The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - We see dead projects (Friends)

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

It's a FRIGHT...when your record a podcast with dead projects all around. Tech debt, poor choices, timing, market shift, and optimizing for the wrong things are all lurking around waiting to pop out at you! Just don't forget to push record.

Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, the Spooky Edition. Ooh, ha. Big thanks to our friends over at fly.io, getting our back, hosting our stuff, being the thing that makes our thing just that much better. Check them out at fly.io. Okay, let's talk. Spooky. Well, friends, I don't know about you, but something bothers me about GitHub Actions.

I love the fact that it's there. I love the fact that it's so ubiquitous. I love the fact that agents that do my coding for me believe that my CI CD workflow begins with drafting Toml Files for GitHub Actions. That's great. It's all great. Until, yes, until your builds start moving like molasses. Getup actions is slow. It's just the way it is. That's how it works. I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry because our friends at Namespace, they fix that. Yes, we use Namespace. Dot So to do all of our builds so much faster. Namespace is like GitHub actions, but faster, I'm like way faster. It caches everything smartly. It cashes your dependencies, your Docker layers, your build artifacts, so your CI can run super fast. You get

shorter feedback loops, half your developers because we love our time, and you get fewer, I'll be back after this coffee and my build finishes. So that's not cool. The best part is it's drop-in. It works right alongside your existing GitHub actions with almost zero config. It's a one-line change. So you can speed up your builds, you can delight your team, and you can finally stop pretending that build time is focus time. It's not. Learn more. Go to namespace.com. So, that's namespace.so, just like it sounds like it said. Go there, check them out. We use them, we love them, and you should too, namespace.

So I got a confession to make. Okay. One time. One time. When I was doing an interview for this show. Okay. I went about 20 minutes into the show. And I realized.

that I did not hit the record button. Gosh. And it was a guess. Like I had just met that day. And we were grooving. Oh, man. And we were having a blast. And then I stopped.

And I said, I am so sorry. Because I've done this. How many times have we done this? Just so many. So many. In fact, I think my personal episode count has broke the 1,000 mark at this point. And I think you're getting close to that. I wouldn't doubt it.

Yes. And I said, I am so sorry. I'm not going to, I'm not going to docks him. And I said, but I have not been recording this. Now, I said, hopefully, you're recording a local of your own. And he said, I am. And I said, I'm recording a local of my own. And he said, okay, I think we're good then. And we stopped and made sure that he was recording and it was good. And you could hear him and mine was recording. And it was good. And relief. Sudden. rush of relief when we realized we hadn't wasted 20 good minutes. Now, that was a couple of years ago. And I got another confession to make. Oh, gosh. And this is not a confession to you, Adam, because you know this. I do know this.

To our dear listeners, I did it a second time. Yeah, sure did. However, this time we did not have any backups. No. My quick time has been on the fritz. It keeps crashing on me or something or other. Mine's running, but you can't do it with one voice. So we just spent 45 minutes recording some dynamic dialogue for y'all.

Some really good stuff. Really good stuff. And it's now into the ether, you know? We were piping it to Dev Null the whole time. That's not cool. That's a bad place to go if you want the good stuff. The good stuff does not go to Dev Nol. Okay.

It goes to maybe temporary. I would be very happy if we found that conversation. We can restore it and give it to Jason and say, edit this, would you? There it is. There's a temp. But we think it's Dev, we're pretty sure. We're 100% sure it's Dev Null. So, um, Riverside should tell you this, though, right?

Like, this should be a Riverside feature. Like, you're getting dramatic. Are you recording right now? Similar to like how your watch says, are you working out? Yeah. Like, hey, are you doing a run? And you're like, no, but sure. I'm just tax on this walk, okay?

Don't make fun of me. I know. It's kind of insulting sometimes. you're like, I'm not actually working out. I'm just a little bit out of shape and I'm breathing heavy, okay? But when it does get it, when you do forget to start your workout, it's pretty nice. It is nice. And had we gotten a notification, even like three or five minutes in to that diatribe,

we would have been so happy. So happy. Because you can't just go back and redo the same conversation. No, we can't. We have to leave that one in the ether for you guys. It was really good. It was so good, you guys. You should, you're going to love it.

You should have been there. You should have been there. Okay. All right. So let's do a new show then. Let's do a brand new show. Setting all of that aside, which none of you guys know what we're talking about, but that's fair. We do.

If you see it on our faces right now. You can't know what we're talking about. If I'm like a little white, like a ghost, that's why. Today's episode is all about death. Oh, yeah. So much death. The death of projects. The death of open source projects.

The death of closed source projects. This show is called I see dead projects. And it is a episode request from a good friend Thomas Eckert who requested it last year for last Halloween and we didn't do anything about it. Dreams come true. Now, Thomas, you get what you asked for a year later. And his idea was, hey,

what if you just go out and find some of these stories of open source and other projects that have gone by the wayside, whether they were abandoned, whether they were beat out by competitors, whether money destroyed them, or maybe they were just finished, whatever it was, find some stuff, and tell those stories. Now, we're not going to tell you all about Quicksilver.

Can't do it. It hurts too bad. It just told each other about it. It hurt too bad. And it hurts too bad. It hurts so good. But that gives us more time to talk about other things that aren't Quicksilver. And I got off onto a tangent while researching this.

I got off onto a killed by Google tangent. Because when I think of the death, of many pieces of software that many people of love, people have loved. Don't you just think Google's murdered so many of them? Well, find your way

to killed by google.com where we have a three by three grid maintained by Cody Ogden on GitHub, an open source project that loads a cool website from a JSON file with 290

things that Google has killed over the years. I haven't even built that much software in my life. Have you had 298 software projects? Probably not. No, that's a lot. There's one I didn't even know it was dead right here. Oh, you just found out. Chromecast?

Yeah, I don't even use it, but I'm surprised by that one. I think they're like decided they were going to discontinue that and replace it with like some new Google TV thing or something. something? I think it's still software, right? It's still a protocol. You can still cast. Oh, I think maybe Chromecast the hardware. It does see hardware. The actual Chromecast. Like, they're not going to produce those anymore. But there's so many things. Of course, the big ones, right? So the biggest one that kills me to this day would be Google Reader.

