The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - The 4 DIMM problem (Friends)

Episode Date: November 28, 2025

Our old friend Lars Wikman returns to the show to discuss Linux distro hopping, Elixir, Nerves, embedded systems, home automation with Home Assistant, karate, and more.

Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, a weekly talk show about Danny LaRuso's crane kick. Thanks, as always to our partners at Fly.io, the public cloud built for developers who ship. We love Fly, you might too. Learn more at fly.com. Okay, let's talk. Well, friends, agentic Postgres is here. And it's from our friends over at Tiger Data. This is the very first database built for agents and is built to let you build faster.

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that I'm sharing people you know. ChangeLogging Friends It's your favorite ever show. We have Losh Vickman with us. We're frenzing with Losh. You missed the pound-of-fine champs game. Oh, yeah, that was a bummer. So, so did Carol.

So, you know, was it really a champs game? If Carol Lee, Ph.D. isn't there? I mean, she's been wiping the floor with most people. It was a good game, though. It came all the way down to the wire. We had to do a last second tiebreaker, which we weren't ready for. And Matthew outlasted Taylor and the tiebreaker. you're here now

so here's a word that you must fight no just kidding but welcome welcome anyways you're fresh off of what is this ninjitsu class or something

you said you have karate karate karate it's different right jihitsu and karate is way different they are

similar yeah a fair bit but different right what's the difference yeah it's all from the vicinity of Japan I would say

right no no wrong wrong. Jiu-jitsu has roots, I believe, in Japan. I think it originated there, but it's resurgence, to my knowledge. And I could be wrong, is from Grace, the guy who went to Argentina or South America somewhere and had this whole new resurgence for Jiu-Zitsu.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Yeah, the Gracie family. No, I don't claim to be an expert. So when I say that, I'm not arguing. Well, let's let Lash tell us there. So J-Jitsu, to my knowledge, comes entirely from. Japan. And most fighting in Japan comes from China. So it's like, it's history all the way back.

Right. But that's usually called like traditional jiu-jitsu at this point because PJJ, Brazilian jiu-setsu, has been so popular. And yeah, that's what's dominating the like MMA and all that. Precisely. Much better version than I gave. My son was in jiu-jitsu for a little bit. He loved it. I loved it for him. I love it especially for young folks. because I think in particular it trended for us because kids don't have a lot of there's a lot of bullying confidence and just knowing how to stand up for a friend even was a lot of it it wasn't about fighting it was about how to deal with an attack on you and really how to disarm somebody really how to like squash a scenario versus escalate it

into something that shouldn't be yeah I think for kids like in particular my kid and the kids that were around there, it was super cool with just giving them some confidence at like 6, 7, 8 years old. I said 6.7. Oh, my goodness. 6.7. But does that, do you get that, Lash? Do you understand that 6-7 reference? Oh, yeah, yeah.

I've got traces of it. He has little kids, right? Lash, you've got like toddlers, right? Yeah, but 6-7 is a specific internet thing, and I don't recall what it is. It's an internet thing, but it also went beyond the internet to where, like, almost everybody. now, at least in the States. Here in America, man, you can't say the digits six and then the digit seven afterwards without getting some kids in, six, seven.

And I'm not going to do it because I'm not a child, but there you go. Have you ever snickered at a 69 reference or a 420? Yeah. I mean, I'm 46, dude. It's like numbers. Those are our generation, six, seven, basically. Yeah, I mean, I can't look at the number 69 without thinking like a child, like an adolescent. Nice.

There's one proper response. There's just one proper response. And now they've added six, seven to the list. Eventually, all numbers will have been covered by memes. And we won't even be able to say any number without some sort of reference. That's right. Well, 42. We have our own nerdy reference there, right?

42. Yeah, 42. That's what we need is a big lookup table in the sky. Well, we have one. It's called like, know your meme or whatever. That website is. There's your lookup table. Yeah.

Tell me why karate for you, Losh, because you're not a child. Adam consigned it as children. but he was not being... Yeah, I've done martial arts a little bit in the past. I've done Muay Thai, which is more sports-oriented, but I mostly did for exercise.

But I really enjoyed it. Went to Thailand, trained for a month there, tons of fun, then kind of fell out of it for a long time. My wife, after giving birth to two kids, wanted to sort of find a way to consistently work out

and get back into shape. and she needs she flourishes in a group training scenario so she picked up she looked around for karate went to a club has really enjoyed it

she's done for like three years now and something I come to realize about karate specifically and like some martial arts are like this some are not where they build a bit of community around the club

some sports are like this some are not where for some things you just show up, do the thing, and then you leave, and sure, you connect with a few people there, but there's part of karate, which is cultural, and the intent is to also change how you are as a person a little bit. It's like, we take care of each other. There's a lot of respect involved. It's like, we take care of the place we are at. There's a culture that is, like, you're just trying to build a very small, specific community of, with just some shared values,

which is a tricky thing to find sometimes these things. And I saw that that was part of it. And I'd heard people talk about karate this way before. And I, like, karate has never been top of the list of what I wanted to learn. But I figured I'd give it a shot because I think it would benefit me and my wife, but also because I saw the potential for, so I have a kid, three and five, two kids, three and five. Those numbers are probably safe still. For now. For now. Yeah. They mean something to me, actually, three five. I'll leave that out of here for now, but I'll say you later. They do mean something for me. They're really emotionally triggering for me in a positive way. I'm very sorry or. No, very good. I love three five. Yeah. Okay. Yeah,

you're welcome but I see like in a few years one of them can start or maybe they can start early it depends but essentially get them into something which is a circumstance that has a little bit of discipline to it it's a very soft discipline but it's like you line up you bow there's ritual to it that's something that a lot of kids like I would have benefited from that as a young one because it's just not how I'm how I typically behave but I would respect it in that circumstance and it would have been beneficial to me to get into exercise that early to get into learning how to control my own body how to behave figuring that stuff out in a fairly safe environment early on and it can be something that we potentially can do as a family

but we'll see how that pans out like nothing no plan survives contact with children. Right. I think that's Mike Tyson said that, right? Sun Tzu, actually. Okay. The art of children. Way off.

Tyson said something similar. Yeah, that's a fact. I certainly never know what's going to happen, what they're going to like, what they're going to not like. I think it's the punch in the face. Everyone says something until they get punched in the face. Tyson, like everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. Or something to that effect.

We're a good team then. We all had half of it. Yeah, for me, 3-5 was just to close a loop. When I was in the military, I was part of a team, I suppose, that was a, we had armor and we had fuel. And fuel was 3 and armor was 5 classification in terms of like how you classify those resources. And so the unit I was in was a 3-5 unit. And so for me, like it was very core to my military experience. And really my entire career, there was as part of a 3-5 unit.

it and what we did. And so that's why it was cool for me. I like three five. I'm down for three five, man. Unfortunately, my children will grow out of it and eventually a B-67, I suppose. Yeah, six-seven's coming. Well, at least for a certain part of the year, it's not B-68, right? From the inside the karate community, perhaps, I'm not sure how you, if you consider yourself inside at this point, or just visiting or we're... Barely, but... Barely. I'm getting there. How do people react to Karate Kid? Like, is it beloved? Is it hated because it's not real karate or is it real karate?

And they like, because, like, my whole experience as a child with karate was through Danny LaRousseau. And that whole experience, like, I would never even had a touch point with karate had it not been for that movie. And so in a certain extent, I think it probably brought it to a lot of people who didn't know about it otherwise, but maybe sometimes if you're trying to build a small community of people that care about it, thing. Here comes a bunch of people who wouldn't necessarily care about it and now they're

trying to do it. Do you have any insight into that or would you just be guessing? I mean, I think karate has probably benefited a bunch from Cobra Kai. I don't know if you've seen the TV series, but that is a phenomenal sort of revisit of Karate Kid. Right. Yeah. Where they even pull in all the original actors for reprising the role. They did a great job with that. They closed a loop on so many, you know, like, desires I had for that storyline. They revisited it. They gave backstory where, you know, we don't normally have backstory to the villain, you know. Right.

So there was even a lot of, like, theories that were proven correct or proven false by the traversing of the history and, like, even fleshing it out and whatnot. So I think that's kind of cool. Yeah. Johnny got his, yeah, comeuppance. Right. Yeah. No, I think Karate Kid is generally decently appreciating.

I think opinions vary a lot and I think a lot of people really don't like the Will Smith kid Will Smith's kids Oh the new one version But the original one It at least had done some research

Because like Mr. Miyagi I mean one of the forefathers of karate If not the forefather It's the one we have a picture of in the dojo Like shoyun miagi is his name or was his name and and that's not an accidental reference yeah right and i mean in karate kid too they they go to okinawa like the crane kick and that kind of stuff like their references why are you staying on one foot and then jumping to the other foot

you know caused so much power to come out of your body that was always what i wanted to know You can always take that as a metaphor for like balance is the key to successfully doing karate or whatever. But now, I think people have a soft spot for that movie. I did Muay Thai. Kickboxer is probably the most seen like 80s iteration of that. That one is terrible. Like Jean-Claude Van Damme. John Claude Van Damme.

