The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - Putting the Apple in AI (Friends)

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

Justin Searls joins us for hot takes on Apple's 2024 WWDC keynote. Apple Intelligence stole the show, but did it steal our hearts? Oh, and we learn all about Justin's Vision Pro Life and how he hopes/expects Apple's latest device to improve in future iterations.

Welcome to Changelog and Friends, a weekly talk show about that last critical GPU. Big thanks to our partners at Fly.io, the home of changelog.com. Launch your app close to your users. Fly makes it easy. Find out how at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk. What's up, friends? I'm here with a new friend of mine, Jasmine Cassis, product manager at Sentry.

She's been doing some amazing work. Her and her teams over many years being at Sentry and her latest thing is just awesome. User feedback. You can now enable a widget on the front end of your website powered powered by Sentry, that captures user feedback. Jasmine, tell me about this feature. Well, I'm Jasmine. I am a product manager at Sentry and I'm approaching my three year anniversary. So I've spent a lot of time here.

I work on various different customer facing products. More recently, I've been focused on this user feedback widget feature, but I've also worked on session replay and our dashboards product. products. More recently, I've been focused on this user feedback widget feature, but I've also worked on session replay and our dashboards product with user feedback. I am particularly excited about that. We launched that a few weeks ago. Essentially, what it allows you to do is it makes it very easy to connect the developer to the end user, your customer. So you can immediately hear from your basically who you're building for, for your audience. And you can get basically have a good understanding of a wide range of bugs.

So Sentry automatically detects things like performance problems and exceptions. But there are other bugs that can happen on your website, such as broken links or a typo or permission problem. And that is where the user feedback widget comes in and it captures that additional 20 percent of bugs that may not be automatically captured. I think that's why it's so special. And what takes it a step level above these other feedback tools and these support tools that you see is that when you get those feedback messages, they're connected to Sentry's rich debugging context and telemetry. Because often I've seen it myself, I read a lot of user feedback,

messages are cryptic, but they're not descriptive enough to really understand the problem the user is facing. So what's great about user feedback is we connect it to our replay product, which essentially basically shows what the user was doing at that moment in time right before reporting that bug. And we also connect it to things such as screenshots. So we created the capability for a user to upload a screenshot so they could highlight something specific on the page that they're referring to. So it kind of removes the guesswork for what exactly is this feedback submission or bug report referring to. Now, I don't know about you, but I have wanted something like this on the front end pretty much since forever.

And the fact that it ties into session replay, ties into all your tracing, ties into all of the things that Sentry does to make you a better developer and to make your application more performant and amazing. It's just amazing. You can learn more by going to sentry.io. That's S-E-N-T-R-Y.io.

And when you get there, go to the product tab and click on user feedback. That will take you to the landing page for user feedback. Dive in, learn all you can. Use our code CHANGELOG to get $100 off a team plan for free. Now, what she didn't mention was that user feedback is given to everyone. So if you have a Sentry account, you have user feedback. So go and use it. If you're already a user, go and get it on your front end. And if you're not a user, well then, hey, use the code changelog get 100 bucks off a team plan for three-ish months almost four months once again sentry.io

all right we're here with our friend justin searles back from the land of the rising sun isn't that japan is that what they call it? That is what they call it. What they call themselves, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Six weeks. That's long. I was there. Well, I had to go because Ruby Kagi was there, and that was three whole days in the middle.

And then I just sort of padded it out on either side. That's a big pad. Yeah, well. Yeah, right? I had a good time. What do you do when you go to Japan? Well, I've been learning the language since I was 18. And so started with a trip with my wife and I, we also like lived there for a year.

And she was a teacher, an English teacher in Nara for a year. And so we've made a bunch of friends over the years. And so the first week and a half was like, hang out with them. Then we went to Okinawa via the most circuitous and ridiculous path possible, a bunch of overnight ferries and stuff. And that was where the Ruby Kaigi conference was, which was again, fabulous conference. If you're at all interested in Ruby, the programming language, this is the best Ruby conference in the world. And it's a lot of fun and it's a super welcoming and everything's translated. So table that. I was just going to

ask that. Yeah. Yeah. Then I went to a parted becky and i had like two weeks of solo travel time and the goal for me is always to maximize well two things really one language practice so like i want to meet people practice the language which is you know can be hard to do just to meet a bunch of strangers over the course of two weeks traveling all all over and two is eat as much good food as possible so i did a tour of normally if you go up and down the main island of japan you're actually it's the southern coast from tokyo to like osaka that you're traveling so i went out of my way to actually for the first time travel the north coast along the japan sea which is famous for really good seafood so i hit a whole bunch of

cities that most people have never been to and uh where there aren't so many tourists and so I was able to sidle up at a whole bunch of izakayas and and chat with people and eat a lot of really tasty fish so I would recommend it you want to speak some Japanese right now that's a no I have a phrase I've been wanting you to say as you've been sharing your story oh god are you ready to hear it? I'll hear it. The changelog is the best podcast ever. Changelog is the best podcast ever. I forgot the word podcast.

I love it. Changelog is the best, and then I was like, oh, I forgot to say the word podcast. Podcast. Say podcast again in japanese podcast it's a podo casto so it's a kya casto instead of just yeah casto cool i love that language and really i just do it's such a beautiful language

it's like uh yeah it's perfect for the male voice i've never really i guess maybe listen to many female speakers speak japanese but it's such a like a uh like a growling there's some growling in there there's like definitely like some you know in there yeah yeah and the uh the more manly you want to present yourself the growlier it gets right which is why i find women way easier to understand. Ah, less growling. Because they actually enunciate. Yeah. Men are like, ugh. That's cool. Thank you for appeasing my desires here. Because I do believe that the Change Love podcast is the best podcast ever.

And so there you go. That's why we're here. Good way to start a podcast. That is why we're here. We're also here because of the best keynote ever. Oh, yeah. I don't think so, but I just felt like that made sense to say in context of the previous sentence. And I'm just an auto-completer.

You know, that's what I do. I just pick the next best word for any given sentence. You better watch out. Your job is under threat. Oh, it sure is. It may have been the biggest, not the best but the biggest keynote i would say for apple in a while and not just because of like product but because of all of the hype and push and right pull around now i guess they want to brand it apple intelligence

right like ai has been as you know jared uh i mean i mean, speaking to the choir here, I'm sure you know as well, Justin, but we went to Build at Microsoft Build and I just think we couldn't stop talking about AI because that's all they talked about. Google I.O. was all about it. And now we've just sort of been waiting for Apple to unveil whatever they may or may not do around this.

Now, obviously, the Open AI Partnership was talked about weeks ago so we knew something was coming they couldn't sit that much longer siri could not sit and be siri old version it had to be and i'm like my i have to turn my phone off because siri just like was talking to me now you know she they whatever the robot that is siri could not continue to be as unintelligent as it had been so it's it they were primed to do something. But you know, the funny thing about DubDub is that for years and years, it was genuinely a developer-focused conference that mostly went under the radar.

But then at some point during the Steve Jobs renaissance, they started releasing more big products and using it because they're trying to get into this annual cadence of media events. Like when they stopped going to Macworld. So I think they've sort of settled into this thing for the last seven or eight years where every couple years there might be a big thing. Like last year was Vision Pro. Or a year before that was the Mac Studio unveil. And it was always on their terms. But this year, and we'll talk about the

keynote, but like it was the biggest impression that it made on me was there. If you're watching it, and you're used to watching these, you're like they are flying through these operating system updates, like they're going to have them all done inside an hour when normally that's the whole show. And so the, the sort of pretext that this is a developer conference, and that this keynote is developer-related was totally out the window. Because now it's an extrinsic pressure from shareholders and the media and whatnot, and I'm sure Apple marketing, that they had to grab the bull by the horns and just talk about AI as much as possible and get out ahead and craft their own narrative around it.

So it really didn't. It felt very, I mean, I don't know if you felt this way, but watching the keynote felt super bifurcated for that reason. Yeah, it was like, let's get all this stuff, which is nice and cool. And actually the things that I get kind of excited about, like the minor details of the next Mac OS that are going to just be a small feature

that changed my life a thousand times a week in a small way. I like that kind of stuff. Like, let's all that over with. And then we can actually talk about AI, which is now Apple intelligence, of course. And it is long overdue. I mean, the pressure has been on them. I remember last year in the run-up to WWDC, we were talking with Simon Wilson about Gen AI or something like this. And I i was like my prediction last year was apple is going to reinvent siri with language models involved in a few weeks you know and then they didn't and a year later of course and they're known for being kind of slow and methodical and

really trying to you know create a product that they can be proud of versus beating people to the punch or playing catch up really quickly and having egg on their face like google has repeatedly made attempts to just like read well most recently redo search which is their cash cow uh too much failure and ire i mean i can't i just am still dumbfounded that google rolled that product out with the way that it was currently working i don't know i know we're not here to talk about google and google search but oh we are it's it's all the thing it's such a different philosophy and i mean i don't know if you guys were impressed by what they've crafted but i thought wow it's a pretty cohesive story they They're differentiated.

Obviously, I do think the ChatGPT integration is a weird consolation thing for being slow and behind. Maybe you guys can bounce back on that. But overall, I thought their approach does seem like, to me, the most compelling product yet. Obviously, it's just demos at this point coming this fall. All that being said, I feel like they did a pretty good job with their strategy. It's interesting, too. I think Google is always Google, Meta, and to an extent Microsoft if you think of them more as a

B2B company, although I think they've done a good job transitioning to being a consumer oriented company. Google and Meta, you get good at what you do, and they don't make their money taking dollars from Jared and Adam and Justin. The people paying them are somebody else, and all of the reinforcing feedback loops inside of their broader system. Marketing is like an accident that happens sometimes, and products are things that come and go for, you know, almost as a way to keep engineers retained as much as, you know, something that's vital to their business.

So of course it's not, it's not shocking, you know, when they're finally faced with an existential threat to the thing that makes the money that they're completely caught flat footed and flailing because they don't know how to ship a product. Sorry if you're a Google fan or something, but it's like their organization's lifeblood that is new revenue and profitability has nothing to do with the normal cadence of bringing something new to market

for actual users to use and buy. Gmail and Google Maps, the two most famous things that everyone loves were total accidents. And everything else was purchased, pretty much. I don't know how you guys want to have this conversation, to be honest, because I think maybe in the two halves, because you called them, I don't know if you called them quality of life improvements, but I kind of feel like sometimes people talk about that like it's a pejorative, but I'm like, actually, I would love for the quality of my life to improve. That's what I i'm saying i'm here for it i love it like if you look at my list

of things that were exciting to me it's like i'm on the mac os sequoia preview page and i'm just scrolling it thinking like i can't wait for this sucker to come out you know so we can definitely start there and the thing that was surprisingly the hit, aside from Apple intelligence and the new Siri, what everyone's talking about, calculator app. Woo-hoo! iPad users rejoice. And a very cool demo of the new iPad calculator. I'm not an iPad user, but again, quality of life improvement.

Why doesn't the iPad have a calculator? Now it does, and it's a cool one. That's cool. Well, and, and to, uh, to recap, if you didn't watch the keynote, what was cool about it is it has pencil support and you can just draw, you know, this is going to go down as one of the coolest, like the best demos, the demo to actual people using this ratio is going to be hilarious, right? Because like the demo is just phenomenal you draw the free body diagram that you have nightmares about from high school right of all of the like you know the throwing the basketball and and and and that you're trying to figure out the arc and the cosine and stuff and then you write down the equation and then

you just put equals and then you draw a line and you're like you know you cross your fingers that it'll recognize it and then it writes the answer for you. Then you can change any of the other variables and it'll update the answer. You can tell that they had something like that and the reason that they're finally shipping a calculator app to the iPad was to show that off. For sure, because it demos so well. It's just so impressive. It's the stuff out of the future right i mean you basically take your story problem you know that your teacher gives you and you just write it down

with your pencil you know and draw some little diagrams and lay it out and then like boom goes to dynamite it's but again i don't think i mean i would probably i don't even have an ipad but i think some of that is in... Math Notes have come also to the Notes app, and I'm not sure if that's in there or that's just the iPad calculator. But regardless, I will probably never use this feature myself. I think that... Here's a great little microcosm, though,

of how Apple's marketing is effective, where because the imagined student is drawing all this, you feel like, oh, they're doing work. But the fact that it's arriving at the answer means the student's not learning anything. They're just doing that rote drawing exercise. But the demo, if this was an open AI keynote, would be take a picture of the problem

and then it'll draw the picture or it'll just jump to the solution for you. And that, to the average viewer, is like, oh, now you're cutting the student out of the equation. So here the student still exists, but their job is just to use these fancy devices to draw with a pencil, even though they don't end up learning math.

