The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - State of the "log" 2018 (Interview)

Episode Date: December 19, 2018

On this year's "State of the 'log'" episode we’re going behind the scenes to look back at 2018 as we prepare for 2019 and onward. We talk through our most popular episodes, most controversial episodes, and even some of our personal favorites. We also catch you up on some company level updates here at Changelog Media. We hired Tim Smith earlier this year as our Senior Producer, we retired Request for Commits, started some new shows...

Bandwidth for Changelog is provided by Fastly. Learn more at Fastly.com. We move fast and fix things here at Changelog because of Rollbar. Check them out at Rollbar.com and we're hosted on Linode servers. Head to Linode.com slash Changelog. All right, welcome back everyone. This is the Changelog, a podcast featuring the hackers, the leaders, and the innovators of software development. I'm Adam Stachowiak, Editor-in-Chief here at Changelog. On today's State of the Log episode, we're going behind the scenes to look at 2018. We talked through our most popular episodes, our most controversial episodes,

and even some of our personal favorites. We also update you on some company-level updates here at Changelog Media. We hired Tim Smith earlier this year as our Senior Producer. Worked out fabulously. We retired a show. We started some new shows. Lots to cover in this episode. But before we officially head into the year end, I want to take a moment and slow down and thank you for your time and thank you for your attention. It means the world to us. We are very hard to produce this podcast and we do it for you, the listeners. So thank you. Please be safe of the holiday break. Enjoy your time with family and friends and loved ones.

And we'll see you again in 2019. All right. Welcome to State of the Law. We were actually debating whether that's a cool name or not, and we kind of went through being a good changelog or a changelog, and, you know. Now we're just the log. The log, yeah. State of the Log. Hopefully do this once a year at the end of the year for a good end cap to a year.

Essentially looking back on, you know, where we've been. Jared, you know I'm a huge fan of retrospectives, right? I love retrospectives. Isn't the Agile, Scrum, Retro stand-up, isn't that a weekly thing? Shouldn't we be doing this once a week? I think there's probably

a place for annual retrospectives as well, although it's not an Agile thing because obviously Agile is usually a weekly or bi-weekly basis kind of depending upon your team but you can have a sprint i think if you think of it in an agile way maybe not the agile way you know agile manifesto and all we could we can embrace the yearly look backs i would actually you know put it back to the audience honestly if if the if the audience says hey that would actually be pretty cool Can you do this once a quarter or something like that?

I'd, I'd consider like doing a more frequent state of the log. On the other hand, if they say this is dumb, why do you guys do this? Then we could just never do it again. Well, I think our audience knows that we're definitely not navel gazers. We often don't even get to share much about who we are and what we do. It's definitely a lot about you know featuring projects people perspectives points of interest thoughts you know larger topics and certainly a lot less about you and i as individuals and what we contribute but i think this is kind

of a chance to look back at what we've done. Particularly, you know, from a first point of view is like, you know, this show, the change log, and then zooming out a little further to, you know, the,

the macro level of change log at large, what's happening there, whether it's the news feed or, you know, who's joining the team or new shows being spun down or spun up and different stuff like that. So let's kick off the change logog happenings, so to speak. We shipped, we will ship in this calendar year 2018, 47 episodes.

We should stop there and maybe pat ourselves on the back. Oh, do it. Okay. It's a silent, silent back pat. Silent back pat. I like that. One thing that you always said and that I've ascribed to when it comes to putting out good stuff for people over time is that you have to take care of the three C's, right? And that's the funny thing about that is the first one starts with Q.

I don't know why, but quality content, right? So content's the first C, but you throw quality on the front of that. Right. So content, consistency, and community. Yeah. And of those three, I think consistency historically has been our problem. We've not always been all of that consistent with shipping shows. We've had long breaks.

We've almost pod faded at one point. We've had streaks where we'd ship three shows in a day and then not ship for a couple of weeks. And I think probably the best thing that happened to us at the change log in 2018, 47 episodes, you know, we shoot for what? 50 roughly.

Yeah. Plus or minus. 50 is what we're shooting for two weeks off a year is our basic, you know, boilerplate. And so we hit 47. That feels pretty good. I mean,

we're not quite, we're not quite perfect, but something to work towards and something to celebrate. So lots of episodes put out this year. i mean yeah i definitely agree on the consistency side of things i've i just had a conversation with a fellow podcaster and they were asking you know what is what are some of the things that you do that kind of help bring success and i was just like i just think we stick to the three c's and I explain what you just explained, which is quality content. And that is very subjective. Like whatever you think quality content is very different. What

we think quality content might be, you know, so that can be a never ending layered onion for you. And then obviously consistency, you mentioned we had, we've had some ups and downs on that. And I think that's, that's probably the case for most content creators is the ebb and flow of frequency. And then the last one, you know, by far my favorite is community. I mean, I think when you look at some of the things we pay attention to on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis or even yearly basis in the case of like the state of the log, for example, we're always focused on something that amplifies and resonates with a community. And that's really the key, right? Like if you can do quality content on a consistent basis to a community who actually cares, like that's a recipe in my opinion for not failing.

And I think, you know, 47 episodes later, I mean, yeah, I'm pretty stoked about that. Three shy of our actual goal. I'm curious, what do you think made us miss that goal? Was it maybe

our more frequent chat? I think we've actually traveled a little less this year than we did last year, 2017. You had a lot of trip in 2017. Yeah, I would have to look back and see which actual weeks we missed and then correlate what happened.

But we're talking about the changelog. That's 47 episodes of the changelog. We've shipped a lot more episodes than that throughout our entire catalog. So it's not that we haven't always been shipping. It's just that for some reason, the changelog itself, sometimes guests cancel. Sometimes we have things that come up. Other times, you know, we take a trip like what to oscon and we get a bunch of content there but while we're there we may not ship a show that week for for instance

so things come up but let's talk about the episodes themselves because we've had a lot of great episodes looking back over the last 47 there's a lot of good stuff in there and i pulled out a few that were fan favorites just based purely on downloads for the year and thought we would highlight them for the folks who maybe missed them or for you and I to even discuss what we thought about those shows, thought we'd pull them out. So the first one that I highlight is Winamp2.js, which is like right up there on my personal favorites episodes, because it was just, it was just nerdy and geeky to the core. And it's not the kind of project that's gonna you know disrupt the

industry and become a commercial oss project but it was just like a super rad thing and i love that we got to just nerd out about it for almost two hours yeah he went deep on that too i mean like got a job from it got a job interview at at facebook on the react team if i recall correctly was it uh captain baritone who's actually a Baritone, right? I mean, some interesting sub facts about somebody, Jordan Eldridge, the creator of that project. I mean, he went to the nth degree around the creation and, you know, kind of tie back to the original Winamp.

