The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)

Episode Date: December 20, 2024

Our 7th annual year-end wrap-up is here! We're featuring 12 listener voicemails, dope Breakmaster Cylinder remixes & our favorite episodes of the year. Thanks for listening! 💚

Okay, last episode of the year. I'll just drop in that Friends theme. No, something's off. This is State of the Log. We gotta go classic. But where did I put that? Ah, there it is. Oh yes, it's late December once again. That classic changelog theme song is bumping, and it is time for our seventh annual State of the Log episode. If this is your first time with us, welcome to the changelog. We are the software world's best weekly news brief, deep technical interviews, and weekend talk show that feels like hanging out in the hallway of your favorite conference only on repeat. Big thanks to our partners at Fly.io for helping us bring you awesome developer pods all year long. You know we love Fly, the public cloud built for

developers who ship. Give it a try at Fly.io. Okay, let's do it. What's up, nerds? I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Fly. You know we love Fly. So, Kurt, I want to talk to you about the magic of the cloud. You have thoughts on this, right? Right. I think it's valuable to understand the magic behind a cloud because you can build better features for users, basically, if you understand that. You can do a lot of stuff, particularly now that people are doing LLM stuff,

but you can do a lot of stuff if you get that and can be creative with it. So when you say clouds aren't magic because you're building a public cloud for developers and you go on to explain exactly how it works, what does that mean to you? In some ways, it means these all came from somewhere. Like there was a simpler time before clouds where we'd get a server at Rackshack and we'd SSH it or Telnet into it even and put files somewhere and run the web servers ourselves to serve them up to users. Clouds are not magic on top of that. They're just more complicated ways of doing those same things in a way that meets the needs of a lot of people instead of just one. One of the things I think that people miss out on, and a lot of this is actually because AWS and GCP have created such big black box abstractions.

Like Lambda is really black boxy. You can't like pick apart Lambda and see how it works from the outside. You have to sort of just use what's there. But the reality is like Lambda is not all that complicated. It's just a modern way to launch little VMs and serve some requests from them and let them like kind of pause and resume and free up like physical compute time. The interesting thing about understanding how clouds work is it lets you build kind of features for your users you never would expect it. And our canonical version of this for us is that like

when we looked at how we wanted to isolate user code, we decided to just expose this machines concept, which is a much lower level abstraction of Lambda that you could use to build Lambda on top of. And what machines are is just these VMs that are designed to start really fast or designed to stop and then restart really fast or designed to suspend sort of like your laptop does when it closes and resume really fast when you tell them to. And what we found is that giving people as primitive is actually, there's like new apps being built that couldn't be built before, specifically because we went so low level

and made such a minimal abstraction on top of generally like Linux kernel features. A lot of our platform is actually just exposing a nice UX around Linux kernel features, which I think is kind of interesting. But like you still need to understand what they're doing to get the most use out of them. Very cool.

Okay, so experience the magic of Fly and get told the secrets of Fly because that's what they want you to do. They want to share all the secrets behind the magic of the Fly cloud, the cloud for productive developers, the cloud for developers who ship. Learn more and get started for free at fly.io. Again, fly.io. All right, man. Here we are.

State of the log. Can you believe it? I can't believe it. You know, I listened to last year's in prep for this one. You did? Yeah, I went to sleep to that last night. You might be more prepared than I am then. Cause I did not.

I wouldn't call that prepared really. I, at first glance as a consumer of podcasts, I looked at the chapter list and it, it was like a voicemail reaction of voicemail, voicemail reaction of voicemail. So like the chapters weren't really indicative of the content. That was okay.

So it was a different vibe, but then also audibly a very different vibe. We did some list different last year, you know, and we're going to carry it through this year too. So we appreciate that. We did some things different. We did other things, the same listener voicemails, reactions to listener voicemails. That's been a thing for a few years now. And then picking our favorites is we've always done that. Only we're going to hold off our favorites to the end. Now, I'm just going to foreshadow a little bit. I'm going to say this.

I think you're going to like this. I'm going to do something unprecedented. When we get to our picks. You're going to have a list? An actual list that's longer than mine? This has never happened before. And it may never happen again. Okay.

So there's a little bit of a teaser. One thing I thought would be cool. I'm not sure I like that, honestly. A little mini game. Ooh. Because our listeners are all going to pick their favorite episodes on their voicemails. And the question, and of course, you have some prepared. How many did you pick?

Just give me a number. What'd you bring? Of favorite episodes? Yeah, me a number. What'd you bring? Of favorite episodes? Yeah, yeah. 15. What? Okay, 15. I'm joking because last year I said 11,

and I actually, because I just listened back, I laughed at myself because you said, how many do you have? And I was like, dramatic pause. Right. 11. And it was a lot. You know, 11's a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, I got to trump that number, 15. So 15. All right. So in honesty, I have five favorites, four honorable mentions,

and then I picked my favorite titles. I have of that list, six best titles. So here's the mini game. How many of our favorites are going to cross over with listener favorites? Meaning if we were to scratch out our favorites, each time they were mentioned by somebody else first, how many do you think we'll have at the end? How many unique to you and or me

do your own? I'll do my own. I have five favorites and four honorable mentions. This number that we choose is a secret too. We're going to reveal it later. No, we're going to reveal it right now. It's a mini game. We're going to guess and then we'll see if we're right. Okay. I will say all of them. All of them.

So you have how many? I'm going 100%. 100% crossover or 100% unique? Truth be told, I'm still making my list. Okay. Truth be told, I'm still making my list. So you're not repaired at all. Okay.

So we can't play this game because your list changes throughout the show is that what's happening that's true I can cheat okay I can cheat

you know the problem is there's just so many good ones that's so I started making a list and I was like okay that was a good one okay that was a good one

okay that was a good one right and I just had a really hard time making an actual list this year because like there's a lot of good stuff.

All right. Well, minigame canceled because your list changes throughout the show. Fair enough. There were a lot. And in fact, I did a sequel query. I think we have 101 episodes to pick from between interviews and friends. Yes. So, I mean, it's tough to pick five out of 101 or even 15.

But let's get into it, shall we? Let's do it. All right. Listener voicemails. Thank you so much to our listeners. We have the coolest community, even BMC,

just this morning was saying, let me see if I can quote BMC. Break massive cylinder. I was thanking BMC for making all these remixes and telling them it makes this episode extra special for us and our listeners.

And BMC said, I really like it. You got a whole community thing going on, which is kind of how BMC types. And that's true. We have a cool community thing going on and we appreciate that. It makes not just this episode awesome, but really what we do awesome. So thank

you to everybody who called in. We have 12 voicemails, same as last year. And we have one person who sent theirs in at the last minute. And if you listen to last year's, you already know who that person is. We'll save them to the end because, you know, they deserve it. So let's get straight into it. Our first caller in is AJ Kerrigan. Ooh. Hi, Adam. Hi, Jared. It's a mother rando named AJ Kerrigan.

There was a bit of a theme to some of my favorite episodes this year. They talked about taking control of your own workspace, your tools, your environment, and thinking through what's important to you. And that could be starting at the hardware level, the lowest level. The interview with Kyle from iFixit or with Erez from ZSA about customizable ergonomic keyboards, that's building a solid base. And then moving up the stack to the OS, the Linux discharge episode with George Castro on ShipIt was another fantastic one. And what a lot of my favorite episodes this year had was some great Zulip chat. Moving to Zulip,

the episode about Zulip, and then also seeing the ChangeLog community move to Zulip chat. Moving to Zulip, the episode about Zulip, and then also seeing the changelog community move to Zulip was a great experience. As a listener, it's definitely much easier to keep track of chats now. And I love it, seeing the engagement from the Zulip team, hearing that hard P from Adam that now I've started doing, Zulip. So thanks for another great year. I got a remix last year, so please do not bother including me this year. I just wanted to get some voice out to you all and say well done i appreciate what you're doing i like being a changelog subscriber and i don't see that changing and i'll see you all in zulip going forward thanks good job aj i like that oh man zulip for the win zulip for the win for the win remixes for the win

so we appreciate you saying don't remix this but you know we don't take orders around here AJ and we do what we want It's like saying when you edit that out you're going to leave it in Yeah exactly, it's like Matt Reier saying edit that out You're getting a remix, gosh darn it but yeah, okay

so you have a moving list of episodes but I'm guessing I Fix It We Have a Right to Repair that had to be on your list, right, Adam? It was. Actually, both of those were. Open Source Threaded Chat, Team Chat was on my list. Yeah, so far, 100% of AJ's picks are at least your pick. I also had one of those, so we may not have anything left at the end. And if you know the reference, Adam, some other rando, AJ was referencing our secondary theme song, our alt theme song, which is called Your Favorite Ever Show.

Yes. And BMC took that reference and ran with it. Here is AJ Kerrigan's BMC remix. Finally, it's time for Change Logging Friends with Adam and Jared. I don't like that theme and I don't see that changing, so I gotta fix it starting at the lowest level. That's building a solid bass. Adam and Jared and some other rando. Rando-do-do-do-do.

This is how we party! Another fantastic remix by A.J. Kerrigan. So dope. Oh, and the late, is that a vuvuzela? The late siren. You know, having heard that remix, I have to say that I have purposefully, behind the scenes, not listened to any of these. So that I can have in the moment. I know you have, and I thank you for doing all the prep of this, you know, all that behind

the scenes, love, care, attention, so that I don't have to burst the bubble for myself. I can live in the moment in this podcast. So I appreciate that. That's right. You sit back, relax and enjoy. Yes. As Breakmaster Slender and I toiled over these, although I did very little work,

just criticism as we went and handing off of files and stuff like that. You had to create a type form. You had to promote it here and there. You had to talk to people in Zulip. Oh, that's true. You know, that's so much extra work involved.

I mean, it is work though. It's, it's the nurturing process of the things. Yes. All right. Thanks, AJ. That is awesome.

Next listener, somebody new, lots of familiar voices and names, but we have a new listener here calling in. Erno, now, you mentioned the type form. I do ask for pronunciation help, and this fellow's name is, I believe, Erno, now you mentioned the type form. I do ask for pronunciation help. And this fellow's name is, I believe, Erno, but his last name is V-O-U-T-I-L-A-I-N-E-N. Voutilainen? Voutilainen? I don't know. I don't know how to say it. And under the pronunciation help, he wrote E e as in enter but i'm fine with any

pronunciation so he gave us help on the first name erno well come on man i can't pronounce voodoo let's hear from erno dear adam and jared greetings from all the way from finland the land of the happiest people on planet as you might know. Just to clear the myth up front, I think the reason for our happiness is just the fact that everyone must be listening to the changelog, obviously. Or maybe it's just me and I'm weird, but honestly and sincerely, I love what you do. I've been listening for a few years already, so I decided it's about time to give you a personal hello and some cheers.

And what was the kicker for me to reach out was the very first episode of the year, where you dropped in the new beats. Honestly, I was shocked and I almost had to cry. They were so good, as Adam likes to put it. So gold. So back then in January, I also decided to see if the famous residency bias is a thing, what Jared wondered on the last state of the log and my conclusion for the year is that if it is recency bias I'm also susceptible to it or you by chance happen to put out the best content towards the end of the year so who knows.

So a few highlights for me this year in addition to the beats were the reappearance of Cameron Say on Chainsog on Friends episode 36 by the way I love the Changelog on Friends format please keep on coming then we got Matt Ryer's Sing It If You Know It a modern classic almost choked on my coffee while listening to that for the first time and finally two tickets for Departure Changelog Interview interviews 618 so thanks to you i'm now a happy departure mono user on my terminal and i'm loving it and i could of course include all the kaizen episodes the never-ending typescript arm wrestles between jared and nick all of adam's home labbing goodness the dan tans and the well you get the point so thank you so much for what you do. You have indeed befriended me and I'm here to stay.

Happy holiday season to you all and all the success on those pipe dreams for 2025. Thank you, Erno. That's a, wow. Dan tan. That's like a deep cut now. I was going to say that. My gosh. I was being quiet.

I was going to come in right away and just say there was so many deep cuts there. Yeah. You know,, there were. From Dan to the Homelab stuff to just all the details, man. That's cool. And some good picks as well. Cameron says return to the pod.

So many good picks. Two tickets for Departure. We have a Departure Mono convert. I'm not using Mono in my terminal. I tried it, and I've determined, maybe I shared this already, I determined that I don't like pixel fonts at the terminal level.

I like it in the editor more, but for something about in the terminal, it just looks a little too pixelated. So I'm over here on JetBrains Mono at this point, but that conversation actually got me to reevaluate my monospace font of choices and codingfont.com, which I put in news, and we were all playing with it. A lot of people chatting in Zulip were playing with that website.

Very cool. It's like a, not a hot or not, but what's the... Hot or not. Like a Royal Rumble of fonts. Sure. You put two fonts against each other, and then it sw swaps in another one and you just keep picking, picking. The Pepsi challenge, so to speak. Yeah.

