The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - Retired, not tired. (Interview)

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

Kelsey Hightower is back to share more of his wisdom. This time it's one year after his retirement from Google. But guess what? He might be "retired," but he's not tired. In this episode Kelsey shares what drives him, what he fears, and how he thinks through his life choices and parenting. This is a good one.

This is the changel Log. Welcome back. I'm Adam Stachowiak, Editor-in-Chief here at Change Log. We feature the hackers, the leaders, and the innovators in the world of software. Guess who is back? Back again. Tell a friend. Yes, Kelsey Hightower. He's back. And this time around, he is laying down some extreme wisdom on this show. I can't wait to release this show because I'm going to listen back again and again and again. And I hope you do too. Put it on repeat. And once you've done that, hop in Slack,

changelog.com slash community. It's free to join and share what you think about this episode. Big thank you to our friends and our partners at fly.io. That is the home of changelog.com. You can launch your apps, you can launch your databases, and you can even launch your AI near your users. Too easy with no ops. Learn more at fly.io. All right, here we go. What's up, friends? I'm here with a new friend of mine, Jasmine Cassis, product manager at Sentry. She's been doing some amazing work. Her and her teams over many years being at Sentry and her latest thing is just awesome. User feedback. You can now enable a widget on the front end of

your website powered by Sentry that captures user feedback. Jasmine, tell me about this feature. Well, I'm Jasmine. I am a product manager at Sentry and I'm approaching my three-year anniversary. So I've spent a lot of time here. I work on various different customer-facing products. More recently, I've been focused on this user feedback widget feature, but I've also worked on session replay in our dashboards product. With user feedback, I am particularly excited about that. We launched that a few weeks ago. Essentially what it allows you to do is it makes it very easy to connect the developer to the end user, your customer. So you can immediately hear from your, basically who you're building for, for your audience. And you can get, basically have a good understanding of a wide range of bugs.

So Sentry automatically detects things like performance problems and exceptions. But there are other bugs that can happen on your website, such as broken links, or a typo or permission problem. And that is where the user feedback widget comes in. And it captures that additional 20% of bugs that may not be automatically captured. I think that's why it's so special. And what takes it a step level above these other feedback tools and these support tools that you see is that when you get those feedback messages, they're connected to Sentry's rich debugging context and telemetry.

Because often, I've seen it myself, I read a lot of user feedback, messages are cryptic, they're not descriptive enough to really understand the problem the user is facing. So what's great about user feedback is we connect it to our replay product, which essentially basically shows what the user was doing at that moment in time, right before reporting that bug. And we also connect it to things such as screenshots. So we created the capability for a user to upload a screenshot so they could highlight something specific on the page that they're referring to. So it kind of removes the guesswork for what exactly is this feedback submission

or bug report referring to. Now, I don't know about you, but I have wanted something like this on the front end pretty much since forever. And the fact that it ties into the session replay, ties into all your tracing, ties into all of the things that Sentry does to make you a better developer and to make your application more performant and amazing. It's just amazing. You can learn more by going to Sentry.io. That's S-E-N-T-R-Y.io.

And when you get there, go to the product tab and click on user feedback. That will take you to the landing page for user feedback. Dive in, learn all you can. Use our code changelog to get 100 bucks off a team plan for free. Now, what she didn't mention was that user feedback is given to everyone. So if you have a Sentry account, you have user feedback. So go and use it. If you're already a user, go and get it on your front end. And if you're not a user, well then, hey, use the code changelog, get a hundred bucks off a team plan for three-ish

months, almost four months. Once again, Sentry.io. So we're back with, I would say you're a good friend. Would you say you're a good friend now, Kelsey? Yeah, I'm a friend of the pod at this point. I think so. What about a friend of me, of us, specifically? Are we friends? Yeah, we're cool, too. I talk to y'all when I see y'all in person.

That's right. All right. Well, almost exactly to the day, almost, like a few weeks shy, we did a show with you that was called Even the Best Rides Come to an End. And that sounded kind of negative, right?

To some degree, like your retirement was unexpected. People are thinking maybe you won't be out there, but you're out there and you're doing stuff. I even saw a tweet the other day saying, I thought you retired.

And you're like, nah, I didn't retire. You said, I retired, I'm not tired. I'm retired, not tired. Exactly. Thank you, Jared. Yeah, I think this idea that the only way to do stuff is to have an employer. And they list out the things they need you to do.

And you go in there from nine to five and you do those things. And the idea that you could be self-directed, the idea that you could come up with your own list is foreign to a lot of people and I understand why. But I think in this tech game, there is a lot of value into those that can just explore the things that they want to explore and kind of detach from that if possible. So I found it to be possible. And yeah, it's been almost a whole year. I still do the paid keynotes. I still advise the tech companies that I'm most interested in. Companies come and go. And as those new companies come around, they still tap in and say, hey, we're trying to bring this thing to market. You have a lot of experience,

especially with our audience, what we're trying to do. Can you help? And so what you find out is that you're still relevant in those circles right it doesn't all go away just because uh you left your employer and so what is work and i think that's the real question what is work and what type of work do do you want to do do you have just numerous opportunities on your table is it lots of no's few yeses what's What's, what's it like to be a morning in your shoes, so to speak? Yeah, a lot of no's. But you said yes to us, a friend of the pod, man. Yeah, but y'all, y'all like fam. Yeah, like these podcasts are important because, you know, when I,

there are people out of the blue, they'll say, hey, I was in a gym and I was listening to a podcast and you said something that really stuck with me and I just want to reach out and say, thank you for saying that because I really needed that. So these podcasts are important because, you know, although I love speaking with you all, we're always speaking through the camera. We're always speaking through the speakers.

There's always someone on the other side. And when I was starting in tech, I was like, man, if people would just, you know, share a little bit more, just a little bit more, it could probably shave off a bunch of years off of my timeline. So I still do those. So saying yes to things that I know have good outcomes. You all are so good at this as well, right? It's not like I have to edit the podcast. You know, you're highly professional, you know, ask really good questions. So those are easy yeses the no's are uh come speak for free halfway around the world go buy a flight purchase a hotel and do it for the community it's like hey

guys i don't i don't need to be paying to speak at a conference i don't have anything to sell anybody there is no really reason for me to go and do a bunch of work for free so those are the easy notes so you've settled in now. It's been a year. You probably found what's working, what you like, what's not working. The freedom is freeing, but it also can be constraining because now you got to decide

how you're going to spend your time and on what. Just curious, have you settled in? Do you feel comfortable? Do you like this lifestyle more? Are you thinking, well, maybe I'll try to start a new thing and become a businessman again? I know you're a businessman, Jay-Z style, but you know, well, maybe I'll try to start a new thing and become a businessman again? I know you're a businessman, Jay-Z style, but you know, like a traditional businessman.

What are you thinking? Like, how are you, how are you feeling it out now? That pressure comes with societal pressure, right? When you have to tell people, what do you do? And you have to have a good answer that they want to hear. That pressure comes from, you know, maybe you need that private jet and you don't have one, right? So now you got to figure out how to get a private jet. So even if you got, even if you're like $50 short of the private jet, you can't sleep at night because you can't afford the private jet. So I don't have any of those. So I don't need anything to pop. I don't need the next startup to go IPO. I don't need any of that. So when that goes away, then you just do things you think are worth doing. For example, I bought some bidets from Toto. My wife was like, I want a bidet. I said,

let's get a bidet. It turns out the bidet needs 1400 watts of power. You can't plug that into your normal outlets because you got to make a choice. Do you blow dry your hair or use the bidet? If you do both at the same time, the breaker will trip. So I learned how to run a wire and got my permit and ran wire from the electrical box through one floor, through the attic, stapled it across the attic, all electrical codes, ran 20 amp circuit, got the breaker, all the protections. And that was a whole project. And it doesn't, you know And it doesn't need to be put on GitHub. It doesn't have to become content. It's just a thing where I learned a whole bunch of things that trades people go to school for. And I learned how to do this new thing. And that feels good.

I have this new skill. I got a bunch of new tools in the tool bag. It feels like when I was learning tech for the first time, right? I'd never logged into a server before. You know, I might break something, right? So like, how do you do this properly? How do you do it safely? Should I really leave port 22 open? So it's like getting to relive that. And again, it doesn't like, well, how are you going to make money running electrical wires?

I don't need to be an electrician to learn this particular skill. That's what it feels like. I can say yes to stuff. Hey, my friend's having a birthday party. It's going to be lots of dancing. Before, I could be like. I can say yes to stuff. Hey, my friend's having a birthday party. There's going to be lots of dancing. Before, I could be like, hey, I'm a little too busy. I got to take a flight somewhere. I won't be able to make it. Now I can just say yes. I don't even like dancing that much. But now I can just say yes and just go and enjoy the moment. I'm not thinking about unanswered emails. I can be present. So that's where it's like, hey, I have a little bit more room to do stuff that for a lot of people doesn't matter. That's great. I love that part.

Now, I don't want to linger here too long, but bidets, totally worth it or not worth the effort? What's your review? Totally worth it. I mean, if you think about it, you know, the sales pitch for bidets is that everything else we clean with water. You wash your car with water. You take a shower with water. You brush your teeth with water. But the only thing we do in some societies, because apparently a large portion of the world uses bidets as cultural things from a long time ago. But this idea that you're going to wipe with this two-ply, some of y'all out here on that one ply getting your fingers dirty.