He was very specific with how he did it. And I think it was sort of like one of those labor of love projects that just had a lot of good fruits to come from it. One, an appearance on the show here and then, you know, Facebook, I mean,

getting, getting hired there. Sure. Working on new Clyde. And yeah, and I think one of the reasons why maybe that show was so popular in terms of downloads is because Jordan was very fun and forward to work with us and try interesting things.

Back in the spring and early summer, I was Twitch streaming stuff and just experimenting and he would hop on there and we were like hacking on Winamp 2, trying to get a Winamp version of our onsite player at changelog.com to work. And then he actually took the episode and he put it in the playlist of the Winamp2.js homepage and there's like a specific URL

that if you go directly to it I think it's just like his homepage dot the changelog or dot changelog or slash excuse me not dot

it's not a file extension it's a subdirectory so something like that and it would automatically play his episode of the changelog on

in Winamp2.js in the browser and so that was super rad and I think that probably got him some extra downloads on his on his episode of the changelog on in Winamp 2.js in the browser. So that was super rad. I think that probably got him some extra downloads on his episode. Fun fact about this, I'm not sure if you've been there in a while, but it's now officially WebAmp, not Winamp 2.js.

Oh, he renamed it. It's WebAmp.org, so if you're listening WebAmp.org or check the show notes, of course, but I was just on his projects page and noticed that he's actually officially moved on from winamp2gs to webamp which is a re-implementation of webamp 2.9 and html5 in javascript yeah very cool stuff you mentioned twitch streaming though and yes what i love about this next one you got listed here which is live coding open source on

twitch that was who's hinting my favorite jared i don't know about you but i love it when shows And what I love about this next one you got listed here, which is live coding open source on Twitch. That was Suze Hinton. My favorite, Jared, I don't know about you, but I love it when shows turn into friendships. Yes. And Suze turned into a panelist on JS Party. That's right. We didn't just keep in touch with Suze. We invited her on one of our other shows. And she's been one of our great contributor and a great panelist.

And she would even emcee JS Party. And so we've, I've got to have lots of chats with her throughout the year, but yeah, all kicked off with that. You know, Suze is kind of a prolific and an Epic Twitch streamer every Sunday morning. And she went through an interesting situation recently where she moved from

the, uh, from the East coast to the West coast in America, the United States and her time zones changed, but she had this very specific time zone talk about consistency right well on twitch consistency is everything because people kind of they want to watch live they want to participate live and so they want you to you know start your switch stream pretty much at the same time or reliable schedule all

the time so that they can organize their lives around it well she moved from one side of the country to the other. She talks about this in a JS party episode recently. And that's like three hours earlier, right? So she was, it was like noon previously or 11 a.m. her time. She was Twitch streaming and now it's like 8 a.m. And so it's changed the milieu of that stream. And so I think she's had to move times around, but time zones, right?

Anyways. Dedication. Yes, dedication. think she's had to move times around but time zones right anyways dedication yes dedication so she's still doing it um and we brought her on this is episode 288 back in march where she taught us all about how she live codes on twitch and she even inspired me to do a little bit of live stream myself for about maybe six to eight weeks. And I, you know, what's the, I Twitch faded. Twitch faded. Let's give a quick aside on like maybe two minutes on why you think the fade happened for you. Well, I don't have any, I don't have any premonitions. I know exactly why it faded is because Monday afternoons need to be productive.

And it was fun and it was experimental but i would i was such a bad programmer when i'm streaming that i wouldn't be producing it took me like four streams to put out a feature that i'm sure i could have put together in an afternoon or two non-streaming so add that plus the fact that i'm time constrained, as you well know, I'm not a full-time change logger. We hope to change that soon, at which point maybe I will be streaming on Twitch again, but just time constraints and productivity, basically. It was fun. People were involved, had some traction. It just wasn't really, you know, in terms of ROI for a business, it just wasn't there. It's interesting because I think in that show, you actually left that show with Suze

very bullish on the idea. And I think there's a lot of people who look at someone like Suze's, so for example, her dedication and commitment to it. Oh, I can do that. And you probably can, but then you get into it and you realize, wow,

this actually is really hard six months in or X weeks in or whatever it is. And that's just a credit to someone like Suze who's just got such, I mean, she travels tons. She does great work at Microsoft. She's always involved in JS Party now. I'd mentioned, you know, one of my favorite things is when the show turns into a friendship and she's been a great friend to us in many different ways and a great contributor to a lot of the content we're producing here. And I just love it when the community comes full circle. Like, Suze is out there in the world doing her awesome stuff.

We crossed paths on a podcast, and now we're friends forever. And we've found ways to work together, too. And that, to me, is what I think makes this game worth playing for. You know, it's not about, sure, we mentioned earlier the three Cs. That's just a boilerplate. It's not gospel, right? It's one way to do things, but it's not the reason for it. The reason for it is really relationships.

Absolutely. So moving down the list of popular episodes from 2018, episode 295, Scaling All the Things at Slack with Julia Grace. Adam, this was a show that you put together. You invited Julia on. You got it all lined up. I just kind of showed up and chit-chatted. So why don't you unpack that one? First of all, why do you think it was so popular? And then secondly, how did it all come together? I think the reason why it was so popular was because one, it was just a great topic. I mean, Slack is super popular. Most everyone in our industry knows it, uses it, hates it, loves it. They got some clear, defining opinion about Slack and

some personal involvement with it some way, shape, or form. And I think that we said on that show that Slack has been doing nothing but scaling since day one. They never really had a time to slow down and not scale. They've always been scaling. And I think that's just probably the case for most startups. You just start out at 100 and you never really stop. You don't get the ramp up from zero to 60 and 60 to 80 and then 80 to 100 in terms of speed or miles per hour for example. You're just boom. Gas

pedaled down kind of thing. I think another thing that sticks out for me is that it was sort of a different style of show for us. Absolutely. I was going to say that. I think we just sort of stepped back and said what are some other conversations we want to have that aren't exactly like open source per se or project per se? You know, with that kind of underpinning, what's a good story that we need to tell that really makes sense and resonates? And I think one is just the, you know, managing and being a leader within a developer organization. And in particular, Julia's perspective on that and how she's helped grow that team. So that was a scaling show, not just about tech scaling, but also people scaling and relationship scaling and how you deal with the ins and outs of things like that.