Yeah. Killed over 12 years ago. Faithfully served from 2005 to 2013 and not only did goodling google reader kill google reader it kind of killed rSS as a social phenomena i mean except for us weirdos and hippies never let it go who are still using our rsss like feed bin or feedly or what have you but google reader really drove away the death of google reader drove away what we'd say like mass adoption of RSS as a thing

and that was a big bummer how about Google Wave or Google Wave? A lot of buzz around that one right was that it was so weird what was Wave was that the I was the host thing about Google Plus oh that was a follow-up I think Google Wave came

first yeah it attempted to Google Wave released in 2009 yes it was like real-time collaborative stuff. It was like you hop. It was like a collaborative editing tool, kind of like in a social network fashion of like we're all working on this thing together

and talking to each other. And that was the idea like you hop on the wave and you ride it for a while. And it was very interesting. I think it was like very much a single page app with all the Google engineering in it. Got tons of people super excited. I'm seeing a trend here

I'm looking at these Maybe I'm just in a certain era Looking at these but Killed almost 13 years ago Killed about 13 years ago Killed 13 years ago Like what happened 13 years ago Google

Right And something was something going on A lot of them died 13 years ago Or just the ones I'm looking at Yeah reader was a tough one because I agree I mean that one seemed misplaced project

and say can you just figure how to make some money from it and not kill it but you know just like you can't go to Target today and buy a Blu-ray what's up with that who's killing the Blu-Rays man

the death physical media is dying it really is dying and my Plex catalog is suffering as a result such a shame well this website also catalogs open source things

Angular JS killed almost four years ago. As about 11 years old, you have polymer. Angularjs is dead. Angular.js is dead according to Killed by Google.com.

That's so wild because I think I know somebody who's just talking about it. I won't name them because it's embarrassing and they weren't aware of this. This is news to them. So I think... This is news. They were excited.

That's not good. Sorry, y'all. No, I think they were. replaced it with Angular without the JS. So it's like, I don't know if that's a spiritual successor or a fork or a rebrand. I don't know what it is

in relation because I don't play in this pond. However, Angularjs as a thing is dead and Angular which you can find at angular.dev is probably the same thing. I don't know. Some of our Angular fans out there can let us know

what's up with that. But Angular JS was killed. So I guess rest easy two Adams unspoken of friend yeah I mean maybe they were talking about Angular

maybe they already know Angular. Angular.dev versus Angular.js.org right to be clear a lot of death

over the Google you know I mean they I think about two years ago when we were first talking about this AI hype wave

and what's happening there I think I was even bullish saying that Google would not win they would die what's wrong

with me but they're all playing this did you say that on this show I didn't said they're in trouble if they don't change. I mean, they seem so far behind the ball.

Well, Google search as it currently existed, certainly was being, was being assaulted. It's, I mean, it's dead to me. I don't even Google something if, like, I'm just trying to find a thing. So its usefulness has degraded to about 10% of my needs. It hasn't become less useful. It's just not as useful as other things. My needs have shifted, you know, that's just how it works. Well, I want a recipe.

Give me the recipe. Riff with me. Make Mexican chicken with me. Okay, don't point me to 17 Mexican chicken recipes. Let's be chefs. Let's make some food. Let's go. Good rant.

I like that. That was a solid rant. All right. So lots of stuff killed over there by Google of varying qualities and interests. But that's just kind of how they do what they do. And sometimes we feel a vein. and other times we don't really know what it was.

Google Revolve. I have no idea what that was. No. Google Now? No idea. Songza beats me. Google flu trends. I heard about it for the first time right now.

It's been dead since 2015. So, lots of engineers over there and lots of engineering. So let's turn now to something else. Oh, well, didn't fully prepare for this one, but mostly, let's just say mostly. Okay.

I would say, you know, there's been a lot of advancements on the front end, one in particular that has evolved naturally is CSS. It lagged for a bit there. I think there were things like SaaS and, gosh, there was something else. Less was a thing. I just reminded about this in my brain just now.

Don't know about less, never really caught on personally for me for some reason. but the original SaaS was created by the person, which I can't remember his name in the moment, but he's a close friend. I'm so sorry. Created Hamill, which was popular to Rubius back the day.

It was white space aware, similar to Python is. And the original SaaS syntax was just that it was a pre-processor? Yeah, it was a pre-processed before you got the actual CSS. It's kind of cool. I've done a terrible job of explaining it, but sass. To me, I don't know if this is true. Don't be offended if you're still working on this.

It's kind of like dead or dying. You know, it's evolved. It did his job. Just like Quicksover, didn't hear about that. Now, did you? Listener. No, you didn't. That's okay.

Just like Quicksover, we discussed that in the Ether show, so to speak. Quick Silver enabled. enabled this first mover phenomenon to help Apple essentially bake a lot of features in the Quicksilver launched with. Got to bring that pun back. And then SaaS did the same thing, I believe, in a great spirit to CSS.

Like the goal was never, let's make SaaS the thing. It was, let's make CSS better by adding SaaS to it. And you pre-processed this, you know, this superset of CSS is what SaaS. was it sat above and on top of CSS proper and it gave you a lot of superpowers you just didn't have on the front end and uh i don't know where it's at right now honestly well i went to sass dash lane.com slash blog and it's officially dead was it posted the 23rd of october

2025 this was five days ago okay live sass timely great time Breaking news. Yeah. SAS is end of life. LibSAS has reached end of life. LibSass and the packages built on top of it have been deprecated since October of 2020. So that's five years ago. In the five years since we made that announcement, the SaaS language has continued to evolve to support the latest CSS features like color spaces and embedded SaaS.

Made it easy to run DartSass across numerous different languages and platforms. DartSass now meets essentially all the use cases that LibSass once did. at the same time development of LibSAS has faltered there hasn't been a new commit to the source code repository since December of 2023 and there are numerous issues languishing unaddressed

the time has come to be clear LibSass is no longer maintained and will receive no future updates so that's LibSass I don't know what I don't know what DARTSass is because I'm not in that world but I think this is I can give you a little bit of that picture

so I remember Hampton Catlin So I remember the name. That's the person, Michigan Hampton. Created Hamill, created SAS. I believe SAS was, I don't know, C++, maybe. I know LibSass was definitely C++. And so the engine, I believe, for SaaS was slow. And the challenge for a while, the argument for many was, it's slow.

Can you make it faster? And I believe they extracted out the engine, which was LibSass. And that was rewritten. And it was, it came many years after SaaS was even a thing. I think it was originally written at Ruby. Now that I remember, maybe it was Ruby. And LibSass was written in C and C+++, it was meant to be the language that are the, the library that others could leverage to make their SaaS better. So if you had a different SaaS implementation, you have one in Ruby, you have one for Dart.

Dart was a language, Google language, actually, I believe. Darling. I should see if they've killed it yet. Hold on. Let's go see. Killed by Google.com. Oh, DART. You are safe.

