The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - Very important agents (Friends)

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

Nick Nisi joins us to dig into the latest trends from this year and how they're impacting his day-to-day coding and Vision Pro wearing. Anthropic's acquisition of Bun, the evolving JavaScript and AI landscape, GitHub's challenges and the Amp/Sourcegraph split. We dive into AI development practices, context management, voice assistants, Home Assistant OS and home automation, the state of the AI browser war, and we close with a prediction from Nick.

Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, your weekly talk show about coding with agents. A big thank you to our friends and our partners over at fly.io, the home of changelog.com and maybe you're home too. Learn more at fly.io. Okay, let's talk. Well, friends, agentic Postgres is here, and it's from our friends over at Tiger Data. This is the very first database built for agents and is built to let you build faster.

You know, a fun side note is 80% of Claude was built with AI. Over a year ago, 25% of Google's code was AI generated. It's safe to say that now it's probably close to 100%. Most people I talk to, most developers I talk to right now, almost all their code is being generated. That's a different world. Here's the deal. Agents are the new developers. They don't click. They don't scroll. They call. They retrieve. They parallelize. They plug in your infrastructure to places you need to perform, but your database is probably still thinking about humans only because that's kind of where Postgres is at. Tacker Data's philosophy is that when your agents need to spin up sandboxes,

migrations query huge volumes of vector and text data well normal Postgres it might choke and so they fix that here's where we're at right now agentic postgres delivers these three big leaps native search and retrieval instant zero copy forks and mcp server plus your cly plus a cool free tier now if this is intriguing at all head over to tiger data dot com install the cly just three commands spin up an agentic postgres service and let your agents work at the speed they expect, not the speed of the old way. The new way, a Gentile Postgres, it's built for agents, is designed to elevate your developer experience

and build the next big thing. Again, go to tigerdata.com to learn more. We can listen to ChangeLoggin' Friends that I'm sharing people you know, change logging friends. your favorite ever show well vim was backwards he can't have that oh my goodness got to represent new ang it was miv you know my my uh daughter's friend uh apparently was telling her class that um my license

plate stands for very important man oh which i felt super embarrassed about how lame would that be if that was actually what you my dad's a very important man and he thinks he is, therefore he got himself a license plate that tells you that. Oh, that would be the worst. Well, that's hilarious. Well, that's when you leave the kids to figure stuff out on their own, you know. They're going to just, they're going to figure out what that acronym stands for. I weep for the youth.

Isn't that the case of every older generation that at some point they weep for the youth? Yes. Right? I never thought I would be there, but I concur. There's a lot of crying. We're just doing a lot of crying. So much crying. And complaining.

Where was it last week? I just had to get my complaints out. I just like, hold on, guys, let me complain about something and then we can move on. I can figure what it was. But I don't know. It was the way of the world. And it's just like, why, why are we like this? Why do we have to complain about the way things are?

Just accept, embrace, and extinguish or something like that. Something like that. Yeah, enjoy. Enjoy. Except, embrace, enjoy. Yeah, you might as well. That's where I'm at. Like, well, what choice do you have, right?

just heaven ha that's all we can do can't change anything you know i'm more concerned about this this new this new look nick is rocking not just the shirt and being a very important man but you like that something more fluffy on top there instagram is how i get my style instagram sold you that t-shirt it did i mean some ad on instagram right it keeps zooming in on me but let's see if it'll zoom in on pierce it's him holding a n64 controller playing golden eye ah that's sick that's dope man they they pegged you demographically and got you to buy that that was one of the best games of all times you know like modern modern for us in our era back in the day for many or not in the day at all for most back in the day for us not back in the day for many yeah speaking of since we're just like picking apart my appearance does my face look extra flushed like us like were you santa recently nick i was not like your your appearance is It's very Santa-like, and it is December. What is this, uh, roseola you got going?

Oh, well, that is from my new favorite thing in the world, which you're not going to believe. All it cost me was my dignity. And that's, I'm excited. What, what, what? I, before coming home to record this fantastic show with y'all, I was at a coffee shop. Where in my vision pro working? At a coffee shop. At a coffee shop.

You're that guy. I'm that guy and proud to be it. You're the VIM. You're the very morton man with this very important Vision Pro on his face. Now, Jared, had I known this information prior to the invitation, I would have considered rescinding. Just rescind that. I mean, we could do it right now. Oh, no. Just like a five-minute episode. All right, y'all, this is the show. That's it.

Sorry, guys. Nick dropped the ball. We can't hang out with this guy. So who gave you this idea and why did you follow it? I've been doing a lot of travel, which I've been spending a lot of time on airplanes. and like trying to get worked on you know my flight to i've been flying mostly to san francisco and i've been flying united and for some reason the omaha to san francisco direct flight for some reason has free star link which is amazing so i can literally like stream tv shows

and have fast internet i could take zoom calls but i'm not that guy not yet you're not i don't know you have to reconsider might as well right is well is there's zoom division pro maybe there is There is. And when you connect with that, you connect with your avatar. So they just see like a weird 3D representation of me, which is amazing. Is that what we're looking at right now? Or are we getting? No, this is really me.

This is really you. Did you get the Rayban glasses yet? I have a pair. I used to work it, but not the ones with the glasses. Were you a glass hole? I can't remember if you were a glass hole or not. I was this close. Oh, okay.

Now we know where he draws a line. Or at least you used to draw it. He's an edger, man. He's on the edge. He is. you have all the cool new toys so when did you get this vision pro this is news to us yeah i got it uh pretty much the day it came out the day it came out i was in san francisco and i walked over to the union square apple store and they didn't have one the new one this is

the new one yes the i mean the new one as in it has an m5 and literally nothing else right like they re-released the same thing with an update show i know i know i know i'm a sucker did they the price, too? Sure didn't. Sure didn't. This is Apple we're talking about. They never reduced prices. They bumped it a little bit, too.

They probably did. Did they? I mean, I shouldn't say this. But when you're spending that much, and they didn't have it in stock, the one that I wanted, but they had the terabyte model, which was only, like, a small percentage of the total cost more to upgrade. I just got that. How much of the small percentage was it?

Can you be specific? I don't know exactly. I got the one terabyte model. You didn't wait in line, did you? You weren't waiting in line outside the, okay, because I just got a great visual of you, downtown San Francisco, waiting in line with someone else,

just wait, you know, they're waiting for like a crack hit or something, and you're waiting for your Vision Pro. They had their rap hat jackets on. Nick and, you know, some miscreants out there. Okay, so you didn't have to wait in line.

Drop a ding there, Jason. Drop a ding there. That was a Silicon Valley reference. Nobody gets it. I didn't hear what you said. I totally missed it. They had their rat pat jackets on. In the line, you know, when he's,

Dinesh was walking around with his rat, his rat pack jacket. Yep. It's very colorful. Jared Dunn from the show made them. And they were just a version of hideous. Flamboyant. I don't know if I would call it flamboyant.

Definitely like a version of a peacock, but like a poor version of it. It's like a varsity jacket gone wrong. Oh, cool. Yeah, it's kind of cool, actually. Something that you'd imagine, Nick, wearing. I'm telling you, if I had one, I would wear it right now. It's cool.

I see you have it playing in the background right next to your Cloudflare memorabilia. Yeah, it's a little bit back there. Where are they at? Oh, there's... You must have fixed your arch, by the way. Last show, Nick, Adam couldn't run his television because it had arch as its base out west. He couldn't even get it to boot last week. I could get it to boot.

It just had issues, and I didn't feel like dealing with it. It had one too many dims. Now, I do have a friend who works at MD, and he said, hey, share with me your build specs, and I will see what I can do. And I said, well, this is a customer support. I just want to know why the AM5 controller has such issues with four dims. Wait, so you're running Linux right now? I can't talk about that. Yeah, back there I am.

Can't talk about that. Always, man. It is officially the year of Linux desktop for me, man. Are you running Linux or is Linux running you? That's the question. You know, well, if I would have known this, I would have rescinded my acceptance. Your acceptance. For the cool fact, I'm a very important man here, okay?

That's right. I'm the Vim. Well, Nick, I thought maybe your face was all flush because of this news that just came out this afternoon. Oh, gosh. What's the news? Well, I've got some news. I'm not sure if my news, Nick, you've heard some other news maybe. I'm going to rip up, what is it called?

Paper Rock scissors. No, I think we should count down from three and say the news at the same time. All right. Okay. Three, two, one. Bun is being by Anthropic. Yes. Oh, you didn't say it.

You're waiting for me. I said bun. I didn't know if you were going to say Anthropic or Bun, so I was trying to match. I know. That was good. So Anthropic, the corporation behind such products as Claude and Claude Code. I'm not sure what else they got going for them. Claude for Chrome.

Okay. We might talk about that later. That'll come up later for sure. I think they use Bun. I think Claude is, like, written in Bunn style JavaScript stuff. I guess is there a Bunn style? I'm far enough away from Bun at this point. I've interviewed Jared a couple times, but it's been a few years that I can't remember how different it is from Node.

Is it node compatible? I think so. Okay. So it's like take your node code and run it faster with some other stuff they added over. Anyways, I'm flaunt my ignorance here. But I'm pretty sure that. Claude code is written in Bunn and then Anthropic because they're flush with all this investor money, I assume, like raising billions and billions of dollars. And they're like, eh, we're going to buy Bunn.