So I think it had a lot of really unique humanistic perspectives that, for me, I just walked away really enjoying it. And I think that's probably what the audience felt as well. Yeah. It's difficult when we plan out shows because we're trying to serve a, a, a breadth of experience in terms of our audience. We know we have like the super hardcore hackers and then we have the, the, the people who are just learning. And then we have people who are tangential to the actual code but

maybe not necessarily writing code day to day and so some of our shows i mean one that i was thinking of that i didn't expect would do as well as it has in terms of just uh listenership was our keeping up with elm episode that i did back in october with richard feldman like super super straight scope, like small scope talking about Elm. It's a catch up show, which means you kind of have to know Elm in the first place, or at least know what it is. And we're like talking about new features and speed and, and the way things are architecture,

just very nerdy, right? Very technical. And still was of the last couple of months, one of the most popular episodes, but, uh, the show like that one with Julia, it is just more approachable for a bigger audience where you don't necessarily have to have the technical expertise to get something out of it. And she has so much, like you said, so much wisdom and experience in leadership that there was just tons of takeaways. It's definitely one of my favorites because we did kind of get away from just simply the technical sides of things. And, you know, actually on today's front page of changelog.com, this is sort of an aside here real quick off the beaten path of our plan here,

but is code enough? And that was a talk by Henry Zhu at All Things Open. And I think it just kind of goes similar to that. Not so much as code enough, but like, is it only about code? And I think our obvious answer is no, it's not only about code. I mean, at the other end of every function is what? More data. I'm just kidding.

Humans. Humans, right? Like humans are there. A unit test? Oh, okay. Exactly. See, we know our perspectives here then. You know, it's all about humans, man.

It's all about relationships. And in the end, you know, code is a medium to enable better life for people. And I think that really resonates with people, especially when you give someone like Julia a chance to sort of share her, you know, bloody knuckles stuff that happened at Slack. You know, the growth and the scale challenges, scaling engineering teams, the responsibilities, the different challenges of being a manager. A lot of people really lean into that because either they're junior wanting to be

senior, eventually wanting to be manager or really enjoy management or love product management, love product direction. And they need to have representation to feel invited or feel like they can actually accomplish that which i've been there before i've i've needed personal representation somewhere for me to feel like i can actually do this and i think shows like that give people that that feeling next up is uh this was i'm i'm actually surprised it's on a list is it on a list because it was just listener popular or is this this is listener popular right okay this is listener popular yep so i'm not exactly surprised i'm i'm actually delighted i'll take the surprise back and give delighted instead and i would say because another fan favorite julia julia white in the case of being a corporate vice president at Microsoft, 17-year veteran, no less.

We met at Microsoft Build and brought, we worked with closely at Microsoft to sort of get the right people onto the show and get interviews with the right people at Microsoft Build, which is actually kind of hard. But we really pushed to speak with Julia because we just really wanted to talk through this backstory of Microsoft Azure. Like, sure, most everybody just thinks, oh, it's Microsoft's cloud or whatever. But I think there's such an interesting story in how we even began this show and back to like the beginnings of Office.

And she told this whole story of how Azure actually began with what was a presentation. So what was it? What was the um the the insider thing they have at Microsoft I can't remember what it's called now uh the server they have not not ISS server but the SharePoint SharePoint yeah it was I think it was some sort of like cloud-based SharePoint idea they got baked if I'm remembering correctly I could probably scan the transcript you should go read the transcript and find out. I should

do that. But there was just an interesting story there that I didn't even know went as deep as it did, but there was so much more there. And that kind of show, to me, personally, I loved a lot. And I'm really glad it's one of the fan favorites because I love that show. And I'm kind of surprised that because Microsoft hasn't

had the best name, they're definitely getting a better name, a more respected name. But when you just say the beginnings of Microsoft Azure, it's like, yeah, do I really care? I think the answer was yes. Yeah. And that show in terms of reaching listeners was a slow burn. It didn't come out of the gates as super popular. I think that makes sense because in the beginnings of Microsoft Azure is the title of the show. And, you know, if I'm being honest, I wouldn't probably listen to that show if I just saw the title myself.

Episode 298, of course, in the show notes if you want to go back and listen. But the fact is that Julia is just a captivating and just smart as a whip guest. I mean, she was so much fun. She's so charismatic. Yeah. I felt like we had a good rapport with her

and she was just ready for anything that she was she was just snapping back answers and uh just makes for a very enjoyable conversation maybe one of the most enjoyable conversations that we had all year with a guest she's just spectacular so i think it started slow and then because of just the guest being great and the conversation being enjoyable over time has continued to be downloaded. And even now, you know, months later, it's still getting, you know, a couple hundred downloads in any given day. And I think that's a testament of the fact that it's just a really good conversation. She actually, I found this in the transcript. It was Terry Meyerson. And she said, finally, Terry Meyerson, I give him tons of credit he was like in quotes we're going

to the cloud we're putting this stuff on the cloud we're doing it and everyone thought he was crazy they literally thought he was crazy and i could just i can hear her voice resonating as i read this she goes on to say so he actually did it in secret so the reason microsoft azure is what it is was because somebody on the inside that wasn't even like they were just you know like anybody else a quality person doing awesome stuff but it wasn't like this big grand plan it was like done in secret we need to do this and she was on the site she says he did this thing called exchange labs where he launched it as an educational program for universities as an excuse to be

able to ship things in the cloud that wasn't going to affect businesses so he stayed out of the line of fire from the sales teams and other things so he essentially figured out how to fly under the radar and goes on to say so we started this kind of secretly out of the back closet creating this cloud service for our email system under exchange labs. So she shares this really interesting, definitely not expected story of the beginnings of Microsoft Azure. And so as a listener, as someone in the conversation, I loved it. But as a listener, I would love it like 10 times more because it's just not maybe one of our normal styles of shows.

You and I were in person face-to face to face with her we got to have as you mentioned that great rapport and as you mentioned also she was really easy to speak with and just a naturally great speaker and i've seen her since then speak on stage and uh that wasn't her first time to the roadie let's just say she's she's definitely a seasoned relationist, if that's even a word, to say, to just have a good rapport with an audience. She's really good at it. I just thought she was an amazing guest and great story, obviously. Yeah. One last, this isn't a single episode.