You're going to wipe a few times and throw it all in the toilet and flush it. And then you know you ain't clean. You know what I mean? People will think back to their teenage years. Hopefully, this is not the case for you beyond your teenage years. You look in those underwear after you take them off, you're like, hey man, I haven't been wiping thoroughly. So that bidet, that whole experience of using water to also wash down there changes like what it means to be clean. Huh. Right? And so for some people, you know, you go to some countries and you say you don't have a bidet.

They're like, what are you doing? Right. How are you cleaning that area? So I think it's worth it. It's been worth it. I don't know if it was worth it to get the addition that I bought that uses all this power. It was a big project. Yeah, but it's definitely something I think people should look into from a medical device, cleaning device in the house.

I don't want to bust your bubble and I'm glad that you had the opportunity to say yes and to learn electrical. But there are alternative options for bidets that are like a hundred bucks. Yeah, and they don't have hot water. Okay. They're cold. You know what I mean? You go get one of those tushies. And I tried one, like you go get one of the ones for a hundred bucks. They totally work. They'll spray water on you and you better hope the temperature's good or you get a rude awakening. Right? Like, so there's, there's levels to this, right? So the ones that have. He did his research, Adam.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can go get the $100 one and then call me in the winter. Maybe not. Wise words. Yeah. Well, so I know this because I have a friend who's like swearing by a bidet just like you are. And he's like, listen, you don't have to go and do the whole what you did. You can just get this one thing.

This is what we use. We love it. And they're a neighbor. So I was like okay great i didn't consider the temperature of the water although we do live in texas and room temperature is usually in the 70s but 70 degree water is different than 120 degree water or maybe maybe 110 105 i think most people are fine with the manual yeah thing but here's the thing you got this manual hose and if you get your technique right over time,

you'll probably make less of a mess for sure. Technique. But when you start to see, look, we're engineers and you walk in and the toilet seat opens, the nightlight comes on, little mist sprays in the bowl. This thing aims perfectly.

You hit the little dryer button. You got a Kelsey switch on there and then you had a wife switch, maybe a kid switch. You got settings four it has four programmable modes no way so like yeah so you sit down and like angle it kelsey angles blah blah everything you need and so it's one of those things where it's like um you know some people say you'll save some tissue some people it's just a thing that that's where the tech is okay right so the tech is at that point where you know you got levels to this you can You can write code using Pico or you can use VS Code. It's up to you. They both will get the job done.

Right. But there's some advantages to having a few more functions and some automation. Right. I almost want to go one more TMI layer deeper, Jay. What do you think? Should I go TMI deeper? We don't got to go deeper. I don't think man this is deep man we already did the uh technology and everything it's all good all right we'll leave it there then so i gotta imagine then as part of do you want to linger here more in the bidet area jerry do you want to no no i do not want you okay i know you said you want to linger for a second just in case i don't want to deviate okay so you're consulting for companies implementations give me an example of how that plays out. So I'm very careful. I am not anyone's consultant. I'm not writing no code. I'm not producing no content. I am not doing anything that your team could be doing.

Advisory is totally different. From a legal perspective, advisory is different. And the advisory work is literally to advise. So for example, if you're Red Panda and you say, hey, Kelsey, you know, the founder over there, Alex, you know, we want to expand beyond Kafka. All right. And I'm like, look, Alex, Kafka is great. You can go out and compete and do drop in replacements for the Confluent crowd all day. But then there's another wave, another generation of people who don't do streaming at all because it's too hard. And if you go tell them they got to go download the Kafka client to do anything, that's too much. So what do we need? We need an HTTP interface. We need something that can integrate with Next.js. We got to lower that bar way down without giving up the potential power. And here's how you roll it out. Here's how you do it over time, right? This is

what the price point's got to be. You got to make sure that it can run on-prem. Maybe you start with a managed service, and maybe you got to tone down the enterprise angle to get some of that Heroku type on-ramp where it's like, oh, this is just the easiest thing to do to pass messages around. You go look at the ecosystem. What parts are you missing? That company looks like they have what you need. What does an acquisition look like? Maybe you don't acquire that particular company. And then the accountability on the advisory side is that when they make these moves, if you're going to be an advisor more than a year, then you got to have results, right?

It's got to be like, hey, we did that thing. You have the trust of the engineering team. You have the trust of the sales team. You have the trust of all these teams. So that's where the advisory is. Hey, we're having trouble selling the product. How is it priced? Let me see the email conversations. You can't talk to people like that. You have to give them guidance on like, how long is this going to take? How much is it going to cost? I know you want to sell product that big companies need pro serve. Either you're going to do it or a third party is

going to do it. But these are like the advisory things where not all companies can go hire a cool executive team that has decades of experience that knows how to do these things. So if you're a founder, having like a second pair of eyes or third pair of eyes who can kind of give you somewhat non-biased feedback loop, it's important. So that's the type of work that I tend to do when it comes to the advisory stuff. So that's the stuff that I still like doing. Writing code is not what I want to do for money at all. There's enough people in the world that are doing that. I'm just trying to make sure that the experience that I built up over two decades has somewhere to go. I just don't want it to go away.

And the best outlet has been helping the next generation of companies do their thing. This reminds me of a term I've heard recently, which I don't know much about, so maybe you can school me. But it sounds a lot like what they're calling fractional CTOs. Are you familiar with this concept? I am. I am. I mean, I think that's also cool. You know, some people have fractional assistants. You just need help sometimes making decisions, right? If you think about a founder, if you're a solo founder, maybe there's two people and let's say you start to get 10 people, there are CTO like responsibilities. You're just not going to have time to do. So some founders rather focus on like sales and growing the business and hiring, but who makes the CTO

like decisions? The struggle part about this though, is that these are big long-term decisions. So if someone is only coming in for a fraction of their time, you don't know how this works. It's easy to drop in, give advice, and then dip. That's really, hey, you guys are doing it wrong. Maybe do it better and be out. Like that's a thing. We may or may not do that on a weekly basis, Adam.

I don't know. Yeah. On the shows, we give advice and then we go to the next show. I think we're very fractional. I agree. If you're a fractional CTO, you might come in and say, hey, here's how you lay out your two-year plan

for spending money in the cloud. Here's how you negotiate discounts. You wouldn't believe most people don't know how to negotiate a cloud contract. So if you can hire someone that can save you 30%, that's a good deal. Maybe you're not ready for a full-time CTO. So you bring in someone that has that function.

Some people just need an outbound CTO that can talk to customers. Hey, this is what we're doing. Here's the vision. Here's the story. Maybe you don't have anyone on your team that can do that. My advisory is more like, Kelsey, we've seen your work. We know what you do. Your credentials are valid for us. We can't afford to hire you though. But we would love some input on what we're doing. We got developers. They do a good job. We have some serial founders. They do a good job, but we're love some input on what we're doing. We got developers. They do a good job. We have some serial founders. They do a good job, but we're missing something. And sometimes it's as simple as like, give me the story. And I'm like, that's not the story. And I pay back the story for them. And they're like, we never positioned what we were building in that way.

And they go test it with customers. They go test it at the conferences and they come back like, Kelsey, people get it now. We're going to rename the product. We're going to make a little pivot on how we approach this. How much is that worth if you have only two years of runway? If you're out here telling the wrong story for a year and a half, you only got six more months before it's over. So getting the story right within three months means a lot. I rather people understand what we're doing and they just don't want to buy it versus

they don't even understand what we're doing. So we can't even get to a conversation about what to buy. And that is surprisingly big for a large set of companies that are out here that no one knows what the hell they do and they run out of money before they can help them understand. Yeah. We, uh, we face that a lot because we, we tend to work with earlier stage folks who want to come to us for really awareness. We have something we need to test it. Sometimes they come to us premature even, and they know that. And I'm like, what are you getting from this engagement with us? We're a podcast.

We obviously have ears around the world, and we want to share your story in compelling ways. But you don't even have product market fit. You're not even sure where you're at. So what do you really gain from? And I ask them these hard questions because I'm not just trying to sell an ad. I'm trying to sell someone who is a long-term partner and we can truly help. And obviously the conduit is some version of sponsorship, some version of ad. But I'm like, I don't know if we can help you. And they're like, no, you can, because we just need to have people come talk to us about where we're currently at. And that all we want okay great i guess we can do that so cool as long as you know what we're

doing here and you're not bummed out when you don't get conversions that you just get eyeballs or interest that maybe 99 goes away then okay i'm cool with that because i want to sell you value it's unfortunate that that is what they believe the game to be because it's worked for so long, right? Like the old game was just get popular enough, give away the product. Maybe you can't even sell the product, but give it away. And maybe someone will buy you who believes they can sell it. And so for some founders is literally just get the word out, get the logo pop in, get a thousand free signups and unload this thing before anyone finds out you can't sell it. And there's been a lot of exes that have worked that way. But the truth is these days, the exit's a little slower. People aren't getting that round A, that round B. And so now they figure

out I have to actually sell their product. So I tell a lot of people, you're not ready to make no noise. The product is not usable. I've tried it. You can't actually do anything with it. And maybe if you're listening to this and you're a founder, you don't get to make noise two and three times. First time you make some noise and I pay attention and it's nothing. The next time you make noise, I'm like, I don't know. I might look again. After that, it's like, dude, I don't think you understand what's happening here you're wasting your shots so use them wisely right like make sure like if you're gonna you know spend all this money on outbound when people show up have something have something that they can do yeah i think what you do well is you take complex scenarios frameworks stories even and simplify them and you're a very story driven and packaging focused kind of person from my understanding like you take Very complex things and distill it down

Into ways which has been a hallmark of your career has been able to do that Consistently not everybody can do that, right? I mean that's that's a skill Or maybe a a birth talent. You got it at birth and you just learned you had it and you're charismatic and you can share a story and people listen to you and you've got to flow, right? You've got to flow to your voice. And so people find that interesting or, I don't know, soothing. Pick a word, right? Malifilus, I'll share it with you.