Yeah. Yeah. His brother gets killed in the beginning. then he goes to train with a I believe it's an old Chinese man in the jungles of Thailand who teaches him I mean Jean-Claude does

karate actually and he was a kickboxer so fair enough that's like what that is usually but he's supposedly learning wai by doing kung fu with a Chinese man in Thailand it's very strange and then he fights a very

very scary, apparently Thai fighter, but I believe that actor is Mongolian and huge, which is not typical of Thai people. It's a wild, wild sort of mismatch. Maitai people tend to like, is it Ongbach, it's called? I don't know that one. Yeah, because that references older Muay Thai history and the Muay Baran, which is a show weird version. Now's Kickboxer the one where John Claude does the splits and his feet are like up on something. I mean, he does a lot of splits in that one and he also dances. Oh. Can a guy dance?

You should look at the clip and determine for yourself. He certainly can do a type of dance. I don't know if I appreciate it, but it's, I kind of appreciate it now. I don't know if I did then. He was one of my least favorite action heroes of that time period. I just never, I just didn't feel like the guy had very much charisma compared to the others, but that was just my. I would say I prefer him to Steven Segal. Okay, but does he count even?

Okay, for counting Steven Seagal, then I can't put Jean-Claude down to the bottom. You're right. And the thing is, I come from the same town as Dolphlundgren. Oh, really? Yes. Well. And he's terrible. Yeah, tell us, but he's terrible.

Well, say more about him living in your town. Like, is he still around? I don't believe so. I mean, he probably has some touch points there or family there. Is he the most famous person from your town? I don't know. No, probably hockey players from that region. Okay.

Yeah, we have some decent hockey players we've exported. So like NHL players. Like Yarmierager? No, he's Czech, I believe. He's Czech. Gosh. But the Sundin brothers. Mario Lemieux?

He's Canadian. Peter Forsberg It's Mario not Mario Now let's do Wayne Gretzky And then we'll have named All the hockey players That we can think of Peter Forsberg is one

Oh Forrestberg Red Wings right Yeah He's been he's been around a few different places I used Here's another thing And let's complain about The kids for a moment And not the kids but just this current age

Why do the athletes switch teams So much anymore It used to be you could just Have an athlete He was stuck to a team Whether he liked it or not and he had to just be a Chicago Bull or he had to be a Detroit Lion

and you could just rely on that guy being there like Barry Sanders was going to be on the hapless Detroit Lions his entire career whether he liked it or not and we could just rest in that you know and now it's like they just change constantly

it's hard to even keep up all right old man yells at sports yeah I don't follow any sports these days but I did follow hockey a little bit in my youth it was more or less mandatory and fairly interesting at times. Okay, friends, Augment Code.

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I wouldn't touch Amarchi because like I'm a radical idealist and I don't appreciate the DH's whole deal. But we don't have to get into that because no one's happy by getting into that. Right. But Arch I used for a hot minute many, many years ago. So this would be prior to introducing System D, probably. Because I think I was dual booting Windows and I was like, I want a Linux running.

So I installed Arch because people had spoken really well and highly of it. So installed Arch, had a good time setting stuff up. Things worked. The package manager seemed cool and I think it felt faster than the Ubuntu's I'd been doing. I was like, yeah, this is promising. Seems straightforward. Didn't use it for a bit because I ended up staying in Windows, I guess. for a while. And then I switched back to it and were like, yeah, I still have this. Oh, I should probably run some updates. But I was not aware that the rule and the law of the arch land is that you have to read all the news about the updates before you apply the updates. Didn't come up during the install process, let's just say. Yeah. So I essentially did whatever Pac-Man upgrade or whatever

did a full-on system upgrade and nothing worked. Then I found some guides and it's like, okay, I can get now from the prompt to, and if I manually launch it, I can get back into a UI and things. But I could never get GDM so the Gnome display manager to work ever again. And then I left Arch.

And then that was your experience. Yeah, but I did read a lot of forum threads where people said I should have read the news. So that was helpful. right yeah i was not aware that that was how that system operated it was like a read first type upgrade cycle but the wiki is so good you know it might well the wiki is really good i solve a lot of problems in other linux distros by reading the arch wiki where there's overlap yeah yeah i mean there's tons uh even when i work with on embedded systems there's stuff in in the arch wiki that

just explains like oh this tool works like this and these are good commands to use for this and that. It's very comprehensive. So it's very good reference documentation, even if it's not accurate to exactly your system. I tried Arch one time on a server, and I've always been running Debbie in servers. And all of these people were saying nice things about Arch,

and I was like, well, I'll just set up this new server with Arch. And this was probably back in the same time period because I don't remember System D being there. And, of course, I knew System D pretty well, and I didn't know what Arch was doing very well. And I was, I started setting it up and I'm like, what benefits am I gaining from this besides having tried Arch Linux versus like I, I think on the desktop perhaps, and I'm sure the further you go in, the more differences you find, but they were so similar enough where it's like I can't think of a single advantage I have, maybe maybe fresher software because Debian does, you know, stay a little bit stale on its official packages. But you could grab Ubuntu to get a non-stale Debian. Right. And normally all I need is, you know, what's there and it's fine. Maybe like back then the MySQL wasn't up to date with what, you know, Rails was using because this is like Ruby on Rails servers, you know? I remember I couldn't get a system service to set up and like when I rebooted the machine, it just wouldn't come back online. And I'm just like, I'm just going to wipe this and start with Debbie. And that was my only arch experience. It was like, it lasted probably four to six hours. And I just was like, nope, this is a waste of my time. But I

thing on the server side, especially back then, is probably like 2010-ish, time frame, 2012. There just wasn't much of a difference. I'm sure on the desktop, there's probably more dramatic differences. Yeah, I'd say so. Adam, you've been playing around. Yeah, that's why my monitor behind me is not on right now, because that's an arch Linux system. I also did not realize that you had to dedicate at least a half hour or what might be, could be longer than that, because if you're a shiny objects person, then for me, I am that

person so it might be like a typical 15 minute requirement 20 like a rabbit hole well it might derail my brain right it might give me ideas that take me down the arch lane versus like well similar to what you said jerry like i didn't like while i want to use arch and i think you should i think if you're in the world of linux you should try out the distros and see what works for you i think that's part of the linux journey is is building systems learning which distros support the system you want to build and find this isn't the best supports what you're trying to actually accomplish. And I did not know the requirement of Arch of the hour-ish of weekly maintenance required the requirement to read the news prior to even applying the updates. And then the

bug that can bite you if you don't, which is what bit me. I also have too much memory in the system. I'm using four dims versus two. And how dare you? Yeah, I mean, like, why? I should, I should, but the CPU doesn't have, the AM5 for AMD, that architecture, I guess, has an issue with reading four dims versus two dims of RAM, which I don't understand how you're AMD and you're beating Intel and you can't solve the four dim problem. Like, that doesn't compute with me. I don't get that at all. It's like, ostensibly, they ship this main board architecture. Yeah. Yeah, so one would...

This is the first time I've heard the four-dim problem. I mean, is this a thing? It doesn't make any sense. So, especially at like, okay, so this is a DDR5, 6,000 megatransfer per second problem. So this is a really fast RAM scenario and the power requirement,

from I understand, the voltage requirement and the architecture of the CPU to control that is the challenge. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, it's not a four-dim issue generally. It's because of it's the boundary at which the RAM is pushing it. It's just so fast. I mean, it really is so fast. So if you did slower RAM, you'd be fine at four sticks.

I could dial it back and be, well, what's the point? What's the point? No, right? It's like, get into Ferrari and drive at Honda speeds. No, thank you. Okay, that doesn't mean any sense to me. So why would I spend the money on that? I mean, never underestimate Honda speeds is what I've learned from the internet.

Sorry about that bad reference. It's like, pick any other car brands. Honda Civic speeds. Let me be specific on the front then. Honda Civic speeds. Although some civics can burn too. Yeah, I mean, that's probably the Modder's favorite car next to a Mioda. The stock Honda Civic Speed.

Okay, there we go. Three layers of specificity. Just pick a different car, man, like a Prius or something, you know, something that we know. So, modern's not on because that's an art system. I didn't apply updates. I got bit. Now it won't even stay on. The fans boot up and it just goes to crazy and it crashes.

And I know it's a memory issue. It's not an arch issue, but it's arch plus memory plus time. I don't have to fix it and make you all have silicon value there. I will fix it, though, next week. I mean, it will be back. We can just have, you do thumbnails for these, I hope. So you can just have you pointing at the monitor and going, I have run an arch, actually. Right.

Yeah. Arch, by the way. Yeah, there it is. You know, clip that. I feel like arch is kind of played out. if you want to be like a braggy Linux nerd isn't Nick's the thing?

Gosh, isn't that even worse though? Better but worse? More pretentious, but also it does something different. Yeah, it does something different. So I don't want something different. I just want Linux. I want good, solid, stable Linux

with, I would say, as close to tip packages that are stable. Why don't you like Ubuntu? I do like Ubuntu. Well, then there you go. My actual favorite desktop right now, Now, don't punch me, is Fedora 43. I'm loving it, man.

Fedora 43 is like as close as you can get to Mac OS. It is so nice. I love it. Is that with Nome, I assume? Yes. You know, I don't know. It's got the cool stuff, man. It's whatever comes with Fedora 43.