I did not put it in our outline. So if you're wondering what I'm talking about, I just am looking at the stats here as we talk. And one other, I guess I'll call this a trend, two episodes that both fared pretty well and were both on the same topic is GraphQL. So if we think about what developers are interested in, things that are burgeoning and becoming more popular, episode 297 with Johannes Schickling,

Prisma and the GraphQL data layer did very well with our listeners. And then, of course, John Rezegg, who's not going to listen to John Rezegg talk. Prisma and the GraphQL data layer did very well with our listeners and then of course John Rezig who's not going to listen to John Rezig talk this is actually a cross post from JS Party this is a JS Party episode that we did with Suze and I

interviewed John Rezig all about GraphQL because he's quite bullish on it and that was a JS Party episode but we put it in the changelog feed because it was so good and that one also was very popular. So GraphQL is hitting on all cylinders at this point in 2018. I really enjoyed the 101 too that we got recently on just graph databases. The laying that out to me in that episode.

What was the episode for that since you're on the GraphQL kick? That was Dgraph and the Manish Jain talking about Dgraph. We're actually focused on licensing in that episode because Dgraph went through that licensing switcheroo and commons clause and all that, but

he definitely gave a good 101 on graph databases. I actually pulled that out and made a little post of it from the transcript because it was such a good explanation that people enjoyed reading that one. So yeah, that was a good episode as well. Let's, let's, let's turn to a little controversy because we're from most popular to most controversial. Can anybody guess what it is? What was the episode that got us the most feedback in terms of positive, negative, agree, disagree. What do you think, Adam?

I thought you were asking the audience. I was hoping they would actually chime in somehow. They can't answer. How are they going to do that? I can't wait to hear. I'll ask you, but you already know because you were there. Am I reading from our script here, this list?

Or you may have come up with a brand new one. No, you can just go ahead and read it. Come on. Okay. Play along, man. I would say in that case, then, corporate interests in open source and dev culture. Zed Shaw, I mean, he can't come on anything or make an appearance, in my opinion, without ruffling some feathers, let's just say. In good ways and bad ways.

What I like about Zed is he makes us think. He makes us really think about the different perspectives. Might be a little jaded, but that's cool. Whatever. I get that. He's definitely had... He makes us really think about the different perspectives. Might be a little jaded, but that's cool. You know, whatever. I get that. He's definitely had, he's been down the road and he's had some things happen to him. So I think he operates in like this unique world of somewhat trauma. And he's, there was something I actually watched recently on YouTube.

It was like, assume that everyone has good intentions. And I don't think that zed particularly does that i could be wrong but there you go yep that was definitely a interesting conversation and episode 300 we did not celebrate 300 in any sort of natal gazing way like we're natal gazing right now but uh we definitely had a very interesting conversation and one that brought, like I said, the most feedback that we've received all year long. And, um, you know, we appreciate feedback. We like the emails. We like the tweets. We love people who open up issues and ping and let us know what you're thinking, because when we don't have that, uh, we're really just kind of doing, doing what we think is good and, and really, uh, you know, doing really doing shows that we want to do

and sometimes that works out and sometimes that doesn't work out. So we want to know when we're missing the mark or not. Go ahead. I'd also say that this is another one of those shows that began differently than other shows typically do. This actually was spawned from a Twitter rant

that he had done, essentially around corporate involvement in open source. And I'm like, clearly Zed's got something actually was spawned from a Twitter rant that he had done essentially around, you know, corporate involvement in open source. And I'm like, clearly that's got something to say about this. Yes. Pass it over to you.

I'm like, Hey, what do you think? You're like, yes, it sounds great. Sort of lining it up. And,

you know, for the listeners sake, this, this show sort of camped out around his thoughts on open source, making money in open source, corporate interests and involvement, open source, uh, dev culture, and really a ton more.

I mean, it's Zed, but I think if this is a true retrospective, I think that what I'm seeing here is when we go off of our beaten path, so to speak, is when we somehow arrive at listener favorite shows. Or listener most controversial shows. Yeah, I guess in this case. Well, how does this one fare in terms of listens? No, it's up there. It's definitely up there.

It's like top, I'd say top 15 for the year. So it did well. It was listened to. So it wasn't not a listener favorite. It just wasn't the most favorite. Well, controversy, of course, brings listens because people want to hear what's going on. So lots of engagement, I guess, if we're going to use the internet marketing speech, speak. But yeah, I mean, I think one thing that I've said maybe on the air, maybe not, is that for me, like our favorite, my favorite episodes are the ones that I ended up being the most proud of over the years are usually the ones where either you or I, or both of us are nervous going into the call,

not necessarily nervous because the person's intimidating. Although sometimes that is the case. I remember with Matt's in particular, uh, I was nervous. Yeah. Um, cause it's like meeting the hero. Um, but where we're like, ah, this could go South or this might be a really bad idea. You know, the show that we did a couple of years back with Peter Hitchens as he was, you know, terminally ill was like a huge risk. And one that, I mean, I mean, admittedly we were both like, this could be a really bad idea, right. Before the call. And it was an amazing, it was an amazing conversation. Um, I could name a really bad idea right before the call and it was an amazing it was an amazing conversation um i could name a few other ones but yeah definitely when we go outside of our comfort

zone and try something new i think it tends to bear fruit and sometimes that fruit is you know sweet and tasty and other times you know might be a little sour but that's right you don't know what to try though that's right you gotta be willing to do the risks and i think that's probably some advice to others out there if you're listening to this and you are a fellow podcaster or thinking, man, I think I could do that, like Suze, for example. And maybe you try it. I would just say, you know, take some of that advice, you know, take show and even Matt's show. Cause I remember telling Matt's in direct message on Twitter, uh, because English is not Matt's first language.

You know, it took a lot of selling, had to reassure Matt's like, Hey, we will, you know, I was just trying to like say whatever I could to help him understand that we really cared about his presence and sounding on the show.

Cause we knew that English wasn't his first language. And I was like, we'll talk slower. We'll repeat ourselves if we need to. We'll do a great job editing. We'll take a lot of time to make sure that you don't sound silly or anything that he may have been concerned about with English not being his first language. And he actually has really good English for Japanese being his primary language. But, you know, it really took several months.

And turns out, too, that Matt was a listener. We started in the pre-call. We're like, he's like, oh, yeah, I'm a listener to the show. I couldn't believe that, which was always awesome. And then Peter. I was telling somebody about this show recently, Peter Hingen's, uh, this show episode two, two zero five, two Oh five, a protocol for dying one, a very tough show to title. Uh, I would say 10 times harder to actually be a part of. And the last two minutes, I, I actually can't go back and listen to this episode.