Compelling. Right, compelling, right? Malifilus, I'll share it with you. Compelling. Right, compelling, right? You have a way of taking what seems to be very complex or disjointed, simplifying it, connecting it, and sharing it away and packaging it in particular in a way that people get and understand and can get excited about. I'm going to take a moment and appreciate the compliment. Take it, take it.

But I think the thing is people are born, that's a human thing. It's a societal thing for hundreds, if not thousands and thousands of years. Humans do this by default. This is what you do by default. When you're nine years old and you go outside and I don't know, you get bit by a little rodent and you come in. Notice how kids tell that story. I was outside playing and we were just climbing trees, I promise. And I climbed the tree, I slid down and I mean, this thing was big as a giraffe and it just bit me. And I can't believe I survived. And they start crying mid sentence because now they're flush with emotion because they're reliving the experience.

But in professional setting, we're told not to do that. We're told you're not a person. You are a Linux system administrator level three. You do Terraform, Linux, maybe F5 from time to time. That's it. Those are the three bullet points. And when you come into work, we want all interaction with other humans to be via Jira tickets. You get a ticket assigned to you. You respond to the ticket within this timeframe. That's it. And then every once in a while, every quarter, we'll tell you how good you are. That's it. And so you rehearse that. You become that. So when it's time to talk to actual people, you don't know how to do it. Your manager relationship is my boss. My boss told me to

do it. I don't look back. I do what they tell me because I need this job. So you have no practice at actually being a human being. It goes away at some point. So what I end up doing, luckily for me, when I found the courage to let the slides go, when I found the courage to let the speaker notes go, and I'm just talking to you, just like you talk to your family right now and every day. I'm talking to people. So people seem like, whoa, what is he doing? He's not doing the stuff that we've been taught to do. He's speaking his mind. It's not about just facts. There's something about experience plus facts equals opinion. So my opinion of this thing, I don't like it for this

reason. I like it for this reason. You can disagree, but at least I'm giving you something to agree or disagree with. That's not the norm. The norm is I'm going to do this talk just like a website. I'm just going to put everything on the slide and read it back to you. And as long as I don't mess up too much or as long as I don't fall down, I'm going to say good talk. What? Who gave the talk?

I don't even remember their name, but I think they were talking about Agile. What is that? That's not natural. And so I think the storytelling part is, and I've seen a lot of people get very far in their career by being the magician. I can do something no one else can do, so they need me. And so you build your career around this mystery. I'm the only one that can write code. I'm the only one that knows how to deal with the Solaris box. So you go real far, not writing docs, not explaining, not training. You're just a go-to person. And most companies don't give a care about that. They're like, dude, I call a plumber. You can be the go-to person for the plumber because I have no interest in touching the toilet. So yes, I don't care about

your trade. Do what you want to do. And yeah, there's a bit of job security in that. But that part where you actually can explain it to someone, meaning for me, I need to understand it in simple terms. Like when people start thinking about AI stuff, oh, AI is going to take over the world. And most people are like, I think it will. Maybe I'll just wait until then and see what happens to me. And that's how they navigate that space. And if you're selling AI right now to that group of people, all you have to do is just keep the show going. Hey, look at this thing. It's smarter. It can do all these things. And they're like, oh man, this magician is amazing. I love it. I trust it. So you're like, hey,

if they don't understand, they're not asking questions, we'll keep this party going. Then someone shows up and says, hey guys, let me show you exactly how it works. Here's where it breaks. Here's how you fix it. Here's what it's actually doing underneath the covers. Now, once I do that, I can't sell you the same thing at the same price. Like Kelsey, now I know how to do it. Like, why would I pay you a premium for that thing? So I got to ask for more value than mystery. But the thing I do like about it though, is it makes people feel more comfortable. So when they to ask for more value than mystery. But the thing I do like about it though is it makes people feel more comfortable. So when they do hear the story and they still need it, it just makes sense. It's like, you know what? Now that I understand it, maybe I could even do

it myself. I don't want to. This makes sense to me. And I think a lot of our customers, if you're out here and you're in business, I'd rather have a customer that understands the value that I'm giving them than to be afraid of what happens if they didn't buy it. Because once someone comes in and finds out, the gig is over. Once people pull back that curtain and find out that there's not much there, like I remember some people thought you can only use Oracle in business. Then someone pulls back that veil and says, you know what? Postgres can do what you need. Now what? And so that's been my thing. And I just love being able to explain it. And the reason why this last thing I'll say here is when I'm learning anything complex,

you know that wow moment you get when you understand it yourself? I just replay that back. I like the way that feels. And so I go back and I do the same thing. I pace myself in a way. It's like, I'm not just going to get an answer because that would just be too boring. And that's what websites do. What I like to do is like, Hey, you know, this thing you're trying to do, here's what it looks like. And you know how when it breaks like this, and then we're all stuck, let me show y'all something. And I show it

to them. And then I reverse engineer so they can see how it works too. And then everyone feels good. Just like I did when I learned how to do it for the first time. That's a good formula. I like that one. What's up, friends? I'm here in the breaks with 1Password, our newest sponsor. We love 1Password. Mark is here, Mark Machenbach, Director of Engineering. So, Mark, you may know that we use 1Password in production in our application stack. We're diehard users of 1Password,

and I've been using 1Password for more than a decade now. I'm what I would consider a diehard, lifelong, never letting it go, private my cold dead hands type of user. And I love the tooling. I love specifically the new developer tooling over the last couple of years. But what are your thoughts on the tooling you offer now in terms of your SSH agent, your CIC integrations, the things that help developers be more productive?

I'm a developer myself, and I've been bugged for ages with all of the death by a million paper cuts is the expression I think. All of the friction you run into and we've come so used to, I don't know, you wake up, you grab your phone and your phone unlocks with your face

and everything's easy. But once you're a dev and you need to SSH into something, suddenly you need to type in a password and you need to figure out how to generate an RSA key or an elliptic curve key you need to know all these type of things and i don't know about you but i always still google

the ssh keygen command uh yeah every time and i've been in this industry for a bit and i still have to do it and that's just it's annoying uh it's friction that you don't need and it kills productivity as well it takes you out of out of your flow state and so that's why we decided to fix and make nicer, make better, better user experience for developers because they deserve good user experience too. I agree. They do. So let's talk about the CI CD integration you all have. I know we love this feature here at Change. So we use this in production, but help me understand the landscape of this feature set and how it works. Well, most CICD jobs nowadays, they reach out to somewhere. So

you publish a Docker image or you reach out to AWS or something, always go into like a third party service for which you need secrets, you need credentials. And so people see their GitHub actions config be peppered with secrets. Now, GitHub has been nice and they've built a little bit of a secret system around that. But once you need to update your config, you need to update in all the different places once you need to rotate it that also becomes harder and so what one password does is it allows you to put all your credentials in a one password vault just like you're used to and then sync those automatically to your github actions where they're needed and the same system that you use in your github actions actually also works if you have a production workload running somewhere on the server. And the same type of syntax and system also works when you're doing something locally on

your laptop, for instance. So if you're having a.env file, like a.env file, for instance, that's very notorious. People always have this in Teams and they slack it around out of band, so to speak, because they know that they shouldn't check it into source code. But we then have all these slack messages back and forth on, hey, do you have the latest version of the.env file? Because somebody made a change somewhere. And instead of that, what we actually really want is to just be able to check all that stuff into source code, but without having all the secrets in there. So with 1Password, you can check in references to the secrets instead of the secrets themselves. And then 1Password will resolve and sync all that automatically.

Yes, that's exactly how we're using 1Password. We store all of our secrets in a vault called changelog. And we declare a single secret in fly.io. This is where we host changelog.com. And the secret is named op underscore service underscore account underscore token and then we load all the other secrets we have into memory as part of the app boot via op and a file we made called env.op now inside of github actions we're still passing them manually but we do have a note to ourselves for future dev that we should use op here too but big deal to use this tooling like this in the application stack at boot,

we do it. And if you want an example of how to do it, check out our repo. I'll link up in the show notes, but we have an infrastructure.md file that explains everything. Obviously you can find the details in our code, but do yourself a favor, do your team a favor, go to onepassword.com slash changelogpod. and they got a bonus for our listeners. They've given our listeners an exclusive extended free trial to any 1Password plan for 28 days. Normally you get 14 days, but they're giving us 28 days, double the days. Make sure you go to 1password.com slash changelawpod to get that exclusive signup bonus or head to developer.1password.com to learn about 1Password's amazing developer tooling.

We use it, the CLI, the SSH agent, the Git integrations, the CICD integrations, and so much more. Once again, 1password.com slash changelowpod. So, you have complete freedom now to learn, to explore, and you only have to do things you want to do. That's amazing. Tell us about things that aren't electricity or bidets or plumbing or house projects that have you excited, have you interest, have you trying to peel back the covers and see how they work. What are you into right now? Because it's got to be pure, right? You don't have any reason not to be into it. Well, here's the thing. So one thing people don't talk about when you retire with all these things is what are you afraid of? What are you afraid of?