And Bun said yes, which I think is what I would say if I was running Bun, wouldn't you guys? I mean, they're probably getting a bunch of money. That's a bunch of baloney. That sounds Buntas. fantastic. I don't know what to think. Oh, why not? I mean, it's exciting, right? But what, what do they need to do to bun that they couldn't do as like this more open thing or like independent thing? What does anthropic need bun to do or to do to bun as you said it? If I was a diehard bunner, what like is this good news for me or is this bad news? Because Anthropic, preference on whatever direction they need to take bun into is now where it's going. And so does that mean I am left out because maybe it's not the direction that I'm also hoping my product will go with

bun? Or do I now have like special treatment? Because now like Anthropic or Claude will inherently know everything about Bun and know how to perfectly write code for Bun applications as just a side effect. Or was Bun ink or whatever they call it oven? I can't remember what they call they got good puns over there were they on their last you know a couple of months of payroll and they didn't find a way of monetizing and anthropic is like we want this thing to continue it's open source and mity license so the project would continue to exist but not at the pace of progress that a full-time team can put behind it and maybe it's one of these bailout situations where it's like let's aqua hire because jared sumner and his team obviously very talented

engineers, built something that's quite useful and good, and has helped push the industry forward in the JavaScript server-side world, let's use some of this extra cash that we're sitting on because they've raised so much money. Now, that being said, they're also burning through a lot of it with GPU purchases, with rentals, with data center buildouts. They're doing all kinds of stuff, Anthropic. and we don't know if they're actually making money per token at this point. Somebody probably knows, but I don't know.

Are they still, you know, losing money every time somebody does an inference? I know they're losing it on you, Nick. I know they're subsidizing your account. Oh, I don't know. I think I'm subsidizing everyone else. Or not. I don't know. That's something that's anthropic as private.

So they and their investors know that answer at this point. but if they are flush with cash they certainly have cash on hand and they're probably looking for ways to spend it seems like a not expensive in there i mean expensive for us to buy but not expensive for anthropic to buy proposition but i definitely get your hesitation like where might it go from here you never know if the ai industry is a bubble and the bubble bursts you know is anthropic more sustainable than bun is I don't know. They seem like they are. They certainly seem like you're on stable ground. But time will tell. Yeah. It's exciting, I think.

It's a win for JavaScript overall. I think that Bun and Dino are serving their purpose of moving node forward. And maybe this is just like giving the torch back to node a little bit on that because they've made a lot of great progress. Yeah. I think in the more recent versions, like, there's not a feature of Bun that I'm like I can't I feel like I don't get in Node maybe maybe I just don't know I don't pay attention to Bun too much but like that's you know you can compile you can run job run TypeScript like without compiling which is great you can compile binaries you can ESM still sucks but like everything else seems good there's like a what is it SQ Lite library? like built in now or coming at least that's cool got to have a built in man does uh does it get it to a single binary is it always a full-flesh full feature web app as are binaries can you can you compile

to a binary you can i think that it's like like bundling up you know you're the js run time and all of the node modules into some kind of binary that can run without you having to have node installed but yeah in that case you'd want that sq light built in because you don't want to have to have reliance on anything else in the system. I'm sure you can ship a binary, but if you have to rely on SQ light being installed, then that's not cool. Yeah.

Sure. Yeah, I don't think they're all in one binaries are anywhere near as efficient as like goes, for instance. Like they're going to be quite large. And I think Dinos is the same way where it's like, it's a large binary, even if it's a small program.

Now it's a large program, who cares? Mm-hmm. But if you want to like, you know, roll out a three megabyte. compiled thing you're not going to get that without some fancy footwork from bun and i don't think from dino either but the convenience is certainly there yeah which is really most of it at this point i mean we're all very rich when it comes to hard drive space and bandwidth for sure you know earlier

this year i was at um squiggle comp that our friends uh josh kohlberg and demetri metropolis run and there was a speaker there all over bedhurst I think he was at, they were at Firefox before that, before what they're doing now, which is building a version of JavaScript that can compile to a straight binary without having to have that wrapper. Really? I like, when they were telling me about it, I was like really excited. I'm like, oh, this is like where, you know, imagine that being built into Claude, like, Cloud desktop or Cloud, like, Chad GPT. And like, you just being able to like have that runtime that just can immediately and

super quickly run whatever it's thinking and like it can validate the code that it's giving back to you like on the fly because it did it all like right there in the browser this feels like maybe a move towards that be honest i didn't read the blog post i saw the i saw the tweet that's all sure well the blog post at least from bun's side is very straightforward well written Jared Sumner-Pendant, and he does say what doesn't change is that Bunn stays open source and MIT license, so that's great. It continues to be extremely actively maintained. The same team still works on Bun. Bunn is still built in the public on GitHub.

And then it says Bunn's roadmap will continue to focus on high-performance JavaScript tooling, node compatibility, and replacing node as the default server-side runtime for JavaScript. What does change is we will help make coding tools like CloudCode, and Claude Agent SDK faster and smaller. So there you go. We get a closer first look at what's around the corner for AI coding tools and make Bunn better for it. And Bun will ship faster.

Okay. So that's from his perspective today. Now, we've read a lot of these acquisition posts where the first thing they say is nothing is changing. And it's like nothing was going to change for GitHub either when Microsoft acquired GitHub. But here we are five years later. It has changed quite a bit, hasn't it? Wait, GitHub still exists?

It's not just co-pilot. Dang. Well, there's another story going on today, which is not today, but it's started a little while back and continues, which is that people are starting to move off GitHub now. Where's it going? Codeberg, which is a GitHub alike, run by a nonprofit in the European Union. and I'm not sure all the intricacies there except that they are seemingly, and this is, I don't want to make this sound bad, but maybe it will. They're seemingly only interesting insofar as they're a GitHub alike,

does a nonprofit, and run from the European Union. I don't see anything with their technology that looks like it's new or attractive. Like they're not going to disrupt because of that, because of technology. They're going to disrupt because GitHub is broken windows situation over there at Microsoft and getting more and more bloated and shoving co-pilot in our face, everywhere we turn and people are getting sick of it. And so here's a different place to land. And so Zig has moved off GitHub to Codeburg.

There's a few other that are doing that as well. Some of it is ideological, social concerns, and then the others is just like JavaScript, script bloat and GitHub action is not working as it's supposed to and just complaints about the platform as a platform. Basically, Microsoft has been ignoring the core product, which we've all felt in various ways. This looks exactly like GitHub in a lot of ways. It does.

It's like basically like, let's do GitHub, but somewhere else. The UX of username repo is locked in. There's so much that's locked. I was just telling you this, too, Jerry, like recently. I can't imagine. in a world where Git isn't it the thing we use, although JJ is really coming for

you know, gets good stuff, I suppose. And I guess GitHub, like it stamped itself as the gold standard of the U.X, not so much the platform itself, but the U.S. of username repo, even pull requests, even releases, all these things that's

sort of like nailed down, even you know, down to actions and stuff like that. Like it's, it's a itself as the primary user experience to follow, it doesn't surprise me. What do you go? You go here. You got code. You got issues. You got releases. You got activity. Pull requests, not merge requests or whatever. That GitLab calls on merge requests. To this day, merge requests. Like, no, you lost that. We're not going to call that GitLab. You can work as hard as you want. I can't believe they've gone this far with merge requests. You know how far Leo Lipport went calling

podcasts, netcasts? Yeah. I mean, it took him a decade to finally give up on it. He's still doing it. No, he doesn't do it anymore. No, he's not doing. I actually listened to Mac Break Weekly last week, and I remember distinctly hearing podcasts you love from people you trust. And I'm like, he finally gave it up. He finally gave up netcasts. He just wasn't going to call it podcasts.

This is Twit. He's been highly successful, but he did not have enough clout to change people to call them netcasts. And GitLab did not have enough clout to get us to call them merge requests. It just not going to happen. It was an uphill battle the whole way, the whole way. Do you all call them pods? Are you under that? Sometimes, yeah.

Well, not usually plurally, but individually, like the pod or on it. Let's do a pod. Okay. Yeah. I was in a meeting before this incident. I got to go. I got a pod. Nice.

So do you hate that term? I did. I did. Until I realized you guys say it. Now I'm going to back off. No, no, no, no. I've come around to it. But I can't remember where I first started hearing it.

Yeah. I definitely resist it at first. I resist lots of stuff. And eventually, I'm like, yeah, it is shorter. So I was like, pod, it's, you know, it's a podcast, come on. Is the pod the important part of the cast? I guess we've all decided the pod is what it is. Nobody even realizes probably anymore that that's from like iPod, right? Probably not. Yeah, the connection is lost. Yeah.

Oh. Yeah. Wow, right though? I mean, like, that's the thing, too. You have to appreciate the small beginnings. And the iPod was not a necessarily a small beginning, but the idea that podcast began in a place that didn't exist when, he was, when Steve Jobs was saying, you know, a thousand songs in your pocket, what was the number, like 10,000? I think a thousand was the one.

