood it as a concept. And so I was using a. concept to drive the direction, which then taught me through iteration. And now it's, you know, table stakes. It's too easy now. Yeah, that's a really good point. Somebody had made this point,

I think I've made this point before, that like my fear was, oh, we're all going to stop coding and just prompt AIs, and we're all going to get dumber because no one is going to know what they're doing anymore. Because if you don't use it, you lose it kind of thing. But that's not what's happening. What's actually happening is that, like you said, I'm learning all sorts of concepts that I never would have learned before. The world has expanded versus contract. Correct. That's exactly right. So instead of being overly focused on like, how do I compose this function? It's like, who cares? Do you know what a Unix socket is and how cool that is and how that works and go? I didn't last week, but I do now. All right, that's a wild. And so I think that like as the people who are

using AI or getting this knock on effect to benefit that no one really realizes where they're just learning at an accelerated rate. Yeah. Because they're, they've let go of whether or not this needs to be an if or a ternary or whether I should abstract this out to a different file. Who cares? Yeah. Take us into, I suppose, more of your world. You know, for one, you work from Microsoft. You're playing with other people's models. That's a thing. But tell me how your practices to build something has changed. Like what specifically has changed step by step? I mean, part of what I do is try to figure out the workflows that developers actually need to be successful.

And there's sort of two different ways to do this. When you're teaching someone, you really want to start like greenfield and simple. But in the real world, it isn't like that. It's more complex. So let's talk about the first one first, and we'll talk about it the second. So for my greenfield projects, I've experimented a lot with composing workflows that allow me to get from, okay, I have nothing. And I want to get to this end point. What are the things that I need to do along the way and how involved do I need to be?

Because you have all these different, you have the agenic tool itself, whether that's VS code or the co-pilot CLI. And then you have, or others, sorry, right, cursor, click. code, there's many others. And then you have like MCP servers, which is how your agent can talk to GitHub or how it can talk to Figma or, and then you have skills, which have serious overlap with MCP servers. And then you have instruction files. And then you have custom agents, which is you basically just overriding the agent behavior and defining workflows. And it's all very confusing for people because because they don't know they don't know what they're supposed to do with these things. And the honest truth is that neither do the people who are building them.

Like we don't know what the future looks like. All we can do is look at what building blocks we could create, create them, and then see how people put them together and then iterate. That's the honest truth. And so that's what I try to do is figure out what does a workflow look like for me. So currently, my workflow is I'm now fully into the copilot CLI using it within VS code, but I start off with a plan where I basically talk to the CLI and I tell it kind of what I want. And I'm in plan mode.

And these plan modes have gotten really, really good. And people are like, I don't need a plan, but it's not about the plan. That's not what you need. What you need is the agent to think through with you, all of the things that you just forgot to tell it. that it needed to include in this initial prompt. Because prompting is super hard. With this idea of prompt engineering, which is just prompt engineering is just giving the model the answer that you want.

If you give it enough context, it will get the answer right and give you a, right, if you were to spell out exactly what to do, it could literally build Minecraft on its own. But you can't do that. That's not, you can't put the prompt B2B, you can't do it. So in plan mode, you get this iteration with the agent's like,

like, okay, cool. Here's, here's, did you think about this? Here's what I recommend, but here's three other options, or you can do a fourth one. And you go through about like four or five, six loops of this. And I'm using Opus four, six for this. It's incredibly good. And then once you get to a point where you're like, yeah, that's pretty good. Of course, you're not going to one shot an operating system.

But for a lot of us, we can get to sort of like an MVP and a one shot. So you can like one shot to MVP and then iterate from there. So in your MVP, and then in co-pilot, we have something called autopilot. And autopilot's like a Ralph loop. You're familiar with Ralph loops? Yes. Where the agent is just fed. It's a Ralph Orchestrator.

It's a Rust Project. Okay. Cool. Yeah. So similar concept where it will basically feed the agent's output back to itself. It's just running the agent in a loop. And it does this until the agent has some amount of confidence. There's this idea of like, if you tell agents,

agents like do this until it's done. They're like, okay, I did it. It's done. You're like, it's not done. It isn't done. But if you tell them, do this until you have 95% confidence that it's done, then they will run and run and run and run and run, building up a confidence level. So a lot of that stuff is abstracted into the tool. But then I'm also like using a custom mode, a custom agent in that that I call Anvil. What Anvil does is it, it does two major things.

thing that it does is it decides, like, is this a easy task, a medium task or a hard task? Because you want different workflows from the AI depending on what those are. It's not the same thing. If you ask the agent a simple question, that's an easy task. It should just answer that. But if you give it a hard task where you need it to build something, then it really needs to plan. It needs to use subagents. It needs to farm work out.

In GitHub co-pilot, you can use different models. So, like, you can use Gemini 3, 53 codex, and Opus 4. 4-6 all in the same run, and you can use as many of them as you want to. Okay, so now we're in an orchestration scenario. 4-6, if we're, let's say we're going to do a massive refactor, it might farm out the design work to Jim and I. It might farm out the refactoring to 5-3. You might have 26 sub-agents running.

You need to review that code. And so this is my workflow now is to try to automate all of that. So I'm planning, and then I'm autopilot with my custom agent, which out the other side needs to give me something that's verifiable. Like, how do I know that you think that this worked? What is the evidence that you have that this worked? And if it's in a browser, then you can use skills like the agent browser skill to have the thing check its own work.

That's like the easiest scenario. Like for native apps, this gets really tough. Like, if you're building a native Mac app, how the heck is the agent going to do that? It can't, right? It could write unit tests, but unit tests is where, learning are like woefully inadequate for telling you whether or not your code actually works. So that's a long way of answering your question is that like I don't have all the answers. These are just the things that I think about on a daily basis. And then how do I further get

myself out of the loop? So if I'm sitting here babysitting the thing constantly, how can I automate what I'm doing right now? Is it possible? Could Adam, for instance, is it possible for me to give co-pilot CLI a large job and then walk away and have it messaged me on telegram and say, hey, listen, like I did this much. I think this is what we should do next. Let me know what you think. And then I can respond and say, yes, do or don't do this. And then it goes off and continues to do it.

Can it operate more as like a team lead and less as? And I think the answer is yes, but you have to have the workflows and the checks and balances set up to actually make that happen. Well, friends, today's podcast is brought to by our friends. And I use Squarespace personally. I love it. We use it on one of our small businesses. It's amazing.

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The platform handles the access control for you, the payments for you, the presentation for you, and all you got to do is bring the expertise and ideas. Here's the next step. Head to squarespace.com slash changelog for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, our offer code change log to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Again, squarespace.com slash changelog. Get that free trial, use it, enjoy it, and have fun. That's an interesting one because recently I did a version of that. I'd been, I'm trying to decide if I should say the brand name. I, similar to the way you SaaS killed something for your wife, I SaaS killed something for myself because I use an invoicing tool that is largely glorified email.

It's really just an email through a service that is a paying service. They largely pay us via wire or ACH, which is not at all through the conduit of the invoicing service. And the invoicing service is like 500 to 800 bucks a year because of the kind of clients and brands we work with. There's a lot of them, and I just don't feel like I need to delete brands to kind of get back to a lower tier service. And it's kind of like paying extra for a database just for a couple rows of brands that work with us a couple times a year, but don't need to get deleted. All that to say is, I just kind of thought about it. I was like, could I just build this in Rails? Because I love Rails. And I actually miss Ruby a lot.