I'm not afraid of the job. I'm not afraid of a project failing. So what are you afraid of? What's left to be afraid of? And now when you have a little bit more time to pay attention to what's going on, all this stuff that you have that lets you retire. So what does it take to retire? Usually for most people, it takes money to retire. And so that means money still needs to be working. Money still needs to work in order for this to work. If we get hyperinflation, let's just say now minimum wage is $200 million. I don't care what your status is. You are now back at a reset, right? McDonald's starts saying $200 million an hour. I don't care how much money you have right now. It doesn't matter because the whole thing

has gotten reset. So I have a fear of not just like societal collapse, but a reset that you can't deal with, right? And as you get older, you may not be able to bounce back into that recess. So that always has me on edge of like, I need to pay attention. I still have to keep my eye on the prize. And also, I actually care about how people are actually doing. So stock market is way up. If you own stocks, your world is fine, right? Like, hey, everything's great. But then what are you going to buy with that money if the people you're buying it from aren't in good shape? If your doctor's not in a happy place, that's not good for you. If your neighbor's not in a happy place, that may not be good for you because that neighbor may be your teacher, it may be the firefighter, it may be the person that works at the utility plant keeping your water clean. Those people need to be in a good spot as well

for everything else to work. So I think for me, I still respect the dependency I have on people that I've never met. And if those people aren't in a good spot, then I still have things to think about. And I'm like, how do you solve that puzzle? Should we just ignore it and hopefully it fixes itself? Or should we try to use the same type of brainpower we did to build apps and cloud to think about people and society? You must think about inflation a lot then. Not to the point where I'm paralyzed by it, just the point where I just got to look at the meter. Just like when you're in ops, you got the dashboard up and you know you got disk space. You can probably buy more and there's things you can do to clean up the disk space ops, you got the dashboard up and you know, you got this space, you can probably

buy more and there's things you can do to clean up the disk space, but you got to at least have the graph up so you can know where the red line is. So I have the graph up. I'm trying to pay attention to the red line and I'm trying to understand what it actually means, right? So what's the hedge? The hedge is having equity in lots of new companies, right? The hedges having a paid off house. For me, the hedges learn some new skills. Like a lot of people think these tech skills are going to be around forever. Like this idea that, you know, in tech, we get paid a lot of money, but it doesn't mean it's going to always be that way, right? There's nothing stopping tech, at least right now, in many parts of the world, tech is not the highest paid profession you can do. So I think a lot of

people in certain societies don't realize that what we're getting paid is an anomaly. So hedging is like learning these additional skills and being at the ready that I may need to pivot into these things if the time ever came. So those are the things that I think about just because I'm a self-reflective person and I like to pay attention to what's going on. I guess what I meant paying attention to it closely is not like, man, let me check my watch. Let me check my dashboard this very moment, but more like just paying attention to it. I think there's a lot of people who are almost living bliss, right? Like ignorance they realize things cost more they realize things are not the way they were two years ago they realize money is less free meaning not only is it worth less but it's also cost more to get it

interests right and these are the levers that the fed is using specifically to here to the u.s and i think it's probably similar in other markets across the world in how it works, is that money is less free, you can't get it as easily, you can't borrow money as easily, and things cost more. I think that there's a lot of people out there who are not paying attention to that directly. They're paying attention to it indirectly by saying, I've got less in my wallet, I'm not making, or I'm making more, or the same, or whatever, but somehow I have less. They're paying attention to it in the symptom, not the actual problem. I think a lot of people are like

that. And so you said you mentioned fear. Like, what do you fear? Specifically, what do you fear then? Go into it more. I fear that I don't understand it. For example, everything you just talked about is true with computing. The machines are getting faster. I mean, big time. But the software is getting slower, right? You still have spinning wheel even when you got 32, 64 gigs of RAM in your computer. How is this possible? How is any of this stuff slow at this point, given how much advancements we've gotten on the side? But most people don't care. They just say things like, I got too many tabs open. Don't know why the software bloat is increasing.

I don't know why everything I use wants to send my data to some random location. People don't think about these things and why they're the way they are. When we say it's free, what is the cost of it being free? Most people don't understand privacy and encryption until something bad happens, right? And so for me, while I was in tech, I can't just stand for it. I got to understand how these things work. So luckily for us, we could dive into the source code. We can read the white papers. We can sniff the network traffic to see what's going on. But when it comes to society and inflation and all of these things, I don't know what

in top is for that. I don't know what the source code is for that. It feels like proprietary software. So then you go into conspiracy theories, right? When you don't have facts, you start making up facts, right? And so for me, I'm asking myself, why does it work this way? So either A, no one's in control and we're just dealing with this stuff like bad production architecture, right? Things just go off,

alarm bells ring, and people try to put out the outage and we just keep fighting this fire forever. Or there is a design. And if there is a design, what is the system designed to do? And the only thing I can think of when I get to that conspiracy level, what is it designed to do? I always ask myself, how will you keep people working? How would you do it? Think about it. Back in the day, we probably had kings and queens, manifest destiny, I don't work, oh, you work, and you make sure that I don't work and all this stuff is mine. And eventually you look at that system and be like, I don't know about that one. Why are you not working and you own all the things? It just doesn't make sense. And you look around like we outnumber you. So like, what does the throne even mean? So how would you devise a better system? I need all of y'all to work, but I don't want to work. How would you do it in the most nonviolent

way possible? So to me, the most nonviolent way possible would be, hey, we got this money printer over here. Now, here's the deal. Everybody needs to work for money. Yep, you got to wake up and you got to go and here's what the salary ranges are. And if you work for 65 years, you can stop. All right, fair. I like that deal. So we're all going to work. That's exactly right. And there's ways where you can get more by investing. There's lotteries, there's gambling, there's many ways to take some shortcuts and it almost feels like Hunger Games, right? So everyone's motivated. I'm going to go to work, do a good job, invest, and then I can get out early.

So we're all on the hamster wheel and you're looking to make sure that everyone is on their hamster wheel. That's right. And as long as you're running, I'm not complaining. But if I look across the room and there's a person over there handing out the hamster wheels, but that's it.

Like, hey man, why are you not in the hamster wheel? He's like, I am am the banker I am the stock broker I trade off of your middleman activity it's like but so you're making money off of the fact that I'm working it's like yeah and it's totally fair because I am working and so when I think about it what happens I asked a question one time to someone, what happens if everyone was debt-free? And that person told me society will, or it will collapse. I was like, why would it collapse? Like, wouldn't it be good if people like were debt-free and had more disposable income to buy the things that they need, like Kelsey. And that's when I started having this opinion that things are not priced at what people can afford. Things are priced at what people can borrow. I'd rather

sell you a car for $100,000 than sell you a car that you can pay cash for $50,000. I'd rather just make another $50,000 and you just got to go get a loan to buy it. So we just keep the prices. I know it. And if you have trouble getting a loan, then you can buy here, pay here. And I'll just charge you 17%. And so if you do this long enough, you have the perfect recipe to make sure that everyone works forever. Like why would you stop? You can't stop working. And if you stop working, man, something about inflation, man, we don't know what happened, but all the houses are now up 40% than last year. So yeah, you're about to retire, bro, but you can't afford it anymore.

So back to work you go. And so to me, I keep thinking about like, why would you want a system like that? But I don't think we figured out a better way of having people do a bunch of work and a subset of people not doing any work. People still like that model. And I think what we've done is said, hey, what if you had a chance to not work and everyone else had to work? And that's what we call retirement. This is why I'm very respectful of the only reason why I get to not work is because everyone else has to work. And so my dollars still have meaning. So I'm conflicted, right? In many ways, I'm a hypocrite that I'm benefiting from the exact same system that I'm trying to wonder why it exists in its current form. What's the alternative for you to move to the mountains and not have any sort of interaction

with the system, go off the grid, stop paying taxes? Opting out of the system is to most, to everybody, but the most extreme is just infeasible, right? Impractical. It's not something that you're willing to do. There are people who are willing to completely do that. And they go out into the mountains and they live, you know, usually in communes or maybe sometimes on their own and they just opt out of everything. Otherwise you either you're, you are in the game. You didn't design the game.

I didn't design it. Adam, you didn't design are in the game. You didn't design the game. I didn't design it. Adam, you didn't design it, right? Here we are born into the game. We learn the rules of the game. And then what option do we have? I mean, you got to kind of play the game because everybody else is playing it. So it's a, I don't know if it's a catch-22,

but it's an unsolvable problem. I don't know. I think you're exactly right. So what I did was when I thought I understood the game, I said, you know what? I don't care about buying some of this stuff at all. The diamonds, the Mercedes, I don't care. But man, look at the other stuff. It's gotten cheaper too. Like in totality, a lot of this stuff, like if you have the premium version, like you can go first class seat or you can go coach. And the coach seat is actually pretty nice these days.

Like, you know, you still get to go to the same seat is actually pretty nice these days. You still get to go to the same place. You just don't get to sit up front. But I get to still go from Pacific Northwest to Japan nonstop. Maybe not first class, but I can still go nonstop. So there is progress. So the idea of being a minimalist, I don't necessarily buy the cheapest thing. I try to buy the most valuable thing. And I have to help myself redefine what value is. So now I'm just debt-free. And being debt-free in a world where everyone else is paying 7% interest rates is very powerful. And so there is ways to benefit within this system. So I'm not saying throw the whole thing away. You do have to understand it. And there are ways to navigate in a way that has a net positive for the people who really

understand. So yes, I don't get tricked into paying high interest rates for things. I don't get tricked into buying cheap things where I'm going to have to buy 50 of them. And so I do think that, but I'm also on a point like, how do you educate other people that want to navigate the system in that way that can maybe cause a little less stress? There are literally people who are depressed, again, because they can't buy a private jet. They're literally depressed.

