The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - What do we want from a web browser? (Friends)

Episode Date: September 15, 2023

A hoy hoy! Our old friend Nick Nisi does his best to bring up TypeScript, Vim & Tmux as many times as possible while we discuss a new batch of web browsers, justify why we like the ones we do & try to figure out what it'd take to disrupt the status quo of Big Browser.

Welcome to Changelogin' Friends, a weekly talk show about the NVIDIA Shield. Big thanks to our partners for helping us bring you the best developer pods each and every week. Fastly.com, Fly2IO, and Typesense.org. Okay, let's talk. We have like the same glasses, Nick. Oh yeah. Yeah, they look very similar. Are they Nike? They are. Oh my goodness. They're the they are oh my goodness they're the same glasses literally have the same glasses what are the odds it's that on the on the little thingy right there oh my goodness yeah they look the same i really only need these to stare at a computer my wife likes the whole um you know clark kent aspect of me i get to be this adam and then that adam with contacts in your superman at home that's

right i go into my uh phone booth and out i come clark kent speaking of phone booths i watched back to the future part two with my kids this week i did too did you really i did it was on one of the that's so weird you guys have the same glasses and we watch the same movies it was on on like whatever disney tv thing that they had okay we actually chose to i thought well it's about time for them to have the back to the future trilogy in their in their history so we went one and then we watched two and two is a different experience now because you know 2015 when i was when i first watched it i was probably it was the future yeah I was probably 10 years old it was probably 1992 I don't know when it came out but you know yeah it

was casting forward now it's casting back and so my kids didn't like it as much as I did when I was a kid because I was so excited about the things that might be and they're all like this isn't accurate we don't have any of this stuff you know right but one thing they did have the reason why I said speaking of, is because they did go into a phone booth to make a call. And so they totally missed smartphones in terms of predictions. They still had

a phone booth that was used for calling people, which is a thing of the past. Yeah, aside from the hoverboard was the only really futuristic true prediction. And the self-lacing shoes, those are cool. Yeah. That's because it was a product placement.

There was so much product placement in that movie. Did you notice, Nick? Yeah, just so much. Yeah, just so much. Like, I'm going to have a Pepsi. You know where 1640 Riverside is? Are you going to order something, kid? Uh, yeah.

Give me a tab. Tab? I can't give you a tab unless you order something. All right, give me a Pepsi free. If you want a Pepsi, pal, You're going to pay for it. It's like... Another thing you don't notice as a kid is how much product placement there was. I feel like they're more subtle with product placements now.

Maybe not. I don't watch too many popcorn movies. They are a little subtle. In some cases, they're heavy-handed. I imagine the MCU is heavy-handed with it. They're hit and miss with that, but the thing I just constantly feel like I'm just hit over the head with are all of the amazing shows on Apple TV. They're amazing shows, but it's just like iMac over here, iPhone right here.

Oh, it's like Apple here? It's just non-stop, yeah. Is it really? I didn't notice that. Oh, yeah. That's funny did you watch the uh back to the future part two with the the lens of the dad being replaced i did okay i appreciate you gave me that lens because i totally notice it i don't know if you've heard this nick but there was like contract disputes between crispin glover and the people and so he

wasn't actually in the movie it It's somebody else upside down. They put him upside down so you'd never notice. And of course, he's also in clips because they go back to 1985 and 55. And that's like previous footage, you know? So he's in it in those ways. But yeah, that was cool. And then I told my kids afterwards, and they're like, wow. I was like, yeah, I'm smart.

I knew that. I'm smart. Mr, I'm smart. I knew that. I'm smart. Mr. Stachowiak told me that. That's right. On Friends, on this show. That's right. With Matt. Anyways, phone booths.

They missed it. Yeah, right. Wow. Well, let's talk web browsers, shall we? Let's do it. Let's do it. We have our old friend, Nick Nisi, the JS Party animal himself.

Hold on a second. Your browser's not letting you record. I'm in ARC. Oh, God. Recording in ARC? Yeah. Dude, that's risky business. Actually, I did it all day yesterday, so I'm also risky business.

We need to have that recorded. That would have been a good clip. As we talk about browsers. His local is still going. We can probably use this. My local is going. Ask Nick Neesey to refresh the page. Nick Neesey, refresh the page.

Oh, I just told him. I didn't ask him. Sorry about that. I declared it. He's gone. He's back. Hello. What do you think happened here? That's a great question. I don't want it to happen again. Hello. What do you think happened here? That's a great question.

I don't want it to happen again. No. Did ARC say anything? I think I know what happened, actually. Okay. Debug this. I clicked a link. Well, first off, when I opened ARC, I clicked the link from the calendar to go into this.

And ARC does this happy little thing called a mini-Arc, or a little Arc or something. Right. I couldn't figure out how to work that. Yeah. What is that? It was not the real Arc. When you open it, it's like, oh, here's a preview window.

So if you're doing something quick, you can just do that and close it, and it's gone. OK. And so I was actually having this whole thing loaded in there. But then I clicked another link to go rubber stamp a PR real quick before we started. And it was like, oh, I should take over that little arc because I'm the new link. I see. But Riverside was like, uh-uh, I'm recording.

You have to, you know, the on exit or whatever handler. Too fancy. Yeah. Too tricky. Too clever by far. Uh-uh, I'm recording. I love the inner voice of these browsers. Uh- far. I'm recording. I love the inner voice of these browsers. I'm recording.

Do you always personify software, Nick? Is that a thing you do? I do. It's my only friend. I personify a lot of things, honestly. That's hilarious. I'm recording. Well, you're still recording locally though, Nick, right?

The whole time? Absolutely. Always be recording. This is going in recording locally though, Nick, right? The whole time? Absolutely Always be recording This is going in the show then Because this is great This is browser discussions Like 101, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah

A new browser Trying to be useful Trying to be different Trying to be I don't know what it's trying to be Little It's trying to have a little preview window Ends up screwing something up for you

So One thing i've noticed so by the way we've been using different browsers we've been kind of talking about different browsers some of them that nick put in i didn't use because i'm not going to sign up for your paywall i'm sorry like i was like yeah i'll try these and i actually false started on both of them um which we can talk about but what you realize is just how like used to a specific tool. Okay, I say you realize. What I realized is how much I'm just used to my workflows. And different is sometimes better, but in most cases I'm just like,

nah, I just don't like it. I just don't like different. And so I'm kind of becoming crotchety, I think. Definitely becoming crotchety. I resonate with that, Jared. We actually debated because we're like, we're going to be too similar, I think, in our likes and dislikes for browsers

than Nick might be, because I think he's just generally more adventurous with software. Yeah. At least in this regard. Probably true. That's why you got the invite, Nick, by the way. If you're wondering why we invited Nick Nisi,

our great friend from JS Party, the TS Party animal himself, it's because he is adventurous with software and tools, and he's always trying new stuff. So we thought you'd be a great person to talk about web browsers. Sorry, Adam, I cut you off. Keep going. Oh, just to say that I resonate that I think that I've got my own

workflows and simplicity with Safari that I don't think it's the best browser, but it's the best browser for me. I think it's got a lot of pros, but it's also got several cons. I'll often go to a website in particular and it's like, well, this site doesn't work. Well, I immediately think, I think it's got a lot of pros, but it's also got several cons. I'll often go to a website in particular and it's like, well, this site doesn't work. Well, I immediately think, okay,

it's a Safari issue because they're just generally I even hate to say this, they're kind of behind in a way, like where Chrome and those things tend to lead with standards in some way, and WebKit's kind of behind. Maybe I'm wrong. Am I wrong, Nick? I've got words to say here. Okay, let Nick talk. He's just dying to say it. Yeah, get into it.

He's got his hat shut out. He's going to wag some weeds or something like that. Take us through the jungle. What's the situation? Well, this morning, actually, in my work Slack, I was sharing some of the browsers that I shared with you. And they're paywalled and all that. And I did try them all, and I recommended not actually trying them. But one of them is just amazing from a design perspective. Anyway, somebody was saying that they use Firefox.

And they're like, oh, if you want this thing that this browser does, just use this plugin for Firefox. And then somebody else asked, what happened to the Chrome versus Firefox war that was going on? And I immediately jumped in and said, Firefox lost when they laid off their whole development team and decided to make a vpn instead yeah they did kind of lose a thread there didn't they like they did like they were on top of things you know i remember way back like years ago when what was

css grid came out and they were like partnering with Wes boss to like get course material out for free on like how to use it properly. And here's all these amazing dev tool things that the Firefox dev tools can do and all of that. And then all of a sudden it's like 2022 and we're all waiting around. Like we can use container queries as soon as Firefox ships them. And they're like last and Safari way up top. They're great.

They're done. But everybody, you know we're just waiting for that last horse not to foreshadow one of the browsers we're going to talk about but to cross that finish line oh well that makes me think of horse js which i won't bring up because horse js apparently seems to be dead as a a casualty of the hostile takeover of twitter.com horse js i think is dead at this point but maybe if any listener out there knows horse js on a new social network hook us up because that's my favorite was my favorite twitter account for a long time but and also while we're punning if nick sounds horse it's because he is recovering he's recovering from an illness it was a an airborne virus that he picked up called the typescript exodus

he couldn't it made him physically ill seeing all these typescript bashers on the interwebs no just kidding nick yeah i haven't been replying to anyone, but I've just been hoarse yelling at my phone the entire time. What are you talking about? So those of you who are changelog-only listeners and don't partake of the JS party, Nick and I have a dramatic foil that I invented, probably me, because he's such a TypeScript fan

that I became the Typecript anti-fan of course and just consistently troll him for years now about typescript having no knowledge very little knowledge of the thing i don't use it because i can't because i'm against it and one of my predictions was that the typescript backlash would happen every lash has a backlash okay and typescript will have its day and i'll be here waiting i'll have a whiplash not actually because of anything about typescript because this is just the cycle of software is like the rise and fall and we can't wait for those blog posts of the switch to typescript and then the inevitable switch off of TypeScript.

It's just going to happen. And my prediction came true with the loudest voice in many communities, the blog of DHH last week. So not our topic for today. Some random guy. Nick's favorite person. Not our topic for today, but just a funny troll. So I got my day in the sun is right now, so I have to rub it in.