Last I tried the Nome window manager. I did not enjoy it, but it's been a minute. I run an absolutely bastardized. It's like, I installed Pop OS originally. So that came with. a Gnome variant at the time. And then I was like, but I hear good things about Regolith

and you can just install Regolith and it will kind of slap on top of your Linux system and modify it in various ways. I could not, like, Regolith was cool, but it wasn't exactly right for me. I tuned it a bunch and then I was like, eh, there's some stuff about Gnome that I'm annoyed with.

Let's try KD. Like, my system is real weird now. Because there's a lot of gnome and there's a little bit of regolith and there's definitely but I'm mainly using KDE and at some point I should just switch to

if it's still a thing, neon, which is like the KDE project I believe maintains an Ubuntu variant that is running KDE. Interesting. Does KDE still come

with a bunch of other like desktop apps like Conqueror for instance? Yeah. That was always my experience back when I was trying different stuff was like no. I loved Amarok.

Yeah. I believe Amarok is gone. They all had Ks in them somewhere. And I felt like when I installed or I chose KDE, I wasn't just getting like a windowing system and some Chrome. I was getting like a suite of apps that I had. And some of them I liked and other ones, I was like. But that's true for Nome as well.

Yeah, maybe I just don't realize it with Nome because it's the default, at least in the system. It's the default for the Linux you use. Yeah, exactly. I mean, Amorok still had the feature that I wish to see in every Mewis. app ever, which is, I guess, just Spotify now. But it's, you could hit and I think you long pressed or right clicked the stop button. And you had the option of queuing a stop to your playlist. Queuing a stop. What do you mean? Like stop after this song? So, yeah, it would essentially be like a

song, because if you start a playlist, but it's like, yeah, I want this song and then I queue a few songs and then like actually stop after that. But no, no one wants that. So like auto play, it like ends in autoplay. It's like if I want to do that in Spotify now, I'd have to build a playlist, add things to that, start the playlist, right? And probably disable some smart shuffle that keeps switching on. But it's just like being able to stop after a few things play back. It sounds like a such a simple thing. Yeah, but I've only ever seen it in Amarok. And Amrock was an amazing music management thing. But no one wants power user features anymore.

It feels like the same thing as like a timer. Just say stop after 20 minutes. Yeah. But you're seeing stop after a certain song, right? Yeah, I mean, it's just like when you hit this part of the play queue, stop. Can you give me an example, use case of this? Like, when are you going to? I'm just curious.

When are you going to use this? So whenever I start a playlist on, yeah, let's say, Spotify. I hit the song I want to hear from the playlist first. Then I scroll through the playlist and queue up some other bangers I want. I don't just randomly listen usually. I curate that list. If I see that the rest of the list is kind of eh, not what I want right now. I love to just cue a stop after that.

Then I don't have to bother about like turning anything off or. But then what happens is you get to silence and don't you go think, I got to go cue some more stuff. Is that what you want to do or you're going to leave? but usually that would be the end of the session as it were oh so you get your sessions timed out are you using pomodora or what's going on here but the thing was also not not pomodoroing my music no i got three songs and then i'm done coding yeah i think it was also a consequence of you were scrolling around your music library and just navigating your collection queuing things up that you wanted to hear right and then it's like after these stop so it didn't keep playing your entire library because you never knew what ended up in there. Gotcha. Or it would just go from A and keep playing.

Yeah, 100%. Orgo by based on recency or that kind of stuff. What's amazing to me is how differently we all use these things. Yeah. It's really kind of wild. And how tightly they optimize for the common case, which... Right. This is something I've always appreciated about a KDE.

Everything's configurable. It's a curse, of course. like it's probably hard to maintain it's tricky it requires a particular mindset but if i want to find a shortcut you can bet it's there uh if i want to customize like the padding of some corner of the world it's yeah sure you're gonna find it and there's just infinity options it's like i have a tiling window manager set up and it's just kwin i believe the name is just like the default window manager and I added a bunch of keyboard shortcuts. I believe that's what

I have at least. This is what drives me nuts about Adobe software which we are stuck with in many ways, is that, and this is a publicly traded company, right? These guys are making good money and have been the best quote unquote

for years in their particular pro tools suite of Yeah, it's a professional standard, let's say. Yeah, exactly, exactly. There's all kinds of keyboard shortcuts. And you can configure them to the hilt. However, it's not going to remember them for very long. It's going to just lose them,

some sort of point upgrade and some sort of like bad memory or like cash clear and like everything you put in there is gone. Not just your keyboard shortcuts, but like your window configurations and your everything, your templates are gone. Whatever you've saved, it's just gone. And you're like, how much money we're paying for? for this software on the annual. It's insane that they get away with this, but I don't know where else to go. I hear, oh, what's the competitor that just turned free because they got bought

by Canva? Affinity. Right. Affinity. What do you use Adobe for? Podcasts, video. Video production, Premier Pro. Oh, do you use Audition? We use Premiere Pro. Those are the two. Those are the two tools that we use the most. Because you can get DaVinci Resolve for essentially free or you can pay like a one-time cost. And guess what? DaVinci Resolve runs on Fedora. Linux. And Linux, of course, Linux, yeah, but yeah.

Which I'm excited about. That's why I'm trying to make it the year of the Linux desktop here in East Coviak household. They're at Adam Studio, yeah. Yeah, because, like, you got Reaper for audio, and I haven't played with these enough yet to have the mileage to really advocate for him yet, but I'm hopeful. You know, one, you could build your own system in the Linux world. You don't have to be stuck with the, I mean, I love Mac hardware.

you're wrong. It's, it's, bar none, some of the most phenomenal innovations ever. It just sucks that you can't upgrade the system. You don't own the system. It owns you in lots of ways. I mean, even for an older system, like they don't maintain, you know, current operating system support for it. So you got an older really great system that should still have modern support, doesn't have support. So it just frustrates me. But, yeah, DaVinci is support on Linux. And so that's, that's very hopeful. that and Da Vinci is really well regarded. I mean, I have lots of friends who do, like, they swear by it only. Colorists were the ones of the first few who migrated, like coloring from, you know, S-Log or whatever you might be shooting in if you're in a Sony camera or even in, like, Canon Log format, going from that law format, having a full dynamic range of the color. Coloring in, in DaVinci is really, really proper. And so it started there, probably about five or six.

years ago, there was a revolution of migration away from the current standard to DaVinci and it was... Premier is known for crashing. Yeah. People were like even if they were super comfortable and like knew their workflow super well, it's like

oh, but really they hate this piece of software deeply. Like, visceral level. Yeah. Yeah, I've used DaVinci. Some of the keyboard shortcuts drive me nuts and some of the workflows absolutely seem back to me. But overall, like, it's very capable. It's very competent.

It's just not always wired the same way I am, which is, I suppose, fine. I've used Reaper for podcast. Reaper is fine. It's more suited to music production, but it works fine for podcasts. Like, podcasts demand fewer things than music. So what would you use for podcast then if it's, if you're not thinking of Reaper? I would probably use Reaper. because it's a better option or possibly even like resolve because you can.

What is the open source one? It's on Windows or on Mac as well but it's on Linux that everyone uses. Audacity. Yeah. Thank you.

Maybe that has gotten improved. They were supposed to do a bunch of UX work and stuff. I found audacity completely incomprehensible most of the time that I used it. But that was years ago. And I believe Tentacruel

got involved a YouTuber in music. Oh, okay. You said that very cool. I think it's a cool person. I believe there's this particular melody I should use, but I'm not a regular

viewer of his, so it's like tend to be cruel or something to that effect, I don't know. Wow. Not even a regular viewer and you're still getting the melody. He must have a pretty good thing going on. I looked at it way back, and there was a lot of controversy as well because they kind of took over.

Whenever you reference my name, I want you to use this particular, you know, connotation, or not connotation. I'll sue you. Just to close a loop to here, I pull back the release notes for Fedora 43 just to give proper, because I didn't give it proper. It is using Nome. It is Whaling only.

So Fidora 43 is Whaling only. Deprecated X-11 support. Looks like Nome 49, if I can recall that correctly, maybe Nome 50 from Grock on this stuff. I remember Nome 2. Wow. Showing your age, loss. I think what I liked about so far at least, is that it feels a lot like if you said,

I like the general user experience of a Mac, but I want Linux. It's like that. It's got a lot of similarities, but not the kind of similarities where you're like, oh, I can tell you're copying and not doing a good job. It's like, no, you're being inspired by and you're doing a good job. Like the gestures, the motions are very smooth.

And I've just been very impressed with Fedora 43, honestly. and I'm encouraged to try Reaper potentially just to see how it flows for me. There's a lot of things that keep me liking audition and just Da Vinci. Because I, you know, Jared, I really hate the fact that we feel that way. Like, while I love having a workflow, it sucks that we're strangled by the beast, let's just say. And we're stuck to a platform and we're stuck to our workflow, which is all good things you want to have in a systematized world. But the lack of freedom in that and the ability to change feels like extreme lock-in that is expensive at worst and just sad at best. It's just not cool to be like that.