I mean, we're losing the point of that learning math is about learning math. And that's why I think this is just an example of really, really high-end, top-notch marketing yeah that crack marketing team you know that's right they are pretty good what about you adam any quality of life things that you saw in the first half that stood out to you i think i'm with jared on the

sequoia preview i mean there's a lot of stuff in here that i can just see that one big fan of one password by the way they are a sponsor they may sponsor this episode i have no idea but you know jared you may be excited about this integration i'm less excited because now i might be sort of divided between two password apps but i'm happy that they finally have credentials all in one place and an application that lets you command it, not this sort of hidden, I could never really figure out, and that's why I've never adopted keychain in the cloud kind of thing because it just seemed really hard to access where 1Password has solved that in so many ways.

And by the way, this is not a sponsored mention. I'm just a big fan, as I've said before, a decade prior for my cold, dead hands kind of person. And Apple may be at least peeling back one finger of mine. A cold, dead hand? Yeah. I mean, hopefully I'm not dead. Maybe I'm just like a warm, alive hand.

One warm finger has been pulled back. Yeah, one warm finger. Still a major fan, but you can't really beat native. And I think that's what I love so much about the announcements is that, you we talked about this jared at microsoft build around the nativeness i asked i believe it was mark vasinovich right and he couldn't answer i think i even edited it out because he couldn't answer it well and it sounded like off in the whole show were you were you asking like how many of these buttons are actual buttons and how many are just html no it's more like here's this cool co-pilot assistant.

Now, there's copilots everywhere, but a lot of us have iPhones or Androids. There are no Microsoft phones. So there is no native copilot like there is a native Siri or Google Assistant. What are you guys going to do about that? His answer was kind of, well, there's a copilot app

you can install. And it's like, well, that's not what we're talking about. I asked him very directly about, does this open up the opportunity for Microsoft to have a new crack at a device? Because they have Copilot plus PC and some new things they're doing there with like, what's the new CPU, Dragonfly or something like that, I believe.

It's a Dragonfish potentially, I don't know. The Qualcomm Snapdragon. Yeah, Snapdragon. I know it was a dragon somewhere plus uh they have that and i was like well i mean if you're gonna do all this artificial intelligence stuff and do it well like you've demoed you've done i mean uh neha batra like literally demoed speaking in spanish into vs code it translating to english working with co-pilot the application or it could have been github co-pilot i'm not really sure they all merge in my brain it like which copilot am i talking to and there was you know a developer preview of speaking one language translating to the other and getting work done you know and i think that's kind of cool so if you're going to

have that kind of power why not have a native device and i think that's what apple's doing here is they're just natively bringing in the passwords out they're natively bringing in you know an upgrade to siri and obviously the chat gpt extensions and stuff like that let you opt in or out of the response but i think apple has a a lot of things happening because they're native to the device we all, for the most part, all know and love. Hear me out. Microsoft just come out with a little pin that you put on your chest.

It's got Copilot built right in. Shut up and take my money. And that's, you know, when I was watching a lot of the same stuff, Adam, I was thinking, this is such an easier lift for Apple. Exactly, that's what I was thinking too. Because they already have all the data. So yes, they get the privacy bona fides,

and they brag about it because they believe in it, I'm sure, but also because it plays to their strengths. So I subscribed to Midjourney for a long time. I've been paying for GPT Plus for a long time. The one demo around the generation that really blew me away relative to my experience of fighting with these things, Hey, try to make this look like this person kind of thing was, Hey, just give me a picture of grandma with, you know, blowing out candles for a birthday cake. And it looks like her because you've got a gillion photos on the device of her. And it's

that effortless. Uh, whereas, you know, you try to do that with mid journey and the device of her, and it's that effortless. Whereas you try to do that with mid-journey and the amount of uploading and moving things around and then realizing that it's all public now. You mentioned another thing, the passwords app, just not to lose sight of that. I've been a 1Password user for a long time, and I've been very eager to jump ship ever since they've moved to Electron.

I've just had a lot of issues with it. For anyone who's interested in the new iCloud key chain passwords. It's gotten a lot better and it is really cool, but until it has, until it stores your password history and is like exportable, like I will, I could never rely on it because if you've ever had the experience of like a change password screen where you got to enter the old password and then the new password and then you click you know submit and the password manager updates the password because they generated a new password for you but then the submission fails for whatever reason and it didn't persist now you no longer like because iCloud keychain doesn't store password history you just don't know your password anymore and again talking about Japan stuff like a lot of

Japanese systems like I don't live there anymore, so I don't have a phone number there anymore. And so I literally cannot password reset a lot of my accounts. And I had a scare like that when I was relying on iCloud Keychain a year ago, getting excited about this, and then realizing there is just, once it syncs, I've been saved by having an iPad that was turned off. Put it into a Faraday cage and boot it before it syncs iCloud Keychain.

It's getting there, though. I'm glad that they're, I'm sure that feature will get added, but it seems like not this year. So I've been in Apple Passwords now, it's called that, but previously, whatever it was called, keychain user for years.

And I've used 1Password as a team. I have the 1Password app. We use it with changelog stuff, et cetera. But everything has always been in that. And I've never ran into that, Justin. I've never had that problem. Now, I have typed wrong passwords in, but in my experience, maybe it's a bug

or whatever, is that it would wait until that password actually posts and is successful before it saves it. And if it didn't post, then it would still have the old one in there. Clearly, that didn't work in your case. A lot of websites will return a 200 and then some red text saying, hey, this didn't work. Come on, web devs, that's not how it works.

Come on. 200 means okay. If I had a nickel for every time didn't work. Come on, web devs. That's not how it works. Come on. 200 means okay. I hear you. If I had a nickel for every time somebody told me, huh, that's never happened to me before, Justin, well, I wouldn't be on the show. Well, it's never happened to me either. I'm a bit of a... Well, you don't use it, do you? You use 1Password. Well, so

I still use 1Password and I still change passwords. And I don't always just use their mechanisms. I will literally copy out the password from 1Password into another application which is a staple for me which is called TextSoap. I've been using TextSoap for, I'm going to say it really finite

like that. Is that a sponsor? No, they shouldn't be. Say it again. I'm saying that because I've been using it for 15, I mean forever. I could not imagine not having TextSoap on any Mac. I hear soap in the context of software development and I just, I cringe, you know, nightmares WS dash text. The beautiful thing is, is it lets you copy texts from places and you can sanitize it. You can scrub it in

different ways. You can slugify things. So there's some things I do in there. You can uppercase things. It's kind of a, you know of a scratch pad with intelligence that just throws away. I never use it for notes. I'm not writing anything in it. It's just literally stream of consciousness, work in progress, copy paste stuff. And in this case, I will copy out the, in this case of a new password, old password situation, I will copy out the existing password, store it in this text file that opens up for me as a visual. He's a work arounder.

And then I will do the whole password change and manually edit. Cause I don't trust the software. Cause I've had what you've had happen to me before, Justin. So I circumvent that by being, you know, manually doing it. And I would say smarter. Cause I'm like not relying on the software to glitch. It's like short term password history. Right.

Manually. And as soon as I delete that, as soon as I close that application, it's gone. It doesn't keep any history whatsoever. And even Raycast, hey, by the way, Raycast is a sponsor. Love them too.

You should drop in all the names in this one. It will delete it. So if you copy stuff from one password, it doesn't keep in its history. So even if it's in the Raycast history as a password, it doesn't get kept. So there's some safety there. Yeah, so there's a zero-trust system of a manual buffer that you've built.

And that's, hey, if it works for you, that's awesome. I just wish that software worked and you didn't have to do that. But at the same time, though, I think I am excited about, for the world, not so much to replace 1Password, for the world to have passwords baked into Apple. There are so many friends of mine that I want to recommend 1Password for the world to have passwords baked into Apple. There are so many friends of mine that I want to recommend 1Password. And 1Password understands that they have a, because of their security model, it's generally challenging

to set up. There's some hoops. You've got to want to use 1Password. I had to type my wife's secret key yesterday and I was like, well, I don't. Forget that, right? I've got to go find a box with that in it because she's not holding it on her phone. So just to be totally clear, this passwords app is not new. What they've done is they just put a name on it

and pulled it out of settings, right? I mean, there's probably some new features, but all this functionality, they got passkeys in there. They got all kinds of stuff that I've been using for a long time, and it works really well, but it was always buried.

That being said, on the current mac os you can just you know command space and start typing the word passwords and it will launch that subsection of the settings so it's and if you open keychain it'll warn you you probably don't want this if you think you want keychain this is for old people this isn't for adam you know you made a good point though about how the passwords app could improve the world because one of the features i just read about this morning i don't think it was in the presentation, is if you're using iCloud Keychain, there's going to be an on-by-default setting to upgrade all of your logins to passkeys.

So if you log in with your normal iCloud Keychain handshake, you'll just invisibly have the passkey generated and added to that keychain. So that for the golden future, where that's how we're all logging into everything that's already it doesn't delete your login so your password will still work it's just like an additional token that gets added so that seems like a good viral approach i have a lot of bugs with the pass keys with one password though like there's a lot of things that like it just doesn't work i haven't tried i don't know if it's them or if it's pass keys i don't know who to blame. Is it the specification, the protocol, the storage process? But I log into...

It seems like the specification was written with the device manufacturer in mind and not a third-party floating cross-platform thing in mind. That's the challenge for 1Password. That's just ongoing. I just recently skimmed a post of theirs about a lot of the work that they're doing just to keep it working inside of Safari. and it's like come on apple at a certain point you're just wondering if they're making it harder on purpose you know right yeah i mean that's true because there's a lot of things like in the safari field that pop up i'm like they got we have to do a lot

of sniffing to the ui to like display their interface to give you that functionality. And they're not baked in. They may be using native protocols like with Xcode or whatever. But in the end, well, I guess probably not because they're Electron, right? It's an Electron app. I think that if I had a wish for 1Password would be to get acquired. They've built so much trust into the ecosystem. They really are the premier, the best in my opinion.

Now I think they have a chance of losing some market share or not getting that easy earlier market share by having native baked in. Like Apple, just buy 1Password. Oh, I was going to say, you heard it, Salesforce. Join the Slack team. Apple has no interest in buying 1Password. I don't think so. Well, that may be true, but I can to say, you heard it, Salesforce. Join the Slack team. Apple has no interest in buying OnePasser. I don't think so.

Well, that may be true, but I can still wish, Justin. Oh, no, sorry. You said wish. I don't mean to **** on your wishes. That's my bad. I would just say my wish is mainly because I've been such a fan for so long. It would suck to see them. It's an awesome team.

They're great people. Eventually lose because they couldn't find a way to merge and join the forces. I think they've done a good job of diversifying and moving into the enterprise and going to Windows and going to Android and making 1Password bigger than just Apple that I feel like they're going to be okay. Because there's always stuff that, even though Apple Sherlock's you,

they're not going to do it very well or go into the areas that you're going to go. That being said, this is the one case where they have such an advantage that it might be difficult for 1Password to play in that particular arena. But there's always room for somebody who's focused on an area

that the platform vendor is just not going to focus on. They're going to do their halfway attempt. And yeah, they're going to get tons of market share because it's pre-installed. But anybody who really cares about this particular aspect of their system will go find the best-in-class software. And for the tiny percentage of neckbeards

who know what a password manager is, yes, the market is saturated, but now a whole generation of people are going to learn, oh, there's an app to manage passwords. Oh, wait, there's a better one? Oh, here's a TikTok that explains how this one's multi-platform or whatever. Yeah, exactly. It'll grow the pie to a certain extent i agree good good points

what's up friends i'm here in the breaks with onePassword, our newest sponsor. We love 1Password. Mark is here, Mark Machenbach, Director of Engineering. So, Mark, you may know that we use 1Password in production in our application stack. We're diehard users of 1Password, and I've been using 1Password for more than a decade now. I'm what I would consider a diehard, lifelong, never letting it go, private, my cold dead hands type of user. And I love the tooling. I love specifically the new developer tooling over the last couple of years.