Continue using DART. You are safe. That is not cake. And that's pretty much it. You know, you got LibSass, which was the promise of the future. Get that thing extracted out of that slow Ruby world, if I'm speaking correctly, if I'm not, just assume it's truth. Okay. I believe there was a Node SaaS because the node ecosystem needed a special way and they

leverage lib sass to make node sass and so you had s CSS which was more like the traditional sass or sorry CSS syntax which had parentheses and curly braces and all the fun stuff and yeah it's uh and now what do we have got tailwind right is that is that is that we have i resist the front end if i have to go to the front end these days man i'm just upset I'm just upset You know Put it in the terminal Put it in the terminal

That's where I live now Okay So SaaS was the radically different looking one right Like it was no curly braces It was white space significant Okay And just like Hamill was very much minimal And white space significant

Templating language SaaS looked different than CSS And so you kind of had to learn a separate Maybe call it a dialect of CSS in order to use it, and then S-C-S-S. So that was SaaS. S-C-S, which was also part of, I think, LibSS and the whole SaaS community, was the, as you said, kind of the more CSS-looking version

that still got the features that you wanted. Because the features that it had that you really wanted. Well, you could drop it in for CSS. You can literally take a dot-c-svod. Just call it. Dot S-C-S-S and you were using SASS. It was a superset of CSS, correct. But what you really wanted was nesting and variables. and then it got fancier from there

and people who are, you know, hardcore front-enders and designers who love CSS and all the features, you could like use it as a polyfill basically to get new CSS features before they existed. Precisely.

And that's what the attraction was, was that. Totally. And now most of that's pretty much built in. I mean, yeah. Variables and nesting, I'm a happy camper.

Like, I don't need much else. Includes and employ. and imports and a lot of that stuff was all. I mean, hats off to everyone involved there. Natalie, I think there's Chris, I forget his last name in the moment.

These were dear friends of mine over the years. Just paid attention closely to that. I mean, thankfully all that work went into it because it all poured into eventually a better CSS world and it's no longer needed. So I think to say dead in this case,

end of life, I believe, is better, the better term like it did in the blog. Because it did its job, right? It was not meant to replace CSS. It was meant to augment and be a superset of it to push it forward and give you features that you just couldn't have otherwise because you could just use CSS. It was actually kind of hard to use SAS because of the SAS version, because of the S CSS version, because of the eventual lib sass and just it seemed like a challenging space to get into.

I will say, though, that the original syntax that mimicked the beauty of what Hamill brought, which was this white space aware, white space significant world, you can easily see what you said before, which was important, which was the nesting. You could see how far based on indentation

you were being. And you could tell pretty quickly by looking at a sass.s.s.s.file how terrible your CSS nesting and inheritance and tree essentially was, your specificity was just way off or way too. Way too deep. Way too deep, yeah. Too specific.

Yeah, too many selectors. Yeah, and that I think to this day is the pro argument for white space significant languages is that you can at a glance see if you're getting crazy with your internet. That being said, while I understand that stance, I think you can also see it even with curly braces. I guess you're not required to indent, but anybody who's not indenting their code, like, talk about death, you're dead to me, you know. Just don't care. Don't care to collaborate with you. You better indent that code.

That's right. Or you may have another thing coming. so the indentation as advantage of white space significance is like the scanability i get it i just think it's not such an advantage that being said i'm not a white space hater i've enjoyed i liked hamill quite a bit i like how clean it looked and i appreciate python at times as well although even with white space significant i've seen some pretty gnarly python code so you know you can make a mess no matter where you are in the world. Just start being messy.

Well, friends, agentic Postgres is here. And it's from our friends over at Tiger Data. This is the very first database built for agents, and it's built to let you build faster. You know, a fun side note is 80% of Claude was built with AI. Over a year ago, 25% of Google's code was AI generated. It's safe to say that now it's probably close to 100%. Most people I talk to,

most developers I talk to you right now, almost all their code is being generated. That's a different world. Here's the deal. Agents are the new developers. They don't click, they don't scroll, they call, they retrieve, they parallelize. They plug in your infrastructure to places you need to perform, but your database is probably still thinking about humans only, because that's kind of where Postgres is at. Tiger Data's philosophy is that when your agents need to spin up sandboxes, run migrations, query huge volumes, a vector and text data, well, normal Postgres, it might choke. And so they fix that. Here's where we're at right now. Agentic Postgres delivers these three big leaps, native search and retrieval, instant zero copy forks, and MCP server,

plus your CLI plus a cool free tier. Now, if this is intriguing at all, head over to tigredata.com, install the CLI, just three commands, spin up an agent to Postgres service, and let your agents work at the speed they expect, not the speed of the old way. The new way, agenti postgres,

it's built for agents, is designed to elevate your developer experience and build the next big thing. Again, go to tigurdata.com to learn more. You know, there's nothing like a good project that was brand new, though, that can use the original, the OGS-A-S syntax, because, like, you didn't have to compete with old CSS to move around and support. You could just start this new world with this indented world. And until you had to copy CSS from Stack Overflow or something like that, you were like, you were pretty happy. you know and then you had like paste it and then do a bunch of deletion we didn't have

AI back then to like automate this stuff gosh that's wild to even say that we didn't have AI back then yeah like the bad old days yeah like why would I write that code it would do it for you okay it will do it for you listen today took a little break I just want to think about a feature or I just want to think about a feature here I am an amp and I'm like hey amp can we Can we talk? Can we talk? I got an idea for the future and I just want to think about it with you. Man,

I dropped that idea in there. I'm not kidding you. Dude, I got an email went and read it, responded back, was happy. Okay, let me get back to my anthem.

Let me see what they did. Feature was done. I said, let's think about it. Okay. Let's talk about this. Let's not do the work. Made a bunch of changes all correct and stuff.

Shifted the production and everything. Gosh. in a bleak of an eye, meant to think about it, the feature was done. What a world. What a world. That's not even a joke, man.

That's no hot purple. That's true. That was not fabricated for podcast material. That was straight up truth. I just got a little bit concerned when you started talking to AMP, kind of like a Marvin Gay style voice, you know. Let's talk about, let's think about it. Well, I was being, I really was like, can we just,

I know you're a doer. Okay, I know you're a doer. Amp, you just go and do stuff. Can we just talk about it? No, I'm a doer. Amp says, I'm going to go do this. I can't plan. I only do.

It plans well. It's got the Oracle. It comes back with good stuff. But I went and got that email taken care of, came back, and it was done. And I was like, all right, cool. I was kind of upset because I really wanted to think about it, but it wasn't necessary.

It's like, gosh, man. I just want to think about that feature for a second. No, I can't. It's done. No input. Yeah, but was it good? It was a pretty simple feature. It didn't require a lot of thinking.

I'm just trying to incrementally inch into this one because I had a whole field version of it. I will reveal to you right now what it is. I've been itching this scratch for a while to replace pie hole with DNS hole. I like it a lot. It's just got a good ring. and I can't let it go. I failed. The first project version of it, just total failure.

I was vibing all over the place, slanted code, slop everywhere, rust memories, unsafe things, just literally, just dead code everywhere. Like if you're a restation, you're just pissed at my code, okay? You're just slapping my code all around. Well, I learned my lesson, okay? I just went ahead and said, that's V1. it is now a reference only project and just started off simple and now simple so much better. In fact, D&S Simple is sitting at, it's resolving all my DNS queries as we speak on this podcast. D& Simple is?