Could I build this in Rails? And could I have one shot this in away? And I was, I was like, here's all the things I want. And I wrote my own list. I handed that to Claude Webb. I call it Cloud Web, not Cloud Code. Cloud Web, Opus 4-6, extended thinking. Hey, this is my thinking. I'm going to go to bed.

Give me the best prompt to get a good V1 in place. I'm going to hand this. And in this case, I'm going to name drop to Augie. Because Augie is from our friends over at Augment Code. They're one of our sponsors. Not supporting this show, but one of our sponsors, and I love them. But Augie is also good. at doing things on a loop with a great prompt and not have to do it in that dash-dash-dangerously way,

if you know what I mean. And so I can walk away happily knowing that it's not going to arm anything or doing anything negative to my system. And so I'm going to hand this. I'm literally telling Claude this. I'm going to hand this play by play. I'm taking what you give me. I'm going to copy and paste it directly into Augie. Let it go.

And I'm going to walk away. Okay. the next morning I wake up. Ledger is born. Okay? The next morning I have an app that works, invoices, emails, PDFs, logs in,

all the things. I mean, there's a couple things they could probably do to make it more production ready, but like it's the V1. And so that's one thing. The other thing is, is on the telegram front,

the challenge I wonder is that there are times when I'm in those kind of loops like you are. And as a great teammate, it may have a more complex problem that can solve in Telegram. I may actually need to be there with it. And I guess in that case, it might be great to know that, but it might bug me on that walk or it might bug me on that restful step away.

So I'm kind of torn on that bug me on Telegram front, but it got to be nice because maybe I'm at lunch with a colleague and I'm still working and I want to be in work context. But sometimes the thing that I have to, that sort of, you know, human in the loop scenario with the agent to take that next step requires deeper thinking than I can do in a telegram message or I may need to access more tools or whatever. And so then I might just be like, oh, man, now I got this agent anxiety again. I got to get back to my agent.

You know what I'm saying? So that's my long way to response to you is like, I have one shot is something recently out of frustration. But it wasn't a true one shot. It was a thoughtful deep V1 one shot. It wasn't like build me a rails at to replicate X. It was more like, here's what I use. Here's what I use about it.

Here's what I really care about it. Here's all the things I don't want you to do. There's all the things I do want you to do. And I'm literally going to bed. I just told her what I'm doing. Came back the next morning and Ledger's Born. Yeah, I've thought about this a lot myself where it's like what you really want is for the agent to just work all nights, like you said.

then build the thing that I want. But the problem is it doesn't know what you want. And you cannot get out everything because you don't know. And that's not how software is built anyway. In no world are all the requirements and constraints to find up front. What happens instead is that you think you know. You discovered as you go. That's right. And it changes. And you make tradeoffs. And the agent has to do the same thing. And so I don't know what the answer to this is other than whatever product you and I are replacing, currently probably has a team of devs and an engineering lead. And every Monday morning they get together in a stand-up and maybe they have a stand-up every day where they go over all of the work that's in the backlog, what the status is on each one of those things. And I almost

wonder if that isn't the future, right? Because you can't just hand this work off and then just walk away and expect that the agent is just magically going to know exactly what you want. It just doesn't. So in order to really build anything of size, you'd almost have to have to have a daily standup with your agent where you go over all of the things that it's working on and review. And that's tedious. That's actually the part no one likes. Right. Like, chat, if you're listening to this pod, like, if you're in a daily stand-up, you're like, that's my least favorite part of the day. Yeah.

I mean, I'm with you. But there are reasons why we have processes and that's so that we can actually build things that work. I did something similar where I have a Ralph loop. I have co-pilot C.I running in a loop. And it's building a multiplayer game where you just, you just larp as a baby bird and you're a hatch from an egg and you fly around. And I'm letting it, it's deciding everything. It decides what features it should add.

It decides what's engaging. It decides what bird behavior is. And I check on it every morning, but it's just running 24-7. And it does a pass and it adds something. And then it comes back and looks to see. what it could add and it just keeps going. Do I think that this will end in a playable, like, viable piece of software? I do not. Right? Probably not. I think it will be some monster of a thing that is interesting to look at, but is not, it's not something you would ship. And from what I can tell,

this is currently where we're at. So like, I won't name names, but there are companies that have built, like, they sent agents off to build an entire browser or they sent agents off to build an entire compiler. And it's phenomenal that the agent can even do that. Like, instead of throwing stones when this happens, people should just step back and acknowledge the incredible feat that that is, that you had a thousand agents that built a browser. That's amazing. But to actually ship that browser, that is a whole other story. To ship that compiler, that is a whole other story. I don't have answers here other than to acknowledge that these are the gaps that we're currently trying to think through?

I have some verse of an answer. And I think this is the lens we need to take, because this is the lens I'm taking, and it's helpful to me, is that not all software is created equal, right? Just like your game is not the same kind of production level, shipable, sellable, sellable,

SLA-able software. Like, those are not, they're still software, but they're not the same software. The benchmarks, the requirements, the desires are totally different. And so I think the lens we have to take is that there's a lot of nays there's like,

oh, but it can't do this or, oh, it can't do that. Well, let me just tell you, like, you even called it out in your post, Sam, Altman, and, you know, others talking about where we're going and engineers being replaced, where we're like, now they ain't going to happen. And this year, we're like, oh my gosh, it's going to happen soon.

It might happen like three months from now, you know. And so I think not all software is created equal. I think versions of software will change in terms of like your toy game. And it's probably that for you. versus somebody else's browser they want to like figure out if they can actually ship. Getting that to production, getting it to ship is way different, but it's a different kind of beast.

Even the most recent example with Cloudflare and Open Next. Like I don't know. I saw that. Yeah. Shout out to Steve. I used to work with Steve here at Microsoft, the guy that wrote that blog post. That was a great post. Yeah.

I mean, like even just like the way they wrote it out was just phenomenal. I'm excited about that because the uptick of software getting created, the uptick of repos being created on GitHub, the uptick of all the things, essentially, apps on the app store, there's a lot. And I think what's happening is people are learning how to build more software. They're learning like you are about Go and WebSockets or go in how you can use a Unix socket, for example, and what that does for the way you can connect and stuff.

that. I mean, RPC versus an arrest API, you got GRP, I mean, you've got all sorts of things that are happening where you're now learning different things and that's the explosion happening is that your world, your world and my world as well, and hopefully our audience's world is now flattened in terms of, well, I can touch pretty much any piece of language or protocol or software as I'd like to because the AI is getting enough better, getting better enough to take me there. and I'm learning with it. And hopefully you're not just simply one-shodding and praying, but you're more like iterating with it.

Because I find the most fun I'm having building software is iterating with it, learning with it, and not like it's teaching me and I'm teaching it, but more like I'm just learning through the process of actually being a developer again, touching things I would have not touched a year ago, building things I wouldn't have even dreamed about, and learning along the way and iterating along the way, using iterating, using iterating,

And that feedback loop for me is really just a one person shop in that regard because a lot of my software is just built for it. It's personal. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody said the age of personal software is here. And they're 100% right. And I think that's what most of us are doing right now. And so for people who are listening to this that are like skeptical, like I can't stress enough, you can build anything.

