The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - Saltiness about frostiness (Friends)

Episode Date: June 13, 2025

Justin Searls joins Jerod in Apple's WWDC wake for hot takes about frosty UIs. We go (almost) point-by-point through the keynote, dissecting and reacting along the way. Concentricity!

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Again, retool.com slash agents. Here we are post WWDC as we record about 24 hours ish since the end of the big keynote. I'm joined by Justin Searles, back again for another WWDC Hot Takes Show. What's up, Justin? Hello, Jared. Yeah, this is, you know, as an Apple.

Well, I guess I show my hand if I say I'm an Apple fan, but as a close follower of the, as a journalist at Justin.Sarls.co. This is a semi-annual, you know, this is one of the two polls of the calendar year, right? This is the software holiday and then in September we have the hardware holiday and then everything else that gets sprinkled throughout the different quarters is a bonus. So yeah, it's a big deal. There's a lot to talk about.

Yeah, and as a software guy, I've always thought this was the best, not this year's, but in particular, WWDC was my favorite event because it seemed to focus more on the things that I am interested in, I care about. I mean, Mac OS gets its own section, and you just don't get that very often. Of course when they're releasing new Macs or iMacs,

they'll do some Mac stuff, but so much of the last decade plus has been the iPhone, and then their pushes into new directions kind of stealing the show, and at Dubb Dubb, it seems like things that I like steal a show. This year the show Stealer, if there is one, or the headliner, is the new design, but they actually started with sort of addressing

Apple Intelligence. We're gonna take this in order, and you are a thorough person, so you started even with the intro here, the F1 teaser. Now, full disclosure, I did not watch this thing live I was doing change log news and so I got to watch it post facto yesterday afternoon and some this morning which means that I got to kind of skip around a little bit I didn't

have to sit through every last second so when things that happen like Craig Federighi jokes you know sometimes I'm here for him and other times I'm like, I got to get past this. So your takes on the F1 trailer, what's it called? Teaser? Yeah, well, you know, I will just say kind of funny, kind of cool. Obviously they're pushing a movie, but they're there. I think that Craig and Tim and the whole kind of cadre of, you know, white middle-aged dad, senior vice presidents at Apple have enough self-awareness that it can be endearingly

cringy. You know? They know how cringy it is. It's not accidental. And it's almost like, well, I guess like whenever stuff shifts domains, so like, you know, for example, that Apple has amazing hardware and software capabilities, that's their bread and butter and so to them, that's they're very serious about. But the fact that they also own one of the most successful now Hollywood studios on the

planet in terms of production budgets and visual effects and the cadre of contractors that work underneath them and stuff, that to me like that whole f1 teaser just feels like that's just them showing off. That's them having fun at work, right? Right. And so that's what I was thinking. This is Craig's way of driving one of these fast cars and expensing the entire thing Exactly. Yeah, so good for him and it just shows how much money they have to float on these kind of videos You know, like they just got so much money I'm sure I'm sure somebody some bean counter somewhere internally was like well And it just shows how much money they have to float on these kind of videos, you know? Like they just got so much money. I'm sure somebody, some bean counter somewhere internally was like, well, we've already built all of these models

and these assets for the film itself. We could reuse some of this. And I'm sure approximately none of it actually did get reused and it was probably a $20 million. Right. Intro, but we'll see. It looked expensive. I'll say that much.

But aside from that, I think we should get to the heart of the matter, which is we were wondering, was Apple Intelligence gonna go completely unmentioned? Of course, they've had this egg on their face, this failure to ship last year's features, this marketing push, even advertisements, like actual shot and shipped commercials

with features that never came to fruition and may never, I mean maybe eventually they will, but they had to like issue a mea culpa so to speak. I mean there's been a lot. And a lot of confidence lost in the ability of the company to deliver. And Siri is an embarrassment. And what would they do with Apple Intelligence?

It seems like they approached it, they didn't completely shy away from it. They didn't completely ignore it, but they obviously it's not the point this year. It's just kind of sprinkled in across all other things. What's your take on how they handled this, given all that we know about how precarious of a spot they're kind of in with their image being

like they're falling way behind? Yeah, I mean, you could say they had to clear the table, except that Apple has such a history of just memory-holing anything that isn't on brand. A lot of people, I think, sort of cynically expected that there'd be absolutely no mention of Apple Intelligence whatsoever or if there was it would just be like our customers love Genmoji so much and then they'd move right along. And Craig Frederighi if you didn't watch the keynote starts with this whole, well if you didn't watch this

keynote and you're choosing to listen to this instead with the same amount of time roughly, then that's a decision you can make. But I think it's a great decision. And I think all the sponsors appreciate me calling that out first thing. So Craig, Craig starts, he doesn't equivocate and he doesn't back away from it, but he also doesn't roll in the mud and ask for our forgiveness either. I think that internally they're probably really, really angry about the optics. And I'm sure that there's a lot of people in Apple marketing and PR who are just, you know, walking around and darting in the hallways and trying not to end up in the bathroom as any of these

guys at the same time for fear of just sort of like the hell that they've caused them over the last year. So there's, you know, I think that he had to clear the table, but then to move past it by talking about, you know, like, basically we're gonna show a lot of great stuff today. You're gonna see sprinkles of this Apple intelligence stuff, but just stay tuned for the big things. And that I think was probably, you know,

no one at Apple has the reality distortion effect the way that Steve Jobs did. But when you're talking to developers, I think the messenger you want for that is Craig Federighi because he's likable, he's like quote unquote one of us because he's very technical. And so it's hard to hate the guy. And when he gives the message,

I think that developers are more likely to at least nod along to it. And that's what they needed to do when they didn't, then they could move on to the other stuff. Right. Yeah, I tend to agree. I think that they didn't shy away from it. They didn't do, I mean, I feel like they just kind of

returned to form and act like none of that really happened. They were talking about this stuff every single keynote for the last five years. They've had machine learning, like we're doing it with machine learning and like they've been sprinkling in model-based features into their platforms for years and then they just felt last year I think,

I think because of Siri and how stagnant it has become, they felt the pressure of really going for the gusto. And they probably didn't have to do that, even though I was saying they should do it. We've all been saying you need to revamp Siri and give it actual AI features. And now they just kinda return to form to a certain extent. They acknowledge, it's kinda like

a reference acknowledged moment, but not like we're form to a certain extent. You know, they acknowledge, it's kind of like a reference acknowledged moment, but not like we're gonna make a big deal out of this, which is probably the best possible way. I totally agree. I think what happened if you look back on it last year, you know, we talk about, in recent history even, in COVID sometimes, entire year-long periods are like, man, that feels like a fever dream in hindsight.

Like I think the whole post-Chat GPT just maelstrom over Silicon Valley of all the companies that have gotten flat-footed, caught off guard by it. Apple was the least prepared of any of them for that. And so Apple under Tim Cook is an extremely, other than Tim's one line of, I don't care about the bloody ROI, they are extremely responsive to the care and feeding of their large institutional investors. And the fact that it had gotten into, they don't care that Jared's calling for them to have an AI story.

They care that like CNBC and the Wall Street Journal are calling for them to have an AI story. And so last year, I think that they just needed to put some lipstick on the pig and come up with really big, audacious, customer-facing competitors to what the vibe of chat GP and all these things would be. But if you look at last year's keynote and you look at this year's keynote

and you watch last year's State of the Union, which I accidentally did yesterday, I got 45 minutes into the State of the Union video. And then I was like, wait a second, this is last year's State of the Union. And then I started this one. I was like, okay. I thought you did it. Okay. I was on accident. Boy, that's that's depressing. But you look at the two and But you look at the two, and it's so obvious that last year they were sort of aping at what somebody told them AI was, and it was very much just like, what can we throw together in a hurry?

And this year, especially if you look at the State of the Union, the real story here, the thing that we're going to remember from this segment isn't like the optics. It's that Apple, for the first time, is letting us call through to their models on device and not in some baby dinky way where you've got three functions, like you've got a translate function and a summary function you can call them. It's like, nope, you're starting a real session.

And not only can you have the sort of back and forth chat dialogue in a sort of semi-stateful seeming way, but like you can take any struct in your whole app and annotate it as generable. And it can, you know, whereas in all these other environments, we're just suffering with JSON and untyped, you know, sort of like MCP tools. This is all strictly typed. And it's all of a piece where you can just imagine a world where a year from now they plug in

private cloud compute and then you can pay a premium to get more and more access as a developer to really harness these LLMs locally. It becomes a tremendous advantage for their platforms over other platforms because the story of the last seven years has been like, why would I use any of these iOS native APIs if the web is the better story? Well now, every web-based, every AI-based tool comes with an unbounded upper bound of cost to how the more power users, the whales, the people who get the most value out of my app, they could cost me hundreds or thousands of dollars a month in open AI API fees.

Whereas if this is happening on device, it's an all you can eat thing. Like suddenly me as a developer, especially as a solo guy, I'm like, I'm champion of the bit. I can't wait to start using this and only this as the way that I expose AI features to my users because it doesn't cost me anything.

I can give the app away for free and I don't have to worry about waking up to some huge bill. Yeah, very well said. I think it's ironic one more point on sirian Then we should move on to the design because the design really was The most talked about aspect of and cross-cutting thing in the entire keynote It's kind of ironic That all of the pressure around apple to do ai whatever that means

really Culminated around Siri because they had this chatbot already, this voice assistant sitting in the phone for a decade. And so much missed opportunity there. And it just so happens that like where all of this, you know, people like me and maybe the Wall Street Journal, I don't know, probably on the same level,

are calling for them to like revamp Siri with AI, and it just so happens to be what appears to be their most dysfunctional business unit in the entire organization, perhaps. I mean, they haven't done anything with Siri for a decade. It's been so dysfunctional, and all of a sudden, all this pressure to revamp that sucker. It was like probably other teams,

if it had been in a different area of the ecosystem could have perhaps pulled something off that impressed, but there's just no way the Siri team was going to get that done. And, and you know, okay. So in the world of VC backed tech, we've forgotten this, but most companies, most normal businesses in the world of VC-backed tech, we've forgotten this, but most companies, most normal businesses in the world, they get really good at whatever makes them money. That is the feedback loop. Do a thing, make some money, do the thing more, harder, better, wider, whatever, make a little bit more money.

And Apple is that kind of traditional old school, quote unquote, legacy business. And so when you look at Siri and ask, why was Siri dysfunctional, well, because it was a cost center. Like they sell zero marginal extra products because of Siri's existence, except for you could probably argue the HomePod, which they were still selling the first batch of when they discontinued it five years later. Like the services, you know, you could say like, well, remember like people forget this, but iPhone OS and the first several iPod touches

and I think the first iPad maybe, you wanted the software update in the fall, you had to pay 10 bucks because of the accounting shenanigans going on in terms of what was considered Gap accounting at the time. And of course Steve Jobs didn't like it, but the truth was they didn't have a way to even conceive of how are we gonna make all of our ongoing

software investments worth it to us as a company? And the answer to that was ultimately services revenue. That's why we get the five gigabytes of iCloud. And so yeah, sure, it's fun to complain about all of that sort of marginal services expense that we have to accrue if we want to have the family iCloud photos. But ultimately, like the reason that like,

that it keeps getting better is because we keep paying more money for it. Siri has none of that. And so that competitive instinct, that drive, that hunger doesn't have a reason to be there institutionally. And so then it wasn't. And so that's how stuff gets ignored or a blind eye turned to when the guy at the top

of the organization, Tim Cook, is how can I tighten this machine even harder to get like, you know, six days of inventory instead of seven? He's not thinking about how do I make, you know, Siri slightly more conversational so that people wanna be friends with it. Right. Yeah, that's just the way businesses work.

All right, let's hit on the big topic of the new design. It's called Liquid Ass. Sorry, liquid glass. Close. Easy joke. Too easy. Low hanging fruit. Impressive in one way, at least for me. I'm not excited about this.

I don't think it's gonna be bad. I think it'll be fine. I think it's kind of bad right now because they are pushing the envelope on everything and it's betas and stuff. And so people are finding the edge cases where it looks bad. But I think it'll be fine as they continue to refine it. It's an interesting idea.

It's not a super exciting idea to me. And it did, I totally thought of Windows Vista when they first started talking about it, which is, I mean, Windows Vista's design was kinda cool. The reason why we have a bad connotation to that, at least I do, is because the operating system was so bad. But there was some cool stuff going on in Aero, which there's Aero vibes here with Liquid Glass.

