The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - ShopTalk & Friends (Friends)

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

Chris Coyier and Dave Rupert join Adam and Jerod for a ShopTalk & Friends conversation on the viability of the web, making content, ads to support that content, Codepen's future plans, books, side quests, and social networks devaluing links.

Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, our weekly talk show about the viability of the web platform. A big, big thank you to our friends and our partners over at fly.io. Yes, the home of changelog.com and the home of the public cloud for developers who ship those who are productive. That's you. That's me. That's us. Learn more at fly.io. Okay, let's talk. what's up friends i'm here with jasmine cassis from century they just wrapped up their launch week and they're always shipping so jasmine what do you think about century's mantra of always be shipping so to me century always shipping is just in the spirit of iteration and constantly improving what we're doing to make developers ship with more confidence. We're always listening to our customers' needs and pain points. We're always iterating on products that we have launched.

And on top of that, we are also, even if we look at things that customers haven't explicitly asked for. We are trying to innovate and provide solutions that I think would be really beneficial to help developers debug with more confidence. I love that. So I know there's been an addition to one of the features out there that kind of exemplifies that. Can you share more? Yes. So something that the team has been developing for a long time and is currently in open beta is our mobile replay product. So historically, replay has always been for web, but now we have brought it onto mobile, specifically Android, iOS, and React Native. So this allows our developers, no matter what stack they're using, to get video-like reproductions

that actually help users see the repro steps that led to an error and also understand the user impact of an error. Okay, Sentry is always shipping, always helping developers ship with confidence. That's what they do. Check out their launch week details in the link in the show notes. And of course, check out Session Replay's new edition mobile replay in the link in the show notes as well. And here's the best part. If you want to try Sentry, you can do so today with $100 off the team plan. Totally free for you to try out

for you and your team. Use the code changelog. Go to Sentry.io. Again, Sentry.io. you've capital cased chris with several exclamation points and dave you you did not you sentence cased i'll fix it i fixed it i'm i'm yeah here we go i'm i'm on brand now oh look at that do you think a web socket was involved there what technology technology is used here to send data? I think it's a WebSocket, yeah. I haven't actually looked under the covers, but I would assume it's a WebSocket. Yeah, it's not. Are we past long polling?

Is that over? I've definitely long polled in the last years, too. I can't remember why. Yeah. Have you? Cool. I think I have, too. I can't remember why exactly,

but sometimes the basics do your right. Well, how often do you need it to be actually real-time? It's just more and more. I've been bathing in it because of our, as of yet, unreleased CodePen 2.0 is just very, very real-time. Okay. And it requires various technologies to do so. I was going to say, if you become a mob expert.

Yeah, at this point, we're just like, it's too hard. So we've used this company called Abley. Have you seen them? And we're just like, screw it. We'll just send everything through that machine, which uses whatever they need to use. And it's not always the same thing, depending on what APIs of theirs you use.

But I love outsourcing. I was going to say, if you become a MobX dork, podcast's over. That might end the podcast. Can't handle it. I wouldn't be able to handle it. No, I'm a fan though. They're not a sponsor, I'm sure, but they should be. Heck yeah. Because it's good technology.

A-B-L-Y. Check it out. Now does CodePen have sponsors as well as your other properties like ShopTalk? Yeah, we totally do. We're probably, you know, there's a piece of the revenue pie that is advertising. It's complicated for me because advertising's been good for me in my career, you know? And I'm kind of a

fan. Like, advertising at its best is companies that are hyper focused on their product that need to reach an audience, but they don't have the staff and expertise to do it because they're busy building an awesome product. And then they reach out to the media or whatever whose expertise is building an audience through good content. And that's a perfect yin-yang to me.

And I like that. I don't think that needs to change, really. The problem is, of course, the real story is just way And I like that. I don't think that needs to change, really. The problem is, of course, the real story is just way grosser than that. Ad companies

get crazy with their tracking stuff and that product companies get into advertising too. So the real story is messy, but I'm still attracted to

the simplicity of good advertising. When done well, it's amazing, you know, when done well. Yeah, and I would like to, you know, on CodePen, I'd like to be such a platform that it would feel silly to have an ad on it, frankly. No, that doesn't offend any of our current advertisers,

but imagine, you know, getting a GitHub email or something and having there be a big ad on the bottom. It just feels not right. Like, GitHub would never do that. They make their money because they're, or something and having it there be a big ad on the bottom it just it feels not right like github would never do that they make their money because they're uh through all the ways that they make money advertising not being one of them it just doesn't feel right you know i want to be that someday sure i grow up tasteful ads that's what i'm i'm for well placed yeah yeah when you expect them well considered yeah semi-opt in a way you With a podcast, you kind of opt-in because you know that your podcast that you're listening to is ad supported.

And you kind of expect the ad to be there. Whereas a GitHub email or a CodePen email, you're like, hey, that doesn't belong there. Right. That's not a well-placed ad. Yeah. I had Carbon Ads on my site for a long time. And it was great. Great. Good company. Yeah, I had a carbon ads on my site for a long time and it was great, great, you know,

good company. And I made like 20 whole dollars a month, you know, I'm on hacker news or whatever, $20 man, you know, and, and the click through rate on those ads is like a hundred X industry standard. Like it gets 10 clicks versus one. So it was a good ad, you're saying, too. And it was still $20. And it's at the bottom of our website. It's very discreet.

You're probably doing more for the ad network than they were doing for you at that point because they get to say, oh, get your ad on the site that other developers will recognize. X thousand impressions. Yeah. but I just kind of like, you know, I think it just, it's like, I don't know, just seems like even that experience with a good ad company and I was getting

clicks, I wasn't like raining, I wasn't making boat money, you know? And so what would that number have to look like Dave Dave, or to become like, all of a sudden you start thinking, do I need, maybe I could just write. Well, yeah, I think, I think, you know, I, I've heard like YouTubers or something, you know, where it's something like it's the thousand marks, you know, at 1000 subs or 10,000 subs, like, you know, I think you're getting into the, like, this is a chunk of change I can pay attention to or have fun with. And then like, you know, a hundred thousand subs you're in the, like quit my job territory, you know? And those, these are probably like, let's say like

$5,000 increments or something out $3,000 increments. And so like, then you're like, but then when you get to like the millions or whatever, then it's like, yeah, I should quit my job, you know? So it's all, I don't know. It's interesting. I don't know what the, I'd kind of contemplated like, what if I just gassed it, you know, just post, just doing it, you know, every day, boom, boom, boom, boom, doing it. And like, really, this is a secret Dave dream. Well, I, I tried and it was just like dude i'm going to die

doing this i'm i'm a post a week person not opposed you know five posts a day person you know so i'm sure somewhere inside of you you know what the real answer is it's like you can't it's not good quality vegetables information it's just incendiary crap. It's clickbait. It's, you know, five ways to use border radius. It's all that, you know, you find some drama. I mean, look at all the biggest channels do that. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's not quite that simple, but well, all my best content comes from my job, like doing a job that pays money, you know, like, like I learned hard lessons by trying dumb ideas, you know, we have a tough niche in that way is that all of us do that. None of us would listen to a developer show where the developers weren't developers.

Right. You'd see right through it. Yeah. That was something I learned pretty young, actually in college, because I had college professors teaching me computer science. And it was fine, but it was like stodgy and outdated stuff. And I was like, why are you teaching Perl when Ruby on Rails exists? Just one question I asked my web development class teacher.

And he was kind of like, well, because I know Perl. I'm like, okay, fine. But then I had one adjunct professor who was a databases guy. And it was a night class because he worked all day doing databases. And then he came and taught a class one night a week. When you liked his real world action. Well, he just understood it in a way that I felt like the other guys didn't. And maybe it was just my selection of teachers and all that. But I was just like, okay, adjunct is, this guy's living in it every single day. And so he doesn't bring back hypotheticals to teach us stuff. He like actually shows us all dealing with this at 3 p.m. this afternoon.

And I thought that had a lot of weight to it. And so, yeah, having actual real world code out there and being into it, I think is a big part of it, which has been a struggle for me, honestly, as I've gotten further and further into the editorial process of like continuing to build and setting a time aside to actually experiment and tinker and build stuff that ships. I don't want to lose that edge. Yeah. Do you think, I feel like I came away from, I sat down for a meeting with, there's a college

here in town in Bend, Oregon, Oregon, whatever, School of Cascades. I just butchered that. I didn't go to college there. Cascading Oregon. Is that like a CSS school? Oregon State University, whatever it is. The Cascades branch of it. We just got to talking about the curriculum that they have for computer science.

And it was like, they do make an attempt to have people come in from the real world. They have all kinds of mechanisms for this. During the classes, they have extra stuff. There's like ways to have people that are in the industry talking to them. And I was happy to do it and did it after that meeting. And it went well. I thought it was cool.

But then she was talking about just the curriculum as it is. It's not like stodgy, but it's not, I don't even think it's Ruby on Rails, you know, not that it's older than that necessarily, but it's really fundamental stuff that's not, that doesn't concern itself with the technology du jour really. Because a lot of it is just like, here's how you put some data in a database. And the purpose of it was so fundamental of technology that it doesn't need to and probably shouldn't change every single year. Because there's also human beings that need to teach it

and those human beings need a little time to get good at what they're saying. And if you change it every year, then they're just not getting there. That's part of it. And part of it is like, it doesn't even matter because it's like the concepts of like whatever an index on an SQL database is like not changing that much.

Right. Anyway. Yeah. Striking a balance is definitely important. And I don't think that you should just always teach the framework du jour. There's a certain point at which you look at a curriculum and you say, this is 15 years out of date. But I don't think you have to be you know, Next.js 11 in your college web dev course.