And if you're listening thinking to yourself, no, you can't. I've seen what AI can do. The problem is that we've been trying, we've been on this sort of like hype. grind for so long that we sold people like six months. Like a year ago, we were like, you can build software with AI and you could, but it was tedious. And then a year later, we're telling people like, no, no, no, no, no, you can build software with AI and they're like, fool me once, right? You're not going to fool me again. But I don't know what to tell you besides just go, y'all, just go do it. Like ever wanted to build a AAA game? Just go do it. Just go do it. See if

I'm wrong. Test me and see if you can't get to something that's functional inside of an hour. Yeah, and you can. You really can. Now that you see, and really thanks to open source. I mean, we were, maybe you could speak to this given GitHub and co-pilot. Like there was a lot of outrage on the initial release of GitHub co-pilot in that, oh, GitHub released this thing and it trained on all of our code. Damn you, GitHub and all this stuff.

But then open source is still here and still, I would say open source is thriving more than ever. And there's this massive swing back to just simply, open source and free and open tooling. I mean, Open Next is the example we just led with there. I mean, it's a good thing.

Yeah, because it's so cheap to create software now that it's nothing for you to just create something and then make it available to everyone. Yeah, I think, you know, as we're... Well, right. Well, not the cheap side of it, but until it's not worth sharing,

you know, where you want to protect your moat or build a moat. 100%. But I do think that there are emerging problems that we don't really have answers for. So the VS code is probably one of the biggest open source projects. And I think last year, every year when we get to December, they do like a triage of the open issues. They spend December just trying to do spring cleaning essentially to get the repo down to a manageable number and clean up the backlog. And it was like a year ago, it was 8,000 issues. This year when we went into December, they were like, okay, how many issues are we working through?

It was 15,000 issues. Wow. Like, this is not, we have to figure out the process. And the team is actually doing this, right? So the VS code team doesn't just build VS code. They're also trying to figure out the AI processes for their own workflows that you use to create a tool, which has to be reliable. It has to be fast. It has to work.

It cannot go down. Right. We can't just ship a release where people are like, the editor doesn't work anymore. We can't do that. Catastrophe. Right. Exactly. And so it's a, like you said, there's different.

different kinds of software, but when we're talking about what we build for ourselves, that's one thing. But these teams, and I was just in Redmond talking with one of the engineers, Michael Lively, on the team who's just, that's what he's doing, is trying to figure out what are the workflows and putting them together so that the team can actually ship software with AI and have it remain at the quality bar that they are going to insist that it is. It just has to be a non-negotiable for people. Yeah. We should talk about, like your point about our developer is going to be replaced. We should talk about that because I have thoughts here. I know you do. Let's do it.

So what I see right now is this sentiment just keeps getting thrown out, but it isn't actually happening. Like, AI is taking jobs, but not in the sense that it's doing them. It's taking them in the sense that, like, if you're in tech, that is money that's being diverted to GPUs. Everybody's investing in GPUs and not headcount. And if you're in the enterprise, I think a lot of places are using it as an excuse to downsize, right? Like, it's just being, it's a convenient scapegoat. Right. But it isn't taking the job in the sense that, like, oh, we don't need you because now AI does what you do.

We're not there. models are extremely capable. And so I'm pessimistic that that's actually going to be the case. And I actually wonder if we don't end up with more developers. But then you start to ask, well, what is a developer exactly? And we even have looked at this at Microsoft. Like, am I an advocate? Am I a PM?

Am I an engineer? Or am I all of those things? Because I can now, if there's a feature that's missing, in VS code, I can open an issue or I could open a PR with three different implementations of that issue done with the AI and then we can either approve and say, yes, we're going to do this or we can just be like, no, we're not actually going to add this at this time, close it out, what do I care? It's a 15-minute job for me to create three different iterations. So it's like this age of abundance where I can contribute in a place where I before didn't have the time to.

I don't have time to sit down and learn the LLM API in the tool. I just don't. I have other things to do. But now I can actually, I can contribute. So am I an engineer? Am I an advocate? Am I a PM? And I think we're going to see more of this where like, what is it exactly that the job title is, right?

Is there such thing as just a developer anymore? If I'm in marketing and I need to build a, I need a quick page or something, can I just vibe that up? If I'm in sales, right, and I need a system that makes it easier for me to answer questions the customers have, can I just vibe that up? I mean, I don't know the answer here other than to say that it seems to me that like the AI is going to replace developers would be better stated as like AI everybody is going to be a developer at some level, maybe going forward. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I'm with you on that. I feel like calling everyone a developer is a slight challenge. Calling everyone a builder is more plausible. I think it comes down to. Why is, let me push back on that a bit, though, because I think that for us as developers, one of the things that we've always had over other people is that we have the knowledge and the skills that they don't have. And therefore, we're worth a lot of money. Yeah.

It's a lucrative feel. And we don't want to give that up. We don't want to give that up if we're just being honest. And I don't blame people for not wanting to give that up. Doesn't make you a bad person. But I think like we're still trying to gatekeep some concepts. We don't want these things to be available to everyone because then if they do, then we're in an existential crisis. I'm kind of for everyone being a builder, honestly.

I'd actually toy with creating a new podcast for, focused on the idea of builder. I was going to call it future builder. It was a double entendre. It was like, you know, you're literally building the future, and it's the future builders of tomorrow, in a sense. And as developers today, but tomorrow it's everyone's a builder. And I'm not sure the world's ready for that yet.

I'm not sure I'm ready to produce that kind of show yet, but I like the idea that everyone is a builder because, and the reason I feel that way, I talked to a good friend of ours, Damien Tanner, he runs layer code. And we talked recently on the podcast, and one of the things we talked about was that he just in time built something from himself. And then his sales team and sales folks just in time built dashboards for themselves. And so now you have production level software that's good for them because they're production of one.

They're the user of one, you know. They're not only the builder, but they're also the user of it. So it's good for me. It works. That's all it matters. I think that's super cool. I want that world to exist because the more people who can build software for themselves is going to be, there's a long toe upside for that. Yeah.

Whether or not, and the reason why I teeter on it, they're a developer or not is for the reason you said before, which was they have, they may miss this deep knowledge of, say, the Unix socket with Go, for example, or ETLs for me, or software development lifecycle. They don't understand this larger, truly developer world kind of thing. And maybe that will erode over time. And I'm fine with that too. I'm mostly fine with that. I think there's going to be more software and more people building software. And if we want to call them software developers, I'm cool with that. I'm zero about gatekeeping.

In fact, I invite them all. It's like saying it's no different than being anti-newby into our world. We've been so pro-newby for years and years and decades, basically, or at least this last decade been pro newbie and kind of anti-culling people juniors even like there's a lot of it's a pejorative i'm for everyone coming in i'm like a you know like um the one song arms light open kind of thing you know with arms wide the creed song yeah man creed all the way i love creed i'm a i'm a metal jams kind of guy yeah with arms wide open come on in come build it's going to get more fun more lively more software is better for the world and i think that as this

As this world evolves, as this thing evolves, we need more people to build good software. Bespoke software for personal use, bespoke software for just in time, business level functional personal software. And then truly platforms and production systems like our friends at Cloud, Flair just did with Open Next as an example of them using, you know, $1,200 bucks to take Next from what it was with, you know, Vestel only essentially and enabling Viet and all the process behind that. Like that's a different kind of thing

than you are in our building. But they've got a team and some smarts and some true talent that not so much you and I don't have, but they've got some skills behind that, behind those tokens. Yeah, you have to know a bit about what you're doing to pull that off.