But what's impressive to me is how pervasive, they're rolling this thing out. They've rethought everything. I mean, they really have, like each of their platforms is getting Liquid Glass, it seems like, in 2026, or in version 26, as they say. And that's just a huge undertaking with how many platforms they have.

And now, I wonder how much of that code is shared and whatnot, but I mean, think about the app icons alone. It's just a huge undertaking. Anyways, Liquid Glass, this was the big announcement. It's kind of gotten mixed reviews online. Some people are into it, some people aren't. I'm kind of just waiting and seeing, I wanna try it. I think there's some cool ideas into it,

but it's not like, wow, I'm excited, I can't wait to use it. I'm also thinking like, it's gonna be pretty good by the time they ship it. What do you think? Well, the thing people forget about Vista is that the arrow scheme, the theme with the frosted glass and the transparency and translucency, the reason that people look back on that with disdain

as the butt of a joke is that that operating system snouted to tail, wrote all kinds of checks that it couldn't cache. Oh yeah, that's why I said the OS sucked. It was not a good OS. Your hardware didn't have a GPU in it necessarily, right? And so like I remember, I installed Vista excitedly on my Dell Inspiron, whatever the hell,

and it ran like absolute trash. And so I was just, you know, everyone was going back to XP cause it was faster. Yeah, totally. A big part of the story. And in my opinion, if you look at like, if you look at liquid glass, the reason it's boring, as somebody who likes boring stuff, right? Like the reason it's boring is like a big part of the story is, and they said it themselves in the keynote, we have the Apple Silicon, we have the hardware that allows us to get away with this. And this is what was left unsaid, I think, is that this is, in a sense, the purest manifestation of a lot of what the same stuff they were talking about with the iOS 7.

iOS 7 was also, if you go back to that announcement, it was about the layering, right? It's like we want to have this idea that you, yes, the design is flat because you have the control center swiped up on top of that. There's multiple dimensions that you're dealing with. There's like the Z index, the entire UI scheme. And that's still there, except now you have a story and some graphical pizzazz to turn that into from a concept that you could move around with some smoke and mirrors to make it look like a frosted glass control center. And now it's like, no, we're actually introducing this brand new element made out of unobtainium

that moves and has an emotional valence and kind of feels like a Pixar character or some. And that's, to me, as somebody who's really excited about consistency and about having that sort of conceptual through line all the way through to implementation, it looks phenomenal. And so like, for anyone who's looking at this thinking this is really boring or I don't really get it if you switched from the traditional Home button iPhone to the iPhone X era iPhone where you've got the face ID and the swipe bar at the bottom like for years that was running

Effectively a separate fork of iOS user interface right like the animations throughout the system are wildly different depending on which of the two of those systems that you're using, even if you have like the iPhone SE third generation with the home button. So what I really look forward to with this is that I think it's going to feel a lot like the final culmination of the promise that we had with iOS 7 and with the iPhone 10

and that, you know, in terms of just how things feel and look and touch, like the liquid glass thing, I think, is going to be the, you know, delivery of that promise. And then to your point about consistency, right now, like, again, like, you know, I think only about myself because I'm a selfish asshole. As a solo developer who wants to deliver an application to four of the five or six Apple platforms, there is no hope of that working if it's not all Swift UI, if the controls aren't the same in all of these environments. And as recently as yesterday, the story of using Swift UI on macOS was like, you're going

to get the settings app, basically. You're gonna get all of these controls that look totally out of place in the Mac. And we knew that wasn't sustainable. And so I don't think there's ever been a better day to start working on an Apple app if you plan on taking it multi-platform. Because now, look at the new iPad, right?

Windowing isn't a mode, windowing is just how it works. We'll get to that. But it looks, some of these screenshots. But like, it looks like, some of these screenshots side by side, it looks a lot like Mac OS, right? And you can sort of see how that whole UI scales up and down the stacks so much more gracefully. So sure, you know, like stuff's not readable.

There's cases where the glass really kind of obscures the content beneath it and Twitter X and, well, X more than the other ones because X is full of those kinds of people, but are making fun of this and calling out every single screenshot that looks ugly. But to be honest, you know, if I'm a designer, my job is to absolutely swing for the fences with beta one and see how much I can get away with in terms of the purity of the vision. And I'm going to go zero frosting on the glass and then back it off over the course of the purity of the vision. And I'm gonna go zero frosting on the glass

and then back it off over the course of the subsequent betas to dial it into, okay, so what are people actually able to accept? Yeah, because, and they clearly have done that, which is why I said I think it'll end up being fine. There are some, you know, on the subreddit programming horror, you know, they're having a field day because there's some screens

where it's like, especially a control center, if with the translucent glass, especially if you have a bright background like as your wallpaper, like a reddish background, and then you bring the control center down, I mean, it looks like a hot mess at the moment. And because like you said, no frosting, no, like they just haven't really dialed in

all the different settings to increase the contrast, make it more legible. The borders could use some use, it's hard to tell where the thing stops and starts. I think the animations will probably be made a little more subtle over time, but iOS 7 was the same way. It was like, whoa, they're really going for it. They've kind of like gone too far

and then like you see them progressively hone in on what is kind of the top notch settings, you know, the perfect settings. I mean, those IOS 7, we were like, what's the button? What can I click here? What's just yellow text that's a header and what's yellow text that's like a new note, you know? Yeah, exactly.

New note was just like a straight up text. There was no, like, give us an underline at least, like we get in the web, you know? Show us that we can click on it. And they figure that all out. And of course, you know, we saw all this coming, you know, if you looked at that recent invites app, if you looked at the sports scores app if you have a vision pro that the vision OS whole UI motif looks exactly like this and it fits right in I felt bad for the guy fella named Justin who was showing off the TV OS segment because he was like and check out this new liquid glass

User interface and TV OS and I'm squinting and I'm like TV OS already looks like this man I know I could tell what the difference was really. It was like, giant posters and then like, It's a hard sell. Yeah, glassy, you know, big, and it already is that, but okay. I think as a direction though, it's not really, like for me personally, it's not really a direction that I'm interested in UI going.

I'm kind of ready for, I think I've said this to you, I've said it to others, like I'm kind of ready for a move back to skewmorphism and like go back to like comfortable, real, like plush things, just for like, you know, as fashion swings back and forth, like let's go back in the other direction, I'm excited by the Airbnb direction with their new style and they're like really going for like bright and colorful

and real-ish but not like, you don't have to have the leather kind of design but just like icons that look very rich and real. And this is kind of more like slick and translucent and glassy and cold I would say to a certain extent. And so it's not the direction that I like to see them go but you know, I'm here for it.

We'll see how it goes. I wonder too, how, whether or not the advances in silicon, the fact that like GPUs are so powerful now that you can get away with an operating system layer like this and we're not talking about how it's going to slow all of our apps down, which was the story whenever it was. Yeah, which I mean, originally, we're not afraid of originally or with this. We're not afraid of that, are we? I'm not afraid of it. No.

And so when you look at this, whether it was Airbnb is new kind of, you know, they're taking physicality in a totally different direction. Yeah. This liquid glass thing felt inevitable to me because it is Apple's brand made manifest, right? Like their buildings are just curved glass, you know? Right. Like they, their ideal iPhone is very obviously

a glass puck and and my dream of it and like Ever since I had this thought I haven't been able to shake it that like, you know The iPhone 20th anniversary or whenever they're able to do the all glass iPhone is going to be not just using this liquid glass But like basically a translucent device just like Vision OS, right? Like you're gonna look through it and you're gonna see the thing behind you and instead of having an AR mode, you'll just hold up your magic rectangle to the universe

and it'll annotate the world around you, right? Like I think that's what they're going for. And so Apple as a company constitutionally, that's like who they are really, like it's like what they encode into their buildings and everything about how they talk. They're just that austere minimalist company that wanna decorate our universe with stuff.

I don't think they can go in another direction, but somebody like Airbnb has the same lack of constraints. They can go in their own. So we'll see, you know, honestly, my favorite thing about liquid glass is that I don't think that Google and other platforms are going to chase it. We might actually start to see a little bit more daylight between this and the other platforms in terms of them each establishing their own brand identity. So if anything, now it's the pressure should be on Google, Samsung, Microsoft to come up with their own design instead of just copying whatever Apple's doing.

Hard to believe this is the same company that shipped that Game Center design with the green felt poker table thing going on. I mean, that's just wild. I mean, cause you're right. And this is not a surprising direction. Of course, like you said, we've seen it coming. Vision OS is clearly the inspiration

for this move across all the platforms and you've been living that life as a Vision OS beta tester for a while now. So let's get into the specific platforms. iOS took the majority of it and that's because it's their biggest, most important platform they have, of course. Gosh, I don't know if we can cover all this, Justin.

I don't think we can. We might have to hit the high notes. Yeah, there's just too much. And I definitely wanna get into the Mac OS stuff and the developer stuff. I know you wanna talk Vision OS. I will listen to you talk about it. And TV OS is important to both of us, I guess,

because we are TV OS users. So I wanna hit each platform, I just know we can't spend all day on iOS. So take me vertically through it and talk about the stuff that you think's interesting and I'll just interject as we go. Well, you know, anyone who listens to the Change a Log and has heard me on any of your shows before

knows how hard it is to clip anything I say into one of your 60 second reels. So feel free to raise a hand. We do a three hour solo pod. It's true, yes. If you want my full unabridged takes, you can check out Breaking Change, a podcast production where it's just me and you

and all afternoon. You could probably do this exact same podcast with your same outline without me there. I'll take the same notes and I'll just be like. It'll be longer but you know more cohesive. So you know iOS we start talking, let's see. I think the lock screen is interesting because the biggest change that jumped out at me

with the lock screen was the usage of spatial scenes I think is the term that they termed it. So that if you've got a photo and you've got that depth effect now, they're going to use machine learning to kind of spatialize the photo the same way that you've been able to on a onesie twosie basis in vision OS and the photos app. You can go and take any photo and spatialize it as if you took it in that spatial photo mode with an iPhone. And it's a very cool effect. It's very believable. And the thing that you can do on an iPhone that And it's a very cool effect. It's very believable. And the thing that you can do on an iPhone that, well, you can do it on an iPhone if

you're Apple, but you can't do it if you're a web developer because they took away the gyro APIs, if you recall. Like we used to be able to rotate the phone and then get that sort of special highlighting look. And I remember they took it away because the nasty meta and the Google and the ad tracker people were using it to identify who was who. And they just couldn't figure out a way to keep that API working. So yeah, as a result though, now the entirety of Liquid Glass appears to be this way, but

they specifically called it out during the lock screen demo of you're rotating your phone and you're actually seeing behind the depth effect of whatever it is you're looking at, like picture your spouse. It was weird how Craig's talking about all these pictures of our loved ones on our lock screens and the two examples are a dog and a kangaroo. I'm like, do you just live in the office, dude? Maybe he's a private person. Do you have anything to say about the lock screen? I think it was pretty one and done.

No, I think it was one. I guess in the home screen, you can make all your icons clear. You're gonna make your icons clear. Yeah, and they had themable, they had themes last year, and now it's like, transparent is a theme, of course you can also change to like orange tinted everything and all that kind of stuff. Custom tint.

Right, and of course clear, which I would never do, but I'm sure some people are gonna do it and enjoy it. Are you gonna go translucent across the board? I don't know, there's been a recent trend, right, to kind of go back to that sort of Game Boy pocket with the sort of translucent hardware design where you can sort of see the battery underneath it and stuff.

I'll try it for a day. Honestly, I don't use my home screen at all anymore. I'm just always launching via Spotlight pretty much anything that I need. Yeah, I have, how many home screens do you have? Like, have you swiped? Do I have how many home screens do you have like have you swiped? Do you have a lot or you have one? I have five and all of them were accidentally created by accidentally dragging something out of the app library other than the first one.