I know. That's so old, Jared. It's like 15 now or something. That's true. I'm showing my age. They just released 15 and it annoyed me

because I'm like, it's based on React 19 which is not stable yet. So you're like, really? We're shipping stable frameworks

with unstable or unstable meta frameworks with unstable frameworks underneath it? Ooh, that's a mouthful. I have just completely avoided Next.js, not because I'm against it, but because I just have been able to avoid it. Are you guys build with that toolkit, Dave? I do. I like it.

Chris does? I don't. No, I'm in web component land so full-time so that's kind of where i'm existing so is that the promised land i hear web component land is the promised land oh well uh yeah i'm happy to share the good news of web components with everybody here at the changelog share it up go let's hear it tell us the good news, Dave. Dave's the president. Imagine a world. I'm the president of Web Components. That's a well-known fact. You know, you can be the president if you just say you are.

It's funny. It's kind of a cool thing about being a president. So, I mean, it's, again, like framework churn, meta framework churn. I don't exactly have that problem because not using a framework. I mean, in Web Component Land, you use a library typically. You know, fast is the one I use for work. Lit is what I kind of enjoy using. But I'll even write a vanilla web component from time to time.

Not my favorite because, like, ergonomically it feels like antiquated, but it's totally doable. You just chuck some HTML into a shadow route and there you go. But web components are, I don't know, they're pretty easy to write. They're super easy to read and reason about. They're class-based, which drives, I think, people who are into functional monads crazy but they are

it's pretty predictable when you hop into a web component and even if like let's say i've multiple times converted a lit component to a fast component is pretty easy was it yeah because like a lot of the methods are the same or or concepts are all the same. Unconnected callback. Yeah, there's prescribed names. And then, you know, and you take a template, you take some styles and you take a class and you smoosh it together to achieve a packaged web component. And so like, you know, switching frameworks isn't a huge deal for me right now. I mean, if I had thousands of components, it might be a whole weekend of my life, you know, but even if like all of these died and I had to go back to vanilla web components,

that would be achievable as well. It wouldn't be the end of the world. So I think we're committing like the baby sin though, of being like next JS versus web components, which to pick, which is like not the dichotomy that should be painted because those things even can work in React, which I know is always caveated with the like, React didn't like Web Components for a long time. It's still doable and it's gotten a lot better in 18 and 19 and stuff,

but also React isn't the only framework in the world. They tend to work great with all kinds of other frameworks too. So it's not a versus thing. And in fact, I think it's almost problematic to think of it in that way because it's like Web Components has no story for routing and state management and all these things that are the reasons that you pick a framework or some of the major reasons and that they can work together. Dave has convinced me, he talks about leaf nodes, about these little, the smallest of the the things the ones that don't have a bunch of other children and stuff are great use cases for web components and that can happily exist in your svelte kit app you know your whole design system could be web components whereas the website that you're

producing can be in a view app or whatever yeah it gives you a lot of freedom is kind of the ultimate answer like i mean you can generate your app with c++ i mean like anything that spits out html can generate web components you know eleventy astro are also good candidates because they are like pretty just html forward in how you author and use them but you know i think you mentioned ruby on rails like web components work great and ruby on rails you just put them in there you know if you've ever tried to staple ruby and uh react app together if you've had that wonderful experience it's not my favorite uh but web components work pretty great in that context. Yeah, I think, and we're seeing a lot of sort of gains just work on lower end devices, less memory usage, things like that.

So it's been kind of a boon for the work we're doing. somewhat promulgated by a lot of the online dialogue, specifically coming from some framework authors around web components and calling them things like the most dangerous thing to the future of the web. And I can't remember the exact quote, but it's like, now you're making me feel like there is just two sides and like there's side web component and then there's side framework component or whatever you want to call it, React slash solid slash what have you.

And as working developers, we're busy, we're trying to build stuff and we're trying to keep up, but we don't have, all of us, the time to dive into the milieu of that debate and understand that Next.js doesn't rule me out from using web components in the way that you just described. We just see like this versus that, and it's hard to break through that. And we just write it off and move on.

Yeah, fair enough. I don't know how we actually fix that, but I think it's like there's some of that going on. I don't know, because they're not entirely wrong either. You know, that's what makes this such a juicy thing to think about is that you might make a card component and react and name it capital c card and call it and use it and you also might make a card web component like those

are two things you can do that is comparable right that is straight up one-to-one comparable and it can be complicated because you're used to and react like well i'll just use the on click attribute then on the button and the on clickClick will call my useState thing, and it will change some state or whatever. It's all these things that you can't do, at least not in the exact same way, in a web component. So then how do those two worlds clash?

Can't you see having that be your first experience and then being absolutely annoyed with web component? You're like, well, that doesn't work. You know, I'm gonna have to wire this up a totally different way. Why would I use this? You know, I don't know. Dave's also said that everybody's first experience with the shadow knob sucks. Yeah.

Which is funny too, is it takes you a minute to work on them. And then you're like, oh, I get what this is for. But that first run in you have with it, you're like, what the hell? Yeah. But that first run-in you have with it, you're like, what the hell? I guess the question really is, Dave, how do you get to live in Web Component Land? How do you get to have that choice to not bounce and dance around the frameworks and you get to live in your own blessed land? To be fair, I've come from a lot of building my own CMSs, Ruby on Rails, CakePHP, things like that. And then a lot of like building my own cms's ruby on rails cake php things like that and then a lot of you know dynamic stuff and then went into kind of bit by the static bug you know a lot of jekyll eleventy astro-y sort of work um some clients wanted like webflow and stuff like that and then

did a startup wrote that in view that was in view in Vue, in Vue 2, Nuxt, JS. But, you know, we were unable to make the jump from two to three because it was just like so much code and so much work for our small team. But for the last like seven months, I've been working at Microsoft. And their teams at Microsoft are kind of betting heavy on web components to solve some pretty, what would you say, necessary performance profiles. You know, if you think of Windows, full disclaimer, I don't speak for Microsoft. So there may be things I can say or can't say, I don't really know. But the like, if you think

of Microsoft as a company that makes an OS, right, it has a browser, but then they don't control the hardware of that OS. The OEM ultimately does. And I mean, you all have seen different devices that are good and bad. And you're like stereotypical Windows devices that like Dell under your uncle's big wood cabinet that also has like a big CRT monitor in there. Classic. Yeah, classic. in your uncle's big wood cabinet that also has like a big CRT monitor in there, you know. Classic. Yeah, classic. But then, you know, at the other end, there's like all these gamer PCs with like LEDs and like, you know.

Tricked out. Yeah, fully tricked out PCs that like mine Bitcoins and. Water cooled. Yeah, exactly. All this stuff. And then like, you know, but then there's all these, you know, but that's just an example. But you can kind of see like when you break out of the classic $3,000 laptop realm, you start to see a wide array of performance profiles that your products have to meet. And so that's kind of where web components are fitting in so so if we go back to your conversation around your humble website and your age your front page hacker news traffic that brings you you know n dollars per month wherein is not significant enough to like double down or triple down stands for not significant i'm not trying to rub it in i'm just trying to get us back there no you think

like oh man if i got on hacker news i, I would be famous and I would be great. It doesn't work. It's like literally four hours of like server sweat. That's it. That's like, it's just, it's not, you're just like, please don't fall over because I don't want to deal with that. Yeah, we front page enough times and know it's like, it's like also the most fickle traffic you'll ever get in your entire life.

That's it, right? You don't want that traffic. I mean, in your entire life that's it right you don't want that traffic i mean you do you can you'll take it you know yeah but you what you want is just like organic google you know search engine traffic and that story is even changing too but those people are like looking for something they have a job to be done in their mind they're like i need to learn how to do this thing right and then they might find it on your website or they might be like, I don't know, maybe this other link will have it. That's where you're getting the clicks and stuff. Right, which was the beauty of CSS Tricks

because it acted not only as your blog, Chris, but also as this wealth of returnable organic information that people find solutions to their problems. Yeah, it was this long tail thing. Exactly, and you created a beautiful business around that. And what I was trying to bring it back to, Dave, not to just pick on you about your end dollars per month, but just thinking about 2025,

you guys are very much website folk, as are we. But I'm wondering about the viability of a website in 2025. Now, of course, if we think about content site versus driving a business or apps, I mean, obviously CodePen is a web app, website play as a business, right? But if you're starting in today, we're at the end of

24 here, for those listening in the future, is the web a viable platform in 25 to start a website and then drive traffic to that website and make money somehow. I'm going to buzz in. Too existential. Don't like the question. Yeah. Error. Transcripted.

Forever. Well, I think in the last year or so, we've witnessed the completely self-inflicted implosion of an entire social network. Wouldn't it have been nice to have all your stuff on a website as opposed to threads on popular social media sites? Sure. So in my mind, a website has become more valuable in 2025 than years prior even. In sense of ownership and longevity. In owning your content. I mean, literally, there's a case before the Supreme Court where Elon Musk is saying, I want to – no, I own Infowars.com.

Like, the onion can't have – Yeah, I own at Infowars.com. Like, the Onion can have... Yeah, I own at InfoWars. Oh, the handle. Okay, because the website was bought by the Onion, right? Yeah, Onion bought it, and they're like, that Twitter handle is an asset that we want. I see. And Elon is...

That happens. That happened to CSS Tricks. I had at CSS, and part of the sale was it is that DigitalOcean got that handle. And Elon, in this case, could have been like, nope, you can't make that part of the business transaction. It's actually mine. It's actually mine. Which is technically true, right? I suppose, yeah.