But what are your thoughts on the tooling you offer now in terms of your SSH agent, your CIC integrations, the things that help developers be more productive? I'm a developer myself, and I've been bugged for ages with all of the death by a million paper cuts is the expression, I think. All of the friction you run into. And we've come so used to, I don't know, you wake up, you grab your phone and your phone

unlocks with your face and everything's easy. But once you're a dev and you need to SSH into something, suddenly you need to type in a password and you need to figure out how to generate a an rsa key or an elliptic curve key you need to know all these type of things and i don't know about you but i always still google the ssh key gen command uh yeah every time and i've been in this industry for a bit and i still have to do it and that's just it's annoying uh it's friction that you don't need and it kills productivity as well it takes you out of out of your flow state and so that's why we decided to fix and make nicer,

make better, better user experience for developers because they deserve good user experience too. I agree. They do. So let's talk about the CI-CD integration you all have. I know we love this feature here at Change. So we use this in production, but help me understand the landscape of this feature set and how it works. Well, most CI-CD jobs nowadays, they reach out to somewhere. So you publish a Docker image or you reach out to AWS or something, always go into like a third party service for which you need secrets, you need credentials. And so people see their GitHub actions config be peppered with secrets. Now, GitHub has been nice and they've built a little bit of a secret system around that. But once you need to update your config, you need to update in all the different places. Once you need to rotate it, that also becomes harder. And so what

1Password does is it allows you to put all your credentials in a 1Password vault, just like you're used to, and then sync those automatically to your GitHub actions where they're needed. And the same system that you use in your GitHub actions actually also works if you have a production workload running somewhere on the server. And the same type of syntax and system also works when you're doing something locally on your laptop, for instance. So if you're having a.env file, like a.env file, for instance, that's very notorious. People always have this in Teams and they slack it around out of the hand, so to speak, because they know that they shouldn't check it into source code. But we then have all these Slack messages back and forth on, hey, do you have the latest version of the.env?

Because somebody made a change somewhere. And instead of that, what we actually really want is to just be able to check all that stuff into source code, but without having all the secrets in there. So with 1Password, you can check in references to the secrets instead of the secrets themselves. And then 1Password will resolve and sync all of that automatically. Yes, that's exactly how we're using 1Password. We store all of our secrets in a vault called changelog, and we declare a single secret in fly.io. This is where we host changelog.com.

And the secret is named op underscore service underscore account underscore token. And then we load all the other secrets you have into memory as part of the app boot via op and a file we made called env.op now inside of github actions we're still passing them manually but we do have a note to ourselves for future dev that we should use op here too but big deal to use this tooling like this in the application stack at boot, we do it. And if you want an example of how to do it, check out our repo. I'll link up in the show notes, but we have an infrastructure.md file that explains everything. Obviously you can find the details in our code, but do yourself a favor, do your team a favor, go to onepassword.com

slash changelogpod. And they got a bonus for our listeners. They've given our listeners an exclusive extended free trial to any 1Password plan for 28 days. Normally you get 14 days, but they're giving us 28 days, double the days. Make sure you go to 1password.com slash changelawpod to get that exclusive signup bonus or head to developer.1password.com to learn about 1Password's amazing developer tooling. We use it, the CLI, the SSH agent, the Git integrations, the CICD integrations, and so much more. Once again, 1password.com slash changelowpod.

Well, here is the other thing on macOS Sequoia that I'm super excited about. I wonder if you guys are. Use your iPhone from your Mac. iPhone mirroring. For me, this is like you set up your iPhone, you can put it into, what do you call that? Standby mode, the sideways mode while you're sleeping, which is a pretty cool feature. You set it up there, turn it horizontal.

It goes in the dashboard mode, basically. And then you can just control it from your Mac with like an iPhone right there on your screen. Like it's like a window inside of your Mac and it's just your iPhone. You can just do all the things. I don't know. This seems, am I just drinking the Kool-Aid? I struggle a lot with holding my attention and focusing

and not getting distracted. So I immediately posted the screenshot and I said, did you put your phone away to focus? Here, we fixed that for you. You throw it in a bag or whatever, you just can't get away. In fact, the other aspect of this, they really did think this through and it makes a ton of sense. It's kind of like, it's actually surprising that they haven't had notification syncing sooner on this deeper level. But the notification side is then they showed a Duolingo example,

you click the notification, and then it's as if a simulator it looks like if you've ever used the iOS simulator, it looks just like that, except it's your phone screen over VNC or something. But yeah, and then you're in Duolingo, and you're actually controlling it from the Mac screen. So this is a total nightmare. It's a dream for me, Justin. It's a dream for me.

Can you turn it off? I'm sure you can turn it off. Because I mean, I don't always have phone calls come into certain Mac computers computers i got several that i use like a laptop a desktop and i think an older laptop i use just for like writing pretty much it's like you know old but you know like i still take phone calls sometimes but like my main phone or sorry my main machine that i'm on right now my work laptop i don't take the phone calls there. So I disable, you know, the ability for the phone to ring on this desktop. However, on like, every time my phone rings, my computer at home, my wife just told me that she's like, you know, the computer at

home rings all the time. Like when you're not here, I'm like, I'm about to turn that off. So I can agree with you. Like, it's great if you're present at the computer, but it's not great if you're bothering somebody else. So if anyone's followed me or my website at justin.searles.co for a long time, you'll know that this is a bugaboo of mine. I'm very, very focused on notifications and controlling them and everything. But right after my own personal productivity

and my own personal distractibility, my second biggest concern is other people. I feel like everyone being so distracted all the time is resulting in worse outcomes throughout the industry and all kinds of things. Has productivity, has people's thoughtfulness, has people's ability, creativity actually increased with all these awesome technical tools? Or are we just so spread thin and just distracted to all hell?

But the focus on that front, on the ability to actually focus, I was one of the things that I think is going to have the biggest positive impact in people's lives. If you've ever used focus modes in iOS and across Apple's platforms to set up like I'm in my personal mode and only, you know, in my case, I've got maybe five contacts who can message me and I'll see those notifications, but I won't see the rest of messages app, right? Or I've got like only these handful of apps for which notifications can punch through. It's kind of like a, you know, customizable or a context aware, do not disturb mode. setting that up took me several hours and lots of trial and error and explaining it to my wife i'm in like i'm currently in like month nine of trying to explain what it means when it's on but the new natural or excuse me the the apple intelligence mode will

have a automatic focus like a siri focus that you can just turn on called reduced distractions and i suspect for most people, most of the time that's going to accomplish the same thing where it's only like, you know, the Uber marketing notifications will never get through, right? Like the, the social media stuff probably won't, but if somebody sends you a text and it seems important, it'll say possibly important. And it'll, that'll pop through. I think that's brilliant. And that's, that'll, that'll help a lot of people hopefully finally succeed. Because who the hell is going to set up focus modes manually?

Right. Not me. Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think that is probably going to be the boon of the new and improved Siri. It's just providing a natural language interface and helps into things that are otherwise the land of super users and power nerds. Right.

It's like, you're probably the only one who has that set up just right. And it's, it's as buggy as the day it was born, you know? So, so gosh, well,

screen time, I would love some help with screen time. Cause you know, we manage a bunch of kids and their phones and, and they've zero date you. They've, well, I hope not. Apple just closed a zero-dayed you? Well, I hope not.

Apple just closed a zero-day where it was like a trending TikTok or something where you could just paste a random series of strings and overload safaris and get to whatever you wanted. A, it's difficult to configure in the first place to get it dialed in the way that you've done your downtime stuff or your do not disturb is we've spent hours on that

for our family screen time. B, some software updates have just reverted settings. It's like, oh, that's all gone now because we updated this patch iOS release. And then C, there's so many holes in the system that a savvy kid, of which there are many, can just find workarounds and just completely divert it. And just all of a sudden they're just talking to ChatGPT or they're just surfing the web.

Jared, I want you to imagine the future. It's iOS 22, a few years down the road. And you go to the screen time, the parental restrictions area of the settings. And you're in your new Vision Pro and you're you're sitting down on a couch and then siri appears and has a consultation with you as if she were a babysitter and you explain all the things the hey my my kids can watch this stuff no pizza after 11 you know like this right right to give the general like you're creating like in current state like a custom gpt to explain like as a parent this is what we're cool with this

is what this kid needs and then from there it's just bob's your uncle you know and and then it's uh you get plausible deniability like if the if the kid gets mad it's like oh sorry man i i'll let her know i'll try to give her that feedback but you gotta listen to siri i'm not gonna tip her for her babysitting oh man yeah Let's not get into the labor implications. Right. Yeah, I'm sure iPads are doing babysitting for too many people already for too long. But that's another problem we have is that problem. That would be awesome.

That would be way better than what we're currently doing, which is like turning knobs and flipping switches and then hoping that switch didn't flip back but then again we have this fancy natural language smart assistant on there and then it misconfigures it and it's broken and it doesn't work

Bob's not my uncle anymore, what do you think Adam? I like the picture you painted and I like the plausible deniability of it too because uh it's it is i thought i was parenting well but it it does give you the scapegoat to the kids like i'm not the bad guy i like the the bad thing is siri you know i've consulted siri and siri does what i tell siri does what siri does that's right you know can't i'll talk to her i like that justin speaking of plausible deniability, because I love chatting with you guys so much,

I've been a guest often enough that I got the podcast bug. I started my own podcast at the beginning of the year called Breaking Change. It's a solo podcast, so if you like the sound of me talking and you just want three hours of it that's a great way to get yourself just me and and so if you've never listened to solo podcasts i thought that it would be super weird to listen to i found one i really like and uh so i thought i could give this a try because i'm really bad at listening but i'm good at creating mouth words he can talk for three hours that's one of my gifts um but when you talk about plausible deniability,

I was talking about that on that other podcast. Breaking changes. In advance, I was wondering, why would Apple publicly announce that they're going to work with OpenAI for their backend model when all of our iCloud stuff is stored on Azure, AWS, Google Cloud, and Apple never

betrays that information, right? They play them off each other. They just treat it like a commodity. So why is it that the language model would get elevated into this thing? And Federighi even kind of previewed that it would be, was it him? Whoever was talking about it, it was like that it would be configurable in the future, that'd add additional models. And then so that like for Apple to take both third parties, elevate them to a named thing on their platform that the users know about, and then to give the users the work of having to decide which model is best in which circumstances, there must be a reason. And I think that that reason became clear during the keynote, which was Apple wants plausible deniability. Hey, you know, we are confident that our very limited model that's only local,

that's like got temperature set to zero is going to work fine. But if you want something more here, you can click this escape hatch button. And as soon as you do, you're going to see chat GPT may make mistakes and you're going to see their logo big. And so like what Apple is saying really is that's the throat to choke. Don't look at us. Whereas Google has all the egg on their face because they brand Gemini as Google Gemini and Microsoft too, even though co-pilot, we all know we in the industry know that is backed by open AI. They want to brand it as if it's their own thing. And they're, they go out of their way to say, Oh, we've got all of our own proprietary models on top of it too, which means that when it recall screws up or whatever these new features are blow up, it's Microsoft

with egg on their face. So I think this is a way for them to have their cake and eat it too. Good observation. I think that's probably exactly right. Because I can't think of another reason why they would do it. It's so against what they normally do. I guess my warmest take was like, well it's a way of of just catching up really quickly without actually having to put the work in but we know they put the work in on these foundation models anyways that run on device so it's not like they're not going after it internally with their engineers so i think it does make sense that they're like well

here be dragons but they're not our dragons go ahead and use them we're going to provide them for you but you know when when the rubber hits the road, go complain to these people. We're here for you, and they betrayed you with their models. And five years from now, maybe we pull a Google Maps, Apple Maps thing, and we have our own business model

that is mature enough. That way we're not moving fast and breaking things, but we're still getting all the things that the market is saying that we should have or that people are coming to expect. It seems like a huge opportunity for OpenAI. They're still small. They're huge in the hype cycle.