I think I would actually be emotionally distraught because of it. Like this story and this person was just meant so much to me afterwards. As you mentioned, the uncomfortability, like I was super uncomfortable even inviting him onto the show because I was like, I knew the situation. But then he said he was doing some sort of meetup. I'm like, OK, this person is definitely OK with, you know, they may not be happy with their circumstance, but they're okay with sharing what they can learn from the circumstance. And so I was like, hey, this might sound weird, but would you be interested in talking through just some of these details with the developer world on our show? And he's like, totally. And we did that show.

And I think it was 117 minutes long. So almost two hours, 120 minutes, two hours. Yeah, almost two hours. So good luck with the ride if you do listen to the show and maybe skip the last two minutes because I know I almost teared up in the last two minutes, personally. Well, speaking of favorites, let's real quick, because we've got other stuff to get to, but let's real quick, each of us pick favorite episode of the year. Personal favorite, not necessarily the one that did the best or resonated the most or most controversial. So this is staff favorites.

Staff, yeah. I love that, staff favorites. Okay, so you can go first. Staff favorites. Stack that. Staff favorites. Okay. So you can go first. Staff favorites. Stack favorites. Stack favorites. Episode 321. Drupal is a pretty big deal.

I think I'm choosing this one because of one. I've just seen so much on Twitter as a surprise to have had Angela, Angie, as she says, she says, if you're my friend, you call me Angie, but her name is Angela Byron. Just did not expect such a beautiful spirit to join us on the show. I don't know why I didn't. I just, you know, maybe I'm a negative person. I don't know what, but similar to. Are you feeling frumpy coming into that?

I don't know. I mean, I don't know why I would. I mean, I always think people have the best. I always try to think about people having the best intentions, as I said before. But she was just such a delight. She had all this history in the Drupal community. This is something we hadn't talked about. I think this is why it's one of my favorites. It's like we hadn't covered Drupal literally ever since 2009.

That's basically a sin. We should be slapped, publicly slapped for that. And, you know, here's Angie coming on, core contributor, staple of the community in Drupal. And she just lays it down and she's such a joy to talk to. And there was so many people that were inspired by, you know, what's going on in the community. And if you're not excited about PHP or Drupal per se, you can certainly be very excited about the way they're operating their community and the way they're treating people.

For me, there was a lot of technical love in that show, but more so community love in that show. And I loved that they're doing something so right. And I said it in our intro, so we were happy to celebrate with them as they march along to their framlication beat of their own drum. I thought it was pretty cool because she said framlication.

We were both like, what was that? So that's why it's my favorite. Well, mine is not too far before that. It is 318, which we did in October. Actually kind of an answer to the zed shaw conversation or maybe it a inspired by it sprung out of that from listener feedback and that episode is called a call for kindness in open source uh with brett cannon and just why did i love it it was probably just the most fun conversation that we had of the year. Uh, not to,

not to knock on Angie. That was a good one as well. But for me, I mean, we, you said you love it when a show turns into a friendship. Well, I just felt like at the end of that show, Brett and us were just bonded. Like we got, we, we got each other. We talked for almost four hours. Yeah. It's the show is not four hours. So don't be intimidated. It's 90 minutes. No, you hang up. No, you hang up. No, you hang up. It's basically what it was at the end. It was. It was all loves.

It was all loves. You know, and the funny part, if you listen to the very end of that show, there's a little Easter egg at the end that Tim put in, which is an excerpt of our post-call conversation about Star Wars. So, I mean, we just went deep into nerd culture and movies, and I had to go to the bathroom so bad, but I was just holding it because- Four hours later, you didn't go to the bathroom? We're having so much fun.

Well, it wasn't the entire time. Oh, boy. By the end of the call, I remember having to run to the bathroom at the end, but just a blast. Brett's such a nice guy. What a great message, again, more on the community side. Of course, he has deep roots in

Python, Python core contributor for many years he's been through it all he's stuck through thick and thin a lot of the problems in open source and a lot of the victories and just has a really positive and solid message and I felt like

by the end of that show and by the end of that four hour conversation that we had a friend. So that was a great episode. Trying to get to the episode to see what the time was. So if we were on the call for- It's a 90 minute duration. Okay, so of the four hours, 90 minutes was tape,

which I think leans into the idea of the fact that we have breaks during the show we take typically two breaks and in this case we took breaks but we just nerded out the one the first break i think was 45 minutes and i think we were actually like that's right are we getting back into the show anytime soon like we were like we were deep into like keanu reeves and the matrix and whether or not he was or was not canadian and that's right we were like deep we were in wiki i mean when you end up at wikipedia in a break you know you've gone wrong we were in like movie trivia we found out a lot about different things

he liked or not it was really interesting i like that a lot i'm glad that was one of your favorites because we needed that show in my my opinion, for the entire community. I know that not everybody listens to our podcast and that's okay. I mean, yeah. I mean, you didn't know that. What's wrong with them? But I mean, I think this is one of those ones, if you're going to recommend a podcast that's 90 minutes long and, you know, is talking about the open source community and ways to treat one another and operate, this is the one, I think.

This is the one I will point to forever to say, we need kindness. And go back and listen to this episode and find out why. And as you mentioned too, Brett is such a leader in that front. The human side of the code is strong here, man. Strong with this one. So you mentioned the breaks.

Let's get a little inside scoop here on the breaks. Because you say that we have two breaks during the show. And the truth of the matter is oftentimes, not even just sometimes, but oftentimes the breaks are the best part of the conversation. Sometimes they're short and they're just like, hey, I get a drink of water, we'll start again. But oftentimes we go way off tangent into deep things in the breaks. I think with

Johannes Schickling, I think we did like an hour on like website design and like looking at different things during a break. And then we had to get back to the show. We've thought about in the past, we thought about actually releasing the breaks, not all of them, maybe just the ones that actually turn into good conversations as a separate show and maybe a sub show. I don't know. We've talked about the breaks, but we've never done anything with it. That's something that you're super interested in kind of conversations like this one we're having here. Hit us up. Let us know. We do have a show that maybe y'all don't know about called Backstage. And it's kind of like the breaks. It's inside the changelog. It's

Adam and I and Tim and people that are involved in the production of the shows and changelog news and all of that getting together and talking about things that aren't necessarily the show proper. And that podcast Backstage is subscribable only in master. So we have a master feed. If you like the changelog, you will probably like JS party. You will probably like practical AI. You'll probably like away from keyboard, et cetera. And if you don't like a certain episode, just delete it, but go subscribe to the master feed. Then you get all of our shows in one feed. You don't have a bunch, have to have a bunch of feeds, delete the ones you don't want to listen to. And backstage, which is not on a, it's not like a weekly show, but we do it every once in a

while is only in that master feed. So if you want to listen to those kind of conversations, and backstage, which is not on a weekly show, but we do it every once in a while, is only in that master feed. So if you want to listen to those kind of conversations, just go ahead and unsubscribe from the changelog and then really quickly go subscribe to master and you'll get backstage as well. Really fast. Yeah. Two seconds later.