And you can determine without knowing the names of the fonts and the stories which one you actually like the best. And that one landed me on JetBrains Mono. But I don't think, it's not comprehensive, like Departure Mono is not on there, for instance. Or at least it didn't come up in mine. Anyways, should we hear Erno's remix? I would like to. Dear Adam and Jared, greetings from Finland,

the land of the happiest people on planet. As you might know, the reason for our happiness is just the fact that everyone was listening to the new beats, obviously. They were so good. So good. Sing it if you know it. It almost sounds like he's saying for Linda.

For Lynn, for Lynn, for Lynn, for Linda. That could be like a new Finland anthem, you know, like maybe if they need a new national anthem, we could submit that one. Perhaps. I think a theme will hit this year with the remixes, at least that I know that you don't know because I've been listening to them

as we go. I think BMC has some new toys. You think so? Yes. Like a AI, like some, there's a more noises that don't come from the words of our actual listeners this year.

I think BMC's playing, like the Finlanda. That was not Erno. Or was it? It might be, actually. I don't think so. You can really push the voice. Maybe just taking Erno's voice and then just really stretching it.

Harmonics, timing. Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe. It's possible. We'll have to see. We'll have to get Breakmaster Cylinder on the pod in the new year. That's easy. And discuss some stuff because that's what we did last year. Well, we'll probably have a new album next year. So that's breaking news. We have been working on our fourth. You call it a studio

album when the studio is Breakmaster Cylinder's studio by himself. I don't know. It's a new studio album. Our fourth Changelog Beats. And it'll be coming out next year. So, teaser. And we'll certainly get BMC on

after that one drops, right? Alright, listener voicemail number three. This is Don McKinnon. Hey Jared, Adam, and everyone at ChangeLog. My favorite episode of 2024 was the ChangeLog and Friends episode from Chef to System Initiative. I've been following Adam Jacob on social media for a while, and he's always a great guest. So it was interesting to hear more about his career journey that led him to where he is now with his new company.

And I did have to go back and watch Any Given Sunday after hearing that episode. I'd never seen it before. I also got a kick out of the Rails is Having a Moment Again episode. A lot of times I disagree with DHH, but regardless, he is always entertaining to listen to. Thank you for all the work you guys do on the podcast. It's one of my favorites. See, these are all on my list, Jared. Okay. So you're bad. And so you are, maybe you're right, 100%. We can just skip your section altogether at the end.

Yeah, maybe we could. I'd just be like, just listen to the show. That kind of thing. But that was a good show. Like I really wanted to do that show for a very long time. The Adam Jacob show. Yes, yes, yes. Every time we had Adam on the podcast,

I found myself biting my tongue to go into those depths, you know? Yeah. Cause it wasn't the point of the show, but I had curiosities and I figured, well, I'll just be patient. Cause eventually we'll get that,

uh, that time. I guess the only sad thing is that it ended up on change, like our friends and was more of a interview. So I kind of broke the system. Yeah. You even called it a different kind of friends episode at the opener. I'm like, the kind of a friends episode that's actually an interview. Well, you know.

Sometimes you got to blur your lines, you know. You have to. And I think that what I've learned from talking to listeners over the years is that their lines are very blurred for them so much so that they don't know the difference half the time. So it's probably more on us, although Don sure noticed where it landed. I liked that episode a lot, too. Obviously, I wasn't there, so I got to listen to it as a listener would. And I just loved some of the stories that came out, especially around the high school dropout move, the loophole. And some of the stuff early on in his career were fascinating to me so good

choice and of course dhh always delivers and so that was a good episode as well i don't want to call this out necessarily to try to embarrass adam but did you do you recall the part in the show where he almost cried no it was the was the first time in my ever interview history or career, whatever you want to call it, where I've actually gotten somebody. I don't even want to say it like that. It's not cool. Right. You're not getting them to it. I think you're trying.

Yeah, I'm not trying to do that. It's just I don't necessarily want to make him cry. Let's just say. But I do want to hear the good stuff. And he was sharing this really raw, emotional part of the chef history when he had to go out and in quotes or a version of quotes, paraphrase, command the troops, get them excited. And he just shared how he went back afterwards into his office and wept. And in the moment of sharing that story with me he's like i'm i'm like getting emotional he says you know and i'm there visually which is why i'm desperately wanting this video version of our show because there's there's things you miss

sure and as a listener of that show you only hear the audio as a person who's there in the moment we had to take a quick pause because he was he was getting he's getting emotional and the reason why i share that isn't it's not to expose that necessarily but to point it out because i got to see that and i felt like that was a raw real moment with adam in a conversation that was quite lengthy it's like two and a half hours i think real time maybe two-ish hours you know produced and that's why i like doing podcasting because you get that truly real truly authentic truly deep when you can go there kind of conversation that can only really happen in a podcast like that you are the bar Barbara Walters of our... Babwa Walters.

You like my impersonation? That was good. Babwa Walters. Alright, Don, BMC, hook them up. My favorite episode was from Chef to System Initiative. I've been following Adam Jacob

on social media for a while. I've been also following Adam Jacob to work, and I got kicked out of his company. So it was interesting to hear more about his career journey that led him to kick me out of his company. And I disagree with him, but regardless, he is always entertaining, and he is always kicking me out the goodness that break message only brings is just so good right i love the little uh is that like a cop cherry sound like the cops are there like you know that's what i figured when he

gets kicked out of his company like he calls the police on him you know oh yeah it's uh i don't think it's that i think it's that uh that whistle when you pull it out it it elongates the sound and when you push it in it might be the same thing that we're talking about but right i wasn't saying it's actually that sound i was saying like that's what it's reminiscent of i'm wondering if bmc was trying to imply that don mckinnon actually had to be arrested at System Initiative headquarters. It's quite possible, honestly. That'll make you cry. All right.

It's quite possible. Moving on to longtime listener, I believe new ChangeLog++ member, if this is indeed the same, Andrew O'Brien. Hey, Jared and Adam. Thanks for another year of great pod. Big thanks to Adam for giving me the push I needed to finally rewatch and finish Silicon Valley. Also, an apology. I'm sorry for ruining the whole Antarctic data center joke

in one of your fly.io ads. I asked follow-up questions and then it went away, so I feel responsible. Anyway, here's my message to anyone listening who has a professional development stipend to spend before year-end. Everyone knows that ChangeLog++ is better, but what my theory presupposes is that it's a membership that gets you more educational material, so work should pay for it.

Fill out that reimbursement form and get that warm, fuzzy feeling for supporting independent tech media. Thanks again, guys. Now, there has to be an inside story on this Antarctic code vault. So do you know Andrew and you were interviewing him for something or? No, this is disconnected. Okay. So for a bit there on the Fly homepage, it said, I can't recall how many continents are. Is there seven continents? I always forget. I'm too old to remember this stuff. There are seven continents, aren't there? Right. I believe there's seven. And they mention Antarctica coming soon.

Right. I thought as a joke, and I started saying that as part of the, you know, big thanks to our friends at Fly and partners at Fly. All right. Antarctica coming soon, you know. And I think that's what he's referencing. And I didn't take it away from that because he said something in Slack. I think it was Slack at the time. Oh, okay.

So he brought up in Slack and ruined the joke. Yeah. But he did ask if. I think it was Slack at the time. Oh, okay. So he brought up in Slack and ruined the joke. Yeah. But he did ask if, I think it was him. And Slack is a challenge because it's hard to find the right people, I suppose, over the years. But I think Zulip's a bit easier to catch with people because you see the thread longer.

It doesn't go away. It's not really ephemeral. So I don't really recall the conversation in Slack necessarily, but I do recall the conversation around speculation of if it truly was going to be in antarctica coming soon we speculated whether or not there was you know servers down there because there's bases down there etc if there truly is it down there flat earthers so that's what i thought you're gonna keep talking you just ended it. You just mic dropped on the flat earthers.

I dropped it on the flat earthers, man. Yeah. So, a couple of things. First of all, great idea. Thanks for promoting Andrew, the concept of having your employer pay for your ChangeLog++ membership. I mean, come on. This is continuing education at its core, is it not?

I mean, I think that's awesome. Do more of it. Great idea. Everybody who thinks of it thinks, why not? If you haven't thought of it, hopefully now you've thought of it. It's a win-win-win. I will shout out to Andrew for what I think is a Royal Tenenbaum's deep cut in the middle of one of his sentences, he says, my theory presupposes, which to me sounded very much like Owen Wilson on Royal Tenenbaums talking about Custer dying. I'm going from memory. It's like, everybody knows that Custer died at the Battle of Little Bighorn, something like that.

But what my book presupposes is maybe he didn't, something like that. Well, everyone knows Custer died at Little B Horn, but this book presupposes it. Maybe he didn't? So, Andrew, if that's indeed your reference, reference acknowledged, friend, and you have a Royal Tenenbaums fan here. If not, then I just completely read into something that didn't exist. And either way, go check out Royal Tenenbaums. Good movie. I've never watched that movie, I have to confess.

Do you like Wes Anderson? Maybe. Okay. What kind of movies has he directed? Royal Tenenbaums. Okay. That's a good one. Well, I guess we'll find out.

Bottle Rocket. Fantastic Mr. Fox. The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou. This is all from memory? Yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a Wes Anderson fan. Wow. I'm proud of you.

You're welcome. That should quickly LLM'd yourself or something. No, I'm just going from memory. Wes Anderson. He has a very specific style, a very specific taste, and all the same characters like Owen Wilson, Luke Wilson, Bill Murray, Angelica Houston, like these people, Jason Schwartzman. He has all the same actors, George Clooney, in his movies all the time.

And I just watched Fantastic Mr. Fox with my family a few weeks back and that movie completely holds up I just utterly enjoyed it I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to circle back so I I resisted the real the royal tenenbaums I thought it looked maybe strange also 2001 wasn't the year I was watching a lot of movies. It is strange. It takes a specific taste. I think you either love Wes Anderson movies or you hate them because they're shot in a specific way. In fact, Adam Lissagor, here's another foreshadow,

and I were talking about how I felt like his commercials, like a lot of the sandwich films, were borrowing prompts. Not prompts, but homages to Wes Anderson he's like yeah totally wow he shoots in a very he has his choreography it's amazing but it's also like very opinionated and specific and so if you don't like that style and the humor is very subdued and somewhat intellectual and so it's not like a Tommy boy you know it's like it gets funnier the more you think about it when the first time you hear it like this is ridiculous so it's not like a Tommy Boy, you know? It's like, it gets funnier the more you think about it, but the first time you hear it, like, this is ridiculous. Like, it's just so stupid. So I'm not saying that you'll necessarily love Royal Tenenbaums, but if you watch it,

it's well-made, so you at least appreciate the craft, and if you enjoy it, there's a whole bunch of movies waiting for you. Just like it, or versions of it. I do recall the Grand Budapest Hotel being promoted yeah was that a good one that's a good one it's not my favorite i think tenenbaums is a more approachable movie to start with okay fantastic mr fox because it is animated okay a great music by the way it's very approachable kid friendly yes we watched it with our whole. There are a few things that are like adult things, but they just fly right over the kid's head. It's not like the whole movie is like that,

but there are moments where you're like, hmm, this is kind of mature, but the kids just don't notice it. This isn't the best place to go for this, but it's one of the places I go to it. But if I want to know if I can trust this for my kid, I do use IMDB's section where it talks about parental spots it's like it's like as you scroll the profile page for a movie title there's a section that talks about the different things

that appear in the movie specifically for parents to you know gauge whether they should or should not like nudity violence violence, et cetera. Yeah. There's also like specific websites that are watching one that I don't know if this is good anymore, but used to be good. It was called kids in mind and they actually watch and review movies with kids in mind. And they will tell you almost to an extreme level where they're like every single thing that happens that might be something you might want to know about prior to the kids watching it. And so in the past i have used that i know there's other ones do you recall the uh

a female in the movie being called the town tart in her youth yeah okay they highlighted that as sex immunity right which is cool it's called the parental guide she's the town tart she's the town tart that goes right over their head, doesn't it? They're like, what's a tart? Why would the town have a tart? Like Pop-Tarts? What are they talking about? Yeah, sure.

Pop-Tarts are sweet. All right. So anyways, we could have just created an entire tangent around something Andrew wasn't referring to. But if you were indeed referring to a quote from Royal Tenenbaums, reference acknowledged. All right. Here is Andrew's Breakmaster Cylinder remix. Hey Jared and Adam, thanks for another year

ruining Silicon Valley. Big thanks to Adam for giving me the push I needed to also ruin Silicon Valley. Anyway, here's my message to everyone listening. Silicon Valley. Also, an apology. I'm sorry for my message to everyone listening.