If I was going to take the other side of the argument on what I just said, it would be that the reason why we recoil at this is because to, us to those us to me writing code for decades. It's a craft. It is craft. Right. And I remember when we in your post, I did. And when we had this big influx of people and even my kids when they were in high school, they're in college now. But it was this big push, you know, that everybody should

learn to code. And like literally everybody was in these coding classes because they wanted to make a ton of money. That's not a bad reason to want to be in, to want to learn to code. But they'd zero an interest in the craft. Right. And that's why so many, so few of them just made it out the end of the pipeline is because it's hard. It's hard. And it isn't fun and it's tedious. And you really have to enjoy the craft. And it's like AI is never going to write code that's up to our standards because it's not a craftsman. We're craftsman. AI is not. And so I do worry that we're building essentially like strip malls and track homes. Right. Whereas like if you go back in history in my town here, they were built. The homes that they built were just beautiful. And if you fast forward to today,

they're nothing, right? Even my house. It's just a brick square. And that's fine. I don't want to be ungrateful. But at the same time, can we even build? Can we build cathedrals, Adam, anymore? Does anyone even know how? I don't know that we do. And so I worry that we're not, we're going to forget how to build cathedrals. This should be the next blog post. Oh, yes. You know, I actually, I agree with that sentiment because I was recently in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And if you haven't been to Pittsburgh, it is a beautiful city. There's a lot of history there because it's one of the original 13 colonies.

There's a lot of history there. Whereas, you know, other places are sort of new. Everything is new. California, everything's new, you know, as an example. Nothing against California. It just doesn't have the same kind of history that Pennsylvania, Ohio, or other states might have. And I'm in downtown Pittsburgh and there's this courthouse where they literally conduct court. and it's just breathtaking.

It's massive, a massive, like, you know, craftsman level stone building that when my wife and I and our kids were walking through Pittsburgh, we're like, we got to go tour this thing. No one in Pittsburgh cares.

You got to go outside and see it. No one cares, right? Everyone who lives there, it's like, yeah, been there, done that, seen it.

Nobody's going there. And when my family's like, what did you do today? We're like, we toured the courthouse. I'm like, because it was beautiful. It was massive.

It was amazing. Like the level of quality of work it took to make that. And it was just breathtaking. I'll throw a foot on the show notes because it's just, it really is just breathtaking. And to your point. Do you think could we do that today? Right? Like, do you even possess the skills?

I think we do. There's a small margin of folks who do still have those skills. And because it's a rare skill, they can charge high dollars. And because they can charge high dollars. because it's a rare skill, it happens less. I don't think we can't do it. I think it's become such a smaller minority that does that kind of craft. And for those reasons, it's elevated and cost.

And for those reasons, it's just done less. Yeah, you never see it because it doesn't make any sense to do it. Only the hyper rich can afford it. And so only in the unique places where the hyper rich can afford it doesn't take place. For sure, it happens. It just doesn't happen. Right. But it used to be everywhere.

That just used to be, you know, how things got built. And it took a long time. Right. And it took time. It took years, decades for things to get built. And now we can throw these things up in a matter of months. Right? Like we can throw up a whole house in like less than three months.

It used to take years. But the thing is like the difference in the quality is unmistakable. Right? And so anyway, the analogy being is that are we moving into a place where like we look at software? I'm already at the point where people are like post stuff they built on X and I'm like, I'm not impressed because I know what you did. I know that because I can do it too. And how sad is that?

I remember people used to post stuff on like Hacker News about like these CSS transformations that they pulled off. And you're like, that's unbelievable. How did you do that? And now it's nothing. I can write a whole JavaScript framework by the time this podcast is over. I could literally enter that prompt and we'd have one. I'm not saying it would be good. But you see where I'm going with this, right?

It's like it's devaluing the thing. Let's talk about that, though. Okay, so there's things that are incumbent in the marketplace. I'm trying to think of like particular ones. Like NPM, for example. They say that NPM can't be unseated because of its ubiquity and because of its just tentacles out there. I think we're two or three.

I mean, this might actually hit closer to home because I just said NPM and I've forgotten where you work. I forget that GitHub owns that too all the time. Okay, good. I'm not throwing shots. It's just my example. But I kind of am in a way. Because we talked about this recently,

was that securing GitHub, or sorry, securing NPM is table stakes. And I do believe that. That's still the show we did recently with Nicholas Zakis. Oh, Zakis was on the show. He's awesome. Yeah. A lot of great things to say.

We talked about the details of that. And I think we're a couple major security issues. away, which you've already had a couple with NPM, away from the incumbent being threatened by a newcomer. If a newcomer came with the abilities of NPM and maybe a couple people with the seat that have the clout to be behind X, whatever X may be, not literally X.com, but whatever X as a variable may be, if we're a couple security issues away from NPM, having the possibility of people saying, you know what, if there was a number of people saying, you know what, if there was a number of people, was an alternative, I'd choose it. We're there. We're so close to that. There's a lot behind that. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot behind that. Let me think through that because I see where you're going with that, but then there's two things pop into my head. First of all, right now, people's appetite for risk seems to be ludicrous. Like, it's just crazy. Like, they are open for

risk or they're not open to it. Yes. They're just open to risk, right? Even my own, right? There's a flag that you can pass into the COBO. CLI. Yellow. Why not? CLA. YOLO. Exactly. It's a yellow flag. Just let the agent do whatever it wants. Right. Now, I have not been bitten by this yet. And there's some things that you can do to help mitigate this. But that is inherently super dangerous. OpenClaw is one of the coolest things I've seen. What a great project. Right. And you can lock it down, but you kind of have to, you have to do that. You have to lock down, say, well, only telegram, this telegram user. And you have to test and make sure that that's actually the case. Did that actually just happen? Or did it just tell you that it did it? And but I think that when it comes to things like NPM, one of the things that NPM has going for it is that these models are, they know so much about it. And they know how to use it. They know what these modules look like. There's all this history. It's in the training data.

Right. The second that you invent something else, well, now the model doesn't know what that is. And you can mitigate that by providing context and maybe future iterations will know. But it's like models are so good at using these established tools. For instance, like, I know I work at Microsoft, but if you want to have some fun chat, you can use Firebase. Models know everything there is to know about the Firebase CLI. So you can literally log in on your machine and then tell the agent to build something. Tell it it can stand up its own Firebase services, which are free, right?

You have to physically enable billing here. And it can do everything. It knows how to use the fire base CLI from front to back. That makes it really hard for you to supplant that with something else because people choose the path of least resistance. That's my immediate reaction to that is that it's just too easy. It's already there. Models already know how to use it.