I mean, it is. Even back before Elon, Twitter could reassign a handle. And I remember them doing that. I mean, even if we go to NPM and the Kik handle, that's what created the LeftPad debacle was the author of the LeftPad NPM package also owned a package called Kik, K-I-K.

Remember that? And Kik was a startup and they contacted NPM and they said, we're a startup and we want to publish a package called Kik, K-I-K. It's true. And this guy owns that. And NPM took it from him and gave it to the Kik startup.

And then the dude pulled all of his packages, including LeftPad. That's how that went down? I remember LeftPad, but I didn't remember that. That's how it went down? Yeah, he was upset that could happen. Yeah, he was pissed. But they were within their rights to do that because every NPM handle is owned by NPM

and every Twitter handle is actually owned by Twitter slash now Elon Musk. Right, they're like internal business decisions. There's no law. Yeah, which sucks. And to Dave's point, you don't own that property even though you're investing in it all these years, right? But you don't own it.

Here's one for you. GitHub.com slash changelog. Who's got it? Who's got it? Not us. Not us. So at 404s, it's protected. This is an example of it.

We're at, we're just github.com slash the changelog because we cannot be changelog because they are probably using it internally we've asked over the years from the outside it's 404ing so that just means that yeah so what do you care yeah right and we've had plenty of people that are like yeah we can get you that because they work there even high up and then they're like no we can't but it's likely being used or protected that's the thing like it may be used internally. Just in case. Right. So.

And then can, like, that's the real tap on the shoulder is like, hey, can you give it to me and redirect every single link that's linked from one to the other? Otherwise, it's not that useful to you, I don't think. Right. Because I'm sure there's all kinds of links to it

that you would wreck. And it's like, why bother? Well, for us, we're just, it's just anal retentive. Like, we just want to have it the same everywhere you know that's kind of us we're like we just want to be changelog everywhere see that's where i wonder if reddit won because they have the slash you always you know oh it's so smart oh my god in lots of ways reddit did kind of win didn't they i mean yeah i mean they kicking. Well, and they don't sit around like, oh, I want to add a route, but I have to kick somebody, you know, like they don't have that

problem. That's true. Yeah. We have a file in our, in our app called username underscore blacklist dot RB because the signup process is still rails, right? It's a little service we have. And every time we invent some new little thing, we need a new route of any kind we have to remember to go into the username block list and make sure that that route is not a taken username otherwise we risk somebody signing up for it or something and having it conflict with the routing it's just a silly little detail and there has been a few cases where we had to kick somebody off a username you know like they have the username account or something and like we need slash account to do something we're like oh sorry you can't have

that i don't think anybody's ever cared there's never been like a high profile case of it but it isn't right i originally signed up as slash img and chris kicked me chris slash IMG. Yeah, try to get API or whatever. Yeah, that's a good little hack there, you know. So we got here because Dave's argument was that you don't own your own content. The Elons are the future owners of Twitter slash X slash Meta slash Facebook, whatever. Pick your platform where you got ownership

of some sort of handle you feel like is yours because you have claimed it. But the platform owner and the conglomerate, it may or may not be, is the true owner. And that's the challenge. That's the rub, is the viability of the web, is that... It's true on CodePen too. I actually own your thing. Sorry. That's right. You know, like I've tried to be cool about it and I value stuff exportable and all that. Yeah. But if we really need a username or something, I'm afraid that's an internal decision by us. Okay.

I got it. I got one more thing here. CodePen.io slash changelog slash changelog. It's 404s. Come on, Chris. 404s on our system. That means it's just open and you can just have, you can just go get it. Okay, sweet.

Go grab it, Adam. We'll have to clean that quick. You've got T minus however many days. Till publish. End days to figure that out. Or till Chris throws it in his Ruby file and we can't have it. There was a Hank Green video the other day, internet personality Hank Green.

And it was like a Mastodon versus Twitter versus Blue Sky kind of thing, which at the time of recording, Blue sky is the new hotness that we are talking about. If you're listening to this in the future again. Yeah. It's the new hotness again. Yeah.

He was, you know, he was kind of saying like, it sounded like famous guy on internet complaining. He's not getting enough likes. I'll, I'll give it like, he was like,

I posted this here like i posted this here and i posted this here and i feel like this one got shadow banned because i mentioned blue sky because i posted it without the word blue sky and it got more likes the next time you know it got more engagement like eight minutes later or whatever so like it's kind of weird maybe some anecdata or evidence there but it also just goes to show like there's also this theory that he exposes that is like Facebook and, and Twitter are, and maybe even, I guess like LinkedIn, I don't even know. But these social networks, let me say that these social networks are kind of like impeding the like views the algorithmic views of things with links in them yes because they are they want you on their own site a link is a bounce out it's not doesn't keep you there so better to like it's 100% true offends me so

horribly it's 100% true right well yeah i would love to see more data on it. It seemed like... Well, it was right there because Twitter did quote-unquote open source their algorithm. And you can go read it right in there in specific. Now, the other ones are all kind of reading the tea leaves. So I won't say it's 100% true around LinkedIn, but everybody who studies LinkedIn will tell you that it is true. I know

at one point in the Twitter open source algorithm, it's right there. Like, devalue if it has an external loop. Wow. That makes me so sad. Just yesterday, I sat down, I saw a cool, this is good content for a podcast anywhere. Look up Numberflow.

It's a really cool component and they make it for React, Vue, and Svelte, even though it's a web component under the hood. It probably should offend Dave personally that they should just make the web component usable. But it's so beautiful. Just click those numbers, the shuffle button at the top of the Numberflow website.

It's so beautiful. And I was like, I'm going to show people this in a video. So I just record myself as a little video. I'm like, I'm going to play with it. I'm going to show people how to use it on CodePen too. So now I have this little video that I want to share on my social networks. And then I go to write a little tweet for it from on CodePen too. So now I have this little video that I want to share on my social networks and then I go to write a little tweet for it

from the CodePen account. CodePen is still a little bit on Twitter because it's harder to stomach getting rid of that for business perspectives. It's easier personally but I don't spend a lot of time there but if I shoot a video like this I still want to do a tweet for it.

So I write out the tweet and I say, oh, look at this. This is a really classy web component. I put the video on there. And then I'm like, but it doesn't feel right to not put the link to the thing. I feel like it's too weird. I'm just playing to the algorithm. If I don't put the link

or I do this stupid little thing where you reply to it and then put the link in the reply, it just makes me vomit for some reason. I hate it. That's why it's there for a lot of accounts that when you see that on there, I've seen... They're just playing with the algorithm, you know? They just know that if you put an external link

in the main tweet, it's going to get devalued and so they put it in the... Yeah, that's what makes me just barf in my mouth. I can't deal with it. So I put the link in the thing. I'm like, I don't care. Just devalue me then. I'm putting the link in the tweet. That's right. I'm just doing it. So I put the link in the thing. I'm like, I don't care. You just devalue me then I'm putting the,

I'm putting the link in the tweet. I just, I'm doing it. So sorry. Like our little form of rebellion, you know? Yeah. But it just, it like,

it attacks what's good about the web. Like, like 100% aggregators, people who share links. Like I found this, this is cool. Like that is like what, that's the,

the fabric, that's the webbing of the web. And we just like give it up but you know like my favorite blogs are blogs that link to blogs followed by blogs that write blog posts about other blog posts those are like the two best blogs it like when i'm on the verge and they're talking about a product and they don't link to the products website i get so mad you know like i'm just almost like blood rage like please just link to the thing you're talking about spend time fleshing out your description link to everything if you can yeah well all the pertinent things at least if it was a main highlighted thing for sure try to link

out to it you know yeah i mean if you're reviewing a thing yeah i mean we're we probably ebbed and flowed in our in our uh ability to fully best execute show notes jared over the years like sure we've done pretty well i would say right i feel like the more podcasts we produce per week the harder it is to make awesome show notes every single time and now back in the day we used to like handwrite sentences and it was a much more bigger deal. Well, can't you, our solution to it, which is not,

I don't, I'm not saying this is the way to go, but we don't put links in the transcripts either because I think that's really hard to like,

the moment I say the word Abley again, to link that to Abley, well, that's a, it's a tall order there, I think. Instead,

we just put a pile of the most relevant links at the top. Just be like, links from the show and it just will just have Abley in the list up there. That's a tall order there, I think. Instead, we just put a pile of the most relevant links at the top. Just be like, links from the show. And it just will just have Ably in the list up there. That's basically what we do. A list of links. And we try to get them all. I like your style with that.

You're like, I think you actually use the terminology, just links. That's cool. Just links. Here's links. And I think we do something similar where it's just like a notes section. And it could be a paragraph. It could be links. it could be a list, it could be an image.

It's almost like a blog post in a way in terms of what it can contain. It's not just links. I've seen people go deep, deep, deep on their show notes and I have respect for it, but I also just think, that's a lot of depth on show notes. You are, you are SEO'd bud. Good job.

Yeah. Later. You know, and now it's all AI. There's AI generated show notes and there's all, you know, it starts to get where it's like, Oh my goodness.

What's up friends. I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of fly. As you know, we love fly. That is the home of changelog.com. But Kurt, I want to know how you explain Fly to developers. Do you tell them a story first?

How do you do it? I kind of change how I explain it based on almost like the generation of developer I'm talking to. So like for me, I built and shipped apps on Heroku, which if you've never used Heroku, is roughly like building and shipping an app on Vercel today.