It's like, oh, man, what are people going to think of me flying? What do they say? Flying commercial. Right. Right. When's the last time you flew commercial? It's been so long. Reminds me of American Psycho.

Have you guys seen American Psycho? This is a movie starring, who's the guy that played Batman most recently? Christian Bale. Yeah, Christian Bale. And he's a psychopath, but he's on Wall Street. And he's obsessed with the most material of things. And he's very successful.

He's made it, but deep down inside his heart, he hasn't made it. And there's one scene in particular where some colleague of his presents his new business card and Christian Bale's character is just envious as all get out of the beauty and the particular font, the type setting and the material. And they're all admiring this guy's new business card. And he had just gotten his own new business cards and they were amazing as well, but not as good as that guys. You know, it's like,

it's like being depressed because you can't have to fly commercial. I mean, he's there with guys comparing their business cards and he cannot find any sort of solace, you know, in his life. He ends up going out and, you know, murdering a bunch of people. So there's your storyline. I mean, he's a private, I mean, he's American psycho. He's, he's privately, he does,

he does murders and executions and he actually confesses it at some point. But the person across the desk from him thinks he says mergers and acquisitions. They're like, what are you into? He's like murders and executions. And she hears mergers and I can't say mergers and acquisitions. Anyways,

he's trying to confess. He can't. It's an interesting movie. But there is that thing in us where we want more, more, more. And a lot of the people who want to make more money off you, they want to sell you that $100,000 car versus the one you can actually afford. They go about setting up things so that you can go ahead and make that bad decision. And you can go ahead and... But you know, right? And you can go ahead and-

But you know what? The tech game is so similar though, because when we think about like blow and like, oh, we should be using this programming language because it's better, it's faster. And sometimes this stuff isn't necessary. So being like a responsible engineer, it's really understand like, what do we actually need? Let's do the most valuable thing. Let's understand how things work and not get into these traps of complexity. These things all have maintenance costs that are super high. And so

this is what I mean just by paying attention. So for me, the things that I applied in the software world, I would like to apply in just like normal society because it would be nice that people look at the things that they already have and try to find a way to be happy with those things. I'm not saying complacent, but if you have a washing machine, maybe you don't remember what it's like to go to the laundromat or maybe you've never been to a laundromat and had to wait and haul your clothes a couple of miles away from your house. But if you get a washing machine after going through that, you're extremely happy about a washing machine if you don't have to do that anymore. So man, how do you maybe get people to see that anymore. So man, how do you

maybe get people to see that again? So they can be just a tiny bit happier with their current situation as they strive for a bit more. Yeah. Well, it's tough because we talk about opting out. A lot of our cultural institutions are all about glorifying the excess, you know, so the private jet, the expensive car, the diamond rings, the Kubernetes. No, I don't know how you pull that back across the tech. Maybe it is Kubernetes. Where it's like, maybe you don't need that. Well, I got to have it because serious engineers, you know, they deploy on Kubernetes. And it's like, do they? Well, that's what the culture is telling me right now. And I got to keep up with the Joneses. So that does require, I think you said it, I think education, right? Like how do you get more people to understand the game and the rules of the game? And then also the things that are attracting them away from sound decision-making because there's so many shiny things

that we just chase after and then find ourselves in debt in many different ways. Well, I think this is why community plays such a big role in the tech game in general. It's because the stories we tell, the talks we give, the research we put out, when we share the numbers, when we write the blog posts, when we do the podcasts, this is the stuff we're supposed to be talking about. Why we use these things, why they exist, when to use them, when not to use them.

I think that's the part of the tech game that we talk a lot about the software, the code, the IDEs, the editors, the co-pilots. But honestly, it's that secondary layer, this human layer where we talk about these things and they become tools of the trade and the guidance just comes from the community behind them. So I think that's one thing we probably all take for granted. This is why I think people do, like Adam said earlier, why are the stories so powerful? Why do they work so well? Because that's the missing manual. Most of this stuff doesn't even ship with the manual anymore, but the conversations we're having, that's the missing

manual. And this is why people tune in so they can get all the stuff that isn't written down. Yeah. As long as I've been podcasting, it's kind of crazy because I recently had this, not so much epiphany, but it became more clear to me just how powerful this particular medium is because these are real for the most part. In this case, you're definitely not censored, but uncensorable conversations, authentic conversations at length. It's not, we're not, I suppose when we clip it, it's different, but in its long form, there is no agenda.

Like even before the show, Jared's like, hey, what are we talking to Kelsey about? I'm like, I don't know, it's Kelsey. We'll figure out something, I'm sure, right? It'll probably land somewhere. And we haven't even talked about what I told him we talked to you about, so that's okay. But the point is, I suppose, is that we sort of come to these conversations, we have this authentic platform that we

speak to literally a global audience of developers on a weekly basis for nearly 15 years. We've had some ebbs and some flows in terms of our frequency and consistency, but for the most part, this show, The Change, has been here almost institutionally for at least a decade strong or more, even though we're 15 years old. We've been strong for so long. And I think people come to this for the authentic conversations from a particular lens, a developer's lens. And developers aren't just simply software developers. We think about systems like you're talking about.

You are one of the lucky ones that were able to have an amazing career. You did well for yourself. You're amazing at storytelling. You leverage all those skillsets to be able to eject out and say, you know what? I'm done, I'm retiring. I got a different motive now.

And now you're examining not just software and you're not even writing code on your own. You're, you're desiring not to. Now you're examining the system we're all playing a role in. And that to me, you're in a lucky position, but not everybody gets to do that. But people listen to these shows because we have authentic, deep, real, unscripted conversations that for the most part can't really be censored. No one's behind the scenes here censoring this podcast. Aside from the obvious curse word, we try to remove those for- We self-censor. We believe. Right. There's some censoring, but not in the fact that I want to change what Kelsey said

to use it against him, right? That's not what we're doing here. And I think for the large part, 99% of podcasts are not having that motive. So I want to talk on this one really quickly because I think people forget nuance takes time. If you only have a three minute conversation with someone, you're probably going to get their best answer, their curated thing that they were ready for. But if you talk about that subject long enough, then I think you get the full depth of what they've ever thought about a particular subject. And then you get the nuance. And nuance ain't pretty.

The nuance ain't polished. The nuance ain't perfect. And the nuance usually isn't complete. But the censoring component, when I worked in big tech, it was a very weird thing that I don't think people understand the amount of media training, the amount of people that are paying attention to every word you say on social media, every podcast, and then have something to say about it is insane. I don't think people understand. And when I got to Google, I did media training, but for some reason, they let Kelsey be Kelsey. A lot of stuff people were

just reading secondhand. It's like, oh, it would have been nice if you'd have told me that you were going to be on the change log. It would have been nice if you told me you were going to tweet that. I'm like, I am not here to only say the things you want me to say. And also, the things you want me to say ain't even that great, to be honest. People aren't buying it. Enterprise, adoption, something digital transformation, something DevOps. Nobody want to hear that no more. Like at all. These are real people doing real work. They already have the way that they think about it.

And what they want to do is have a real person also think about it too, not regurgitate. So you're right about this, the censoring thing. Like when people come on these shows and you got your, can I see the questions first? And then they get media to go through and approve all the answers. And it's very robotic. If you're listening to this and you've done that,

nobody liked that. Nobody want to hear that. We don't let them do it, honestly. Like they ask us to give those questions and we're like, we dodge it. It's a conversation. We might give them topically,

but we're definitely not giving questions. Like that's just not how things work. If you're listening to this, you don't want the questions. You want to be honest. Like, look, I get it. Like when there's data that, you know, you want to give out factual information, just say, I don't know the exact numbers, but here's where we're going with this, right? Here's my observation, right? Nobody wants you to be repeating the stuff that five people on the Google Doc approved before you got on the show. That's not necessarily what people want to hear all the time.

Well, we had that. I've never been inside an organization that does that media training stuff. So I'm pretty ignorant of it all. We obviously can detect it as people who talk to people for a living like when they're on message when they're on brand and when they're just being themselves and we were at Microsoft build a couple weeks ago and did a lot of conversations with you know c-level guys and

all were interesting all were good from my perspective and obviously our listeners can judge individually what they think but there was one of the I won't name names because maybe that'd be a fun game for the listeners which one am I talking about But there was one of the, I won't name names because maybe that'd be a fun game for the listeners. Which one am I talking about here? There was one of them that was like, just clearly just being himself. And it's like, I don't know if he's just done the Kelsey thing. It's like, I'm just going to be myself and let the chips fall where they may. And the other ones were more like, I could tell that was a canned line. I know he was ready for this particular thing, like that kind of deal, you know, where they were trained, they were, they still were charismatic and interesting people, but they were just on brand. And you can just hear, I just actually listened back to it

because we just released it this week and I was out mowing. I'm like, I'm going to listen back. And like, you can just hear which of those conversations was just three guys talking and which one was a guy who was clearly media trained and then two people trying to talk to him and a big difference. I'm going to tell you as an executive at a company like that, it is one of the hardest things to unlearn that you've drunk too much Kool-Aid because some people don't even know because the identities merge. If you've been at a place for 15 years, sometimes the identities merge. You are your job and you don't know the difference anymore. You're the same.