But Nick actually contracted, unfortunately, COVID last week while he was on vacation. So that's the actual reason why his voice is a bit hoarse today. So bear with us. But we're here to talk about web browsers, and Nick loves trying new tools. A great episode, actually, of JS Party, if you want to dip your toe in the water is when k-ball went through your toolbox nick needs his toolbox i can't remember the name of that episode but it's like a deep dive into all of next tools and it's just amazing all the stuff that you use and try and tweak and can recommend we can all learn a lot from you so yeah we want to do a show about web browsers because there's a lot, it seems like

there's a new kind of breed of browsers coming up, probably led by the Arc browser, which wasn't like a private waitlist, only made it for a long time, but has since become publicly available and has some cool ideas in it and just a different way of doing things that's quite dramatic, maybe too dramatic for me if I foreshadow the conversation a little bit. But we thought, I started thinking, what do you want from a web browser? Why do we make these decisions, et cetera? And we thought that would be a good conversational topic. And so we invited Nick on.

We've all been trying different browsers that we probably wouldn't try otherwise and thought we'd discuss what do we actually want out of a web browser what priorities do we have because it seems like everybody's a little bit different so there's your setup nick you want to kick off and just maybe give a little bit of your daily browsing use and then maybe what you've been up to and what you're thinking yeah absolutely so i just like adam am a devout safari fan i really like Safari. Oh my gosh! No way. This is an upset. So, we're three Safari users here.

This is going to be the worst conversation of all time, as our listeners are all against us. And we praise Safari, the three of us together. Sorry, go ahead. No, we will have some, because I have to caveat it, that for the past couple of months

i have actually been using arc but safari is my true home i'm just not brave enough to install the latest beta of mac os to get hold of the new safari features but right possibly today it might be announced when that's coming out that's right it is an apple announcement today as we record yeah yeah you're always the one that's on the edge with Mac OS, too. That's right. Me, I just finally got to Ventura. What is it lately? What is the latest one?

I have lost track of the name. I think it's Ventura. Is it Ventura? Yeah, it took me a little while to get there. Yeah, Ventura. Yeah, Ventura. 13.5 is Ventura. Yeah.

Whatever one was previous to this, it's Monterey. I was stuck there for a bit because I just couldn't, I mean, when you do production, you kind of have to lag a little bit because there's always bugs in software, as we know. Yep. And so we just can't really handle that in production flows because it's not my test machine.

It's a production machine in most cases. Absolutely. Same. And for me i the thing i use to record which does has have some pretty deep like internal so it always breaks with every update is uh audio hijack and all of the rogue amoeba products they have to install this this ace thing that can get into the sound and all of that and so they're almost always broken so as soon as they say hey our stuff is good then good, then I'm like, all right, let's go. Because everything else is fine. Browsers work,

everything else works. Safari works. So Safari is your daily driver, though. I can't believe this. I was not expecting this, that Safari, I thought you'd be like the person that was against Safari. Okay, what makes you for Safari? A couple couple of things it's not chrome which is like a big plus okay uh it syncs seamlessly with my phone which is forced to run safari no matter what no matter what browser you install right it's running safari it's fast doesn't take up my battery and uh you know it feels good to use because probably it's not chrome okay that's it that's the show we're done that's pretty much it i mean that's how i feel about safari as well it's not Chrome. Okay, that's it. That's the show. We're done. I mean, that's pretty much it. I mean, that's how I feel about Safari as well.

It's like, they kind of make you use it by force, right? Like when you use anything on your, and I'm an iPhone user. I'm sure both of you are as well based on what you just said. Jared, I know you are. You can't use anything else. Even if you install a different browser,

you're still using Safari. It's just paint. On your phone. On your phone, sorry. Yes, to clarify. The Safari rendering engine like it there's aspects of it that can be quite a bit different but the actual tech underneath whatever facade the firefox is there still a firefox ios app or does that go on now it's a good question there was a firefox mobile browser anyways there's chrome there's brave there's arc probably, maybe, I don't know.

Sort of. It's essentially just UX on top. Yeah. They're all Safari. The rendering engine, they're all just calling Safari calls on it. By fiat. Because Apple says so. None of them want to be, but they are. Yeah. Do I think that's the best

decision by Apple? No, probably not. But it does keep Safari relevant, I guess. Well, I wonder if it's really about, I mean, they couldn't really layer anything because of security. But I think it does really help the platform be more stable to some degree. Like if you had just a Wild Wild West

with any old web browser, bring your own rendering engine, it might cause some issues, right? Like I can imagine there being security concerns with that. For sure. Anything can be installed on iOS. And they're really about control from the lens of security, but I think it's also control to maintain the monopoly.

It's good for Apple. It's good for Apple for multiple reasons to do that. And so that's why they have that stranglehold. The side effect, Nick, is what you just said, is actually, even though that's unfortunate, it does provide enough of a market share for Safari that adds diversity at the OS, like the desktop OS. Because otherwise, Safari wouldn't matter enough at all

for anybody to care about it. And Chrome would basically have the monopoly there. Chromium would specifically, right? And at this point, that's all that matters too. Because Firefox does not have a mobile footprint. They have a desktop footprint still. I don't know what the percentage is today.

It shrunk from its heyday. It hit high watermark of like 20 30 it was like the percentage of global market share firefox high watermark was pretty high wasn't it maybe 15 i'm just going off memory yeah back in the heyday and then chrome just came and just decimated the landscape by being better i mean give it Google. Chrome got its market share the old-fashioned way. Well, they had one small advantage, which was Google.com. But the old-fashioned way, they earned it, right?

Yeah. I mean, Google Chrome came and took the market share because it was a better browser for many years. Yeah. And kudos to them for doing that. They also had great real estate because it was up in that corner of google.com for years as well download chrome and that's like billions and billions of dollars of free marketing but aside from that they also earned it yeah and firefox lost it that's kind of my story so maybe we don't have much diversity in daily drivers but we probably have maybe diversity in stories because I wasn't always a Safari user.

Well, and I don't use exclusively Safari. I have several browsers open right now, but day-to-day I have at least three. I'm a two-browser user. Just basically the dev and life are my two distinctions. And life also includes work, but dev is work as well. So I don't really't have some people have like a work browser and a life browser or at least a profile yeah my distinction is more like

development and everything else see and that's why i'm using arc right now because they have that great profile thing where you can just switch between you just swipe on the sidebar and you can go between like a work profile and a personal profile for example that's coming to safari in whatever the next version is i don't remember the name of it nice that'll be amazing and i have it on my ipad and it's really cool and the advantages of that are what uh i can be signed into one google account over here and another one over here and not have to use their weird little in yeah their little switcher thing I can have like one profile completely dedicated to shopping so that Amazon can follow me in that profile but right I mean they're probably following me in every profile but they got you I feel better and they connect those profiles as well yeah this is

a feature that's been in Firefox for a long time as well, right? Profiles. So Firefox has this feature. Safari has lacked it. I think Chrome also has this feature. Probably. You can sign in, I believe, in Chrome with your user. Like in the browser, not just like into the website, to the browser. They would love you to do that. Be signed in to your Google account the entire time you're browsing.

They would love that. Right now I'm person one in my Chrome. Person one. Not signed in. Not a unique feature of Arc, but a very cool feature that I don't know where it began. I know that it was a big deal when Firefox added it. I know Chrome's had it for a long time. Maybe not as slick.

The thing about Arc as a new browser is it's just slick. Everything it does is like thought through with a design aspect that is very appreciative which honestly is why I don't use Firefox these days is I just,

I'm sorry y'all. I appreciate all of the years of effort. I just find it to be unpalatable to my eyes. I just think it's ugly and I just don't like to open,

I just don't like to launch the app. I love the icon. Yeah. The Firefox icon. it's so cool yeah it's had its day but as a firefox user for many years i was like and i was like get firefox.com guy like tell your parents tell your friends quit using an ie get firefox so i was a converter oh yes yeah same me too jared that's crazy like i was all converters yeah well I was a diehard get Firefox way back in the day.

I was really into this grassroots movement of better browser, tabs even. Tabs were the bomb. All the plugins, down them all. I used to download a lot of stuff back in those days. I had to download them all. That was a lot of fun. StumbleUpon? StumbleUpon, yeah. Do you guys have StumbleUpon extension where you hit the button it sends you to a new website yeah over and over

again that was amazing back in college i was so bored firefox standalone that i put on a flash drive yes firefox standalone and plug it into like school computers like i'm not using this thing i'm using firefox standalone i never did that so here's what happened with me in firefox i'd love to hear what happened with you guys was i installed so many extensions add-ons i can't remember what they call them in their particular place that i just bloated the crap out of my firefox and just dragged it to a halt sounds like somebody's neovim config not yours nick somebody else's to the point where it was so slow that it just became a drag and then chrome came out and it was just so fast which may

have partially just been because chrome doesn't have all these extensions installed unfair but chrome was just so fast that i just switched and i never looked back at firefox for for a long time now firebug held me there for development. I can't remember the whole history of when the Chrome DevTools become so awesome. But Firebug was still great for development. So I still used it for that kind of stuff. But eventually, Chrome DevTools became the gold standard in DevTools.

And that really stuck me in Chrome for many years. Yeah, same. Similar? Like, why did you guys switch off Firefox? You were evangelists. Oh man, this is going to sound like such an Apple fanboy thing, but it didn't feel like it was what Apple wanted me to do. Oh, I love it.

There's so many secondary features that are just built in and you get like native, like OS level support for within Safari that you don't get in those. Like the first one that came out, I think was picture in picture mode. Right. And you have to like do like a double right click on YouTube to like, you know, right click once and it gives you the YouTube menu. You right click again and it gives you the browser menu and then you can say enter picture in picture. And it like does this smooth animation to move the video out and does it all right there. If you do it in Firefox or arc, they both support it too. It's like this weird, like floating browser thing that doesn't always work well. And it doesn't, you know, it just doesn't work right. It doesn't feel right. So things like that, like I was like, okay. And then

I kind of discovered the browser syncing between like phone and the the mac that was amazing but then like other features you know when apple started doing apple pay like having the ability to just hit the apple pay button and scan my fingerprint same is amazing yeah and then the two-factor authentication thing when it sends you a text message which i hate getting those text messages. It auto-fills it for you? It auto-fills it, yeah. So nice.

Yeah. I do have a workaround for other browsers, but it's just amazing having it built into Safari. Yeah. Well, that shows over again. You've just echoed all my opinions with Safari. I mean, it's pretty much the same. I just want to point out how much of a religious sentence that was. I just didn't feel like it's what Apple wanted me to do.