I feel responsible. And you should. So many dings. Well, I told BMC you literally can't have enough dings. Literally cannot. So yeah, I mean, in a sense, maybe we have ruined Silicon Valley, but also maybe in a sense we brought it back. Yeah, I think we've we've been uh responsible for

a lot of hbo subscriptions i think so we should get an hbo max affiliate code or something we really should like every time you stream that there should be a royalty like an adam and jared royalty i would just take a uh a 4k version of the entire series you don don't have that? They didn't shoot in 4K? Well, if you recall, Christina Warren, if you recall, she and I, or at least she was, and we were both lamenting, at least I was lamenting this, the studios purposefully withhold the higher resolution versions on disc. They make you subscribe to the service

to get the higher resolution. So there's lots of Seinfeld even, I believe, in DVD quality. Like, come on. For real? Not even Blu-ray quality. DVD quality. You're about to get Rage Monster out. Let's not do this.

Let's move on. Tone it down. Hold still. Yes. This is supposed to be a happy time, you know? State of the law. It is supposed to be a happy time. But I don't believe that we've break-messed the cylinder.

We did not ruin Silicon Valley. Thank you for all the dings. No, Andrew O'Brien ruined it. He feels responsible. Did he actually say that in his actual voicemail, though? I don't think he did. Did he? No, he said that you caused him to go watch Silicon Valley.

Right. And then BMC remixed his words. That's right. Yeah. That's what I was thinking. I mean, that's what you sign up for around here. It's a remix, you know? We're going to hijack what you say and make you say something different.

I mean, pretty much. Don McKinnon around here. It's Remix, you know? We're going to hijack what you say and make you say something different. I mean, pretty much. Don McKinnon just told a story about how he got arrested at System Initiative headquarters, you know? And he doesn't agree with Adam. I don't think that really happened. No, I don't believe that happened at all. Let's hope not. We'll have to confirm. Silicon Valley.

Well, friends, this is the last chance you have to get the 8Sleep Pod 4 Ultra in your hands, in your bedroom before Christmas. Go to 8sleep.com slash changelog and use the code changelog if you need to, to get $350 off your very own Pod 4 Ultra. I've never had better sleep. I love this thing. I sleep on it every single night. My wife and I, we absolutely love what it does for our sleep. So what exactly is the Pod? Imagine a high-tech mattress cover that you can easily add to any bed. And this isn't just any cover though. It's packed with sensors, heating and cooling elements. It's all controlled by sophisticated AI algorithms, and it's all designed to give you better sleep.

It's like having a sleep lab, a smart thermostat, and a personal sleep coach all rolled into a single device and no wearables required. It uses a network of sensors to track a wide variety of biometrics while you sleep, sleep stages, heart rate variability, that's so important, respiratory rate, temperature, and so much more. The best part, it does all this without you having to wear any devices. Again, no wearables. And the accuracy rivals what you would get in a professional sleep lab. The pod uses precision temperature control to regulate your body's sleep cycles. It can cool you down to a chilly 55 degrees Fahrenheit or warm you up to 110 Fahrenheit. And it does this separately for each side of the bed. This means that you and your partner can each have your own ideal sleep temperature going on. And the really, really cool part is the pod uses AI and machine learning to learn how you sleep, to learn your

sleep patterns over time. And it uses this data to automatically adjust the temperature of your bed throughout the night to fine-tune how you sleep, to give you more REM sleep, to give you deeper sleep. And that's the part I love most. And all this functionality is accessible through their awesome mobile app. You get detailed sleep analytics, trends over time, and even a daily sleep fitness score. Again, go to 8sleep.com slash changelog. Use our code changelog. Get $350 off your very own Pod4Ultra. Do it now. Sleep well for Christmas. Again, 8sleep.com slash changelog. And also by our

friends over at Wix, I've got just 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio, the web platform for freelancers, agencies, and enterprises. So here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less on Studio. Number one, integrate, extend, and write custom scripts in a VS Code-based IDE. Two, leverage zero setup dev, test, and production environments. Three, ship faster with an AI code assistant. And four, work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack. Wix Studio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Well, my time is up, but the list keeps going on. Step into Wix Studio and see for yourself.

Go to wix.com slash studio. Once again, wix.com slash studio. Once again, wix.com slash studio. All right, next up, an old voice, Jarvis Yang. I think Jarvis calls in every year and gives us shout outs, but also gives other people shout outs. And this is no different here. Jarvis is going to shout out us as well as somebody else here he is nyajong changelog that's hello and mong as the year comes to a close i wanted to give a big shout out to both the ship it podcast and prime digital

academy when i started diving into devops ship it became my go-to resource gearheart adam and jared you've all taught me so much and had a huge impact on my journey. Thank you for everything. I also want to recognize Prime Digital Academy, which, after 10 incredible years, is closing its doors. Prime was where my second career in software development began and helped me through some of the toughest times in my life. Gave me an amazing supportive community and lifelong connections. A special shout out to my at bash cohort. Ooh, ha ha.

And of course, to Mary and Christy. Thank you for being such inspiring mentors. It's bittersweet to say goodbye to both Prime and the Ship It podcast, but the impact you've made will stay with me and so many others. Thank you for being such a big part of my journey. There's an obvious thing here, right?

I mean, are you going to say that? Go ahead. What is Prime Digital Academy? First time hearing about this. Did I miss something? No, this was a bootcamp that Jarvis went to. Okay. And just like last year, Jarvis shouted out,

I think it was like Minnesota Gophers or something. Like he likes to give shout outs. And so he gives ShipIt a shout out, and then he gives Prime Digital Academy, which is a software engineering boot camp that helped Jarvis launch his career. And it's closing down after 10 years. And so there's some alignment there with ShipIt being retired now. I see. There. There's your connection.

Oh, okay. That makes more sense. I was like, gosh. Okay. I thought we were getting credit's your connection. Oh, okay. That makes more sense. I was like, gosh, I thought we were getting credit where credit was not due or conflation. I was like, what is going on here? I'm down. I'm on the webpage, primeacademy.io, by the way. They're in the mix of the IOs that may get repurposed. We'll see. And I'm on the about page and I'm like, meet our team. I'm like, I don't know any of these people. Where's the connection? Please help me. So anyways, that's it.

So Jarvis then sent me this note in addition to the audio submission. Glad to hear that ShipIt is getting its spinoff and looking forward to more of the dynamic duo, Justin and Autumn. So yes, ShipIt will have a continuity, will have a continuation as a different pod called FAFO, Fork Around and Find Out. And then he says for context, ooh-ha-ha, which you heard him say ooh-ha-ha. Yeah, I did say it.

Was his cohort's call-out on campus. So they would say that to each other. And so he was giving them a call-out. All right. Can I share a call-out that I used to do back in the day? Roo-ha? No, this is going to be, this can be epic. Okay. I like it.

This can be epic. This should be clip. V-I-C-T-O-R, Victor. V-I-C-T-O-R, Victor. You mess with the best, you die like the rest. Victor what? Victor what? Wow. It's not my best rendition, but it's a pretty good one. Say more. wow that's not my best rendition but it's a pretty good one say more the context i was in the military of course and the military is an alphabet a through z just like anybody else but v is victor so when you do the phonetic alphabet yeah at least the military version of it alpha bravo bravo charlie Echo, all the things. You know, Foxtrot, all through V, which is Victor.

And so I was in Victor Company. Oh. And so every company is charged with creating their own thing to kind of get the hype. Kind of like this ooh-ha-ha thing. Except for that one's shorter, right? Yeah. And so it was Victor Company. V-I-C-T-O-R.

Love it. Yeah. You should send that to your old Victor Company, V-I-C-T-O-R. Love it. Yeah. You should send that to your old Victor Company colleagues. What do you call them? Colleagues. Troops, I guess. Soldiers. Yeah, your fellow soldiers.

Yeah, fellow soldiers. But you mess with the best, you down like the rest. Victor what? Victor what is the clincher. Love it. All right. Jarvis, remixed. Ooh-ha-ha.

The year comes to a close. It had a huge impact on my journey. The toughest times in my life. Me and Mason's work community, my long connection, and any such inspiring interest, bittersweet to say goodbye. And that you've made those days with me, and so many others. There you go. I don't know about you, but I've got my scalp massager out. And I'm thoroughly, just thoroughly just relaxed.

I was going to say, it reminds me of like, you're about to get hypnotized. And they're like, you are floating off into sleep. Yes. There are no problems in your life. You are weightless as you float on a cloud. Yeah. Well, you know, even BMC has a softer side. Yeah.

I dig it. And so does Jarvis. Yeah. I dig it. All right. We move onward and upward. Here's Brett Cannon. Hi, Adam and Jared.

Congratulations again on another banger of a year for the changelog. For my highlights of 2024, the Cannon breakdown into themes. Probably the first thing was hardware episode 608 for interviews with building customizable ergonomic keyboards with everett zuckerman of zsa i thought that was really cool to hear their ethos and approach to making keyboards that last and can last for a long time interviews episode number 592 uh from sun to oxide with brian candrell was great just for the stories alone also with what what Oxide is trying to do with hardware. And then finally for hardware was interviews episode number 582, We Have a Right to Repair with Kyle Waynes.

I also say that's the most expensive episode for me personally because it led to me buying an iFixit repair kit, and it has actually been very helpful. So thank you, Adam, for that recommendation. The next theme is languages. No shot coming from me. Interviews episode number 611, FreeThreaded Python with my friends Pablo and Lukasz from the Core.py podcast was obviously a lot of fun to hear someone else interview them for a change.

And then also, ChangeLogin for Ads episode number 28, gradually typing Elixir, which is kind of cool to hear Jose talk about how Elixir is trying to bring in typing after having seen how Python tried to pull it off. The third theme was operating systems. Actually, in ShipIt, episode number 122 with Linux distros with Jorge Castro, it was kind of cool to hear how Universal Blue is trying to use containers to make operating systems a bit easier to work with from a Linux perspective.

And then it was great to hear, let's talk FreeBSD finally from Changelog Interviews number 574 with Alan Jude because FreeBSD, I don't think it's enough play in the world. Theme number four was apps with ChangeLog and Friends episode 35 with the Obon Pros. It was cool to hear Shannon Parker Silbert talk about how they make Obon Pro work as a business. And also, personally, it was kind of a fun episode because it was the first time I was out with an extended walk with my son by myself and trying to keep him calm with mom not around. And then there was also why we need ladybird change all interviews number 604 and with andreas cling and chris winstroth

and how trying to make browsers extremely hard and then finally the fifth uh theme is people and uh that was uh from change log interviews so number 595 with kelsey hightower talking retired but not tired and just hearing hearing Kelsey seemingly having a great time, no longer be constrained by the corporate world and getting to do what he truly wants to do. Once again, congrats again for a wonderful 2024 and look forward to 2025. Bye.

I'm thinking Brett just knocked out the rest of your list. Well, I was, I was pumping my fist on several of them, but I have to say that I'm not batting 1,000 now. It's a shame. There was two or several that were not on my list, and I'm sad now. Well, he did pick 10 episodes, so he's rivaling you in quantity.

Yes, true. Can we talk about BSD, or at least free BSD? Can we, or did we? Can we briefly? Sure. So I got excited about that afterwards. And I share Brett's excitement too. But then I got sad because it seems like free BSD is just not getting the love

because it's not the way I suppose Linux is. And there's the lack of support for certain things. And it's just hard. It's just hard to use. And so I think it has such good pure intentions but it doesn't get the same love that linux proper gets gets the same love in what way what do you mean love well obviously linux is you know one over it is what i mean by that but i think corporate love uh i think developer love you know really investment investment

potentially but i believe i can't recall in this moment i'll have to go back in my links and find it but i believe earlier this year there was talking there was talk about how freebsd wasn't supporting certain things and they were falling by the wayside and essentially like it seemed to me like if i was reading the tea leaves like pay less attention to it because it's just eventually going to always be this super minority. It's a niche. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you really got to want to feel the pain, I suppose.

Right. Or have already overcome the pain. That's why the reputation, and I brought that up, I think, on that episode, is that at BSD people are generally more expert because they have to be, and it's harder to use than Linux. Not necessarily because it's more complicated or wrong or anything, but just different and a smaller community.

So less helps, less investment, less support, et cetera. So sorry to hear that, but there's certainly people who love and use it and build cool things with it. That being said, you should check it out. I'm actually on hackaday.com on a post from this year, and at the very end, just scanning it, it says FreeBSD is here to stay.