Sorry, D&S Simple. D&S Whole. DNS whole is resolving all of my DNS queries right now. It is. Yeah. That's pretty cool. I'm excited about that. I have a new phenomenon when I try to start a new project now or I don't. don't know what language it should be in anymore.

Like, I used to have opinions. Yeah. But I do eventually resolve. So, for instance, I started up this, it's like a static site generator thing that does some crawling, blah, blah, blah. And I just tell it what I want. I'm just like, you know, this is cloud code. And I'm like, you just do your thing and come back to me.

And it came back to me with a Python script, you know? And I was like, well, I guess I didn't specify. I didn't want to specify. But now I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, yeah, no, not really. And I'm like, let's rewrite this in JavaScript. No typescript, please. Just pure JavaScript. Keep it clean, you know, keep it loose.

Give me options. No types. No types. Do not constrain me. I'm vibe coding, okay? That's right. And so it ports it to JavaScript. And it in a blink of an eye.

And I'm like, that was cool. And then I build out some features. And I get going. I realize I want this actually to run on a remote server, which is a shared server. So I don't have access to NPM. I have Node there. It's an older version.

I can run it, but I can't run NPM. And, of course, this thing vibe coded up a couple of packages, I think mostly around requests and stuff like that. Maybe like HTML parsing and query stuff.

So I'm like, well, that sucks. And so I'm like, you know what? Port yourself to go. And then, bam, go. And I said,

compile yourself to... Always bid on go. I like go for that reason. You know, Just compile yourself to go. I've got everything in one binary. I just SCP that sucker to the remote server. It's compiled against the Linux that they expect over there on my shared hosting.

It even embeds the HTML templates and the CSS and everything. You embed it all in one binary, dude. So cool. One binary to save them all. That's how it goes right there. Either R Sync or SCP, that sucker, anywhere you want, and just run it. No depends. He's no package managers.

Now, the code is kind of, you know, verbose and ugly. Who cares? Do the test pass? Does it work? I'm glad that you said the second part. Because I did not request any tests. Well, the thing about cloud code is, you know, if you give Claude Code a task, it's going to write the task.

And if you don't specify, please also write specs or whatever. If you're just like, do this thing. It's going to actually test that it does it via its own little, you know shell scripts and stuff it's going to like you know output to a test directory and it's going to grep the thing and it's going to set and it's going to ock and it's going to you know count lines and whatever it's got to do to make sure that it's right and then it's going to say hey i'm done and you're like that's testing that's testing no i don't have an automated test suite at the end of the day but

that's right those tests are like one done i see you but yeah they work it's all low stakes stuff anyways you know that's what i use it for is like low stakes You know, I'm not like resolving my own DNS with it or something. In that case, it is higher stakes. Yeah, it is. All right. Well, we're up, we're upstream here. Let's go to another project that is dead for various definitions of the word dead.

We aren't calling, we aren't declaring death. In fact, I know this one still lives in a sense. But it doesn't live in the way that it originally was pitched to live, which was as the future of web development, Yes, I'm talking about Meteor.js. Oh, yeah. Wow. Remember Meteor?js? Often something called Meteor.

It was open source. It was a full stack JavaScript framework. Came out around 2011 back in the early days of JQuery, backbone, node, stuff like that. Initially developed by some folks at White Combinator. Yes, this was one of the reasons

why it's now being declared dead because it was VC backed from the start. But built by some cool devs, Jeff Schmidt, David Greenspan. He co-created Etherpad. Remember Etherpad? Rings a bell, yeah. Etherpad was one of the very first things that was like collaborative editing,

like Google Docs. And it was open source and self-hostable. And so people would stand it up and they would use it for like their own little, you know, real-time collaborative editors. inside their web apps. And it was very cool. I'm not sure what's going on with either paddock.

That could probably be another story there. Matt Divergalis. I'm not sure how to say your last name, Matt, and Nick Martin. That was the team, dropped huge fanfare. April 2012, largest hacker news debut of all time, according to this. Probably since then, there's been larger ones, but at least at the time. It was huge. Got lots of fanfare.

Lots of people trying it. Exploded unpopularity. Kind of a typical hockey stick growth kind of thing. Raise more money. Raise more money. This is an MIT licensed project that just keeps raising more money. In July 2012, they secure $11.2 million in seed funding from A16Z. They hire people.

They buy infrastructure. By 2013, they release a package manager. by Tom Coleman that was actually integrated into the core there's this Discover Meteor which was either a newsletter or some sort of website

co-authored by a friend of the show Sasha Grief and Tom Coleman of course you know Sasha was big into Meteor for a long time really big yeah and you know things continued up into the right

2014 they raised $20 million series B round and they've totaled over $31 million raised. FathomDB comes out. So they have a database, a cloud database. Galaxy, they launched Galaxy, which is like a hosting platform for Meteor apps.

So that was kind of the play was like, you know, it's all open source and free. But if you want it to be hosted by us on our Galaxy, that's how you pay money. And performance monitoring. So they started to productize around 2013. Continue to grow. I mean, the package registry had thousands. of community packages, start to integrate MPM. In 2015, they got worldwide production apps out there.

So, I mean, not unsuccessful by any means. I call this success. For many definitions of that word, things continue to go, okay, 2016, they were making, exceeding their revenue goals, according to them. But community debates are running. There was purists who love the all-in-one simplicity. Others demanded deeper modern tooling integration. So the community started to disagree on the tech itself

and the direction that it should go. They started moving towards GraphQL, and that laid the groundwork for Apollo. Remember Apollo GraphQL, that's still out there, which was a spinoff. And then, you know, what happened basically was just like new JavaScript frameworks came out that were more interesting than more people.

And because they were, like, so fueled by VC money, they needed to grow faster than they could grow. Eventually, Discover Meteor grew outdated. You know, people started moving on. The state of JavaScript survey, of course, is a Sachner-Greeves thing he's been doing for a long time now. So the state of, the state of J.S actually catalogued Meteor's interest, and then you can start to see the decline.

And sometimes that is a, what do you call it? a self-fulfilling prophecy like people start to see it declining in interest and so they are less likely to be interested in it and just that momentum downwards can actually be a problem and so the transparency around that actually perpetuates it but still got worked on and then in 2019 all of a sudden they read it they changed MDG which is the company behind it all pivoted from Meteor to Apollo GraphQL. They saw more money in that, I think. This deprioritized Meteor's core development,

frustrating people. And then in October 2019, Tiny Capital, who are owners of dribble and other things, acquired Meteor.js and Galaxy, that's their hosting service assets for an undisclosed sum. So it got sold off and renamed Meteor Software. Got put in the maintenance mode.