I was trying to be dramatic. I know. It was great. I do agree with that, though. They have an aesthetic to their ways, and it translates into their browser as well, which is software, not their typical, this is how we do it with hardware. And they get a lot of crap for being a bad browser. But if you actually use it it is not

a bad browser it is literally only apps like riverside that come up and say hey you can't use us here and but every like literally everything else works fine yeah i agree pretty much you do find the uh you do bump up against some websites like adam was describing earlier where it's like this just wasn't thoroughly tested across safari i just hit one recently even on a zoom call with some people with a content site I won't name them I won't name drop them because it was a bit embarrassing where I said when I scroll back up to the top I can't see the byline of who wrote this article is that a Safari bug and they're like at first they're like no that's a feature and I'm like this can't be a feature because this is a terrible feature and they have a good design uh aesthetic and so i

screen shared with them it was like three people on their blog team and they're like oh yeah that's a bug i was like well i said they're like you use safari i was like yeah daily driver safari user they're like what we've never met one of your kind. It's kind of funny we've got three of us here on the show because we are actually a small, small, small percentage of people that use Safari on desktop. Like we said before, on mobile it's a different story. But most people don't. So you do have

the person who just didn't cross-browser test everything and so there's a UI that looks a little bit weird every once in a while. That's about it. And it's very infrequent. But when it happens I'm like, it's not the site. It's Safari. I'm never questioning the site when it does happen.

Like this kind of obvious issue. Oh, you think it's always Safari's fault. Yeah. I'm like, well, it's like legitimate websites. It's not like rando indie website or something like that. It's something that's you know, I can't do this thing to pick my flight, for example, or you know, a picker for the date range and some, you know, flight website or just something like that, for example. I'm not going to think, well, this is probably Southwest

having the issue. It's probably a browser issue. And I'm just going to swap to Chrome real quick, or in my case, Brave in most cases. I only use Chrome now because I just had an issue with Brave with Riverside. Oh, really? So I haven't gone back Brave in most cases. I only use Chrome now because I just had an issue with Brave with Riverside. Oh, really? So I haven't gone back to Brave since then. I've just been using Riverside and Chrome. But I only use Brave as a Chrome thing for Riverside. That's the only reason I use it.

Otherwise, I'm opening Safari every single time and nothing else. That's it. Yeah. You know, I haven't actually had Chrome installed on a machine since probably 2016. Wow. It's been a few years for me. Maybe like 2019, 2018. Chromium, different story.

Yeah, Chromium is a different story, isn't it? Well, we have that in common. I think if we talk about what we want in a web browser, I think what at least the three of us, and this does seem to be a growing sentiment even amongst people who use chrome still usually for the dev tools and just for their they've just been using it sometimes you're just used to a thing what we don't want is an advertising company inside our browsers right i mean that to me is like that's what i don't want yes and uh that advertising company has manifested again this was just news last week on ars technica google gets its way

bakes a user tracking ad platform directly into chrome now they're calling this they call it the privacy sandbox which is a nice bit of marketing. But because third-party cookies are going by the wayside, Apple's made it very difficult for third parties in that way. And Chrome is now saying, we're going to be privacy-oriented and disable third-party cookies eventually. I think they backed off on it in terms of timing again. And they're just baking the tracking right into Chrome through this privacy sandbox.

So that's what I don't want in a web browser, really, is that. And I think that that's not too much diversity on that topic. Almost everybody is not like, yes, please, more of this. Right? Is there anybody that's excited about having google in their chrome maybe people that have like google accounts and that it's really useful in that way like what will be the upside of having google in your browser is maybe having like the account already which is kind of the stuff you're talking about with apple nick because like if you could use google pay and you're already signed into your google pay and like if you could have your gmail and you're signed. So it's kind of that, only

one is an advertising company and the other one's not. I think that's the big distinction. I think for me that is, and it's probably completely incorrect, but Apple is incentivized to sell me more Apple products. Not my data is what I think in my head. They probably want my data for nefarious things too. Their own sakes. Yeah. But at the end of the day, they're a product company

that's selling me products, not selling my data and analyzing me like crazy. Well, maybe not. I don't know. That's what I think. I think what you're trying to communicate is like they both have an incentive

to get more from you. But with Google, it seems they are willing to give it to third parties without your consent or leverage your data in ways that you're not necessarily opting into. Whereas Apple, you're going to go buy the phone or whatever it might be. You're opting into the continued relationship with the incentives. For sure. So my story to get to Safari was from Firefox to Chrome, from Chrome to Safari. And it was specifically once Apple showed their ability to have that tight integration between my phone and my desktop, specifically cloud tabs, which I use pervasively and extensively, all the Lee words to this day.

And I know it's been added like Firefox can do that now. Chrome can do that now. It's not the tight integration with the OS I know it's been added, like Firefox can do that now, Chrome can do that now. It's not the tight integration with the OS, but it's there. So kudos for them to add that. But that's what actually brought me over to Safari was like CloudTabs. I even developed a thing called PushPop back in the day, which was a little web app slash extension. It was a Safari extension because I had to use Safari on my phone.

That would allow me to take a web webpage from my phone and push it. I don't know how, I can't remember. I think I used the extension to push this and my desktop would pop it with a little Heroku app in between. Because I wanted that so bad. I wanted to just have a website and say, open this on my desktop because when I go back to my desk, I'm going to look at it. And Safari gave me that via iCloud tabs.

And that's when I was like, okay, I'm just going to use Safari all the time. And that's when I realized, hey, it's actually kind of a nice browser. But before that, I was like, oh, Safari's the worst. It's so ugly. It's so strange that we have the same, not the same path necessarily, but the same feelings about the path. That I was sort of not cool with Safari and came for the nice features of, you know, because it's multiple computers, multiple mobile devices, and I have a laptop I take with me. I have a desktop at home. I've got an iPhone and, you know, trying to live in a world where I got

to sign into a browser or something like that to get that kind of feature set. It's just not going to be cool. Yeah. But I came for those features and I stayed for the simplicity that Safari is. It's kind of like TVs. Tell me if you guys like this. Nick, you might be more like this than Jared Les. I want a TV to be an amazing monitor. I do not want it to be the smartest

TV ever. I want it to just be an amazing monitor. That's it. Make my TV shows look amazing, my movies look amazing, and get out of the way. That's it. Just be a monitor. I want to plug into you. I don't want you to be smart. I don't want you to have Android TV, nothing else.

I just want you to be the monitor. That's kind of how I feel about Safari. It's just a great browser. It's not all the complexities that some browsers bring to the table. It's messy. It can be messy. This is actually an analogy I was going to bring up when you asked about browsers doing all of that, spying or knowing everything about you. When you go buy a new TV, I just bought a new TV, and it's LG.

It's a decently well-known brand. It's not like a TCL or one of the, I don't even know, TV brands, but I assume the lower. Shame us. Shame us, us TCL users. Shame us. Those fools. You just buy a TCL. brands but i assume the lower shameless shameless us tcl users those fools you use by tcl i don't own a tcl i think i do have a tcl in my rv but that was that's because it came with it but all of the tvs they're cheaper because like it literally asked me it had a privacy thing like hey we're going to screenshot your tv and we're going to look at what you're watching and then recommend hey you just watched the dark knight do you want to watch the dark knight rises

you can buy it here from our store all right and it's creepy and i don't want that so i know this tv like i can just pull the plug on it and keep it off the internet which i do i do it through through heroes software though like just i was gonna say you pull you like literally pull the plug on your tv when you're done using it i I could, I could. But I just do that. And I exclusively use an Apple TV on it anyway. So that's how I get all my data. Good job again, Apple. You give it all to Apple.

I'm with you. How many Apple TVs do you have? Five. Okay. We're simpatico here, Nick. Because I've recently gone to the dark side, though. Let me tell you, in my media room, I have a Nvidia Shield, and it is actually really good. But they're basically an ad platform.

Like, it's same thing. Like, I'm going to sell your stuff. The home screen, you can't control the home screen. I'm going to advertise you shows you don't really care about. When your kids come in the room, you can't control this content that being advertised to you yeah that's disgusting it is but it plays some other things just amazing it's got better support for all the video codecs and stuff like that whereas apple has a little bit limited on the 4k level so the nvidia shield is and it's got some really amazing ai upscaling it is uncanny how good it is. It will take HD.

Scale it up. And I've never seen a work this good, but it makes 4K content on HD, and it's just so good. So good. Wow. So I have a bunch of old DVDs, and I wonder if it would,

will it take my DVDs and upscale them to 4K? It's just HD. I haven't touched a DVD in 10 years. Well, it's funny. I have them all ripped. I can still them all ripped You were just talking about this recently On my bookshelf over there I can't remember if it was on the show or not I ripped all these

I took all the time, handbrake My old DVDs, digitize them Categorize them, libraryize them So I can watch them In perpetuity I haven't watched one in a very long time I forgot how bad 720p and then i had it was yeah yeah and then i we over the last uh christmas holiday we decided

to do a lord of the rings marathon and i'm like cool i loaded up i have all the extended editions all nine whatever whatever i loaded up the first one on our tv in the basement which is large it's like an 85 inch you know uh 4k and i could not believe like if you stretch a 720 is it 720p i think would be yeah you stretch a 720p to 4k 85 inch screen and like the pixels are like the size of a like a tater tot you know it's that big. You can see every pixel. He didn't say a quarter. He says a tater tot. Well, they're square. Okay. Pauline, give me some of your tots. No, go find your own.

Come on, give me some of your tots. No, I'm freaking starving. I didn't get to eat anything today. what's up friends i'm here with vj rajji ce CEO and founder of Statsig, where they help thousands of companies from startups to Fortune 500s to ship faster and smarter with a unified platform for feature flags, experimentation, and analytics. So Vijay, what's the inception story of Statsig? Why did you build this? Yeah, so Statsig started about two and a half years ago. And before that, I was at Facebook for 10 years where I saw firsthand the set of tools that people or engineers inside Facebook had access to. And this breadth and depth of the tools that actually led to the formation of the canonical engineering culture that Facebook is famous for. And that also got me thinking about like, you know, how do you distill all of that and bring it out to everyone? If every company wants to like build that kind of an engineering culture of building and shipping things really fast, using data to make data informed decisions, and then also informed to

like, what do you need to go invest in next? And all of that was like, fascinating was really, really powerful. So so much so that I decided to quit Facebook and start this company. Yeah, so in the last two and a half years, we've been building those tools that are helping engineers today to build and ship new features and then roll them out. And as they're rolling it out, also understand the impact of those features. Does it have bugs? Does it impact your customers in the way that you expected it? Or are there some side effects, unintended side effects? And knowing those things help you make your product better.