And so when someone asks you a question, I don't speak two languages, but some people who speak two languages says this happens to them, where you want to answer and you're trying to find like, oh, are we English or Spanish right now? And you got to choose. And sometimes you may say it in English, but you're using like the Spanish way of thinking about our phrasing. Some people put together words in different ways based on the language and how it constructs its vocabulary, its nouns, its norms. And when it comes to text, some people do that as well. It's like,

what are your thoughts on cloud? Well, it's allowing people to transform. You're like, what the hell is that? Who says that? No one says that in the real world, right? In the real world, you're like, hey, you know what? Computing is hard. There's no way every company in the world is going to invest billions of dollars in underwater sea cables, regions all over the world. It's just not going to happen. So someone does that and we sell it to people. That's what we do. And here's the things you can do with it. Here's where it sucks and here's where it's great. Like that's too nuanced though. Because you said there's parts that suck.

And like, ah, no, no, no, no. Cloud is just great. So I got to imagine as you begin to examine the system, you begin to come up with theories. And some of those theories, because you're examining the system and you're questioning, because you've now got free time, you've now got reduced fear. And you see, you've got a superpower that not a lot of us have, which is financial freedom to an extent. You're not, you know,

there's probably something that's going to happen to, you know, ruin some ideas and plans you have. So you're not like, you're not a billionaire. I'm assuming like maybe a millionaire, right? Okay, he's shaking his head no to billionaire. It doesn't matter how much you got. But the point is that you've got the superpower that not many people have, which is lack of fear on financials. For now, there's still some fear there.

But you got enough of a safety net where you're like, whew, I can breathe. So now let me look at the system. I'm going to look at my inflation dashboard. I'm going to look at the way software works. I'm going to compare that to other things that I know of. And then you begin to develop theories. Some of those theories might cross into the conspiracy level.

How are you doing on that? Because sometimes when you get into the position you're in, you can become cynical. You start to over, to some degree, overanalyze, rightfully so, and begin to kind of get into that conspiracy realm. So one thing I had to realize is that I think a lot of times when people get money,

they believe that they're smarter than other people that don't have money. And so they think that their ideas should rise to the top. They're obviously right about something because their bank account reflects just how right they are. That's the mistake. To me, I know that I'm lucky

and a lot of things could have went in multiple directions and it doesn't end up with this particular number. And so one thing I've challenged myself for the last maybe 20 years, who am I and why do I believe what I believe? That's it. Sometimes I believe things because I didn't have time to research them. So I had to just take them at face value. They were taught to me. I didn't have time to challenge them, so I took them. So these days when I look at it, I try to humble myself and be like, Kelsey, do not fall into the lifestyle inflation. Do not over-index on showing people what you have. It is okay if people don't think you're in the top X percentage of anything. Remind myself that yes, you could buy it, but you

don't need to. What's caused you to want to do that kind of thing? And that helps me avoid the conspiracy. For example, if you say, I need more money, you will be really mad that you pay taxes because people are taking away the very thing you want. I don't mind paying for the bridges, the highways, the medical stuff. Do I like the waste? Absolutely not. I've seen waste in enterprise, so I'm not surprised that there's waste in government. So I don't over-index in that because I also know that people are hard to be very good 24 hours a day forever. It's not happening, folks. So I'm a pragmatist when it comes to that stuff. But the conspiracy theory is whenever one pops into my mind,

I say, Kelsey, it's time to do some research here. Before you start running your mouth, before you go on Twitter just saying random stuff. For example, when I wanted to understand inflation, I had to go read, what is it? The Monster of Jekyll Island, how the Federal Reserve is formed, buy some treasuries, actually buy treasuries

from Treasury Direct. Look at the interest rates. Look at the curve. Why do people start feeling a certain way when it goes up, start feeling a certain way when it goes down? Who buys them? Who doesn't? How big is the treasury market versus the stock market? Treasury market is dramatically bigger. Why is that? All right, so these are the type of things that I go into to just try to resolve the conspiracy components with actual facts. And then I just talk to people. Hey, explain to me how this works, please, because I don't know. And then people give me insight, give me something I don't, they close the knowledge gap. And then I'll test. So if I'm

really afraid of something, I'll test it. When the whole crypto movement was going, I was so afraid because I saw iteracracy. It doesn't matter if things are logically correct or not. It don't matter. If the world decides that we should all jump off our roofs with no helmets, then just people start doing it. It's like, oh, what are we doing? So when I saw the crypto craze and people were, it felt like people were really serious about adopting dog coins in replace of normal currency, at least with some transparency, with some levers, some minor checks and balances in place. I was really nervous about that. So you saw me ask a lot of questions in public like, yo, what the hell are we doing? Am I missing something?

Is this the future or y'all just trying to get rich? So that fear had me accelerate the understanding. I need it. And then people came for me. You don't know, you got to do this, you got to do that. But the dope thing about it, I didn't change my mind on what it was. I understood what it was, and I was no longer afraid. Y'all want to get rich. And I understand the mania because for some of y'all, it worked. It's just like when people line up to buy lotto tickets. Okay, that's just normal human nature. I can live with that. I'm no longer afraid.

Right? And then I move on. So that's just my method of dealing with the conspiracies, right? Because if you get into the conspiracies, then Tupac's still alive. Preach. Which we all wish was the case. Oh, man. Confirmation bias. You want it to be true. He might still be

alive. We just don't know. Lots of new music. He just dropped an album last week. I mean, what are you talking about? He's a ghostwriter for Drake. That's right. There you go. Well, then, I guess to be point blank, have you conjured or thought of or come up with any conspiracy theories

or believed in any as part of this investigation? And if not, you kind of gave away a little bit there, but how do you maintain a sane mind? Because it's hard to not be tainted by masses thinking one way and it's not. What I've realized is that I don't need the conspiracy theories. I don't need answers for everything. I'm just not that important in the grand scheme of the universe. I don't need them. I notice a lot of people use conspiracy theories as crutches to make themselves feel comfortable by having any answer. And I am actually okay without having answers to some things, right?

The thing that I just wanted to make sure of is that I constantly ask the question, who am I? And work towards that. And a lot of this stuff that we've made up as humans, the concept of video games, the concept of wealth, the concept of money, you can pick any of the isms. Those are things that people made up probably to feel comfortable or try to understand the world in place of having an actual answer. So for me, I don't need the conspiracy theories. And when I don't need them, I don't

entertain them very long. I just don't know. So then I ask myself, what things do I actually want to know the answer to? And then I just put my energy into those. So that's my thing on that. I don't need them. Because when you need them, you will pursue them. And what you will do then is since you need an answer so bad, the conspiracy theories become a temporary placeholder for where you just like, all right, that's my answer for that. And then you go around and you Alex Jones, all of a sudden, I'm not, I'm not going. Now we're censored. Now we're censored. Thank you. You said Alex Jones, now we're censored. Gosh. If you say it three times, he shows up. We're not going to censor

you. They're going to censor us. They're going to kick us off. Yes. I don't know. I'm okay with that. I don't need the conspiracy theories. I just want to make sure that I know how to think. I know how to slow down. Honestly, I just wish more people would slow down. We see the same thing in tech hype. People get behind this stuff because they don't have time to form an intelligent answer. And so we just ride with the last conference talk or we ride with the last set of viral tweets.

So I'm just about taking time, man. If you can find the patience. I was watching one of these. I told you I'm getting into this like tradesman stuff. And I found that there are like these electrical installer competitions. They literally give people these scenarios with these like half walls and they got to do this thing in an hour and they compete against each other. And the dude that's winning, he moving slow. He measures stuff on the wall. He writes stuff down.

He don't touch stuff more than once. Everybody else is picking it up, moving the ladder, picking it up, moving the ladder. Not him. He's like, all right, this is how it's supposed to go. He looks at the blueprints, makes his marks, does his cuts, puts stuff in place, looks at the blueprints one more time, hits the clock. And he's done 30% faster than everybody else. He's methodical. Everybody else is moving quick and going nowhere. That is the thing that I'm trying to hold on to. Like be methodical. And there's a team of people doing their own thing in their own lane. I don't need to swim in all the lanes. Slow down to go faster. I've been saying it for years over and over again, slow down to go faster, but you gotta be good. So that's the thing. Like it only works because he's actually good. He actually has skill. He's probably put in the work. He's probably done all

the right things. So he can go methodically. It's notice the people that don't quite have the skills dialed in. They have to compensate for the lack of skill by doing stuff seven times. Right. Right. Because they don't really know how to do it. You got to fix what you just did wrong. You do it wrong, you do it again or better. Right.

Do it right. Do it right. Do it wrong. Do it wrong. I like that. Okay, friends, it's time to monitor your crons. Simple monitoring for every application. That is what my friends over at Cronitor does for you. Performance insights and uptime monitoring for cron jobs, websites, APIs, status pages,

heartbeats, analytics checks, and so much more. And you can start for free today. Cronitor.io, check them out. Join 50,000 developers worldwide from Square, Cisco, Johnson & Johnson, Monday.com, Reddit, Monzo, and so many more. And guess what? I monitor my Cron jobs with Cronitor and you should too. And here's how easy it is to install and use Cronitor to start monitoring your crons. They have a Linux package, a Mac OS package, a Windows package that you can install. And the first thing you do is you run

Cronitor discover when you have this installed. It discovers all of your crons. And from there, your crons will be monitored inside of Chronitor's dashboard. You have a jobs tab. You can easily see execution time, all the events, the latest activity, the health status, the success range, all the details, when it should run. Everything is captured

in this dashboard and it's so easy to use. Okay, check them out at chronitor.io. Once again, chronitor.io. Once again, chronitor.io. I was going to ask you, have you begun to consider raising chickens yet? Nah. Nah.