It's just it's 2024 instead of 2008 or whatever. And what frustrated me about doing that was I didn't, I got stuck. You can build and ship a Rails app with a Postgres on Heroku the same way you can build and ship a Next.js app on Vercel. But as soon as you want to do something interesting, like as soon as you want to, at the time, I think one of the things I ran into is like, I wanted to add what used to be like kind of the basis for Elasticsearch. I want to do full text search in my applications. You kind of hit this wall with something like Heroku where you can't really do that. I think lately we've seen it with like people wanting to add LLMs kind of inference stuff to their

applications on Vercel or Heroku or Cloudflare or whoever these days, they've started like releasing abstractions that sort of let you do this, But I can't just run the model I'd run locally on these black box platforms that are very specialized. For the people my age, it's always like, oh, Heroku was great, but I outgrew it. And one of the things that I felt like I should be able to do when I was using Heroku was like run my app close to people in Tokyo for users that were in Tokyo. And that was never possible. For modern generation devs, it's a lot more Vercel based. It's a lot like Vercel is great right up until you hit

one of their hard line boundaries and then you're kind of stuck. There's the other one, we've had someone within the company, I can't remember the name of this game, but the tagline was like five minutes to start forever to master. That's sort of how our pitching flies.

Like you can get an app going in five minutes, but there's so much depth to the platform that you're never going to run out of things you can do with it. So unlike AWS or Heroku or Vercel, which are all great platforms, the cool thing we love here at ChangeLab most about Fly is that no matter what we want to do on the platform, we have primitives, we have abilities, and we as developers can charge our own mission on Fly. It is a no-limits platform built for developers, and we think you should try it out. Go to fly.io to learn more. Launch your app in five minutes.

Too easy. Once again, fly.io. And I'm also here with Kyle Carberry, co-founder and CTO at Coder.com. And they pair well with Fly.io. Coder is an open source cloud development environment, a CDE. You can host this in your cloud or on premise. So, Kyle, walk me through the process. A CDE lets developers put their development environment in the cloud.

Walk me through the process. They get an invite from their platform team to join their coder instance, they got to sign in, set up their keys, set up their code editor. How's it work? Step one for them, we try to make it remarkably easy for the dev.

We never gate any features ever for the developer. They'll click that link that their platform team sends out. They'll sign in with OIDC or Google, and they'll really just press one button to create a development environment. Now that might provision like a Kubernetes pod or an AWS VM, you know, will show the user what's provisioned, but they don't really have to care. From that point, you'll see a couple buttons appear to open the editors that you're used to, like VS Code Desktop or, you know, VS Code through the web, or you can install our CLI. Through our CLI, you really just log into Coder

and we take care of everything for you. When you SSH into a workspace, you don't have to worry about keys. It really just kind of like beautifully, magically works in the background for you and connects you to your workspace. We actually connect peer-to-peer as well. You know, if the Coder server goes down for a second because of an upgrade, you don't have to worry about disconnects. And we always get you the lowest latency possible.

One of our core values is we'll never be slower than SSH, period, full stop. And so we connect you peer-to-peer directly to the workspace. So it feels just as native as it possibly could. Very cool. Thank you, Kyle. Well, friends, it might be time to consider a cloud development environment, a CDE. And open source is awesome. And Coder is fully open source.

You can go to Coder.com right now, install Coder open source, start a premium trial, or get a demo. For me, my first step, I installed it on my Proxmox box and played with it. It was so cool. I loved it. Again, Coder.com. That's C-O-D-E-R.com. I understand the networks out there wanting to contain, subcontain, and deprioritize. I understand where that thought process comes from. But at the same time, like, wow, what if you just play to the strength of the people and the aggregators, as you said, Dave, or just people who are happy to share where things came from. And like, wow, what a social network who embraces that, that embraces

that. Like that's kind of Reddit in a way, like Reddit links to everything, right? You can go on there. And that's why Reddit kind of has stood the test of time. One slash you is great and slash R is great. But at the same time, slash you is great and slash r is great yeah but at the same time like you don't have these clashes you have a lot of freedom in there there's no d to my knowledge no deprioritizing links out it's kind of like part of the game i will say that it's a challenging website to navigate sometime like it's it's hard to understand like where the content is it seems like it's not always for me as the reader or the consumer. And I don't really like those kind of practices as a design team

when you make those choices. Let me confuse you by where the rest of this conversation actually is. Yes, or anything. How do you continue this conversation happens frequently. And then they went and destroyed all the third-party clients. That made me very mad. What's that one where there's a bunch of people launch their product on it? You know what I mean? Product Hunt.

Product Hunt. Always had like a weird like get it button that you had to click or something. It's just a link to what it is. You're like, what is get it? It's like it often didn't work with the thing being launched. It's not a thing to get really, so I don't know what that is. Product Hunt was never attracted to me.

It's just a regular guy looking for cool stuff it's just like it felt so it always felt very promotery to the point where i just didn't really want to use it even though i saw it i remember it the initial launch and people were using i might i probably even have an account i do have an account every once in a while i get an email from them like hey somebody, somebody followed you on Product Hunt. I'm like, cool. But it feels like promoters promoting to promoters. What about launch weeks? The next best thing after that comes launch weeks. When you can't promote it and get attraction on Product Hunt, you create your own week or month even. Which has become the rage over the last, I would say, three-ish years, but more so in the last two years concentrated.

It's a weird marketing vector. Like it's, it's this word. It's so hard to get attention. We're going to make a whole week of feature releases to just like, we're just doing it. It's going big, you know, like everything we're landing it all at the same time. You know, I'm, I'm way more like, let's do it. Like always be shipping always through the year. Like, let's not do these big drops, you know, but'm, I'm way more like, let's do it. Like always be shipping always through the year. Like, let's not do these big drops, you know, but I don't know.

There's gotta be a reason around it. You know, I just want attention on what they're up to. I mean, I love shipping consistently, but it is hard to get interest on what you're up to. I remember when the app store first dropped and I used to read all the release notes of the apps that came out because I was a nerd and I was like these are cool I want to see what's new in tweet bot or whatever it was and over time I'm like I just can't care anymore even with my favorite apps like I'm just I'm over it so it's hard for development companies and firms to like like

hey pay attention to us like we got something we want to show you. It's not your standard bug fix or minor feature. We got some big stuff, and we want people to know about it because there's so many people shipping stuff all the time. Brings me to CodePen 2.0, Chris. You're trying to probably bring some attention to that release, right? Yeah, it's a little early, but it's about time. I've never been in this position in my career, I don't think,

where I have to pick the moment which you got to start the hype train and that moment is before it's fully shipped. I generally prefer to get it done and then just tell people and then they can use it. But I think that's probably not appropriate when you're trying to really build a bunch of enthusiasm and stuff. I think it's maybe just a smidge too early, but we're in alpha and the alpha is in good shape as of, as of recently.

So if anybody listening really wants to check it out and wants to check it out with me, because that's how we're kind of defining alpha for us is that we do little kind of guided tours. You're still using the website and stuff, but I kind of want to watch you do it and talk about it and, and using the website and stuff, but I kind of want to watch you do it and talk about it and help find bugs and stuff. And then in the next couple weeks, I think, we'll be in beta, which is a little more

open. Don't quote me on that. I don't know when this is going to ship exactly. It's better bet is just to email me, chris.codepen.io, and I'd love to show it to any developer. But yeah, I don't know. You didn't ask me to do that. Why did I go off on that? No, it's all good because we're talking about promotion. But yeah, I don't know. You didn't ask me to do that. Why did I go off on that? No, it's all good

because we're talking about promotion. It's a natural motor. Are you worried like developers aren't going to fully understand the revolutionary DX and just paradigm shifting? It's all about speed, baby. Yeah, I mean, you're shifting some paradigms

and I love it. It's very good. I've seen it. It's shifting tons of paradigms. It is actually a little bit. It has its own compiler. So we're entering that market a little bit. Interesting.

Not a little bit. The whole thing is kind of based on it. What's it compiling? Well, your code, really. TypeScript, I hope. Of course it does. But we're not trying to invent any new languages. We're just trying to invent a new way to combine technological choices like that.

So if you want to write in TypeScript, which most people do these days. Hallelujah. I got to go. I'm locked. Yeah. Now, I've come around on it. I don't know if I'm a TypeScript stan yet, but I. Dave literally left.

Note for the audience, Dave is gone. He's wiping his lips. Sorry, I had to let my dogs out, but that was a perfect timing. It was great. That's tremendous. You do sometimes need to think about and figure out how it's going to work with your stack.

Sometimes it needs to be configured. Sometimes it's on you to like, well, I guess I need to have a TypeScript compiler too then or something. And I don't think anybody really relishes that DevOps work. How is that going to work in our build process? I want to add something new to it. I'm compelled by, say, Lightning CSS or something, some new thing.

And you're like, well, does it work with Astro though? That's what I use to build a website, so where do I slot it in? Am I going to find docs for that? And it could be a lot of stuff. It's not just a combination of two technologies. It could be all kinds of different stuff. As a developer, I kind of want to push my cart

through the aisles of technologies and be like, I'll have one of these, and I'll have some web components and I'll have, I want to write them in TypeScript and style them with SAS and then build the site with Eleventy and all that stuff. Wouldn't that be fun? And you know, our idea is that like, yeah, for sure. You can do that. Just, you literally just click some buttons and then we wire them up for you. But the way we're wiring them up isn't like we read the docs and build configurations for you. It's the compiler that comes up with a plan to build all these technologies where they don't really need to be wired together. So the idea is that like,

I don't know if you need to configure something like Astro or whatever to work with TypeScript, I don't think you need to. I think it does it. But just as an example, but you wouldn't if the code wasn't TypeScript by the time Astro got around to compiling it. Like, let's say it was already JavaScript, then it doesn't matter.