Make sure we don't notice because we'll start to feel bad. Let's reverse that. Don't delete your changelog feed until you subscribe to master. Subscribe to master first and then go back and remove chang changelog as a feed for you that's right that's the battle-hardened way to do it i've i've done that i actually personally subscribed to our master feed and uh and i would i used to track because you know you always pay attention to what you do to some degree at least you know how things work and stuff qa or actually listen. I listen to shows I'm not on. I love it. That's how I do it.

I actually subscribe to the master feed because it's just easier. It's just less feeds. That's right. Less feeds. I go to master, get all the shows, get all the shows. It's so easy. It's so easy. Yeah.

So how do you do that? In your podcast app, you can search for changelog master and you'll find it. If you're on the web, changelog.com slash master, and you can get all the subscribe links from there. So that's how you do that. If you're interested, changelog.com slash backstage, you can listen on the web, but you can only get it into a podcast app in the master feed. So there you go. That's right. And I would say while we're on that front too, considering there's only two episodes in the backstage feed one thing we're trying to do is

at least I would say it would be nice to get to maybe a bi-weekly basis of those you know or at least one a month I think we could use backstage to do some breaks episodes maybe just wait and you know wait a month and see like what's been the best breaks from the changelog during that month and then have Tim splice them together

and create a, a backstage episode. But yeah, we have more stuff that we want to do. We just kind of got started on it and I think we'll do at least an episode a month. And probably once I become full time, we'll be able to do maybe two a month,

but that's a little bit down the road. Yeah. But if you have any feedback audience, let us know on that show. If there's something you want to hear about that sparks your interest, that isn't like any other show content related backstage fitting say hello there you go so let's change gears now we're talking about new stuff backstage is a new thing that we're doing let's talk about what's new in 2018 because we've done a lot and we've made some moves we got some new podcasts

and we thought we would talk about that a little bit. You want to take the reins, Adam? Yes. So, GS Party began in 2017, right? And we started Go Time, I want to say, in like 2015. So, we've always had a few shows. And then my podcast, Finders Talk, which was on hiatus for literally five years, began that show in 2010 on Dan Benjamin's 5x5 Podcast Network.

And then once we sort of went with this more than one show idea, a lot of the new site design we've done, CMS and stuff like that that we've been working on for the last couple of years, it finally made sense to have time to resume a few things and start new shows and stuff like that. So now we actually have what six active podcasts, uh, right now, go times on hiatus, but coming back soon,

but we got the change. Like as you're listening to JS party founders, talk away from keyboard, practical AI go time. and as we mentioned backstage and one other unmentioned show so far is called spotlight which we use for big announcements conferences and the hallway track which is sort of like this flexible show i guess to some degree but it's it's it's like you know we did the Apple Mac event recently on that. We all got on there and talked about, like, the developer's perspective to the iPad Pro, the new MacBook Air, and the new Mac Mini. And those are fun to do.

But, you know, we've got some plans around our podcasts. And that's why we say subscribe to the Master V. Like, there's more than just the change. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking, thinking like i had no idea there were other shows this is amazing well today is basically christmas for you or something like that because you know we've got more shows master feeds for you and there's lots that you've been missing out on um i'm pretty excited about that because we mentioned suze earlier and different relationships we've added on you know more of a team to js party the panelists grew from three we hiatus it for a little bit uh brought it back with a kind of a larger panelist perspective to give michael alex and

rachel kind of a break because they were kind of getting burned on being able to travel and be there and the show was you know a little off and on and it's frequency because of that. And going back to the three C's, it makes sense. But Suze Hinton, Faraz, Faraz Abugadije, Kevin Ball,

you, Jared, Nick Nisi, Safia Abdallah, Christopher Hiller, Michael Rogers, Alex Sexton, and Rachel White are all current panelists of this awesome show.

We called JS party, but I love that show. Yeah, talk about consistent. Ever since we rebooted it, I think it was back in June with this new expanded panel and a new time, which is Thursdays at noon central, 1 p.m. Eastern. I guess that's 10 a.m. U.S. Pacific time. We've shipped an episode every week ever since. And so we've been very consistent. It's been a blast having a rotating panel. You know,

it's kind of, I look at it like cheers. You know, you want to go somewhere where everybody knows your name. And of course it's a JS party. And so we really have a fun atmosphere. And even though I'm not, uh,

the JavaScript guy, I've felt very welcome there. I've had lots of fun. I still feel like i have things to say because i write plenty of javascript um and it's been fun to just be a part of that that panel of people so many smart people so much fun and uh yeah if you are at all in it's not just javascript focus of course we do talk about the language we talk about node.js but there's a lot of front-end conversation.

We sneak in some CSS and some styling and design. And so it's really trying to anywhere that we... That's why we say it's a celebration of JavaScript and the web, because it's really about the web platform. And anything that touches that space, if that touches your life, then JSParty is something worth checking out. Yeah. I'd even say there's desires to round out,

as you mentioned, sneaking in CSS and styles in different places, you know, for less than just simply JavaScript-focused

conversations, too. So, as a listener, if you want to hear more stuff like that, you know, pitch ideas to us. You know, share your feedback

of what you'd like to hear from, because we're essentially reaching into our pockets and saying, hey, what have we put in here recently for to pull out later and that's what we do we sort of organize shows around the panelists available and who's around which is great it's it's a great reason and a great recipe recipe for having so many panelists is is one i like your idea of cheers you know you don't know everybody's name and you know you get

different perspectives and you know reappearing cast members so to speak and it also takes that burden off everybody to show up every single week you know and it gives us a chance to round out the diversity in terms of uh points of view and perspectives and i love my most favorite thing about js party is i would say like the respect level everyone has for one another you know to to never i don't always feel open to bring up things and even disagree it's not a it's not an oh suze you're amazing or oh kevin you're amazing it's kind of like why'd you do that sometimes? And, you know, I like that. We need that. Yeah, there's lively debates.