It's somewhat common now to hear this train of thought where an engineer developer was at one of the big companies, Facebook, Google, Airbnb, you name it. And they get used to certain tooling on the inside. They get used to certain workflows, certain developer culture, certain ways of doing things, tooling, of course, and then they leave and they miss everything they had while at that company. And they go and they start their own company like you did. What are your thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on that kind of tech being on the inside of the big companies and those of us out here, not in those companies without

that tooling. In order to get the same level of sophistication of tools that companies like Facebook, Google, Airbnb, and Uber have, you need to invest quite a bit. You need to take some of your best engineers and then go have them go build tools like this. And not every company has the luxury to go do that, right? Because it's a pretty large investment. And so, the fact that the sophistication of those tools inside these companies have advanced so much, and that's like left behind most of the other companies and the tooling that they get access to, that's exactly the opportunity that I was like, okay, well, we need to bring those sophistication outside so everybody can be benefiting from these. Okay. The next step is to go to statsig.com slash changelog. They're offering our fans

free white glove onboarding, including migration support. In addition to 5 million free events per month, that's massive. Test drive statsig today at statsig.com slash changelog. That's massive. Test drive Statsig today at Statsig.com slash changelog. That's S-T-A-T-S-I-G.com slash changelog. The link is in the show notes. but without all of that that creepy advertising tvs would be a lot more expensive that's true there's even a tv now that has its own dedicated ad player at the bottom that you can get for free. Really? The TV is free? The TV is free, but it has sensors and stuff. So if you try and cover up the thing that plays ads at the bottom, it doesn't

work. It shuts down. Oh my goodness. You just have to be accepting of that. And it does all of the UI for the TV. The channel menu and all that is down there. You play games on it and stuff. Think how profitable that has to be in order to be literally like free hardware is worth it for them. Exactly.

Because they can make so much money on advertising and tracking. Yeah. That's crazy. What a world to shift from, right? Like we had box TVs back in our parents' day. Like they were furniture, right? Oh yeah. It was a cabinet like made of wood. and now like the thing is like drastically changed like the tv of today is not the tv of yesterday by any means oh yeah

but now extrapolate that out to a browser like they need to be doing this stuff to to keep the browsers free right except in this case it's weird because yeah Apple, it's a write-off for them because they make their money on the products. Google makes all of their money on the advertising, which the browser does help feed. But also, who knows, Google might abandon it tomorrow. They're known to do that stuff. Which brings us to all these browsers that I refuse to use. It's because they asked me to pay them money right up front. There's the problem, right?

I saw that and I was like, ah, you want my credit card? I haven't even tried it yet. Or an account. But that's where this stuff is going. I know it's going to subscriptions. Yeah, account as well. So ARK is part and parcel. Which brings me to ARK Browser.

What's their long game? What's their model? What's going to happen? Do we know? And I also think about this. I do like ARK, but if I'm not paying them, I feel weird about using them because A, they either won't survive and so I'll get used to it and not like it, or B,

I'm going to pay for features that I don't actually need or want. They'll add a privacy sandbox in there for you. I don't know what their game plan is but i do know the challenge of a browser company such as name some of these that you share these are like developer browsers polyplane i think was one yeah what was the other one sizzle sizzy and so these are like browsers for developers and i love the concept is like we should make a browser specifically for web development why not and that's cool but then the immediate paywall i'm just like ah dev tools is good you know like that's a really an uphill battle for them don't you think i think so i think that

a lot of people have a problem paying for software like that like browsers right but when you think about it as oh this is a dev tool, if it actually provides enough value, which I think that both of them do, they both have pretty much identical features. I think Sysi is a little bit nicer, just in its interaction and its UI. Its UX is better a little bit,

but they're both Chromium browsers that support this ability to show you the browser, show you what you're editing, and have dev tools with it. But then they can also do things like, here's a phone, here's a desktop, here's a tablet, and see them all at once and see them all sync together. And then if you're developing the Open Graph stuff, the Open Graph links, you can see that. And here's an example of what it would look like on Twitter. Here's what it would look like on Facebook. That's cool. Yeah. So you don't have to like go out and do all of this. You can do it with your local host running app and see exactly what it looks like and make sure that's all working. So that's really cool. And then just

the convenience of having like, this is not my daily driver browser. This is something that I'm using exclusively for development. So having a development specific browser for it makes sense. It can do really cool, like advanced screenshotting things because it knows you're going to want to take screenshots and mark up things and send it over, you know, to your UX team or whatever to verify things like that. But also just like the simplicity of having a separate browser for development exclusively, especially like on Mac OS command tabbing over to that is way easier than, what is it, command tilde? Or is it shift tilde?

I can't remember which one to go between like this Chrome window versus that Chrome window. Right, command tilde, I believe. That's all cool. And I don't want to sound like I'm denigrating someone for having me pay for their software. I'm totally fine with paying for software that provides value. Two things that give me pause in this case. First of all, we were just trying them out for a podcast

so it wasn't like I was looking for a development browser. And secondly, provide a way. Polyplane has a free trial. It's not very expensive. Nine bucks a month for an individual. Once you get into the business, you're getting $39 a month probably per, that's your entire team, so that's three computers per user, 10 users. So $39 across 10 people, reasonable. And then, of course, they have the enterprise. If you have more money than Apple, you can get that one.

But free trial, great. But then an account thing right at the start. Whatever happened to let me try your software? Because they could easily just do a thing that works. You just download the app, it works for 14 days and then it asks you for money. That to me is better than

this account thing right away. It just drives me nuts. Yeah, I agree. It could be easier and I think you'd get better turnover on things like that. I think I heard about Polyplane on a podcast and Sissy was actually in, I don't know if you guys have ever tried Setapp before. I haven't. Describe that. It's a subscription app store for macOS that lets you pay like $10 a month and you get access to all

of these apps. And I finally broke down after I was like, wait a minute, I pay individually for like 10 of these apps. So paying way cheaper, $10 a month, you know, when you're talking about like $50 subscription here, $20 subscription there, $70 subscription there, like, you know, you put them all together and I just get this one thing that's always up to date and it's keeping them up. It's really nice, but it has several different apps in there. And Sizzy used to be in there. And that's when I first played with it. And then the developer, I think, pulled it out. But I've since continued paying for it. And I really like it. So of these two, is Sysi the one that you said one of them is beautiful and awesome?

I think they're both great. And I think that both developers are... Sysi seems to be better marketed, at least. Yeah. I think they just have better UI like their site looks better their Sissy and Polyplane are pretty similar in Polypane my bad Polypane it's not a great name

in my opinion well because there's all these panes that you're looking at too many polys and too many panes anyways I get it I understand the name it does make sense but it's just it's hard to say yeah it's hard poly plane is actually a cool name you know yeah it's like poly jane but not poly jane it's poly plane anyways very similar and even pricing their pricing is similar i think they both make the same mistake y'all talked about but i think the lesson could be learned from raycast. I think Raycast has a phenomenal model for the way they deliver.

They give a lot of good stuff away for free, no account required, and you can just use it. They want to be ubiquitous on Mac machines. They want to make every Mac supercharged. Smarter, they say. I didn't agree with that model right away. It's like, you guys are giving away way too much for free yeah but now i get it and i think sissy and paulie pain could uh and even arc i think any of these browsers who want to compete with the likes of google or safari

when it comes to browsers firefox you've got to give away something for free with no account that's just amazing. And then if I'm down for paying, because I'm like you, Nick, I don't want to adopt Ark and like a year later they die because I was too stiff to pay him something. I think that's the business model. None of these guys are getting right. But what does it take to get the right browser business model?

In the case of these dev web browsers, I totally get it. And my advice on the Raycast model, they should listen to, write down twice, and do it. But every other browser, I'm just not sure how you build a business around a browser. Certainly not easy. Do you remember back in the day when Opera was a paid browser?

I never paid for it once. Is this concessions of Nick Neesey? I used it, but I never paid for it. I never used it. I just shied away from it. Well, you didn't say that part. I thought you were just telling us your piracy days. Things were different then, though.

You were probably younger, so you had less resources. But at the same time, I think the web was new then so everything was free Are you saying in the past Nick was probably younger? Well I don't know if it's an age thing really I think it's more of like just an internet age even like things were different and we didn't like why would you pay

for opera when you had so many other free options and I think there's a maturity to our need as a human race to the internet now that's different than it was probably 10 years ago, whenever that was the case, or 15. I don't even know how long ago that was. Gosh, if it was 15 years ago, that's a long time.

But anyways, I think there's a change now where we want to, because we realize now that we, like when you buy the TV and you get it for $100 when it should have been $1, thousand because you're the eyeballs. You're the product they're selling. They're subsidizing their thing with X. And I think that we're, just culturally, we're becoming more and more aware of this and we're willing to pay more or some at all when it was used to be free because we want to see it live we don't want to be you know taking advantage of with our data or our security we want to have more control over the home screen like i'd pay a hundred bucks more for an nvidia shield if i could just control the home screen like when we open it up like it's never bad things necessarily but my kids are like

what's that and it's like a war movie or something like that with guns. Like I'm not trying to show my seven-year-old anarchy and guns at this moment in his life. He'll find that out at some point, but like in due time, not right now with my, in our media room. You know what I mean? I think that we are willing to pay for things now than we weren't willing to pay for 10 years ago because we have a maturity both personally and culturally.

I found the history. This is from the register. Opera browser goes free with version 5.0 launch. Any guesses on what year this was? 2009. You're off. Adam, one guess. Nick's wrong. What's the version? 5.0. Nick's off. He says 2009. 2015. You're way off. It was the year 2000. In the year 2000.