So don't take it from me. I am not steeped in all the things. I'm not angry. You just tried it you hit some some bumps yeah you saw some people saying it was not going to be supported for whatever you're up to and it's like precisely it's kind of just the harder path in some cases than the straight not the straight and narrow than the mainstream path I mean that being said I did spin up zfs I did get a file server running i did do all

the things i intended to do do you remember where you got stuck i didn't get stuck i didn't actually have any issues with it personally but uh it was it was just this tension of what freebsd was supporting and what it wasn't supporting and how it was being supported and then you got true nas who moved away from freebsd to basically a Debian you know version and they're deprecating they're sort of maintaining the FreeBSD flavor but TrueNAS scale is the future of TrueNAS not that they're the

litmus test of FreeBSD dying or not it's just like well if the people making file system and a server can't build their future on FreeBSD then who can? Where does it really fit? And so that's what was making me think,

well, maybe it's just not worth my- It's not that they can't, it's that they chose a different way. Sure. Yeah. Fair enough. I had no problem with it. I loved it.

It was actually kind of fun, except it was limiting, you know, to me at some point. Now, do you recall Brett's voicemail last year? You probably just listened to it last night while you're going to sleep. Oh, yeah. Andrea, my wife, Andrea. All right.

Good. All right. Here we go. Here's Brett's remix from this year. Hi, I'm Edmund Juren. Congratulations again on another banger of a year for Changelog. For my highlights of 2024, a breakdown of the themes. Probably the first theme was hardware.

Episode 608 for interviews with Bill and Custom Raspel, ergonomic keyboards with Evan Zuckerman of CSA. I thought that was really cool to hear their ethos and approach to making keyboards that last and can last for a long time. Interviews episode number 5592 from Sonda Oxide with Brian Kendrill was great

just for the stories alone and also with what Oxide is trying to do with hardware. I'll also say i really enjoyed episode 558 uh with my wife andrea i want to give a shout out to my wife andrea andrea gotta give a shout out to my wife andrea oh man so good where else would you get that kind of goodness in life? I'm telling you. I mean, you put your spoon in to that cup, and you're coming out with goodness, okay?

Yum, yum, yum. Okay, so I'm digging what Breakmaster's doing on the voices stuff. That's pretty cool. I want more of that in our life. Right. I feel like these are proving grounds for for future coolness i was also thinking not this voicemail remix but the one prior it'd be kind of cool to also release a companion podcast that's just the voicemails as chat just like we did with the album i don't know if that would fit or not but i'm just thinking like it's a condensed version just listen to them all in

continuities like there you go boom yeah especially if we can't sleep at night you and i could just listen to people call us and say nice things about us. I mean, I feel bad about my life. Let me listen to this show. They love us. People like us. They really like us.

That was a good one, Brett. I liked that one a lot. Brett, thanks for, thanks for liking so many of our episodes. I mean, I gave it a hard time because you picked 10.

At least they were from this year. That's also a callback. And the fact that you like so many of our shows is kind of amazing, isn't it? I mean, I appreciate that. One in particular, if you don't mind. Go ahead, pick one, get into it. Change log interviews, episode 592, from sun to oxide. Epic. I thought he would pee himself. You thought Brian Cantrell was going to pee himself. I thought Brian would, well, he drank like three Diet Cokes or something like that,

like during the podcast. When you say epic, you mean it literally in terms of length. Oh yeah. It was long. I think it was as long as I could maybe have ever gone. Probably our longest episode. I think so. Honestly. That wasn't a, sometimes when we do anthologies, they get long, but single conversation. Yeah, let me, just for, I could sort by duration pretty easily.

I do have a, 153 minutes. That's two hours, 33 minutes. I do happen to have our database available to me. Okay.

And I can, Sort by length. Query it for, exactly. We have audio duration as a field and I will say order by audio duration okay, so in terms of audio duration, if we take out the anthologies, which was Adam's brilliant idea I hadn't thought of it

and limit it to this year, the longest episode was From Sun to Oxide with Brian Cantrell. So yes, the longest episode of the year, except for Microsoft is all in on AI part two, which had three interviews on it. Now that's this year. Should I pull out this year and just see of all time? Let's see of all time now.

Boom, 708 rows. This is from interviews and friends all time. And the longest episode of all time is from sun to oxide with Brian Cantrell. So there you go. Confirmed. Yeah. I mean, I thought he was going to burst. And the second longest that's not an anthology is from chef to system initiative, which we

already covered. So these deep dives expect more like this, I think next year. Adam going deep one-on-one. So deep. It's like founder's talk on the changelog. It's beautiful. It is beautiful. Some would say it's better. Especially when the ads are removed.

Because it's even shorter. Because it's long enough. Yes, truth. Moving on to our next voicemail. This is Nabil Suleiman. Hello, Adam and Jared. Congratulations on another great year. Really, so many of the episodes on the changelog are amazing,

but really ones that have stuck out to me, especially just looking through the list of episodes this year, really anything with Kelsey Hightower or the Oxide folks have just been great episodes and I've really enjoyed them. I also really liked the Moneyball episode. It was just a nice exploration of entrepreneurship and software that doesn't necessarily have to be like a rocket ship startup.

Other episodes, the Bobiverse books, you know, and the talk about that. I listened to those books this year and really enjoyed them all. I'm kind of sad I listened to them a little too fast and finished them all in about a week. The ergonomic keyboards episode was great. The right to repair episode was really great. And I think there were several episodes on home lab things. And I really like those two. For me, the changelog is a big source of discovery for new types of software and things like that that I had never heard of before. This year, it was Zulip, I think, in particular. And it was great timing because I was getting tired of Slack and the other mainstream chat platforms.

And yeah, Zulip was just a nice breath of fresh air. And yeah, I've really, really liked using it. From other years, especially, Doppler and NATS were two pieces of software that are still a very big part of my software systems now. And I really appreciate being, you know, introduced to these softwares through your podcast. Anyways, thanks again for a great year, and I'm looking forward to the next. I dig it because Nabil was, he started the WordPress drama thread, by the way, and has been consistently posting in there and that's been going on for a while

so much so that I'm scrolling back so September 21st Nabil posted odd drama going on in the WordPress land, thoughts, and linked out to like two ex-posts and then yes, Don McKinnon just after that so maybe that was where you were connecting it a little behind the scenes there but yeah

dig those. I mean, thanks for listening. So awesome. Yeah. And being in Zulip. That's right. And joining us there and threading up the threads. I like to hear stories like this one

where it's like, I found cool technology because of the show. I adopted cool technology. Now my life is better because of cool technology. For me, that's kind of what we are all about is like finding cool stuff showing it to people talking about it that's a win

it's a big win yeah it's always been this spotlight kind of nature behind the scenes this exposure this where is the light less shined and shine it there and see what's over there and sometimes it's not so much duds but like just cool stuff but not so interesting yeah uh and then sometimes it's like wow there was a

diamond in the rough over there and we found that thing and now it's like boom it's yeah you know all the places doing all the things like zulip clean it off shine it up you know hanging out in zulip and baba verse oh yeahverse has got to be exposed there. It's not software, but it is book. Books. Certainly on your list, Tennessee Taylor episode. Yeah. It is on my list.

How does it feel that your list is almost entirely predictable? Well, do you got any surprises in there? I don't know. I mean, is that a good thing or a bad thing? What do you think? Well, that's why I asked you how you feel. I don't know if it's good or bad. I feel like that means that I'm probably in alignment with our audience.

No, I mean, not predictable by them, by me. Like, I know which ones you're going to pick. It's just because I know you so well. Well, I'm cool with that. There you go. That's what I mean. I dig it. Okay, good.

So do I. Here's Nabil's remix. This year, kind of sad. I think there were no episodes on rocket ships. I really like those. I think there were no episodes on rocket ships i really like those i think there were several episodes on software things never rocket ships entrepreneurship great anything with ships but really so many of the episodes are about software things like that that i had never heard of before that doesn't necessarily have to be like a you know podcast i really like rocket ships that doesn't necessarily have to be like a, you know, podcast.

I really like rocket ships. It's got some Donkey Kong vibes. I was just going to say that. Yeah. Donkey Kong, yep. The other vibe I get is Rain Man. Didn't that kind of have like Rain Man vibes? I just really like rocket ships, just the way say that. Yeah. Donkey Kong. Yep. The other vibe I get is Rain Man. Didn't that kind of have like Rain Man vibes? I just really like Rocket Ships.

Just the way he remixed it. Yes. The obsession with a specific thing. Tropical Freeze. We need a new version of Tropical Freeze. I am down. I am. DK for life. I am 100% down.

Yeah. For some more DK. All day. All day. DK all day, man. That's what I always say. So I've been listening to some synthwave remixes

of, I guess, gamey soundtracks remixed, like synthwave style. And Donkey Kong Country, et cetera, translates very well. Retro Kid on YouTube.

Check them out. Amazing. Yeah. Code to those beats. Nice. And I've archived them to my Plex, by the way. Did you try out Archivebox? No, I have a Plex. So I've just been Plexing

it. But the principles of Archivebox have crept into my life. Right. Well, you had mentioned that maybe you were working too hard and this might be easier, but you already have it solved. Yeah. I already have the software and I already have an uptime guarantee on it and etc. So I'm just Plexing it essentially. I'm just moving it into my music category in Plex and I go to RetroKid and I push play and all the albums just queue up and I work.

Sweet. And there's a good Zelda track in there. So you would be... Bring it bring it yeah you'd love it i'm currently playing the playing the new zelda echoes of wisdom where you get to play as zelda herself my little daughters love it and we are playing it right now it's a classic zelda exactly what you'd expect so far we're about 45 minutes in so i can't review it entirely but so far so good who's this it's our old friend lars wickman hi this is lars wickman a long-time listener occasional guest i recently did my pocket casts wrapped type of deal and three of my top

four most frequently listened podcasts had the same theme as in visual theme as in dark with neon green colors and to most people maybe the changelog does not have that for changelog plus plus members it does and of course it's better but yeah the other ones are acquired and oxide and friends and you've done the oxide and friends crossover when i appreciate it greatly so acquired crossover next maybe that'd be cool and aside from that i really appreciated the episodes with the beatmaster breakmaster cylinder i'm sorry and since went to bandcamp and picked up his back catalog for not that much money. And now I have a bunch of his hits, among others, Change Log Dance Party,

burned out on minidisc and I play them in my office. So that's what I'm up to. What do you think about that, Adam? Maybe getting Acquired in 25 on the show? I'm down. I'm on the.fm right now, acquired.fm, checking it out. I've heard of the show. I haven't listened to too many of them.

It's very popular. I haven't listened to it either, but people love it. I think they're doing a good job. I'm down. Crossover away. Let's do it. We'll see if they're down. You know, I'm seeing their about page,

and it seems like they're maybe on a stage. I think this next year, I want to call it a conference, but it would be cool to do a live podcast, like sell tickets, do a live podcast. That'd be kind of cool. Have you seen this where there's like the, the thing that podcasters are doing?

I'm wondering if, could we sell 50 tickets? Maybe I wouldn't sell 50 in a city. I think if you went to like New York or San Francisco or Austin, Austin, even maybe Austin, Austin, even maybe Austin. Austin's kind of small though. It's big, small.

Yeah. But it's tech big to a certain extent. Yeah. I suppose Elon's doing something. And it's centrally located. Like people will fly maybe. Or drive. I mean, it is my backyard, so I'm down.

I mean, SF would be much easier though. I just have less hope that we have a ton of listeners here. I think we have more based on our stats. I've shipped out some shirts and some other merch lately and I'm telling you Texas listens. Okay. Alright. I'm wrong then. I love it. Not necessarily wrong

I'm just saying there are some people there. Anywho yeah that would be cool. I also think it's super rad that Losh is creating mini discs of BMC beats and stuff and listening to them on mini disc. I mean, analog, I mean, not literally analog, but like real life for the win. Real life for the win. Hardware, physical media for the win is what I meant to say.

Yeah, physical media is cool. I don't know if I like physical media personally. I think it's cool but like maybe not good take it's cool but maybe not y'all didn't see his face he was struggling to figure out what to say and he came up with good take well I was about to opine then I'm like I'm just gonna leave it

good take oh gosh you should opine at least a sentence I like physical things I of course also lived through a time period where I was digitizing all my things I don't like to print but I, of course, also lived through a time period where I was digitizing all my things. I don't like to print, but I also kind of think printing's cool now.

So it's like, what's old is new again. And I think that physical media has a tangibility to it that we desire. And so in that way, it is cool. Obviously, there's lots of drawbacks. You know, your dog eats it or something. My vehicle can't play it it's useless to me in like the places i consume content well how about a record player like in your house

do you think that would be cool i would love a record player so that's cool i would i would go there yeah yeah that's kind of what he's doing it sounds like with mini discs you know okay that's cool then okay i'll take it back then i need more content i'm glad i opined i'm down for that kind of thing like i want a listening room Jared this is like intentional listening I feel like is what he's doing which is very much

what a record player is like it's like I'm going to listen to this now yeah it's not like oh let's just cue up artists right let me just download this off YouTube

and just throw it on my plaques and get to work no this is like let's sit down and enjoy some Breakmaster Cylinder Beats alright Losh remix him

hi this is Losh Wieckmann long time listener occasional guest Let's sit down and enjoy some Breakmaster Cylinder beats. All right, Lars, remix them. Hi, this is Lars Wikman, a long-time listener, occasional guest. I really appreciated the episodes with Breakmaster Cylinder. And went to band camp and picked up his back catalog. And now I have a bunch of his hits for not that much money i have among others and and gosh i had a dance party in my office that's what i'm up to i have a dance party in my office that's what i'm up to so i can say that the i don't know if this is how your household went jared but the moment

that dance party was on the actual uh i guess proverbial airwaves like on spotify i was like okay that's when it's real yeah and you know know, obviously we QA'd it. We kind of like previewed some things, but I didn't listen to it with intention and enjoyment and motion, like body motion, until it was on Spotify. And the moment it was, I Q'd it up and legit me and the kids just danced. They mainly danced a lot. I just like moved a little, you know. They were really having a lot of fun for the whole thing. We just listened end to end the entire album.