Was it a thousand? That was the first one, yeah. In your pocket. And that's what started off the opportunity for a podcast to be a thing, which was independent, distributed audio via NP3 on a device that became super popular. That's the. Oh, and it was painful back in the day because I was an early, early adopter. And it was not easy to get your actual MP3 files onto your iPod. Because you had to go into iTunes.

You subscribed in iTunes. What's iTunes? Exactly. It doesn't exist anymore. Apple Podcast now, but it was called iTunes back then, also Apple Music. Yeah. And then you had to actually sync it to your iPod before you leave the house. And then you were sitting with you.

And there was no, no third party podcast players. And Apple didn't really have one. It was just built into iTunes. Yeah. It was awful. Yeah, it was just the basic audio player. That's how bad we needed information. back then. There was no TikTok. There was no, there was LinkedIn, probably, but it wasn't

the length than it is today. I don't think so. There was certainly no Twitter X. There's certainly no Mazidon. We're talking like 2005. What year was this? 2004, I want to say. It was the beginning of podcast, around 2003, 2004. Probably wasn't until 2008, 2009 that I started becoming a heavy podcast listener. Yeah. I could be wrong on the numbers. I think I'd say 2004 is my, I'm phoning a friend right now so we'll get some some facts here funny a friend but yeah humble beginnings man uh an ipod started off podcasting which we call pods now we're on a pod there you go oh wow i'm gonna go ahead and get do a mea culpa on this one linkedin's longer than i thought it was holy cow you were right adam

lincoln actually started it in may of 2003 yeah oh three wow it's been around for a while And then Facebook start. I'm like user number 23, Jared, on LinkedIn, okay? You should have like 6 million followers over there. Facebook was 2004, 2005. Because I graduated high school in 2005, and I was touring my college, and they brought us to a computer lab and had a sign up for Facebook. We have Facebook here.

Yeah, I thought it was just part of, like, what the school did. I didn't know that it was this thing. Like the blackboard software? We also had Facebook. You are going to sign up right here. That's how it was. Everybody signed up. February.

2004 was Facebook and podcasting was 2003 for the tech and 2004 for the term. The term was coined in 2004 by journalist Ben Hammersley, who combined iPod with broadcast. So what I just learned is LinkedIn is ancient, man. That thing is ancient. It is ancient. It's gone through some iterations too. I mean, like it's largely been a version of what it is, but now they have the timeline and, you know, a lot of things happening there. Their timeline is the worst one there is.

is, isn't it? Yeah. There's a setting if you didn't know this, that you can do chronological. So you don't have to worry about them, like, shoving it down your throat with like... I think it reverts, though. I've tried to set it before. And I'm like a couple weeks later, it's back to whatever it's called. Algorithmically. Yeah. The 4-U style. You know what's funny

is almost every time I log into LinkedIn, the first post that it shows me is somebody, it might be the same person, but it's somebody posting the AOC Tax the Rich dress. Remember when she wore that She wore that dress, that white dress to some red carpet. And it said Tax the Rich on the back.

And somebody's using that to make some sort of business point. Like, I don't even have to click into it. I don't care. But for some reason, at least once or twice a week, when I log in LinkedIn, I see AOC under Tax the Rich. And it's like been like that for months. Really? So it's either stuck in a loop or that thing's super popular. I think it's like maybe a key to go viral over there.

I'm cleared cookies, man. and I should log out. Well, friends, I don't know about you, but something bothers me about getting up actions. I love the fact that it's there. I love the fact that it's so ubiquitous. I love the fact that agents that do my coding for me believe that my CI, CD work flow begins with drafting toml files for get-up actions that's great it's all great until yes until your builds start moving like molasses get-up actions is slow it's just the way it is that's how it works

i'm sorry but i'm not sorry because our friends at namespace they fix that yes we use namespace dot so to do all of our builds so much faster namespace is like get-ab actions but faster i'm like way faster it caches everything smartly it cashes your dependencies your docker layers your build artifacts so your CI can run super fast you get shorter feedback loops have your developers because we love our time and you get fewer i'll be back after this coffee and my build finishes so that's that's not cool the best part is it's drop in it works right alongside your existing getup actions with almost zero config it's a one line change so you can speak up your builds, you can delight your team, and you can finally stop pretending that build time is

focus time. It's not. Learn more. Go to namespace.com. That's namespace.com. So, just like it sounds, like it said. Go there, check them out. We use them. We love them. And you should too. Namspace. Dot SEO. I'm surprised by Codeberg. Honestly, I've heard of this. I didn't give it much attention. And so you're saying that Git recently moved? No, I'm saying Zig, the Zig programming language. Zig program. Okay, my bad. Not Git itself.

Yeah, my bad. Zig then. So Zig moved from GitHub to Codeberg. And what they said, Andrew Kelly, who's the founder, or founder, sorry, the creator of the programming language. I guess he also founded it, but different communities there. What he said is that the only thing, or what I read out of his post, is like the main thing that he's going to experience pain moving away from is GitHub sponsors.

Because that's how they have received a lot of their recurring donations. And I've allowed the programming language to flourish over the years. And so now they're moving off that and they're trying to find out how to get their donators to move with them without losing a bunch of money. And so that's what they're main concern. So there's your, there's your moat. GitHub is apparently sponsors, which also, they'll just completely ignore right yeah that's all i could do on that one man long sigh you know we've just i just don't even know i guess they need a head of product on it that just cares deeply and won't stop or leave and they just don't have that i think devon she had different uh ideas

who else was that we knew that worked there jessica but i can remember her last name lord she was there for a bit she came on the pod when she first joined github with that role i did say pod and then since then i'm not sure who's been in charge of it i don't think anyone's in charge of it i mean yeah they don't even have a ceo right like no they don't what's going on over there they're just they're part of the ai something ai core how can you be the epicenter of open source and it's one and not command the ship i don't get it i don't get it how can you be the epicenter of javascript like with github but also with typescripts with n p m yes with n pm and that was the one i was going to call out like right how are they not completely embarrassed by how much they've let mpm

languish it's terrible is is isaic still there or did he did he leave already i'm not sure if is he's still there no isn't he doing vault or whatever He was doing a vault, but he might have actually moved on from there. I don't know. He moves a lot. So he was going to come on the podcast. Yes, I said podcast. Just because I went that far back in history with Isaacs.

He was going to come on the podcast just before the acquisition and he wanted to talk, but couldn't because, you know, like, why do that when you got the save me money coming in, right? And then maybe even the fun job for a bit. I wonder if he's ready. Isaacs, are you ready? Let's do it. So when you say Isaac, you're referring to the creator of NPM. Yes. Just for everybody who's not, has been around as long as the rest of us have.

I have an old brain, and I've forgotten his full name in this moment. So I'm also just trying to use his known in my brain connection. What is this full name? Isaac Sluder. Isaac Sluder. There you go. Thank you. I knew I'd have it.

I'm an old man who is a dot connected. Isaac Sluter. If you're ready, Isaac, we have microphones. We have a pod. go back to us. Yeah, how do you do that? How do you be GitHub and be in that position? I wonder if it's just the fact they got so many engineers.

Does that become a problem? Probably not right. You can move fast with more engineers. I think it comes down to leadership, right? You got to have leadership. You'd think they'd have some kind of release to show that NPM was still alive. But their lunches being eaten all around them, which is crazy. Like, I think Socket's doing a great job of,

Having almost a better UI for NPM than NPM, plus all of the security stuff, like, really excited about that. And then I'm really excited about the JSR project from the Dino folks. That's an exciting place to go. Which is a new registry, right? Yes, JS registry, I assume. So you have JSR, then you have Bun, which is NPM compatible, right? How do, who is the winner here? Like, who is the one on top that everybody is feeding off of?

No. Who's the leach and who's the leachers? No, it's the winner. I don't know. Anthropic might be the winner at this point. They've got Claude Code. Claude code's winning. Yes.

Yes. Yes. If you don't think that, you're wrong. Well, they've got the U.S. I mean, all right. I mean, Gemini 3 is really good. For the weekend before Claude Opus 4.5 came out. That's right.

Then again is like, back in, back in your place, there, Google. a lot of leapfrog when it comes to the frontier models for sure it wasn't just that like I was dedicated I was a dedicated sonnet 4.5 user uh before that and like specifically when you're paying the API rates you get you can have the option for a million token context window absolutely amazing I could work all day on the same project without ever clearing context and like I just never ran out you know it was so good and then I've never had that experience I just I reboot a lot. But I was spending a lot of money.

You can customize the status line in CloudCode. And one of the things you can put on there is just a running dollar amount of how much you're currently, this conversation is currently costing you or costing your company. I don't want to know that. I do. It's a leaderboard, man. You try to be in the trillion token club, aren't you? I one time posted a picture of it where I ran slash cost. And it was at $420.

and $17. And I just posted that screenshot in Slack and said, am I in trouble? Is that fixed on the $200 a month plan? Are you actually playing that amount? Because you've got API tokens. API tokens. Okay.

So there is no limit. We never get, I mean, there is a limit. And we hit it once. What is it? I don't know. Okay.

But it's, like, I don't know. They have different tiers of whatever. I don't luckily have to think about that. But I will say that Opus 4.5 is not only better than all of the other models I've used. It's so much cheaper. Like, so much.