And the first one is just my photos widget because I want to see the daily photos. Otherwise I would never look at my photos and you know that I find that delightful and like map and I don't know my ring a lot like the stuff that I absolutely need to be able to hit in a touch if anyone waiting for them to kind of rethink how to make the home screen useful this isn't the year for you no no and the the squircles are the same shape as as they always were despite despite what the rumors were saying. Yeah, my use is very similar. I think I only have two though,

but I have like photos widget, because yeah, when it pulls up things out of your past, like that's a delightful moment in your day, and then like weather just for a glanceable thing, and then calendar, and then everything else. I just swipe down and start typing basically, to just launch, because I'm sure there's just thousands of things

down in there, and I can just summon them by swiping down. So, you know, gone are the days where you swipe sideways, sideways, sideways, looking for that one particular icon. You know, the next thing up here is camera. And we talk about swiping. They redesigned the camera app. The camera app looks nice. There's just two tabs now for video and photo,

which is nice because currently it's like, you know, you're basically forcing your users to remember does cinematic mean video does panoramic, can I do a panoramic video? Nope, nope, that's the photo thing. He said, quote, all your controls are just a tap away. But the thing is, then he shows a swiping gesture of some mystery meat navigation that you have to swipe left to right to change the type of thing you're looking at. And then another swipe up for the controls themselves,

like your F-stop and whatnot. And so what they've done is they've made it look really pretty, but I think that they've really just hidden a lot of the complexity. They hide all the buttons. Because most people don't need it. Like the camera team's first and foremost job is to make it so that you can't take a bad photo.

You just point it at a thing, give it a thing, their job is to figure it out. And you know, I liked how you put it in your newsletter where it's like, you know, the skill needed to take a great photo is asymptotically approaching zero. I think that's true. And that wasn't true when this previous iteration of the camera app was being developed.

So I'm kind of curious your take on the camera app. I think simplified as much as you can. You know, the nerds are gonna nerd out and they'll find, they'll tap and swipe and so many people are now camera aficionados as it become like the way that you share and the way that you do everything, influence, so to speak, that if you can just simplify the UI

and just make it dead simple for those of us who are just trying to take a picture and then like you said, do all of the fancy software stuff in order to make sure that my picture looks good. I don't want to care about f-stop or shutter speed or is the flash on auto or not. I just want it to know what to do in order to optimize this picture.

And for those of us who are like, yeah, that picture was suboptimal, I'm going to go ahead and like do the thing. Yeah, they'll, they'll swipe and they'll figure it out. So I think it's a good move. And I think it's funny that you say it's a, it's a tap away when it's not a tap away, but you know, words are hard. Well in it, you know, we talk about Sherlocking in these, in these keynotes all the time. It's like, oh, this app just got Sherlocked by Apple's new feature. Well, when Apple hides stuff

or takes away complexity for the sake of, like you said, streamlining, make it simple for the masses, you know, I think this was a great day for Halide. Like, if you want that extra control, you can still get it, and there's an app for that. And that I think is actually probably appropriate and probably a good thing overall just based on what you're saying. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I agree with that. Make room for the apps to do their special things

for the power users. Like, cover the 80% case the best you can and just don't worry so much about the 20% case because you have an ecosystem for that. And there's developers who can make good livings by providing that software, and then eventually Apple decides they're gonna take it away and do it themselves, and then they get mad.

But that's the circle of life. There's a curve here, right? It's like you're the company Halide that starts doing stuff that Apple can't do yet in their camera app, so you're at the leading edge, then Apple figures out how to do it, and they do it. And then they realize that's too much and then they pull it back. And now you're the only app where people can do it. Right. I think, I think you get Sherlocked when you come up with a great idea first, and then Apple recognizes

it's a great idea. You know what, what, what Apple I think more recently is aware of much more, especially on the, on the iPhone and iPad is like they're doing this for the masses. Like, you know, you work in Apple design, your mom and your grandma are going to call you when they get mad at you. And in fact, the next thing that they talk about is the Photos app. And we didn't get an apology with Apple intelligence. Which we deserved one. The closest we got to an apology in the entire keynote is this is this line from Craig. Many of you missed using tabs in the photos app.

Really Craig what happened to my tabs? Where did those? Oh right last year you announced that you're taking my tabs away. It sounds like you like some they just mysteriously disappeared and they've brought them back you know it's like the passive voice comes back again. Exactly yeah somehow those tabs disappeared. So there's now two tabs. There's library and collection.

Honestly, I'll be happy with this new photos app. If I take a photo and then I launch the photos app and then my photo is in the photos app, that would be wonderful. Cause right now I have to wait 15 seconds for cloud things to happen or yes. Or image signal processing to finish or you know deep fusion to occur I'm not sure to get all the threads in the sweater you know perfectly coifed but

that's a recognition I think that people were upset about the photos app otherwise there's not a lot new there other than this new spatial photos thing. And based on my experience with Vision OS, it is really cool, but like if you have to tap, I want to spatialize each and every single individual photo and then wait for five seconds for the computer to do its thing. No one's going to really do that. It would need to be a sort of modal interface where you just, I'm in spatial mode now and I wanna see artificial 3D video game looking versions of all my family who've long since passed. Probably like a lot of these apps, it's a light year for new features, but a lot of little paper cuts have been touched up throughout.

Well, I think that will be much appreciated with how dramatically they changed photos last year. And I mean, it actually prompted, I don't know what you call the people who don't upgrade, like Holderbackers, I don't know, Luddites. Like it prompted people like, yeah, I'm not gonna upgrade, I'm gonna wait. Which that's not what Apple wants. Like they want everybody running the latest.

They do not wanna have a subculture of people running, you know, a previous version of iOS and somehow dodging updates as long as they can just because they hate it. And the photos thing in particular became like a TikTok trend, didn't it? Like people were wearing their stuff. Well I think it even made like late night TV. I can't remember if it was like Colbert

or the British fellow whose name is a lid in me right now last week tonight, John Oliver. Somebody did like a whole segment on it. Like how mad they were about it, just sucking. And so like that's when it starts to like permeate everybody is when it's on late night TV. And so maybe that's why I got the shout out from Craig. What's up nerds?

I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Fly. You know we love Fly. So Kurt, I want to talk to you about the magic of the cloud. You have thoughts on this, right? Right. I think it's valuable to understand the magic behind a cloud because you can build better features for users basically if you'd understand that.

You can do a lot of stuff, particularly now that people are doing LLM stuff, but you can do a lot of stuff if you get that and can be creative with it. So when you say clouds aren't magic because you're building a public cloud for developers of stuff if you get that and can be creative with it. So when you say clouds aren't magic because you're building a public cloud for developers and you go on to explain exactly how it works, what does that mean to you? In some ways it means these all came from somewhere. Like there was a

simpler time before clouds where we'd get a server at Rack Shack and we'd SSH or Telnet into it even and put files somewhere and run the web servers ourselves to serve them up to users. Clouds are not magic on top of that. They're just more complicated ways of doing those same things in a way that meets the needs of a lot of people instead of just one. One of the things I think that people miss out on, and a lot of this is actually because AWS and GCP have created such big black box abstractions. Like Lambda's really black boxy. You can't like pick apart Lambda and see how it works from the outside.

You have to sort of just use what's there. But the reality is like Lambda's not all that complicated. It's just a modern way to launch little VMs and serve some requests from them and let them like kind of pause and resume and free up like physical compute time. The interesting thing about understanding how clouds work is it lets you build features for your users

you never would have expected. And our canonical version of this for us is that when we looked at how we wanted to isolate user code, we decided to just expose this machines concept, which is a much lower level abstraction of Lambda that you could use to build Lambda on top of. And what machines are is just these VMs that are designed to start really fast,

are designed to stop and then restart really fast, are designed to suspend sort of like your laptop does when it closes and resume really fast when you tell them to. And what we found is that giving people those parameters actually, there's like new apps being built that couldn't be built before, specifically because we went so low level and made such a minimal abstraction on top of generally like Linux kernel features. A lot of our platform is actually just exposing

a nice UX around Linux kernel features, which I think is kind of interesting. But like you still need to understand what they're doing to get the most use out of them. Very cool. Okay, so experience the magic of Fly and get told the secrets of Fly because that's what they want you to do.

They want to share all the secrets behind the magic of the Fly Cloud, the Cloud for productive developers, the Cloud for developers who ship. Learn more and get started for free at fly.io. Again, fly.io. I'll skip ahead a little bit just to say that like, you know, the phone app got a huge redesign for the first time since, you know, the last time the phone app was designed at all was

back when the iPhone couldn't make phone calls because it was on AT&T's like edge network and like, you know, it was useless for that purpose as well. Right. But like the phone app really hasn't changed at all since 2007, 2008, other than to handle like the larger screen real estate. This new phone app, this unified call history list and just one nice little tidy homepage is opt in. Apple is not forcing change on people in that way anymore.

And honestly, I think that there's probably a world where a lot of the people who got really angry about the Photos app would have been totally fine with it if it had been an opt-in thing. They might have even discovered it and then suddenly thought that it was kinda cool and different. But as soon as you move somebody's cheese

and tell them like, nope, this is just how it is now, then you invite the backlash. As a total aside to the phone app, where it's related but it's not in the feature list, there's a new generation and like, you know, my kids are one of them now. My 15 year old son just got a phone number for a while. He's had the phone but it's just been Wi-Fi only.

He's got a phone number. They have no idea what it was like to make a phone call on the plain old telephone system, like POTS, landlines, they've only ever used these things. I just am thinking this because I had the first phone call with it and I'm like, he has no idea how to even use a phone. But aside from that, like, they don't know how crystal clear and like latency free the phone system was.

Like when you just like called somebody and like, you know, the cord was going into the wall, compared to the way these things work now Like it was like you're in the room with them It was so good at least in the 90s when I was using them sure started off bad and we've kind of just lost that I mean, it's never coming back. I don't think there's just too many Environmental factors for them to care about that. I don't know What you think your thoughts are on that? Why it is that the quality of the sound and the latency of the voice on the other end

of just, we're talking about the phone app, is just so bad and continues to be bad. Ever since they, it was AT&T and you couldn't even get the connection through for a while there, but it's just not good. I know they've released features over the years saying it's gonna sound better now, and I haven't had a phone call on my iPhone

that sounded like quick and vibrant and full fidelity ever. And I just think it's gone. Well, I think because whenever the carrier is involved in the transmission, it means that there is somewhere, there is your 1990s cordless phone, their RCA phone that you got for $20 at Radio Shack is involved somewhere in some switch.

Yeah, some nerd listening to this is excited because that switch is running Erlang. But that is the reality, right? Like, even if you're using, you know, your Wi-Fi calling or whatever, it's like your wife, your end isn't the problem. You're like, your end isn't the reason this sounds like trash. It sounds like trash because it's not end to end. And so that's why whenever possible, I just use FaceTime Audio and then I'm always amazed

at how good it sounds by comparison. Yeah, yeah, it does sound a lot better. It's just like a thing where, I guess FaceTime Audio feels like a step or like a, I'm sure there's a toggle which like always uses if I'm calling an iPhone, but it just seems like it's not being used most of the time in my life.

And so I'm never having good quality. Like I'm just mad when someone's talking to me on the phone, regardless of what they're saying, you know? Like content aside, I'm still angry because it's so hard to hear them and like have a high fidelity conversation. Anyways, just ranting now. Let's move on.

Well, for what it's worth, it may be that that step is starting to be obfuscated a little bit because they also announced a new home screen for the FaceTime app. And the thing about the phone screen home screen, bleh, the phone screen unified timeline that they showed is that the phone app also shows your FaceTime calls now, just like FaceTime app on like your Mac or whatever would also show your normal phone calls because there hadn't been a phone app, although there's a phone

app now on the Mac and the iPad. So the fact that these are separate apps for basically, you know, FaceTime is the app that you use if you want it to not sound like a bucket of assholes. The phone app is what you use if you want it to have to engage with the world outside of our carefully tended garden of an ecosystem. It really does feel like this should be... You're basically creating two entirely different user interfaces that people have to learn when the only difference is the protocol underneath and people shouldn't have to care about what protocol they're using.

They don't understand it. They don't, like your son doesn't have any clue. Right. Yeah, it'd be like if they had like an SMS app and then like a messages app and you'd have to pick the one that you wanted. When they unified them, you know, they made the green bubble, blue bubble, whatever. And maybe that's enough to let you know, hey, this is a FaceTime call, this is a regular call. But we shouldn't have to think about these things.

It should just sound better and be better when it can be. And hopefully that happens eventually. Well, any good feelings that we had about the opt-in nature of this new phone app? I'll opt into it because I'm just a sicko and I opt into all the things. Like you had to hold me back from putting developer beta one on my phone and I'm just a ham right now.