It was awesome. Yeah, it's just a cool thing to have that be real. I definitely got cooler in my kids' eyes when we had some actual beats like on Apple Music and Spotify even though we were not the artist we were just the curators of this music just a vessel we're a vessel for which these things

came we were part of the creative process you know but bmc does all the all the creation true creation yeah and i will say that like that that dracula's purse you know like that sound just immediately triggers in a good way me and my kids and, and it's just like, yeah, here we go. Which I think Dracula's Purse is, which is the first real track off of Next Level, the video game inspired one. I think that's our most listened to track on the proverbial airwaves. It's the most popular one now. It makes sense because the Castlevania soundtrack was just phenomenal. Yeah.

And Draculous Purse is obviously an homage to Draculous Curse, which was the true music that came from the video game that literally everybody loves way more than Zelda. Ha! Just saying. Just saying. We could take a poll. I think you might lose that one. It would probably lose. It would. Just saying. We could take a poll. I think you might lose that one.

It would probably lose. It would. No offense. It's just not as popular. It's more of a cult classic. It's a dang shame. Hey, man. I love Castlevania.

So you're not going to get me to disagree. Although, the fact that you don't like Zelda. I do like Zelda. I just never got into it as much. Right. That's all. Fair enough. I identified more so with Castlevania. You know, it just had different

touch points, I suppose. It might have been the first NES game I'd maybe bought or there was some connection to it where it was up there more than Zelda. And I also grew up poor, so I don't think I was able to afford Zelda for many years. I think I had to play my friends.

It was gold, so it was cool. It had the gold cartridge, but it didn't cost any more than the other games. Yeah, it was super cool. I didn't have the bling to get the thing. Sorry. You had to settle for Castlevania. Alright, moving on. Here comes

Nick Neesey. My favorite episodes of the Changelog are the ones where Adam and Jared just let loose and just get so excited about the topics that they're discussing. That's things like Homelab for Adam. His face just lights up. You can hear it in his voice. He gets very excited about that. And the same thing goes for Jared when it comes to TypeScript. He just can't control how excited he is about Type safe JavaScript. And it really shows in the podcasts. Aside from that, I really enjoyed hanging with you guys at that conference in January, seeing you work the hallway and get amazing interviews from attendees and speakers and playing a really fun game of JS Danger.

That was so fun. Thank you for all that you do. And I am very much looking forward to what this new changelog podcast universe is all about. So much emotion, Nick. I appreciate that. Nick brings it. He does bring it. So then I'm thinking like, okay, he was joking about you, obviously, because you hate TypeScript.

So was he joking about you? Or at least you do on a podcast. And I'm thinking like, maybe he thinks I don't like Homelab and he's's not telling the truth about me i think he was being sincere with yours and joking with mine gotcha it's part of the shtick right it's a setup see he set it up yes right nick's a showman you know good one he knows how to set it up and knock it down i really you know i think that was the first time i met nick yeah well no, I met Nick back at the JS conference back in Nebraska times. The very first Nebraska JS conference, yeah.

Yeah. And we've obviously digitally hung out. Right. Zooms and Riversides and podcasts. I don't think you guys hung out back in that. We were very busy. There were so many balls in the air between organizing the conference

and trying to do Beyond Code, the video thing we're up to, it was just a, it was a whirlwind. We should bring that back just, just for fun to see what people who never saw that just to get a glimpse of like the, the experiments,

you know, the trials and tribulations. Right. It's out there. It's, there's a playlist on our YouTube. I'm not going to link to it directly, but it's there.

I'm not going to link to it directly. You will not get a link from me. It was the very first change long films effort i think yes it was uh i do want to say though about nick he's actually pretty cool he's actually pretty cool surprise surprise yeah except for the whole typescript thing i just don't understand why why the love why the fanaticism you know well there's some things you just don't understand. Why? Why the love? Why the fanaticism? You know, there's some things you just can't know. It's like, you know, TypeScript is kind of the Java of JavaScript. Nick would agree.

And no one gets excited about Java. I mean, it's fine. It does its job, but like, what is there to get excited about and love and fanboy over TypeScript? Like types. Static static types it's not exciting maybe you think it's better but i don't know let's just listen to next remix let me just say it is not better typescript it's not better yeah it's worse here we go my favorite episodes

of the changelog are the ones where adam and jared just let loose and just get so excited about typescript jared's face just lights up you can hear it in his voice he gets very excited about the typescript it really shows in the podcasts. Aside from that, I really enjoyed hanging with you guys at that conference all about TypeSafe JavaScript. And it really shows. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. TypeScript saves another day. TypeScript saves another day. Another day. Maybe that's why, Jared. Maybe.

I mean, I'm almost converted. You're right. Yeah, that was good preaching right there. Good preaching. All right, next up, Rusty Nail. Hello there, listeners. My favorite moments of the year are, number one,

big thanks for remastering 10,000 hours of deliberate programming. That was my overall favorite episode for two plus years that I've listened to the podcast, and I've been meaning to come back to that episode. However, I don't have to do that now that I've re-listened it again. In the main feat,

number two, in the Go time 3-3-2, the discussion of the founder mode led me to a conclusion that I've always had it on myself, but I didn't know how it was called. And during this summer, on one of the interviews, I was asked what made me an outlier among my peers and co-workers. And now I know what should have been the answer, which at the moment I did not. Now I am prepared for the next one. In the episode 6.11 of ChangeLog, I was really excited to hear the voices of the core python developer team i've programmed in python all my career and i have never interacted with these people in any way hearing the voices i was generally excited about

it in the practical ai 257 it was mentioned how the role of corporate culture and non-tech people impacts the ai adoption in big corporations and organizations and that was an eye-opening moment for me so I was really excited to hear that number five my absolute favorite episode of the year is when the secret service or police knocking on the door. I think it was episode 609 for not even hacking, but vulnerability reporting. And with a few of the jokes that went along with the story. Next, we share a fun fact in our morning stand-ups. And the day I learned about the boss factor

from the changelock conference number 70, I had to share the fun fact. And I shared with the team what the boss factor was. But it was actually called Morbid by our CEO. And finally, I think we're missing an insane hiring market episode this year. And this was the year that I shifted my job first time over the last five years. And if you are going to do it,

I do have a question to ask. It's more like a paradox. If everyone complains about not having enough talent and people to hire, when you apply for a job at some company, you never hear anything back if you don't have any connections there. How does this paradox happen?

Good question. We did not do an insane hiring market with Gergay or Rose this fall. We normally did it every fall. What's up with that? And I can't speak for you, Adam, but I just forgot about it this time. Oh, gosh. Did you forget about it this time. Oh gosh. Did you forget about it or? I would like to say that maybe the well has dried up on, maybe, I don't know, on the, should we dip back into that hiring market? It

seems like we should. It was enjoyed. I love Gergay. I love talking to him. Yeah. People like that. I think we should definitely get Gergay on the show. He does have his own podcast now, so that's a thing, but maybe, you know, that could be a January thing. It doesn't have to be in the fall. It can be whenever we want it to be. So we could queue that up for Rusty. Let's a thing. But maybe, you know, it could be a January thing. It doesn't have to be in the fall. It can be whenever we want it to be. So we could cue that up for Rusty. Let's do it. And ask that question. Yeah.

I like doing it in the fall. It's a good end cap to the year. Because it's almost like, how do we get here? And where are we going? Well, we dropped the ball in the fall, though. Yeah. So maybe we'll just wait until next fall. Maybe.

Sometimes two years is the right amount of years sometimes but i was uh i was pumping my fist on the best worst code base yes that was a good one i love that story yeah great story uh 10 000 hours remastered that was actually i like how that worked out actually we had a gap and we were thinking about what to do. And I was like, let's remaster an oldie, but a goodie. So I'm glad at least one person really enjoyed it. I think that it got re-listened to another 25-ish thousand times, maybe 21,000 times, at least based on the site stats. And the remastered version actually has some cool stuff.

Chapters! So the first time we did it was pre-chapters, and now it has chapters, so this listening experience might actually be slightly more enjoyable, because you can jump around. Cue the music. My favorite numbers are the number five.

Generally excited about it. The number 2. Next. Is 7. But I think 5 plus 2 is actually 7. And that was an eye-opening moment for me. Now you know the answer.

And finally we're missing my absolute favorite number is 3 dot 1 4 1 5 2 6 5 3 5 9 7 9 3 2 3 3 4 6 2 6 My absolute favorite number is 3.1419265. 9, 7, 9, 3, 2, 3, 3, 4, 6, 2, 6, 4, 3, 3, 3, 2, 7, 9, 5, 0, 2, 3, 3, 4, 1, 9, 7, 1, 6, 9, 3, 9, 9. Oh my gosh. I don't know if this was it or not. I was thinking maybe this number at the end might have been like 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42 Which is from the TV show Lost

That would have been cool That would have been a good tie-in Still good though, still good Yeah, that was fun He would have had to say the numbers to get that to do that Yeah, that'd be hard You'd have to have specific numbers that maybe Rusty didn't say Yeah

When I said Cue the Music, I was thinking the song Jump Around, though. I came to get down. I came to get down. So get off your feet and jump around. I came to get down. Get off your feet and jump around. That's right. There you go.

Cypress Hill, kids. No. That's Cypress Hill, isn't it? No. It's the L leprechauns not the leprechauns uh house of pain yeah i told you the house of pain you said cypress hill listen to this it's produced by dj mugs of cypress hill who also covered the song all right so take that what that's right.

Jump Around. I don't know about this history. School me quickly. Okay. Jump Around is a song by the American hip-hop group House of Pain, produced by DJ Muggs of Cypress Hill, who has also covered the song and was released in May 1992 by Tommy Boy and XL as the first single from their debut album, House of Pain. So I wasn't wrong.

I just had it wrong, sort of. There's a tie-in. There's a reason why I thought Cypress Hill, but yeah, it's House of Pain. That's cool. I didn't know that. Yeah. Glad you messed up, but didn't. Same.

I'm always glad when I mess up, and it's not actually a mess up. All right, who's this? Oh, it's only Matt Reier. Hello, everybody. Matt Reier here. Just want to say a big thank you to everybody that supported us with the GoTime podcast and everything that I do on ChangeLog

and France. It's a platform, you know, they just make great podcasts and I can't wait to see what the future of change log is gonna look like oh sorry i'm just oh what oh change oh yeah change log no no no now you've said it that is really yeah it's obvious now but oh i've only seen it written down you're right yeah okay that's really clever well happy new year everyone and I hope you let me come and be an idiot a bit on future podcasts

love you all bye wow oh Matt I don't have to say about that Matt's a character I'll say this stay tuned because

Matt Reier will be our very first friend of 2025 it's already booked so as it should be it's the way it should be get with your friends it was the the pilot for friends it was it was the inspiration the proving ground so to speak proving right yeah oh and matt's always up to something and he is i will tell you this also he is up to something for this next episode of change talking friends oh really he's up to something do you know what the something is i know a little bit about it i'm not gonna say any more than that what might it involve just give us like a like one one hint off color if you have to whatever not direct yes and oh that's so revealing you said it so quickly like as if you had it queued up.

No, I didn't. You put me on the spot. I thought this is a good hint. Is that too much? Okay. Okay. Here's Matt Reier, Remixed. Let's do it.

Hello, everybody. Matt Reier here. Just want to say a big thank you to everybody that supported ChangeLog and France. You know, they just make great podcasts. Tu sais, ils font juste d'excellents podcasts. J'ai hâte de voir à quoi ressemblera l'avenir du ChangeLog. Bonne année à tous et j'espère que vous me laisserez un peu idiot sur les futurs podcasts.

Love you all. Bye. Je vous aime tous. Au revoir. I told you, BMC has some new toys. I'm just not sure what this show has become.

I think it might be like a show-off center for Breakmaster Cylinder. And then obviously a show-off center for our listeners. Very much not about us at all. At the very, yeah. At least a playground. Yeah. I keep trying to talk and I keep being cut off by these voicemails.