What? This is written, if I've got this right. Yes, even in the URL. 2012. 6. December 6, 2000 is when John Lettuce wrote this for the register. Opera Browser goes free. Jared here in post-production. I did a little more research after recording, and while it's true that version 5 had a free option in the year 2000, it was ad-supported, and you could still buy a license to ditch the ads. Opera version which came out in 2005 was completely free without ads

so nick how old were you in the year 1999 i was in eighth grade okay so no that's why you never paid for it i'm pretty sure i had a windows 95 computer let's replay that again ancient history do you remember when opera was was paid i never paid for it i never paid for it i never paid for it the hindsight makes that i was in middle school so yeah it's so good that was good it was funny in the moment too i think your guess of 2009 was about what i was expecting to find i was like i'm gonna go find this off by a decade that was ancient history wow i swear that i thought it was paid when i was in high'm gonna go find this off by a decade that was ancient history wow i swear that i thought it was paid when i was in high school and it's way more than 10 or 15 years ago which

is when i said that would be a shame if it was 15 it's more like you know 23 years ago yeah oh that makes me feel just well i would also confess i wasn't paying for much software in eighth grade. No. Yeah, exactly. I didn't have internet until 2002, probably. Well, that's another good reason not to pay for it. You don't have a use for a web browser. That's funny. The business model of Sissy, though, and the business model of Pauly Payne. Gosh, that's painful to say.

Sorry, Pauly Payne. I think has legs. I think they got a great idea. I like the idea. To make a dev browser for developers, that totally makes sense. Because you got specific desires, and maybe you need dev tools plus plus.

Don't take that, because we own the plus plus. Aside from LimeWire plus plus, or whatever that was, Jared. What was that back in the day i did read that mojo you know mojo with the fire emoji yeah that those guys are calling themselves python plus plus and i was like you can't do that we already did and i was like wait a minute c plus plus also did that before we did so we don't own okay fine we don't own the trademark on incrementing things can i try maybe i can do this live here on the on the air jared since you like to use it all the time what's that change all plus plus it's better oh that's a good one it's kind of like that whoa

that was my voice nick and then we just tweaked it a little bit really i had no idea change all plus plus it's better yeah that's adam. It's a rough version of that. That's amazing. And Jared uses it all the time and people love it. I don't use it because I think it's kind of silly. We don't know that. We don't know that at all. I never use it. If you love the It's Better, please leave us a comment

because we don't actually know if people love it. I think it's funny, so I always just drop it in there at the end of stuff. But people may hate it and they're like, I would sign up for your guys' membership if you would stop playing that stupid little soundbite. So if you feel that strongly, let us know. Oh, the other one is Tringsil Puff Puff. There's a version I do. I got like a Frankenstein voice or something.

Tringsil Puff Puff. You try it, Nick. Oh, I don't know if I could right now. Look at the Nick on COVID version. You're like, look what's happening to us because you don't support our work. He's on the COVID. We're dying of COVID over here.

Our panelists are just, they can't even talk anymore. What if we lose our voices? Where were we? Okay, so Sizzy and Pauly Payne are cool. I'm definitely still going to try them. It stopped me from this particular. I was just like, I do not like to sign up for an account before I use anything. I want to use something.

I'll sign up for an account eventually, but don't start with that. I just have a gut negative reaction to the first thing you want is my email address to try some software out i'll put it in there eventually i'm cool with that but i believe warp was the same way i believe they require you to have an account to use their software i don't know if it's the case now but yeah i like work now so i don't even care but that's the problem like until you know you like it then you do care right like you don't want to especially for every service you sign up for account you get in there trickle down emails like hello hello hacker noon we've unsubscribed okay i'm about to go on the internet and blast out hacker noon how many times do we have to unsubscribe

from hacker noon we never subscribed in the first place no we didn't now we just mark as spam that's my new move nick do you get Noon having never subscribed to it? Because it's a thing. I did. And I, yeah, I think I put it in some black hole. They won't let us unsubscribe, Nick. For some reason, we can't unsubscribe from it. It just keeps sending.

They take us to the unsubscribe page. They say you have unsubscribed. Yeah. And then in parentheses and small print, it says, just kidding. We're going to keep sending editors at changelog.com this email on the daily whether you like it or not okay you cannot hide from us hackernan okay we you're gonna get it you're getting this this email you're getting so many spam markers on your guys's emails anyways that's the point like i can't sign up for these accounts because I know I'm going to be in their marketing channels, which I'm cool with if I was a customer. Yeah, I mean, I like the way that Zed is handling it with the text editor Zed

from Nathan Sobo and the folks at Atom, where it's like you can download and use the thing. There is accounts. You can have an account in there, and that will unlock syncing and whatever features they're going to add. And they'll eventually have a paid tier with Teams and stuff. And I understand, and I don't have a problem with any of that as a means of building a business around a piece of software. But make me pop in my email address and my username at the moment when it's going to provide me a reason to do so.

Right? Yeah. That's what I said to Zach about Warp is like, I don't have a problem having an account, but don't make me start with the account. Add the account just in time for me to say, yes, I would love sync feature. Here's my email address.

I would use Warp if it could run Vim. Can it not run Vim? Last I checked, it could not. I'm on the same thing with Tmux. I mean, I've Vim into things. I'm not doing complex Vim things, but I'm just like, you know, single Vim editor editor it has to be able to run vim right i mean it does run vim yeah last time i tried it it couldn't do tmux though and so that's when i

yeah that's my question every time i talk to adam or zach about warp is can it do tmux that's probably what it was yeah if you tried tmux vim inside tmux it's not it wouldn't work back when i tried it i don't know about today. Yeah. But yeah, that's my problem with Warp is it doesn't support Tmux. For me, that's just a deal breaker. Is that a pervasive thing? Like, do a lot of developers use Tmux? Like, every time I've tried to use it, it's always felt kludgy to me.

And I never figured out how to hold it. Everybody who watched Nick Nisi's most popular YouTube video of all time is on Tmux, right? Yep. Yeah. So you're a Tmux for life kind of guy, Nick? Nick makes YouTube bucks on that sucker. Oh, I have to upload a new video.

They just told me or they're going to cut me out of the ads program. Why? Because they're silly. It's too old? Yeah. Because they're silly. Because they're silly. You're way too happy about this.

Shouldn't you be mad? I am mad, but I just have to laugh through the pain how many views are on this video so nick made a video years ago his vim plus tmux set up and how he does everything and it has hundreds of thousands of views right it has 726 000 wow which is better than some of your other videos you're missing out nick at one point i don't think it's true anymore but at one point it was the most popular Vim video on YouTube. I checked it a couple of times. I checked it.

Put that on a plaque, you know, put that behind your head there. All I did was I searched for Vim and then I sorted by most popular or most watched. And then I scrolled past hundreds of videos that were not about the Vim text editor, but were like these like dance videos that just had the word Vim in them for some reason. Sure. But the first one was me. And then there was one right after that, that was, it was a ThoughtBot video, I think.

Okay. But yeah, it was right up there. Did the dance videos have more views? Oh yeah, they must have. You scrolled past them all. Probably, yeah. So after you scroll past these highly popular dance videos with the word Vim in them, then you they must have. You scrolled past them all. Probably, yeah. So after you scroll past these highly popular dance videos with the word Vim in them, then you find your video.

So I found my video. Okay. Which is higher than everybody else's, though. Exactly. That was back when there probably wasn't much dev content. You really should go into that more then. Since they're making you do a new video or whatever, if that's important to you, I'd do a series, man.

I've been saying this for years. I wanted Nick to take over our Vim With Me series. Remember that, Nick? Yes. I recorded two of them, I think. You never even told me. You recorded some of those? I did.

I still have them, I think. Are they still good? Probably. Or were they ever good? Yeah. Probably. Are they with other people? Yeah, real people.

So a little bit of background. We did this. Now I feel bad because these people expected their videos to get published. So we did a Vim With Me series in conjunction. This was Adam's idea. In conjunction with our Vim episode a couple years ago. And so I have like four videos, maybe three. Vim With Me, Suze Hinton, Gary Bernhardtt julia evans and nick i did one with nick as well

all very popular too not 700 000 popular but popular yeah pretty popular like thousands of people yeah lots of likes and i thought this is kind of cool but nick is more of the vim addict than i am and he has this popular vim video i was like why don't you take over a vim with me nick and you can do the vim with me videos and you were all about it i never heard another word turns out you you went about it recorded a couple we need to close the loop surprise i know before you have to re-record them or you'll get demonetized what's up with this youtube re-record thing i don't understand like why is your video gonna get demonized? He has to upload new ones. Yeah, my YouTube channel will get...

Oh, your channel is going to become archived or something. Yeah, not archived, but no longer eligible to put, gain money. In the creator program or whatever. Yes, that's it. How much money have you made out of this video over the years? Just over $1,200, $1,300. That's not bad. I thought you were going to say $12. Yeah, not bad. thought you're gonna say 12 bucks yeah not bad

for doing nothing right on 700 000 views you did something it seems like nothing but this video this was a video that i recorded like i mean i had no script i put together like 80 slides literally an hour before i was doing this uh. And so there was no thought put into this at all. And it's like far and away the most popular thing I've ever done. So I can never replicate it. It's the problem. That's going to be like our Instagram reel that has 6 million views right now. Yeah, that's crazy.

Of the 6.3 million, it continues to go. And I'm just sitting here thinking like if you scroll our reels like the watches you know it's like 2 000 3 000 4 000 6.3 million it's like we're never gonna get anywhere near that ever again so it's kind of demoralizing like should we keep posting or should we just retire i guess you chose to retire nick i didn't i oh you kept posting after the video i have posted three or four times in the last eight years. Sounds like your blog. Just for context, what is that video, Jared?

So that people are like, what is this video Jared's talking about? What is it? It's a short of Damien Reel, who was a guest on Practical AI, who's a programmer slash lawyer, who created allthemel melodies.info him and his friend brute forced 471 billion melodies and then put them in the public domain so that nobody could sue each other over copyright infringement on melody creation something like this and it's held up in court and so he tells that story he's very good at telling the story i think he's told it probably like ted and other places he tells it in 60 seconds in a very compelling way and because

it's a cross-section of ai it's not actually ai the brute force but people thought it was ai it's on a ai podcast ip law you know copyright and ip law and music which everybody has a yeah and a twist ending because he doesn't mention that he put it in the public domain till the very end we're pissed so people think that he's a villain and then he says he published because he said i copyrighted 471 billion melodies and you're thinking this guy's a villain and i'm going to sue everybody out of existence but then at the end he says and we put in the public domain and so now nobody can sue each other over this thing and so he's actually kind of a hero in that way because Because of that, this thing skyrocketed on Instagram.