I have a rule that I try to keep with myself is I don't install betas while I'm overseas because I need my devices to keep working. So not yet, but the minute that I get back to America, I'm just turning over all of my everything. Whatever, all my iClouds are going to be completely, they're going to be corrupted as hell to all of the bugs of the, and that's the thing I don't understand is like, you know, when you install these betas, the, your iCloud, if you're logged into your iCloud account and you're running this Beta software and it is super buggy, like all you're just doing is inviting a whole

bunch of cockroaches to infest all of the key value stores across all these applications. Right. And you're doing that. You're going to do it. And I'm, well, you know, why stop now? When you get back. Yeah, exactly. But, but, but that to say like, you know, I don't think that the changes that we saw on Safari are opt-in. I think that this is a pretty significant change to how Safari looks and feels and behaves. And I don't know if it's once people start using it, if it's going to invite the same kind of backlash that like the compact tabs interface did a few years ago.

What were your thoughts as you looked at the new liquidy, glassy Safari? Just like a trepidation mostly. I mean, it's like my favorite app, Safari. And it's my most used app, probably, on my phone. Maybe next to messages. I think Safari and messages are probably my phone, maybe next to messages. I think Safari messages are probably my two, if I was gonna check my screen time settings.

Well, maybe YouTube, I don't know. I don't have to go through the whole list of things I use, but it's just one of my favorite apps. And you know, I don't know. I'm gonna withhold judgment, but I have a little bit of trepidation, you know. I feel like they're moving my cheese, but maybe I like the new cheese better.

You know, I'm open to change. I'm not resistant, I'm just a little trepidatious. What do you think? The thing that they always say about these changes to Safari, whenever they try to make the controls hidden or the controls smaller, is that you have more room for your content. And I think as nerds, we react to that by saying, no, you're saying is we have less room for our buttons and our controls and our functions and our utilities. And so I think that's one reason why there tends to be resistance. But the truth is, if I'm looking at a web page, I don't want to see the buttons.

I know that there's a thing that I can tap to go and do another thing. As long as I know how to do that, I'd rather just see another paragraph or sentence worth of text. And as you're scrolling, the new Safari does the thing that a lot of websites do where they will minimize or hide or elide some of the menu bar in the website and stuff to kind of make content pop out. And because now all of Apple's device, when iOS 7 came out, the screen was a rectangle, right? And with iPhone 10, now the edges of your device are round wrecks.

And even I'm looking at my MacBook Pro right now, and all four edges of the operating system are round-rex. They use the term concentricity, I think, multiple times to describe that we're going to have round-rex within round-rex now. And Safari is the same way, where now if you use CSS, if you're a web developer and you're familiar with those safe inset zone variables to make sure that your content doesn't get too close to any of the edges, if you're not using those,

I suspect that the footers and the headers are gonna look real goofy with just how much more space to roam there is because you're gonna have controls that are kind of floating over stuff now. So it'll be really interesting to see how those variables function because it's just so much more space than it used to be. That's probably the only thing that's gonna

throw people off, but we'll have to see. And then again, if they get the liquid glass dialed in correctly so that it's not so, and it's kind kind of I think muddy would be what I would say. It's unclear to me Depending on what's behind those specifically like the address bar and the back button and the dot dot dot Those three buttons that are kind of in the lower third now What's going on behind there? You know like it just kind of obfuscates things and it's not always clear where it stops and starts and so it's just a little bit like it needs to be polished still,

but again that's why I'm, I am withholding judgment and I do want more space for the websites, so you know I'm not against it in principle, we'll just see if I'm against it in practice and then if I am, you am, what choice do I have? It's just the way it goes. I just gotta launch. You're gonna move to Europe.

And then you're gonna. And I'll have browser choice. True browser choice in Europe, yes. I don't need to just get away from this UI. I need a whole new rendering engine just to kind of clear the taste in my mouth from this crap. They're gonna back away. They're going to, they're going to frost it to the extent needed.

I know, I know, I know. That's why I'm at a little bit of trepidation, you know, what if they don't frost it to the, my extent needed. Safari is still going to Safari and everyone's going to use it a bunch. And if it's bad enough, they'll fix it. I think the, the, the kind of sleeper hit of the, I suppose it was the iOS section still that they were doing this, was CarPlay.

Like there's a lot of CarPlay stuff in this. It was a big year for CarPlay. There was a lot, I'm a big CarPlay user. Are you a CarPlay guy? Absolutely, now does this, I'm a CarPlay guy, but I'm not really sure how it works, because I haven't paid close attention. Does it run off the phone,

meaning like it ships with the new iOS, or does my car have to have something to do with it? How does it actually work? Oh, I got one question for you. Do you drive an Aston Martin? No, I don't. Oh, in that case, then it absolutely runs on your phone. All right.

Do you run a, if you drive a brand new Aston Martin, there is some Apple code somewhere, that's the CarPlay Ultra, some stuff has to run. And they're the only ones that have opted, they said there's a lot more cars coming, but they didn't say, they didn't list any brand partnerships or anything. The only mainstream makes, to my knowledge,

that have announced CarPlay Ultra support, other than, I think Porsche might be the other one that had previously announced this, is Hyundai, Kia, Genesis, like the Korean trio. Those makes are all supposedly coming to CarPlay Ultra. But first of all, just to close the loop on CarPlay Ultra, they just showed this off like two weeks ago. They had the Top Gear guy do the demo of the CarPlay Ultra and the Aston Martin. And they did all that with a UI that they knew they were gonna throw away two weeks later. Yeah.

Like I'm not sure that UI is actually shipping to a single car. Like that's commitment to the bit right there is that they knew that they had to get that out the door and they're like, all right, well this is gonna be totally rewritten. Well it took them two years to get a car, didn't it? I mean, they first announced it a couple years ago.

Yeah, and it was supposed to be the end of 23 and then the end of 24, and here we are halfway through 25 and they nailed it. So look forward to that Apple intelligence series sometime in mid 28. There you go. Well, for the regular CarPlay users like myself, I just update my phone and my car updates, sounds like,

and that's amazing because I can't really trust the GM to do anything time sensitive with regard to software updates unless they wanna send me into a dealer, which is one of their favorite plans. Like, you need a firmware update, go into the dealer. I'm like, I am not going into my dealer unless this CarPlay feature is very compelling,

in which case I'll be mad about it. So you can have a car mechanic who doesn't really understand how software works or. Yeah, exactly. What USB is. Yeah, so to answer your question for anyone who's confused about CarPlay in their lives, your phone runs it and then when you plug in

or when you're wirelessly connected, it's literally like a sidecar display It's like a second screen. And so it's all just projection and so yeah, they For anyone playing the home version of this game CarPlay Has gotten a complete redesign. It looks all glassy. It's the first time it's ever really gotten a new design There is a 3d looking looking full screen map view for navigation that they showed off that looks pretty cool.

That is a cool. It also picks up your live activities. So the live activity is going everywhere where something we knew was happening because it was on the watch last year when you're in the smart stack, you'd see your live activities. It's gonna show us up in the menu bar now in the Mac OS and it shows up in CarPlay.

So you can see this very, very tiny little progress bar of how your friend's flight is progressing while you're driving. And they literally show that off and said, helps you stay focused on the road, which I did laugh at that. I was like, I'm staring at this tiny little icon. What does that say? Oh man, talk about, no one at Apple has the reality distortion effect capability, but they're all striving

for it, like they keep going back to the wall, like well, as long as I say it's helping you stay focused on the road. You know what would really help you stay focused on the road, and I think this is like saying the quiet part out loud for all of us regular people who like to watch sports, and you just can't wait until you get home

to actually watch the game, is if they would just put AirPlay in the CarPlay and just let me send whatever sporting event is currently on my phone up to the giant screen in my dash and just accept the reality that we wanna watch sports in the car while it's moving and my kids are trying to watch it, it's actually safer if it was right there

on a big screen in the dash, then it is floating around on my phone as it's passed around person to person throughout the car. So that's a feature that I'm sure regulators will never allow, but actually I think it's gonna make a lot of us more safe if we could just throw that on the big screen versus trying to watch it on our phones while we're driving because we know that's what people are doing.

Here in Japan, it is a, I don't know, very poorly kept secret that it is extremely easy to jailbreak your car display to show live TV broadcast over like, and you know, antenna broadcast basically. And so when you're driving around or whatever, or in somebody else's car, it is very common for them to be using that massive screen to play broadcast television as they're driving around. And it is extremely unsettling. I would say like,

I don't know if you really want this wish to come true, Jared, once you factor in other people's driving The more unsettling thing is somebody on there You know that the ten in there too and they're holding their phone up there and they're just glancing back and forth between the phone And the road because the screen is so small. That's what people in the states are doing So well Jared and I both live in red states, so I want to be clear. That's true. I'm in the Midwest So, you know, your mileage may vary and your accidents may

vary. Well, we got to we got to we got to keep this rolling, Jared. I need to ask you a question. OK. How do you feel about background images in your text threads? I've never been asked that before.

Trepidation, I think think is the word of the day. I just, I couldn't possibly care less about that. How do you feel about like, are you in any WhatsApp groups or do you use any other messaging apps that have tacky ass background images that make it difficult to read people's text? I have WhatsApp, but I don't use it very often.

I try to avoid it. I haven't seen this in the wild if that's what you're asking. But apparently you have some PTSD. Yes. So when people talk about Apple's messages apps being behind, the two things that they tend to call out are, oh you can't do custom background images on threads, which to me is good. Because every time I've been in Line or in WhatsApp or any sort of third party messenger, it just looks so tacky and the

images themselves are ugly and it reminds me of using ICQ, you know, like way back in the 90s and you'd have sort of like the era of WinApp skins. Like it was cute that we could do it then, but it makes it less readable now. I don't really know what app I'm in. I just feel uncomfortable. And then now if you're in a group threads, anybody at any time control anybody

by changing the background image. Apple added that. So Apple relented and they added it. And I really, of all the things that I hope that there's a setting for in this OS, I really hope I can just turn that off. We'll just get new friends, you know? I might.

That's my solution. I have left group threads over less, so there's that one. The other one is typing indicators in group threads, which honestly, to me, I don't love the typing indicator generally, but when I'm typing to a group, it's actually like, I feel a little bit, I feel a sense of calm that I know that they can't know that I'm typing into the group.

You know, I can, I can think about the reply and then like, yeah, you know, I'll respond to that later. But now giving people a reason just to stare even more at these group threads or see the Apple equivalent of several people are typing. I'm not sure that's a net win, but that is something that people point to, and say, hey, the Messages app is behind. I don't know.

Yeah, I feel like that feature, if you extrapolate law of large numbers, and go across all of the users, think about how much wasted human time there is just watching those dots, waiting for it to come through, you know? When you least don't have to. Yeah, I think Slack eventually added a way

that you could just turn off your own ability to see the people are typing indicator, because I'm a total dummy and I'll just stare at the chat. If somebody's typing, I'm just like, all right, I guess I'll just stop working. I guess I'm just dumbing in my attention. Right, hold on, they're gonna say something. I'm just gonna stare at it like a dog, I guess I'll just stop working. I guess I just don't want to say something I'm just gonna stare at it like a dog, you know waiting for a bone

The other group chat change is that you finally have group cash So if you've got like, you know one person who goes and buys a bunch of drugs for the group Everyone else can ship in and pay their portion of the cocaine bill, you know, using the Apple cash, which is still because they don't do the IRS reporting like, you know, Venmo and stuff. If you're gonna deal drugs and you're fortunate enough to be in America and you can't use real cash,

Apple cash seems to be the best way to go. And now you can do that in groups. So check. Check. So, oh, I see. So you're totally okay with driving while watching NFL games and crashing into other people but when it comes to figuring out how to split the bill on your fentanyl.

Yeah, I'm just a generous person. I just always pick up the tab, you know. Oh, there you go. See? Good say. Not a problem that I have. The other feature that they added is, and I don't know if this shows up as just an iMessage apps, remember the iMessage app store that you can build apps for iMessage?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. I don't know if Apple does, but there's still that plus button where you can do stuff. And they've basically, because Doodle dropped the ball and became this extremely confused company that charges you for everything. I think there might have been another app called Strawpoll, but they finally built polls, group of polls into iMessage. So you can, if the question is,

when can we all hang out, you can finally get that answered. Right. Yeah, that's cool. I mean, catch up game, right? Maybe 80 percent solution. Makes sense. Polls are common. Roll it in.