It's like, what if we dealt with your SAS first, and then it was CSS by the time that the next technology needed to touch it, then you don't need to configure anything because it's already been boiled down to its primitive. We think we can do that with all technology. All technologies. Could you use that compiler outside of CodePen context?

Yeah, absolutely. It probably won't be open source on day one, but only for a time constraint, not because we're trying to keep it as proprietary technology. I would love to ship it. I'd love to just have it be on NPM and you just grab it, you know,

and it kind of will need to be at some point when you. Yeah, I mean, that makes it way more valuable, I think, for both on and off CodeBand. What's the name of it? Good question, Adam. I don't know yet. We have a bunch of really cool. Rupert.

Rupert AI. Yeah, we have... Lock it in. I had an awesome name. Yeah, Rupert is actually... Yeah, that's nice. That's actually a pretty good AI name, Rupert. I had what I thought was a name

I was really going to push for. I was like, oh, this is sweet. I really like it. And then something shipped pretty notably in our very tight industry with a similar name. And I was like, well, that's out. You can't wait too long. No, Jared,

why would you think that? Was it syntax? It's totally Bolt. Is it? I called it. That's how tight-knit it is. I guessed it on my first guess. It's a good name. It's like a little fast dog on the movie and stuff. But didn't Bolt have like a there was like a financial company called Bolt that kind of t dog on the movie and stuff. But didn't Bolt have like a, there was like a financial company

called Bolt that kind of tarnished the name of Bolt. Yeah, they've come and gone probably. They have come and gone. That's a, it's a good name, but we'll come up

with something good. But yeah, the compiler does need a kind of its own name and, you know, just going to sleep on it for a little bit. Super Bolt.

Double Bolt. Better than Bolt. Well, it has fun. It really is kind of a nice name. I mean, congratulations to them. That product is actually

super duper cool. Yeah, it is cool. Bolt.new we're referring to if you want to check it out from. Well, it has other connotations too.

Like you can bolt things together, which is exactly what we're trying to do. Or bolt things on later. Maybe you could call it Lego.

That might work. Just call it Lego. Yeah. work. Just call it Lego. Yeah. You can Lego things together. They won't have any trouble with that at all. This product unavailable in Sweden. Or anywhere else in which they have jurisdiction. You've got to spell it with all caps too.

Exactly. And you can't pluralize it at all. Not to change the subject too deeply, but Chris, you and I had a short conversation while at All Things Open. Yeah, we did. And I believe, if I recall correctly, you were telling me about something where you had written something fully and y'all didn't ship it at all. What did every, in regards to CodePen 2.0, like you had done something massive and you just didn't ship it. You spent a lot of time doing something. Am I incorrect on that?

I'm trying to think. I feel like I've done that a number of times. But what would I have told you about? You said it was a big deal. It was like thousands and thousands of dollars you spent doing something and it just didn't ship. Oh, that's right. You know what I bet it was? One time we were going to run a conference.

That's right. We were going to do an event called CodePen World's Fair. And we had hired people and we had done a bunch of custom design work and booked venues and really moved far along on it. And then it just kind of, you know, there's lots of details involved, but it was kind of a, a cold feet situation. Like it didn't feel like it was going to come together and in a way that we thought was going to like really be as cool as we wanted. And I think throwing like an embarrassing conference can be detrimental to what you're trying to do, you know? So there was a, we were willing to lose the money to not embarrass ourselves. I don't know what made us talk about that.

We only talked for like 15 minutes at most. Well, we were at a conference. Yeah, you're probably talking about conferences. You were sharing all your secrets. I liked it. I was like, tell me more. Yeah, maybe. I don't know if I've ever really talked about that, but yeah, I was, I was, you know, we had like the coolest website you've ever seen for, cause you know, we're going to do it in Chicago and Chicago had the famously through the, the, the world's fair at one time, the white city and all that stuff. Oh yeah. The devil in the windy city. Yeah, we're going to kind of play off that a bit.

That's cool. But you can imagine, right? Like, oh, we're going to have, you know, we're going to have screens, you know, floor to ceiling and we'll have the creators of some of the most amazing visual stuff on CodePen coming to do it. And we even had asked and had a bunch of yeses from those types of people and they were going to build special exhibits for it and that kind of thing. And so sorry to those people, but I think we canceled it early enough that we didn't like waste people's time

too madly. So not having to reveal, obviously if there's embarrassing or specific details that matter, but like, when, what made you finally pull the plug on that stuff? Cause that's a hard thing to do is actually just stop when you're so, I mean, sunk cost fallacy is very strong. Like, was there a stop when you're so, I mean, sunk cost fallacy is very strong. Like,

was there a moment where you're like, you know what, we're not doing it. Yeah, well, we had three founders at the time.

So it was a conversation. It was. And everybody kind of, I think we coalesced on it pretty quickly because there was some, some nervousness. And I think I was probably

the most for it just because it was, that's kind of up my alley you know the other two guys aren't as you know conference forward as I am you know but I you know I also didn't want to embarrass myself I kind of don't remember all the the exact details that made us think that but you know the ambition I think was felt that's why I was okay with it in the end it felt like too high you know if you're you're like, we're going to, I don't know, spend,

you know, $22,000 on this exhibit are like, we so sure. I don't actually know any of these people that say yes, that yes, I'm going to build a experiential virtual art exhibit on this thing. You know, like it's rolling the dice till the day of the conference.

High risk. And how do they even practice doing it? You know, it's not like I dice till the day of the conference. High risk. And how do they even practice doing it? You know, it's not like I can ship them. I don't know. There was too much like worry, I guess. I'd rather be in a position as a company because when we killed it, we said, hey, when we have money to burn as a company, let's do it. You know, but we just kind of didn't at the time. And if we burned that much money kind of for nothing,

that would have been dangerous. Now, I don't know if any company has money to burn, especially these days. But in those days, it felt like it. If you're MailChimp, they were setting money on fire for a while. And then it worked for them. Yeah, that's right. Mostly.

Have you guys ever considered a shop-talk-conf? Yeah, I think it's come up. I don't know how serious we ever got. Yeah, it would probably just be like six people in a bar in Atlanta. You know, it sounds cool. But, you know, I don't, you know, it'd be fun. I think it's just a, we, I think where we've enjoyed is occasionally, I don't know if y'all have had this experience, but like a conference invites the podcast out to like put on an after show or something like that.

Those have been great. Like we've met shop of maniacs from coast to coast there and it's been good times, but I think it's, you know, I think that's probably the better way for a podcast is just to be a bolt on to a, a funded conference. A lot less work that's for sure

yeah yeah yeah and you just provide entertainment which you know i think i assume people listen to this for information or entertainment you know so we don't know why honestly we're still wondering it's one of those two people have to drive that's kind you know, took a hit in the pandemic, but it's fine. We're coming back, baby. The key, though, is recording it. Right, Jared? Recording it. You do want to record when you put on a cool show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Apropos of nothing, Adam brings that up. Yes. We're not throwing anybody under any sort of buses, but we did something really cool at a conference. And it just, you know, they admitted and it's like, this happens but they water under the bridge i think it was actually their first time back post pandemic too so they had like a lower key av team potentially yeah not that they were not capable it was just like it was everybody was sort of like getting back into a groove and uh we were in a slot where it's not normally recorded.

It was like an after party kind of slot. Highly entertaining, as you could probably tell. Great crowd, great interaction. We played a game show. Yeah. Spectacular. The best edition of our front end feud ever

because it came down to the final answer. Nice. And the final answer had the board was down to like four of the five. I think it was Firebird too. Firebird was the fun. Was it Thunderbird? Thunderbird.

Mozilla Thunderbird was the answer. I can't remember what the question is. Something about email clients. Right. And it was like back and forth and they're all guessing these obscure email clients. And then somebody pulled out Mozilla Thunderbird for the win. And then I go up to the AV people afterwards and I'm like, that was great. When can I get it?

And he's like, oh, I didn't know you guys wanted to record that. I still remember that conversation. We were IRL entertainment recorded for a podcast. You guys wanted to record that? I'm like, well, why do you think I just did this big show? Yeah. Just for, anyways. That's awful.

I'm sorry. You remember Thunderbird? They had an awesome story like a year or two ago where people talk about funding open source stuff a lot in this industry, you know. Oh, yeah. They had like too much money or something, didn't they? Oh, yeah. It was wild.

Because, you know, you see like stuff like Veet and stuff do pretty good. But for the most part, open source stuff doesn't make that much money. And, you know, and when Veet doing good, it's like, oh, we get, you know, there's like $100,000 a month or I don't know, maybe that's even high for them. I forget what the exact numbers are but all Thunderbird did was put like a little interstitial that's like hey we don't ask for money very much

but we could use your donations and they just got buckets of money so much money just millions of dollars just came in you're like

holy cow wow I guess a lot of people like their email client jeepers well listeners we don't often ask you for money

but just this once it is the end of the year it's patreon.com slash the underscore real underscore changelog that's right oh we have to see adam said that's right adam that is not right that is not true don't give that person money okay if that is a real you real, you're going to clip that and make a killing. I just came up with two businesses in this podcast. Oh, that's good. That's pretty good.

Yeah. I think you could do good. You know, I think at the time I was, well, we started this episode talking about, I don't know, making money on the internet and websites and whatnot.

And that you always do. I'm sure in this show, people, if you're just listening, start to finish of this published episode out there, there's probably been a little interstitial already with like one of the two of you talking to some CTO or CEO of some company about some product or something. That's just kind of how you all roll, which I always really liked, you know, and wanted to steal that to some degree.