It did over a million views on TikTok as well. But Instagram is the one that just went insane with over 6 million views. Yeah. And it's been a fun ride. Now we have followers that have no idea why they follow us. And so we post our next video. And it's like me and Nick arguing about TypeScript. And they're like, uh. More of this. Oh, oh man this isn't the dance video i was looking for what's this jared guy he's

so wrong i signed up for more of this crazy music talk y'all missed my joke it was good i'm not seeing it oh i missed it sorry the podcast didn't get it though they're laughing play it back with a laugh track in more of this oh man This isn't the dance video I was looking for. Let me get this back on track. Can I get this back on track? Let me just end this by saying you need to create more videos on YouTube, man. And soon. And soon, before it's too late.

All right. Adam, get us back on track. Let me add one more to your sugar, Jared. I think there is legs with the vim with me concept i thought so way back then and all those videos did quite well and people loved that deep dive into vim yeah that jared did as a podcast yeah and i think vim is like the thing that almost nobody can get right right away it always needs guidance you know and why not have your friendly neighborhood nick nisi to ahoy hoy you get you you didn't even say that in the top of this podcast what's wrong with us here oh no covid brain come on we broke that we broke the

podcast here we'll splice it again we're gonna do a lot of splicing in this episode let me encourage you as well like jared did i think you should do more of those and if you you should do some of that stuff with uh with us on the on the youtube but you know whatever it's fun stuff if you would watch videos tweet at nick nisi on threads where do people tweet at you nowadays nick at nick nisi at nick nisi.com on the fediverse he's on threads Threads. He's on Blue Sky. He is still on Twitter, even though he doesn't want to be. I'm just guessing. Yep. Yes. So use all the social networks to let him know. You want to

see Vim with me, Nick Nisi hosting a tour of people Viming and how they do it. Especially those two videos you already recorded. You should get those out there. All right, Adam. Bring us back to browsers. Browserify this conversation. Okay. I do think, I'm glad, Nick nick that you felt the same i did with uh with tvs and browsers i think they're

the same like it's your browser to the the visual the browser is your browser to obviously the web yeah i want them to be simple but what does it take i think the question really is what does it take to make it successful like how can you really battle the beast? Safari, Chrome, Firefox, Arc. I don't know. Like, is Arc a contender? What kind of business model does it take? What kind of experience does it take?

Like, what does it take to be the browser that we want? That's a great question. I think that is a very personal question, too, that everyone will answer differently. But there's different dials, the same dials that everyone will turn, like plus or minus, you know, I want more of this. I think for folks like us,

the dial that will probably turn the most is privacy. We want as much privacy as possible when going through this because we don't want to be advertised to about everything. But we also want, like, as we're all Mac users, we also want something that looks really pretty and has great UX. So that's something that a lot of browsers don't get right. Arc is doing a great job of that. I think Safari is doing a great job. I haven't touched Chrome in a long time. I heard that they're redoing things to be more material which turns me off like completely from chrome yeah there's a big redesign coming out for number for version 15 and i linked to it in changelog news there's a nice ars technica write-up maybe we'll find that for this show notes

as well it's not doing it for me but okay the aesthetics have to be right right it definitely has to begin there which is what i like about like about Arc. It's interesting to take a new visual take on browsing, but it breaks so many of my baked-in user experiences, I suppose, of a browser that is pretty much the same across all of them. They redefine and refine, which isn't terrible necessarily, but it's going to make adoption quite hard. Right. The biggest interface change that Arc does specifically is

tabs on the left-hand sidebar. And I haven't got over it. And they have some sort of fascination with this favorites thing in the folders. When you navigate through tabs, those are included. It's strange. I can't understand it. Some of that's cool,

but just having the tabs on the sidebar is a culture shock for a person who's had tabs at the top in all browsers I've used ever since tabs were introduced. And also, tabs at the top in your OS, everywhere. Tabs on the side,

I haven't been using as long as you, Nick. I've probably been using it in earnest for a week. I downloaded it a while back. You've been using it for a couple of months maybe you just get used to that i'm constantly looking for my tabs yeah and they're down in the lower left hand corner and i just can't quite get over that have you gotten over it no it's very very confusing and by default they do this weird thing where they have like tabs, like today's tabs and the actual tabs. And then they have like bookmarky tab things. Right. They keep them like that.

And if you just keep stuff in, I think today's tabs, after 12 hours by default, it just like archives the tabs and they're gone. And you can bring them back, of course. But like, you know, you leave, you know, you leave in the morning or whatever and come back at night and you're like, okay, what was I doing? And all of your tabs are gone. That's terrible. Great idea, but you've got to get that implementation right because long-lived tabs are a thing. You can adjust it to say, oh, this is never delete them or delete them after a day or a week or a month, I think. And so that's good

that there's that flexibility. But by default, I found it to be way too short, and they just disappear. And then, you know, I feel completely lost about what I was doing. So that's a problem. I think that one thing that well, first off, Jared, you were saying like the tabs on the site, if you want that, but in Safari, there is actually a browser uh called orion that is safari it's webkit it's very safari look and feel but with tabs on the side i think he doesn't want that he's like anti the sidebar tabs right i don't want it but i did not know about orion i'm always happy to hear about other web browsers another one that we haven't brought up i forgot to put it in our list but i found it again while we talked was vivaldi. And I think a lot of people like Vivaldi. And I think that Vivaldi is created by the old opera

CEO left or something. I don't know the exact story and started Vivaldi. And I know there's people that bring up Vivaldi whenever we talk browsers on JS party. So they're out there. I don't know anything about the browser, but I wanted to bring it up as just, we didn't forget about it. Well, we forgot about it but we do remember it now and I'm sure it's good. We didn't forget about it

but we did forget about it. Yeah. We forgot to try it. I did. But we didn't forget to mention it. What in the world does it take to build a company around a browser? Like, wow.

How do they make money? They sell your data. Maybe you don't want to build a company around a browser. Maybe you want to build an open source community around a browser. Is that what Vivaldi is, or open source? No, I'm thinking about Lady Bird. Oh, yeah. Well, Lady Bird is kind of a toy for now, but it will become not a toy, potentially.

Yes. So Lady Bird is the web browser being built into Serenity OS, but it's going to be able to run outside of Serenity OS. I think it can run on Linux today, but if it can't, that's going to be a thing. And so this is like just a completely community, open source, hackers browser by a guy who, Andreas Kling, Nick, who worked at Apple on Safari for many years

and is building an OS in his free time. And the support that he has might be the kind of, I'm not saying that Lady Bird's the one, but I'm saying like that model where he's basically supported by Patreon at this point, I think. We didn't get into his financials very much, Adam, on our interview with him,

but it seems to me that he has enough Patreon support that he's doing serenity and later ladybird yeah it's all right he's he's hiring because he has a commercial sponsor at this point so like maybe that could be a model at least for an actual competitive you know like the firefox startup basically yeah before before it got so big yeah that, that's really cool. So this reminds me of this post from Gabe Kangas, who listened to our OpenTF interview last week. And he said, just listened about OpenTF, a bunch of people band together, forked a major project, and found enough people who were interested in existing and wanted to be involved. I wish this could happen with a browser. Sure, Thank you. No Mozilla taking money from Google. No Brave adding crypto. A browser from the people for the people without corporate ownership and direct control.

It's a pipe dream, but it's a hell of a dream. I'm sure it'd be hard, but I don't think it would be impossible. Everybody needs a browser. Why can't it be treated as a public good? Nice sentiment there, Gabe. That's what we need. Who's coming with me? J.M. McGuire. All right. Yeah. So, I mean, something like that could be cool. there game that's what we need so who's coming with me jr mcguire all right um yeah so i mean

something like that could be cool i'd get behind that but it's gonna have icloud tabs or not because i mean this person brings up a great point he does i think that that's the thing the ones that are succeeding are and the ones that will continue to succeed are the ones that feel like they have the most legs, right? And that's Safari Chrome and I guess Edge at this point, but they're the browser and in Google's case, the search engines baby, right? They're there to facilitate them. You can't sell macOS without a browser and they're not likely to give you Chrome by default. Microsoft kind of does do that, I guess. They abandoned Edge, which was a good decision for them, and went to Chromium, which is great.

But it's pretty well assured that five, ten years from now, those browsers are still going to be there. And all of these other distracting browsers like Arc and Vivaldi and all of them, I hope they're still around. But if they don't find their market or find a way to support themselves, the ones that treat the browser as a write-off to their real business are going to be the ones that stick around. That's how the rich stay rich, Nick.

The deep pockets stay deep that way. There has to be hope for a rise. I agree. An upstart. An upstart. Whether it's an open source community or a small business that's trying to make a run in it. I don't know. It also takes talent. You know, that's the thing that I think Andreas Kling has going for him that we didn't really talk about much because of course you don't want to just overly compliment a guy when he's on your show and be interviewed but he's an extremely talented developer very you just know by what he's put together and so that's why i'm kind of like well ladybird you know it's

never going to be all these things but it might have an opportunity because this guy understands web browsers it's not a small feat because he's even going from the rendering engine up. He's not a Chromium add-on. So that is a major undertaking, and it doesn't just require money. It requires talent and dedication. So it is a tall order. I agree with you. Here's a whole different question.

Are browsers going to be relevant in the very near future? Like how long will a browser be relevant? Like the desktop eventually is going to, like will it die? Because I was just thinking about like mobile and how important that is. Like you talk to people that are, this is just anecdotal. This is my rough opinion without any research. You can talk to somebody and they're like, they won't even tell you what browser they use.