I hear some people use Blender for video editing as well. Blender's open source. That's like a 3D thing, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean originally, but it's kind of like, okay, so if you're doing a full-on 3D movie production application, that's a super set of video production. sure and much like a video it's a super set of a podcast it's a super set of a podcast yeah exactly yeah i'm with you yeah every once in a while i start looking around and thinking you know what is what does what does better look like but then what's her name from the from the meme gets in my head ain't nobody got time for that you know like she just starts singing her song and i'm just like

nah i got that stuff to get done you know i mean i i produced a conference mostly using open source design tools for all the visual bits. Yeah. And then we had to print things. Like, I did almost everything in Inkscape. I like Inkscape. It's very competent. And then they were like, yeah, give me that

in CMYK Colorspace. And it's like, nope. And I'm like, yeah, maybe I can shift it over to Gimp and do it. No. How did you do it? I paid Adobe for Illustrator because that's the standard for print shops.

oh yeah see there they are the standard you know yeah it was fine up to that point it was a pro tip never use a gradient in your logo for a conference that was the problem was a gradient yeah no yeah well no it wasn't the only problem but the gradient was a problem right it's a challenge i feel like there's a lot of things happening at the Linux front on this front like there it's going to be a shift and i think the moment you can actually get creators I'd say me like graphics obviously like you were just suggesting there but like video and audio

like the moment you can get those folks fully over to the Linux world that's where the tides change you know that's where the tide's changed because being able to I mean now if you're trying to buy RAM this moment and it's November 25th right now

not a good time to buy RAM or really any computer parts they're astronomical price right now some good deals because I also hear you can't use four sticks anyways yeah I mean you know the AM5. And I have a friend who works for AMD.

I'm going to ask me about that because that's super sad and see if I can get the behind the scenes. Maybe you can even plot up that, we'll see. But a good friend of mine is an engineer for AMD. But I think, you know, there's a lot of things happening for Linux that's just really, really good. And I know you kind of said what you said about DHH and Marci, but I think even that, like, I think it's cool that what he was able to do with it is

cool that you can make your own Linux. distro like you can't do that with macOS you have none of that freedom at all and absolutely know that freedom of windows and the fact that you can is is really cool but you got to get people to believe in your opinions now a lot of people are liking arch because of a marchy yeah i like i hear good things about the distro as an experience it's it's got a lot of good tastes in it but it's not for me either and i also don't want to be i feel like that's dh h world and i don't like dislike the guy i don't know what your feelings are on him. I don't have a

really, I'm like a centrist, I suppose, on DHS. Not either positive nor negative. I think he's got a lot of cool opinions in our world in terms of tech and stuff like that. But when it comes to O'Marchie, I tried it just because you literally have to if you're a Linux distro, I wouldn't see a hopper, but.

It sounds like you might be hopping a little bit. Yeah, he might be a hopper, Adam. Is that a hopper, though? I mean, what's wrong with being a hopper? I mean, it's not like a bad thing. I think it's a bad thing. I don't know that. Maybe I am hopping.

I would call it sampling, but sure, I'll hop. Hopping is, it comes in phases, and it seems like you might be in a hopping phase. So server down, Ubuntu, all the way. I'm like, all my flows are around Ubuntu. I'm not changing on that front, really at all. I'm not tempted to. I know Fedora is flexible enough to be both desktop or server.

Same with Ubuntu, but I know Ubuntu very well. And so I'm happy for that to be my server. On the desktop front, I feel like you kind of have to hop around a space. before you really get to your final resting place maybe in the Linux world in the distro world because I'm still learning a lot about, I would say pretty much learning all brand new stuff when it comes to desktop Linux, which I've never done before. And so I started with Amartri just because there you go. Then it was Arch itself, which you can see the remnants behind me. And then Fedora 43, which is really awesome. So I'm happy with that exploration so far. That's

been the extent of it. A little Ubuntu desktop, but I didn't think it was, it didn't feel super polished comparative to, say, Fedora, but it was nice. I like Fedora 43. I like Wayland. I like what they're doing with Nome. I like the UI design of it. It feels smooth and buttery.

So I'm happy there. But I guess I am a hopper in that regard. So I think you're in a perfectly normal I am trying the Linux desktop phase. Man. So this was, when I was introduced to Linux. and got some help getting started with Linux from a from a friend this was in my teens I ran through like I started with slackware he introduced he kind of forcibly had me try open BSD and free BSD because he was sort of done with Linux for now he was playing with Solaris and the BSDs but then I tried let's see Gento mandrake debian a few others and then you had all the like Knopix and like the live CDs that you could just boot into RAM. And so you could have Linux at school because you had it on a CD and you could boot it.

Oh, I definitely did that. Until they started gluing them shut. The CD drives were being glued shut. That was a thing. Mostly to prevent installing games, they didn't care about Linux. Let's be clear. But they didn't know what that was. You weren't on the radar.

It's all about the gamers. But yeah, I ran through a bunch of distros in the beginning, and then I settled into one for a period of time. Then I've, when I've set up a new work computer for a new company I'm at, for Linux, it's just been like Ubuntu completely stock, installed the things I'm missing that are critical, and then I live in an editor and a web browser and don't care very much about the OS. But this workstation that I live at now that I run my own business and can screw around more

of my time, it's weird and custom, but at a certain point, I just got fed up with poking the desktop and moved on. So it is in whatever state it is that I could never reproduce this. It is not not reproducible. You didn't say the term ricing. Would you consider what you do, rising? Ricing. I've never heard that one. Oh, well, let me educate you guys. I'm barely educated myself, okay? Please do. Apparently, I think this is a phenomenon in Linux in particular, is when you dial it in your desktop environment.

It's called ricing. Why? I don't know. Let me look it up a quick. I have not heard that. Ricing refers to the extensive customization of a system's appearance and functionality. So a lot of people would just rice to show off how it can look and how uniquely different it can look, not so much it's functionality.

I need the etymology of this term, though. Like, why are we calling it rising? The term ricing was inherited from car modification culture where it was originally a derogatory term for race-inspired cosmetic enhancements, aka rice. Oh, race-inspired cosmetic enhancement. So just looking cool. This referred to adding cosmetic parts to inexpensive Asian import cars to make them look. Now, I've riced. Okay, I've riced at least once one car, okay?

Now that I'm reading this, not a Linux desktop, but I riced a Honda-Dohsoul. I added a really cool muffler to it. And it sounded cool, same engine, still burned oil too. So rising is similar to like a rhino or a dino. These are what they call, like, a Republican name only or a Democrat in name only where it's like, you say you're this, but you're not. If you're rising your car, you're saying you're doing it to make it faster, but you're actually not. You're doing it to make it look nicer or to make it look fast. So when you're ricing your OS, like Losh has just done over the course of many years, he's got it perfectly.

No, no. My OS looks terrible. but it does work yeah I cross the wires apparently it's a cosmetic thing and not so much dialing it in which he's talking about dialing it in for him it's also cosmetic I think it leans more cosmetic actually I think Amarchi is a big old rice like that's DHH rice right there you know

but it's also an opinionated configuration my yeah my setup I would say is highly tuned for certain utility functions and that's stuff like I actually do a bunch of audio and video stuff from Linux, which is generally inadvisable. Why do you do it then? I know a ton of people that go, oh, I use my Mac whenever I record a podcast, but I've made it work, and I made it. To me, it's been fairly reliable, but I also paid too much for gear. So, but I do have a script that resets all my USB controllers because sometimes they just fail. This also can happen on MacOS,

Like sometimes it's just like, I got to reboot something. Sure. Because something is just up. Dropbox. But, Quick time. Oh, yeah. Adam's had a problem with QuickTime player,

which is a 30-year-old Apple software that you'd think would be stable by now. But no. Yeah. Yeah, not the way they're treating their OS. Something I miss on Linux for like media production is that there is no Rogamiba. if you know the Rogue Amoeba set of audio apps, for example. There's like pipewire and Jack and all these things. So the whole infrastructure for making the Rogamiba apps

is probably more accessible in Linux because it's already there. It's like it's already a node-based system where you can connect things and yada, yada. And there's UIs for playing around with it sort of, but nothing. to the degree of polish and stability that you find like these these hardcore Mac apps doing. And it's tricky because of course there's not a market for it

until there's more people attracted to doing that and it's a catch-22 which is always the case with Linux. That's what brought me to the Mac originally was the third party in the small software such as Quicksilver

such as transmit, such as Rogamiba. these small software shops that just create the most polished little tools that I loved. It's ridiculously good sometimes. Yeah, and you're like, this is just really good software. Whereas over in Windows, where I previously was, you could find something that does everything, but it was like the Wild Wild West of UIs, and the quality was massively varying, and there was shareware, and there was lots of other stuff, like shovelware, and none of that existed.

Compared to the Windows experience, I prefer the weirdness of Linux, the type of weird that the Linux app environment is, where it's like either you find a script or you might find a UI, and it has all the options and all the knobs and all the weird things. And it's kind of hard to understand sometimes. But I prefer that to like, oh, this is a weird Windows UI that is quirky and downloaded from a weird website. Some of those are awesome, though, like putty or whatever. legends, but also freaking. Yeah, Puddy is legendary and like such a weird interface too. For me, it was the first way at time my SSH was through Puddy. And I mean, I think figuring out Puddy's UI was the hardest part of the SSAH process there, you know? Yeah, it was like, what is this happening here? Yeah, it was very challenging. But it was cool once you figured it out.

I mean, it made sense eventually. I guess all software kind of does if you just rewire your brain to use it. Yeah, I don't feel like macOS is going in. the right direction, both in terms of like encouraging like this, this phenomenal grassroots in the app movement that they have. But also like just where they're taking things, they don't care about that. Like they don't care about the power users. There are parts of Apple that care about the power users. But what I use my Mac for, like the Mac I have that I use is a MacBook Air, M2 MacBook Air. It's covered as stickers.