And that makes it really, really hard to supplant it. but then again like we're just in a space where nobody knows anything no one if you take nothing from this podcast it's this listen chat knows anything no one knows what they're talking about that is the tlDR of this whole podcast you've said chat a couple times you've addressed it like chat what does that mean when you say that i think i know what you mean what you mean say that yeah sorry i mean i always call it mean i don't know i mean my kids say it all the time like when they're talking to their friends are like hey chat well it's like if you're a streamer and you're talking to chat.

Yeah, I think. I don't stream on a page. I understand what you mean now. Okay, cool. The audience. Gotcha. Sorry, yeah, sorry. Listeners. I guess for you, it would be listeners. Right. Well, it's okay. I just want to make sure I thought I knew what you meant, but then I wasn't sure if I knew exactly what you meant. Okay, so I think, here's an example, man, I'm trying to make sure I had the right kind of context for this.

Is there was, I thought it was entire.io, but I, and, you know, former CEO of GitHub. Oh, Thomas. Yeah. But wasn't there like a way to render diffs that was like re-implemented in like record time by different get hosts? And I'm just like paraphrasing that because I thought I saw some posts on a brand new diff out there. It wasn't entire. It was something else, I believe.

I knew. Could be. I wish I had the context. I don't have the context. I mean, I know, I know Reese over. I think that's how Reese has. It's R-H-YS. I apologize if I'm butch of your name.

Built faster GitHub, just, like, vived up this, like, really fast, super-fast interface for GitHub. So it's possible that that's 100% true. I think right now, like, everyone has to basically, you have to take your priors and just throw them out. Here we go. I think I might have this context. I think I might actually have it. Yeah. Here you go.

Diffs. Check this out. D-I-F-S. DIFs.com. A different rendering library. Now, I could be wrong, but I thought I saw some posts around this. So it's Pierre Computer Company,

Pierre.computer. They link out to code. Dot storage and link out to diffs.com. Now, this is burgeoning in the last week, so I'm catching up myself even on this, which is why I'm less versed in it. Maybe next week I'll be super steeped. But there is a,

and somebody out there's like, Adam shut up because you don't what you're talking about, but this is it, okay? These diff styles are just amazing. Somebody came out with this as a brand new startup that's been funded, and Pierre dot computers that, and one of their products is diffs.com. Now, I thought I saw a post that this is being implemented by folks faster than ever. And I don't know how that really relates to NPM, but just that you can go from the old way or a way or the known way or the incumbent way to a totally. new way because it's just revolutionary, really well done, and compatible. So I think the one thing that may be an NPM killing, I could be way wrong. And I could be just a pundit in this scenario, not so much somebody who's been an NPM user for many, many years. But I think that if you can come up with, if you can come up with an NPM compatible way and teach agents quickly enough, MPM could be threatened. The fact that it's that it's an incumbent and could

be no different than you have S3 compatible object storage out there. No different. I mean, you have Tigris. I'm user of Tigris. Tigris.com. Is it tigers.com? Tigersdaida.com, I believe. Yeah, Tigris.

Tigris Data.com. And they're S3 compatible. They have an amazing Go SDK. They used to have, they actually used to use the Amazon, the AWS S3, CLI SDK for me to use. And now I just use their native Go. SDK, just to go right to Tigris and it's S3 compatible. So no different than you can actually compete at the object storage level with R2,

which is a great example, T3, which is Tigris, or straight up S3, that you can compete on that level. So I don't know if being incumbent and being not known by agents, that you can quickly get versed in this world, so fast. Could be, yeah. You're absolutely right. I do think your points well made, though, that,

like nothing is nothing is nothing I don't say nothing is safe nothing's sake nothing is what you're going to say well software is so cheap to create now that if you're a software company like the odds that somebody can re-implement what you just did

on their own are pretty high and are not are only going to get higher right and so I don't know what that means other than to say that I don't think anyone is there is no one is safe. Everyone is going to have to reinvent themselves and think differently about things. They all have to forget our prior assumptions about literally everything. Yeah. Do you have a lens? Because you probably have a lot more colleagues than I do. I have zero now. It's just me. Some editors, but as you may know, Jerry recently retired from the show. Love him to death. No ill will. No drama whatsoever. Just change. But I'm literally a team.

team of one now. And so I have no colleagues, but you probably have colleagues, Burke. And so my question is this is given you have colleagues, and maybe it's not the case here, but I'm sure somewhere in Microsoft, are there people who are sort of not so much anti-AI, but resistant? Do you have awareness of their position, their posture towards what we're going through right now? Yeah, 100%, right? Like, I think that there's a strong contingent of devs out there even who were like, I would never let, you know, and they call them clankers and they call them slot machines. And they're not wrong, right? Like, these folks aren't wrong.

They're really pushing back and saying, like, this is a bad idea. I don't think this is good. And a lot of these folks are craftsmen, right? Like, they have a lot of pride and they're extremely good at what they do. But I do think that at this point, it's kind of like trying to hold back the wall. like you're trying to, you are trying to be the damn. Yeah. Like it's just, and so for those folks, first of all, you always need people to tell you that you're doing it wrong or that this is wrong. You need these people on literally every issue you can think of. If you don't have someone

questioning it and saying we should not be doing this, something is wrong. So I think that it's healthy to have that. But I do think that the inertia and the momentum here is these folks are, And I've seen a lot of them come around to where they say, like I was just talking to, who was it, Ryan Florence, who did React Router on Twitter last night. He said, I have not written a line of code in a month and a half. And I thought,

and I had responded and just said, I see more and more of this. I haven't written a line of code in quite some time. And Ryan Florence is no slouch. This guy knows what he is doing. He's a very, very smart. And so I think that I'm just seeing more and more of these

really like S-tier devs basically saying like AI is writing my code now that's what I would say to the people that are holdouts is just that I understand

that's a really hard time right now. We don't know what's going to happen like the threat is existential. It feels like the pandemic hit and then everything after that

has just been uncertainty on top of uncertainty. Amen. We just want to go back but you can't go back. It just gets worse. No. It's here. It's here to stay. And it's part of me, it's like it's never been more exciting to build. And then the other part of me just grieves. It just grieved. Like, like I, you know, like I'm just, it hurts. It's a loss. And so all I can tell people who are resistant is that I understand how you feel. Well, friends, this episode is brought to you by my good friends over at Notion. We use Notion here at ChangeLog. I love it. It is so helpful. It keeps me on track. Notion agents, notion AI, notion all the things.

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And when you use our link, you know you're supporting this show. And we love that. So, notion.com slash changelog. There's a book. Okay. I'm going to recommend this book, and you may have read this book, Burke. Who moved my cheese? Oh, man.

That's a classic. Right? Yeah. Do you know the story well? It's been a while since I've read it. Yeah. But I know, yeah, I essentially know. fundamentals. But go ahead.

Well, I don't know by heart. I just know, I just know you have scurry and you have him and you have ha. And essentially the story is, is there's cheese. There's mice, right? They're in this maze and there's cheese. And there's been abundance of cheese in this area for a while and they're all going back there. And one day they go back there and the cheese is gone. This represents change, right? Okay. Used to come every day. Get our daily cheese. Enjoy, enjoy. Come back. whatever. And then him and Ha kind of keep coming back. He's coming back.

And the cheese is just never there again. Meanwhile, Scurry is gone. Looking for the cheese. And I think as sad as it makes me to say that, to lament that idea for us that this craft is changing. And truly I am.