It's crazy. I think Opus before that was like, it was $25 per million input tokens and $75 per million output tokens. Now it's 15 and 25, I think, respectively. Yeah, I guess I haven't paid as close attention as you have on that front, Nick. You're definitely the bleeding edge on this. You're edging. I mean, that's whatever. But like the, I also think, I don't know, my controversial take is like, open AI is over here making, making cool things.

Don't get me wrong. Like, their voice mode, having conversations with it. Like, that's the biggest competitor to podcast time in the car for me is just like talking to chat GPT, like with a voice conversation. Because I can lead the conversation wherever I want. And I can stop it and I can interrupt and go. in a different direction completely. We can be talking about code one time and then I can be asking it about the fourth dimension in the same conversation and just like, it's really fun.

So I've done a little bit of that and I honestly, I just run out of stuff to talk about. Yeah. Do you run out of stuff to talk about? Sometimes and you're like, I don't know, you catch yourself like you know that if you pause for too long, it's just going to start talking. So you have to like know what you're saying. Like it's a different dynamic. It's just smarter than I am.

You know, it's commanding this relationship too much. That's cool. And I think Sora is cool. Have you guys played with SORA? The original, not SORA 2. Like the TikTok. No, not the social network. You're on there, though, right?

I am. And I'm having fun just making. Does that integrate with your Vision Pro at all? I haven't tried it. Oh. Okay. Go ahead. Tell us what are you up to over there?

I just make, I put myself into classic movie scenes, which you have to be careful about because you can't like. Like risky business? Yeah, like that. Like, you know, we just did a, an. on site, like a company on site in San Francisco. And as part of that, like I was part of a group that went to Alcatraz. So of course, before I went, I watched The Rock so that I know what I'm looking at. And then I thought, what's the classic scene from the rock? And it's where Nick Cage has like the green smoke above him. That's right. He's on his knees. Yeah. So I did that. And we like,

during that, my company WorkOS, we had done this enterprise ready conf. And so I just like have me holding the green smoke on top of Alcatraz going Enterprise Readiness achieved. And it's like stupid stuff. Right now, I have a draft that I haven't posted, which is me as an elf on the shelf. And I'm mischievously running around the house, adding as any to your types, like, just doing silly stuff like that. That's pretty good, actually. Oh, gosh. I feel like you're like the slop master. This guy is just, you know, we're all concerned about too much slop and he's just out there sloping and stuff all over the place at him.

He's embracing the slop. He's not just embracing it. He's just spitting it out. He's wearing it. well i do expect to see you on tom cruz's body with the risky business slide in move by the end of the day done okay podcast art inserted now put that in the show notes yeah no really good stuff wow so this is soror too right because it's not just a thing it's like a social thing too is the social network like actually a thing it is sort of i don't know i don't look at

it but what do you do with your videos to show them to your kids uh i download them no i do not show them to my kids i made that mistake okay specifically do not show them to your kids i have a six year old and i i made a video of me crashing a motorcycle um and i sent it i was going to send it to my mom as like uh you know could i trick her into thinking i got a motorcycle or something which is really dumb because it has like professional camera angles of me falling off of this motorcycle, which is like anybody would know that, right? But I showed it to my my six-year-old, and he started crying because he didn't like to see me get hurt. And I'm like, oh, he can't tell that this isn't real. So I don't know. That's, that's done. His slop detector is not advanced

yet. Yes. Yes. That's sad. It got me thinking, like, you know, that's, that was a blind spot to me before, but now, like, got to be careful raising kids in this. Right. This is why they think you're a very important man they're like my dad's on all these movies but i do like the idea of that like it's it's like what you're saying you can't this is a battle you can't win right trying to say like oh we shouldn't have this like the toothpaste is out of the the tube now so it's there so i do think that it's a good idea that sora exists as this ticot like slider where you're not critiquing every video and being like is this ai Yes, every video on there is AI.

So you just get to have fun with it. Yeah. As opposed to like, you know, bringing those over to other ones like TikTok or Reels. That was my take last week telling Adam. It's cool that at least they're trying to hide it. Where I get offended is when they're trying to pass it off as real. And then I find out it's not. That's when I get offended.

But over there, it's like, this is all AI. So you see that on like Reels. Like there's people who like try. It puts like a SORA watermark that bounces around on there. People try to remove that. And you can like catch it pretty easily. Lime. Yeah, like, come on.

I saw some tweet that was like, you know, that thing is like the fat holding the fabric of society together, that little watermark. Oh, sure. I'll believe that. Yeah, to a certain extent. Yeah. The question is, when will the other models catch up, the ones that you can run on your commodity hardware and build these things akin to what opening I can do without the SORA watermark? you know at that point the fabric of society won't be held together quite so well right yeah it's getting close but the point i was trying to make with sorra and their conversation thing and all of that

is and then like there's there was i don't actually like look at the news but i saw some headline about sam altman pausing their ads push to focus more on making chat gpte better because their lunch is being eaten right alert he called yeah right alert i'll believe it for i'll believe that for sure uh but that's like my point like this you know they market themselves as like a six trillion dollar company or whatever and they're they're chasing ads they're chasing google and meta into ads they're making a social network like that's where aGI is going that's where they're focusing their time meanwhile anthropic is just eating the enterprise because clog code is just amazing and and then i don't know what google's doing but they're doing something nanobanana is

really nice and Gemini three but that was good for a weekend and like they're just being eaten and I think that Anthropic is like the I don't know the one to watch right now because Claude Code it's just so good it's a good interface. Yeah. I'm coming here to Shill Claude Code I guess. Well, I think you can't help it right. Like it is it has earned its right to be schlepped in this way to not be negative about it because it is it's the winner it's the daily driver for most people now

i do dabble we have friends over at augment code i like augy yeah we have friends over at source graph i like amp but those are consumers of anthropic so they're just derivatives really but they do some cool stuff didn't you guys see the news no source graph and amp have parted ways what they have split into two companies Yeah, it makes sense. Amp is its own company now, led by Quinn and Bian, Bion, and Sourcegraph is its own company now, led by somebody who I don't know their name, but they are now the CEO. And so it's two separate entities, two boards, but the same investors. So there's some, there's obviously crossover, but they've just decided to probably for investment reasons and stuff like that.

I don't know. You know, I was at an AI conference last week in New York, and the AMP booth was two away from our booth. And it was just AMP. But I think it did say by source graph, but had this cool AMP logo. I just held up the book because I met Steve Yegi and Gene Kim and got the vibe coding book. I got it signed by them, which is awesome. Yeah. Have they kept it up to date?

Because when they wrote that, it was like six months ago. Was it still true? I know, right? That's, I was excited to tell Steve Yegy that I was like, I was on this podcast shortly after him. And I was just singing his praises. on that. Oh, you were. You listened to it twice or something.

Yeah, yeah. Very exciting. And then I honestly didn't know that Gene Kim also co-wrote this book. And I didn't know at the time that he wrote the Phoenix Project, which is an amazing book. So that's cool. Everyone should read the Phoenix Project for sure. But like I've been going to a lot of AI events in San Francisco and other places. And one thing that I had noticed that I thought AMP was just like following the trend on was that they were AMP, not source graph.

Like, that's how they were marketing. And, like, at an event a couple months ago, it was VS code. It wasn't Microsoft. It was VS code was the sponsor. That was the logo. That was everything. No Microsoft naming at all. And I thought that was just like the way that they were, they're going.

But that's interesting. I didn't know that they parted ways. Yeah, they just announced it today. So that's a bleeding news, man. Bleding edge news. That's right. December 2nd, 2025. You already here first.

At least I did. I didn't catch that news yet. Yeah, man. Wow. good for them i think that's smart i mean i think that amp was really pushing i mean it's my favorite i just can't afford it it's it's my favorite to use it seems to be expensive no matter how i hold it so uh and uh yeah i just wish i was a little bit more richer was i was a little bit taller wish i was a baller there you know uh because then i can hold my amp all day long and i would

love it i do think so i think amp is phenomenal even though it's using the c mals that It's phenomenal at planning. It's also phenomenal execution, but it's phenomenal planning. Like, I trust it's planned so much. Consulting the Oracle is just a delight. You know, like, I just like saying, you know, this is great. We've been planning this thing, but can you talk to the Oracle about this? Because, like, that's who really is going to bless this, right?

They stamp it. Oracle's blessed it, you know? But anyways, the Oracle is cool. Like, their thoughtfulness around the language I use around it is just cool. The handoff, you know, for those of us who have to live under the context window is just phenomenal. The handoff option, you push Control O, and you can hand off once you get close to sort of like context completion or I guess context filling, whatever you want to call that. And hand off the prompt and it references the old thread for context, but gets a new fresh context window. I think that's the much better than Claude Cod Codes way, which is like basically your mid something is like,

no more for you just stop right there and wait for the context when it to come back the pro move is like you come to a natural stopping point and compact before moving on so you control that more yeah i mean you might have a bigger window than i got because that's basically impossible to pro move that one i think that's like a chef's kiss moment a delight so find a four-leaf clover it just doesn't happen too often you can run slash context in cloud code and it will give you a little graph of how much context you're using. And if I just spin up Claude and run slash

context without giving it anything, I'm at 112,000 tokens. Which is you need to trim up that Claude MD. It's that. It's the MCP file, like MCP tools loading in. How many

tools are you using? Not that many. It's like, yeah. Not you are. MCP is hungry. It is. And, but that's also an anthropic thing that is open, right? They They did that. I think the skills are where it's at right now, at least. I think that the MCP is on its way out.