Well, there's something poetic about that. Matt. Oh, I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it. I should say, we might have to bleep that, but I wouldn't know. I have no idea what she was saying. I assume it was what Matt was saying in French. It's possible.

I have no idea. So if you can hear that and translate it for us. I'll have my daughter listen to it. She speaks French. Okay. Yeah. We've reached our final caller. Any guesses, Adam, on who it might be,

the person that might leave a voicemail the very last moment? Give me a second. Need a hint? Sure. It's the same as the last caller last year. It's a big hint. Unless you didn't make it to the end of the show

before you fell asleep. I fell asleep. I fell asleep. Jamie Tanna. Oh, gosh, yes. Jamie Tanna. Oh gosh, yes. Jamie Tanna. Just in time Jamie. That's what we call him.

Really? I just made that up on the spot. That's a good one though. Yeah, that's nice. It's so, yeah, I was going to make a timing joke, but I can't find my words.

Yeah. All right. Well, let's hear from Jamie then. Hey Adam and Jared. It's Jamie Tanna here. Thanks for another awesome year of changelog and plus plus it is so much better so much better i think i'm making this a tradition of me submitting late so i'm sorry again and but hopefully i managed to make it in time i probably didn't but we'll find out this week. I think that's probably a good

segue into what my favorite episode of the year has been, which I'm probably a little bit biased because it was me. In February, I joined you on Friends 31 to talk about being public, how ADHD affects me, including being late to submitting things like this, dependency management data, and also kickstarted my podcast career where I followed up with a conversation on GoTime in episode 328 about OpenAPI. But enough about me. This year has been an epic year for ChangeLog,

in particular, like the first year of Friends in full, which I've been incredibly thoroughly enjoying, which you may be able to guess from me listening to a whopping 45 episodes this year, including one that I finished listening to this morning. Some of my favorite episodes this year, especially in Friends, have been the new Hashtag Prime episodes, Friends 47 and 59, which have been really fun listening on my own, but also with my partner. There's a fun, different thing to listen to.

As well as meeting some really awesome and interesting people at the different hallway tracks at conferences you've been at. I also really enjoyed listening to Adam and Gerard solo, either in Friends 70 or the Plus Plus special episode at Build 2024. And hearing a bit more from the two of you, because we always hear from your point of view

from behind the mic. Data-wise, I've been split on go-time interviews, listening to 38 podcasts apiece this year and then ship it just behind on 35 lessons. In total, according to my podcast app, in 2024

I've listened to 8 days worth of podcasts with you all. It's been great but it's bittersweet with the news of the change in our podcasting universe. I'm cautiously optimistic for the future and I hope that in the coming year, I'll be having some similar numbers across the whole podcast universe.

Just quickly to go back to interviews, there's been some really incredible interviews this last year, but to give just three of my top ones Brian Cantrell in interviews 592 Akon from Hack Club in interview 620 and Danny Thompson in interview

617. A bunch of really interesting and diverse thoughts and yeah I've loved the way that you have just some really incredible people from different walks of life different stages of career different viewpoints I'm gonna stop rambling now I want to say thanks again to all the many many folk who have contributed to another really great year of change for us it is better but it's so much better

it's been better for years getting on that i love how it's better has become a thing like an unstoppable freight train i love that it's it's so recycled throughout it's a a dumb thing i said one time just like messing around you know and, and it stuck. That's the, and my kids mimic it as well. My youngest, my five-year-old, they, you know, in their kid voice change a lot plus plus it's better. You know, they hold their nose cause he didn't make it sound nasally for some reason. I'm not sure to be, if I should be offended or not, but the Danny Thompson one, I like that. I'm glad that got out there. Yeah, that one almost didn't make it out. Yeah.

It was... Can you talk about the travels the data had to go through to get to us to become an MP3 on the airwaves? I'm holding in my hand, which you would see if we had video first production, a Nick Nisi hard drive

which holds something like 35 gigabytes of film, the proverbial film, not actual film, from our stuff at that conference. And this had to come by way, we were at that conference in Austin, Texas, our Danny Thompson interview is on here. And it took a long time to get it gathered together. I'm not sure the whole story, but Clark Sell diligently gathered. It was just too much to just send us. I mean, that's a lot of data. And so the idea was like sneaker net, I guess, for the win. And so Clark saw Nick at this summer's that conference in Wisconsin. So there's two that conferences, Austin, Texas and Wisconsin Dells.

And Nick happened to have his hard drive on him. So Clark gave him the 35 gigs or whatever it is and put it on the hard drive. I actually think it's more than that now that I'm saying it. It's something ridiculous. It's like 500 gigabytes. It was just too much to just put them

to Dropbox or something, I guess. And Nick sneaker netted it via an airplane back to his house. And then I had lunch with him because, you know, Nick and I both live in the Omaha, Nebraska area. I'm in Bennington, which is Northwest of Omaha. And he's in Bellevue, which is kind of Southeast Omaha. So we aren't super close together and probably a 40 minute drive if he was going to come to my house, but we meet in the middle and have lunch sometimes. And so he brought me this to lunch, and I went through it, and I extracted it, and I gave it to Jason, our editor.

And Jason did his best with it, and he handed it to you, and we said, can we ship this interview? And you know, the audio wasn't our standard quality, and so there were some questions. And it wasn't that long, honestly. It was kind of a shorter episode. And so we actually almost deep-sixed it didn't we adam uh we came close we uh we almost deep-sixed it because we thought about what was what was it

about it well it didn't sound amazing and it was a little bit shorter than we normally do right and we thought well wouldn't we just get danny back on the pod and just do it fresh like a real episode which was another route we could have went. But you know, this is a business. We do put shows out on the weekly and we needed a show that week. So it's like, that was definitely part of the decision-making process. We can't act like it wasn't. We have sponsors who count on us to put shows out. And so it was like, can this be a standalone episode? And I'm glad that at least for Jamie, it was one of the best of the year hopefully

other people liked it too Danny was over the moon because I saw Danny at all things open I told him I don't think we're going to get that episode out and thankfully it was about his life story more than it was about current events or anything because it was last January that we recorded it so yeah it was pretty much evergreen well this, this January. Last January. If you're listening to this in 2025, last January. January of 24. Yes. Got to give to get back. Yeah, got to give.

Got to give to get back. To get back. I'm glad we got it out there because I think that I don't know Danny's full story aside from what we had shared there. But I think he had been newer or newish to sharing his story, especially on stage. I think since then he's had more reps. And so we actually may be late to the party in terms of sharing that story. Sure. But obviously sharing it on the conference stage, so to set the stage a bit more elongated but shortened.

Is that even a thing? I don't know. We were on stage with Danny. Did we pass the mic back and forth? I don't think so. Yeah. Okay. I think we each had our own mics,

but they were handheld mics. They weren't like stationary mics. We had them handheld so we can pull them away from our face. There's no breath going on. And then we had some Q and a afterwards. And so the Q and a didn't fit. And so if you're at the conference, it was a lengthy conversation with more context. As a podcast, the Q&A. I'm glad Clark came through and got us the

data. And even if it was published, you know, recorded January 30th and published November 14th, that's cool. At least we still shipped it, you know. And it was awesome. I dug it. Alright, Jamie, thank you, as always, for

calling in just in time. Just in time. Here is your breakmaster cylinder remix this year has been an epic year awesome year awesome and interesting really fun it's been great a bunch of really interesting and diverse thoughts really incredible so much better so much better so much better. So much better. So much better. Been better for years. Getting on that one. But enough about me.

Mmm. Mmm. That one smacks. So much better for years. That beats a banger. Check the scoreboard. The numbers don't lie. I reversed it.

What'd you reverse? Well, it's actually the numbers don't lie. Check the scoreboard. The numbers don't lie. I reversed it. What'd you reverse? Well, it's actually the numbers don't lie. Check the scoreboard. Oh, I don't know the saying. Dude. Shaboy! Excuse me? Gesundheit?

It's Jay-Z. That's a Jay-Z line? Yeah, man. Here's my concern with Jay-Z is like, I like the man's music and everything. And Shaboy certainly comes from it. But it turns out he might be like a really awful person. Yeah, man. Here's my concern with Jay-Z is like, I like the man's music and everything, and Shaboy certainly comes from it, but it turns out he might be like a really awful person. Turns out?

Yeah, well, you know, the Pete Diddy tapes are dropping and Jay-Z maybe implicated some seriously wicked stuff, and not wicked in the Boston accent kind of a way. Wicked smart. Wicked bad. He's wicked smart. Wicked bad. Yeah. So anyways, distancing myself perhaps i'm not gonna drop the

shit boy but most people don't even know what it is well i thought because of the shit boy you would know i don't know that verse check the what is it it's uh numbers don't lie check the scoreboard okay i know i've pointed at a scoreboard before especially in high school basketball and said scoreboard well that's a thing i mean i think it's a thing and he made it a lyric. He didn't create it. He didn't coin it. Yeah, I was going to say he stole it from me when I was in high school. He used to do that. Yeah, come on. Theft. Now add that to the list. Yeah, yeah. Idea theft. You know,

copyright. Okay, so a good attempt. You know, we missed the layup on that one. It was my fault. But that's it. That's our 12 voicemails and remixes. Thank you, BMC. Thank you to all of our listeners. But now it's our 12 voicemails and remixes thank you bmc thank you to all of our listeners but now it's our turn to talk oh yes it's a whole new show now chapter marker drop it part two another hour of show coming up get ready we're going for a bathroom break we're shaking

our legs i'm just kidding what's up friends i'm here in the breaks with David Hsu, founder and CEO at Retool. If you didn't know, Retool is the fastest way to build internal software. So, David, we're here to talk about Retool. I love Retool. You know that. I've been a fan of yours for years. But I'm on the outside and you're clearly on the inside, right? You're on the inside, right?

I think so. Yeah, I'd say so. Okay, cool. So given that you're on the inside and I'm not on the inside, who is using Retool and why are they using Retool? Yeah. So the primary reason someone uses Retool is typically they are a backend engineer who's looking to build some sort of internal tool and it involves the front end. And backend engineers typically don't care too much for the front end. They might not know React, Redux all that well. And they say, hey, I just want a simple button, simple form on top of my database or API. Why is it so hard? And so

that's kind of the core concept behind Retool is front end web development has gotten so difficult in the past 5, 10, 20 years. It's so complicated today. Put together a simple form with a submit button, have that submit to an API. You have to worry, for example, about, oh, you know, when you press the submit button, you got to bounce it

or maybe you got to disable it when it's, you know, is fetching is true. And then when it comes back, you got to enable the button again. When there's an error, you got to display the error message. There's so much crap down

with building a simple form like that. And Retool takes that all away. And so really, I think the core reason why someone would use Retool is they just don't want to build any more internal tools. They want to save some time. Yeah, clearly the front end has gotten complex. No doubt about that.

I think even front-enders would agree with that sentiment. And then you have back-end folks that already have access to everything, API keys, production database, servers, whatever. But then to just stand up Retool, to me, seems like the next real easy button because you can just remove the entire front-end layer complexity.

You're not trying to take it away. You're just trying to augment it. You're trying to give developers a given interface, that's Retool, build out your own admin, your own view to a Google Sheet or to the production database, all inside Retool. Build out your own admin, your own view to a Google Sheet or to the production database. All inside Retool. Let Retool be the front end to the already existing back end. Is that about right?

Yeah, that is exactly right. The way we think about it is we want to abstract away things that a developer should not need to focus on. Such that developer can focus on what is truly specific or unique to their business. And so the vision of what we want to build is something like an AWS, actually, where I think AWS really fundamentally transformed the infrastructure layer. Back in the day, developers spent all their time thinking about how do I go rack servers? How do I go manage cooling, manage power supplies? How do I upgrade my database without it going down? How do I change out the hard drive while still being online? All

these problems. And they're not problems anymore, because nowadays when you want to upgrade your database, just go to RDS, press a few buttons. And so what AWS did to the infrastructure layer is what we want to do to the application layer specifically on the front end today. And for me, that's pretty exciting because as a developer myself, I'm not really honestly that interested, for example, in managing infrastructure in a nuts and bolts way. I would much rather be like, hey, you know, I want an S3 bucket. Boom, there's an S3 bucket. I want a database. Boom, there's a database.

And similarly, on the front end or in the application layer, there is so much crap people have to do today when it comes to building a simple CRUD application. It's like, you know, you probably have to install 10, 15, maybe even 20 different libraries. You probably don't know what most libraries do. It's really complicated to load a simple form. You know, you're probably downloading almost like a megabyte or two of JavaScript. It's so much crap to build a simple form. And so that's kind of the idea behind Retool is could it be a lot simpler?

Could we just make it so much faster? Could you go from nothing to a form on top of your database or API in two minutes? Well, we think so. Yeah, I think so too. So listeners, Retool is built for scale. It's built for enterprise. It's built for everyone. And Retool is built for developers.