They're huge right now. They're gaining almost that Kleenex brand. They're getting there with chat gpt but it's a couple hundred million users compared to what 1.6 billion active right i mean it's a huge difference in actual people and so it's a huge opportunity for them obviously they don't seem like the kind of company who moves slow and doesn't break things like they're very much going at going for the gusto. And I think they know this is their opportunity to do that. And so it makes 100% sense why they would want to do this.

But they're definitely going to have, when you push things to the masses, you get the massive failures. It's a whole other level. It's just the law of large numbers. More stuff goes wrong more often. I think from a safety perspective, I'm personally really glad that there is a two-tiered system

with this Apple intelligence stuff where the equivalent of a large action model, like what the Rabbit R1 was doing, where I'm sure on a phone it's going to make way more sense where I'm telling Siri, hey, go and do things across these apps on my behalf. That's all going to be either the on device or the running in an M2 Ultra in the cloud, you know, Apple stuff. ChatGPT will not be able to act on my behalf and then like accidentally call 911 or, you know, order a thousand pizzas or delete my bank account.

That seems pretty like there's a pretty firm line somewhere in the capabilities it's like text generation or or you know it's not like it can suddenly as soon as you hit okay take over and and root your phone the other thing i thought was pretty savvy but they have been putting in asterisks at the bottom of the pages and not like up front with is like this apple intelligence stuff which is obviously the flagship thing that they're here to talk about is on iPhone 15 pro and newer, which is this year's model. I mean, there's nothing newer than that right now.

Obviously in the fall, when this stuff ships, there will be a 16, I assume there'll be a new phone that comes out, but this, in addition to being their big, you know, uh,

pushing their chips into the pile of the AI game, they're also like, we're going to sell some new devices. We need a good reason to sell some new devices because they're struggling to sell new devices compared to the past at this point. Yeah, I noticed that as well. It's like, this system will be available

for free on the iPhone 15 Pro as well as on iPads and Macs with an M1 chip and later. So I'm happy that the M1 that we've invested in, Jared, you have the same machine I do. I have an M1 chip and later. So I'm happy that the M1 that we've invested in, Jared, you have the same machine I do. I have an M1, yeah. Yeah, like we can inherit this without having to change anything.

But I have an iPhone 14 and it's perfectly fine. Exactly. Is it, Jared? Exactly. Come this fall, it's not going to be anywhere near perfectly fine anymore. Yeah, and that is a bummer because I don't want to have to change my phone to get

this new stuff. How much different is the iPhone 14 Pro Max versus the iPhone 15 Pro Max? What is the difference? It's exactly one year difference. Exactly. There is no difference. It's titanium. That was the thing this year, right? The band is made of titanium instead of steel.

And they marketed the heck out of it and it was successful, but this is an actual differentiator. Yeah, it is. And if you want to look at it charitably, instead of this is a crude appeal to sell more phones, is you've got to set that floor somewhere. And if it's a brand new thing, may as well set the floor for where our top of the line is now,

because they're only going to get better. And so if that floor specifies what the size, the parameter count of the model that they can squeeze into it, then we're getting a bigger model because they're excluding the 14 Pro or the base level 15. It's not necessarily the most

cynical thing in the world. It's just business. At the end of the day, these are businesses that are trying to make money. And this is how you make more money. Now they have more money than most businesses in the world. Are they number one at this point or two? In market cap, they jostle between one, two, and three between Microsoft and now NVIDIA.

NVIDIA just hit third, I believe, or maybe higher than third. Yeah, those three are definitely there in the trillions. But if you're trying to move that number up and to the right, which is the job of the leadership of a publicly traded company, is to do that, then this makes total sense. The other thing I found interesting is they're also sort of like dipping their toe in to the geography. So this is English only for now. And so that's like a huge portion of the world who are not going to get this

unless they have Siri set to English mode. So they're not going for the gusto that way. I'm sure it's a much harder problem to go multilingual right out of the box with these features. But not only will you have to have a new phone, you'll also have to be speaking English. Not just using the languages, but I have a feeling

Apple's probably going to spend more time QAing and red team testing the negative things that it could do. They probably don't have staff that speak other languages of the scale that they would need to really thoroughly test the safety, at least in this early days that's probably also part of the calculus for like what languages they'll support out the gate i was looking at the compare iphone models page i've got the iphone 15 pro max up and i've got the iphone 14 pro max up which is the phone that i own which is the iphone 14 pro max

love saying all four of those words in unison. Thank you very much. And the difference, you know, where it really matters is the chip. It's the A16 versus the A17 Pro. You all probably know this. But when you compare them, aside from the number changing, I'm sure there's some innards and some technology changes that are more advanced to give the A17 Pro some advancements. But when you

compare them it's a16 bionic chip a17 pro chip six core cpu six core gpu 16 core neural engine and the only difference between the two is that on the a16 which is the i14 pro max version is a five core gpu versus a six-core GPU on the A17 Pro. So I agree with you, Justin, but come on. I mean, these are the same. That last GPU is critical. It's just critical. Right.

You've got to have it. I think the number of cores is one variable, the quality of those cores and what they're capable of. Don't say that. That's not true. Don't be on their fan. Don't be on that. I'm sorry.

I'm just playing the role of shill today. Don't do that, Justin. This is your last time coming back. There was a die shrink, so it's three nanometers. I don't care about that. I know, man. I'm sorry. Speeds and feeds, baby.

Was it clear, though? For anyone listening, if this is the case, they might be yelling at their computer. Are the features available to people on older devices? It's just going to all be to the cloud? Are we only talking about the ability for on-device processing? It all says Apple intelligence will be available. So that's what it says in the small text. And so what all does that encompass, I guess,

is what we're asking. And I don't know the answer. Well, I wanted, I wanted to get into the quality of life stuff and I think that the AI is just so all consuming right now. It's hard not to get sucked in. So I'll pick out another quality of life thing. Thank you. Really jumped out at me. If this feels like the third year in a row where there has been an AirPods pro demo that immediately was like,

hell yeah. Like the, uh, cause I have Siri notifications turned on. I run outside every day or I'm out and among people, but I hate reply, like talking back to it after I get an announcement. So the demo was,

you can just now nod and shake your head. If you have AirPods pro to nod to in the affirmative. So it was like, Hey, as your workout workout says, like that, it looks like you're done with your run. You want to end your workout and you can just nod and have it be done.

Right. I think that's's obvious in hindsight. Surely the accelerometers could have done that for a while, but that they're adding that, I think, is just a really clever one. Yeah, the demo or the video had a man standing in the center of an elevator surrounded by strangers, and he had his AirPods in, and a phone call comes in, I believe, and they're like, do you want to talk right now? Not just any phone call.

It's like your nan now or something like your, yeah. Some sort of like personal situation, you know, and he just shakes his head. No. And nobody knows nobody's, nobody's any of the wiser. I still think it'd be weird to see a guy just randomly shaking his head in the elevator, but you know, less weird than just him saying no, you know, I'm fast forward forwarding already. I'm at the checkout at the grocery store shaking my head at the person when they ask if I... Paper or plastic? No, not that. The other one, and this is right before it in the show,

when they showed that you can... Because I'm a big Apple Cash person because it's private and it's not going to leak everything I do like Venmo does by default or anything. So I like sending Apple Cash with messages, keep it in the walled garden family. They added tap to cash. So you can just use that new kind of beacon feature of like touching the phone tops together. And immediately, even just like the, the image of seeing two people do it to trade money. First of all, it's evocative of sci-fi. That might've been the thing that came to mind is like certain sites, like you're changing credits or something in some dystopian future blade runner thing but the thing that really came to mind for me is like

that's drug dealer mode like that's straight up totally like i i'm surprised i didn't see a whole bunch of people to say oh drug dealer mode like that's it's harder to trace like those transactions it's not like it's impossible it It's backed by a real bank somewhere. But a lot of illicit stuff happens via Apple Cash because it is more secure. Yeah. I thought it was hilarious that they demoed it that way. Better than Bitcoin for drug dealers, turns out.

More convenient. Funny story about that NFC put the phones close to each other and they start exchanging stuff is uh our daughter had a 16th birthday party and she had maybe seven eight nine girls spend the night and at a certain point like 9 10 p.m we just collect all the phones we're like you guys are just going to spend time together you've been on your phones fine like we're those parents we're like all like it's an airplane heist you like walk down the aisle with a bag and you're like every phone's in the bag the bag. Well, we have, we just tell them to do it, you know, go ahead and collect the phones, bring them up.

And so, yeah, my daughter's friend walks up. She's got a stack of iPhones mostly. And there's probably like nine of them. And she goes and sends them on the counter in the kitchen. And it turns out they're all just trying to send each other their information because they're just too close to each other for too long. And then what was funny was in the morning, one of them had an alarm set for like six 30 in the morning. And of course it wakes me up. I go to figure out, I go out there to turn it off and I can't figure out which phone

it is. Cause they're all like so close to each other that I'm like out there, like holding each phone up to my ear. I'm like, are you the one doing it? Are you the one doing it? Are you the one doing it? It was hilarious. I was imagining like a Jenga tower and it was like the bottom one vibrating and they all just fall down and crack on your tile. It was definitely one of the, I checked a lot of them. It was very difficult.

And you don't want to like, you know, look at their home screen or like you don't want to pry at all into their phone because it's a very personal device. But like, I'm trying to turn the stinking alarm off, man. So yeah, just thinking about the technology's effect on our lives. You know, like the weird things that happen. Like you said, you're at the grocery store and you're shaking your head no,

and they just ask you if you want paper or plastic, and no is not a proper response to that question. It's not a yes or no question, sir. It's paper or plastic. We don't think ahead or we don't, I don't know, it's kind of an unintended consequences thing. Like just the way they actually plays out in real life is always weird and wild.

Yeah. Adam curious. Is there anything else that you saw that's like, man, I want to, I want to use that. I would look forward to that. It's a simple thing really, but I think it's just the, the nature of the iPhone has not been very customizable until I would say the

last several iterations of iOS. So I'm excited to see that like for example Jared I don't know. Oh wait let me remove do not disturb. And let's see if you can tell me where this photo is from. Oh yeah that's the Paramount. That's in Yeah. Took this really awesome photo of the Paramount

and the other day I was just like customizing my screen. Right. And it suggested this photo and it looked that good because like it was a color photo when i took it so we were in seattle recently as i've mentioned a couple times for microsoft build 2024 and i believe it was even scott guthrie said oh that's the paramount theater we've gone there before and he was just sharing stories about microsoft build being in seattle whatnot and so when jared and i were out scooting and walking as we were touring the city and doing different things, I snapped a shot of the Paramount and it looked really good.

And the iPhone, when it suggested recently, when I was kind of customizing my home screen, it suggested a different screen, I guess, a different wallpaper. And I'm like, sweet, yeah, I like that. And I added it. But now I see all these new customizable features that you can like color icons and stuff like that. Like that's cool. Because traditionally the iPhone has not been very customizable.

And I think that really is a quality of life thing in my opinion, right? Like I can take this photo that I just snapped quickly. I'm a pretty decent framer when I, when I, when I take photos, but that photo looks really good. I'd swear like I can probably sell that thing.

That's how good it looks. You know, I mean, somebody wants this thing on at least a couple. I like how you went from pretty decent to like I could probably sell that thing. That's how good it looks. I mean, somebody wants this thing on at least a couple... I like how you went from pretty decent to like, I could sell that thing. I could probably sell it, right? But you know, I've got different shots of my

kids too that I put on there and my family and whatnot but for now it's the Paramount. This random theater in Seattle which I was told about by Scott Guthrie and we toured while we were walking around. But the customization I think is really cool. Just the color, and we toured while we were walking around. But the customization, I think, is really cool. Just the colorization and just the things you can do. It's not super crazy customizable, but it's definitely more than it has been.