They just browse the web. They don't know, nor do they care. So I think the, the behemoths out there are going to collapse you based upon the fact that people just don't know or care necessarily. And it's people like us who truly do care. But I wonder how long the browser will be in its current form,

like that important. I think that it'll outlast the desktop yeah i think like vision os right safari is a very prominent example of what you can do in vision os and how well it can work right yeah that's true as long as the web is relevant then the browser is relevant right yeah so when how long will the web survive is really the answer to the question i suppose you still go into a web browser but i guess what i mean by like should there does there need to be a war like could we just secede to these incumbents essentially like not we but most of the mainstream we've all clearly sec succeeded to the incumbent that is apple well or chromium right like chromium is almost i mean it's bigger is it bigger than what ie was back then in terms of

market share it's got to be up there i think no i think ie was probably at its peak was probably higher than chrome at its peak but i'm not 100 think Chrome, I'd speak, is in the 60s. 63, according to StatCounter. IE in the 90s had to be higher than that, but I don't have stats. I could be wrong. What makes somebody care about what browser they use? I know what we care about based upon our conversation, but what makes everyday folks who have less of a concern like we do what what makes them care about what browser they use they just have its utility expected to be there i use android i use iphone so i'd use what they give me i don't really care it's the web you know i mean like what makes somebody choose

their browser when they have a choice it takes probably a desktop which is kind of like a dying breed like most people these days are on some sort of mobilized device, an iPad-like thing or an iPhone-like thing. And that seems to be the thing that's rising. Desktops still used, but mainly by people who make, you know, and analyze, make and analyze, I would say. Maybe a rough version of like that's where the desktop sort of thrives did we do a disservice though like your parents get a new computer today and they're like oh my little jared told me to go

to get firefox.com back in 1997 and little jared oh jared my little jared whatever you do don't buy opera i don't know are you Yeah, don't buy Opera. I don't know. Are you saying that today we're not doing that? Like we used to do that and now we're not doing that? Or what do you mean? I just mean like I'm trying to think of my parents. Like if they get a new computer, are they just sticking with Safari or Edge if they make a mistake of getting a Windows machine?

Or are they like, oh, I'm going to open Edge and then I'm going to go to trricrome.com or whatever and get that. Because I told them when I was in high school. I mean, I can speak to my immediate family is that they're just using Safari on iOS. And they don't even know that it's Safari. They're just like, where's the internet? Or where's the web on this phone? And it's like, well, it's that button.

It looks like a compass or whatever it looks like. Yep. And then they don't have a desktop. They got iPads. So. You see? Don't need it. When or whatever it looks like. Yep. And then they don't have a desktop. They got iPads. So. You see? Don't need it. What I said is true.

That's just my experience, though, in my little corner of the world. The world's large. It's probably pretty accurate. It's how it is in my household, too. I think we're a version of what's normal for most of the U.S. Western U.S. Yeah. View of the world.

And so, like, when you think about ARC, and you think about one of the other ones we didn't even mention yet, we have a list. At least I wrote down our list. We had ARC. We haven't talked about horse yet. Oh yeah, you teased it. We have to talk about it before it's over. Next, web browser quiche. Oh my gosh.

Who's going to say that? That's cool. It's like a very minimal iOS browser, by the way. So it is Safari under the hood. I was like, okay, under the hood. But it's another take on a mobile browser and its entire thing is simplicity, which is kind of nice when you open it. You're like, oh, there's like not much here.

It's like, get a shot. It's a free one. It's free to try. Free to have, I think, in-app purchases maybe. But that was just the one mobile one that I thought maybe we would give a shot. Next, we didn't try because Next is a hacker's browser. NYXT, very cool.

I've covered it in Changelog News. It's kind of in the vein of Lady Bird, but impossible to run on macOS, it seems, without Docker or something. So I got stopped in my tracks to try Next. Without Docker. Would you run a browser in a Docker container? Could you? It said you could install from Mac ports.

And I thought, oh, man. I saw that as well. What year is this? Yeah, Mac ports. I'm like, is that? Are they still around, Mac ports? And then Docker, no. No, I'm not going to run anything inside of a Docker container.

If my life depended on it, I would. But otherwise, no. Yeah. Sorry. There have been other takes, too, of other browsers, which we didn't put in this list just because over the years they come and go, essentially. Because it's probably hard to fight this uphill battle. But most of these things are fighting for power features.

And I don't think that the power feature user of the browser is growing generally. It's certainly not Jared's children and his wife or my children and my wife, or same with you, Nick. It's probably like those folks are just like, where's the internet? Not where's the browser? And then they probably don't care necessarily about privacy because they don't know to care about it.

Eventually they will, and then they will care. But then I think when it comes to a browser, I protect my privacy to some degree in a different manner. I use PyHole or NextDNS or other things at the DNS LAN level versus the browser level. And even when I'm mobile, I use Tailscale, my VPN, and through a PyHole back wherever because I'm that kind of person. You can do that with NextDNS as well.

Tailscale is so good. So good. They're a sponsor, by the way. We love them. This is do that with NextDNS as well. Tailscale is so good. They're a sponsor, by the way. We love them. This is not a paid mention. I love them. I actually went and begged them. I love you so much. Please, please, please. I'm just kidding. I didn't say that. While we're mentoring sponsors,

Raycast has sponsored us in the past. They have, yes. We're not talking about them because of that. Warp has sponsored us. We're not talking about them because of that. We just talk about has sponsored us. We're not talking about them because of that. We just talk about what we want to. And they happen to be people that are companies that we like, they like us, and they sometimes sponsor us. That's just the way it works. But none of this is sponsored mentions.

For sure. We're not like Back to the Future Part 2 where they say, try a Pepsi. Try a Pepsi. So I just wonder, should we you know, should we just, like, roll over and take it? The Safari Chrome Edge way? Oh, you make it sound like that. Well, I mean, like, what's the prediction you have for ARK? Like, you've been using it for a couple months.

Are they going to be around in two years? And if they are, what is it going to take for them to be around in two years? That's a great question. I don't know how they make money. And that worries me. Right. What they have right now is it going to take for them to be around in two years? That's a great question. I don't know how they make money, and that worries me. Right. What they have right now is momentum. Yeah.

I don't think they have much else, but they do have momentum. Well, Blue Sky had momentum too. Oh, goodness. Sorry. I mean, they had momentum as well. I agree. Momentum is a fickle thing. Thread still has some momentum and they

have the best fighting chance but still yet like i don't see a massive drove move to the threads even it's just more fractured yeah i mean people are using it but it's not like everybody that was once on twitter slash x now x is on threads that there hasn't been a great migration right threads had a really good weekend and then it was like womp womp womp and i you know with the tv market and the social network market maybe it's a synonymous with the browser market every market's the same market that's what you're saying not just there's just these three well i mean we don't know what's going to happen with arc i was trying to find their uh the amount of enthusiasm they have by their users is really high.

So that's like a good thing for them to see. I was watching when you launch Arc, sometimes they have like new updates in the lower left-hand corner. I was looking for my tabs and I found this thing that was actually a link to a YouTube video of their CEO talking about their latest release and features.

Hundreds of thousands of views, probably more than Nick Nisi's event plus Tmux and pretty new. And so I see that and I think, wow, this guy has these people, but he's the founder and CEO. So he has a lot of interest and there's a spark there and there's users that love it.

And so that's a start. Now, is it enough? We don't know how they're going to make money. Like Nick says, maybe they'll just going to make money, like Nick says. Maybe they'll just turn on a subscription service like everybody else and a subset of their users will do it and then they'll have enough money. But I don't know.

They're probably VC backed and stuff. I don't know the business behind ARK at all. Hopefully they aren't VC backed. Yeah. Because then they'll probably have a better chance of surviving. But they do have a lot of people using it and a lot of people loving it. They have that early Firefox feel.

Not that they have the same principles or milieu that Firefox is coming from, but just that excited initial user base that turns into converters like we were. Do you think part of that is because they had that false, what do you call it? They had the exclusivity, right? You had to be invited to it. The private waitlist thing.

That's over now. Yeah, but did that help propel it? Like, ooh, what's this cool club? It might have. They did also have early users that would blog about it. Because they were in the club and they wanted to write and they tried it. I learned about it from Chris Coyier who was trying it before I was and spoke highly of it. I was like, well,

I respect his opinion. He seems to like it. At least he did back when he wrote about it. So that's a thing. I don't know if that's like the whole thing, because the exclusivity can give you that initial bulge, you know, that swell of interest.

But how long has it been since they've been available for everybody? It's at least months. And they have still people trying it and using it. Good for them. They're also not a sponsor. We don't know if they have any money to give us any of their money. I'm not going to use it

right now. Well, they're not going to sponsor us now, Jared. Well, I don't care. That's the whole thing. I'm just kidding with you. I'm a user. You're a user to sponsor us now, Jared. Well, I don't care. That's the whole thing. I'm just kidding with you. I'm a user. I mean, if we're given you're a user, I'm not a convert. I've been using it for a week. I like the idea of it.

I kind of want it to survive. It's a little guy. I like the little guy. But I'm pretty much back to Safari for life and Brave slash Chromium. Brave is the instance of Chromium I run. Because they rip out the google bits for me for dev and here's what keeps me on you know like newer mac world too like i have older macs i'm like i don't want to use them anymore because doesn't have touch id they're unusable yeah i

mean i have an older uh like a fairly old laptop that uh still touch ID. It's old, but not that old. It's Intel. But here's what keeps me is pay with Apple Pay, right? And Safari. That's like, if no one else can replicate that feature, it's going to keep me there for that alone as a daily driver. And it's just so simple. It's just such a minimal interface.

It's the TV. It's not Android TV. It's not the advertisement platform. It's just the TV, right? It's just such a minimal interface. It's, it's the TV. It's not Android TV. It's not the advertisement platform. It's just the TV, right? It's just a beautiful monitor. That's what Safari is for me. I don't need all the extras.

The only extension or plugin or whatever it is I have is one password, which would just be amazing. If it was like a, a baked in Apple thing, like they still haven't gotten passwords right. In my opinion, like it just, it's the worst buried in the settings app. on yes it's just the worst like they're not

even trying but even one password two i think has ux challenges as well like it's i love them it's the best way to do it but it's still not a good ux in every single case but i'm getting in one password with my biometric with my fingerprint you know i'm not having to and i'm buying things that way not that i'm buying a lot of stuff but when i do that process is so much easier i don't have to go and create an account i can bypass the account creation i can still use coupon codes in most cases for these stores so why would i not just use apple pay like it's so convenient not for the payment but for the not having to be creating an account necessarily to buy one-offs from random stores that are legitimate. Random stores.

Okay, here's a divisive question that this audience is perfectly attuned to answer because no one else can answer it probably. And that is what tab layout in Safari are you using? Yes, this is a question specifically for the three of us what um what are the options so i don't know what i'm using the options are separate or compact you go first nick i'm using compact oh my god and i like it and you also listen to x what a shame 3x 3x see we're not so the same. We're not simpatico, man. Here I thought we didn't have any diversity on this panel,

but now I'm starting to think we've got some. I mean, we've got two guys wearing the exact same pair of glasses on this. So our diversity points are way down on this particular episode. But I couldn't imagine using Compact. Are you serious? I didn't even know there was a Compact until you just told me that there's multiple tab layouts switch to it so what does compact do it puts them up in the toolbar higher and it does why do you like this but it also does things like it makes the top bar you

can control that with the site that you're on it can color that to a specific color so you could have like a seamless looking application running in your browser how do you control it because i go to change.com and it's still gray and i know we have like the what setting is that in your manifest or in your oh i do see that that i do like that nick it's amazing here's an example if you went to again i'm not advertising this it's just a tab I had opened. Raycast.com. In Safari with compact tabs. You're going to see what Nick's talking about. And maybe ours too, honestly.