A lot of these are little touches. Yes. Sherlock Doodle. To the extent that Doodle deserves this. Come on, they dropped the ball. Doodle earned it. They absolutely did. The big one in terms of, and they didn't use the term Apple Intelligence here, but this is exactly the kind of machine learning feature that you'd been talking about is

that they have the spam detection, right? Right, and that's great. I mean, I'm here for it. Too much of my stuff is spam. I block and report everything. Same, and it does no good ever. It does no good. I know it's doing no good, ever. It does no good. I know it's doing no good, and yet I'm just gonna do it

anyways because I'm mad at them. I'm reporting. Sometimes, I insist that this is it being inconsistent and me not just failing to remember the order that you're supposed to do this in, but when I get an SMS that I don't want, I very often will want to type stop at it to make it go away and also report it

as junk. But if your report is junk right away it goes away and if you type stop sometimes the report junk button goes away. So I genuinely don't know which one I'm supposed to do. But that won't be a problem anymore. I'm just skeptical of the slimeball on the other side will actually take my stop message and do anything with it. All they'll do is confirm that yes, I am a live human and they're definitely gonna email, you know, text me next time. I think the carrier intercepts the stop.

I think that's one of the last vestigial thing. Somebody write in. I would love to know the correct answer to this. Yeah, I would love to know the truth about that. If that's true, I'll start to do it, but I actually don't do it. I just delete and report as junk every time. Jared, how about you text me after the show

and I'll respond. Stop. Stop. And then you let me after the show and I'll respond stop. And then you let me know if you saw the stop, but I won't know that because I won't be getting your texts anymore. Doesn't it have to be, doesn't it have to be like a specific kind of thing? Cause it can you just, like,

I tell you too many funny jokes and you just tell me stop. And then they can't just intercept that and block. There has to be more to it. Can't they? I don't know. I has to be more to it. Can't they? I don't know. I don't use SMS on purpose. They're like, this guy just blocked you for too many funny jokes.

That's just not right. Well, anyway, all that to say, they're adding spam detection to iMessage. And they're basically, it's exactly like you've seen probably in any social network, where you've got your other messages bucket of just all of the junk, all the crap. And so that gets all ferreted away over there. And Apple's promise to you is that any sort of time-sensitive thing that you actually want is going to be presented still in the main view, which strains credulity when you

look at the priority notifications and the stuff that kind of gets through there. You know, their example was, your table is ready at yada yada restaurant. But the problem is like now every spam messenger is gonna start with, your table is ready at the whatever, hey have you thought about signing up for a new healthcare plan? You know, like it's, I don't know if their models are smart enough. Right, that's the problem is like Apple's world, like their demos and their everything is always this like pristine version of life that doesn't actually exist.

And I wonder if their models just reflect that. And so they won't be able to handle the real world. Who knows? But holy cow, we're still on iOS, man. We're getting deep into it. Yeah, we gotta figure some, we gotta move along here. Genmoji still exists. So you can remix things, that's great.

Moving on. Image Playgrounds, they realize it's bad, so now it's Jadgbt. Yeah, exactly. They're like, they're good at it. Just with postage stamp sized images. They are good at it. They used the phrase elegant to describe

an oil painting that it made, which was a choice. That's classic. When you think about how much these scripts get reviewed, like sometimes you... Anyway, translation, live translation everywhere. So I'm here in Japan, I speak Japanese, I've spent 20 years of my life now traveling here trying to learn this frickin' language. That was all a waste of time, Jared. I think so.

You know, procrastinators win again. And of which I am one. Yeah, I mean, who needs to learn languages? Just live translate that sucker and communicate with the whole world, you know. You send an iMessage now and what that looks like is they'll see the actual text you wrote as well as it's basically annotated with their preferred language, which I think is a good way to do it. You wouldn't want it just to kind of instantly in case the translation misses some nuance or something.

It's also built into FaceTime with subtitling, which I think is very nice and tasteful. But then they showed the...they built a call API to do audio translation for audio calls, like phone. Did you watch this demo? YouTube is doing that as well now. They have the transcript feature where they would translate your transcript and that becomes the subtitles in the translated language,

but now they've added dubbing, which is pretty new, it's in beta. Where like, actually they're gonna dub your voice and you can opt in, opt out, et cetera. And that's what this is, right? It's basically dubbing your voice into a new voice, I guess, or it's a clone of your voice, but it's an initial language.

So the call API, as far as I could tell, is more like line translation, where you say your line on the phone and you are heard, and then a Siri-sounding stilted crappy voice that's nowhere near as good as chat GPT's advanced Scarlett Johansson voice. Right. She's too expensive.

Yeah, right? Oh, they didn't pay her anyway. Don't worry about it. As for forgiveness, not permission. But then that voice will speak in the other language, right? And then the other person will speak and then it'll translate again. So now what had been two exchanges of audio becomes four and so these conversate and then on top of it slower. So like these are going to be very stilted painful conversations when you're

just on the phone or and then and then and then demo is so awkward and suboptimal in my opinion. Then they followed it up and said oh oh, and now it's an API that you can use with any of your other calling apps. So I'll be curious to see what the uptake on that is. Yeah, I mean the panacea, or I guess the end goal here, would be live dubbing as we talk. So it comes out my mouth in English, it goes in your ear immediately in Japan,

in Japan, in Japanese. The Hitchhiker's Guide Babblefish, you know, just sort of translates in and out for you. Isn't that the end game? I mean, you don't wanna wait on a translator if you don't have to. The best part is I would never actually have to hear your real voice.

And you wouldn't have to hear mine. It would just be two robots talking to each other. I could just have Scarlett Johansson talking to me when you're- As God intended. That does sound better. I'm not gonna lie. All right, moving on. That sounds cool.

They're getting there. Speaking of translation, lyrics now, I, as part of my Japanese study, I started listening to J-pop a lot. Oh wow. I'm not proud of it. You admit that freely? Now I don't have to go and check lyric definitions

outside the app because it translates inside. It even has pronunciation guides. I think the popularity of K-pop and stuff and people wanting to be able to sing along to songs that they can't even read the characters for, totally legit. I think it's a great feature. The other thing that they announced that's new is auto-mix. So this is like a DJ is planning, like you start a song and then you start auto mix. And I feel like how many WWDC is and how many software keynotes have they announced this exact feature? You know, it was like, remember the smart shuffle and then the genius playlists and then like,

you know, the stations like this is, they even had the playlist where you could have AI generate what the next thing in the playlist should be even just a year ago, I think. I'm curious how AutoMix is different. Or better. New name, probably. New name, same feature. Same underlying mediocre ability to detect what the next song should be.

And then hit skip so that you get to one that you actually like, you know, skip three times and they'll find one for you. And unlike Spotify, it will have nothing in the back end actually learning from what you skip. You will just keep skipping. Oh no, they'll give it right back to you soon. Maps app, you know, the only real new thing

is that Maps is four square now. So it remembers the places that you visited and you can search the places that you visited, which is actually kind of nice. I mean, so much of the time I'm, I'll leave a restaurant review just so that I can find it again later because that I did navigation directions to it isn't enough. There's so much low hanging fruit to make maps just way easier and way more useful that like that. Like for instance when I was just in Seattle, like I enter the hotel's address in and I

get directions to it so that it's in there. And then I go to search and like I have to go find that later on in the trip. Like you go back to your hotel three or four times, whether you're on an Uber or a Lime or whatever, and it's like, just keep my most recent places in there. There's even a recent, there's a section for it, but the fact that I'm staying at a hotel all week, you can't seem to get that figured out,

and I have to pin it or whatever I gotta do, mark it as a favorite to come back to it, but it's not really a favorite, am I gonna go to this hotel again? Well, marking it as a favorite is kind of just, it's just a suggestion, right? It's like, it just increases the odds by 20% that the search is gonna actually show the thing.

I know, it's like, why can't you just do these little low-hanging fruits better? So hopefully that's what you're talking about here. I don't know. That's what I'm talking about, we'll see how it gets implemented, again this is opt-in because of course a lot of people are having extramarital affairs and they saw this and they started freaking out

so then Apple had to follow up immediately and be like whoa it's opt-in, you can delete any single thing from your history and this is all on device. Your secret's safe with us. That's what I was saying. Yeah I don't really like when Apple enables degeneracy. You know, like the, what's the app where it's like hide it from everybody?

It's like basically there's your porn app hidden from the world and they're just gonna like help you do your secret things in secret. It's like, let's just let people get caught with that stuff if they're gonna be idiots about it. I don't know, I'm not down with this kind of stuff. It's like, hey, you're having an affair? We got your back.

It's like. When Craig was on stage announcing the hidden app feature, I was disappointed that he didn't sprinkle in any sort of euphemistic dad jokes into that. They played it straight. I can't remember what they say the use case is for that because I can only think of one, like most people can only think of one use case

for the hidden apps. Like when would you have like a non-shameful, so to speak, hidden app use case? To be honest, the one case that I've always wanted Apple to do, cause only they could do it with their platforms, is a plausible deniability mode. Like I would love to be able to put my, like type in a pin code for example,

that would put it into a very boring ass looking home screen with nothing in it and with none of my data there that I could then if I was ever under duress and had to hand it over to a security person. Right, or cross the border or yeah, exactly. Yeah, the phone is unlocked, here you're playing with it and there's, because it's on an encrypted disk, there's no way for them to be able to attest,

like, oh, that's not really their, that is the mode you'd want, but of course, you know, like. That has a useful use case for all humans, like some privacy against oppression, right, but not like, drop one app into a folder. Would any country on the planet allow Apple to continue selling iPhones if it could do that? But they're totally down with the hide your porn app folder.

Hide your porn apps. Hide your kids, hide your wife, hide your porn apps. So anyway, that's the Maps app. I don't know, man. We'll see how that plays out. The Wallet app, they bragged about how car key adoption is getting picked up and then they bragged about how the exact same nine US states that have drivers licenses still have drivers licenses and that seems to have totally stalled

The big announcement for the wallet app from from the ID perspective though Is that digital ID for US passport holders is coming and that's now it's not a state-by-state thing It's it's that'll work at TSA checkpoints supposedly Which is kind of all most people wanted out of the, they were clear to say that it was not a replacement for your physical passport. I don't know if that means like you still have to have it in your bag or something, but it'd be really,

especially with the real ID fiasco in US airports. I have to imagine TSA checkpoints would be expedited if us one dozen nerds who figure out how to find and enable this feature start using this. I'm excited. The additional, talk about Sherlocking, I don't know if you use Flighty, but Flighty is an app that's a popular iOS app that you can share the little progress bar of your flights.

You can do a lot of really cool stuff with Flighty. They basically Sherlocked it in the form of now your boarding pass will both have indoor maps of the airport at the gate where you're landing, so you can navigate there, as well as a shareable interface that becomes like a live activity for any friends and family to watch the progress of your flight, which I think is neat. Seems pretty cool. I will use that. I think other people will use that too. What else we got? Games? There's a games app and it's just Game Center and I don't think anyone cares. So we can probably move on. Yeah, they just, Game Center is games. Okay, cool.

We got places to be. This isn't a three hour podcast, Justin. That's right, although it's looking like one, so we gotta move. Yeah, we gotta hustle. Visual intelligence, so that's the button, the camera control, if you're in a, I just realized yesterday that I'm in Japan mode and so I don't have visual intelligence here.

So when I hit the camera control button, it just opens my camera, which is weird, but actually kind of welcome because of how useless visual intelligence is. If you press and hold the camera control, it opens visual intelligence so you can take a picture of a poster and have add that poster's event to your calendar,

which has happened zero times outside of a demo. Yeah, I can't imagine you use it in the real life for this. In the keynote, they're rebranding it. They're like, if you're at a store and you see a plate that you like, and you can take a picture of the plate and then visual intelligence will show you how you can buy that plate online or something, it's like.

Yeah, a decade of Google Lens being not used by anyone for anything wasn't enough to dissuade Apple from taking a stab at this feature. But Visual Intelligence has been effectively rebranded this time around. Now it's getting added to the screenshot UI. So you take a screenshot. You know, if you... First of all, it looks a lot nicer now.

It's not... I'd say that's a better box for it, I think. Totally, right? Like there's the, you might be familiar with at the top of a screenshot. If the site or app supports it, you can choose between rasterized screenshot and full page where it's like a scrollable thing. It'll kind of come out as a PDF. That's basically now getting an additional functionality where you can

do a visual intelligence search based on whatever's in the screenshot. It's much more likely you're going to take a screenshot of something and then want to turn that into a calendar event. That's kind of what they're going for. And it makes sense in that sense too because you want your computer to do something for you based on how something visually appears. Taking a screenshot is the most natural action that people know how to do. People do it all the time too.