But specifically, like, changing the icon colors and whatnot, to me, that's pretty dope. What about as a developer? How do we think about this? Because I don't own an iPhone app, but if I did, and i spent a whole bunch of money on a really cool icon and then someone just gonna like crank the color tone to pink on it you know i mean it's their phone do what they want but sure it's kind of like i think you just answered your question true i'm not gonna stop them but i'm kind of like come on man i'm really glad it's not opt-in or it would never have happened because every single brand officer every company big enough to have somebody in

charge of brand. No, they have to just, yeah, they got to just do it. And they did it right. And I'm actually not mad about it. I just know that that probably ekes some people where it's like, they're going to make my icon ugly everywhere they go. Well, Apple is like, you know, of all the companies that are absolute control freaks about how they're presented, they're letting you color their icons.

So I guess, you know, you've got to be a real tight wad to be so upset. You know, the biggest thing about that feature that had been previewed and, you know, Mark Gurman leaked so much of this in advance. It was incredible. Yeah, Friday before. But for months it's been, hey, the grid, you no longer have to snap all the things into the grid.

And I took that to mean, what it means is you don't need some widget to create white space between items anymore. Like you'll be able to put them wherever. But what I think a lot of Android users and people who genuinely want total control took it to mean was free pixel point placement of your apps, wherever the hell you want. And I was like, no way, like Apple has some taste, like it's going to be a grid. It's going to be the same grid. Maybe you can resize the, you know, but like, and so when I saw it click into the grid i just you know i'm not on twitter anymore but i

could have only imagined that if the twitter that existed in 2018 was a thing i would have seen a lot of my android friends and a lot or a lot of people really looking forward to this level of customization be like oh what the hell this is just this is a spacing but but for most people that's that's what they would want right is just put it at the bottom of the screen or the bottom of the photo. The best thing I saw on Twitter slash X post keynote was a tweet slash X post. Oh, ruined it. Which was the, a cutout of the video. So there's, if you watch the keynote, there's this transition where Federighi craig federighi who is kind of the he's the steve martin uh yeah i feel like his comedic timing

has gotten to be so if did you see his first ever uh demo he was demoing i think his hands were shaking the hands shaking over the magic mouse and they just cruelly kept a close-up of that as he's like yeah and and now you see like he's doing like spit takes to camera and right that guy has gotten i don't know if it's training or what uh or just kind of growing into the role but he's a performer he is so good yeah he really is and he keeps it funny sometimes it's like too dad jokey for even me who loves a good dad joke but it's good stuff because otherwise the things get boring anyways there's this transition where he's like jumping over the railing and down and it's like he's parkouring to the next area and in context it made sense and it was kind of funny but if you take that one just by itself it looks like

he's fleeing the scene of a crime or something and the caption was like uh because he was just tapped to cashing his dealer no the caption was craig federighi just got asked where the training data comes from, or something like that. And he just bolts. If we want to talk about things that they didn't talk about that they normally are very eager to talk about, it's environmental impact. And I saw a lot of people express frustration about this. There was a lot of, not even hand-waving,

did anything green come up even once not that I can think of now, right. And you know, Microsoft, there was some article in some magazine, this is really helpful describing that Microsoft is just going to totally beef their their environmental impact goals on account of all of the AI churn that they're going through. I'm curious whether or not, of course, Apple may have mentioned that it uses like less electricity at some point or less power, but that was probably more from a battery perspective when we're talking about the on-device processing. And of course, you know, any amount of local phone device thing is going to save some round trip to a server that probably

is way more noxious from an electricity consumption perspective. But it does feel like Apple and all of these companies who've made such big commitments for going green and for combating climate change, they are not super eager to talk about the elephant in the room when it comes to the amount of processing that this requires. It's a lot. Back to quality of life improvements. Tap back with any emoji even a gen

moji even a gen moji which is going to be a thing we should probably explain adam what's a gen moji did you catch this uh it's a generated emoji nailed it dang i'm just so good yeah he reverse engineered that answer i win so apple intelligence can generate for you an emoji based on a description or whatever. And it, you know, it just looks like one and everyone in the, in advance, everyone's like, well, that's not Unicode. So you can't put that in, in text or whatever. But Apple told Apple's had a thing. I think it's called like attributable string or something where you can have like a images in line with texts in their APS for a long time. So like genmojis are just that. So they can just like live in text and Unicode be damned. I almost feel like this is a RCS, you know, like having to swallow it and do RCS because China made them and to kind of, you know, also have a good excuse that

iMessage shouldn't be regulated. It's almost like out of spite. They're like, you know what? Unicode, you too. We're going to generate emojis. We're going to put them in line and it's going to just look like absolute nonsense to all the Android users out there that they're chatting with. But you can tap them back. Sorry, I interrupted.

It's all right. No, genmojis, man. Well, I like to tap back. I'm a big tap back kind of guy. I'm a huge tap backer. Yeah. I tap back all the time. It's good stuff.

But you always said, you take that sentence out of context. Okay. You have to always decide like, well, how do I feel about this? You know, is it a thumbs up?

Is it a heart? Is it a thumbs down? Is it a ha ha? Is it a bang bang? Or is it a question mark? And it's like, you know what? Sometimes it's none of those things.

And, and now it could be an anthropomorphic sheep holding his nose exactly which is you know i don't know i kind of like the limitations you know i'm excited about advancements but i kind of like the limitations of tap backs because you can't go crazy with it there's a spectrum there a defined spectrum but going crazy is what we do when we talk to people, you know, and we're like having fun in a text chat or something. Like, come on, throw an anthropomorphized sheep in there. Let me ask you a question. Do you tap back your own messages?

Have you ever like sent a message and then tapped back your own? Because I have. Was that a question or a confession? Quickly turn into a confession. It's both. Well, you didn't answer in time. So I wanted to put it out there that I'm on team tap back myself. I went back in my timeline.

I was total recalling. I don't have the plus PC part yet. I don't think so. I don't think I would do that. I think I do have a modicum of etiquette. So give me an example of a tap back to your own message. I'll give you a perfect example so i shared something with somebody we were having you know back and forth and talking and whatnot and then i shared something that was funny and it could have been taken as potentially not funny i see because like conversation right

and so to be clear that i meant it as funny i just tapped back back with, ha-ha. All right, that's a good move. I'll give you that. I usually just throw a JK in there afterwards. That's laughing at your own joke, Adam. Yeah, you're kind of ha-ha-ing yourself. Kind of, but then they also ha-ha'd. Yeah, but what if they hadn't? What if they had question-marked it?

What if they thought it wasn't funny, and then they're like, oh, he's fishing? Well, then if they would have question-marked it, I would have then pressed a hold and replied directly to my existing message, and then I said what's with the question mark what's with the question mark man and then i would then i would tap back that with a with the question mark itself to just emphasize the fact that i've got questions now okay what if you could have just added a picture of a like a like an animated jk that just was generated for you and just slap a

sticker on there jk just kidding and now you'll have genmoji you could have tapped back with like a haha like of your face right you know i'm not a big fan of like gifs gifs moving images and messages really i'm just not when somebody like sends me an animated meme or whatever i'm just like hide that thing delete it get it out of here unless you delete it out of the message stream yeah i wanted to get it gone i'll tap and hold that thing and delete it okay i feel like i feel like that's radical yeah that's that's uh i want to say that's radical but at the same time when they uh demoed the genmoji and the tap backs with any emoji, I was personally offended and just viscerally upset when they took those original five tap backs

that are grayscale and then made them color. I was like, oh, that's just garish. I think that the tone mapped grayscale monotone original is subtle, tasteful. Not too much pizzazz, just enough. So you wanted them to do that with the whole gamut. You wanted them to write a monotone original subtle tasteful you know maybe not too much pizzazz just so you wanted them to do that with the whole gamut you wanted them to provide a monotone set of emoji well i guess if it takes ios 18 to color tint your app icons maybe by ios 36 i can color tint my yeah tap backs i need that extra gpu for that i think i need one more GPU. I am down with Genmojis, though, generally,

because I think that's kind of cool. They've actually, I'm assuming, they've frameworked it in such a way that they can generate new ones that never existed before. And I think that's kind of a positive for humanity, because why not just infiltrate the lexicon with more, more?

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Last time, Justin, it was on rug pull not cool, which has become a catchphrase when it describes the inevitable potential. That's true. Rug pull that is not cool that's happening and continues to happen. It's catching on. Right, it's catching on. Episode 40, justin i don't know if you know this but episode 40 of this very show change like on friends which are on do you know this we discussed justin sterling's extensive use of the apple vision pro now here we are like six months oh yeah and we said that when you come

on we're gonna talk to you about it right. Right. And so now is a good time. Let's do it. Good call. I forgot about that. Do you want to talk about my Vision Pro life first, or do you want to talk about the new stuff that they announced? Let's talk about your Vision Pro life. All right.

So out of frame, I used to have a very sterile background here in my office. I'm on a green screen right now, just in case you want to put me someplace hilarious later. We have so many options right now. Yeah, right. But behind there, I've got a green screen right now, just in case you want to put me someplace hilariously. I mean, we have so many options right now. Yeah, right. But behind there, I've got a knockoff Eames chair that I've kind of turned into my battle station for I sit down comfortably in the lounger. I've got a command stripped, like the battery pack for the Vision Pro is behind me, behind my head.

And so the Vision Pro is kind of just always sitting there in the, in the chair. And then I've got my M three Mac book air that I, you know, pair with it. And so pretty much all computing that is more than five, 10 minutes is I sit in the chair, I put on the headset, I opened the laptop, and then I wait a way too long period of time for one or the other to be comfortable with screen sharing the Mac virtual display starting up. And then once that starts up, I make it, the default size is way too small. I make it way too big. I push it out a little bit. Uh, and then I start some music and then that's typically like, that's my work environment. And that's been pretty much every day that I've been working since the vision pro launched.

It has apps. Vision pro can do other things too. You know, you watch movies on planes and stuff, but for me and my purposes, I just use it as a way to have a really, really good monitor that is super large in an environment where it's easy for me to focus. And also in a way that like doesn't contribute to any of my like neck or back

pain and posture issues that I tend to have when I sit at a computer for a long time. So that's, that's, I guess, just to set the table, like that's how I typically use the vision pro and it's worked really, really well for me. Now it wouldn't work all for everybody, right? Like some people, um, their eyes don't work super great with the screens. It doesn't feel super sharp. But for me, I experience almost no latency. It feels very sharp for me. I actually learned a couple of pro tips since last time we talked about all this, like Adam Lizagor from Sandwich. I started corresponding with him and chatting with him a little bit. Actually, he just launched an app yesterday called Theater. That's an app where you can have theater-like experiences with Vision

Pro as a follow-up to his television app, where you can put little televisions in your room and watch YouTubes and stuff on them. It's super cool stuff. If you're interested in, like, if you follow John Gruber or Daring Fireball, it's going to live stream in the Theater app exclusively tonight at 10 p.m. Eastern and 7 Pacific, which I think is really, oh, sorry, tonight is Tuesday. So by the time you're listening to this, it's over. It's over. You missed it. Sorry about that. You'll catch the replay. But that's pretty cool in spectral

video. Adam turned me on to a tip. I think they called it open face system. I wanted to say open face sandwich. I guess that's his company name. It's like open system use of the Vision Pro where you take off the light shield. I already have like a different kind of strap that's more comfortable that i that i have like a 3d printed adapter for because the two straps it comes with aren't really comfortable

for hours of use on end and it uses the top just like your headphones here like uses like the top the crown of your head the top of your head for the weight distribution wearing the vision pro you just take off the light shield and so like like the, the goggles are sitting, you know, a couple inches in front of your eyes. So you still get all your peripheral vision. And that's honestly like kind of more of the promise of what Apple was going for in the first place, where it starts to feel like goggles that are augmented with like pretty big screens in front of you. And additionally, like, you know, you don't get, you know, any weird lines around your, your face. It doesn't feel sweaty because you're getting plenty of airflow in there. you. Additionally, you don't get any weird lines around your face. It doesn't feel sweaty because you're getting plenty

of airflow in there. It looks really silly, I'm sure. I'm sure I look just like Becky walks in and she chuckles every time, multiple times a day. Has she ever tried to sneak up on you and punch you in the gut or something? Well, now that I don't have the light shield on, it's way harder.