Although so far I've found it hard to get people to agree to it. So really for you for forcing the issue. That would be Adam. He's the one that organizes that whole side of what we do. It's pretty cool. But don't you think you could lift that and do it at a conference too? Be like, you could really reduce the, you know, I think it'd be easier to get a sponsor for a conference if you're like,

would you like to come not only just sponsor it and like, whatever, bring your t-shirts, but also sit on stage with me and talk to me about stuff. Could be done. Sometimes that's cringe. You got to time box it. You know?

Yeah. It's like, we're going to talk to the CEO of revenue dynamics at whatever. You're like, Oh, I'm out. I didn't realize this was happening in the front row.

I think the key there is it's got to be editorialized by the person conducting the interview. It cannot be editorialized or agreed to or you can't share the questions in advance or give them insider secrets to what's being discussed and they have to be, to some degree, willing, able, and

somewhat vulnerable. I would say almost fully vulnerable. That's hard to get anybody to agree to, honestly. It is hard, yeah. The title thing works. I hate to say it to all the dev rels out there because, you know, God bless, you're doing good work. But when they send the dev rel to do it, it's like, oh yeah, they're doing the thing

that they're literally paid to do. Whereas if you get the CTO or the CEO, it's like, Ooh, they really have made time specially to be here to do this. Yeah. That is not their normal thing. Yeah.

That's why I think the way we do some of the, like we don't always get CEOs, but I would say 80% of the time we get CEOs involved in these ad spots. That's why I think it works well, because when you get C-level or founder level agreement and participation in not so much shilling, but sharing the story, it's why I always think it's like, this is your story. Let's share your story. Yeah. That's where you get, you know, the true quality and the, the, the pass through. Right. Not the abrupt, oh, this is marketing. You know,

I try to make it anti-marketing. And that's when you get the Michael Scott win-win-win because if it's interesting content and they're actually pointing out something that you don't know about that's a cool service,

why not? It's still Adam talking to a guy about something interesting which is what the show is. And then obviously it's a win for the company because they get

a decent piece of content hopefully better than decent. It doesn't trigger my fast fast forward figure as much. As much. Yeah. Now we still trigger it if you've heard that particular one. And obviously they're hard to produce. And so we don't have like a bunch of them per.

Yeah. I mean, that's a challenge for us. So like sometimes you'll hear the same one a few times and that's going to trigger you to fast forward. But that's fine because like you've already heard it, right? Yeah. You've heard it and that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Once you get big enough, I, I saw it once or I think my wife pointed it out to me. She was, it was like a, whatever it was like a Malcolm Gladwell one or whatever. So his numbers are super high and he

just, he would just sell them as like a block. I remember, remember when, uh, what's the new like cell phone speed technology, like LTE 5 or whatever it is. You know, like they're really, there's a keyword I'm flubbing on here. 5G, I don't know. 5G, I guess that's what it is. Yeah, that was like, it's better than Wi-Fi kind of thing.

And he had like the, whatever, the CTO of Sprint or something on to do just like a four block. But they were all four different. And it actually was kind of cool. And they're, you know, they're like two minutes long or something like you do, you know, but it were all four different. And it actually was kind of cool. And they're like two minutes long or something like you do. But it was kind of like,

what industries will it enable? It's like, there's a rural doctor that it's helping because they can use these technologies places that they couldn't before. And it was like a good ad spot. But because the numbers are so high, they only used it once.

It's on one show you know right that's harder to do and were they still interstitial in the other show or was it a standalone show that was just that no it was interstitial okay cool yeah i don't know that's where we draw the line because we obviously have people who would love to just come on the show and pay to be on the show totally we get that too and we will just never do that and we've had to say no to lots of opportunities because of that i was gonna going to say like, y'all seem, I like the CEO like ad spot because it is that middle ground of like, oh man, can my boss come on your show? You know? Yeah. And those emails are just so tiresome. You know, it's like, you just hired a marketing company,

you're blasting this out. Like you don't, you just want the, like a, the SEO and then be the, like, you know, the bullet point on some resume or whatever. Like we went on 10,000 podcasts. Like I just, I like it's pay to play, but I think it is sort of this, like, well, if you are a CEO, you care about the product, you like are committing your life. Maybe you're just in it for the money, but like, you're doing this for a reason. Like tell us why, like why, what, what makes this thing good that you've made and you're selling, presumably you have money if you paid to be on the show, but like,

so what are other people finding value in, you know, like it should be a slam dunk story, you know, You're selling it for us, Dave. know like it should be a slam dunk story you know you're selling the four of us dave i like it keep going well i also this is my grand thesis to our own audience yeah to podcast listeners i think every podcast i'm a podcast listener i assume everyone here is just yeah but like i still use products i heard on podcasts in 2006. A hundred percent. Like there is something about how podcasts go into straight into your ear holes or in your car ears and just, they make you feel good. And so like there's apps I use, you know, I've tried out and stuff like that just purely because they sponsored a podcast.

And I don't think anyone, I think everyone who listens to podcasts has had that experience. And so I just think of it as also like, I don't know, it's like advertising plus jet fuel, you know, it's like back to this, like single ad converts way better. I think a podcast converts way better. How many mattresses do you guys own that came from a podcast? I, at least 50% of our mattresses came from a podcast, you know? Gosh. Like, case closed. At least 50%. Maybe more. Who knows?

Maybe more. I literally don't know how we found out about the other two. So, you know. Yeah. Could you imagine where, let's say, the CEO of Chevrolet or GMC, because those are sort of like the same product, or Ford did a real- Let's do Jeep for no reason. No reason, just Jeep.

Let's pick Jeep. Yeah. He actually got fired. Is that right? Oh, okay. I was like, I don't know the reason. Well, could you imagine where they did a truly authentic ad spend

in the way we produce CEO-driven ad spots that truly spoke to an audience that wasn't here's the spin here's the thing you know here's how things actually work with like let's say cars for example or anything else even mattresses here's why the technology in this bed is revolutionary and it changed the way you sleep kind of thing yeah that's cool I could imagine that would be good and it it's hopefully they live and breathe it. So it'd be so easy for them to do. The only reason you couldn't is because they're busy running a company. Right. And they hire people to do that kind of thing. And they, that's an acceptable reason in my book.

Yeah, it is. Yeah. There's a certain size of company that this works well with. And I think Ford is bigger than that size, you know, where it's almost more important that it's somebody who's founder or just like living and breathing the company. During the Lightning launch though, that would have been relevant. Like during a brand new product line, like the Lightning truck, that had been relevant.

Not an everyday, hey. Oh yeah, and I'm not saying it's not relevant. I'm saying, is that the person you want to talk to necessarily? Well, I think that's where you get the authenticity. It's like, if the CEO is in it to win it, they're one of the great candidates for it. Versus like, who else would be listenable?

I would imagine the org structure of Ford though, is that there's some other person running the Lightning division and the CEO's like- Yeah, maybe the product designer or the product leader of Lightning. Yeah, I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm just saying there's certain sides where it's like, the CEO has to be pretty abstracted away from some of the nitty-gritty

that interests us, like the thing that's actually going to nerd-snipe you. And they may or may not have that. That's true. If it was for this podcast, maybe there's some, you know, the person who designed the user interface for the thing would be probably even more interesting to talk to. Absolutely. Potentially.

Yeah. And the beauty is like, let the platform decide a little bit what's going to work. Because I think when the, I'm sure you've seen these type of spots internally where it's like, you know, we have the CEO here to do real fireside chat stuff. And it's just like too polished, you know, like they're trying to do it but they can't like they're too they're too smooth internally right feel good yeah they're so well trained that it just always sounds shilly yeah exactly on always chill well i don't even know how we got here but are you listening tech companies do this what's up friends I'm here with a new friend of ours over at Assembly AI, founder and CEO Dylan Fox.

Dylan, tell me about Universal One. This is the newest, most powerful speech AI model to date. You released this recently. Tell me more. So Universal One is our flagship industry leading model for speech to text and various other speech understanding tasks. So it was about a year long effort that really is the culmination of like the years that we've spent building infrastructure and tooling at assembly to even train large scale speech AI models. It was trained on about 12 and a half million hours of voice data, multilingual, super wide range of domains and sources of audio data. So it's super robust model.

We're seeing developers use it for extremely high accuracy, low cost, super fast speech to text and speech understanding tasks within their products, within automations, within workflows that they're building at their companies or within their products. Okay. Constantly updated speech AI models at your fingertips. Well, at your API fingertips, that is. A good next step is to go to their playground. You can test out their models for free

right there in the browser, or you can get started with a $50 credit at assemblyai.com slash practical AI. Again, that's assemblyai.com slash practical AI. What are you guys' ambitions with Shop Talk? What do you guys do it for? Why do you do it still? You've been going for a long time.

What are your ambitions? Where would you like it to go, if anywhere? And what's exciting still about it for you two? You got to see where this long, slow decline goes. Dave, you're looking very contemplative. Yeah. No,

uh, Chris summed it up. No. Um, the, uh, I think, um,

you know, we threw like the, whatever the gully of advertising, the, the drought of advertising, we've actually switched to almost 100% community funded through our Discord. And that's been really awesome. Like our Discord is really active, a lot of nice people in there. Great, wonderful people, the best people. So the Shabba Maniacs have really rallied to kind of make the podcast happen over the last few years. I mean, Chris and

I could obviously chip some bucks at it, but just you know, just editing and stuff, you know, adds up transcripts adds up, you know, I don't think we're in the, we're just going to hand it to AI yet. You know, I don't think that's even in our current plans, but, um, you know, so the costs kind of add up, but then, you know, I, I don't know, it's, it, for me, it's just turned into a great chance to talk to my buddy Chris every week. So that's been like, I'll in my career where I could say, oh man, I just talked to the person who wrote that thing you're talking about. And here's what they said, you know, it's kind of a, maybe a bit of a douchebag move, but it is like super useful to like talk with people and pick their brain about why something exists like you know we had the guy from google thomas steiner from google who does like the ai in chrome thing and that was super like wow this is

kind of a weird new thing that's not documented very well and so we got to talk to him about it so you know stuff like that is is yeah it's like a bit of a cheat code for staying on top of the industry without too much work. I get to benefit from Dave's insights and people write in. It's not so much of a lift. We've made so many choices over the years of like, what's the easiest possible thing we can do to keep doing this show? We can have somebody else edit it. We can not change the website very much.