But if we sit there, if that story is true at all for anybody, if we sit there like him and ha and worry about the cheese and it didn't move or it did move or where is it going to be at and they're just so worried and anxious about that future meanwhile scurrie just was like out of here going to go find the cheese i think we have to take that into consideration we have to find a way to move around the value chain and we have to adapt because otherwise we'll be like him and how will be in the past meanwhile scurry found the new cheese and this is back to this new world to they're going to enjoy it again

I think we have to figure out that kind of way. And I want to mention a friend of mine, John Daniel Trask. He is the co-founder and CEO of Raygun and recently of Auto Hive. And you may know Raygun, they've been an error tracker for and performance platform and, you know, CoreWeb vitals for, you know, years. Stand-up soft are amazing team. And John Daniel Trask said this recently. geez I thought I had that I had a couple of his bookmark let me find his actual other one give me a sec he's like I've been yeah I've been a for 34 years I've been a development or sorry he says 34 years of development experience here haven't manually written the line of code in about 18 months now he is one of these examples of a CEO coming back out of retirement so to speak and writing code again but I know John Daniel Trask and he's always been in the details. He's always been a tinkerer. He's always been on the side doing something while it may not be

production rig on code or something like that. And I'm just only speaking from my awareness, not his truth. But he said, I haven't written a manual line of code in about 18 months, never have had higher output. Shocks me how few have adapted yet, though. Yeah. And that's why, you know, our audience, some may be like Adam shut up or my gosh, why do you keep talking about AI? and I think it's just natural because it is the it is the it's the conversation out there.

The cheese is moving or is moved. How do you adapt? Yeah, we get this on VS code all the time because as you can imagine, there's this, there's, VS code has, I don't know what the public number we share is millions of users.

It's astronomical. Yeah, and a lot of these folks, a lot of these folks, they just want to live their life, right? They just want to write code. And most of the updates that we make are in the realm of AI. And people rightfully get upset. And they're like, why, where is the rest of the stuff like for the editor? And the truth is that this is the direction that everything is going.

Like it just is. In order to remain a relevant tool, V-S code has to adapt and move. and meet developers where the future is. But it has to do that while still supporting the devs who need to open up index.js and be productive with their code today with no AI. And so it's a focus on doing both, but I understand, and we hear that feedback, and we understand how you feel.

We understand, but that is not the direction that things are headed is very much agentic in AI. That is just where the industry is going. And in order to be a relevant tool, you have to move in that direction too. Do you think we'll get to a point a year from now, two years from now? And I know this will be major step function changes as we keep progressing. But do you think we'll get back to that while this was a handcrafted piece of software? And then that person or those persons or that kind of team is like, we only build handcrafted software here.

You like art artisanal. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, it may be even charge a major premium. I don't know. Like, well, I, so let's use an analogy. It's like you could go, if you could buy a piece of furniture today, let's say you needed a dresser.

You could buy from somebody who has handmade that. They've rounded the edges themselves. They've used the lathe, right? It's beautiful. They stained the wood. I do some woodwork. Are you a carpenter? You know all these terms. I love it.

A little bit. I've done some work myself. I think if you're a developer, you just like to build things. So I like, I like Lego. I like woodworking. I like knitting. Knitting is very much like a building type activity. And so, but then the answer is, well, you can buy that for, you know, $350. Or you can go to Walmart and you can buy a particle board proximity of this thing for 25. And the question is whether or not that matters. Most people are going to choose the $25 particle board thing, right?

Or maybe they get someone in the middle. But it's really a luxury when you go out and you say, like, there isn't a logical reason to do that other than you want to own a piece of handcrafted furniture. And I just don't see, because software's digital, I don't see people caring. I do think that there's, I'm already at the point where I'm like, I can't believe we used to write every line of code by hand. Adam, do you remember this? We used to literally type function, space, bracket, return. And maybe like in occasion you can the tag complete some things.

It blows my mind when I think about that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or even this is we used to code with AI via tab completion. not like write the whole file right just write that oh that yeah that but we we just a line we moved on from that so quickly like because co-pilot when co-pilot first came out it was ghost

text and auto complete and and i when they first showed it to us internally i was like oh my gosh i'd never seen anything like it i had no idea that we would go from there that was listen to me audience listeners chat that was like three years ago That was three years ago. It was. Today, we are in a totally different spot. And in fact, a year ago, there was no agent mode in Visual Studio code. There was an edit mode.

Fast forward a year later. And we have full-on, like, agenic workflows from GitHub, which is something that was just announced, right? Agents have memory. They can do deep research. You can deploy. You can type fleet in the GitHub copilot CLI, and it will deploy a fleet of agents. It will determine how many to deploy, what to focus them on, how to divide up the work. Like, we're moving at a click that is really hard to wrap your head around.

And even me, like, when I see stuff that's coming up internally, I'm like, what the heck is that? What even is that? I don't understand what that is. Can we please slow down to five seconds? I just learned this thing today. Right. Exactly. Learning this day today.

Right. This daily release of something. Yeah. We're in the ultimate season of Bill, Bill, Bill. You know, I think it goes back to developers, developers, developers, maintainers, maintainers, to throwback. And I think the, very much so. I'd love to see someone at Microsoft stand up on the stage and say, build, build, build.

Because that's the era we're in, right? Just to just to throw back to the old day of developer developer. I totally agree. Like we're in, this is like, there's two ways to think about it. It's like this is the death of developers or this is the second coming, baby. I think it's the second coming. I agree. I completely agree.

Yeah. For the next, I would say, let me try to predict this. And I'll come back to this stage here again, if I'm wrong. I don't know. I was going to say 10 years, but I feel that's a long time. Oh, that's an eternity. It is an eternity. I feel like, I mean, well, I don't want to say developers going to die anytime soon because that would be just a absolute shame. But I think making software is not going to change. We need smart folks with awareness, intent, understanding, moral high ground, etc. to craft. and mold the platforms, protocols, and software built on them over the next forever, perpetuity. I think we should always have, I mean, software is for humans largely. And I think actually, I'll take that back. A lot of software is actually being built for agents to make better software for humans to make better software, which is a weird cycle. But I would say for the next five years, at least, for the next five years, it's a whatever developer is world. You know, whatever a developer is going to be, it's that world. It's time to build.

So go build. It's available to you right now. It does, back to my notion of toll booth, there is a toll booth in front of that. You know, we used to have to buy an IDE. And then maybe in the case of VSCO we didn't because it was open source and free. But subsidized by Microsoft, right? Bringing on more users to the platform, more users for Azure, et cetera. Subsidize elsewhere.

You know, and thankfully, you've got an amazing team building Viscope. for all these years, just diligently building some of the best software known demand. I have some quirks with it, but that's okay. I'm personally a Z user. I like Z. That's a good editor. Yeah. There's so many great dev tools out there.

That's the other thing that's how to tell people is that you can't lose. All of them are good right now. So no matter which one you pick, first of all, they're about all on par at this point, and they're all excellent. You can't make a bad choice. You really can't. I mean, we're in the plethora of amazing. software. We're in the plethora of change and we're in the plethora of making your own thing and potentially making something that everybody else loves to. I mean, take Peter Steinberg.