First of all, I'm vegetarian. So that's kind of reason one. Okay. But I do know that I depend on society. So I think, Jerry, you talked about people that want to go off the grid. They're fooling themselves. We're on the same splinting rock. You rely on lots of things to happen by people you don't know, right?

You can go on your little island and then someone shoots a missile at your place. Now what? You're still connected. You can't dodge it. And so I'm not interested in necessarily dodging. I'm interested in contributing in a way that's helpful, right? So the people that do raise chickens, are they in a good mood? Because if they're in a good mood, maybe they don't start injecting the chickens with poison to make them grow faster so they can get more money.

Like we don't want that. So I think people that are more comfortable, that are feeling good, tend to do the right thing. That's all I'm trying to do. That's how I want to participate in this thing. Well, my line of thinking was to get to an understanding of who you were. And I think you asked this question to yourself even, like, who am I and why do I think and believe what I believe? And the reason I was asking about chickens is there's this theory that once you begin to raise chickens, there's a certain sort of sphere you live in

that then begins to unravel different things. You question life around you. Because you raise chickens, you start to think about different things, like not injecting with antibiotics or growth hormones. They're raising a kid camp. My daughter's 17. She's graduating high school, finished two years of college. She did early programs, going to UW in the fall. And when you have a kid, you realize the game ain't just about you. It's not about just you being safe. It's not just about you having everything taken care of. Now you're making decisions because there's a person that didn't ask to be here. You brought this person into this world and you are responsible

for them until they can be responsible for themselves. And yeah, it does change the calculus completely. You start looking about what world would they have to live in? I brought them in here and what world would they have to live in? And then how do I contribute to that? So the reason why you save a little extra is not so you can buy something, it's so that you may need to be able to invest in them so they can do something. My career has stopped. My professional W2 career has ended. Hers is about to start. I'm excited about that, being able to be that coach, be that person to do the co-review as she starts taking some of her CS courses or informatics courses when she gets to college. I'm thinking about what that internship will be. I'm thinking about, man, hopefully there's enough nice people that when she's a rookie and she joins the team,

that they don't make her feel like she wants to quit tech. Hopefully the whole industry has evolved to the point where she can land on a team that knows how to mentor and get her to go from a junior engineer to a senior engineer. That's the calculus that I'm currently doing, right? And then the generation that comes after that. So that's been calculus that I'm currently doing, right? And then the generation that comes after that. So that's been my thing for a little while, Adam. This is why when people DM me on Twitter, I'm like, just call me, man. I don't know who you are. You don't have to pull rank. You don't have to tell me what your background is. I don't need a link to your LinkedIn. You seem like a person that believes that I can help you. Do you know what a privilege that is? That someone believes that one of the most important things in their life, that I can help you? Do you know what a privilege that is? That someone believes

that one of the most important things in their life, that I can be of help? Come on, man. Look at that responsibility. Because a lot of times you give people advice and I've seen it boomerang back where you meet someone, I'm walking around San Francisco and the kid runs out and is like, hey, Mr. Hightower. I'm like, damn, I'm not that old. I'm only 43. And he's like, Mr. Hightower, you answered the phone for me years ago and you told me to do boom, boom, boom. And I did boom, boom. And now I'm in San Francisco. I'm in tech. I got a job and I was just eating. I saw you walk by and I had to run out and say, thank you. Wow. Like that, that to me is worth doing this stuff, right? Because I can afford to. I can afford for it

not to be about me. I can afford for it to be... The hardest thing to do, I think, as a person striving to get what they want to get is being happy for someone else. Everyone thinks it's easy. They're lying. It's not easy. If you work at a job next to your fellow colleague and you both got the same title, Linux System Administrator level two, they go in and get their performance view. You go in, they walk out Linux system administrator three, but you're not. How hard is that for you to do the math and be like, why did they get it and I didn't? It's hard. But when you have a child, something in the parental programming, when your child wins, you just smile for them.

Oh my gosh, yes. We winning, right? It's not a, when they lose, you sad for their loss, right? You find a way to be happy or empathetic about someone else's achievements. And man, I wish more people can do that with their peers as well. Speak to the other side of advising, because I've done some advising and I've given some good advice. Then I've given some advice where I was like, maybe the outcome wasn't what we hoped, you know, or I was wrong. And you are advising in big life decisions of businesses, right? Like

these are the big decisions and you have the great story of the boom, boom, boom, and then, you know, success. But surely there's been times where you've been wrong or off or didn't have enough information. That's a big responsibility too. How do you look at that? I don't know if people tell me enough when I'm wrong. They blame themselves. Well, I mean, I think they might just say, we're not going to listen to that one and they go in a different direction. Right. No return customer on that one, I guess. Yeah. Maybe you don't get a return, but also when you're an advisor, you know that you're one of many opinions. You're not the opinion. You're one of many. Sure. And I think that what people want from you is number one, they want the spectrum to be

expanded. I know what my people are telling me. I know what my customers are telling me. Let's check in on Kelsey to see if he can add something to this for us to consider. So let's say it's bad advice. So then you're on the other end of the spectrum of things we shouldn't do. It's bad advice. And as long as they got something on the other end, now they got something to compare and contrast to, and they can go why. So for example, I won't mention a company name, but they're going to do an acquisition.

I did the review and it's like, I wouldn't buy this company. But they bought them anyway, right? So was it bad advice? We'll find out in a couple of years, right? Whether that thing adds to the revenue pool or not, or the people are still there or not after a couple of years. But I think it was one of these things like,

if that's the worst that Kelsey can come up with, we're comfortable with that. We just need to hear so we can understand the full complete picture of the risk profile. So I think as an advisor, your goal isn't to necessarily be right or wrong because that's tricky.

Because it also depends on their ability to execute. Right. So everyone kind of knows that my job is to say, here's what I believe and here's why. And the math is clear. And if it's wrong, then look, great. Don't do that. But at least we have the spectrum. That's what people are paying for.

They're paying to expand the risk spectrum so they can make a good decision. Now apply that to your daughter. High risk. N of one. Some fear in there? No, no, no, no. For her, the safety net is big. I ain't have that kind of safety net at all. So her safety net is humongous. And the biggest fear I have for her is that I learned a lot by walking the tightrope with no safety net, right? When you know, if you don't save, you ain't paying the phone bill. You know, if you get fired, there's going to be problems. She won't have that per se, but I still want her to develop character in some other way, right? There has to be a way to stay diligent, to take that safety net, that foundation and go even further with it. I don't want her to have that

reset because I'm already afraid of the reset for myself. I'm not going to have her start over, right? What's the point of me doing all of this work, getting to this point only for her to start over? So I do want her to be able to continue and do something forward. But she said something dope that dissolved a lot of my fears. I said, hey, we're saving all this money. We're doing all these things. I want to make sure I leave something to you. She said, dad, I hope you live for a long time. She said, let's just do the math. Let's just say you die at like 90 or 100. That means I'm like 75, 80. Hopefully, I'd done some stuff on my own too to have a good life and I'm not going to be sitting around waiting for you to leave to leave me something and then it goes. I'm like, yeah,

you're right about that. That's not the game plan for her to sit idle until I'm out. The game plan is for her to do her own thing and maybe she doesn't need it. So then you just hit the gym, right? Try and make that 90, 100 happen. Hit the gym, the mental, relax, appreciate the time you have. I think, you know, yeah, I want to live as long as possible. But boy, do I want to live good every day that you get. Like, literally, I'm waking up and I'm like, man, the sun up, I'm still breathing. There's a lot of former billionaires that ain't here. You ain't trying to trade places with them right now. And so for me, that's just kind of where I'm at. I'm on the way to this KubeCon thing, the 10-year celebration. It's tomorrow in Mountain View. And they asked me to emcee it, help put together the schedule and the story arc. And it's

crazy because it's at the 10-year mark. And it's this moment of reflection. This thing has been around for 10 years. Everyone thought it was going to be like another open stack. People thought it was going to die due to complexity. But this thing is still here. And so are a lot of the people that are working on it. And I'm witnessing the new generation come in and replace all the original folks and then keeping this thing moving. So that's kind of dope to see this thing kind of come original folks and then keeping this thing moving. So, you know,

that's kind of dope to see this thing kind of come full circle and then keep moving, whether we're deeply involved or not. Yeah, it's wild, man. It's good that you're wise enough to ask yourself rather than get done, you know, pulled down from all the, the, the mental threats, I suppose that are out there in the world, the societal threats, that ways of thinking, so to speak, you know, that are out there in the world, the societal threats, ways of thinking, so to speak, that you've asked yourself, who am I and why do I believe what I believe? Now, I got to imagine, and maybe this isn't true, but my question really is,

how did you become so wise to ask yourself that question? Because I think that's identity. Most of us act irrationally, make bad choices because we don't know who we are. And because we don't know who we are, we don't know what we should do. And then you ask yourself one more question on top of that, which is why do I believe? What do I believe? Which is how does what I truly believe is true, true? And why do I believe it's true? What is my evidence for that truth?

So how did you become so wise? And who's helped you to become that way of thinking, that kind of brain framework, thinking framework, mindset? Honestly, the credit probably goes to everyone in your life, your mom, your parents, your friends, your colleagues, all that stuff. But I was like 22, 23 when I finally realized, and it was from observing just where things were going at that time.