They're like, they know how to take screenshots, they do it all the time, and so this is as an extension of that, I think, will make it get way more use. I've been taking a ton of screenshots and then just using the share button to send that to ChatGPT to ask about it. So I think that having it built in at the OS level makes a lot of sense. All right, let's be done with iOS. And get through some other platforms.

That was, people are saying this was a boring keynote, but if you sweat the small stuff, I think there's a lot of stuff in here. There was certainly a lot discussed. I mean, they went 90 minutes and we're sitting at almost 80 minutes here, just talking about their first 30 minutes. So watchOS, I'm not a user.

I'm not interested in WatchOS. I lost my watch two years ago. I've never felt better. I didn't buy a new one and I feel freedom from closing rings and having notifications go to my wrist and like I couldn't be happier to not have a watch, not have an Apple Watch, I wanna never have an Apple Watch again, although I did watch the Watch OS segment

and a few things that made me think, oh I should get an Apple Watch. But that's how they do it, you know. The workout stuff is cool, except for, I don't know if this is just jumping the gun, but the buddy, the workout buddy, is that the Watch OS segment? Was that the workout buddy?

I was wondering, yeah, yeah, it's workout, I was, is he excited about workout buddy? Is he gonna be the person? Let's talk the workout buddy, is that the watchOS segment? Was that the workout buddy? I was wondering, yeah, yeah, it's workout, is he excited about workout buddy? Is he gonna be the person? Let's talk about workout buddy and then let's skip the rest of watchOS because there's just too much to talk about. I think workout buddy is so creepy, like the voice is bad and-

The cringiest, oh my God. It's so bad, I mean, I understand conceptually why it might be cool and I think the Nike app has something similar. Like there are workout things that have, but they might be real human voices. This is like straight up Siri voice or their new version of Siri voice. And it couldn't be less.

It's like, this is a voice in your head. I am motivating you right now. Yes, you did a great workout. I believe in you. Exactly. Who are you? What is this? There's a workout app that my sister and I use sometimes that it's a real person, but she does a stock like 30 minute whatever and she walks you through stuff.

At the end she always says, good job, you crushed that workout. And I always say, you don't know that. Maybe we just phoned it in. And it's just funny because there's a disconnect in the reality of it, it's like this thing is so not real that I couldn't possibly motivate a single human to think that you did a great workout today is gonna be like, feel good, it's not gonna feel good.

Thanks workout buddy. Exactly. I wanted to give up halfway through, but man, thanks to you. Watching that bit of the keynote, so we've talked about this, but I built an app last year for my wife called Build with Becky. It's a subscription program for strength training. It's got lots of videos of Becky in all sorts of doing all the movements and each program

has got a little video explaining it. She has always gone out of her way to not make value statements or make assumptions about what's going on on the other side of the screen with somebody, and I have a newfound respect for her professional restraint, a collection of workout buddy. That's a great way to approach it, because even this gal, I don't even know who she is,

and she does a good job with her app, but when she says, great job, you absolutely crushed that workout, which she says at the end of every single session, I'm just like, I roll every time. And if you could just skip that part, you're gonna get credibility with me at least. And workout buddy's the opposite.

Like it's just your little motivational speaker in your ear and it's not even, like the voice doesn't even convince you like it's They could have got better voice actors or something. I don't know the whole thing seems like cringe to me There well, maybe there's somebody who works at cooperino who is actually motivated by workout buddy. I'd like to meet that person. That's So would I they'd probably be motivated by lots of stuff. You know, like it's just very easily motivated. Yeah, hey, so you said you were looking forward to something about Watch OS again, but then we talked about Workout Buddy.

It wasn't Workout Buddy, it was just like the advancements in the workout app and kind of the new design of it and the way, just like, they just continued, it's been a few years since I've used the workout app because my watch broke and I never got a new one. And so I just quit using the workout app. I quit using the health app. I'm just like, I live life like a normal person.

You're way more mindful now, now that you don't have the mindfulness app to worry about. Exactly, I don't have to stand up when it tells me to. I don't have to breathe when it tells me to. It's like, I'm not a minion to this thing on my wrist. The fascists. And so I'm just happy. But when I do see kind of like the advancements

in the workout app, and it just looks like, you know, they know that that's what people are using the watch for, and so they've made it really good. And so that makes me think, oh, that might be good, because you know that, you still have that feeling of like, oh, tracking myself would be cool again, but it was just a momentary weakness, and I remembered,

no, that's a life of hell. Just live your life and go ahead and just exercise when you want to. I will say in terms of what got me excited about it is the liquid glass design I think looks, it makes the biggest improvement to watchOS over all the other OSs. And it might be because the background of watchOS is black

and so the glass is like legible. There's no overlay. As it exists, like the newer watchOS designs where all of the controls are on the corners as opposed to all these scrollable UIs, those buttons are really tiny. They can sometimes be hard to spot. And now you can clock those liquid glass buttons way more clearly because they're glossy and there's like a little bit of momentum around the pushing of them.

So I'm actually kind of excited because as you're scrolling through the watch, like there's just more physicality there and like there's way more. It's the only OS that has is now higher contrast thanks to the existence of liquid glass compared to all the others. And so that's, yeah so that's worth something. And you know, messages gets backgrounds on WatchOS too, which is terrible. Oh, but WatchOS has the Notes app now, finally.

So you can take notes. Do you use the Talk to it or how do you take a note? They didn't get to that part, but they're there. Okay, all right, well we'll see. And I'm excited about it, because I go for my run with my watch every day and I don't take a phone with me. And so I'm just adding reminders constantly using Siri,

which fortunately, at least that usually works. But being able to append to a note or something, hey, I'll take it. TVOS, it is... They mostly just talked about new stuff coming out. They're like content, content, content. I think that they actually organized the show a lot better this year because instead of starting with a totally out of place Apple TV teaser of trailers and stuff, they just

moved it to the TV OS section because the TV OS is really about the content. They talked about two of our most popular apps. One is the TV app that you have to use for basically every function of the device. And the other one is music, which I don't think anyone actually uses on purpose on their Apple TV. I've never used it on the TV, I don't think. But well, now you can do karaoke

and your phone can be a microphone. And you can sing into your phone. You can sing into your phone. I'm not on board with that until it's ready to score me and teach me pitch. If it, me being louder isn't the thing anyone in my family needs. I just want it to live dub me with Whitney Houston's voice and then I'll be on board.

Yeah, I want you pretending to be Whitney Houston to be my workout buddy, Jerry. No, that would motivate. I'd be motivated to do something. Mac OS, so. Yes, finally, thank you. We start this section and Craig is driving again. Oh yeah.

And the little scooter. And I noticed maybe for the first time that just like Jaws and previously Phil always claims the iPhone Pro announcement segment, that Craig always reserves the Mac OS piece for himself. And I kind of like that. He clearly loves the platform the way that you do. So I think I'll hand it off to you and you can share your opinions. Oh, I mean, I'm just really excited that Spotlight's gone steroids now. I mean, I feel like for me as a lifetime Spotlight user now, I did start off like every Mac nerd on Quicksilver and I've tried Alfred.

Yeah, Quicksilver was what got me into it. Yeah, Quicksilver. But I'm also a minimalist. And so as soon as Apple offers an 80% solution, I just kind of turn into an 80% user versus continuing to power use. And I find that my life is simpler that way. And so when- Yeah, we're not gonna install Halide. We're gonna use the new camera find that my life is simpler that way. And so when-

Yeah, we're not gonna install Halide. We're gonna use the new camera app and we're just gonna be done. Absolutely. And we'll be happier for it. One of the masses, you know? That being said, of course, I get feature envy of the Alfreds

and now the Raycasts and all the other things. And I have to defend myself against Adam and Nick and apparently yourself who's also a Raycast user. And just to say like all the way Spotlight is good enough for me but not as good as those other things and they just really revamped Spotlight and added so much functionality to it that I'm like a, I might even install the beta

just to get in on this thing and I'm not a beta installer myself. So that's the biggest thing for me. There's tons of little things, of course, as we go, but that's what, probably the one thing that truly got me excited was like, oh yeah, Spotlight, biggest update ever, let's roll. Yeah, the Spotlight demo, I didn't catch the name

of the person who was delivering it, but he wrapped his demo by saying, and that's how it boosts my productivity. He actually talked in the first person, which I'm sure he's getting taken back to the woodshed afterwards. Because that's not. Yeah, that's not according to the guidelines.

That's not their corporate speak. But I think it was coming from a, they probably let it slide because it was genuine and authentic. Like it was clear that, because he starts the demo saying, Spotlight's gotten its biggest update ever and immediately my eyes glazed over because that's the 30th time they've said that about Spotlight. And then like, then I installed the beta or I installed

the release and then Spotlight still can't find Safari. Like it spins the, you know, the wheel and whatnot and can't open apps effectively and can't find any of my files. And so that's typically I I think, the most, the biggest reason that Quicksilver and all these other things became popular was Safari was just so slow and its index was so poor. Now, you know, Safari, you use Safari every day. Like it can launch apps, you know, quickly.

It can, it can find files. But what they've added this time is it can time is it can basically execute any single app intent. So any app that you have installed that has intents, which is the same UI mechanism that feeds into shortcuts, that feeds into what will later be called Apple Intelligence again. If you want to create a... It basically can create a MABlibs multi-input interface. So like, if creating an email is a function call, and it's got a, you know, a dressy and a subject and a body, you can type in the quick keys for mail whatever, like, I don't

know, I'm making it up, empty space, and then it'll fill out the MADlibs, and then you can actually just tab through and fill in all of those different pieces of the function. That UI looked slicker to me than anything that you can do in Raycast even. Yeah, it does look really cool. Now would I actually use it? Probably not, but hey, it's got clipboard history, so let's rock and roll. There you go. Clipboard history, man.

That's the other thing. That's the white whale. I'm a simple man, Justin. I'm a simple man. Justin, I'm a simple man. I'll be interested to see how clipboard history interacts with security. Whether or not the passwords app, when you copy something there, they're probably being pretty smart about aligning that. The other thing that's really nice is that this is the first time I can remember that

Spotlight's really meaningfully customizable. So those quick keys, like the two-letter acronyms to go and launch one of those app intents or to launch a particular app, that's kind of why I use Raycast. I had been using it for the AI stuff until AI just became everywhere and ChatGPT had their own Mac OS app. But the quick keys in Raycast are like I hit G and then I hit tab and now I'm googling, well I'm cogging the web really really quickly wherever I am. So yeah, this really seems to catch up spotlight with most of the reason most people would be installing some third party command space bar dingus. Yeah.

And the Raycast CEO, whose name is Escaping right now, we've had him on the show prior, took 2X and probably LinkedIn as well. I didn't check other places to write. Today I think a big, I don't know, is a diatribe a bad thing? It's not a bad thing. It's a response to a certain extent.

But it's like, you know, he didn't save the 280 characters. He went full, like, is it a post? I don't know. It's a long thing for a social media platform. Kind of responding to them being Sherlocked. Like, he's basically like, I think we just got Sherlocked, but you know, here's where we're gonna go from there. Because they really did catch up in a lot of ways

to the Raycast's value proposition. So I think that'll just push Raycasts to do new interesting things. That's the hope. Either that or they're gonna go away. And they don't wanna go away,. I think that'll just push Raycast to do new interesting things. That's the hope. Either that or they're gonna go away. And they don't wanna go away, so I think they'll have to innovate. And if it's an 80-20 thing,

I think a lot of Sherlocked apps do this where it's like, cool, now I get to lean even more into my niche. If you have a niche, you've got a reason to exist, now I can get even more 20 percentery. And that can be a great thing for the power users who probably are the early adopters of the app in the first place. Yeah, exactly.

So spotlight updates are cool. A shortcuts coming to Mac OS, that is big. Not as big for me because, you know, I can write bash scripts and stuff, but like I think this will bring that kind of opportunity to weigh more people and of course shortcuts does have hooks into apps and stuff that Bash can't necessarily get at. So there's some stuff here that you can do.