We can just stay on this host instead of change around you know like it's really it's to the point where we just throw dave and i throw something on the calendar and we both show up in a riverside room exactly like this we use the same app and then i forget about it like our guy chris ends from lemon productions shout out chris just he like logs into Riverside extracts the audio edits it all together puts the mp3 on our host goes into WordPress gives the show a title writes the links all this and and then hits publish on the day that or schedules it for the day it's supposed to be published I literally do nothing you know I work with the advertisers when we have one which is not very much these days because it's just has fallen through and I don't hustle for it because it's like, I just

don't have the time for it at the moment. Even our transcript of Lady Tina Pham has access to the WordPress site. So when she's done with the transcript, she logs in, paste it into the right text area and hit save on the show. No, I hear from nobody. The bill arrives in our email and I click the pay bill button and that's it. And so that's helped. Like it's not, when I come up with things that I need to cut in my life to reduce stress, this is pretty low on the list because it doesn't impart much stress. It might even be a stress relief in a way.

Right. Feed you back gives you uh gives you a friend to connect with and a network to right to keep connected with i suppose you know to further connect and also i would imagine it's got to be great to give somebody who has less light shined on them a light shined on them you know give somebody the spotlight yeah it's increasingly rare isn't it it is rare, but there's still some out there. I mean, like, you know, like recently the Departure Mono font, like they don't need a lot of extra fanfare,

but I thought that was a really cool show to do. It was about a pixelized font, a pixel-based font that was just super cool that I didn't really know of just loosely before the show. And now I'm a huge fan of the Partramano font all the work they put into it to open source it as well

it was really cool that's a great I think I missed that one I would love to watch that Dave and I have had some good shows like that in the last year for sure

where like a tiny little spark turns into like let's just see if we can get them you know and we do we've been chasing this idea of niche app builders like somebody who builds an

app for really niche specific purpose. Like Watson comes to mind, he has a disability that affects his muscle movement, but he builds a bunch of apps to just like make his day better or like, so him and his brother can play games and stuff like that. And it's like, awesome. Like, and so it's just these like home cooked, not going to be super famous apps. We had the guy from Cracking the,

who wrote Cracking the Cryptics Sudoku app. Like if you've seen that YouTube channel. Have you ever seen this YouTube channel? It's, I fell into it for a long time. I still watch it to this day at night. What's it called? It's two british dudes cracking the cryptic it may never grab you so this is as niche as niche can be it's 40 50 year

old men solving sudoku on youtube they're just these really endearing british guys and they solve sudoku puzzles but they it's like they're charming while they do it and it really requires some big brain energy to get through these things. You know, you're watching them use like, like just the gears in their head, just churning to figure out what's going on in this puzzle. Because each puzzle is different.

Each one has different rules. When you say Sudoku, you think, you know, the numbers one through nine in the boxes or whatever. Once in a while, they'll do a classic Sudoku puzzle like that. But in this channel, they call it variant Sudoku.

Each one has a bit of a different rule set. So they have to learn a new rule set and then churn through it. I find it helps me go to sleep, honestly. You know, like it's not so engaging that I, a little bit of that, although I don't get the tingles from this, but I do generally get the tingles. But I do like them. Anyway, it took a bit of programming to make this happen. Because having a Sudoku puzzle

that can be programmatically solved in a web browser, and then it can tell you if you have the right answer or not, required an app. It required somebody to build this app. But because each one has different rules, it's actually pretty weird and complicated. And the community that it took to make this app. But because each one has different rules, it's actually pretty weird and complicated.

And the like community that it took to make this thing happen is just surprisingly complex story. And we had that guy on the show and he's about as quirky as a person can be, you know,

and it ended up being an interesting show. So the person that was from this YouTube channel came on? Nope. No, they're a little too big. I don't think we could get

the cracking the cryptic guys. It's the developer who made the app that they use on the show. Yeah. He was a personality in and of himself. Like, he's like. My God, if I met Simon at a party, I would drop dead. I think he's so cool. Yeah.

I was going to say, this is a niche, but it's also 621,000 subscribers niche. Yeah, it's a niche that hits, I'll say. Right. It's kind of deep. That's cool. I'm a fan of that too, like inviting out to your show that might not even be developer world necessarily. It's like developer adjacent. What comes to mind is recently I had Dennis E. Taylor.

Are you all a fan of We Are Legion, We Are Bob, the Bobaverse series? It's an audible audiobook series. Oh my gosh. It shines up my alley. Oh, Dave, it's right up your alley, bro. I've seen your book list and it's so far up your alley. You should have listened to this by now.

All right. So I had Dennis E. Taylor on this podcast and we just talked about the Bobaverse series. And we obviously have a Zulip now, not a Slack. And so we have a community similar to Discord with you all, except we... What did you call it? A Zillow? Zulip.

Zulip? Zulip. It's open source, threaded team chat. You hear the hard P at the end there? Zulip. Okay. Zulip. Okay.

So we used to use Slack, and now we're Zulip. And it's threaded conversation for teams, essentially. It's also open source. But we had Dennis on the show. We talked about the Bobaverse series. Now, Dennis is also a retired programmer, so there is at least that as a connection point. But it's also an amazing sci-fi series. This guy is he's he's phenomenal with his writing five books deep on the bobover series you will have months of listening slash reading if you get into this uh if you're

brand new to it and just talk to dennis yeah that's awesome that's cool you know we've we had uh heavy spoilers paul from heavy spoilers on the podcast before we talked about tenant the movie nice because tenant was such a cool movie. And this was not the main show. What was that at the time? Was it? We call that show Backstage. Backstage, yes.

Which was kind of a precursor to Change Logging to Friends, which was kind of just like us talking about what we want to and not feeling like we have to do an interview with a software developer every single episode. And that plus like some of the stuff we do at JS Party and all these other things came together to create our Friday talk show, which you all are currently on right now. That's right.

And so that was on backstage. It makes me think about, it was probably a good show just because you're so passionate, and it's a story that you wanted to tell and a person you wanted to talk to, and I'm sure everyone enjoyed it just for that reason alone, even if they had no idea who they were. It's uncovered a plethora of babaverse series

fans and would-be fans inside of our community oh nice and so like now we have this new connection point in our community not just like oh what language or whatever this or that it's now the connection point of similarity and likes with sci-fi and plausible science fiction and this whole conversation around babaverse and authoring books and stuff like that what's that series of books where like they live on the back of a turtle or something moana no spoilers no i'm just no the um anyway there was it was something like there's like a book called like nights. Somebody's going to know what it is. But anyway, Terry something is the author. I was out at a bar after a conference with Jason Langsdorf and his partner and some other people.

Maybe Sarah Drasner was there. And they just started talking about this book series, which is like 55 books deep. And I just was like, I've never heard of this. But they're all like, oh, yeah. Did you remember what you would call it? Like the, you know, book 23, blah, blah, blah. And I just, it was 23. Yeah. It was like, um, anyway, I'll let me Terry Pratchett. Discworld. Discworld. Yes. Discworld. There you go. Terry Pratchett. Yeah. Anyway, there's a, like, it's a 150 something books or something. I don't even know. But then like, I just, you know, I stumbled into a group where everyone had read it, but me,

and I felt like so out of place, but it was like, but it's just, it's cool when you stumble into that, you know, you're just like, dude, these people love this. This is weird. Like, this is cool. This makes it so much cooler. This is people I like. Yeah, you should chase it, you know? I think that's okay to podcast. I used to get salty when, like, Radiolab would do an episode about politics or something. You'd be like, you're the science show. But it's like, no, I'm just chasing something that they found interesting, you know?

Or 99% Invisible did something outside of design and architecture or whatever, but I've loosened up my stance on it, you know? Just chase it. Do what you want to do. We definitely don't do it on the monthly. It's more like whenever it might come up or if it really makes sense. Like I plan to have a chef on the podcast in 2025. My favorite.

One of my favorite chefs. Only because I cook alongside him. Frank Proto is his name, by the way. When you say alongside him. Literally, side by side, Jared. I'm just kidding. No. He's on YouTube and you're cooking, right? Yeah, well, I think

I saw what I liked about it. It's this series from Epicurious. And it's like something something 101. And it's like this hard recipes it could be as simple as scrambled eggs like scrambled eggs 101 how to make the best scrambled eggs how to make the best chicken how to easiest way to fry chicken kind of thing like you pick your thing that you think is kind of like generally hard or you've never really mastered it or it takes multiple steps and this chef and it's Frank and many other chefs on Epicurious, this channel on YouTube, breaking down, you know, pasta 101.

How to like really get the best pasta? What the steps are? How much salt to put in the water? How much water to put, you know, obviously in the pot? You know, at what point do you put it in? You know, just little subtle things. Are you going to make like heavy-handed metaphors for programming stuff? No.