I mean, more emphasizing maintenance than growth. And Tiny, which was the company that bought it, pledged they'd support it for long term, like five years. Still out there. Still going. Yep. That's wild to think about that. They call it a renaissance, Meteor 3.0 and beyond.

people still working on it has a small community and so by no means dead legacy perhaps the influence endures it helped birth UJS Apollo obviously other things storybook but by no means it would take the world over

as it was supposed to and so in that sense you know the original mission of Meteor as the future of web development it's gone with the wind You know, I never get on the train. I never understood it personally. It was always confusing to me. They did an interesting thing like munging server and client code early on,

which of course, you know, React team has been struggling to make that a thing in the public's eyes at least. Like they made it technically a thing. But in terms of adoption and people understanding it, it's been an uphill battle for them as well. Meteor had that from the very start. I did use it one time for a hackathon. Had a lot of fun with it. Built a game for a hackathon. And it was very strange, like knowing, am I writing server code or my writing client code?

And they were syncing stuff for you. It was very kind of advanced at the time that it was out there. Had a lot of cool innovations in it. Maybe because of the time that I tried it, but also what I tried it for, to me, it felt more like a toy than a tool that I would build a business around. Not that it necessarily was, but that's just the way that it felt to me. So I never took it super seriously, but obviously lots of people did. And they've had lots of, they got 44,000 get-up stars,

508,000 installs, 29,000 stack overflow questions. So, I mean, they definitely got out there and people use it. But, yeah, no longer as culturally relevant, surely as it was, back in the good old days I mean to be honest about the the dead bodies

in the JavaScript world is just plentiful yeah that's true right I mean good luck winning that war you know

just just be happy even when you're winning like two years later all of a sudden they're like we're just not interested anymore you know

we need the new we don't even we don't even actually you still solve our problems okay you're still good we still like anymore

Okay. We're just used to get new things. Okay. Where's the new thing? Right. That's my feeling as a front end or in the JavaScript world is just like expect change, expect churn. And honestly, it's what tired me out of really wanting to play in that world at all. It's just like trying to keep up is basically impossible. That being said, if you look at it today, it's basically the same thing as it was five years ago.

I mean, what's popular in JS land front end world today? It's React, basically. It's Next.js. You have people, you know, raging against Next.js. You have other, I mean, there's always experimentation. There's always people saying React is dead, React is this or that, but it's still just the 800-pound gorilla right now. And, yeah, there's been innovations along the way and alternatives along the way.

But it's not like there's been an upheaval. You know, there's this HTMLX movement, a return to form. of multi-page apps, as they call them now. Used to just be how you rebuilt things versus single-page apps and multi-page apps, server-side rendering. NPA, wow. Full-stack frameworks, I think, are more interesting to the JavaScript community than they ever have been. But besides from that, I mean, it's kind of been this.

It's been more steady in the last probably five years than it was. I wonder if that's because of entrenchment, though. Like, it is... Oh, for sure. It's just too hard. there's too much sunk costs in the world of React and next to move away from it easily, right? There's too much investment into the infrastructure, the usage of it. I was thinking about this recently with Git.

And, you know, you make any piece of software, almost everything thinks you're using GitHub to host it. Like, it's going to be there. And then you're going to have actions. And so CI begins with, you know, actions files essentially. you know, that's where your CI begins if you're starting fresh. And then everything's as soon to be around Git and GitHub. And I love Git. I think Git's great.

But there, I just saw our friends over at Fall through talking about the newest thing. And I'm not even sure what it's called, but there's a new thing in town to check out. To jih Tjitsu. What's it called? Jiu-jitsu. There you go. Which I'm not even versed in, but I'm just thinking like, how in the world do you even, how does the world move a away from at this point get it's too entrenched all you can do is really improve it you know

maybe you have some people try and use me the five to 10 to 20 percenters you're going to try and use something different but you're just going against the current and it's it's just more challenging until it's not I guess well slowly and then all at once that's what they say That's true. Slowly and then quickly. Slow them fast. That's right. That's how you get rich.

That's how you get poor. That's how you get entrenched. That's how you get disrupted. So fast it is. Things happen in one fell swoop, as they say. You know, that's what I heard. So many swoops. So Meteor.

This is on your list, Meteor? Well, Angular, I just saw on a website. Okay. But Meteor was on my list. Yeah. Meteor. Yeah. You know, is that how?

you spell the word Meteor? I don't even know. M-E-E-O-R, Meteor. That's how you spell meteor? That's what you're talking about something that has more meat in it than something else. It's meteor. Meteor.

That's why I kept calling it Meteor, because I didn't want to accidentally say meteor, like, let's talk about something with more depth to it. Right. Let's get some meat on these bones in the air. Right. Let's get these meteor out here. You've got another one you want to, we can loop. And I think it's been long enough.

If we can loop back to Quicksilver, it's going to feel fresh. I think it'll be fresh. Yeah, the pain is a little less fresh. The pain of our loss is, yeah, time heals all wounds. I'll give it another try. Let's talk Quicksilver. People want to hear it. Take two.

Here we go. Okay. All right. Quicksilver, if you're not familiar with this, is a software from your 2003 long time ago. Okay. That's the beginning of the Internet, essentially. It's not actually the beginning of the Internet, but it's pretty close to it. It's not at all.

It's about 15 years after the beginning, maybe more. Depends on who you ask. But Quicksilver was a app launcher for Mac. At that time, OS 10, not Mac OS. This is how OSX. As a lot of people call it, OSX. OSX, yes, unless you're a Mac geek that likes Gab. That was a good one.

Got lost in that one. You just sideline yourself with a stupid thing. Reference. Yeah, a little Mac geek going on there. It's 2003. You wrote a Mac OS 10, probably like lion or leopard or some sort of a cat. It was a big cat. Yes.

Who the heck knows which one it was? It was a kitty cat now. That's right. And Quicksilver was launching your stuff, man. You wanted to launch things and you would go and you would go to your app directory. Or you would go to your dock bar and you would click the button for your, your, your, your, your app. You see a bounce,

you'd wait for it, and that was cool. No, that was not cool. You don't bounce forever. No, that's not cool. You had to do command space to conjure this new thing called a HUD,

a heads-up display, and it would give you the ability to conjure these things to happen. Apps to launch, math to be done, terminals to be opened, finder windows to be discovered, is what Quickswell

gave the world. So many things. So many things. It was made in 2003 by a felon name Nicholas Ditkoff, made in 2003, released several versions of it, always seemed to be in beta, basically in beta for 10 years. But it was the darling. It was what launched literally the ability to have these launch bars, these launch apps to do this. And it didn't win. though, it only led to innovation being done by Apple, absorbing it or our friends over at launch bar, yeah, absorbing it, copying it. Yeah, absorbing. I guess it's probably not the truth. Copying the features, breaking them into the operating system. First Mover Advantage did not work out for them. Launchbar, Alfred, Raycast, that's what I use. Now, I did use, I did use Alfred. I'm still. still a semi happy how would i be i'm not sure if i'm happy or not i guess less than happy because

i spent my money and not using the value anymore uh owner of a lifetime license of alfred i'll never use it again just saying just saying if you want to i'll give it to you when you back i mean i just don't think so i don't never say never though my buddy justin told me that but you know i don't see it happening okay i don't see it happening okay i don't see it happening What about Quicksilver? Are you ever going to go back to Quicksilver? I don't even know where to go. Where would I find Quicksover these days?