You ever seen the movie lawnmower man by any chance i have not oh gosh i saw it like when i was a kid yeah it kind of reminds me of that but they're on their belly in this case they're kind of like they have the goggles on they're kind of fly in virtual they're flying but like when you're looking at them they're just sort of like wobbling as human beings yeah i almost wonder if it's if you might seem like a version of that but flopped like on your back instead of on your belly or kicked back at least can we get Becky to take some video

while you're acting just so we can get an idea just a homework assignment if she can just go to work on that that would be great do you have any questions about I enjoyed listening to you talk about my blog post about this you listened it was a fun conversation I told him that you talk about my blog post about this. You listened?

Right, right. Okay, good. No, it was a fun conversation. I told him that we talked about him, so that's how you get Justin on board. Right. I was curious if he would actually listen back. So I don't think then I was as clear as I am now, you explaining it, your posture. Because I had assumed you were sitting in some way, shape, or form.

Maybe I gapped that part of your article. I don't know. Maybe it was bad writing. Fair. Fair. Quite possible, yeah. But you explained the posture. It seems like you're using gravity to your advantage, then,

to reduce the weight of it on your body. So it sounds like you kind of hacked your way to maybe a more comfortable way to use the Apple Vision Pro. Way more like those chairs in the matrix, right? Where they jack in. Yeah, exactly. It's yeah. It seems like that. Or you're at a dentist. That's probably a more natural example. Do you ever, do you ever doze off? I haven't, but it's, I don't know. Like I'm sure that there are some social psychologists out there who'd say like, you know, if you're leaning forward, you're more likely to get angry and stuff. And I will say that

a lot of my angrier content, I was leaning forward pretty hard. And nowadays I'm way more zen. Yeah, you're leaning back and relaxing. Yeah. Well, I'm curious about, if you can explain more clearly, the gap in front of your eyes. So it sounds like you can see around your peripheral, like you do have that.

Do you feel any eye fatigue over time? Do you feel like how your eyes work? Or just generally like, I don't know, your eyebrow, eye area has experienced different feelings, whether it's totally go shieldless. Like if you've got one of these, give it a try. If you've got the light shield on, yeah, you'll probably get a little sweaty. The thing generates a lot of heat, but it's really good at pushing that heat up. Like I never feel it. I guess if I had bangs, I would feel it, but you know, I'm, I'm blessed to not have too much hair up front. It feels like you're wearing ski goggles, right? Cause the field of view isn't super duper wide. And so after a certain amount of time in that it can feel a little bit isolating.

The pass through video though is super duper good. And so you, you in general still feel like you're in your room. You still feel like you're around. If you get up and start walking, then all of a sudden the, the motion blur is pretty bad because it's, it's not really great at motion. And so then that can be a little bit nauseating if you're trying to walk around while you use it. But for long stretches, when I don't have the light shield on, it's super comfortable and I can just, I could rock it pretty much all day. The only thing that I notice is if I, when I do finally take it off, my eyes will have acclimated to thinking that the pass through video is real life. And then it's like, it's like when you're going through your photo

library and your phone and you get to one of those HDR photos and like suddenly everything else looks really dim, but like that sun looks really bright. Like the main thing in the photo isn't actually dimmer. It's just that the contrast with like the other bright stuff around it is so much brighter that it makes it look dim. So when I take my headset off, sometimes at the end of the day, I'm just like, I'll just have like a little moment of like, holy, real life is quite bright. That throws me off a little. But, you know, fortunately, no real vision issues. I said, you know, I get I get my sunlight.

I get my exercise. I try to focus on the distance. I'm not super worried about it causing any real eye strain yeah well that would be my concern is like it because you're using it hours too much yeah right well it's the way you use it as if you sit down to a computer traditionally but you're not you're sitting down or actually you're laying down and you're putting your apple vision pro on and you're putting your Apple Vision Pro on and you're going to town with the whole screen pairing, et cetera, and you're there for a session, two, three, four hours,

or longer, potentially, if you can handle it right. And that's where I think I begin to think, well, there's probably going to be some unknown, potentially unintended consequences long-term that we're just not aware of yet, and you're the guinea pig in some way, shape or form. Yeah, I, that's a great patient zero. I think, uh, I shouldn't undersell the ability to just like, if you've got the battery in your pocket or whatever, like you can stand up, like I've

got a standing desk right here. I'll push my monitor back and I'll stand at the desk while, you know, also working with the same kind of screens in front of me. So the fact that it's like a 140 inch monitor that you can take anywhere, kind of like, you know, also working with the same kind of screens in front of me. So the fact that it's like a 140 inch monitor that you can take anywhere, kind of like, you know, that only weighs three pounds is really nice. I'll work from the balcony sometimes, you know, I'll, I'll move around. Honestly, the only thing I'd really improve is the fact that to run Mac OS apps, I need to have a Mac with me, right? Like that's, it seems silly. It seems like I should just be able to hold a keyboard and do all the same stuff it's got like an m2 in it you know it's fast enough right so that that seems

like i don't know i hope that they at some day in some future world have this but like i can't really complain like they need like a mac mini kind of style thing to pair up with rather than a full-on just mac os and yeah or just put mac os in there right now you sound like an ipad user i mean that's what most ipad users really just want at the end of the day they're like it's exactly like the ipad like this device is amazing i wish it just had mac os on it yep you know it could just be an app with some yeah with some adjustments of course but yeah yeah well i wonder like it because most of the smarts in the device are in the goggles, right? It's not in the battery pack.

So I'd imagine you want distance potentially between the human, less weight, stuff like that. I know the iPad is pretty light, but still, yeah, it's kind of flat and bigger than the goggles are. So I imagine they'll probably have to have some sort of accessorized version of the computer. I mean, it's already got an M2 in it, and it's got a fan. Yeah, what else do you need? RAM. You need storage. Does it have both of those?

I'm stupid when it comes to Apple Vision. 512 gigs of storage and 8 or 16? I would guess 8 gigs of RAM. You could put the storage in the battery pack or something. Yeah. I mean, they can get fancy with it. Anyways. We're still in version 1.

Well, to that point, what's the new stuff that's going to make at least you and the 12 other people using this? Right, exactly. I guess who we should really be speaking to other than potential consumers of the Vision Pros, anyone who's got theirs in the box and whether they should pull it out of the box you know it's collecting dust one uh they have fake spatial video or fake fake space fake okay currently you can take a spatial photo okay but no one does that he just got mad at himself if you if you click on the side button on the goggles okay now you can take any photo in your library with Vision OS 2, and through the magic of ML, it can

separate subject and depth mask and stuff and create a spatial photo. And if you've never used a Vision Pro before, a spatial photo or a spatial video has sort of got this shadow box effect where you can kind of peer around the edges, and as you move your head, you can sort of see different angles.

So a jury is out on whether that looks any good it would be inventing new information from nothing so it probably looks silly does the current thing look good like do you appreciate those the real ones so one time i accidentally took a spatial photo of like my feet you know like just imagine yourself lying in or in this chair you take a thing and oh, it captured a thing. And then later on, I opened the Photos app, and it happened to open in a large format to that photo, and I thought those were my feet. Because I was in the same position. It tricked you.

It tricked me into, yeah. Oh my gosh. Almost real life. It's pretty good. But from a megapixel's perspective, these are potato cam iPhone 1 equivalents. They're very low resolution they're not the 12 megapixels that you'd get from a phone so we'll see how that goes the next ones why would you want to do this though why would you care about like taking an existing photo what is the

benefit to seeing it differently i suppose like and it's not real so it's faking it so like you have a 2d photo you you know you probably took if we can trick the eye though who cares i think it's a parlor trick i think they were able to do it and people like the spatial effect sure so they figured why not hey that's just the first thing they showed they got let them keep going it's gonna get better or maybe not from here well hang on a sec i want to go one layer deeper on this so this reminds me of this psychological thing that studies have done this i don't know how to describe you the setting, but essentially you would have a psychologist, you would have a patient or a subject, and that subject is sitting on a table or sitting at a table like any sort of normal desk with their arms able to sit up on the table.

And they've hidden one of their arms, but in in place of the arm they've put a fake arm that looks and is sitting in the same position as their arm and they and the doctor or the whoever's conducting this experiment will stroke the arm and like massage and the brain will begin to think that is theirs and then out of nowhere they take this knife and they whack it and they scream as if it's their own arm being chopped off yes that's what this reminds me of is this whole like you just said you thought they were your legs right what if something like something somehow like happened into those legs you're like ah my legs yeah like what if inside the photo like something chopped your photo leg off

maybe would you have felt it do you think think, Justin? Would you feel that? If we were talking about the pass-through video, if the pass-through video, which you're, like I said, you get really accustomed to over the course of minutes and hours, if suddenly that started lying to you, right? And like a horror movie, stuff started flying and whatnot. If the question is,

could what happened in the pass-through video be literally terrifying? The answer is definitely yes. If the question is, could what happened in the past video be literally terrifying? The answer is definitely yes. If the question is whether or not if you poke my virtual leg, will I feel literal pain? I think I have to leave that to the scientists. I'm not sure. I think you should try it. I should try it?

Because I think you will feel the pain. Well, yeah, you could be your own scientist. All right. I'll build an app to simulate this and see how it works. We're already giving Becky some homework. We can just add this to her list. Yeah, sure. Other features, gestures.

So there's a couple of gestures that they're adding. Right now, there's not really any. They're similar to the gestures if you used a Quest 2 or 3 with the hands-only mode, no controllers, where you put your hand out and the home, they don't call it a home screen, but the basic home apps will pop out. That's nice. Another thing is you flip your hand down and on, I don't know, it was wrist or thumb, you'll see the time as well as control center, I want to say, and be able to get into control

center from there. Why that's really nice is currently the gesture to get to control center. I haven't heard this documented much online, the way to get into control center, which is what you need to do to start a Mac virtual display session from the vision pro, or, you know, just the audio, just like you normally want to use control center for you roll your eyes into the back of your head. And then with that, because you have to keep your head stationary but relatively your eyes need to go up towards the top and then that creates a little like triangle disclosure and then you and then you you pinch to click and then that opens control center and for me it's really tricky because for whatever reason i always want to move my head up but then that disappears so the fact

that i'll be able to just like flip my flip my hand and and get to control center faster that way because a lot of things are, more than other platforms, it feels like Control Center is the answer to a lot of questions, especially around audio and getting your AirPods synced and stuff. You don't have some other menu bar to work from. So that looks good. They didn't have very many of these, but I think this was just only on the title slide at the end, wrap-up for Vision OS 2. They had a little tile there that said Recent Guest User.

And I think what that is is spouse mode. Because Current Guest User, if you want to activate that, it forgets who the person is the minute that they first take off the headset. So I've had people, to demo the device, put it on. They put it on. It takes them through the whole, like a pinch calibrate the display by pinching all these targets, do three rounds of that. Finally do it. They get through all this, they set it up. They've adjusted the IPD between the headset. And then, then they're like, okay, cool. Or like they pull up the headset to ask me a question for a second and then they put it back on and then immediately it starts the whole wizard over again. And so if,

you know, let's say I want to show one of these spatial videos or spatial photos to Becky right now, she'd have to go through that wizard each and every time she put the thing on her head. So I think this recent guest user, if I had to guess is going to provide a way to have like known people or maybe the most recent person, at least be able to use the device in that guest mode without having to reconfigure, which if you've never used this, it sounds very pedestrian, but like, it really is the difference between like, I was kind of terrified. They'd announced a photos feature. That was so great. Becky would want to buy one for herself again, then return it again she bought one initially and it was just not for her so the fact that i'll be able to like show her photo stuff or she'll be able to use it for photos purposes on her own yeah that made me happy can we

pause there for one second i have one question about this dive in i haven't paid attention to this they may have marketed this and i don't know but you mentioned becky and mentioned that she had one she took it back and i'm imagining that you all are pretty close proximity wise to each and emotionally right yeah but in but in many ways i'm sure what's the experience like if you wanted to do this photos experience where you're in your own apple vision pro and she's in her own apple vision pro can you sort of have a shared experience where you're sort of like augmented together in a way to like make the photo viewing experience cooler because that's kind of interesting that's actually one of the one of the things they announced for vision os2 is that share play is coming to photos and allowing exactly

that and in one of the demos you can see it's a person and then space ghost friend of theirs on their right both looking at one photo and commenting oh Oh, she looks this or that. So answer is yes. And in fact, I have done share play with a few people now, like my friend, Aaron Patterson, tender love. He and I did when, when the personas, the spatial personas, this is a new thing that launched about a month and a half ago when that came out. Now you're not just in a little box of a computer generated person. You're a floating box of a computer generated person you're a floating head of a computer generated person with hands and things that was the first time i'd ever really use share play for anything because i don't have any need for it on iphone ipad i don't want to like you

know watch an apple tv with somebody simultaneously typically but share play where your person like another person's persona is brought in and now you can play a board game together or you can watch a movie together or you can now in VisionOS 2 with photos actually look at photos together interactively. They also have Freeform, the whiteboarding app and stuff, or Keynote. I think it almost makes me wonder whether or not SharePlay was being developed with this in mind

and then COVID happened and then they rushed it out the door and kind of forgot about it for a few years because it never really made much sense to me as a feature outside of the context of like you know initial pandemic but yeah it's a cool experience Aaron and I were typically not like blown away by this kind of stuff but I remember after

playing a game and watching a short video where like he was like that was cool we should totally do that again yeah this idea of shared experiences to me is is super cool obviously because like i like other humans generally but like watching tv together is is kind of cool but jared and i were talking about what was the film we were talking about watching jared oh yeah silicon valley we were talking about i had this idea i was like was like, we should buy, like, it was, I don't know, a stupid Seattle idea. We were scooting around Seattle, and I was like, we should buy Apple Vision Pros and, like, have a whole separate podcast.