So Mac OS has had the Shortcuts app, but the thing that it hasn't had is the automations tab and that is finally there. And like it was three weeks ago that I had to go and do that dance where you figure out how to add a new launch D agent to a computer and I had to go and do that dance where you figure out how to add a new launch D agent to a computer. And I had to do it so I could run this backup shell script. And do I know if it's running or not? I don't know. And so then I had to add to that script something that would literally email me upon success or failure to know that my backup was running because there's just no observability until I launch D from in user space, right? Like I'm trying to write to a log or something and then shell into my computer from here. But like now that you actually have real that automations tab and can have it be triggered

by stuff. You remember like really old apps, like was it Marco Polo was the app where you could like have your network settings all change based on what network interface you were using and connecting. This is like 2005, 2006. Like you can now have a shortcut run based on which network you join, right? Certain apps launch, certain times of day. So having shortcuts automation running on the Mac, which is probably the most likely computer you have that's on 24 seven, especially if it's a desktop version. So if you've got any sort of household, servery kind of tasks now, shortcuts can be that place for you. And the other big feature is one of the actions that any of those shortcuts can take is you can ask chat GPT or, you know, local LLM or private cloud compute to do stuff

for you. And I think you can actually, it will try to massage it into a structured response based on where you plan on that thing going. So if you've got it iterating over whatever the results are, it kind of gets the clue that like, hey, I want to be asking the model for a list of items, which I think is super duper clever. Yeah. Yeah. The demo that he showed was like, he highlighted some text he had in some stupid document he was making for some stupid reason.

And he's like I want a new tagline for this and so he highlighted the text, he launched Spotlight which launched a shortcut or something that handed off to chat GPT I believe unless it was an on-device model I can't remember but it's handed off to an LLM that said like generate me some taglines that are better than this one. And it came back with three different options that he could actually then tab through. So it's some sort of list, structured data, that he could select one of those

and it would automatically either copy a clipboard or just replace it in his pages app. That's fuzzy to me as well, but it seems like there's some nice seams there to make it pretty useful versus just like blobbing out random crap and you have to deal with it. I think there's a ton of apps right now that are charging 10, 20 bucks a month

that are basically wrappers around OpenAI's API key and they do like one thing. And now anyone for free can basically create a shortcut action that is effectively a low code, no code AI app. And they don't have to f*** around with API keys, and they have a decent enough interface that they can navigate that. So I think this is going to be something that a lot of users are gonna take to. And it's a net, really a big win. If you're a developer, you do get access to the models, but only the local LLM.

You don't get to talk to private cloud compute, you don't get to talk to chat GPT, not for free. You gotta go and get your API keys for that. So if you're just an end user using shortcuts though, you do get to talk out to the cloud. And you'll get potentially better responses than a developer would. Now, there's going to be a story for that over the course

of the next few years. But I was impressed that Apple actually went for it and lets you call through to the models in the same way that KnockOn would. The context-aware Siri eventually will be able to. Yeah, I think it's gonna be super useful. And I think a lot of people who'll have access to these things who otherwise wouldn't

without some serious vibe coding chops. Well, moving on, do you have any other Mac OS takes before we move on to your favorite operating system? I will give you, first of all, Continuity is amazing and I love any time they add continuity features which they've done not very much of but still some, I think the, I'll just reuse the word, the continuity between devices is one of the reasons why

I still appreciate these platforms working well together and the more they can make my phone and my Mac continuous, the happier I am. I give you five minutes on Vision OS and then we're cutting you off. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, start the timer. I'm gonna go back to Mac OS and just say

that the biggest continuity feature in Mac OS is actually the concentricity of the sidebars. I just imagine John Cerecusa cringing real hard when the sidebar became a floating round rect on top of a round rect. Oh, I know. But they did a separate video and they explained why that is and I think it makes a certain sort of internal sense even if visually it's going to take some getting used to. Over in Vision OS land, you know, not a lot has changed.

Although I think more should have. If you're gonna jump 23 major versions in one year from Vision OS. Three to 26, you should expect more than this. But the persistency, I guess, of widgets and windows was the biggest thing, as far as I could tell. Personas look a lot better. There's some enterprise features that probably don't apply to anyone on this call or anyone

but the two enterprises that have adopted Vision Pros. There's a Jupyter environment. That's great. But really, the existence of widgets as things that you can place in your space, you can kind of just draw a straight line to what Apple's end game is, is like, why would you buy one of those crappy displays that has a Wi-Fi connection to one gigabyte of your photos, right, that you put on a mantle when you could just have one of our glasses that you wear and you have placed your real photos on there and it's in

high resolution and it's always updating and it's always in the same place or like you can put a clock on the wall right. I'm a guy who's got a six-bedroom house and I have nothing on any of the walls. I'm real minimalist. So the idea that I could like put crap up with my Vision Pro and then have it all be there in the exact same spot forever, honestly, that doesn't appeal to me very much, but I could do it in theory. And I was gonna say, you can't be excited about that then.

Yeah, I'm not. In fact, I'm kind of worried because the other thing that's persistent now is all of your windows also are always in the same place, but like I use my Vision Pro from like five different spots in my, and I move around a lot. And all I did was remind me of that one version of Mac OS, it was probably 10 years ago at this point,

that whenever you reboot the computer now, like now, then and now, by default, we'll relaunch all of the apps that you had been using, put the Windows in the same place. So basically, why does Justin restart his computer? It's because my computer is getting slow and it's too bogged down with too many things running. So I reboot the computer and then it's like, great, now I'm just as slow and all the app

state is also all incorrect. So I've created one problem. You can check that box though, right? There's a box you can check that says don't do that. There's a box you can check, but it actually only does it some of the time in certain circuits. Basically, I got into this dance where I hit Command-Shift-W to close all the windows in every app and then Command-Q across every single app

just to clear the deck of my whole computer and then I reboot. And then I shut down. Blank slate. So now with Vision OS where you have even less control and you don't have a keyboard in front of you, I'm worried it's gonna just, you're gonna boot up and it's gonna be like, hold on.

It's gonna stiff arm you for like 90 seconds while it boots all your crap and puts it in place. But as somebody who uses Vision Pro from an Eames chair at that sort of reclined state, the fact that the Eames chair got highlighted in their demo was, that made me happy. I don't even have five, look, I don't even have five minutes of content.

They don't have a lot of show for Vision OS this year. Yeah, I appreciate that, I guess. I don't know what the future of Vision OS looks like. I think it's a long-term play for them, so they'll continue to invest in it, but they sure didn't have much to show over the last 12 months of investment. The biggest hint that there is new hardware coming,

in my opinion, is that they're shipping the feature where two people in the same room, both wearing Vision Pros, can watch a movie together. Because what's gonna happen is they're gonna release new hardware and then a lot of spouses are gonna receive handing down Vision Pros. That's right. And so as soon as that happens,

they're gonna get up, calls off the hook, being like, hey, how do I watch a movie with my wife or whatever? And I think they're just preempting that. So I suspect that probably not by the end of this year, but maybe the March next year, we're gonna get Vision Pro 2. All right, quick aside,

in order to round out your five minutes, what do you think of Johnny Ive joining Sam Altman to build some sort of hardware device for OpenAI or with OpenAI or whatever's going on there? What do you think that is? What do you think they're making? It's obviously not an answer to Vision Pro, but it's gonna be a competitor

to whatever Apple's putting out next, et cetera. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, we don't have enough time to dive into the psychiatric analysis of that Sam and Johnny video that they put out. I will say that the fact that like the Lorraine Powell jobs interview with Financial Times, like, and the admission that like the Lorraine Powell jobs interview with Financial Times and the admission that like there have been quote unquote dark uses to the iPhone and

to a lot of the inventions that Johnny I've had a hand in and that they both have a sense that like there are bad externalities with the phone, which is something I've been talking about since I, the very first day I got my iPhone edge, I was like out to dinner with Becky and I was like ignoring her so I could watch the New York Times dot com page load over the course of three and a half minutes on the edge network. And I was like, this augurs poorly for humanity was my sense in 2007. And that did come to pass, right? And all sorts of terrible things have happened.

But the idea that like the solution to that is like, let's let's give the keys to the kingdom to this guy who basically wants to make Skynet is, I suspect that even if they come out with the perfect device and this device is truly, all it does is increase girls self-esteem and help people who are addicted to sports gambling on their phones, find a healthier, happier way to live. Like even if all it does is solve a lot of these problems

that Johnny Ive helped create, then what's gonna happen is they're gonna cash out, they're gonna retire, they're gonna move on to the next thing. And 10 years from now, this same product line is going to reach the same point of maturity where they have to squeeze more blood from the stone

and you're gonna wind up in the exact same situation that Apple kind of finds itself now painted into this corner where like most of their money comes in from Google search referral money, and from, you know, Candy Crush Whales is most of the services revenue, right? So those perverse incentives, I think, are just sort of a inevitability of basic capitalism

when you're trying to chart quarter over quarter growth. And so rather than fight it, I think being cognizant of that's the reality we live in, let's design devices based on what that end game looks like. Coming in like eyes wide open makes more sense to me. So to answer the question of what do I think it's going be, I think it's basically gonna be a humane AI pin with a better backend. And still no real solution to the fact

that they don't have a platform. That like they can't talk to the iOS the same way. Like I think it's gonna be, it's gonna come with a pitch to also. It's gonna be a silo. Yeah, maybe they'll put out an Android phone, to go with it, or really, really top tier Android integration, sort of like the Pebble group are trying to do.

But I'm skeptical, you know, and they've said that it's not going to be a wearable per se, it's not going to be a watch, it's not going to be glasses, it's not going to be a pin. So then people already are imagining it's going to be like one of those like little like personal AC cooler things that kind of goes around your neck. Those are cool. Or a pendant that maybe is like a, you know, multi-form factor, it can sit on your desk

or you can wear it like a necklace. Man, I don't know how you solve the platform problem. Like you've got this device in your pocket that's got a huge fricking battery and a great cellular connection. Always connected. Like any smaller thing without a screen isn't going to have those things. And maybe it'll have a, I don't know. We'll just have to see.

What do you think? Good. I like the pendant idea. I think that they've kind of ruled out like everything else. It's like, well, what is it, invisible or something? Like what other things are there? Earrings, I don't know. I agree with you, they certainly have,

I mean if the platform is voice, meaning if the interface is voice, then I think they're well positioned to make that a compelling, as compelling of an interface as anybody else is. But I just don't think that that on its own is a compelling device. And so I think there has to be a screen, but I don't know, I don't know what it's gonna be.

I like the idea of a little necklace, maybe you can put it down, maybe you can cast onto the wall. Like those things are cool. I don't think there's's gonna be. I like the idea of a little necklace. Maybe you can put it down. Maybe you can cast onto the wall. Like those things are cool. I don't think there's been a cool one yet, but like the idea of like a tiny projector that can push onto something. Or maybe the old Star Wars,

help me Obi-Wan Kenobi kind of moment with the 3D. Or a little hologram. Holograms would be rad. Like something that captures our imagination a little bit and just is out there and different. I don't think that's Johnny Ive style, but I don't know, neither one of us know. I just thought I'd hear what you think.

Yeah, we'll just have to see. I think Sam Altman showed the hand a little bit and said we could imagine you get hardware periodically as part of your GPT subscription. And so if it's already a hardware subscription business, then maybe whatever connectivity it needs is also rolled into that. And so they've sort of got a cellular backbone kind of built into that same subscription model.

So it's not like the humane pin where you got to go and get a T-Mobile sidecar for 25 bucks a month just for this device. But there's a lot of real fundamental problems that they have to solve that they wouldn't have to solve if they were able just to get unfettered access the same way the Apple Watch does to the phone. Which they won't have.

And they're gonna have to work around that. Amazon kinda did that with a Kindle and their WhisperNet, so that's like a very minimal amount of data. I almost said whisper net, but then I thought, there's no way I get to talk to Scarlett Johansson over the whisper net. It's not. Not in the bandwidth.

It's gotta be a full-throated conversation. Okay, let's do what Apple did and say the last six minutes for developers. Hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm skipping. I'm skipping. I'm skipping. You can't skip all of iPadOS. iPad is finally, you can finally do development on iPad.

It's got a poignier pointer. There's a show title. It's got a poignier pointer. It does. And so look. All right. Just to say iPadOS. Three minutes on iPadOS.