I think it's still a thing, but I have no idea. I will say this. Quicksilver was the coolest. I mean, I'm not going to say I bought a Mac because of it, but it was certainly in the calculus. I was like, I want a Mac because I want to use Quicksilver. It was minimally attractive. you know like it was aesthetically pleasing but it was also minimal almost invisible at times

i mean it's obviously invisible when you don't invoke it but it had a cool kind of purplish translucent vibe to it and then the combination of things you could do like the actions you could take beyond just you know if it was just an app launcher then i don't think it would have been quite as popular but it had this like extensibility extensibility and like combine ability that made it really powerful and you could like take a file you know find a file pass it to a thing have it output something transmogrify it i don't know capital case it and then spit it back out the other side like and so the power users and the nerds they would like show you how many cool stuff you could do with

quicksilver and that's why i wanted to run it now that being said i only ever used it basically for math and for app launching which you know to this day is what i use all my app launchers for which is why i'm a spotlight user does both those things just find fine. But I wanted the power. I wanted the Quicksilver power. And so your story is basically competition. Why didn't it get better? Why didn't it get competed? Why didn't they win? I think it just died in the vine. I think it just got there. I'm not in beta. It seemed to not move. And so when something seems to not move and it says beta, you kind of think, well, maybe it's not moving.

Maybe there's no true maintenance behind this thing. And so your appreciation and belief in something kind of wanes. Launch bar comes around, seems to be newer, seems to be fresher, more magnative feeling. Same thing I think with Alfred. Alfred is still amazing software. No offense to Alfred whatsoever. I'm not going to use it anymore because, well, I moved on. but I suppose if Raycast died,

I'd probably fall back on my free lifetime license. Anyways, we'll see. So then you could use it again. Raycast, don't die. Well, Pitchsilver was open source, though, and these other ones aren't. Yeah, I mean, I guess. Does that mean anything to you?

Does that not sell you on it more or make you want to support it or use it? I think in the altruistic terms of open source, of course, but I'm not. not going to personally maintain it. So the fact that it is or is not doesn't personally matter to me because I'm not doing the maintenance of it. And I'm not going to care enough to step in. It's not a problem I want to solve. That's why I'm thankful for Raycast. They've done a great job. I think Raycast is by far, they got a great free version of it. You can pay to use it as well.

And it's, I think it's the best version of an app launcher. They've got a lot of cool stuff in there and obviously they even have I think it's like what is it called I don't even use it too often but here and here and there they got Raycast AI a whole chat window and I believe it ships free with all the free models

now if you actually have Raycast AI I believe you can pay to use other models you can swap models you can save things I think they could do have they could have done and should still potentially do a better job of that chat app like it lives in Raycast the launcher so arguably

potentially the best thing they've built a unified chat app for Mac that's Mac native is buried in somewhere you wouldn't expect yeah it's like you turn over that rock boom gold what's what's up with that why is the gold under the rock

there belongs in my pocket or my on the shelf where you can see it yeah I want to see the gold not don't put on the rock so i don't know gold's pretty valuable and raycast is venture backed they could fail as a company for those reasons i don't think they will in fact i haven't talked to them in a while

a lot of those meteor users didn't think they were going to fail either that's true man that's true not that you all failed but you know what i mean yes i did find quicksilver though on github so it is naturally github dot com slash quicksilver slash quicksover Recent commits, recent activity? Anything going on over there?

This is a bot. So I don't know for sure. 5,909 commits total. One yesterday from TransEffects integration bot. So I'm not sure about that one in particular. Although on the 23rd of October, there was a merge pull request, Port Request 3,080,

which was from the branch Quicksilver copy configuration build step. If you got to use Quicksilver, there it is. It's there for you waiting. And it's open source. If you're listening to this and you do use Quicksilver to this day, let us know in the comments.

We want to hear from you. Yes. Did you move it all? Did you come back? Apache 2 AV2 Are you still running Mac OS Lion

Sorry OS 10 Lion OS 10 yeah 76 issues two poor requests open Not that bad It seems to be tended

There's not like a thousand issues for example Are you wishing you took it off your dead list now No it's still dead No it's still dead It's still dead Oh you guys are working on this I can't say that That's just rude. I'm sorry for being rude.

It's just good podcast nature to say that, okay, don't, don't. If I was standing next to you in the hallway track of a great conference, I wouldn't be that rude. It's dead to me. I'm not going to use it. Can I come back? Man, absolutely. Give it a try. Raise some money.

That's the way you get to prosper is raise some cash. Sounds like that's the way that you die. Maybe. Well, the last time I checked, there's only one of me, only one of you. I'd like to have more than one of me because the world expects so much from me. I can't possibly do it all. but let's be honest that's probably a good thing there's just one of you and one of me but what if there was another version of you one that already knows your projects your notes your team's

quirks and can actually finish the work for you well that sounds like more of me more of me time that's what notion's new AI agent feels like i've been using notion yeah for a while but the new agent is revolutionary it's built right into notion your docs your notes your projects all in one connected space that just works, it's seamless, it's flexible, and you can actually have fun using it. But here's the crazy part. Your Notion agent doesn't just help you with work. It finishes it. It can do anything you can do in Notion. Write pages, organized databases, summarize projects, connect with Slack or Google Drive. He could even clean up post-medit notes and assign tasks. It plans. It executes. And if something breaks, it just tries again. Basically,

it's like delegating to another version of you that already knows how you think. Teams at Open AI, Ramp, and Versel, they're all using Notion Agent to send less email, cancel, more meetings, and get more done. And now you can too. Try Notion today. Now with Notion Agent at Notion.com slash changelot. That's all lowercase. Again, Notion.com slash changelot to try your new AIT teammate today and support our show while you're at it. Notion, check them out.

Notion.com slash change log. Speaking of, how about RethinkDB? Oh, gosh, man. Remember that's from the past? Slava, Akmachek. That's right. Achmachette. That's right.

Which are where you say it. I'm going to say it's right. They're both right. Rethink was a very interesting. interesting database, a scalable NoSQL, back in the craze of NoSQL, database with a declarative query language for real-time apps launched in 2009, was active for probably until 2016. The company actually declared bankruptcy in 2016. The core team was disbanded. The repo was archived. I mean, this one's dead, dead. so dead they did inspire some community community forks

such as Elephant DB Rethink DB you'll go back and find that one in our archives of course we've had Lava Akmachad on the show I think probably at the beginning of Rethink DB and I think at the end of R rethink DB At least two

I'm thinking two times during its heyday and one potentially on its way day by Sia Oh, I like that. It's a wayday. The heyday and the way day? That's right.