I mean, just three weeks ago, I was DMing with him. Now I can't get a return. Why? He's super busy. Right? We're just talking about the most famous man in the world. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he went from coming back from retirement, solving his own problem, releasing it for others, having a great product direction with it and working his absolute tail off on it to now being called a genius by Sam Altman and working for OpenEI to keep building OpenClaw in the open. And there could be positives and negative that because there always is. But he went from, you know, peer to transcendent now. I mean, he's still talking to the world. I'm not going to say he's not.

But he's definitely a busy person now. And I think he's got some really good taste, which I think is really important in this next era is taste in software. You can't just come like you said before to a boot camp thinking that software developers make a lot of money. Therefore, I make software so I can make a lot of money. You really have to enjoy the end, not just the means. Like the means is software creation, is software developer. But you have to enjoy the end too and you have to have clear developer user experience and user. and user experience and good intent

and ability to specify what should be in the world from where we're currently at. I think that's the homework that we can keep honing and exercising as craft folks. I think that's very well said. And to your point, Adam, about like Peter,

this is a really good example because it's not like Peter was just a guy that showed up and was like, I think I'm going to build something with AI. This guy's a really good developer. Like he previously solved an extremely hard problem. So yes, it happened rapidly, but we're also talking about an individual that's extremely

high-level engineer, extremely capable, right? So it doesn't lend credence to this idea that you don't need to be a developer, but rather that if you are a really good developer, that you really can really do anything. Yeah. We're in the era of polymath. Are you familiar with this term polymath? Yeah. Okay.

I think we're in the area of that. I think if you are a developer that's been seasoned quite a bit, maybe you haven't dabbled in everything that you possibly could have. But you've been aware. Maybe you've been listening to this podcast for many, many years. We've never been a Ruby camp or a JavaScript camp or a TypeScript camp or a Go Only or a Rust Only. We've never been agnostic to the software landscape, so to speak, very clearly for those reasons, because we've been talking about and touching so many different areas. I think you've been paying attention to the show where you go back in its history. and you connect those dots, now you're a polymath of source.

You can come with some version of context and get drafted into polymath. If you can begin to connect dots, you can become a polymath, I think, in this kind of world here. Because AI will help you do that, and it's already smarter than most of us, and it just needs us to kind of guide it a little bit. And I say, for now. For now it needs us to guide us. Yeah, I agree. And I had actually tweeted out something like last week or something where I was working on

something. I wanted to build something. And I asked the AI about it. It was like, oh, yeah, you should use, we should use go. You should use go to do this. And I thought, I don't know go. And then I remembered, that doesn't matter at all. So it's like, like, I was this close to just being like, no, I don't want to do that. I don't know go. But then remembering, oh, that doesn't, that's irrelevant. I can, I can actually learn it and let the agent do it as I go. I can still do it. and that is the thing that people are going to have to do right now is they're going to have to start thinking differently. Everything you know has to be rethought, literally everything. The next time you think that can't be done, the answer is probably absolutely can be done.

And you have to, it's just, it's like, I don't want to say think different, right? I don't want to say, it's hackneyed to say you can do with anything with AI. You just have to figure out what that thing is. If AI isn't useful, it's your problem, not the AI. But at some level, there is truth to this in the sense that the limiting factor is you. It's me. It's my preconceived notions about what can and can't be done and what I'm willing to not or not do with the AI. That's it.

Yeah. I've gotten a lot of fruit in my labor around planning. I've thought a lot about certain problems. And now, there are personal problems for now. And at some point, I'll start launching more things. and I've mentioned that on this podcast and I'm not going to go into it here necessarily, but I've found a lot of value in just planning

because in some cases I'm learning new ground. I'm very well in one area, but kind of mediocre in like 17 other areas. And so I'm taking those 17 of those areas and I'm thinking deeply and I'm spending time learning and I'm not in a rush to get to the end. I'm kind of settling in the means in a way. I'm learning about different protocols

or a different way of doing things or just zooming out a little bit to being like, wow, you know what? This is actually, I hadn't played with that. I hadn't considered how I would connect to this. And I just sort of like steep, I would say, steep in that craft part of it is learning about what's possible. And then making a decent plan and then executing that plan. That's kind of been my ground there is just really just enjoying that learning process again. And the process of like making something and iterating with it, discovering learning, discovering learning and shipping.

that's been quite fun to kind of solve my own problems because there's been areas where I just haven't like I have never built this much software in my entire life than I have in the last six months. Yeah, right? A hundred percent. A bit of ton of software. Largely behind the scenes, but that's okay for now.

But I think as I level up and as AI is obviously leveled up, like we're only a few months away since Opus 4 or 5, which I think is what changed the world for a lot of folks, That was a major step function in the right direction. And now it's like, well, the world really is a developer's oyster. So. Yeah, and we should point out that Opus 4-5 kind of like, to me, kicked off, started something. But it is not the only model, right?

Now we have 4-6. There's 4-6 fast. There's 4-6 with a 1 million context window. 5-3 is an outstanding model. 5-3 is unbelievably good. Gemini is a great model, right? They just released 3-1. Great model, right?

So these model companies are really going at it, trying to deliver the best coding experience. And developers, listen, we're the ones who win, right? We're getting all the best tools. We're getting all the best models. That's right. Now's the time. So I agree with you.

I've never built so much software in my life. And I'll have an idea. I'll be like, oh, I wonder if I can do that. And then I'll just go do it. I'll just build it. And you may throw it away. who cares? It doesn't matter.

There's going to come a point where tokens need to be counted and matter. That is not this point right now. So throw the agent in a while loop and let it just run for days on end. What do you care, right? Well said, well said. I'm personally getting some really good enjoyment from Codex. GPT 5.3 has been really cool. I feel like when I play with that thing, it spits things back to me.

I'm like, can you explain it to me like I'm five? because I don't even know what you just said. You're just so next level in how it responds. I'm like, you think I have the context here, but I'm not following you because you're way smarter than I am. Can you please just, just don't get a little bit? Yeah. Somebody described 5'3 as like a really, really senior dev.

And like Opus 4-6 is like your best friend. Yes. And so they're different in the way they interact. And so like I said, I use 4-6. I interface with 4-6 and it just delegate to work to 5-3. because I actually don't want to interface with the 5-3. I know that it's a really good dev, so I want it writing code,

but I want to talk to 4-6 because it's always like, oh, yeah, you know what? You're totally right. I'd miss that. You're so smart. We should talk. That's the gas lighting.

It's like, yeah, you're so smart. Yeah, makes me feel good. Yeah, makes me feel good about myself. I'm with you on that. I've been actually doing that exact step, which is I've used Opus 4-6 to do planning and then delegate it to 5-3, GPT, 5-5-3,

for those exact reasons because I'm like, you know, I thought I was smart but now I'm talking to you. I feel like I'm just not that smart anymore or it's just not as nice. It's like, Adam, can you just pick it up here? I'm like, I want to be 10 steps down the road here and you're holding me back here.

Yeah. Which is part of the battle here. What else you want to say, Burke? I know that we got lots to say. You got some cool stuff you're working on the GitHub co-Pilot CLA. I didn't even mention that really. I think it's a beautiful thing.