And skills or something like it is on its way in because it's just a better way or some kind of tool discovery. Do you have any skills? I do. I have a whole marketplace. You can get the Nick Neesey official marketplace. I'm just neat. Now we know why he's here. You're going to show his marketplace.

Okay. Let's hear that marketplace skills. Oh, like, they just have this. You can create a Git repo and you put like a Marketplace. JSON in it and it can then, and then you can just say like plug in ad marketplace, uh, whatever Nick Neesey slash Claude plugins, I think is mine. And then you can like install all of these plugins from me that are like agents or commands or whatever. And it's just a way for me to like move them out of my dot files and into a way that you can pick and choose which ones that you actually want.

Yeah. What are some of the skills you may find there? Yeah. Do you have any Nunchuck skills? and he's going to go hunting skills. I've been talking a lot with Chris bone skull, bone skull, Hiller. I almost said bone skill,

because he's, bone skills. That'd be a good rebrand. We've been going back and forth on this because he's, he's digging really into this as well. Is he digging into this? Oh, yeah. Okay.

And the, like, one that's really good is, I have a code simplifier one that, like, after we get something working, this just goes through and it tries to like, in a way, deslopify the code.

So it's going to remove the comments that no human would actually write. It's going to simplify things. It's going to look for things. But it's going to do it like around the vision that it shouldn't break the things that work right now. It should just clean the code up. Right. And so that's like a great thing to run. So I just told my claw to do that at times.

But does your skill have like details about how you want that to happen? Is that what the skill is in? there? Yeah. Instead of just saying, like, hey, do a pass and just clean everything up. Like, it actually has details. Okay. And how do you trigger that then?

I just, it's set up as an agent, a subagent, so it'll, like, kick off its own context window and go. So I just say, ask agent code simplifier to simplify this code or something like that. Can you give it a cooler name in that? Like, why are you going to call it agent code simplifier? Can you like agent X or something, you know? Well, because it's in my, my marketplace now, it's like at Nick Necy colon and essential slash, I don't know, like, yeah, it's a whole thing now.

But you could call it whatever you want. You could take it and copy it and call it whatever you want. That's a cool one. I also made one that is a, it's like a consultant because like I also want to experiment with these other models and figure out what's going on. And so I made a consultant that can. do three different things, depending on how you ask it. The first one is, you can be like, ah, I don't know, you know, if Claude is like spinning its wheels on something or get stuck,

I can be like, eh, that doesn't sound right. Consult with Codex. And it will go spin off a subagent, call, open up Codex, CLI as an MCP server, and talk to it and ask it to weigh in. And then, and it can do that with Codex, um, perplexity, GROC, Gemini, and maybe it's just Claude. as like a separate sub-agent clock. It can do that. It can also do a deep research where it will ask all five of them to do deep research and then it will collate the answers together and give you a result. But then like building on top of that, it can also deliberate where it will ask them all

to do the research or to answer a question and it will get all five answers back. And then it will give all five answers to all five of them again and be like, Grock said this, Codex said that and have them like whittle down to an answer. answer and then it's like, oh, okay, based on what you want, like, Gemini's solution seems to be the best. Right. You need to get 12 of these set up and then ask them what you have for lunch, you know, and just go scorched earth on your entire life. Just like, how much energy can I use on simple mundane tasks? Like, five is not enough. Can I get 12? Lunch costs $1,000. The million dollar question, what should I have for lunch, you know?

Have we already talked about this? Because I've totally done that. Have you really? oh my gosh I'm what you might call a picky eater like in like so did you is that part of your context window then like Nick's menu choices I was at a lunch like or a dinner and it was at some like weird fusion restaurant that nothing looked decent and so like discreetly when nobody at the table was looking

I just kind of like snapped a picture of the whole menu and asked chat GPT I'm like I'm pretty plain what is like the safest possible thing I could eat on this menu. And it picked it out and it was great. That's not a bad use, actually. I thought you were asking the whole quorum, you know, that question. But just chat, JVT.

That's just one. That's just fine. Go for it. That's what they're there for, you know, those moments in life where you're like, I could just use somebody else to scan this for me and give me some advice here. Good use. Yeah. Good use.

Okay. So you're just clawed coding it up, man. Oh, yeah. I love it. All day. Now, how much of this is work? All of it. It's all work.

He's contractually obligated to say that. All of it. I'm currently a team of one. And so I make up for that by having a up to, I think I've had up to 14 cloud code instances running simultaneously. And I use T-Mux to manage it all. I built like a little T-Mux floating window dashboard that I can pop up. it shows me like, you know, this project is waiting on a response for me. This project's done. And like it shows me the clod status of each one. Do you ever feel like your babysitting?

Yes. Constantly. Constantly. I bet. It's also the worst when I'm like, when I'm digging into a problem that I don't really know like a lot about like it might be in some weird language that I don't have a lot of context about. And I'm working with someone else. And they also, I don't know if you've been in the situation yet, but it's like me and another human are having a conversation. But there's a long pause between each one because we're both checking with our AIs before responding to each other. And then our AIs will like contradict each other, but we're the like the middle persons between it. And it's it just makes me hate this profession that when I'm doing that you should just connect the two AIs and get out of the way, you know. Yeah.

You're the A API between them. What does a team of one do like you do for work OS? What kind of things are you working on? I work on all of the. the SDKs across all of the languages and frameworks. And so it's all open source, which is great. I have no qualms about pasting any code whatsoever into any of these models because it's all in GitHub anyway. Yeah, no privacy concerns there.

What's your mission with the SDKs, improve them, growth? Survive is mostly. No, no. It feels like that sometimes because a lot of work comes in and I'm just like, you know, jumping from, I'll be like doing something in this project and then jumping over to go. and jumping back into TANStack Start is like fun, but also not fun right now. Just because it's new. You know, it's got bugs.

And it's the RC, so I'm like trying to keep up with what they're doing. And it's it's a time sync. But yeah, just, you know, keeping things up to date, adding new features, supporting new, new like frameworks or or even new like integrations. we just like did like a thing with convex so like you can spin up a new convex project and use workOS off as the off provider for it and it'll like create a workOS account in the background and then when you're ready you can take that over but that's pretty cool innovation that we just did So there's only one of you, and there's only so many hours in the day, and really only so much focus to go around. So my question to you is, what if you had a teammate who could work just like you, with all the context you have, but a little faster? That's what Notion's new AI agent feels like.

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just turn our sites now on the new browser wars there's a brand new browser war according to people in the know such as the verge writing about browser wars. And they're trying to agent our browsers now. Nick, are you agentically browsing? No. I've not for lack of trying.

Okay. There's just no, there's no good browser anymore. All of the browsers suck, top to bottom. Really? Hot take. Yeah, every single browser. Even Safari. I'm currently using Safari as my daily driver. But yes, it's, it sucks.

because nothing works in it. Everything's like, you should install Chrome for this. Right. Yeah. Just a shame. Well, in my, on Fedora,

I've been using, oddly enough, Firefox. It's the default install. And it's super fast there. And I had clod right down like a better user.js file to like lock it down and keep me safe

and make it fast and all the good stuff. And it's just browsing. It's not a lot of work. So I feel like that's pretty cool. I've been pretty impressed, I would say. I didn't think I would keep using Firefox or the default browser, but I have. But then on Mac, obviously, it's, it's Safari. And I really haven't dabbled into as much as I want to.

I think it would be a letdown, really. I don't think I'm not sure I want to like browse the web and constantly have agentic AI summarizing things for me. Like I get the summaries, but there's a time and place for it. And I'm just not sure I know. need it in my browser on the daily i don't know when i thought about this conversation though in this in the browser wars is like how will the web change you know is the web changing around i in so far as that we're not really going to websites much anymore you know and which

kind of websites are we going to we're just going to like docs and like library landing pages or the latest framework landing page you know what kind of websites are actually useful to us is it shopping is it only shopping is it amazon is it only amazon is it only amazon I think about my own traffic and it's not it's weird traffic you know I'm not like going to a lot of websites anymore and it's strange okay this is actually a perfect segue into an experiment I tried knowing that we were going to talk about this I opened up chat GPT Atlas I have all of them on my on my machine right now I've got Atlas I've got perplexities comet I've got dia that piece of crap um that piece of crap I've got Chrome with Gemini built in and Claude for Chrome and the whole thing but I opened up

Chad GPT Atlas and it just so happened that the last time I used that I had opened up my Fathom analytics page for my website so when I opened it up it brought me right back to that which was interesting because I hadn't looked at that in a while and I noticed that like one of the referers was Claude.A.I and it was specifically to

a blog post I have about like you should try cod skills and I was like oh cool did they link to me and I was like trying to figure out how to get there and see like if I could find a page where I'm linked or something and I couldn't so then I just popped open the the sidebar in Atlas and said hey I see that they're a referer here find the page where this came from and it popped in and it's like yeah we'll help you with shopping and it had like like it was just so stupid. And it, of course, did not find anything. So I don't, I think it might have been like come up, you know, come up in a clawed answer or something like that. But it totally failed. And it jumped right into their, they're failing as like, you know, an actual AI provider.