That's you. You can self-host it. You can run in the cloud, make custom SSO, audit logs, SOC 2, Type 2, professional services. Starting with Retool is simple, fast, and of course, it's free if you want to try it right now. So go to retool.com slash changelog. That's R-E-T-O-O-L dot com slash changelog. Favorite episodes of ours. How many of yours are left standing? Let me just say one thing before we truly break over.

Okay. Because I recall the podcast with Jamie. Yes. I recall being there, obviously. I recall this podcast with Jamie. Yes. I recall being there, obviously. I recall the show was awesome. Good. I do not recall titling that show, Yeeting Stuff Into Public. Did you title that Sans Me? Was I on vacation or something?

It was like a Friday afternoon. I just slapped a title on it and went. Okay. Well, he said that. Did he? Okay. And it was all about him doing his whole, you know, his whole public salary and writing and everything.

And so. Yeeting is a term? What is a yeeting? Yeeting? Yeeting. Yeah. To yeet something is to throw it. Phew.

TIL. Yeah. It's what the kids are saying. At least they were saying it about 10 years ago. I think it's kind of old. Yeeting. Yeah. Yeeting.

Hmm. Yeet. See, I mean. You say that when you just toss somebody yeet i didn't toss anybody for one no it's not you jamie was yeeting stuff in the he's just been throwing stuff into public you know i got it i'm getting it but okay yeah i titled that one without you you know sometimes we just roll i have an idea i like it i'm just gonna publish that sucker saying you know it's so obvious why why check exactly especially when it's something that they say on the show it's like too easy i have a long list okay i mean not even i'm not

even sure that i can express this list it's lengthy well we are while we're bike shedding titles should we just get the titles out of the way favorite titles did you write some down oh yeah yeah okay let's just do that one quick because it's less emotional can we do it quick let's do it yeah you me You, me, or you? Let's just go back and forth. You, me, or you? Okay, me first. Okay.

Great title. It's Not Always DNS. Ah, that's, I won't say it. Yeah. Oh, that's in your favor list. Yeah. I like that one because we wanted to call it It's Always DNS, but we realized on the show that Paul Vixie actually didn't like that statement.

And so we inverted it, similar to the not insane tech hiring market. And we said, it's not always DNS. So that's why I like that one. Your turn. You'll rent chips and be happy. Oh, yeah. This was a recent Friends episode, wasn't it? Yeah. And what were we talking about again? Zach Smith, Equinix, Metal fame. Right. Previous to that was Packet. Right. Yeah. idea is like to recycle the hardware and subscribe to it and people were not down with his idea by the way we had lots of people writing in like this isn't a good idea i was i don't know data centers i don't know big data business who wrote this in where they write this in at in zulip did i miss

the chat there was some chat i don't remember oh dang probably zulip probably internets okay but interesting conversation brought out a lot of people's thoughts and great title because we were talking about the whole World Economic Forum and you'll own nothing and be happy. And this is you will rent chips. These are GPUs and be happy. Good one. My turn. Retirement is for suckers. That is a good one.

Oh, talk about a quote. I mean, he literally said that. Cameron Say came out right at the beginning. It was just like, retirement's for suckers. And that was the show title. Show title. You will like this one. I think it's the best one of the year.

If there was an award for the best title of the year, this is it. Okay. The wrong place to slap a person. I believe it's the best of the year. That one is in my list as well. I think it's staying still yet. That's the wrong place to slap a person. I mean, it's created some major waves,

a lot of drama. I mean, would it be different if it was done differently? Maybe. I don't think so. Of course, referring to the Matt Mullenweg

call out of WB Engine at WordCamp. That's the wrong place to slap a person. We recorded this Friends episode, I think with Nick Neesey as well,

right after that event. And so that's what this thing is referring to. And Adam said that on the show. I do like to have show titles that are something that was said

on the show. I think it's a nice, easy way of having a tie-in. Especially when you don't know what it means at first, and then you hear it

later on the show. I've always enjoyed that. It does make it sweeter. I agree. That was on my list of best titles. How about this one? The Ol' Hot and Juicy. That's in my list too best titles. How about this one? The old hot and juicy.

That's in my list too. Adam's the best. The old hot and juicy. Gosh, what was the context? Why did he say that? Do you recall? It was similar to a horse head in your bed. You know, it's the offer you can't refuse.

The old hot and juicy is like this thing that's like, he was referring to the article written by Matt Asay about Open Tofu potentially copyright infringing Terraform. Yes. And it's like this, the old hot and juicy is like. Can I quote him from the transcript? Yeah, go ahead. Adam Jacobs says, yeah.

And the reputation dragging was the reason to do it. Somebody replied to me on Twitter and called the cease and desist letter the old hot and juicy. Right. So the letter was the old hot and juicy. Okay, not the article. Not the article. But he said old hot and juicy like three or four more times on that show. I think so.

And it became the show title. You got another one? The B-S-O-D Crowd Strikes Back. That's my other one. This was, of course, our Crowd Strike episode with Robert Ross. Probably should have said it differently. The B-S-O-D, Crowd Strikes Back. That's my other one. This was, of course, our Crowd Strike episode with Robert Ross. Probably should have said it differently, B-S-O-D. The Blue Screen of Death. To drag it out doesn't like let it land.

The B-S-O-D, Crowd Strikes Back. Right. Well, of course, we are referring to the Empire Strikes Back, but it's the Blue Screen of Death that's Crowd Striking Back. Because it did, man. All of a sudden, here comes the B-S- the BSOD striking a PC near you around the CrowdStrike debacle. Incident. Yeah, debacle.

It's probably a debacle. Well, it's an incident for sure. Oh, for sure. A scalable incident at that. Bigger than an incident. Incident doesn't do it justice. Debacle was a great word. Having caught up with the ripples, though.

Like, what's changed as a result of this happening that'd be good yeah i don't know i mean that can be kind of boring maybe well if it's interesting then it's interesting but if it's boring that's true what's changed very little there's like a few more processes inside crowd strike now all right last one for me best title of the year This one saved us from a bunch of other bad titles. From a bunch of bad titles that we had come up with before it. And the title is major.semver.patch. That was a good title.

All caps, of course. We had a hard time naming that episode we did about Semver. But why not use Semver to name Semver and call it a patch because the whole thing was about how we can change Semver to make it better. Yeah. Can we have a major patch to Semver? Solid title. Yeah.

1999, A Film Odyssey. That's a changelog plus plus only. It's a bonus show for those who are the cool people, you know. It's better. Just saying. That was actually almost made my list of favorite episodes, but I didn't want to put it on because I feel like that's just rude. Well, I did it for you.

Oh. And I'm rude. And the last one was The Wu-Tang Way. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. Good show, good title. Fun title. All right, here we go.

Favorite episodes. How many years are left standing? Standing? Like have not been mentioned like they haven't been referenced by anybody else let's see here oh one two three four technically five so fine so of my nine i have five favorites and four honorable mentions of my nine i have almost all of them. I have seven of nine. Okay.

Maybe six, depending on how you count this one. You always want to go through the list real fast. You want to do all yours and then all mine, all mine and all yours. I think everyone's waiting for me to reveal my unprecedented. Yeah. Cause I mean,

it's been like an hour and a half. I'm not, but I think they might be. They've forgotten about it by now. I've forgotten about it, but I'm down for it. I'm just kidding with you. All right.

So here's what I'm going to say, and I think you're going to like this. Okay. One of my favorite episodes, these are in no particular order, okay? So they're not like one through five. This is not my number one favorite episode. But one of my five favorite episodes, unprecedented, never happened before, hasn't come out yet

because it's coming out today or tomorrow as we record, and it will be out in the feed on Friday. But I'm not sure if it's coming out today, or tomorrow, as we record, and it will be out in the feed on Friday. But I'm not sure if it's my favorite, because it hasn't been produced, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be one of my favorites, because it is Ghostie with Mitchell Hashimoto. Really? Really. Please tell me why it's your favorite, given that you haven't listened to it.

It's the most recency bias I could possibly have. We just talked to him the other day, man. Recency bias is real. Good show, though. I like that. Great show. Deep dive. He's so thoughtful.

You don't hear from him very much, so I hadn't heard from him besides his blog in a long time. I think Ghostie's legitimately really cool. You know, it's not every year that I change both my main text editor, which is now Zed, and my terminal, which as of last week, and I think it's going to continue, why wouldn't it, is Ghosty. Really? Yeah, I'm off terminal.app, man.

I pulled it out of my dock. Oof. I haven't launched it since. He convinced me out of terminal.app. And I'm on Ghosty. And I just feel like I'm excited because I think Ghostie is going to get way better over the next year.

And Mitchell got me excited. So I don't know. Call it recency bias. Call it haven't heard the episode yet bias. I just got a feeling that's going to be a top for not just me. And so what was your, remind me what your hint was to me

and what I did not get. Did you give me a hint? No, I didn't give you a hint. I thought you gave me a hint. I just told you I was going to do something unprecedented. No one's ever picked a show that hasn't shipped yet. Oh, okay. That's true.

And it is in this year. That's right. And that is unprecedented. It follows all the rules. Congratulations, Jared. Thank you. Thank you. Probably the best pick of the year.

What do you got going? Should I share my whole list? What should I do? Well, I might as well just keep going down mine. Go with it. Yeah, sure. Why not? I'm going to break a few rules, though. The other thing I picked, number two, is all the Kaizens.

Oh. Can I just pick the Kaizens as a totality? Yeah, it's too hard to do. I mean, they're a thread. I feel like they're chapters in a major podcast. They almost are. They're like nested chapters. So we did five this year, five Kaizens with Careheart.

If I had to pick just one, it would be the Not a Pipe Dream one the one where he took us on that journey and he revealed to us over time what was going on that was just spectacular but they were all kind of one long windy road and so I'm just going to pick all the Kaizens

I just feel like I'm loving what we're doing with Kaizen what's happening there is interesting I feel like that's probably one of the doing with Kaizen. What's happening there is interesting. I feel like that's probably one of the best things we did this year. So that's breaking the rules because I picked five episodes

as one. Yeah. It just counts as one. I'm going to break the rules one more time. Oh gosh. And I'm going to pick the episodes from that conference.

Oh. So this is two for the price of one. Nice. You have how many open tabs? Yes. That was with Nick Nisi, Amy Dutton, and Andres Pineda. Andres.

Yeah. And the second one was future of energy, content, food. And that was with a bunch of people as well. We had Samuel Goff, future of energy. We talked with YouTuber Jess Chan from the Coder Coder channel. And then you did one without me because I had to leave earlier than you. With Vanessa Villa and Noah Jenkins all about ag tech and the future of food. I thought both of those episodes turned out awesome.

And all those conversations were good. There wasn't a dud in the mix. And so I'm picking those two as a bundle as one of my top five of the year. Okay. I dig it. Nice. Number four. The man behind the sandwich with Adam Lissagor.

I just really enjoyed that conversation. Adam is so smart and experienced and deep. I feel like we went really deep places there. And I remember making clips and I'm like, I got like seven clips here. I just, I got to stop clipping this because there's so many good parts, fun talk about Apple vision pro and what they're doing there with sandwich theater. I love that one. I've been a fan of his for a long time and was excited to meet him

and he delivered. And my last one, top five favorite. This is Change Dog and Friends, Starbucks DVD Peddlers with Emily Freeman and Justin Garrison. That conversation went off the rails in every great way possible. I remember thinking I was excited to have a conversation with them, but coming into it, the topic that we were supposed to be talking about just wasn't hidden for me at the moment. It was like DevRel stuff, which we had already just done a DevRel episode with Swix

maybe a month prior. And maybe that's why, but it just never got to that. The DevRel part is like the last 20 minutes maybe. And the conversation just went wild about DVDs and nostalgia, the 90s, and so many good laughs. Selling things and meeting people at, no, selling DVDs and meeting them at Starbucks.

Yeah, buying DVDs from people at Starbucks. And then even listening back to it, I was laughing because me and Emily were just awestruck by Justin doing this. And he's like, why? Why wouldn't I? I'm like, because you might be murdered. I mean, she goes, that's wild. We were just just having so much fun i like to meet people at police stations by choice or because they make you go there well like i once sold a bike bicycle do you ride in

the back of the car no no okay i uh well no i literally will say hey if you want to buy this thing for me meet me at the police that's a great place to meet somebody. Yeah, 100% not getting murdered there. Yeah, exactly. It's a maybe. Actually, it might be, it's so obviously safe that it's not safe. Right. So, could backfire. So, just a real quick recap.

My top five, Ghostie, Kaizen's, That Conference, The Man Behind the Sandwich, and Starbucks DVD Peddlers. Your turn. Now, were these episodes you mentioned ones that were delimited from the list of ones already mentioned? So nobody mentioned, I think, any of those. I think that I think our conference hallway tracks were kind of mentioned by a few people. Yes. But I do have some honorable mentions, which I'll let you go first and then I'll see because some of those have been picked already.