It goes with me when I travel or when I go to work at other places. It's a phenomenal, dumb terminal type of browser machine. It has ridiculous battery life and everything. It has a Unix underneath it so I can do terminal things. I'm perfectly happy with that. Eventually, the macOS might eject me. It has in the past, like where I essentially abandoned it. but it's just like

it's very good laptops. I was very hopeful about framework but I'm not thrilled about well that gets us back into Omarchi but yeah they're making choices that I disagree with which is a bummer because on the whole framework was doing what I'd

like to see from hardware. What is their choice I'm not familiar with the choice. Oh so they're funding O'Marchi development and also some other controversial developers so so it's not so much technical but social. No, no, no, it's ideological and political from my perspective. Kyle, we are in an era of disruption, right?

I would also describe it as rethinking what we thought was true. And I guess that's kind of the definition of disruption. But from your perspective, how are teams, reliability teams, CICD, pipeline teams, how are they all rethinking things? And where does Depot fit into that? In the conversations that I have with customers, a lot of DevOps teams, platform teams, site reliability teams, they're really looking at this new era of software engineering

that we're all living in, and they're starting to question, like, the bottleneck is no longer the act of writing code. The bottleneck is shifting. The most time-consuming part is integrating the code. It's everything that comes after. It's the build. It's the pull request review. It's the deployment. It's the getting it into production. Once it's in productions, it's scaling up support teams to support it. It's adding documentation, all of these downstream problems. And so through the lens of Depot, what we're really starting to think about is there's a very realistic possibility that within the next two to three years, maybe even sooner, that we're going to enter a world where an engineering team of three people could theoretically have the velocity of an

engineering team of 300 people. And what's the consequences of that? What's the consequences of the code velocity spiking up to that level with such a small team? There's no way three engineers are going to be able to code review all of the code that's being created if there's three engineers and 297 agents also creating features and fixing bugs so that's just like from a pull request perspective but then you think about it through a build lens too of if your builds take 20 minutes with three humans and now you're going to have three humans and 297 agents also running well like you definitely don't want your builds taking 20 minutes because now like the entire pinch point is the build pipeline. And so we're starting to think a lot about how do we eliminate the bottlenecks

that come downstream and what can we do with Depot that streamlines that. So obviously friends, we are in an era of disruption. Things are changing. You know it. I know it. That's how it is and the thing with production and what Kyle's talking about here is how in the world do you get your bills to be faster? How you get them to be more reliable, faster, more observability around those deployments? You need it. It's required. And Depot is there. to help you. So a good first step is to go to depot.dev, get faster, try their trial. It's too easy. Again, depot.dev is where to go. It all begins at depot.dev. And also by our friends at Framer, stop jumping between tools. You know, most design tools lock you behind a paywall.

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start creating for free at framer.com slash design and use the promo code change log for a free month of Framer Pro. Once again, framer.com slash design and use our code, change log, and you get a free. free month of Framer Pro. Enjoy. Here's the thought I've had recently, and I think Adams made me think this thought. I don't think I'm a power user anymore. I just feel like I'm a regular user. You're just a developer style user. Like, yeah, yeah, I'm dicing. Developer tools. Yeah, exactly. But it's not exactly

a niche. It's a very common user. No, it's not anymore, is it? I just don't, I don't do weird stuff that much. Like, I'm just trying to have a right software. That's the weirdest thing I do is I like code. But everything else I do is pretty normal computer stuff. And so I don't bump up against the limitations that Mac OS, I see the headlines. And I definitely see the direction they're heading. And I know about the gatekeeper stuff.

And now I'm talking technical gatekeeper, not the social or political gatekeeping. Like, I know that they're definitely moving more and more away from, and power users and like my ability to like call it my own computer and intellectually I despise that like I can have a computer that I can't control and do whatever I want on it but practically I just don't care because I just don't ever it doesn't really affect you no no it doesn't it just doesn't really and so I don't have the I mean wanderlust is the wrong idea or the wrong word to it but like that like Adam is he's hot he's he's he's rising or he's hopping he's whatever he's doing he's sampling because he wants to do stuff that macOS is holding him back from

which is mostly like hardware stuff but it's stuff he wants to do and i just really hard to get four dims into into a yeah man the four dim problem is real on the mac side for sure also jared i got to acknowledge uh thank you for wearing a shirt that i produced oh i'm glad you noticed it i put it on for you i got my elixir t-shirt on now did you make this design in Linux land? So that design is the official elixir logos I did not make it.

Yeah, so... Somehow you had to send this to the printer. Yeah, I sent the original that I got from Jose to the printer. Printed with permission and all that. Yeah, so you've been doing elixir stuff. I guess we could hard transition that way

via this shirt, which makes it... Hard swerve. Actually, I can bring us there because you're saying you do development and you don't. hit weird quirks with like macOS and stuff. Yeah, not really. So I used to mostly do Alexa development like straight up web dev and generally did not have problems because a lot of elixir development happens on macOS. It's pretty straightforward. But I've increasingly been doing embedded, embedded Linux and elixir development. And that takes me straight out of the

mainstream. I compile Linux kernels multiple times a day. And like build root, the thing I use for building Linux kernels does not run on macOS. So you can run it in Docker, but it's a lot slower. I do not run Docker for that reason. Yeah. And in this case, it's just like raw compiles and like the disk abstractions for Docker slows everything down. Actually, Macs are super fast at doing all these compiles if you just put a Linux virtual machine in them. So abstracted, they're very fast. So what have you been working on then? You're making some embedded systems here?

Yeah. So there is an embedded Linux framework. It's an IOT framework, but I have to say embedded Linux so that the embedded microcontroller people don't get mad because they'll go, oh, you call. that embedded these days. Oh, yeah, yes, I know you're dealing with kilobytes and I'm dealing with gigabytes. It's fine. Like, it's still called embedded by some people. Yeah, you're still embedding it. It's still a single purpose device and everything's locked down and

yada, yada. So the Nerves Project and the NERVs framework, so Nerves dash project.org, it's an open source framework for, and it's a very opinionated framework for building iot devices and smart devices it's ideal for anything that would already run linux so smart home hubs smart thermostats that kind of thing usually things that have power and usually things that need to do a lot of networking or where it makes sense to do higher level of abstraction development because you have a lot of stuff to connect and build so it kind of lines up with what erlang and elixir consequently was originally four

like Erlang was four telecom systems and telecom switches are single purpose devices they're just meant to do a ton of things they're not like an air quality sensor they do a lot more but fundamentally it's just like you want a thin layer of OS and then you have the

beam virtual machine which is like an OS onto itself it does a lot of stuff and you can operate it much like an OS you can stop and start things. It does a lot of the concurrency. You can introspect what's going on in the system. And you get that on top of a very slim Linux system.

So just an embedded, very tiny Linux system. And then on top of that, you build your app in Elixir or in Erlang, or I believe you should be able to do it in Gleam as well, though it's, I don't think anyone's really pushed that path. but any beam language will run on it and I started using nerves when I was getting curious about elixir so that was like seven eight years ago something like that and I poked around and I implemented like a little yink display on a raspberry pie and it was a ton of fun and super friendly community and it got me sort of practiced with elixir in just hobbyist projects and then I worked

Elixir, did web systems and stuff, but I've kept coming back to NERVs off and on and tracked it. And I started doing the NERFs newsletter to keep people posted about what's happening in nerves and stuff. So eventually I fell into the NERV's core team and I started, I started doing a lot more NERVs projects. And I found my first Nerves oriented client that wanted me to help them get from, like they were spinning up a new hardware product. And they wanted to use nerves, but they wanted some reassurance about how they were going about it because they were new to an elixir. And then I picked up other clients that are also nerve-centric, and I've done a lot of talks

on nerves at this point. I've done a lot of library development. I've worked with multiple companies on their nerves devices. So that's kind of what I do now. And I've started, so Nerves comes with, well, there's a sibling project called Nerves Hub, which is over-the-air firmware updates. So it's a service that you can spin up. So you can self-host it, or you can go to nervscloud.com,

which is our little venture, completely bootstrapped at this point. We were considering VC backing, but then we looked at the market and realized, no, no, that's not happening right now, because it's not an AI play. Right, NervesA.I. Hub, and then you're talking. Yeah, yeah. NervesCloud. that AI. Exactly. But it's essentially for keeping your fleet up today,

checking in all the health of devices, making sure that you can send updates to devices and recover them if there are issues, that kind of thing. So NERVs comes with a lot of solid opinions about how to set up embedded devices, stuff you don't necessarily think about when you're new. So it's actually a pretty good learning experience for getting into Embedded.

I come from WebDev, so I didn't know embedded. Yeah. And my first impulse for building an embedded system would have been slap Debian on it. But it's kind of a tricky thing to live with to have Debian. Like, there are definitely products that do this and they can absolutely work. But how consistent is AptGet update, App to Get Upgrade? Are you confident that the system will come back if you reboot after that? how confident

drive a thousand miles confident right send someone on a two week trip to the middle of Africa confident it's like embedded devices end up in good excuse for a vacation

though right I gotta go to yeah okay let's let's go with industrial laser is down and now confident it's just a big problem

if your updates fail yeah so typically what embedded devices do is like they have an A and B partition. This is a blue green deploy essentially where you write to the unused partition

you flip a flag that says try to boot that one. It reboots comes up and if it succeeds it marks that as good we're staying on this and if it doesn't it should switch back automatically.