It's just you and I, like, Mystery 9000. What is that TV show? MST 3000. Yeah, yeah. Which one of you is Crow, and which one of you is Tom Servo? That's up to our non-viewer slash listener. I didn't know you'd call them but i was thinking we can watch silicon valley together via apple vision

pros and it would be kind of a thing like it would be a shtick almost you know it would have to be a give us a reason to have a business expense for the apple vision pros maybe have some on you know there's the good part of the idea you know some some uh some good experience with it maybe we can kick back like justin is doing our podcasting or whatever. But I was thinking that would be kind of cool. But this idea of doing things together, like Plex, I'm a big user of Plex in my household, and it has this feature called Watch Together. And I just wonder why this idea hasn't caught on more because I would totally watch a movie of somebody that's somewhere else. And maybe you have the pause where you're like, hey, I've got to go to the bathroom.

Cool, okay, well, let's pause. I'll go go to the bathroom too but you're not in the same room right like you and beck you're in the same room and that's cool that you can maybe watch some photos together but you can also like you had done with with aaron patterson tender love disparate you're you're somewhere else right you're not you're not in the same zone at all this whole shared experience may have been like a covet thing but i still think it's kind of like a, we're in a, you know, geographically distributed world. It makes sense to have more and more things that are together, but separate geographically.

It feels real. Like I was just traveling. He was also, he goes to Kagi every year. And so like we, we spent a couple of days just traveling around Okinawa together and the spatial persona experience that we've had felt more like being together in person than it felt like being on a phone call, right? Because we're typically over a long distance. And I think that's, I agree. I think that's super duper valuable. And when you ask, why doesn't the TV stuff catch on? It's like, well, you need a microphone, you would need a camera, you need to be like a tile in a window or something. Whereas when, when you're in the spatial setting, the videos in front of you, it's no, no smaller than

it otherwise would. It's not obstructed. The person's just on your right or on your left. Or when you're playing a game, the game board is exactly like, it's not obstructed. The person's just on the other side of you. I think that, that because nothing is lost in in transmission and there's not any sort of like extra equipment that you would need to make it a good experience it's not fiddly yeah the ux design of this definitely has many many challenges to make it believable, and like, I guess if I was watching, you know, a show, let's say like Silicon Valley with Jared, through the watch together mode, whether it's, you know, through Plex or something else, if he kept having to pause or get interrupted, I'd be like, you kind of ruined my experience. So maybe that is not a good thing, but maybe the Ample Vision Pro is where you kind of get it because you're sort of a bit more focused, a bit more intentional with it being isolated, less distractions around. Now that being said, kids can come

in the room and be like, Jared, hey, or whatever, Adam, hey. And the experience is interrupted. I like the idea though. The idea is cool. Again, we're still in version 1 and it's already pretty great. So I can see 5, 6 years from now this feeling more normal.

Have we built up enough to finally talk about the ultra wide virtual Mac display? Is it, are we there yet? One more thing. Okay. So there's, there's two annoyances, two big annoyances from like an ergonomics perspective to trying to use the spatial computing for computing, which is one, when you're in an immersive environment, meaning like you've, you're not looking at the pass-through video, you're on the moon or in Yosemite or something,

and you're holding a magic keyboard, an Apple branded magic keyboard in your lap, that, that keyboard is invisible. So you cannot, unless you're an amazing touch typist, you'd be surprised how often you're finding yourself wanting to look at the keyboard, especially when it's assigned your lap loosely, you know, uh, vision OS two, apparently for magic keyboards and magic keyboards only will punch that through the, it'll identify it and punch it through the immersive environment. So you'll be able to actually see the keys. That's one huge thing. The other big win is for whatever reason, you can, you can pair a Bluetooth track pad to VisionOS, but not a mouse. And it seemed to suggest, we all know Apple prefers trackpads to mice, but it seemed to suggest, like Apple saying, no, the future is no mice allowed.

Apparently, VisionOS 2 will let you sync Bluetooth mice. So apparently it was just an oversight version one thing. So if you're a mouse person, that'll work. All right, so now we can get to the thing. So tell me all about the ultra-wide. Did you not watch the keynote? Oh, I did. I did, but I've been talking too much.

Okay. Well, I don't know if you saw, but it's ultra-wide. It's virtual, and it's a Mac display. Damn, he's good. That's it. What a pro. That is a summary that I think I can get on board with. That's all you got to know.

People were hoping to see an announcement. When I say people, I might be meaning like vision pro people. You and the 12 other people that are using this. Yeah, right. In the subreddit. Right. And that subreddit's not active enough to give me a lot of hope at the moment. Person was hoping.

Yes. enough to to give me a lot of hope at the moment person was hoping yes me jim and his three sock puppet accounts are all upvoting um the idea that you would have like an x server implementation where like the mac would act as a windows server you know all of our computers have windows servers on them that's how they work it's the abstract like the design abstraction that they use but like the server client thing isn't actually used because it's all local host. It's like, yeah, I'm a window server serving up all these windows on your screen locally, but the technology was invented, you know, with X and so forth so that like, you know, a mainframe could be running now. Now I'm a little bit over my skis because it's been 20 plus years

since I've even thought about this. Seriously, the server could run the window and then the client machine could just display that window and interact with it. And that's what I would love. Imagine you just had your dock in front of you virtually instead of the full Mac screen. And when I clicked anything on the dock, it would open a native VisionOS window of that application, all rendered client-side, but specified via this protocol back to the Mac. And if that ever happens, that would be super cool because then you could have infinitely many Mac screens and you could place them wherever you want around you arbitrarily. I think the reason it's not a priority for Apple is because they're trying to make native VisionOS apps a thing first

and that's not going super great. They're all just iPad apps. They don't let you do the things that macOS lets you do and so therefore I don't think that's going to pick up Steam as much. But I would still love to see it. I'd love to be able to just pull in

Mac applications just like I'd love to be able to run macOS in VisionOS. I feel like VisionOS is really hobbled by the piss-poor app ecosystem of what's available in Vision OS and the current developer sentiment of it just being another iPad. I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. And to that end, the ultra-wide that they've announced,

which is they framed it as the equivalent of two 4K displays. And so the rumors leading up to this was like, Oh, it'll let you do two displays. And I did not like this idea because the reason I don't run two displays in real life is I don't want that seam in the middle of now I've got to like organize these. And it just didn't occur to me that of course Apple could just make it one

contiguous display. And so you'll get this nice big ultra wide wraparound. And I think there's some intermediate pretty wide. I think it's normal 4K, and then there's a pretty wide, and then there's an ultra-wide. I don't know what that... It looks like there's three step changes here. Ultra-wide max.

There's a full 180 degrees. Yeah, so it's got to be wide, max-wide, and ultra-wide to get the ordering. Yeah, exactly. I think that'll be really great, because I'll be that'll be really great because I'll be able to see more and I'll be able to move more stuff around. And why not? Because you've got infinite space around you.

But it almost felt, my first reaction was like, this is almost an admission that having a little sidecar Vision OS app, which is what I've been doing next to the Mac displays, is not worth it. I would throw that overboard in a minute to get the ultra wide, just give me more Mac stuff. Because even just trying to

context switch between a Vision OS app and the Mac display is just enough friction that it's not worth it most of the time. It's got to be frustrating to Apple, right? They built this whole freaking operating system, this whole app architecture, and this whole way to do things.

And it is really good, it's just like there's not much to do with it. The more that people use this thing as just a glorified monitor, the less appealing, and the more that they invest in making that a nicer experience, the less appealing the app platform will be. So I think that's probably the parting thought that I'd have looking at VisionOS 2, is wondering, in the near-term future of the platform, is that what this is going to be

some number of nerds are going to use this as a virtual mac display other people are going to buy it because that demoed really well in the apple store and then they're never going to use it and meanwhile all of that usage is going to be just enough to kind of keep apple on their toes to develop the platform further until it actually is viable as a mainstream consumer product. What they need is some kind of a Vision OS lounge. You know that there's internet cafes? They should have an Apple Vision Pro Cafe where you can just bring your laptop in. I just want to try your world for a few hours.

I don't want to live there. I don't want to buy a house. I live in Disney World. Next time you guys have a trip. Do you live in Celebration? No, I i live just my house literally borders reedy creek okay but i'm on the east side so i'm just a normal neighborhood full of most i wouldn't say normal people full of people who live in orlando floridians yeah yes floridians yes florida men yes florida people yes well i Florida men. Yes. Florida people. Yes. Well, I like this idea of this. I wonder if we can hypothesize a bit if the Vision Pro can get lighter if they removed all the smarts from it, like you had said, with this unified, centralized computer for the house that has many functions.

It's got backups. It's got photo storage. And this is stuff that maybe Apple's traditionally not for, but they do have lots of storage. But something that acts as like what a NAS would act as for a household. Photo syncing, things like that. If they can begin to build this world and the Apple Vision Pro, whatever it is today, shrinks size in footprint in weight etc because you have this centralized with doing things and maybe you still keep this apple vision pro for when you're on the go so there's still a need for one that computes but generally when you're in a house like you are

you don't really the benefit of the compute in the thing is not necessarily good because you've got a mac sitting over there just virtualizing And all you really want is the visual appeal of what you're getting, not so much the compute. Because that's kind of cool, honestly. The rumor is that's how the product started, or it was on that track. And then SirJohnnyIve came and said, no, it's got to be, the computer's got to be in the thing. Because there was like a base station component as well

that had to be on a wireless leash of a couple meters or something. So I think the product existed sort of in that vein for a while. Is there latency when you do the virtual stuff with your Mac? So traveling in Japan, I actually took this thing with me. I got a slightly bigger backpack than usual, and I didn't get a special case. I just kept shoving it deep in there. Shove it in.