You're going to go on your way. I see you. You're on your way now. Now, why did I rethink DB fail? I would only speculate at this point. I really don't know. My speculation, and this is just speculation. I just think they couldn't capture market share.

I think MongoDB was just too dominant in the no-sequel database department of the world. And rethink just couldn't get that. there. But didn't they write? I mean, now we're going deep into my brain archives because I'm starting to remember. Didn't they actually even write up a thing why we think DB failed? And didn't we actually do an episode, maybe even called why rethink DB failed? I was starting to like remember something like this. Check out our last episode with Rethink TV, what was called. Yeah. I'm scouring the internet right now for information. I think the long and the short of it is like no product market fit. I mean, that's what that's what the startup guy would say. They had some design choices

that were odd. I think they, because they had their own language. This is why when the FondaDB people came on the show, and in fact, I think FondaDB also at this point, can we consider that one dead? I'm not sure, but I haven't heard about it in a long time. They also created their own query language. And I remember saying, like, are you sure you guys want to do that? Because it's very difficult to get people to just use your query language. Like, can you you have a B sequel alike. That means that Mongo did it. So, I mean, they're all kind of following the Mongo playbook.

But Mongo really did succeed where so many others failed. Hmm. If this is true, Founder Slava Opichette said that there were two main problems. They picked a terrible market, and then they optimize the product for the wrong metrics of goodness. So they optimized for correctness, simplicity, and consistency. which are all great engineering goals, but those were not what the market valued. This is also in a day when a lot of things were happening on ABOS.

A lot of databases were popping up. So we're now past a lot of this. You had cockroach DB, you had a lot of databases come out of seemingly nowhere to solve problems. Some of them open source, some of them not. I would say the ones who were not, just didn't have a chance.

And then ultimately it came down to just competition at ABS and adoption elsewhere. And there was a lot of motion around databases. And so you had a lot of choice. Yeah, there was a thriving market of offerings. Now we just want Postgres, right? Postgres. Postgres for life, man. Why not? You know, why would you choose anything else than Postgres?

I just don't know. They were eventually acquired by the Linux Foundation, the CNCF, a few months after the shutdown in 2016, and it continues to be an open source project to this day, but I don't know who's using it. I don't know what's happening. Doesn't everything continue to be an open source project to this day, though? I mean, it's not like the source goes away. Otherwise, it's like you could say that about anything that's dead. Is this, I want to know if this is claw trying to get into my good graces, considering what I just said a little bit of go about. amp at the very end it says why is that fun fact i see one of the discussions mentioned an episode

from the changelog about rethink db you folks have quite the archive come on claude it told you that it's what said do you have that in your cloud md like by the way i host the change log podcast we have quite the archive i think it knows it knows it knows who i am yeah it's it's definitely pandering to me because it's like, yo, great job. That is pandering. But it worked. Did it work? You do prefer a Claude now to AMP.

So fauna.com actually doesn't go anywhere, which was the location of FaunaDB. F-A-U-N-A dot com. It's either my block list, D&S whole, or it's dead. Mine redirected the Fauna Robotics, which is a different company. Yeah, I'm using it so far. So far, so mine don't redirect, man. Safari does its own thing, okay? It really does.

Let me go into Chrome. What does Chrome do? Yeah, phonadDB.org is what you're looking for. Ah, okay. It's a strongly consistent OLTV database with a hybrid, blah, blah, blah, blah. Open source project is still very early stage. Yeah, you're probably looking at... It used to be.com.

Well, you're probably talking about the company, and I'm talking about the open source, and the company might be gone, but the project's still open source because they all are, right? FawnoDB last commit to the FondiB repo was six months ago. Oh, and the only commit was all six months ago.

So I think they like open sourced it and moved on. Yeah, they're like, listen, crunch the history, put it out there, cash the, no, don't cash the check. That'll bounce and get out of here. Just get out of here. It's over. We didn't do it.

That's right. I mean, they had some really good ambition, though. I mean, I remember that conversation. Really smart guy. The CTO was, I recall, no offense to him, but I recall him just being a little just monotone. Monotone, he was. Right? Very monotone.

Yeah. And I think he left months after our conversation. I don't know. Some things are meant to live and some things are meant to die. that's very final if we keep going i just keep making stuff up okay i'll just keep making it up well should we keep going or should we call it we do have a couple things uh just quick mentions icq oh gosh remember icq oh yeah let's do a little a little leave it list leave it list yeah like icq is cool man for sure and you are cool if you had a low icq number yeah i don't know

You used to be able to buy the numbers off of eBay and stuff, too. Did you know that? Probably still can. Probably can. I was not that cool. I came way late to ICQ. In fact, I got, I used it because someone made me use it, you know? Sometimes people are talking, they're like, yeah, we use this.

I'm like, dang it, I have to install a new app. But I did have, um, there was a open source project that actually combined a bunch of chat messengers, of which ICQ was one, AIM, AIM, um, others. I think it was called pigeon Yeah, I recall pigeon Yeah, our game G-A-I-M game It was a bird

There was a bird one Is it the pigeon one you think? Yeah, pigeon was a bird It also means like it's like a It's spelled not like the bird But like the language feature I think a pigeon language Is like a language that like multiple people

Use like as a crossover Let me Google that instead of just talking out my butt While you're doing that, there's a Reddit post one year ago. So this is actually 28 years, not 27 as I read it. So it says after 27 years, ICQ is officially shutting down today. Yeah. And of an era for one of the first messaging apps. So 20 years ago.

Okay, so Pigeon at P-I-D-G-I-N.I-M also dead. Last modified in 2020. is a chat program which lets you log into account on multiple chat networks simultaneously XMPP, IRC, bonjour,

Simple, Silk, SEPFER. I mean, tons of these I haven't even heard of. Same time. I thought there was an ICQ. Oh, and then that's a Windows,

Linux, and other units like client. On MacOS, try ADM. Do you remember ADM? That's what I was talking about. Yeah, the pigeon.

I was thinking 80. That's the bird, ADM. Yeah, I use that one. Yep, Jabber. Oh, yeah. Google Talk. Remember G-Talk? Yeah.

Google Polly also killed G-Talk. There's still some chat up in there. Adium is also open source. G-chat. Let's see. Latest release of ADM runs on MacOSX, MacOS 10. 10.7.5 are newer.

So this is also dead. Man. All this dead stuff. But, I mean, these guys, it's because, it's because, you know, this audience they serve is gone. I mean, who needs to connect to these different chat apps nowadays? Nobody. Last commit here is like four years ago. So we're finding all kinds of dead projects as we just talk.

To go back to the word pigeon, P-I-D-G-I-N is a grammatical. a simplified form of a contact language that develops between two or more groups of people that do not have a language in common. That's a great name then for a program that does what it did. Yeah. And so if you speak, you know, Swahili and I speak English and we don't have a crossover language, we would develop between our people groups this third simpler language. So we could actually communicate. We call that a pigeon language. So interesting. Very interesting. Very interesting. Interesting. So ICQ was rad.