It should switch back. There's a bunch of different mechanisms and it depends on bootloader support and if you are making good choices about health checks and stuff. But the mechanisms are there for making a very reliable switch back and forth. So Nerves provides that or there's a distro that's non-Debby and that provides that and the Nerve sits on top. So Nerves builds on top of an embedded Linux project called BuildRoot. Okay, that's BuildRood. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. It builds your Linux. kernel. It builds your root file system. So all the, all the various binaries and things you

need for running. So usually a busy box with with a bunch of commands like LS and cat and all the good stuff. And usually a bootloader. So you boot is a very popular one. But if you're running Raspberry Pis, for example, you just use their kind of strange bootloader setup, which goes through the GPU for some reason, video core. It's strange, but it's a broad company. And right now I'm working with a project which uses something called Amboot, which

is different. And I don't love it, but it works. Okay. But it's like embedded devices are very finicky and it's very hardware dependent. So when you pick up nerves, you should look at the list of supported

systems to start with. Once you get deeper into it, you can actually bring up a new board or something. But we support all the Raspberry Pi boards, all the sort of Linux level ones, not the Pi Pico, because that's a microcontroller. But like Bigelbone Black, it's an old classic. We have a bunch of newer ones. And then there's a bunch of community contributed ones as well. So I have a bunch of various accidental Linux device purchases.

Like this is a Raspberry Pi but it has a I'm holding it up to the camera which is great podcast but it has a display and it has a keyboard and actually a track ball it's the clockwork

pie you console Can you show that more can you do some flipping around with it show me the back of it if you don't mind Oh yeah yeah it's weird It has a sort of thing

you can hang it on I don't know why A little heat sink Is that a heat sink? This no it's just space It's just space for the batteries Okay cool But it's a neat thing.

And then there's like Seed Studio who does a nice industrial kiosk, which is also just a Raspberry Pi, but extra hardware on top. It's just a ton of fun stuff. So I have a ridiculous amount of embedded hardware at home right now. Tons of fun, but this also leads to me to compile into the Linux kernel very frequently. Do the Zima board approach that world? competes with Raspberry Pi to some degree as a single-board computer, but does Zima board

kind of... I mean, you could, if it's Intel, if we have a system for generic X-86, so you could probably just run that on top of it. It's got a cool design to it. It's got a heat scene built into it. It's got power. You can plug drives into it, a set of drives into it, for example.

I think it's got a PCIE slot where you can throw on a GP or a little bonus thing. If you want to, like, throw on a 10-gabit network or something like that. I just wondered if that was supported as part that world too or if it's just like raspberry pie type things this is cute uh no uh this would probably work it might be that the it might require some driver here and there it depends on the linux support essentially right uh and depending on how new everything is you might need to pull in

like a slightly newer or slightly patched linux that's it's always a bunch of details you're embedding your own though so can you can you can you it sounds like you're compiling your own kernel so couldn't you just yeah so depend on just make your own kernel kind of thing yeah essentially what what happens if you have a slightly off the golden path set up is that you might have to tweak it yeah and that is somewhere in between straightforward or terrible depending on your experience with little your experience and your luck essentially yeah there's a fair chance that this just because it's an x86 board just works yeah but it might not work at full speed for example if it's like oh this processor is so new or this uh ram only needs extra drivers to run a full speed or whatever

or maybe four sticks doesn't work you know it's right yeah gosh yeah what there's a lot of details to hardware. Is Central Lane the Raspberry Pi then? A Raspberry Pi is the absolutely easiest way to get started. Yeah. Like just grab a Pi 4 or 5 and like you essentially just start up one of our sample projects. So you can grab something like Nerves Livebook, which is a cool project. You've had Jose Willim on the show. He's probably mentioned Livebook, but it's like Code Notebooks. So you can get the NERF's device to start with a code notebook so you can run a bunch of things and a bunch of examples on the device

through your browser to sort of try things and get started. But yeah, people build very real products with this, but there are entry points for hobbyists. But the focus of the framework is actually the very serious end of things. It's like we try to be very friendly and welcoming because a lot of people seem to learn.

What's serious to you? So one of the clients, my clients recently, when they're talking about deployment, it's more than 100,000 devices. Wow. Yeah, it's a lot. It's smart thermostats across homes in the US. So if you screw them up, people would be pretty mad,

especially if their thermostat, like if their thermostat starts misbehaving, very noticeable is that PICA's then in that case or is that still a Raspberry Pi of sorts in that deployment

or is that custom PCBs kind of thing Entirely custom board Yeah So they've they've designed a fully custom board Like

Yeah I don't have one within reach But they have a few different thermostats Interesting Smartrent is the company In question So you can do serious

business with it but you can also do side business, which is just fun business. I can do incredibly silly things with it. I have a sensor in my greenhouse right now that runs nerves that I integrate with my home assistant so my wife can get notifications when the greenhouse is too warm or too cold. Right now it's always too cold because it's the winter in Sweden

are starting to become winter in Sweden. But we've set it up for the coming season. I just recently discovered that we have a way to build home assistant things with nerves and now I'm abusing it. Right. So where is she getting her notifications and how? On the phone. Because she has the home assistant app.

So her phone is addressable within home assistant. And then I can just go, okay, when the temperature is below this, send a notification to her. If it's above this, send a notification to her. describe the architecture of home assistant in a house you have one device that runs home assistant somewhere that's kind of your server in some sense minus a Raspberry Pi that only runs home assistant and then in my case I've slapped in some power over Ethernet ZigB controllers to be able to use ZigB devices so that's radio radio control lights and stuff Um, IKEA's stuff is Zigby. So I'm, I'm living the Swedish dream, I guess. Um, but, IKEA's coming out with a whole new set of. Yeah, but, but I don't have to buy their hubs. I just connect my, connect their devices to my controller. Right. Zigby lets it be compatible, right? It's about Zigby, not so much the hub itself. Yeah. So it's, uh, like, usually you pick Zigby or Z wave.

And that's your life. Um, are you Zigby for life then? I think I'm pretty... Right now, I'm definitely Zigby. I need to make a serious investment to switch. So what's the... Did you do the Zigby Z-Wave compare and contrast? Did you shop it hard? Or are you just like, well, Zigby's...

Well, Frank Honliff stared hard at me. So he's the guy who created Nerves because the company that he worked at, SmartRent, they use Z-Wave. And he was like, you're not using Z wave. I'm like, well, I've heard good things about Zigby and also IKEA, so I can afford lamps, lots of lights.

I'm curious why you choose to run that on a Raspberry Pi versus, say, a virtual machine or something like that, where you can have like maybe a beefy machine. I don't really have a server set up at home. Okay. I like to, but I haven't bothered yet. Okay. And also one of the nice things about setting up home assistant OS on a Raspberry Pi is that it takes the, it takes up sort of the entire pie, but it can also update. Actually, it is built on BuildRoot and he uses an AB partition type setup for updates. It is very close to a NERV's device, but it runs Python instead. but yeah it seemed like a reasonable setup for for my needs at some point I might migrate it

but this is also like home assistant is new to me okay I never bothered getting into it but I listened to the self-hosted podcast for years eventually I'm like yeah okay it's time I need somewhere to report this information where my wife can get at it so I like that you're using it that makes me think more like just having home assistant in obviously a home but I would say home lab or some sort of lab environment where you're experimenting and building things having a home assistant be that conduit that you can I know it has a voice system built into it I know you can these are all things I want to do eventually I just haven't gotten there yet so I'm sure you'll nod on the things you're probably getting tickled with but

you can have an API key to a local LLM so maybe you run a LOMA. somewhere in your network or on the actual device itself, your mileage may vary, you know, that this home assistant world becomes a centerpiece. And it sounds like you've tapped into the notification ability because you don't have to run a service or pay an external service to map

a notification up to the cloud and back down to your wife just because your greenhousees, temperature goes up or down as you want to. That's, the home assistant world is really, really interesting to me. I haven't had time to tinker with it yet, but I am curious, though. It's going to eat all of your time. It is such a tinkerhole.

It is amazing, but also terrifying. I want to do stuff with E-ink, too. Like, you got me excited about this, you know, build route, e-ink, nerves, notifications, home assistant. You know, like, all those things to me is just like, just forget the entire thing, right? Whatever else is out there and just do that. Sleep, a little tiny bit, and then do that all the time. Yeah, yeah. I've kind of optimized my life so that I get to tinker with hardware professionally at this point.

Sounds like it, yeah. Yeah, it's not a bad scheme. But actually, on the e-ink part, the little e-ink display I did for my first Nerve's project was way back. But with the conference that we did, it was Goatmire Elixir. So it was here in tiny little vaude about it. I pulled in nearly 200 people, 150 attend, about 30 speakers and a bunch of volunteers and stuff. And we did three days of Elixir.

One of the days were dedicated to nerves. And it was a great time. And something we managed to score a sponsorship for, actually specifically from Tigris. You're familiar with them. They supported us with some budget for hardware. So we made custom hardware for the conference. Big shout out to Gus Workman.