So I'm 23 in 2002, 2003 maybe. And so I'm looking at the game and I got, I remember I bought this Suburban car note, right? No kids, no family, nothing. Just me, 5'9", and I have a seven-seater car. I ain't taking no kids to soccer practice. I don't even own a home, so we ain't going to Home Depot. Why do you have this car? And I had the car so you could see it and be like, damn, he drives a Suburban. That was why I had the car, literally, just being honest with myself. And then you look around and you're buying all these clothes. Again,

I don't really even care about these clothes, but boy, do other people do. And I say, you know what? I made a decision. I'm living by myself. I'm managing a comedian. I had this consultancy business, an entrepreneur. I'm like, we're doing this stuff. We're ripping and running all the time. But when you're managing comedians, you see the high and the low. You're seeing very famous comedians spend $40,000 at a club on alcohol and making money fly in the air. And then you watch MTV or some behind the music thing and they got no money later. How do you make all of that money and then be broke? And not just broke.

You owe the IRS a couple of millions. So you negative. How does this happen? So you watch it in real time. And I'm like, oh, this is how this happens. And I was like, you know what? I'm getting rid of the truck. And one of my buddies is like, what are you doing? What are you going to do? I was like, I'll just rent a car when I need one. He's like, Kelsey, how does this even work? I was like, I think I got it figured out. First step is, and I don't know all the things. So there's one step of, I'm living in the South and you eat steak, potatoes, macaroni and cheese,

all the sides. You eat the same diet all the time. There's no big deviation. When you grow up where you grew up, you eat what everyone else eats. I was like, ah, I'm going vegetarian. So what you going to eat? I don't know, man. I've never eaten Indian food. Let me try some of that. I've never messed with Thai food like that. Let me try that. Afghan food. Let me try that. Ethiopian food. Let me try that. So I was forced to expand because I couldn't go to the normal spots anymore because they ain't have nothing that fit that. So now you got this forcing function. Who am I and why am I that way? Right? So now I'm vegetarian because I chose to be. And now I'm eating all this other stuff. And now I'm paying attention to what they sell. Hey, do you have something that isn't these things? We don't.

So now I got to go somewhere new. Now look, for me, that was the number one way to expand my horizon for someone that's in their early 20s. Then I looked at the debt and said, why do I owe all these people money? It makes no sense. I'm out. And I went to the dealership and I was like, hey, I'm going to turn in my car. He's like, you can't do that. I was like, yes, you can. Voluntary repossession. You have to take these keys back. Worst case, you will sell the car and I will owe the difference. And I'm ready to pay that difference when it comes. So here's the keys. Do what you're going to do to the credit score.

I am off the debt treadmill forever. I'm out. And my friends are like, hey, I need a ride home because I ain't got no car now. And so I get a ride home and I didn't live too far from an enterprise car rental. And that's when they used to come pick you up. So I went there and I still have my consultancy, my computer shop thing. And so I would get the car and do service calls with it. How hard is this? And when you're done, and I was like, you know what? I need to be

charging trip charges when I go out and do these IT installs. So you build it all into the model. And then guess what? If you were savvy, you rent the car on Friday and they closed on Sunday. They had these discounts over the weekend. So when you're trying to go out and do dates and all this stuff, you get the car on Friday, turn it back on Monday and you don't lie. This is a rental car. I am debt-free. This is part of the whole debt-free thing. And anyone that can't get down with that, I can't afford to be with them anyway, because their lifestyle is not what I'm trying to be about. So then people see who you are. So now I'm debt-free, right? So that's like, hey, everything got to be debt-free. We're making decisions different over here. But then when you do get money, what do you do? Do you change up?

No, you stay the same. No, no, no, no. We stay the same. And then when I, I used to date my wife in high school, but we reconnected years later. And I remember two things, blood tests, credit report. I was like, oh, you got debt. No, no, no, no. We can't get married with no debt. Here's how it's going to work. I make calls, pay things off, but you got to pay me back because I'm not the boss of you. You got to know how I feel and you got to earn it back with a little help. Now you debt free. Right before we got married, we set the date for marriage right when the debt was going to be paid back. Now she's her own person. She has what I have, independence. She knows what it's like to be debt free and she knows what it's like to be in control. And I proposed with the cubic zirconia. Why am I paying 10 grand for a diamond? It makes no sense.

I can pay a dollar for cubic zirconia. We pocket the rest. We got married in Bahamas, not because it's fancy, because AirTran, I don't know if y'all remember AirTran, the airline. Yeah. $79 from Atlanta to the Bahamas each way, right? We got married in Lennon. If you stayed five nights at the hotel, you get married on the beach for free. One of the cheapest weddings ever, but the people who came was like, wow, you guys are doing a destination wedding? How rich are you? Not that rich. I'm like $1,300 into this thing, right? So to me, it's just one of these things that when I saw how much power came with that and how I felt with that, I felt like I was in control. So then everything

became an examination. What am I buying? Do I really need all of this stuff? So then I discovered words like minimalism. It's like, yeah, that's what I'm doing. So it gives me a word to communicate to the outside world what I'm doing. I don't need all of that stuff because I don't want to wash it all. I don't want to clean it all. I don't want to move it all every time I move. I'd rather stay this way. Zoom forward 20 years. My life has been like that. Why do I work here? What's my job role? How does this work? Do I even need that? And then it just becomes a formula for how you live. It's your principles. I read Ray Dalio's principles book, and most people just don't have any principles. That's the problem. It's not like I don't care if you're a Pittsburgh Steelers fan

or you're a Las Vegas Raiders fan. That doesn't matter to me. Why are you a fan? Do you really like football or you just like this team? The people that like football can watch any game and enjoy it. The people that only like their team, if their team don't win, they can't watch it anymore. They just turn the game off.

We're down by too many points. Turn the game off. I don't want to watch it anymore. My team's not in playoffs. I don't watch football anymore until my team is winning. That's the difference. That was enough for me, man. That's a good mic drop right there. I like that. That's a

lot of good thinking right there that I think that I'll go back and listen and probably listen to. We chapter our podcast, as you may know, Kelsey. We'll put this as a chapter and we'll just let people put on repeat because that was a lot of good advice there, especially at a young age. I mean, you've found a way to,

you're a contrarian probably to some degree, right? Like you don't have go with the sheep thinking. If everybody's doing this, you're sort of like, why is everyone doing like that? Like the car thing. Like, why do I have this suburban with seven seats when I'm one person? Why do I have this Suburban with seven seats when I'm one person? Why do I have this car note when I'm this?

You are a contrarian style thinker. I will say I'm not that insightful. I wasn't that insightful when I made those decisions. It's that I slept in my car before. And so when you're sleeping in your car and you stop to think, why am I sleeping in my car? And look, I didn't do anything. I wasn't on drugs. I wasn't a bad person.

I didn't get in trouble with the law. I just made a decision to try to do small business versus having an apartment. And the trade-off was you got to sleep in your car sometimes. And so you're sleeping in the car and he's like, what do I have to do not to sleep in this car? That was like the thought process. It wasn't, I don't know if I blamed anybody else. I didn't blame society. I didn't blame even my own decisions that kind of put me there because that was a choice to do that. I was like, what do you got to do not to do that? But you do got to think about it. That's it. That's the only calculus here is like, just who am I and why am I that way? Why do I believe what I believe? And if you constantly ask that question,

you start challenging stuff like, damn, I only believe that because I read it. Damn, maybe I should read a second source or ask someone, am I thinking about this correctly? Humble. It's really more about being humble and giving yourself room to change and not feeling bad about that. Kelsey, it's always a pleasure talking to you. We didn't even talk about the topic I share with Jared at all.

And I'm cool with that. 100% cool with that. I want to hear the topic you share with Jared. No, gosh, no, it would, it would,

it was, it's, it's left field. It's embarrassing compared to what we just talked about. Let's, let's do it for plus plus. How about that? We'll close this show.

We'll do it for plus plus. Okay. We'll do it for plus plus. We'll leave it. Hey, if you're not a plus plus subscriber, what's wrong with you? And I'm saying like,

it's, it is better. It's better. Change all the comm slash plus plus support us here. More of Kelseysey all that good stuff and uh kelsey thank you so much man really appreciate you awesome all right catch y'all all right so for the plus plus folks the the topic jared says hey what kind of ideas you got for kel? And I was like, I'm thinking, ooh, you almost got it. I almost accidentally let the plus plus bonus slide out there, but I didn't.

If you want to listen to this epic bonus with Kelsey, it's worth listening to. Go to changelog.com slash plus plus. It's better. It is better. 10 bucks a month, 100 bucks a year. No ads. Closer to that cool changelog medal.

Bonus content, of course. And a free sticker pack if you share your address. Too cool. Once again, changelog.com slash plus plus. So a massive thank you to our friends at Century. Changelog is the code to use to get 100 bucks off the team plan for three plus months totally free. Go to century.io. Use the code changelog.

That supports us. And when you use that, guess what they do? They think, man, changelog is so cool because they send us so many awesome customers. And that keeps us on the airwaves. Also, our awesome friends over at 1Password, developer.1password.com or 1password.com slash ChangeLogPod. So cool. 28 days of a free trial versus 14 days of a free trial of any plan you want to use. We love 1Password.

We use 1Password. I think you should use 1Password if you don't use 1Password. Okay, enough 1Password. Also, our friends over at Cronitor, cronitor.io. I monitor all my Cron jobs using Cronitor and I think you should too. Check them out. Cronitor.io. And last but not least to our awesome epic partners over at fly.io.

That is the home of changelog.com. That's where we deliver everything we do. We trust them. They're amazing. Love fly. Check them out. Fly.io. And big thank you as well to the beat freak in residence, Breakmaster Cylinder. Those beats, so fresh, so banging, so clean, so awesome. Breakmaster. Okay, that's it. The show's done.

We'll see you on Friday