ICQ was gone. Skype was cool for a minute. Dude, Skype was crucial. It really was. A lot of good days on Skype. And now it's gone. I assume. Microsoft still ship new versions of Skype.

It's dead, man. Teams, long with teams. It's irrelevant. Oh, yeah. I would never use teams personally. What are non-Microsoft people using? I guess Discord for voice. It's probably Discord at this point.

even real time I guess Zoom won that for a while there was it was Skype you would Skype somebody you would never zoom somebody right then we would

WebEx oh gosh oh almost spliced by the screen this now dude yeah it was a bad situation I almost it was almost a situation here

yeah like you say WebEx and that's like worse than Rochambo you know like pick once It's like, yeah, WebEx is just nasty, nasty, man. You know, I do miss the fact that is, is, like, gosh, I'm just like brain farting, not ICQ, IRC, is IRC is still a thing?

Yeah, I mean, it's as niches ever. I think it had a moment when people were interested in it, but then like Free Node freaked out. I can't remember what happened with Free Node, but like people that were running FreeNode end up being weirdos or something, somebody can fill us back in on that. and IRC just never had a chance in that way. That's a shame because, like, there's a lot of people who found their love for the thing they do on a mail list or some sort of, what were the original, like, chat rooms called?

They were like PDP hubs or something like that or, like, I don't know what they were called. I'm not even from that era, but, like, I kind of missed the days I didn't take a part in it away. And just one was simpler, you know, Like, now everything's commercialized. Like, if I can't make money doing this, it doesn't belong, you know? And that's just kind of sad, man.

You know, it really is. I think you should scratch your own inches. That's just, you know, I'm just scratching itches. I got. That's all. You know, it's a pretty wild world up there these days. You know, one thing I was taking note of when I was looking at Wikipedia for Quicksilver was how cool that logo was. man that's what made quicksilver cool it had a lot of cool things initially yeah the cool

hood the cool logo the colors the new thing it just doesn't work out sometimes and if you go to meteors that's how I said it too a meteor or meteor software on YouTube they're thriving like one month ago 135 views seriously I mean four months ago, three X faster builds, 409 views. They're thriving on there. They're just busting it up.

Putting their content out there. So should I take it back? No, they're dead, man. They're dead. That was me being politely facetious. You know what I think is dead?

I think this episode is dead. You know, folks, I'm just really sad for you because the version one, was better perfect software it was man it was it was good stuff you know and i think we like we did a good job with this episode but i feel like we kind of botched it well we botched it when we didn't hit the record button you know we the rest of the time we've been kind of just but gradually here just podcastings like we got to be here now you know we've just kind of been coping yeah it's been hard

it's been so i guess you know sorry but also you're welcome yeah you know it is what it is as they say in closing i do want to say one thing okay off the you know off the the the thread we're in there but i did mention amp and i do want to say that amp is free you see this jared amp code dot com i did see this this is interesting amp is free but free as in how free is in you're the product again okay they're going to advertise to you he just went straight backwards on this thing you're the product again yeah they're going to sell your i That being said, though, I don't know what they're tracking, so I can't say that for sure. But it is the first that I'm aware of where you can use a, I've said it before, my favorite AI agent, coding agent for free.

And I've hit limits with it. So I think it's a couple hours. I don't know what the actual limit is, but after a bit, they're like, listen, we've only got six advertisers. You've seen them all. And the way it works is they show you ads. In the terminal, right? Right above, so you have your prompt area, then you have the chat area that's been what's been going by. And right between those two perfectly sandwiched, I think they've done a great job with the UI on this too.

Is this subtle text-based ad? It's not even a bother, honestly. And I've actually enjoyed them. I'm like, oh, sweet. They're doing that. Cool. Nice. I find myself actually want to see the ads.

I want to see the ads. Doesn't bother me. I mean, you're getting what you. You're opting into this free thing with like it's all straightforward the way it works, right? So if you need to use it for free and you're okay with that supported, like I think it's a great option. So I would say there's no shame in that game whatsoever, you know? If you wanted to deep think for you, well, ask nicely, okay? Because it's probably going to do it.

It's like there ain't no thinking here. We just do around here. If the whole time it's deep-sinking, could it show you, like, a video ad? Like, that would be kind of cool. Like, turn it into Askinema style, like, in your terminal. That would be sick. I would watch those. Here's Star Wars.

Asky Star Wars. No, not Star Wars. That's not an ad. It has to be like, like, Don Soap or something. Even worse. All they need to do is take typical advertisements, like TV commercials, and they need to turn them into Askinema with some sort of software program. and feed those into your terminal

that'd be sweet there's there's a dog that hunts there I think maybe but I don't know I should talk to our friends of sourcecraft and at very least get a changelag ad up in there you know like hey

while you're sitting here waiting for this thing to go why don't you listen to the change log dudes so my prescription though for people is this is like don't sleep on this free it doesn't have to be your daily driver but what about free docs who wants some free docs

because this thing would just wind up and do whatever you want for a couple hours unfettered every day so you basically have two to three hours per day

of amp code that you can just use it still has the Oracle so as everything else that it has it's nothing different about it that I can tell it seems just as smart

just as able and get yourself some free documentation maybe some free thinking some deep thinking have to write some tests for you stuff you don't really want to do

and maybe you're not going to do maybe do a code review for you every day for free you're wasting it it's like free labor just sitting there scoop it up take it all right well thank you for hanging out with us

yes friends thank you so much remind me is this our spooky episode spooky man this was spooky was it a little spooky while you're acting a little spooky there you're like I got a little hand it dead it's dead no I did get it I was just trying to like lean into it okay trying to play

a role here you know do my job you get the six cents you know I see dead projects up in there that's right oh that got probably cut before we start to hit record yeah you might have it done let's say goodbye I think you did say it twice though that's cool though oh good enjoy your Halloween eat lots of candy

brush your teeth and support of the source like your friends my friends stay spooky oh my gosh we recorded about 48 minutes

of absolute gold Jared and I were having a ball we were just really in a good groove riffing having fun and then Jared realized that we did not push record yeah we've been doing this for a long time

but still yet somehow some way we didn't push the button, and that's not cool. Now, I do believe that Riverside could have saved us. Hear me out. If you're in a Riverside session where you normally record for a long period of time and you're talking, and the record button has not been pressed,

you probably should change the interface or do something to let people know. More clarity. The whole point of Riverside is to record, and we laid down gold, and you missed it. And we did too because, hey, that's how it works. Anyways, it's, it's Halloween. I gotta go. We got costumes. We got crazy. It's literally Halloween right now. I'm leaving. I'm going to be spooky. Go out with my kids. Have some fun. And you should too. Stay spooky y'all. We love you. Into your Halloween. Thank you.