He's also on the Nerves Corps team. He wasn't at the time, but he designed an e-ink display that could also, with a battery, a few buttons, and a tiny little processor, pretty cheap one that he'd been working with, an all winner of some sort, and made it run nerves. and it has a Wi-Fi chip on it. So every attendee got a little e-ink display as part of the conference. That's sick. Yeah, it was kind of wild. Could you send them messages via it?

Could you broadcast and everybody's eating display updates at the same time? Yeah, I mean, it would pull down the schedule and show that. And if you futs around for long enough, you'd find a Rickroll. And there were a few things in it. it worked really well like the software and the networking could have needed more work but Gus

already put in a heroic effort to get it out at all it was real real real good people enjoyed it and we'll probably I hope to make more of these conferences and if so we'll probably iterate on the concept because it was a

it was a blast and just like E-ink displays are so satisfying to people and so interesting to people. And just getting devices into programmers' hands where they can show something in the real world and interact with button presses and stuff, it's a very, very special feeling for like a group of professionals

that generally just do intangible web stuff or backend things. It's just like suddenly things are happening in the real world and it's wild. Yeah, your display is E-ink. I mean, even in a home you could do a lot of cool stuff that you would normally maybe buy an expensive or be tempted to buy an expensive iPad for

when you really just want a trusty display and maybe a stable OS to broadcast to and Wi-Fi accessible, et cetera, you can do with low-powered E-ink displays or R-Pi or even a PICO maybe. Do PICOs tap into stuff like that? Are they limited? A pico could drive any ink display, but it's programming a pico is more of a pain in the rear than the larger pies.

But they can run very well off a battery, so there's a trade-off there. How about older R-Pi's? Can you do like R-Pi-3s or even older generations? Do you have to be current like 4-plus? Yeah, I mean, we still support the R-Pi-1. Oh, wow, okay. But it's a pain in the rear again because it does not have networking built in. You need a Wi-Fi USB adapter. There you go.

I have a Raspberry Pi that's not doing anything. I mean, I should dive into this world. Yeah, I mean, spin up nerves on it and then think about what you might do with it. And then my expectation is that you're going to put it back in the drawer because I don't think you have a plan for what you want to do with any particular hardware. I still have one project that I never did that I should do. I think the last time I talked about it was when we had a fellow on talking about automating your house with Python or something like that,

which is a very similar to yours, greenhouse temperature detector, a icebox temperature detector. So if the ice box was a bunch of frozen meat breaks, well, it's down in our storage room. So we don't go down there enough to actually happen upon it. We might lose all that meat. And so if I could detect anomalies in temperature, although I want too warm, not too cold necessarily. Too cold is just fine.

I just want to know about it before my meat all goes bad. So that would require temperature sensor and probably home assistant, I suppose, to be able to get the notification. And I mean, maybe basically the exact setup you have with different code, right? Yeah, pretty much. Just send me a link to your repo. I'll just deploy that sucker. What do you do for metrics and observability? Do you get into dashboarding of this stuff at all or Prometheus?

So the way I keep track of how my device is doing is actually NERF's Cloud because I know the guy who runs it. It's me and my co-founder. But I don't track like, oh, what's the CPU of my sensor over like the last three months? Because I don't care. but I have whatever history. I don't remember what our retention is. It's probably like a couple of weeks.

But Nerves Cloud will by default track a bunch of health metrics for your devices as they connect and stay connected. But that's about it. But I also don't need more than like, is it reporting or not? If it's reporting in with data that looks reasonable, I'm perfectly happy. But if I go, if I have a problem with my device, I can go to NIRS cloud. I can open a console into it and get the IEX prompt and operate it as any beam system. So I can go, hey, actually, what processes are running? Hey, why is this not running?

Oh, let's check the logs. Let's check the kernel logs. Let's investigate. It's like I get access both to the Linux system and the higher level beam system. and I can poke around with that from my OTA platform in a web browser. So that's kind of convenient. What about a dead man switch? So if my device failed.

If someone lets go of the device, no. Well, I'm thinking about your greenhouse now. Or I'm thinking about my freezer, which is my device is measuring temperature and reporting anomalies. But if the device itself fails, it's no longer reporting. But if there was some sort of dead man switch that's like, hey, your device. and no longer active, that's a notification that I want. I believe you could set up an automation in Home Assistant that goes, hey, if you haven't seen this device for this long.

I haven't looked at that, but that's something worth looking at. Because the greenhouse thing does run out of battery frequently because we don't have power in the greenhouse currently. Ideally, these things just run on power. Or maybe I will actually at some point bother with a microcontroller because those sit power and can run for a couple of years off of a couple of AA batteries. It depends kind of what you're setting up. That's interesting.

It took me all of like four hours to set up, to essentially fully set up sensors with nerves. It would take me more than four hours with microcontrollers because I'm not as well versed with them. I think with ESP Home, you could do it pretty quick if you know what you're doing. I don't know ESP home yet, so I might get there. But something I really like about working with nerves is that it lets me take all the know-how I have from, like, web development and my elixir development, and just apply it on top of hardware.

So I can still do my web requests. I can talk to the internet. I can do all that stuff. I can set up a web server, and then that's my local web UI for that. that device, but it's doing something that's much more embodied, I guess. It's in the real world. It can help me switch relays or it can, like, we're probably going to get a watering system that we can integrate with home assistant so that we can actually go, hey, this moisture sensor says things are getting a bit dry. Let's run the, let's run the, let's run the, uh,

water for a for a while or we have this level in the tank we might as well run some water that's cool stuff i mean that's a garden so tell me how this does or does not fit into this world so i run plex and i don't have any time to do this but i have the idea mostly in my brain i'd like to have a digital display outside of my media room that has a now showing and it's data from plex so i don't want to go and pull down the album art. I've already chosen it inside aplex from my stuff. I want that kind of thing there. I guess some other ideas for it too that are more like a mailing list or at least a page.

I can send people to say, hey, if you want to come watch a movie at my house, here are all the movies we have available. That way, I'm not like, well, if you get to sit down with me for an hour, let's decide what movie to watch or whatever. And then we're like just looking around my playlist or whatever. A little bit more user-friendly on that front, but more so the the now showing. It doesn't E-ink

E-ink doesn't sound fun for that because this is more visual, right? Yeah, yeah. But how does that, what could I do in the nerve world or in this world? Is that even a fit for this? I mean, if you find a like a tablet

that you would like to set up in your home that you can run off of a Raspberry Pi essentially or just any display and just smuggle a pie behind it. Like if you have a small TV, a large TV on your wall, it's fairly easy to just, yeah, shove a pie behind it. And then it's a matter of starting up a kiosk.

And Nerves, we have a bunch of kiosk systems right now. The most up-to-date ones are for the Pi 4 and 5. And with them, you get like a minimal web browser and a minimum compositor, like a whale. alternative essentially. It's Weston plus cog, which is less demanding than like chromium on top of a full

wayland. And then you just can just tell it, oh, load this webpage. And whether you want to build that web page yourself with the Phoenix Web framework, that's one option. Or you can vibe code it, I guess. They actually do pretty well on design, typically, those things.

And I believe Plex has all the APIs you would need it. But I think the fastest path to success for just like now playing is probably home assistant because i think flex can probably shove any information you want into home assistant it is like people will have built all the integrations um and then there's probably just the dashboard you can build up and go hey open this URL to show my dashboard please yeah i'm even thinking about like n8n have you played with that at all N8N, no.

Yeah, gosh, this will break your mind. N8N.I.O. It's like Zapier. It's like if this than that, but it's open source. I've seen some people really do some cool stuff. You can feed things into LLMs. You can go and pull back linear tickets and get commits and, you know, fake your stand-up by shoving all your activity into an L-LM. Be like, this is what I did yesterday, you know, kind of thing.

I just saw a cool dude on YouTube mention that's why that's my idea. It's actually his idea, not mine. Do you want to sing his name for us? Can you sing his name? I don't know. Let me see if I can sing his name. I'll keep talking while I search this, but that seemed pretty interesting to do that kind of thing

where you can like end something. Like now Plex is playing or now something is happening and then it's more of a reactive display versus me having to program it on there. I was just thinking like, what kind of smarts do I need to do to build out the display that isn't going to be a Mac? It's going to be Linux R-Pi sounds like it should be,

but I've never done anything beyond just the R-Pi sitting there doing its R-Pi thing with no display. It's really the most of it's been, has been a POE hat to just avoid the additional power brick or maybe network and run Pile. That's about the extent I've ever utilized my R-Py's. And I got two Raspberry Pi-4s, one with four gigs and one with eight gigs. So they're both very capable. And I have no use case for them currently. Yeah, I mean, you could fairly quickly install a little bit of the elixir tooling, flash, well, grab the NERVs kiosk, example, repo and build and flash that thing. And the only thing you probably want to edit is like which URL does it open.

And that's a mighty, easy finder a place. Yeah. This might be a curbel, but I don't think those things open source at them. I think it's just like source available. It's fair source, sustainable source license, something. Oh, gosh. Well, they said it was open source. Like I said, I'm not versed in it yet, but I heard good things about it.