Well, I mean, probably not. Maybe. Probably just focus on the cooking, but yeah. Are you going to draw across anything at all? Or is it going to just be, you know what? I like your cooking show channel,

dude. I think it was more like, could you get more people that are audience curious to cook? Okay. Like things that are generally seemingly hard. Maybe you subscribe to factor cause you heard on a podcast and that's easy cause you just get it and put it in the microwave. That's where they send you the meal,

right? Yeah. This is where they like send you a non frozen, you know, freshly cooked meal. This is not an ad by the way, but we have been sponsored by them before. And so it's fresh on my mind on how that works.

But like, you know, I enjoy first principles cooking like personally. So I feel like, you know, the, the full episode idea hasn't percolated in terms of, like, what it's going to be.

But I know I'm going to talk to Frank because he said yes. And we'll just talk about cooking. And it could be as simple as, like, hey, I'm a chef and anybody can do these kind of things if you just break it down to simplistic forms. So, like, step by step, you know,

keep it simple, one-on-one style. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like, especially developers, most of us live, like, a sedentary lifestyle, you know, keep it simple. One-on-one style. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, like especially developers, most of us live like a sedentary lifestyle, you know, like a lot of us are in our twenties, not me, no one here in this chat room, but on this particular call, but you know, whatever, excuse me, aging out, excuse young, I think, but like, you know, in the, in the, in the words of Chris got to see where this long slow decline goes yeah yeah but like i remember being in my 20s i didn't know nothing about food it was like if i made a bowl of spaghetti it was a freaking miracle like how that happened you know i mean like you know

so i was like an idiot about food you know even just like you know you're talking talking to a room of like developers, like, you know, probably not notoriously good at self-care. So like what, uh, what's the first thing they need to know about, you know, making food. Now you make me think we have to get that. Who's that military guy who like runs forever? Oh yeah. Jack LaLanne?

No. What's his name, Adam? He's like tow trucks with his mouth. I know his name his name so it's it's like right on the top he's like you know the hardest working man in the world he like destroyed his own body chris goggins goggins something goggins anyways not chris somebody on here to like you know motivate all of us to exercise dave goggins david goggy see there you go chris or dave pick a name he's outside of our league he's like chris's simon Simon and who's Simon's partner on the Sudoku side? Mark.

Simon and Mark. We can never get David Goggins. He'd be like, why would I go on a developer podcast? Let me pitch you this. A fake David Goggins. Okay. David Rupins. And he's a motivational speaker.

I know he's very famous on the circuit, you know, and he comes and talks to everybody. How long could he stay in character? Ooh, well, so. He's getting old out here. Two minutes really is kind of the max. It'll be a short episode. It's a short show.

I'd be down. But that's all the inspiration you need from David, what'd I call him? Rupins. Rupins. Rupins. Yeah. To be motivated for a whole life. Just two minutes with David Rupins.

Did you really read all these books in 2024, Dave? Yes, sir. Yeah. 48 books thus far. Yeah, I'm in the Book a Week Club. Been in there for a few years now. It looks like a miracle, but it in there for a few years now. You know, it, it looks like a miracle, but it's not, it's really ADHD. Like I can't do that. I reward myself by doing the dishes with the podcast or a audio book. And so that's how it happens. So is it mostly

audio books or you mostly audio books? It's, you know, I, I used to read a lot of paper or Kindle books, you know, but there'll be a lot of paper or kindle books you know but there'll be a lot of graphic novels in there too which are generally paper but used to read a lot of paper or like kindle books but i like train my brain to do that before bed so i read like one page and fall asleep that's how i like like pavloved myself into that uh so audiobooks i'm pretty successful with so yeah nice nice do you rock the 2x or oh for sure man oh god yeah in a week right oh yeah i'm not a normie when it comes to and listen to podcasts holy cow do you guys make a lot of dishes then you must i don't know how man i i i every day of my life i ask my, how many cups should a family of four

use in a single day? And they're like, I don't know, four. And I'm like, yeah. Uh, why are there 23 right here? So, and then I had this whole revelation the other day, I'll share it with y'all. You know, the story of Sisyphus, we always use that like analogy of like rolling the boulder up the hill i didn't we recently got stone plates and that analogy hit so hard because they're heavy no we literally take these stone plates like earthware plates down and then i wash them and then i put them back up and then they come down again and And I just was like, this is, I am Sisyphus. I, uh, the morality story is true. I just, uh, you know, spend the rest of my life. It's a whole different podcast to have that conversation, Dave, but I like it.

What kind of podcast is it? A negative podcast. Like where life just repeats. Oh yeah. It is. I am just in a, uh, a groundhog's day of pushing these boulders up into my kitchen cabinet. I washed this yesterday. Yeah.

I put that back yesterday. And here it is again, dirty, needing my attention. Thankfully, I have this book. My favorite is when we go out, like we're gone, and then we even went out for dinner, and there's still a huge pile of dishes to wash. How did that happen? Where did they come from? Who's in charge of these dishes? Here's a phrase I uttered this morning at my children.

And I love my children to death, but I uttered this phrase. Why do you guys suck so bad? That's hard. That's maybe on the harsher edge. They pushed me. They pushed me. They pushed me to that by not, they didn't run the dishes before bed. Like that's like one of the things is like somebody starts the dishwasher. We talk about, it's a button press.

You just press the button. Oh man, you're on a higher level than me. I'm like, if you see trash, throw away trash. If you make trash, also throw away trash. That's where I'm at. Oh yeah, trash, also throw away trash. That's where I'm at. Oh, yeah. We got that going as well. Oh, my God.

I stepped over a piece of trash yesterday and I got it. Oh, man. Oh, hammer. Oh, who gave it to you? Don't do that. Don't do that. So we have this thing around my house, trash on the counter. So much so that I've developed a song.

Trash on the counter counter trash in the street. It's just my song. You just sing that whenever you see trash? Is that a CCR song? I'll bust. Yeah. It's like that. It's,

it's, it's like that. Yeah. I'll bust it out because like, I have to find joy in this repeating. Oh my gosh, who did this again? So you don't yell.

Why do you guys suck so bad? No. Yeah. You gotta have something else to say. I'm going to start singing that. I need a song. The next time the dishes haven't been cleaned you know it's like you know the cutting of the edge of a bag that you have to open up to take the thing out it's like that thing is now on the counter or this other thing and i'm blaming nobody my wife listens to this podcast here and there at

least the clips this may be a clip who knows i'm gonna clip this part and send it to her and i'm not talking trash about anybody in my house, but like, OMG. And I do it too, though. So I'm part of the trash on the counter community. I will make this offense. Okay. So you're part of the problem, as is Chris, who clearly just stepped over some trash. I am the problem.

Yes. I didn't mean to be throwing anybody under the bus, but myself here. You made that clear, Chris. I think you've acquitted yourself. Yeah. Kids socks are a problem. My problem my socks well that's a lifestyle i'm done with these socks to the corner yeah good stuff always like why are these socks right here that's where i put them that's why they're there yeah yeah that's where I put them. That's why they're there. That's where I put them. Well, I think we've experienced now the long, slow decline. Anybody listening to this part is like,

is there any more good stuff in this show? The answer is no. No, we've applied your software development methodology to this conversation somehow, you know, refactoring. I don't know, cloneliness. But, if they have time, I do have a plus plus topic.

Do you guys have time for one more, just for our closest friends? Hit it. Hit it, Adam. Should we say bye friends first? Bye friends. Bye friends. Well, it's always good to podcast with your friends.

And what better friends than Chris and Dave? Long-time podcasters, long-time friends. First time on ChangeLogging Friends. That's awesome. Yes, there's a bonus. That means if you're a ChangeLog Plus Plus subscriber, it's better. You can enjoy an extended version of this conversation. And all you have to do is go to changelog.com slash plus plus.

Yes, it's better. 10 bucks a month, a hundred bucks a year. Drop the ads, get closer to that cool changelog medal, bonus content, directly support us, free stickers in the mail. And of course, a generous thank you. So thank you. Once again, changelog.com slash plus plus. I do want to mention something new from us, something coming in 2025. There's a big change. I'll link to a blog post, but I want to mention CPU.fm, is extending to a whole new network of world-class developer pods from your friends and extended friends at Changelog. Launching in 2025, CPU.fm. Get notified when we launch.

Go there now. Of course, we couldn't do this without awesome sponsors and partners. Century, Fly, Coder, Assembly AI. Check them out. Century.io. Use our code CHANGELOG and get $100 off the team plan. So cool.

And our friends at Fly. Fly.io. That is the home of changelog.com. And to our friends over at Coder. Coder.com. Pairs well with Fly. And Assembly AI. AssemblyAI.com. To the beat freak in residence, those beats are banging.

Thank you, Breakmaster Cylinder. You are awesome. Okay, if you're a Change Love Plus Plus member, stay tuned. If not, hey, we still love you. But this is it. The show's done. All right, we'll see you on Monday. It's better.

This is almost interview. Dave, you could chime in here, but I think you're, I don't know if you have this vantage point, considering I don't think you're part of CodePen. Oh, it's a CodePen question? It is a CodePen question. So, have you ever been, Chris, have you ever been Dribbble curious? Because CodePens are a lot like Dribbles, you know? And you can go and explore CodePens, but it's not quite the way you can explore Dribbble to find a designer? Well, that's a great question. Not only curious, but jealous in some ways. We even were, you remember that the two original founders were Dan Cederholm and Rich Thornett. Rich worked with us at CodePen for a while post-Dribbble. Is that right? To like apply some, some Dribbble magic to, to a few things. And it's. And it wasn't as clear as like,

we should just do what we do.