Shove it in. My goal was, at the hotel at night, I would use the Vision Pro like I normally do get a special case. I just kept shoving it deep in there. Shove it in. Shove it in. My goal was I would like at the hotel at night, I would use the vision pro like I normally do my normal routine. What I found almost immediately is on wifi networks. You don't control if either the Mac or the vision pro is on a wifi network. And that wifi network is like a hotel wifi network. It's just like anything with MDNS or Bonjour protocol. It's like,

it is a hostile environment to that kind of Apple peer-to-peer networking that things like to do. Right. There's a couple things that they do, too, in networks to enable or disable how fast that protocol works. Right. How much bandwidth it can take up and so forth. The latency was so bad. It would often be, I'd press a key and then I'd one, two, three, and then, and then the letter would show up in most hotels that I just gave up after a while. And that was surprising to me because if you actually turn off the wireless

Nick in both devices and they're neither are on a network, you can still use Mac virtual display and it works great. So it might be something that Apple can optimize around, but that was the only time that I've observed any sort of latency issues. Cause when I'm at home, it's flawless. I believe it's, you mentioned MDNS and I think the other one is IGMP snooping, AKA multicast filtering that you can enable or disable networks to make things that are like apple-esque do better across the subnets and whatnot yeah what a bummer so there is latency on networks you don't control which kind of makes sense sucks but makes sense hypothetically i would

be down with a centralized, beefy Apple machine. In theory, I think since I'm such a fan of Linux and such a fan of other things, I would probably be a fan of the idea, not the execution. I think Apple would guard and hold too much. Literally, I would be the happiest person, well, one of the happiest people ever, if Apple would come out in one of these WWDCs and say every future Mac or every Apple Silicon Mac ever

will support installing Linux as well as macOS. Like if I can opt out of macOS and get Linux on a machine, that'd be cool. And if they had partnered with Ubuntu or whomever was like the Goliath that just enabled the future Linux desktop forever kind of idea, is finally here idea, that'd be cool. Are we in Adam's wishing this or is he predicting this? It's both, I think.

I think it's both. I think Apple would have some major plus on their side if they came out and said, we create the best hardware, obviously, with how much effort they do. They believe that. And they obviously create some of the best operating system software out there. We're all loving it, of course, right?

And they marry those two things together. But they said, you know what? The world does have one other operating system out there that's free and open source in every way, shape, and form that free can be. And we want to support that too on our hardware. I think that would be so absolutely cool. And they probably sell a lot more hardware because there's people out there buying other hardware that is not so much subpar because a

lot of great players out there i got a system 76 t-shirt i often wear on on shows big fan of them haven't on a machine but i play with them i respect anybody like driving linux forward especially the desktop because it hasn't arrived fully yet there's a lot of people who use it but it's just not here i think the linux desktop might actually arrive if they did something like this because Apple devices are so ubiquitous, and they really are some of the best hardware ever. If they would support Linux by default as well as macOS, either or, not some sort of in the middle,

it'd be amazing for PR. It'd be amazing for linux it'd be amazing for the linux desktop we've all been thinking may actually arrive this year which hasn't and i think you'd see a lot of people choosing linux in certain scenarios now that being said i got there by saying i would be excited about this centralized mac machine that powers my whole house and my you know vision non-pros and my vision pros or whatever how are they prioritize this thing in theory only because i still love the freedoms of linux i still love to install packages and do different things so maybe the hardware i'd like the hardware but

not the software i don't know you uh you drew a very your prediction drew a very uh rare double eyebrow raise simultaneously from Jared and I. Same time? Jared, I'm curious. Let's clip that. The double eyebrow. Okay, what are your thoughts then as I pontificated and wished at the same time? My thoughts?

I think it's a nice wish. I just don't think there's any reason for Apple to do that. It doesn't play to their their strengths they don't need the pr okay here would be one reason although mac os is not the bastion of the regulation against apple you know it would be if there were reasons of monopolistic or anti-competitive practices that were required that were causing regulators to come after them as they are, for instance, in the App Store, as they are, for instance, on iOS.

If those things were happening at the macOS level and this somehow won them brownie points with regulators, that would be the one reason why I think they might consider to do something like that. But otherwise, I just don't see any reason why they would ever do that. I agree. That's why it's more why they would ever do that. I agree. That's why it's more of a wish than a prediction

because I agree. I think what you just outlined would be one of the reasons why they would do it, potentially the only reason why they would do it because they don't gain much really at all. And it just kind of sucks when you get to certain obsolescence with a Mac hardware

and you can't install the latest Mac OS operating system. And then like this machine's still amazing. I take great care of all my machines. I got super old machines that... You can run Linux on them, right? You just want Apple to like rubber stamp it or what? Well, so all the workarounds with Linux, especially on Apple Silicon is a workaround. I haven't caught up. So I could be mistaken to some degree, but they're not blessed by Apple. They're workarounds from the dev community who love the hardware

and want to see Linux live there. Now, older Intel machines, yes, but as soon as you introduce that T1 or that T2 chip, whatever that additional chip was, it caused issues. And Linux, you could install it, but you would have issues. And you'd have to do workarounds

and install non-free open source packages. And you to do different things to get linux to live there and operate there so they just don't have native support for it you can't i've got older 2004 mac minis i've converted from the two and a half spinning hard drive to an ssd i've gutted it put an ssd in there it's got RAM. It's got four cores and I've run Proxmox on that. And they make nice little, when Raspberry Pis were not available, Raspberry Pi replacements, because you can install Proxmox and do a bunch of cool stuff that you could not do on a Raspberry Pi. And I've never really had any issues with them, but they're old. Four cores, you can't expand beyond that that but they do give it life and i think

the thing i'm camping out on is more like once the device that i've taken care of has become to apple's eyes obsolete and they don't let me install the latest operating system it kind of dies in the vine or for the most part becomes less and less useful but still has so much value to give and if they would bless that with Linux, I could hand that down to a young person who's just learning because it's got no value to me as a hardware, but as a software standpoint, I can't give them the latest Mac OS.

So give them Linux, the latest version of it. It would be a green argument, right? They could say that reuse is better than recycling. I think it's more likely that when a device becomes obsolete, software update will update it, and then on the next boot, the person will

just say, hey, your machine is obsolete. Here's a coupon for 10% off at Apple.com. And then just inoperate the computer after a certain point. Because I feel that way anyway with Apple's operating systems. I have an original iPhone Edge sitting in the drawer. And maybe an old iPod Touch.

But the last version of the OS that it could run is so old now that you can go to zero websites because it doesn't have HTTPS, SSL certs for anything. So you're right. You would basically need Linux after a certain number of years. HTTPS, SSL, certs for anything. So you're right. You would basically need Linux after a certain number of years. On the note, though, of having this base station that you want, it's not just a Linux idea.

It's a Unix idea, and it's much older. And I pulled up the YouTube of WWDC 1997 right after Steve Jobs came back. Wow. He did this big Q&A, and it's an hour and 10 hour and change long Q and a, and a lot of it's about, you know, like open document format and stuff that nobody cares about anymore. But some of it was really about the, the gestalt of like computing as it was happening in Steve jobs, the guy who had just been running next for over a decade, his brain,

as opposed to Steve jobs, the one who, who, you know, went back to Apple and made it all about hardware sales and product. And he made a couple of comments about how having that sort of client server nature of all of your documents. So nice.

He's like, I'm at home and I can, you know, turn on my, my computer. And then, or my, I, he's at Apple now. So he's, I think says I Mac. And he's like, I'm at home and I can, you know, turn on my computer and then, or my, he's at Apple now. So he's, I think says iMac and he's like, no, I guess I'm existing. Anyway, I turn on my computer and my user directory is exactly the same as when I go drive into work because it's all synced in one central place. And of course that's like the sync became a four

letter word, but like that was the dream that they were trying to implement with iCloud and kind of have, right? I've got a Mac studio here. I've got my M3 MacBook Air there. I sync my documents and desktop and most of my other files via iCloud. I mostly don't have to think about it. And so I think that was achieved, but it was really cool. And I think you might enjoy watching this video because it's much more like unix steve jobs and so from a spiritual alignment perspective i think that you'd find a lot to like in at least his attitude around a lot of the same the same basic vibe yeah we'll do that up and drop in the show notes if we can well maybe we finish where we started which was the land of the rising sun. Let me tell you about Asahi Linux.

Is that how you say it, Justin? Asahi? Asahi. Asahi Linux, which is an effort to port Linux to Apple Silicon Max. We've been trying to get some Asahi Linux folks on the show. We've had many, many listeners say, please talk about this. And they just keep saying no, basically, or ignoring us. So if you are plugged into Asahi Linux

and you could give us a plug into that community and get one of the leaders of the community to talk to us, that'd be awesome. Jared, we'll send you a free case of Asahi beer. Yes, of which I don't know if that's good. I hope that's good beer. It's great beer if you're in Japan. If you're what?

If you're in Japan. Although I think that if you find Asahi beer on Draft in America, it's been imported. That's how you know it's the real deal. I'll have to look out for that. But yeah, Asahi Linux seems to run well. I think a lot of the energy around Asahi Linux, if I'm not wrong,

is that people are running Proton, the equivalent of Steam's game developer toolkit for being able to run Windows games in a Linux environment. And so whether or not that's why you want to use Linux, it's at least, I think, given it some reason for existence. Yeah, it's a super cool project. And it's not just a distro. It's like bigger than distros

or maybe like underneath a distro. The way they're doing it, it's like drivers and a bunch of low-level stuff that will enable other distros or distros in general, such as Fedora, such as perhaps Ubuntu.

I don't know. I haven't looked too close into it. Don't go installing it, by the way, because I said games could run in it. I'm saying that I think that a lot of development energy that could happen down the road and people are working towards it,

but I don't think it's a... So there may be one answer to Adam's wish, is that project, you know, Apple may never ever stamp it, but you can't stop the hackers from hacking, you know? Their hackers are going to hack. Yes, always be hacking. We're going to hack that stuff up there.

I was aware of Asahi Linux. It's just I haven't had spare Apple Silicon hardware to test it on. I've only got one. That's all the new stuff. Yeah. Next time you upgrade, I will try it. When you get that iPhone 15 Pro Max,

you know you'll have your iPhone 14 Pro. That's not M. Silicon, that's A. But still, obsolete. Good place to leave it, though. Rising Sun, Asahi Linux. I think, Jared, you deserve points for the segue. Thank you. Kudos.

Well executed. What a pro. I thought it was a good tieback to the beginning of the show. So, I agree with you. That was good by me. Let's just keep it green with Jared, and that's the show. That's just it. Jared, you're amazing.

You're so good. Thank you. What is it like? We are not worthy. Tell me more. That's right. Are you talking? Big fan.

Good Wayne's World reference. For one of the first times, we are not worthy. For one of the first. Good stuff, though. Well, Justin, always good talking to you. Always good hearing hearing i think you're definitely a trailblazer when it comes to the ways to use the apple vision pro i know

jared and i talked about it on episode 40 it was very you know fresh and new in terms of like wow that's really an interesting way to use it and like you're sticking with it you it's you're not a once and done you're like knee deep steeped in this stuff and you're not quitting. Are you quitting? No. I mean, honestly, like this was for me overall, I know a lot of people are upset for various reasons. A lot of apps got Sherlocked, you know, shout out to Casey list and call sheet like, like that they didn't love this keynote, but I thought the keynote was great.

I thought the platform state of the union last night was great. I've been watching some sessions this morning from like the day one sessions. There's a lot of good stuff. It seems to me if you just rewind five years ago, like, well, yeah, iOS 13, right? That was the one that was just an absolute trash fire. Nothing was working. All those betas especially came in super hot. You know, they had to like delay it wasn't like 13.1. So the iPad OS got delayed until some hardware shipped. And fundamentally, the problem there was that you had different teams working on different versions of the app for different platforms. They didn't have their kind of annual cadence locked in from a quality and milestones perspective.

And now the Apple that we see today, it just seems like they are, now that they're, they have the confidence to roll out features incrementally. This is a later this year, this is a 2025, this you'll see it in 0.4, 0.5. I feel like they are firing on all cylinders as best that they've ever done so far. And so I can be confident, like these features are going to ship, these APIs are going to be good. The quality will be good enough most of the time. And then, of course, ironically, Swift, they celebrated the 10-year anniversary of Swift in the State of the Union last night.

And then the very next slide was, and now we finally have a testing framework. So Swift testing just now came out in the 10th year. So it shows Apple's priorities, but honestly, in terms of the Apple way of rolling, it seems like there's a lot to be expected. Whether you're a Vision Pro user or just a general fan of their platforms, I think there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic right now.

Well said. Good stuff. Well, friends, this has been fun. Yep. Bye, friends. Bye. Goodbye. Goodbye.

What do you think about Justin's Vision Pro life? Is he ahead of the curve or simply an outlier? And how about our WWDC hot takes? Did we drill it? Are we missing something? Let us know in the comments. There's a link in your show notes we would love to hear from you. Thanks once again to our partners at Fly.io, to our awesome sponsors of this episode, 1Password, Chronitor, and Sentry. Use code CHANGELOG when you sign up for a Sentry team plan

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