But yeah, these are all pretty much standalones. Should I share my entire list or should I share the list that hasn't been shared already? Share your list that hasn't been shared. Number one, Change Log Interviews 615. Rails is having a moment again. Good one. Good one. Yes.

Into the Bobaverse, episode 603, because why not? I'm concurring with you on this one, The Man Behind the Sandwich, 601. Nice. In the Beginning of Generative AI, episode 576. Joe Reese. You know, that was so long, I kind of forget it was this year. It does feel like a long time ago.

Well, we did 100 episodes, so they add up, and you think, that feels like a lot of episodes ago. But it was like was that march april february i don't know big fan of joe reese data engineering guy and happy we actually went on his pod after that and uh glad to have him back on he's a great conversationalist has lots of cool stories that was fun too going on his podcast i feel like we went there and had no topics. Yes. Right? Pretty much. Where can we go, basically, was the conversation. That was cool.

Right. I appreciate that about Joe, that he did that. Because, I mean, one, you can say he didn't plan. Or two, you could say he didn't plan on purpose. There you go. I know which one he might say. This one here was also early last year it's actually one episode before that episode 575 shift left seriously oh i feel like that was a really good show on the shift

left idea i mean shift left has been said a lot but i think the thing i took away mainly from that was it's always been said like who shifts left developers obviously it's going to shift left into the development cycle right but for me, I think I even said it, and it was me saying it like my aha moment was that it doesn't have to be developers shifting left, that it's in development. So it could be those around the dev

cycles. It doesn't have to just be the developer writing the code. It could be the team playing the software and the product team. It could be that shift left isn't just simply a developer task to pick up. It's not the who, it's the when. Yeah. It's not the who, it's the when. Thank you. Yeah. That's what I said. I know you did. I remember you saying it. That's my list. That's my list of ones that haven't been mentioned. Oh, those are your not mentions because all the rest of them have been hit on the head. Like Right to Repair, Sun to Oxide, Jacob System Initiative Retired Not Tired

ZSA Yes ZSA was Is it on there? I mean I had a long list It didn't make my list Because it's such a long list The Moneyball Approach

Best Worst Codebase Open Source Threaded Team Chat Best Worst Codebase Is in my honorable mentions Open Source Threaded Team Chat Is in my honorable mentions Yeah The Wu-Tang Way

With Ron Evans Is in my honorable mentions As well as This one hasn Way with Ron Evans is in my honorable mentions, as well as, this one hasn't been said yet, the Winamp Era with Jordan Eldridge. Yeah, that was a fun one even to come up with, because when I saw what he was spelunking into when it came to those Winamp themes, I'm like,

wow, that is some cool stuff there. And I think I shared that with you, and you're like, yeah, that's dope, let's do it. And so we did it. Paraphrase, of course, I don't think you ever said the word dope. I say the word dope. I call people're like, yeah, that's dope. Let's do it. And so we did it. Paraphrase, of course. I don't think you ever said the word dope. I say the word dope. Dope. I call people dopes.

Well, that's not nice. Yeah. Just my kids. Yeah. Well, you know, it's been a fun year. It's been, is this the first year where we've, was Friends around all last year? Like end to end all last year? I don't think so.

I think we started Friends last year. Yeah. And this will be the first year we've done Friends through and through. This will be episode 74 of Friends. So there you go. You have a 52 plus a 20 something. Yeah.

So yeah, first full year of Friends. What I was trying to make was I think this is the first year where we had two shows a week all year long, January to December. Right. And that's why it feels like a lot. That's like 100 episodes. Yeah. It's a lot of shows.

101, technically. And by the end of the year, we'll have 103, because we have Ghostie and this one. How do we bonus some shows? That's crazy. Well, we did some bonuses, yeah. What do you think was the through line to the year in terms of, there wasn't like a consistent, this is the change of the trend line i feel like like the year of this or this is something yeah like ai didn't get touched on a lot

this year even though i think it did i mean we talked about ai loosely i believe in the man behind the sandwich you know obviously in the beginning of generative AI with Joe Reese, that was right in the title there itself. I feel like AI didn't play a major conversational role in all these. We didn't talk about with DHH at all. Nope. Or the Moneyball approach. Nope. With John Inamaker.

Or the Best Worst Codebase. Nope. So I think we kind of kept it somewhat AI free. I think so. Mostly AI free. Like mostly local. Mostly AI free. Dude Like mostly local, mostly AI-free. Dude, mostly local is the way to go. Yeah, I don't know if there was any major theme for the year.

As some of our listeners pointed out, we obviously camped out in certain areas. There's the home lab area. There's the programming languages area. There's the culture area. There's the open source area. And I don't know if I had to like pick one thing it's like how about like uh realistic and healthy relationships with technology and the industry

something like that yeah i think a lot of the patina of tech is showing and we're having i think more of a appropriate view of both technology itself and the companies that we work for than in the past. I think it's been realized and shown this year. Amongst other trends, of course, the open source deal, going non-open source and then back again for Elastic, but then a lot of companies choosing to go non-open source and go fair source, business source, that whole deal.

I don't know. I'm just rambling. You asked a hard question. I don't have answers. Slight ramble. Somebody mentioned, I forget whom, with their voicemail mentioned episode 70, bus factors and conspiracy theories.

I think that I enjoy solo shows with you just as much as a guest, and I'm glad people like those. I think we do have some good stuff, let's just say, in those kind of shows. We good at talking sometimes. We good at talking. I will say now that I'm looking at this list, there is an honorable mention I want to bring up. Okay.

And I really, really really really enjoyed the listen back so i mean i don't always listen to our shows because obviously i'm like there right but i do listen to parts that's why i appreciate our chapters i'm like i was there i'm gonna chapter i'm gonna jump around i'm not gonna you're gonna cypress hill that thing you know go all in and listen to it end to end yeah shop talking friends yeah yeah i mean i thoroughly truly really enjoyed having chris and dave on i feel like we literally were sitting down with friends exactly and we were obviously but i i think that's that to me was just like a such a fun even the way it opened up with like me telling dave that he wasn't on brand with his, you know, his all caps or camel cases.

He let me fix that. And then it turned into like, was that a web socket behind the scenes? That just opened up the conversation just naturally. There was no real true beginning to the show. We just opened up there. And I think just the conversation was, there was no true plan because that's what you're doing anyways, right? You're just going to sit down and talk to people. Right. true plan because that's what you're doing anyways right you're just gonna sit down and talk to people right i like when that works out to our betterment when when we actually come without

a true plan there's a version of an idea there's a concept of a plan yeah there's a concept no i agree that's why i think that that conversation with emily and justin just tickled me so much because afterwards i was like that was just four friends hanging out and maybe the through line there is like four is better than three oh yeah maybe because it's both those produce good like friend like almost party atmosphere conversations but yes that could just be a coincidence as well I could probably think of some times where we've had three and it's felt like that as well like with Matt or Nick but that's like the whole like that is friends in a nutshell. That's so frenzy is like, let's just get people together who

are friends or want to be friends or friendly, in the case of Jamie Tanna, started off with Change Dog and Friendlies and becomes a friend. And let's just talk and enjoy each other and laugh and come up with ideas. My question for you is,

maybe we should end after this because we're getting long in the tooth, is ChangeLog++ is well known for being better. But here's a question. Is ChangeLog and Friends better than ChangeLog Interview, than our thing, than our show, than the thing that we created all these years?

Maybe Friends is actually the better show. I'm going to leave that as an open question and not as an answered question. Something to think about. Well, I don't know if this is indicative or not, but I would probably say based on my list, no. Yeah. All of my favorites were on interviews. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy Friends.

It's just to say that, you know, I think that my list sort of gravitated there. But my favorite titles were on friends. Of my top five, Ghostie was an interview. The Kaizens are friends. That comp, those one was, I think we did one of each. Maybe they're both friends. Man Behind the Sandwich was an interview. And then Starbucks, Stevie Peddler's was friends.

Wu-Tang Wei was friends. Winamp Arrow was friends. Open Source Thread, Team Chat, that was an interview. Best Worst Codebase, that was an interview. But it probably could have been was friends. Winampero was friends. OpenSource, Thread, TeamChat, that was an interview. Best Worst Codebase, that was an interview. But it probably could have been a friends. We broke the rules a couple times, too. Like, I think you might be on something with this whole three people, because when it's three, it feels like an interview.

Like, 10 years of Free Code Camp was on friends. Yeah, but he's an old friend. He's been on the show tons of times. We were interviewing him. I know that. That's where it's a bendy. You know, it's a bendy. We're trying not to interview him.

The problem with Quincy, there's no problems with him, but the challenge. The problem. Here's why Quincy sucks. No. The challenge with Quincy is he answers questions like they're interviews. Like he's going to give you an interview. And so it's hard to just like riff with him. It's not that hard.

But it feels like you're interviewing him because he's going to give you a two or three minute response. Yes. And he's not going to give Adam or Jared much much time to chat no he's a talker man i have one more this is the this is the one that broke the rule i think the most potentially on friends developer unhappiness with abby nota we're talking about i think that one is a show that like set up for our friends yeah but ended up feeling more like an interview yeah i'm down i'm just saying like it is what it is i think i like them all honestly i mean i do agree that there's there's some uh there's some good stuff on both sides of the fence i didn't need you didn't need

to answer i was just leaving it there open oh oh man but i appreciate you taking a crack at it how do we end this year what do we say what do we do before we hit stop well we did drop some major news and the only time we talked about it was with Gerhard loosely right should we talk about that at all or is there more to say about that well there will be a link in the show notes a new era coming 2025 that's's right. Still percolating. You know, it's a, this is a dry brine. A drive-by? It's a dry brine.

Oh, I thought you called this a drive-by. It's like, that's not good. Dry brine. Dry brines are what? They're a work in progress? Well, they take some time. It's a whip. Let's call this a whip.

Sure. We have some change. It's, it's clear. It's clearly unclear. But I would say this. This is what I said at the end of this one show. And I said, just trust us. Trust us to have the best interests of all the reasons you've shared your voicemails, all the reasons you've hung out in Zulop, all the reasons you've listened for a few years, for many, many years, et cetera. Have some patience with the process

of what we're trying to do. We're making some change. It's not going to be exactly precise, but it's mostly precise, intentionally precise if we can. And we're trying our best to move the direction that we want to go, that it needs to go. And that's really it.

Patience. Patience, Grasshopper. Patience. Thank you all for calling in. Thank you all for listening to us and being part of our community. If you're not in Zulip yet, let's fix that bug. Fix it. Head to changelog.com slash community.

Sign up for free. Throw in your email address. Get yourself a Zulip invite. Hop into Zulip. And hang out with us. But other than that, we're going to take the next couple weeks off. We're going to be with our families. We're going to be chillaxing.

And we are going to be preparing for 2025. What will it hold? We don't know exactly, but trust us, young grasshopper. Anything else? The remixes thank you bmc for the the extra attention so good so gold so gold yeah that should be the better so good the new so good is so gold so gold so gold like that zelda cartridge preach so gold so gold yeah thank you bmC for those beats and for just the remixes and making this show a little more special a little more special thank you

there you go bye friends bye friends we'll see you in the new year all right that is it 2024 is in the bag. Can you believe it? If you have ideas, requests, or anything at all you'd like to say, hop in our Zulip and sound off on the discussion thread for this episode. We absolutely love hearing from you. Thanks one last time for listening to our shows this year. We literally wouldn't be able to keep putting out new stuff if y'all weren't listening. So thanks. And a huge thanks to everyone on our team and in the changelog community for everything you do. You know who you are. But still, I'll name a few names. BMC, of course. Our editors, Brian and Jason. Alexandru on transcripts. Gearheart, of course. Our friends and panelists

on JS Party. GoTime, Practical AI, ShipIt, all of our pods. Y'all are awesome. To our wives, Rachel and Heather, thank you so much. And to our sponsors, Fly.io, Sentry, Wix, Shopify, WorkOS, Retool, Neon, Eight Sleep, and many more awesome companies

who support us. Thank you. Truly. Thank you. All right. That's all for now. But let's get together and talk a lot more next year. Finally the end of changelogging friends With Adam and Jared

It's some other rando We love that you loved it And stayed until the end But now it's over It's time to go We know your problem should be coding, and your deadline is pretty foreboding. Your ticket backlog is an actual problem, so why don't you go inside? No more listening to change-lock and fence From Adam and Sharon To Silicon Valley

No one gave a gag or con to an end But honestly that will probably be our finale We best be slinging ones and zeros And that makes you one of our heroes. Your list of to-dos is waiting for you, so why don't you go inside? No more listening to Change Lock and Friends, the bad and the jamming people you know. Change Lock and Friends, time to get back into the flow. Change all your friends.

Change all your friends. It's your favorite ever show. Favorite ever show.