It's open. A code is available to see. They call it fair code. Yeah, their license looks somewhat proprietary. It sounds like it's a BSL-type deal. It seems free for personal use. Yeah, certain files are not licensed. Other files are like sustainable use.

use license and then other files, if they contain.e.e in their file name, you have to hold a valid N8N Enterprise license. So some muddy waters on this one. Okay. Muddy the waters on that one. I thought they said it was core open source, like open core. Like some of it was and some of it wasn't. To close a loop, though, is Dreams of Code. Dreams of Code on YouTube is the channel. How do you sing that, though? You know, I don't say, Jared. I don't, I just speak very eloquently, malifelessly, as they may say.

They might. Dreams of code. I.io, cool stuff there. I've watched their videos. I don't know. I can't remember the fellow's name. I'm trying to find it. But Dreams of Code is the...

This is his idea. Yeah, it's his idea. He did this. He's like, hey, I got to do stand-up. Stand-up sucks. I always forget what I did. And so he built a thing with N8N to pull back data from Git,

from the previous day, so whichever repos may be in the spectrum that he'd give standups on, pull back some linear details from like linear tracking their engineering practices or whatever. And I think maybe a couple more sources and then fed that to the LLM and the LLM, you know, messaged him via Slack personally what he did yesterday. And I thought that was, you know, interesting, you know? Fair. It kind of gave me some ideas.

I'm very glad that I currently only work with clients who don't have the time to have stand-ups with me. I work in weird corners of their efforts. So it's like, yeah, it's usually me and one or two other people that chat when we need anything. Yeah. No need for stand-ups. Awareness, but not stand-ups, gosh. And even like a standing stand-up every day is like, especially in like a company, I would say really of any size, is almost like a waste of time. That could totally be not a meeting. Now, if you're doing it for the personal reasons for the interpersonal relationships. It's a different story.

But, you know, I think even then your mileage may vary. It can be done well, especially in physical office situations. It's like, yeah, it can be kind of neat to just all be face to face and share what you're working on so people can resolve things. But, yeah, I'm glad to not be pulled in to that because my, my, my, schedule is scatter shot as it is. It's like spread all all over the place. I do a lot. I'll do a lot of different things and I kind of like it that way. And spending any time on coordinating would eat through it quickly. Maybe as a close, could you map out in like, let's say a minute or a minute

a half? Someone who's uninitiated, they've listened, they've been like curious. Maybe they like me they've got an R-Pyne sitting around with no use. What's a good first next step? What are some good resources? Can you just rattle those off? Give somebody a map to satiate that curiosity. Yeah. So the best place to go would be nurseproject.org or search for NURESPROject.

And you can click learn and then you can go to installation or getting started. You'll end up needing to do the installation. even if you go to getting started, so maybe start there. And then you can run through that. That has good getting started instructions. And depending on kind of what you want to do, if you just want to noodle around, I would aim for NERV's Livebook, which is like an interactive code notebook experience where you can get something that does something onto your device pretty quick.

But it's not for any specific purpose. It's mostly for noodling around and getting a little bit situated. If you want to build a specific project, I would follow the guide for setting up like a NERVS project. And that usually means doing elixir development. So then you kind of hit a fork in the road. Do you know Elixir? If you know Elixir, it's just an elixir project. figure out the nerves parts, have fun.

If you don't know Elixir, you should probably also look into Elixir, a little bit. So elixirlang.org is pretty good for that. Also, I have a YouTube channel with a few videos. You can look at my YouTube videos. I don't think they're the probably best introduction to Elixir, but they're all right. Depends on sort of how you like to learn as well.

I'm born and raised on text tutorials. don't put too many pictures in my tutorials or I get annoyed but people are different and want different things so also you can join the elixir discord is pretty good to join and we have a nerves channel that's pretty active and we're happy to have new people come in ask questions you can also ask your questions on the elixir forum if you want sort of the more async cycle And it's also very, very helpful to other people because it's searchable. But yeah, dive in, try it. It's not dangerous.

It doesn't bite. Depending on sort of where you're coming from, it might feel straightforward or it might feel slightly challenging. But it has taught me embedded Linux development over time because nerves contains a lot of accumulated embedded wisdom that's encoded in opinions. And you might swear at it at certain points. And then you like, yeah, okay, I know why they did this. This makes sense as you earn your wisdom. At what point will they have to compile their own Linux kernel? Only if they go to your level where they're helping clients deploy updated devices

across 1,000 hardware devices kind of thing. Is that the scenario where you have to compile your own kernel? No, the moment they want FFMPEG probably. No, you don't have to compile the kernel. You probably end up compiling a kernel at that point, but you don't actually have to touch the kernel to install FFNPIC, but you do have to touch the sort of underpinnings. Or when you need some particular supporting library

for some particular specific thing you're doing that. So we pack in a lot of the default Raspberry Pi tooling. So for example, if you want to work with a Raspberry Pi camera, the tools are already there and there's a superb open CV bindings library for Alexa called EVision if you install that one that one just pulls in open CV without you needing to touch the nerve system but not everything is that nice so you can find places where it's like oh yeah we don't have this built in why don't we have ffmpeg built in well ffmpeg is huge comparatively so a nerve

default image I believe is about 30 megs maybe 40 at this point but it's it's in that range so it's not a big install like the entire image for for the nurse device is 30 to 40 megs and that's very good for when you're building devices and especially when you need to ship updates to devices it makes the updates faster, safer, all that good stuff. So it's a good thing to keep things lean. The Raspberry Pi images actually have some fat that we could definitely trim if we were optimizing, but we're actually optimizing those a little bit more for adoption so that the things you want to try are more likely to work.

But it's a balancing act. So I would say it's a beginner-friendly ecosystem, but it's fun. focused on production grade things. So production grade wins over ease of use in the end in the tradeoffs. I like the idea of going to a world like this where you can play and have the freedom to play. But if you were like, wow, I'm kind of serious about this, well, you're already in a place where you could easily just get serious about what you're playing with and either just migrate your mindset or, you know, just change what you're doing. And now you're actually working on something serious versus like just this play world those are cool but you know when you

want to graduate the next thing it's it's already you're currently already in the in the professional mindset of being able to deploy serious stuff yeah and the the development loop of embedded devices can be pretty annoying it's just like you build some more code you ship it over to the pie you run it there or you develop on the pie but how do you do you do proper source control when you're doing that and it's like the workflow is kind of weird but for nerves

you develop on your on your host machine like your laptop or regular computer and then you ship updates over and when you're iterating on something

where you need to cycle really fast you might actually just be pasting code over the Repel because you can do that in Alexa but when you need to build

something and then ship it over it's just like mix upload and then it goes and it ships over SSAH and the device reboots and comes back with the new code. So that's a minute loop, maybe, 45 second loop from end-in-end?

Yeah, it depends on your image size, depends on your boot times. But it's a pretty quick loop for embedded. But what I've found most compelling about this whole setup, like I've set up Raspberry Pi's with Raspberry PiOS, and then I follow this tutorial to install this thing, and I set up the camera using this tutorial, and then I set up OpenCV and some ML thing with this tutorial. And it's like, oh, I have it all working.

Okay, let's make a copy of this image because I could never, ever get to the state again without retracing all the steps because it's not reproducible in that way. It's an entire desktop OS. And the next time you would install it, it would be different. But if you build a NERVS project,

you have locked dependencies. So it's like, it's this version of Nerves, this particular system that you're using for the Raspberry Pi so you're always getting the same Linux kernel yada yada yada it's all deterministic

and next time you pick up your nerves product the only thing that can break sort of your build for that is either if there's something weird about the build tooling that has happened in between

like oh your macOS has a hard time building your Erlang version or something but that's very rare but it can't happen But if you can build it, you have your old working thing and you can just chip it. I talked to one of the NERVs core team members and he's like, yeah, I just realized I haven't updated this thing in a while.

It's still, it's like on a eight-year-old version of nerves and elixir. Still running fine. It's doing everything it's supposed to be doing. I should probably update it, but I don't have to. That's cool. Yeah. It would probably still build. He might have to jump through some hoops to get the older build to work. It would be fine on Linux, I expect. But yeah. You got a podcast about this, you said. You got a newsletter. You get your own blog. We have all those things in the show notes, of course. But rattle off a couple of URLs and we'll call this show done. Yeah. So for podcast listeners, BeamRadio, so beamrad.com. That is where we talk about the beam, Alexa, Erlang, gleam. the new hotness in the beam ecosystem. Then there's undrijoub.io, which is my website and blog.

I actually plan to write something about this whole home assistant setup I've been doing and just sort of run through a basic tutorial of what I've done so that people can reproduce it because I think it'll be interesting to a subset of people out there. and there's a YouTube channel you can find it from my website and otherwise nurseproject.org and if you want to do

over-the-air updates for very serious usage or for hobbyist usage it's free for hobbyist usage and you can try it for free if you're a commercial user but nurseclad.com is what we're trying to

make happen I suppose it's active people are using it we have production customers so happy to talk over the air updates and actually that extends to wider than just nerves we are looking to support more

so if you want to update Android devices or Yachto devices or like there's so much out there it's a funny world embedded is incredibly fractured there are no standards it's like the the Linux desktop popping but weirder

All things embedded. Love it. Always great to catch up. Yeah. It's been a while. It's been a long time. Because you can't help it. And stay even cool as a person.

There you go. All right. Bye, friends. Bye, Losh. Bye, friends. Bye, now. Can you believe November's all but over? That means we are just a few weeks away from our eighth annual state of the log episode,

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