There's lots of laughing. It's a blast. And it's been a joy to work on and to put out each and every week this year. Let's talk about away from the keyboard a little bit because we've mentioned it offhand. We've mentioned Tim. So maybe you should give the full story on Tim is our newest addition to the team. And what is 2018, right? He wasn't with us in 2017.

So a huge change and a huge advance. And one of the reasons why we've been able to accomplish the consistency side is because of Tim and Away From Keyboard is his show. So Adam, why don't you tell the folks about Tim Smith? Let's start with Tim Smith first, then going away from keyboard. So I've known Tim I want to say geez, let's just say years. The blog post

I wrote introducing him to our community and the new senior producer here says that I've known him since 2012 and that's my family in the background. They're coming in as a cameo they just got back from uh from school um but tim joins us joins us the newest member senior producer

so i've known tim for many years and he has always been the kind of person that focused on the details that's what i love probably one of my most favorite qualities of Tim, not my favorite thing of Tim, but my favorite quality of his is like his focus and attention to detail. And he sweats those things. And I think he holds us accountable to the details, which I really love in a person because I will sometimes shave off an edge because I can, I can be lazy and Tim doesn't let me basically. Neither do you either, Jared, but you know, you know, that's what I love about Tim. And I've known Tim as a podcaster. He's created many podcasts over the years.

I've been on his shows. He's been on my shows. I've listened to his shows. And we were just in need of someone to really round out the production team. Without trying to toot my own horn i would say a similar perspective on those things like i did because i would spend a lot of time editing our stuff like i was our primary editor for a long time mastering all the shows producing you know all the different things and it's a lot a lot of work and we needed to to be able to scale like there was no way we

could do that many shows that we just talked about unless we had someone like Tim on our team. And so if it weren't for Tim, we wouldn't be as consistent as we are. We wouldn't be shipping the amount of shows we are. I might be in a fetal position crying on occasional days. That doesn't mean I still don't do that,

but I'm less likely. Different reasons now. Yeah, I'm less likely to do it. And Tim, as someone who's done some really awesome shows over the years, like the East Wing, For the Record, the Radio Column, he came wanting to do his own show, not knowing that he would be allowed. I don't know why he wouldn't be allowed to work at a podcast company per se. In air quotes, I did air quotes there, podcast company and not produce a podcast. So when he joined the team, I was like, you know, I want to support you in your creative

work. I want you to be able to do something. No pun intended, but he has this show called Away from Keyboard, exploring the human side of creative Work. And so he was really excited to be able to do his own show. He named that show Away From Keyboard. I don't think I had anything involved in the naming. Did you, Jerry?

I know he gave feedback, but that was his name, right? Yeah, he came up with it and he asked if we liked it. Right. I loved it immediately. I was like, yeah. We knew kind of where he wanted to camp out at, but we weren't really sure what to call it and how to describe it. And so away from keyboard, exploring the human side of creative work, new episodes every other Wednesday.

You can go to changelog.com slash AFK. The coolest URL I think we have, one of the coolest at least, aside from RFC, which we'll get to here in just a second, because we hiatus that. I guess we actually retired that. Yeah, that's all'll get to here in just a second. Cause why, why we, I hate is that I guess we actually retired that. Um, yeah, that's all I have to say about away from keyboard.

I love the show. I love the perspective of it. Speaking of Susan Hinton, she was actually a, uh, one of the guests on episode number seven. Um, I'm waiting to,

to hear you on there, Jared. Ooh, that'd be fun. So yeah, away from keyboard is awesome. It's about 30 minutes. It's highly produced

and uh i would say low frequency but high quality yeah if you want uh one to listen to of course the one with suze would be good if you are a suze hitman fan the episode number four if you want a recommendation jeff robbins is an actual rock star i freaking love that episode. And I think you will too. So check that one out. Subscribe to AFK. And if Tim's editing this, Tim, if you want to go above and beyond, splice a little preview of AFK right in here. Boom. Drop it.

Yeah, thank you. So in this episode that Jared was just talking about, I asked Jeff Robbins about the decision when his band was offered a record deal. He had to stop his business. Was that a difficult decision? I got offered a record deal, Tim, in 1994.

It was like rock and roll. No, it was not a difficult decision. I figured that'd be the answer, but I wanted to ask just in case. Anyway, thanks, guys. Back to you. I will mention, too, that the shows are actually on the shorter side. So if you're looking for something a little shorter, maybe even more in the commuter friendly or drive to the grocery store

or doing dishes friendly, then the shows tend to range in the 15, 20, maybe as much as 30-ish minutes, but never an hour or so. And that's the way I believe Tim plans to keep it. Although I don't think he treats himself like a time schedule, but he tends to err on the side of like 15 minutes to 30 minutes. I think 15 being the absolute shortest I've seen. So it's definitely a shorter form factor.

And back to Tim real quick, great addition to the team. He does so much more than just editing and mastering. And I'm really excited to have someone like him on our team that helps us think through a lot of the details. And as we said before, we really sweat the details. And if you can't tell as a listener or a frequent visitor to changelog.com, let me just tell you that we try to. We try to sweat the details every single day. Why don't you mention retiring RFC? Why did I mention it? No, why don't you?

Why don't you? Okay. Yeah, we retired RFC. It was a bittersweet uh day of course our much beloved but uh often hiatus or i guess seasonal meaning lots of breaks in between episodes and seasons request for commits with nadia ekbal and michael rogers i feel like it's been retired for longer than a year but uh it definitely was the beginning of this year when that happened. You know,

it was a show that ran its course. It's something that we're super proud of and you probably listened to the retired episode which made both feeds, so it definitely shipped

in the changelog feed where we talked all about RFC, its history, why we did it, why it's being retired. And so, if that's something

that you're interested in, definitely check it out. There's those episodes a lot of them are evergreen so it's a great back catalog of course when we retire a show we don't you know yank its back catalog or anything like that so you can definitely go back and listen to it but yes request for commits the feed is retired but many of the conversations that they have and will continue to have are happen on the changelog. And so really nobody's missing anything. But yeah, the RFC feed has been retired,

and that's, you know, sometimes you got to get moving on. That's right. I like how you say it ran its course, because I mean, I think one thing that came out in the finale episode was just, I think Nadia actually opened up this conversation like this. She said that, you know, they'd done, they'd accomplished what they wanted to accomplish with the show. They talked to the different people.

They brought the different perspectives to sustainability in open source, which I think was its core tenant. And obviously the different perspectives of driving and delivering and maintaining and, you know, leading open source. All the different nuances, not simply just the code. It was the human side, as they said, the human side of open source, the human side of code. I think what's also interesting is that you can still subscribe to this show in Apple iTunes or in Overcast or on Android or wherever you're at. There's still the RSS feed there.