They're just a way to sell you ads is the way that I felt as soon as it said shopping, shopping. Yeah. But to your, like your question there, like, where is this all going? I think. that this is this might be like a canary in the coal mine of of where this is heading in that everything sucks all the browsers suck right now and it's like when i think about other tools that are out there like like chat jpt's um whatever they call mcp um but like you know mcp tools and there's an mcp ui project that like will take it's a tool that will render a ui for you uh in your your window. So like you can you can have a chat and like the perfect example I have is like you're talking to chat, JVT and like you tell it to find you an apartment in San Francisco with two bedrooms

within walking distance of wherever. And it will and under this budget. And it like loads like a Zillow page in there, a Zillow map and you can move around the map right in your chat window. You didn't go to Zillow.com. It's like loading that and helping you find it right in the chat there. And then you can have a contextual conversation around that. I feel like that's where things. could be going and like the browsers just not figuring out like where they belong in this is indicative of that being the future maybe the future really is just like a chat like interface for everything yeah what a shame that would not yeah right well so the example was this morning as i we were on a call with our friends that practically i and one of the questions we wanted

to find out was like just like what other AI specific podcasts are out there just to see where this show comes up on the map. And, you know, I guess am I okay with this just being a list? I didn't go to any of the sites. I didn't go and check them. And I'm not doing research either. So I don't feel bad about it, but I got my glimpse, you know, of what the web is. And now this is like some weird artifact of what the web is.

I didn't go to the websites. I didn't go to the podcast clients. Now down at the bottom, it does say, oddly, this is chat, GPT, make a playlist, connect Spotify. Why? Like, why? Because I, because I had the search about a podcast. They want to make a playlist about pot? No. I just, I don't know. It seems reaching. Just do what you're trying to do. I don't know. I am worried about the web, though. Like, what is the web these days? I don't know. I will say, like, I 100% go. I use Raycast AI as my Google now. I just pop that up and just go to town asking it questions. I've been getting into Minecraft a lot with my son. And so I'm, like, asking about obscure Minecraft things. And it's so great, just like, in the middle of the game, I just pop up and be like, hey, where, how do I, you know, summon this thing? Or how do I do whatever. And like, it tells me right there.

I don't have to go to Google. I never go to Google. So you're doing command space and then tab to get there. That's your option space. Oh, you don't go command space? Command space opens regular raycast. Option space opens its AI chat window. Oh, I see.

I got that set to something else then. My bad. So you're going to go, you go to the Raycash chat app versus the one that just pops up as part of the, whatever you call that, the launcher, I suppose. I guess I could do it right there because it's just, you type in whatever and hit tab. Yeah, well, when you said like a Google,

I was thinking like a simple search interface and that's the launcher, right? Which you would get there by going command space and then tab, which gets you right into the ask prompt. Interesting. Yeah. You know, I kind of want AI. everywhere I'm at, at like an arm's length. Like, I don't want to be in a world, I suppose, as a technologist and a worker and a doer,

like I guess in my life, when I'm hanging out with friends, like phones over there, AI is not in the conversation. I'm not saying that. But like in areas we're trying to be effective and productive and thinking and researching and those kinds of scenarios, I do want an AI pretty close to me because I don't think of it like an atom replace or it's more like an atom. multiplier. How can I think bigger? How can I see more of the picture first so that I can apply my taste of the path I'm trying to go towards? Not so I can be told what to do.

You know, it's all about what is out there? What do I like? Where do my taste align? And I'm doing my Trump thing here. Gosh, I just realize I'm doing my, my Trump hands. Sometimes I do a Trump impersonation. I get my hands down. I am just doing my thing. And I got to have the eye near me. And I'm finding my stuff. And I'm making decisions. And, going along my way and just having it nearby. How about voice? Have either of you tapped into, I suppose you talked about how you talked to it on your car rise,

but like in the case, I think we're all still iPhone users. Nick, are you an iPhone user still yet? Absolutely. I just have a Vision Pro. I've got a Vision Pro. I just never know.

You're trading side so much, dabbling and everything. You may have gone to the dark side to Android. Who knows? But let's all assume the three people in this proverbial podcast, out of room here, use an iPhone. The one thing I think missing from my life is where I can say, hey, you know what. And in my case, it's Siri.

No, not right now. I want to talk to Siri about what can happen here or something like it, more so to maybe automate things around my life. I feel like that's the next human frontier that is just like simple. We should have that. It should be a thing. We should just have that, right? And it's not here yet.

And I'm wondering if there's a dark side to this. Is there a reason why these voice assistants aren't doing it yet? Maybe it will break the world. I don't know. What do you think? There's a podcast. I don't remember which one. What they were talking about this and about how, you know, somebody left iOS and went to Android or went to, not Android,

went to the very special Alexa. Sorry, if that triggers. But like, you know, the one that you can pay a bunch and then it can. And then it can, it's basically an agentic Alexa. And it would like, like at the end of the, it would do things and it would say that it was doing things correctly, but then it wouldn't actually do them all the time, 100% of the time. And it's because like the disconnect between understanding the conversation and translating that into actual actions around your house is still like a gap that is not quite solved.

It's where I think home assistant might be the frontier that like home assistant now is I was just doing some research on this because I was just from the Nerves conversation we had Jared with Lash Vickman coming out soon is, was really just around Embedded Linux. I'm really, obviously, I'm with Linux nerd, and I'm just dabbling as much as I can just for curiosity around Linux. And I think it's just cool, like what you can do with embedded Linux, what you can do with Nerves. And it came up to, I was like, okay, how can I do, I think it's called Root Project. What is it called root build? Root build so you can do like your own embedded Linux kernel kind of thing.

And I was like, well, what could you do around Route build and Home Assistant? Because that's where I have just natural curiosity. And now Home Assistant has their own flavor called Home Assistant OS, which is one of the preferred ways. They actually sell an appliance now.

So they're this open source project, Bohemoth, really, to automating home things. Everything's integrated into it. And now they have their own appliance which just has Home Assistant OS on it I think the frontier's like can you get something to talk to that well

and I haven't dabble so somebody has probably like I haven't already exists shut up let me come on your pod and I'll tell you but that's where I'm as like does Home Assistant is that the tie is that the connection for this next this next wave could be I think that the

the pieces are there and there's like the rumors I guess I forgot the Apple guy that that it always breaks rumors but the Gemini is going to power the next version of Siri which is super interesting and I hope so because Siri is so bad but the underpinnings are bad for her man

like it's like I asked you the day I was like are you sad Siri say why because they've just they've just not taken care of you you know I'm cool with it the head of AI just stepped down yesterday I think John G and Andrea

well I saw Google come in with Gemini. He's like, well, I'm out. Got your job. There was rumor that they were going to buy Anthropic or like integrate with Anthropic. I think integrating would be great. Buying, oh, that'd be the worst. Don't buy it, gosh. Yeah, please don't.

No. Let it do his own thing, okay? No acquisitions for that company. Be the leader, be the innovator. Drive it, drive it, go. But you know, the, what's there today, if you really look for it, is actually pretty powerful as I, as I'm slowly learning. Like there's the chat GPT underpinnings where you can like you can have it like relay your query that you give to Siri to chat GPT and it can sometimes do it.

I literally asked it to play a song in my car and it somehow like sent that to chat GPT and then chat GPT just came back and said, I can't play music. It was so, so bad. But the underpinnings are there. And if you've ever, have you ever played with the shortcuts app? Yeah. Just a little bit. Yeah. Just to know it exists.

there is a ton of power in there right now because specifically they have a bubble that you can drag in that is send this input to chat gpt here's a prompt get some output and do stuff with it and you can have triggers and the triggers can be like when a mail message comes in and so i just set one up to where whenever a mail message comes in from GitHub and it has a PR number or an issue number in the subject it takes that message, send it to chat jvety, summarizes it, gets the link out of it, and then it creates a new to-do, make sure that a to-do doesn't exist already, and sends it to Omnifocus to put it in my inbox so that I only have one inbox to check for those things. I'm questioning if you actually do any work for WorkOS at this point. I was just over here thinking, this is a really sophisticated code monkey. I mean, look at him, he's just taking PRs right out of the email, goes right in my to do list, just send it to me.

I'm going to put it right to my to do list. them to Claude code for web and Claude makes a PR. That's the next step of it is like, it won't even like put it in my to-do list. The to-do will be review the PR that Claude just put up for this issue. That could be something that you could do. And then you said Omni, was Omnifocus? Was that right? I thought that was a relic.

Are they not? I know they're there, but like I didn't think people still used it. I have tried so hard to leave. I have. Share your gel cell. What is it for like? I got Stockholm syndrome. I do.