Good Lord. I feel like I was the one who suggested we order things in this order and now I'm regretting it. So like look, multitasking. Cause this is your most excited moment and I'm trying. I'm a modal editor guy, I use Vim. I believe in modes, you know. However, stage manager as a mode that you go in

is like, what mode do I want my iPad to be in? Do I want it to be in single tasking, usually works most of the time mode? Or do I want to be in stage manager, multi-tasking, nothing works pretty much for sure all the time mode. The only time stage manager works better than non-stage manager mode is when you're on an iPad in landscape mode and you need to access a

an app that only works in portrait orientation because then it'll let you kind of get away with like windowing it into something smaller but otherwise the fact that these are different modes has really just been an admission that stage manager sucks and the new iPad multitasking seems like a ground-up rewrite multitasking seems like a ground up rewrite where everything is windowing by default. You can drag from the little Vision OS style grabby do in the corner and start using multiple windows right out of the box and having gestures like expose where you can swipe up once and you can see your desktop and add another app to it. So you're not typing into Spotlight to try to figure out how to add some app that doesn't happen to be at your dock into your multitasking

interface. And then if you swipe up a second time, everything gets shunted away, right? So then you can get back into single tasking mode without having to do anything fancy. Like, this is a multitasking mode that you could actually explain to a real human in under 10 minutes, which is something that wasn't true before. It lets you actually move the windows around. It has real tiling. It has the traffic signals of the X and the minus and the plus, and they're hidden behind triple dots.

I think probably because if you accidentally close something it's really hard to un-close a thing. But, so there's like a little bit of indirection there, but overall, I'm very excited to muck around with iPad OS. It's got better files app, yada yada. So there, that's probably three minutes. Let's talk about developers at the end. Okay, well, I mean, you are going to do development on your iPad is the story though. So there's

a developer story there, right? Sure. And by development, we just mean not Xcode and also nothing that has an on-device compiler. We mostly mean the VS code web interface or maybe a terminal app that works sometimes. But you can imagine the future now. Before I could not imagine them launching Xcode on iPad, and now I can. The other thing that they put out is the long-running background task. They launched Final Cut Pro a year or two ago, and you couldn't do exports from it unless you kept Final Cut Pro in the foreground.

Now it can do that and it has like a sort of a permanent, you know, little banner notification explaining why your battery is running down so fast. Gotcha. I didn't know that they didn't have background mode. I haven't followed iPad OS because I haven't owned an iPad for a long time. And so I just don't, just don't care very much.

And so I know they had a final cut for iPad, but I didn't know that you could export. I thought you liked continuity. You're robbing yourself of so many continuity opportunities by not wearing the watch or the, you gotta go in and get, you don't have Vision OS? You gotta get all these platforms, Jared.

Think of how much continuity would be in your life You see I have kids and so I can only have so much continuity, you know, you've got all the You know the spare funds to purchase all the devices. I only have so my vision pro is my child. There you go There's some continuity for you developers six minutes developers developers developers developers Icon composer. Hey, you got to compose these 3D physicality liquid glass icons somehow. That's right. They did a demo of it in State of the Union, and it looks legit pretty cool.

It basically, you can pull in any SVG, and it will automatically get the layering right. And then for each layer in that SVG and it will automatically get the layering right. And then for each layer in that SVG, you know, by default, because it has to work in clear mode, you'll see those just outlines and you can set how much blur on each level of the layering that you want to kind of give it the sort of sense of, you know, what kind of glass are we talking at each of the levels? They were pretty upfront and said, hey, four layers is about the max. You probably don't want more than that.

And then you can apply tint to each of those layers as well so you can kind of give it your blessed color combo, right, for each of the things. Like the weather app's got the yellow sun, for example. It looks completely reasonable. Icons have always been something where it feels like, yeah, I'm an iOS developer, but for my icon, I go and hire this other person, or Icon Factory as a business, right? It was a totally different function.

This I could totally see myself, I can get dangerous in Figma and SVG editors and vector editors. I could totally imagine myself building my own serviceably okay icon using Icon Composer. And not only knowing that it produces a single artifact instead of the striped 45 different outputs that you used to need when you were submitting an app, it can also create marketing images, like rasterizations that are appropriate for like brand books and stuff and screenshots for the app store. So I think it's pretty slick.

Xcode of course also gets like V1 edition of GitHub Copilot. Basically is what it looks like. Which, you know, it worked in the demo. It's like function level, autocomplete. Yeah, I mean, it worked in the demo. It's like function level autocomplete. Yeah, I mean, they've got the on device predictive tab complete, but they also finally got the sidebar now.

It's not called Swift Assist, as far as we can tell, because that just never really happened. It's probably not, I don't, I didn't see any evidence that it was agentic, but in the State of the Union, they did show that like you can pull in your own API keys and use in addition to JTPT, you can use Claw, you can use other models. They're trying to embrace as much as they can and understanding that they're not going to be the solution to every single problem. Personally, as somebody who wants to be learning

Swift, the idea that I would have to do that in an IDE that had no AI assistance whatsoever, when the one thing that it's really good at is teaching you the basics, I was a little bit concerned. So that Xcode has this as I'm about to start diving in for Sirius, can only be a good thing. And of course there's tons of stuff for developers

that didn't make the keynote, and even the State of the Union and so they have like more videos coming out all week. I always am interested in what's going on. Over 100 sessions. Yeah, I'm always interested in what's going on in WebKit specifically as a web developer and they have sessions coming out about that.

I didn't have the time to watch. Our old friend Saron Yitbaruk is at Apple now, at Apple now working on the Safari team and she actually recorded the video for the new stuff. Oh, Saran is at Apple? Yeah, which was, I didn't, I'm like, that looks like Saran and I clicked on the video, I'm like, sure enough, there she is recording the video

for what's new on WebKit in Safari, whatever, whatever. Like, that's cool. Man, everything I've heard from Saran lately is about her toddler. I should follow up and- Yeah, you should follow up. Set a reminder. That's pretty incredible, yeah.

The other stuff that's exciting, I mean, a lot of these APIs that they've announced over the last couple of years seem like they're really maturing. Man, this Liquid Design thing has clearly forced them to catch up on SwiftUI. So SwiftUI didn't have a way to do a rich text editor. Now it does.

And so you have rich text editing in a SwiftUI way, and it saves as an attributed string, so you can have your genmojis in there as well. Additionally, SwiftData supports attributed string now too. And so you can just sort of see that they're, like I said, now seems like a really, really good time to start version one of an iOS app. If you've got an existing one and you've already got a lot of duct tape and rubber bands holding together, like in bridging all of these gaps that had previously existed, you probably are in for a very busy summer, is my guess.

But if you're willing to start as iOS 26 as the first version, it seems like Apple finally is pulling together a lot of this stuff. And how many developers are gonna come along for the redesign ride? And that'll be the question, you know. Well, we have the, I don't think uncanny valley is the right word,

but like the middle ground, the... The double A. The limbo, you know, mode where you're just like half the apps have updated and look like the new stuff and then other ones haven't and you're like, oh. They were clear that when you build in the new Xcode, Xcode 26, so Xcode also gets to jump, this time 10 versions.

When you do hit build, you're going to get liquid glass. And then when you realize that breaks everything, you get a checkbox and you can check to stay on the old UI controls. But they were clear in the same sentence. It was like, basically, this will be removed in the next major release. So you get one year moratorium on that checkbox. So you can keep working on your app and keep shipping it. But yeah, this is, this highway only goes

in one direction it looks like. I also read that the new Mac OS Tahoe, which they're, and it's still Mac OS 26, but also Tahoe, or is it just Tahoe? It's Mac OS 26, and they're still naming them for some reason. Okay, so I'll refer to it as Tahoe. Yeah, Tahoe's fine.

Or 26, I guess if I say 26, it's ambiguous as to which platform, but Tahoe will be the last Intel supporting operating system, that's what I read today. It's true. And it makes you wonder whether or not that means that they're gonna have a Mac Pro for us that looks anything different.

The 2019 Mac Pro redesign is looking along in the tooth. Yeah, is that still the most recent Mac Pro, the 19? No, the design was in 19. The most recent one. It has an M2 Ultra in it, which of course, you know, like you go and buy a Mac Studio and you get either an M4 Max or an M3 Ultra. The rumors that like they had a Hydra or M4 Extreme kind of Mac Pro in the offing that didn't materialize.

So one hopes that if they're gonna kill Intel Macs next year at WWDC, they would do it with the pizzazz of saying, hey look, this is an extremely expensive computer that can't play PC games, even if you really want it to. But it'll have the games app, so I'll have that going for it. Yeah, you'll have the games app to play, let's see, what did they show?

Very few games. Yeah, there was like four or six. As has always been the case. All right, let's wrap, two hours, we're just, we're killing it, man, we went so fast through the last session. Did I exhaust you? You looked, it is, we started this at five a.m. my time, it's only seven a.m. here, I could go all day, man.

You're still waking up and I'm going to sleep, so it's not bedtime here, but it is just like, dinner time pretty much, so yeah, I'm ready to wait on those betas. I think I might install the Mac OS beta, not early beta, but maybe late summer, just to get that spotlight action going. Other than that, I'm just gonna wait till fall.

I think all these OSes come out in the fall basically, right? Or they should. Yeah, yep. And if they don't ship by 2026, like we got a problem from a version numbering perspective. Now they'll all come September, October. And honestly, I'm looking forward to it, but I think it's gonna be a long summer

of people complaining about contrast issues and readability, and we're all gonna be negotiating how frosty do we need our glass, and that'll be exhausting. We'll be salty about the frosty. There you go. There I go, all right. If you want the unabridged version of this conversation

in which I have been dubbed out and it's just Justin talking to himself, I'm sure he's probably gonna stop this recording and start his fresh one as his thoughts are already on topic. Check out Breaking Change. Where else should I point these fine folks? I think searls.co is where you live, right?

Yeah, searls.co is the master domain. My blog, my website, which I have spent way too much effort for just an individual blog, is justin.searls.co. That's right. It's a static site, it's like a Hugo site. You'll be interested to know Jared because we've talked about my posse adventures in the past and stuff.

Because I've added an enhancement script now, so that whenever I post anything to it, it actually goes and fetches the OG images from all the sites I link to and creates little web cards in a GitHub action, and then decorates it back into the site. Oh man, it's, if you're an engineer who's ever- This is your other child.

Yes, Vision Pro is my first born. Now, so- This is your- I love talking's the only child. Yes, Vision Pro is my first born. This is your... I love talking about the blog because if you're a programmer who on a weekend has ever built a blog or over engineered the **** out of your blog only to then write exactly one blog post ever, I think that you could find a lot to love in the obsessive care that I've taken over a lot of the stuff in this website that truly does not matter.

So if you're interested, check it out, please. Justin.serles.co. So what happens if you just go to serles.co? Oh, it says augers of accidental applications. Yeah, so that's Serles LLC. Me and my brother, his name's Jeremy, we're co-CJOs of a thriving software enterprise that's just the two of us.

Gotcha. Cool, well I'll let you get back to your day there in Japan and I will end my day here in the Midwest. I assume people know where to find you. They've already found me. If you listen to this right here right now, they've already found me. They're listen to this right here right now, they've already found me. They're in the right feed.

That's right. Appreciate you all your time, all your takes, the hot and spicy, and otherwise. Anything you'd like to say before I let you go? No, I mean by the time this comes, our friend of the show, Adam Lizagor, and Sandwich Vision are helping to put on John Gruber's talk show.

Mm, I like going into Vision OS again. Tonight, nighttime, tomorrow, your time. And they're doing the Vision OS thing with theater. And of course, by the time you're hearing this, this will have already aired, so we'll get to know who John's mystery guests are. But, yeah, I don't know yet what's gonna happen there, but I'm looking forward to it.

I think it'll be great. Very cool. All right. That's our show. We'll talk to you all on the next one. See ya. Have you heard? We are doing a live show in Denver, Colorado at the end of July.

Saturday, July 26th at the Oriental Theater in Denver to be exact. Join us there for the entire weekend if you want. We'll be meeting up at a local pub Friday night, recording live on stage on Saturday morning, hiking Red Rocks Saturday afternoon, and who knows what else. It's going to be a blast. Get all the details at changelog.com slash live and join us if you can. Seriously do it. Seriously do it. Do it. Thanks to our sponsors at fly. Seriously, do it. Seriously, do it, do it.

Thanks to our sponsors at fly.io and retool.com and to Breakmaster Cylinder. We love those sweet, sweet beats. Next week on the pod, news on Monday, Carson Gross, the CEO of HTMX, joins me on Wednesday and Adam and I analyze all the recent software moves on Friday. Have a great weekend, tell your friends about our show if you want to help out,

and let's talk again real soon.