So it's not like you said, it's archived on the site and we call it retired. But it's no different than, say, the site and we call it retired, but you know, it's no different than say, you know, when you go to Netflix and you watch a season and they're already done, like they're just not doing anymore. Yeah. That's all.

That's the difference is you can still listen to the same way you listen every other podcast. It's just that that's the end. When you get the episode 20, there won't be any more. There won't be episode 21, which is kind of nice for us completionists because you can actually accomplish something. You can finish, which I always appreciate finishing.

We mentioned this as one of our favorites in a recent episode, which was from what I can tell, a beloved episode. This is kind of going back a little bit to the changelog was our recent conversation about Brave and BAT, but in particular with Request for Commits. If you're a fan of Brendan Eich, who isn't, founder of Brave and creator of JavaScript, he talked quite heavily behind the history of the web, how it had been funded, the backstory on the earlier browser wars and the emerging different monetization models they were all coming up with it was a very different world the web was becoming the web and the browsers were becoming the browsers and the wars were becoming the wars all at the same time and he also talked about why we have big problems that are hard to solve for the internet and the different

trade-offs we've had to do over centralization and distribution over the years and stuff like that. So like, if you want serious wisdom, which I would say this entire podcast RFC was all about was serious wisdom from a lot of really interesting movers and shakers in the open source landscape. This one in particular was my favorite. So I don't know if you have a favorite, Jerry, but I wanted to mention it real quick because that was, that was one of my, I mean, i have a couple of those i love but this one in particular i really enjoy because i was um a backseat producer to this show so i was at every episode and listened to the conversations in real

time and i'm sitting there thinking like holy crap i'm listening to brennan nike share literally the history of the web right here and it was was just, he speaks in a way that he's got all this experience. He's been there. He was in the trench. You know what I mean? It was just really enjoyable. He dug the trench. Oh, he dug the trench. I like that. You like that? Yeah, I do like that.

He's not just in it. He dug it. That's right. He was there when he was digging it. That's right. Alright, well, we're getting towards the end here. Let's, parting thoughts, final things. We should talk about change dog news a little bit because we've put, put in a lot of effort into that.

And unlike, uh, many news outlets or, uh, writers and bloggers who have taken comments off of their websites, we're actually putting comments onto our website. So we're going, you know,

we're, we're plowing our own path and we've added commenting to change dog news. We've also expanded the number of editors. So it's not just Adam and I writing these days. We have, gosh, I think this week alone, we have five or six other people writing and logging news with us. And we want to create a lively discussions around the news because most of the feedback that we get with changelog news is email replies or heck verbal people tell us about it or twitter but it's all just kind of all over the place we thought well let's have an actual place where we can discuss the news and so we just recently launched comments in fact it's been a

soft launch we haven't really announced it or anything but they're out there now i don't know if some sort like we haven't really even said it publicly really here it is public uh come discuss the news the goings-on of the open source and software development communities with us uh on change.com we would really love everybody's involvement and your perspective and your insights in our comments. That's right. And you mentioned the expanding editorial panel. And one other interesting fact is that we have submissions. So not only can you come on there and discuss, you can share links with us.

You can actually submit news. And when you do that, you'll be able to share a URL, a title, and maybe this is an optional piece, but potentially what you find interesting about it. That way we just understand some context of what struck you. But just hop in there. Worst case scenario, just share a URL and a title. And if you feel like it, what's interesting, hit submit and you're golden. There's some submission guidelines kind of guiding of what we're looking for just to kind of give you more of a confidence that it'll get through the process. But we definitely have an editorial team. We look at every submission that comes through.

Not everything makes it onto, I, I guess into change log news. So some things get cut, some things don't, but I love, I love news. You know, this goes back to, I want to say like 2014 ish.

When we first launched our email list and this, you know, change all news began as an email really. And it, we were on a weekly basis to sort of like archiving things to log at the end of the week and one day somebody got this bright idea to like real-time log the things rather than doing it just once a week and so this is a manifestation of that long-time goal and at the end of the week on sund. So if you subscribe to the email list,

which is clearly present when you go to changelog.com, you can't miss it. You will get a once a week email summary of the best that came from this week's coverage. So if you're looking for one of the best emails to listen to or subscribe to, it's definitely one of them. It ships on Sunday in the morning. Otherwise, you can track changelog.com.

And as Jared mentioned, discuss, submit, and join a thriving community. It's freely available to you of no charge. The only charge is your attention. And we would love you if you give us a little bit of your attention, which would be great. But news is a big deal, man. I love news. Amen to that.

Anything else before we call it a year? Let's call it a year. I mean, I think one quick mention of news is actually this began, this front end of news began at the beginning of this year. So this is actually year one of it. We probably could have gone deeper on it. It's just because it's been such a, like a 180 in some cases or a redo in some cases because it led to a new design for the site, which maybe that's a backstage. Maybe we can do all that on the backstage. I think it is. Go into that kind of detail because to me, that's a really interesting story that no one's really heard yet or got to hear.

I'm not even sure if we've had like a retrospective personally on that. Like, you know how the, I mean, this, there's been a massive design change this year and it really began with news as the underpinning of, of all the UI changes search in place. Now new way to listen to podcasts. I mean, so much has changed because of news. It's not simply just a place you can go read, comment, discuss, or submit. It's actually been quite a paradigm shift in terms of design for us too this year,

which I think has been deeply successful. Yes, that's all good fodder for an upcoming episode of Backstage. But for now, happy 2018. Happy 2018, y' yo. Thank you for listening. See you next year. Alright, thank you for tuning in to this episode of The Change Log. If you enjoyed this show, do us a favor, go on iTunes or Apple Podcasts

and leave us a rating or review. Go on Overcast and favorite it, tweet a link to it, share it with a friend. Also, thanks to Fastly, our bandwidth partner. Head to Fastly.com to learn more.com to learn more. And we're able to move fast and fix things here at Changelog because of Rollbar. Check them out at Rollbar.com. And we're hosted on Linode cloud servers. Head to Linode.com slash Changelog. This episode was hosted by Jared Santo. The edited mix was by me, Tim Smith. And the music is by the

one and only Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more episodes like this, subscribe to our master feed at changelog.com slash master. Or go into your podcast app and search for changelog master and you'll find it. Subscribe, get all the shows as well as some extras that only hit the master feed. Thanks for listening. We'll see you in 2019.