It's so. bad. I'm trying to leave. Every single to-do app, they don't have this one feature that Omnifocus just has and has had forever. And that's this concept of defer dates. So I can put something in and put all of the flag it and do whatever, but say, I don't care about this until next Monday. And then it will

not show up in any of my automated list until it's ready until next Monday. So I can just like set it and forget it and be assured that it's going to resurface onto my radar when I can actually work on it because I'm not going to work on it today. And I do that with every single task. He's not working on anything today.

It's a really sophisticated way of avoiding work is what you're doing. M.G. Are you checking what he's doing, dude? Are you checking him, M.G.? Michael Greenwich, by the way. That's kind of wild. So I kind of want, I kind of want to, like,

just have a separate session not in this podcast where you just show me how you do your Omni-focused stuff. Like just like a Nick deep dive into like, could you do like an anonymized version so you can like show us your world but like not obviously show us your world? Is that possible? I can try for sure.

Or can you just show us your world and you're cool with it? Yeah. Sanitize your world first. Yeah. It's like 90% GitHub issue stuff, which is all public anyway. So yeah, you probably do that. I'm really curious about that because I've been a things user.

Yeah. I've been a to-doist user. And more so recently, a to-doist user only because I'm multi-platform now, not just Mac, and things is Mac only. And obviously, I love Mac, but I can't, there's things to do on wherever I'm at. Don't blame them for your mistakes. I don't know. So I guess in that case then, too, Omniew Focus would not be on Linux because Omnifocus is not Linux native. Are they?

They're not Linux native. They can't leave the garden. And you have to be inside the walled garden in order to enjoy the garden. You can't take the garden with you. They have Omnifocus for web, but you can't even like reliably scrape that because everything is like super encrypted. Well, anyways, okay. See, that's the thing too is is like Mac traps you, I guess. I'm not even saying this.

Like, I love this machine. I've got, I don't even count the amount of tabs I have open. And then there's a whole separate safari behind that. This got the same amount of tabs. And I've got. too much open quick time still open from something

that was just doing before this and like this thing is not crashing I can leave this thing on for 75 years and it's just a machine it's the bomb I love it but Linux is cool

and there's a lot of things you can do on Linux so I don't know I'm in this really world where I like Mac but I also love Linux are you doing the Omarchi thing with Linux?

No. Okay. No, I think that's dumb. And if you use an Omarchie, shame on you. And not for the reason you think.

Just kidding. I don't know. I'm just being silly. You do what you want out there, okay? I'm just joking around. You know, I think I'd be surprised if O'Marchie has this weird cult following. It just seems such a weird thing. Even using it, I'm like, I'm using DHH's operating system, not an operating system for developers,

which I guess you could say it's a derivative of that. But it feels so much like slaps around with his stuff. I'm not necessarily negative about the guy nor positive. I'm a centrist when it comes to him. I'm not foreign or against necessarily. And there's a lot of people who feel it's bleeds into politics, but I'll leave that aside. My choice to not use

it is not because of like a belief in him or not. I just feel like it's super opinionated and not my opinions. And I think I'm like hanging out with somebody else's toy box and they're not my toys. It's not cool. So that's how I feel. I have, I haven't looked into that specifically, but like everything that I

feel like everybody touts about, that system and like the opinions that it makes, I just do on my Mac and it works. Like, I use a tidling window manager. It's amazing. I use new of him, obviously. It's amazing. It's a

markdown editor or markdown reader still for me, but it's good at that. How do you feel about Zed? Does Zed like ever get a spot in your life as an editor? There's other editors. I'm a very important man. I can't be wasted in time. It's on his license plate. You can't switch editors at this point.

He's had to go re-license his car. Well, you had to at least have an opinion about it. Yeah, that it's trash. Gosh, dang. I don't think it's trash at all, person. I think it's one of the best editors out there. I have never looked at it. I've heard good things.

I feel no reason to switch out of Neovim. Like, there is nothing I'm missing. With Neovim, with a Claudecote instance and a Teemuk split next to it, there is nothing. That's the exact thing I want. He's also carrying around a large quantity of sunk cost fallacy. because Nick has spent hours and hours. Oh, dare you? Days getting his NeoVim set up.

And he can't just waste that time. The time was well spent unless he switches off of Vim, in which case it was a complete waste. I learned Lua. There you have it. That's the little smoking gun right there. This guy uses one indexed array languages just for Vim. Hilarious.

I'm just not feeling any of the wonderlust that you're having at him or even the browser situation or the web. I'm over here looking at my web history as you guys talk, and I'm just like, I go to tons of websites. I don't use very many apps. If you look at my history, I'm just like, everything's pretty much the same as it was five years ago, except for less Google searches.

Like I am going to turn to an AI first. I still end up on dot.com go a lot, just looking for a web page or something, or I can just find it faster than they can. But I'm not feeling like the web is very much different. From, and then I'm like, well, maybe I'm a dinosaur. So that's where I'm saying right now. I'm with you on that.

I mean, I just said how many tabs I have open. They're not the same website. But before you were lamenting how we don't go to websites anymore. I'm like, I've been the hundreds of websites this week and it's only Tuesday. Well, I was lamenting in that scenario where you're finding research and I didn't follow through from the research to go to those places. But, you know, in the meantime, I've got Fedora Linux 43 is here up as a tab. I've got Home Assistant OS here is, our Home Assistant OS is, yeah, I guess there's a tab open there. CapCut

GitHub, obviously. Website? Yeah, I got to, oh gosh, I got to do this. A parkour registration. My son is in parkour. I got to complete that mission. Omnihawk is now here in my tab, you know? Is it hardcore parkor?

It's actually a, no, I don't know what you mean by that. Hardcore, parkour. That's off the office. That's a clip from the office. Oh, sorry. Oh, I see. Yes. track your pickup 12 of my 14 tabs are GitHub and then I have one codeberg tab and I have one

with the button blog post that I didn't read see you know browse differently I still go to a lot of websites it's just I worry about the web if we're trying to like AI it in the browser and every website is just a summary of itself like what does that do like how does that change the web that's what my my real concern is not that I don't go enough websites anymore I still go to tons but how does this shift change what the web will be? That's my, I suppose, curiosity. Yeah. Everyone has to start thinking, like, if you want, nobody goes to Google, right? Do we know that these LLMs are indexing in the same way that a search engine would? So is search engine optimization the best thing? Especially if you have like a product that you want to sell and you want people to notice it,

if AI is not recommending you, you're doomed. Like, how do you get around that? And how do you start a new project you know like tanner linsley can start tan stack start and he's got enough clout that he can bypass that but if i was going to start i don't know very important man dot com dot com teacher business yeah like how would i how would i do that how would i well you launched on the change log podcast like you are right now yeah i don't know i mean would you start you know this is the neel patel question that he asked all the time on decoder and other of his shows which is like do you start a website today? Like if you're starting a new business, do you even start a website? Or do you start with a TikTok? Or do you start with a codeburger account? Like, what do you do? And I don't know the

answer to that. I guess it depends on what kind of website you want to start. What kind of business that you want to start? It seems like when it comes to e-commerce, the web still has a foothold, mostly through Shopify and then also through Amazon. But see, it would take, like Shopify is in a perfect position because they're like effectively thousands of little stores right right one mcp ui like tool and now you can shop any shopify site from any lLM that you're talking to and have like a rendered thing where you're picking out you know your your your favorite shirt from there and ordering it all straight through this UI that is dynamically rendered at the time that you asked for it and didn't exist before that that's interesting as a thought experiment uh

Yeah, a lot of things happen just in time now that you didn't have to before. And I'm actually like, throw that code away. Yeah, I don't care. You can generate it again. Who cares? Kind of thing. It's, it's, it's, uh, the things that were once coveted are kind of ephemeral in a way. Yeah.

And that's a weird feeling because it wasn't that way before. Yeah. It's like, oh, okay. I'll just try it again, you know. New thought, new research, new thing. Same output. Similar adventure. Now, if you're knee deep in a whole full on product.

could build or something like that's different but if it's like one sliver of something okay not the worst thing ever to have lost that or to the front of away or to spike it and try again what if for some reason some LLM like perplexity for some reason favored this one blog post that said changelog sucks and like that's what it repeats to people don't do that yeah that would sue them for libel right but finish your finish your thought though what was your thought Is that, was that it? I'm just, I don't know where to go from there, but like, it's, it's what you're thinking about now, right? Like, how do you counteract that?

There's, it's, it's like just a mystery right now, how to do all of this. Yeah. And I feel like we're just clinging to the vestiges of SEO as like the cornerstone of that and building. But even that was a mystery that Google would come out once every six months and say we were changing the algorithm. And then, like, all of the SEO gurus would, like, go into their little. labs and they would test things that come out and they'd sell you something that said put this in your website and you'll be rich you know yeah i don't know if that necessarily changes materially from what it has been it's just a different area same different poops same pile

no different pile same poop what's that saying i don't know same smell different poo i think the saying technically is same different day but i miss applied it i miss applied it that's stuff changes our behavior. And that's something interesting to look into. Sure. Like one thing that is freaking terrible is this whole trend of, I'm going to mention something, but I'm not going to link to it. And then I'll have like a follow on or a comment. The first comment is the link to it. Just it's the worst. And like if you do that. But if you're going to play the game, are you going to play the game or not? I know. That's the problem. I've done it before. So have I. It changes your, it changes the way you live your life.