Great work on that front there. I mean, there's a, the world is the oyster, for the next coding CLI to kind of keep iterating, you got open code out there, you got Claude, you've got Codex, you've got a Copilot CLI, you got all the things out there. What do you want to stay in closing? Yeah, I would just like to say, you know, for me, because I've been working on the Copilot CLI, that's exciting.

And it just went GA today. And GA is just our way of saying, like, it's ready for production use because we have so many enterprise customers and they won't touch anything until, yeah, just today. Wow. And they can't use anything until that thing is out of preview. It has to be stable, right? They have to know that it's supportable and usable. And so today you can start using that.

And I would just tell people, like, I'm super excited about the stuff that is being done to make AI even better so that you don't have to compose these like hacky workflows or make Ralph loops, whatever the heck that is or use a gas town. Like there's all these crazy ideas and terminology being thrown around. And the truth is that like you don't have to use any of that stuff. just start working with the agent and see what works for you and create your own. You're smart. You'll figure out the workflows.

You can make the agent do anything. Don't. Don't. I know it's easy to get overwhelmed. Trust me, I know. Yeah, very easy. But just use it and figure out the workflows that make you most productive

and you're all ready. If that's all you do, you're already in like the top 5% of folks at the moment. Yeah. I would say don't delay. And I really, really don't delay. If your pocketbook can handle it, get the smallest version of things.

If it can go further, go further. And I would do that based upon graduated usage, of course. So you'll hit limits and it'll give you that feedback of like, hey, you've hit your plan limit kind of thing. But I definitely would not delay. My list of things to work on is so long. And tell me if this is your world here that this morning when I woke up and I thought, I know what I got to do today. And I know my daily task, I've got to get done.

But in terms of projects and moving things forward, I was like, I have to really, really work hard to prioritize because I have ADHD. I like to have novel problems to solve. And that's where my brain just really thrives. And so I try my best to push back on the Adam who wants to go the easier route, which is solve brand new problems and never actually finish and deliver. Right. To really kind of push the thing that really should go next over that. hurdle to be usable by not just one but by many, which is really my biggest issue with my software. But I really have to work hard to be disciplined because I am kind of overwhelmed

in what I could do, what I should do, and what I want to do, that it takes a lot of discipline in this world. So I would say, be careful out there, y'all. You are cracking up in something that could not be go back in your bottle, so to speak. But I've got always. And it's very, very hard. And I have to be very disciplined to be balanced in my life and then also balanced in the work I put out there in terms of software. Yeah. And this is a whole other podcast, Adam. You should probably have on, I'm trying to think it would be great to talk about this,

kind of like it's almost like a psychosis. Oh, yeah. But this is a whole other podcast. But like, do be careful, y'all. Once you open this box, you can't shut it. And this is all you will do. It's all you will think about. It's all you will do.

It will consume your brain. I know this because I, I do it. I'm doing it in my sleep. In my sleep, I'm doing it. And so I think that that's, that's the next podcast episode we need from the change log here. It's like, what is this doing to us exactly? Yeah, I think it's, I mean, I don't want to be doom and gloom, but I do have a slight concur on that because I think, before I leave my office, I think, what could I kick off while I'm gone? Yep. But then I have to really push back and see, you know what? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Every moment is a wasted moment. You could be building.

Right now, what are you doing? I know, why am I talking you, Burke? I could be making some bangs, you know. You could have built a 100,000 MRR project, and instead you did this. It's quite possible. It really is quite possible. Who knows, man? I don't know.

I don't know. But hey, thank you so much for opening our eyes back in January to many and then coming on the pod to kind of go into some of those details about Opus 4-5 changing things for the game and just sharing some of the backstory there. And thank you for the recommendation on the agent psychosis. I believe is what you're referring to because I don't know what to call it like yeah well it's it's a term it's a term out there it's a it's a household name so to speak now this age and psychosis is like am I crazy that I think I could do these things because it can do these things and my suddenly

superhuman or super powered because it's super powered then you have to be like maybe not yeah if I jump off this building will I fly you will my my neo right now okay yeah am I am I seeing the ones that's I'm actually seeing the full. Am I seeing the lady in the red dress? What is happening here? Brick, thank you so much. It's been awesome, man. Thank you.

Thanks for having me, Adam. Well, it is a new world here at the change log, and it is a new world in our developer landscape. AI is here. You could be on the fence. You could be against it. You can be for it. You can be in between.

You can resist it. You can do all the things. But I think the one truth is, it's just not going back in the bottom. It is the new way. The developer landscape. escape the operating system is being rebuilt on top of AI. This is not hype.

This is real. This is here. And I want to talk to you about that in Zulip. Changelaw.com slash community. Free to join. Zulip chat is for you. Come share your thoughts. Come comment on this episode.

Come hang with friends. Hang your hat. Call it home. All the good things. And to our plus plus subscribers, hey, you know what? It's still here. ChangeLaw Plus Plus, it's still better. It's better. You know what? So much about the change log will get better. Not because it was bad, but because there's always room for improvement. Entropy can not be resisted. It is the way. And change law plus plus is better. There's a bonus on this episode. Burke and I go a little deeper, a little more closer to the metal, as they say. And you can do that if you're not already a plus plus subscriber by going to changelog.com slash plus plus, 10 bucks a month, 100 bucks a year, drop the ads, get a little closer to the

metal, get bonus content, and support our show. And here in closing, I do want to say one more thank you to my good friend, Jared, because you know what, this show is better because of you, my friend. And I'm grateful for our work together. I'm grateful for our friendship over the years. I'm grateful for you, and you will be missed by me, by the audience. Take care my friend. I'll see you out there. Okay. This episode has sponsors. We love our sponsor because, hey, they pay the bills and that's what we like. We like bills getting paid. Our friends at Augment Code. Now, I love Augie. Seriously, Augie is my one-shot tool. Okay, if you heard it on the podcast, that's cool. I love it. Augie is my one-shot tool. Of course, I use Squarespace for my small

business. My wife friends and company is amazing, and she cannot do it without Squarespace. And of course, Notion, my gosh, I love Notion. Keeps me organized. Notion agents, notion AI. It is so cool. Of course, check them out, notion.com slash changelog, Squarespace.com slash changelog. And just augmentcode.com.

Well, one thing that's not changing around here is the beats. Brapemaster is our beat freaking residence for life. We have a fun project that we're working on. Very, very fun. And it's coming soon. It's coming soon. That's it. show's done we'll see you we do have a plus plus version of it if you have one or two more things

to say our time uh sure a small paying audience but it's mostly for the the loyalist of loyalist fans of change law that's what do you think they'd want to know about anything the down and dirty was what's dirty we didn't throw out there i didn't even ask you about um in the main show like has this changed your lens on how you think about your future you know has this new ability this new superpower giving you the desire to change anything major. Maybe that's something. How are you thinking about your career, I suppose? Yeah, that's a great question.

I think I'm like everyone in that I don't know what the next six months holds. And that's the hardest part of at the moment is that there's so much uncertainty. For me personally, my skill set is a code, it is an intersection of technology and communication. That's what I do. I've never been a great developer. I've always been a good one. But I'm not the kind of dev where you could say, hey, we need to completely rethink the way the editor buffer works in Visual Studio Code.

We're going to need you to figure out what I'm not that guy. There's a guy in the channel.