But then every time I see it, I'm like, I hate the person that did that because they're playing the game that I've also played. I have an answer for us, Nick. I have an answer. It's called mesh-tastic. Here's what we do. We set up a mesh network between your house and my house. And we just connect our lands together. And we just, you know, we internet between the two houses and maybe anybody else in the region that wants to join.

And we start our own little splinter net where we make the rules. I like this. You like this? This can't go wrong at all. Put your link right there in the, this never goes wrong. We move out to a mountain somewhere and we start our own little commune. Like that's basically where you end up, right? Unless you're just going to embrace, extend and enjoy.

That's right. This is where we started. Is there any prediction you may have, Nick? You're just so full of exploration and some discovery, I suppose. You have opinions. Do you have any predictions for obviously this next year? We're at the end of the year. Yeah. I think that like the code, the code that we're writing is, if you're still writing a lot of code, you're going to write less next year. I think that that's a given at this point.

Are you going to produce more? You're going to produce more, but you're going to write less. You're going to be involved less in the day-to-day minutia of the code. There's ways around that to be. as productive, I think. Like one thing, I don't know, you ask for a prediction. I guess that's my prediction. Can I give you a recommendation of something to try?

You can do what you want. All right. So I'm talking about Claude code because if you're, because that's the one that I use the most, but you could probably do this with the other ones. But Claude has this thing called output styles that they deprecated.

And then they got pushback on that. And so they undeprecated it. And so it's still here, at least for right now. but it's a way to change the system prompt a little bit so that you can tell it exactly how you want it to respond to you and it ships with two examples. One of them is explanatory

where it'll give you like a little insight bubbles about why it's making a decision that it made or whatever. And the other one is learning. And that learning one is specifically for, you know, I want to go learn the Go programming language. And so when you have that enabled, it's going to optimize for you to fill out like some of the more,

like, oh, it'd be good for you to learn. learn how to do loops and go. So I'm going to stub out this method and you're going to fill it in. And it'll give you prompts and tell you how to how to do it in like code comments. And then you can, it'll pause there and have you do it, but you can ask questions before moving on. You can tweak that. You can make as many output styles as you want, but you can tweak that.

And you can tweak it to be more of like a, a business logicy one. I forgot what I exactly call mine. It's like, yeah, I can't remember what I call it. But you can tell it to basically fill out the minutia of the code. Like stub out this method, add the getters and setters and all that stuff that is boring. You know, just get the work done work. Have it do that. But then like the core business logic stuff, pause and let me do that.

And we'll talk about it and walk through it together. And you can even do most of it maybe. But like that way you're more involved in what the code is actually doing. you're stopping to take part and participate because otherwise the code is just scrolling by you and then you know already like in the past you know six months go by and i have no idea what code i wrote six months ago that i have to go debug it's like that week to week now with all of this code so if you're not keeping yourself involved in it then you don't really have a solid footing like mentally on what what code is passing by you and that your name is being attached to because

it's still your name on the commit. So use that to be involved. And that's a good way to, like, have the AI optimize for you doing the fun parts and it doing the minutia. So the way you get there is how you do output style? Yep. And it's called researcher? No.

The one I, let me, I forgot what it was called. Oh, that's right. You forgot what it's called. Is it in your plugins? It's in my dot file. Because the marketplace doesn't allow for output styles. Okay. Put that in your reading or something like that.

Same place, but outside the loop. Mine's just called important stuff. Gosh. Oh, man. Well, that's cool. That is cool. Yeah, that's true because you're producing more code than you probably ever have before. It's whizz and by you.

It's like, yeah, that checks out. That checks out. But do you really code review every single? single line where you know for sure it represents, you know, your beliefs or I guess your coding beliefs. I personally try to. And that's because all of the code I write professionally is on open source on GitHub. And so I don't want to like, I don't want my company or me to have this reputation that I'm just like slopping out this code. I want it to have my sale of approval on everything. And so I try and stay on top of every line of it and understand that.

I'm on the commit message. I'm the one blamed in the gig. Yeah. Well, let's push pause right there then because I want to do a special plus plus anchoring off that. And so if you're listening now and you're not a plus plus subscriber, well, the reason why you do is because you get this a little bonus from Nick. Hopefully it's good and it's worth your money.

But change all the comm slash plus plus. It is better. 10 bucks a month, 100 bucks a year. Go behind the scenes with us. Dig in. And there you go. So anything else,

any other predictions that you want to share, Nick, or anything else that you want to tease before we end this friends? We're not going to achieve AGI next year. Next year. I will have you know that. Who's as we you're talking about? Humanity. Humanity, okay.

I'm not participating in any way. Oh, man. So a little mention here at the end. Terminator 1 and 2 was on sale for Black Friday, 4K Blu-rays. You know, I have Plex. I love it. Theater, all that good stuff. And I'm so excited because I haven't had a chance to rip it yet, but I'm going to

rewatch for the first time, probably 20 years, Terminator 1 and 2, which, in my opinion, are the best Terminator movies there are of the Terminator. Of course, right? Yeah. You're not including three? Three is probably pretty good. I just forget it. You know, I don't even know, honestly.

It probably was, it was a judgment day? Yeah. No, that's two. That was two, right? No, judgment day is two, yeah. Yeah. Rise of the Machines? What's three called?

It was trash. That was true. Terminator 3. Trash Day. I don't know. The trash rises again. Yeah, exactly. But two is amazing.

And one's also very good. That's part of my December. That's a classic, Nick. Did you do that off Sora? Was that Sora? Are you actually doing that? That'll be the next one, yeah. We have to clip that, first of all.

And secondly, I have to tell our listener who's not watching that, Nick just slow melted into the, Liquid hot magma was it, with a thumbs up, just like Arnold did in Terminator 2. Is it a 2 or 1? I don't know. It was 2. It was 2. He did melt. He melted in 2.

So my plan in December is to rewatch those movies, but in 4K, in HDR with a fantastic sound system, very large, comparative to how I watched it originally. It was probably on like a 19-inch RCA, you know, analog TV or something like that. I'm just guessing. or maybe one of those TVs you had as furniture in your living room. You know, one of those. I might have watched it on that as a VCR, probably from a VHS tape. Oh, my goodness.

So there you go. I'm dating myself, but Blu-ray for the win, 4K Blu-ray. It was a holiday plan. If you still like it. Yeah, I will. I will. Nick, thanks for bringing us all your, whatever this has been the last 90 minutes. It's been awesome.

Thank you. It was a lot of fun. It always is. by Nick by friends my friends so it was a grab bag of fun conversations

of course it's always good to have Nick in the house Nick as a friend Nick Nick or should I say very important man my gosh that's so cool

Vim is cool but very important man per child is it's pretty funny honestly it's pretty funny okay stick around because we do have a plus plus segment

for you Of course, it's better. Yeah, it is better. Changelog.com slash plus plus 10 bucks a month, 100 bucks a year, bonuses, just for you, just in time for the holidays. Unwrap it, enjoy it, and you're welcome. Of course, a big thank you to our friends

and our partners over at Fly, our friends at Tiger Data, our friends at namespace, our friends at Notion, and of course, our friends at Nordlare. Check them out. They support this show, and we appreciate you. you for doing so. All right. This show's done. We'll see you on Monday.

Give me the details. Give me the specifics. You're in Cloud Code and you're working on something for WorkOS and you're really writing a feature. What is your flow? How do you you truly, you know, pay attention to the code. Give me the very, very detailed visual. Exactly what's happening. Paint it as best you can. Okay. So I will say I do a lot of experimenting.

So I play around with, I've been playing around with, um, Stevie Aguiz thing. Um, is it beads? I think. Yeah.

Looking at that, I've been looking at, um, GitHub, GitHub's thing, Specify. And I just do my, I rolled my own as well.

And the problem with rolling your own, is you have to maintain it. And as things, models get better, are you still using the best practices? Like, I just don't want to chase that constantly. So that's why I'm, like, experimenting with other ones because then they can go chase it and I can just reap the benefits.

But I have been playing around with that. Also, Opus 4.5, I don't know if this is an opus thing specifically, but, like, their planning mode is different now, and it's a lot better. It asks you questions. Yeah. Like, it asks you questions in, like, an interface.

It saves that off to a dot, like in your home directory, dot clod slash plans and then it gives it a random name for the plan but it's there as a markdown file and I noticed that and it was asking me to do all of these things it was saying like run slash plan it kept telling me that yesterday run slash plan so it's like given me a preview I think of what's to come but I play around with all of those so a feature comes in if it's like a GitHub issue I have it like I have a command that I run to have it read the issue and it's usually like, let's look at, like, is this a legitimate thing?

And so if it is, like, it'll run through that and it'll be like, oh, yeah, I see that. It's on this line of code where I think the problem is. And that's like how I do a lot of reactive stuff is like that. But I don't just trust it and say like, oh, yeah, that's it. I have like example apps and I, that are just like vanilla, you know, they have work OS off kit set up in them or whatever. And I just have them, I'm like, okay, let's create a test page in that app. And you can do like slash add der and have it.

work in multiple directories at the same time.