Let me see if I can advertise us instead. No, ours is a different color. Well, it does make it green. Theirs isn't either for me. Hold on. Mine aren't changing. Is that another setting? In compact?

No, it's not. They're all gray. I just switched to compact, but they're still all gray. So that might be a separate setting, Nick. Help us troubleshoot. No, I don't think so. Even if you go to changelog.com. Let me spell it for you, Jared.

C-H. I'm on raycast.com. I'm on changelog.com. Really? What a shame. Try socket.dev. That's a good one. Also not a sponsor.

Yeah. But a good friend. Or nickneesey.com No they're all gray man They're all gray In compact mode are you sure You might have to restart Wait a second are you guys in night mode I'm in day mode Okay same

Like OS level settings I'm in light I'm in light os level settings night i'm in light where all hackers live i'm in light i i couldn't go there for everything i go light mode during the day night mode during the night i just feel like that's the way life should be it's nighttime it's the right time for darkness i'm dark mode in most cases for some things yeah i don't know if i have a separate like accessibility setting on or something but it's not happening for me anyways. This is turning into troubleshooting. I can see why you like it, Nick. That is a good point. But it just litters that

top bar up quite a bit. That's true. I don't know. If I could go back between separate versus compact. The separate just looks so old to me now. It is the old school way of doing it. I'm going to try compact for a little while. I'm done with Arc, but I'm going to try compact. See if I like it after a week. You might be onto something here. way of doing it i'm gonna try compact for a little while i'm done with arc but i'm gonna try compact

see if i like it after a week you might be onto something here this might be okay because i don't want to be so crotchety so rigid that i refuse to have any change in my life because at that point we should probably hang it up don't you think adam like if we both get there then we can't really do what we do well that's what i worry about i was telling my wife this other day i'm like babe i'm worried she's like why she telling my wife this the other day, I'm like, babe, I'm worried. She's like, why? She thought it was like a sickness or something. I'm like, I just realized that I'm becoming more and more cynical on certain things. And like that list has gotten bigger. And I'm like, I'm worried that like I'm just going to be totally cynical at some point in the near future.

Because I've just got opinions and I'm crotchety and stuck in my ways and I don't like change. So that doesn't lend well. She's like, that's okay. I'm like, okay, cool. That's okay. Good answer. What else are you going to say? Yeah, that's terrible.

She's like, I still love you. I feel the same exact way. And I'm glad that we're talking about something as simple as browsers and not other stuff. Right, more serious things like this TypeScript exodus. I mean, Nick has taken it personally. I mean, people are switching off of TypeScript and he just... Some random guy who's not relevant

switched off. I saw the perfect tweet against that and it was if this project mattered people would fork it, but there's no fork so it doesn't matter. Speaking of the perfect tweet now on our JS Party emergency pod, which by the time this drops, we'll have it gone out yesterday. So it's't matter. Speaking of the perfect tweet now on our JS party emergency pod, which by the time this drops,

we'll have con out yesterday. So it's in your feed. I'm not sure what it's called, but the JS party with Amal Hussein, myself, Nick was physically ill. He couldn't even handle it. So he didn't show up and rich Harris and rich actually reads aloud his quote

tweet of the guy who Nick doesn't want me to name, where he ends it with the word, which we're trying to figure out right now if we need to bleep it or not, I like it. So if you like that tweet, stay tuned for J.S. Pardew. Or go listen to it in the feed, because you'll hear Rich Harris read aloud his tweet, which includes that final word.

It's a perfect show title. Which we have to decide our policy i'm believing that i have to worry about my son too because he starts reading things now like he's seven he totally reads everything but he reads everything oh yeah so like just because it's not audible he's still like dad what is that uh there was a somebody cooking on i was watching something over the weekend i was doing some barbecue and they were cooking with duck fat. And he's like, Dad, I think that says the F-U-C-K word and fat. Like, why would they use that kind of fat? I'm like, for one, that's funny.

Off I letter. And two, that's not what it says, bud, okay? But it was duck fat. Hilarious. I read everything. So even the title as a, okay. One thing I want to mention, and I don't think we,

I didn't get that chance to highlight this because you said that tweet, that person said on the Fediverse somewhere, I think there, there is legs there for a Linux like take on the browser. I think that's the best chance we have to a browse that isn't an incumbent. This was Gabe Kangas. He's a listener of the show. It was just his idea. That's a best chance we have to a browser that isn't an incumbent. This was Gabe Kangas. He's a listener of the show. It was just his idea.

That's a great idea. I think a lot of what he said was spot on. And I think the way you're going to have a good incumbent or a good opportunity to take down an incumbent is going to be that way. That's the Linux version of a browser. Buy them for the people. Open source. Can't be bought. But it won't run on my phone. That them for the people. Open source.

Can't be bought. But it won't run on my phone. That's the only problem. Get a different phone, Nick. Well, didn't Fedora have like a web browser? We just talked to him. They have like a web browser, didn't they? Fedora?

No, it was WebOS. I'm wrong. Not Fedora. It was... WebOS. It was Debian. That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Oh, Debian. Debian.

Yeah. I don't know. It's just so I haven't heard in a long time. Oh, Debian. Debian. Yeah. I don't know. It's just so much work. Well, they're all just packaging Firefox, aren't they? Isn't Firefox kind of... If you download a Linux today... I haven't run Linux on the desktop for a long time. Adam, maybe you know.

You just download Ubuntu, and you say web browser. Are you launching Firefox pretty much? Or is there some other stock linux web browser that's in there there's something else but i think firefox is usually there too is the other thing chromium based i would be surprised oh chromium based yeah yeah i would think so what other open source browsers are there besides those two yeah all right well we have to let nick go because apple really wants him to go watch their keynote. I just feel like that's what Apple would want him to do.

Is there a keynote today? There is. There's a keynote today. It's coming up here in 15. Don't joke about that, Adam. What? Apple's not going to be happy with you if you don't know about their keynote. What's planned, Nick?

What's the leaks? Give us the inside scoop. That's late for Friday. Oh, you know, iPhone 15, USB-C, periscope camera, an action button, which is going to be amazing, instead of a mute switch. An action button? What's it going to do?

Anything you want it to? You can program it to do anything. You can program it to open your camera, to run a shortcut, do whatever. Oh, that's cool. So instead of this little toggle switch over here, it's an action button? Yeah. That's the rumor. How about new here, it's an action button? Yeah.

That's the rumor. How about new AirPods? I'm ready for some new AirPods. At least AirPods with a USB-C case. Or you can buy a case for your current AirPods. But no other changes, just a new case? I mean, that's the rumor. The software stuff doesn't leak nearly as easy

as the hardware stuff, because they don't have to make millions ahead of time. Right. So nothing super exciting just new iphone and little small upgrades the action button is kind of cool but uh the periscope camera i think will be cool 6x zoom which would be amazing does it literally come out no it like uses mirrors to like make the light travel down the length of the phone and then back up so it has more time in the lens. What? They're going to have a cool video about that.

Oh, yeah. I mean, they invented it, right? Right. I can't wait for the cool marketing name for it. It says Wanderlust. What does that mean, you think? They're running out of ideas. They needed a word that was vague and interesting.

Wanderlust. Is that vague and interesting? It's vague. Is it interesting? Well, it has the word lust in there and wander. I mean, those are both kind of interesting words. The Apple logo in that is kind of like a metallic dust type thing. Right.

I've heard, I don't know if this is true, but that they're using metallic 3D printing to do some pieces for the iPhone. So maybe it's related to that, but that seems pretty technical. 3D printing with like metal? Yeah. Yeah. That's totally a thing, right? Yeah, man.

I don't know. I thought it was like thin as dusting, like thin as snapped and the Apple's disintegrating. Oh, maybe. No more Apple. This is where Apple becomes a villain well by the time you're listening to this you already know exactly what they announced so your guys's speculation will sound naive well i had no idea there was an event today so there you go nick it's gonna be fun hey that's advancement adam maybe you're just getting

old and cynical you know less cares i guess about particular things so you're probably not going to get a new iphone oh i'm i'm uh my new rule is i i even hate to say this because like i'll probably be attracted to it i want it but i'll delay it for like a year and the reason why i tend to get newer phones is usually for the camera so obviously i want the latest one yeah but i've learned over the last two times I bought phones, I can always get like 800 bucks off a phone if I just wait one year. So if I'm a year behind, I could save a ton of money on the phone. And I like to save that money.

I really want a new one. I really want a new one just because of USB-C. Like throw away all of my lightning, except for these stupid AirPods Max that I have. Aw. Be careful, Nick. Apple would not want you calling those stupid. So lightning's gone forever at this point.

It's USB-C all the way. That is the rumor. And I think it's mandated at this point by the... I was going to say, weren't they forced by the EU to do that? Yeah. But also, that might be an interesting announcement that might have an effect on browsers and I think it's mandated at this point by the... I was going to say, weren't they forced by the EU to do that? But also that might be an interesting announcement that might have an effect on browsers. Isn't it in the EU or at least some countries where they're going to have to allow sideloading?

Oh, that I don't know. Hello native other browsers. Yes. But probably not for us because we don't have those regulations. You think they would allow it just there and not here? Yeah, because they do that with other things. You can do alternative payments in Norway for dating apps or something like that. Very specific things.

Yeah. Gosh, it must be difficult to be such a global software company. Where you have to deal with these statutes in each country that you're operating in. Not for me. Not for me. Not for me. Software is more complicated than enough. Thankfully, we're just an indie media company, you know? Yeah.

We just talk about this stuff. We don't have to go do it. That's right. All right, Nick, where can people find you besides JS Party and the world famous Vim With Me video series that's going to be coming out? Where do people connect with you nowadays? Those are perfect places. But if those don't work, literally everywhere else. I'm Nick Nacy.

Just look for Nick Nacy, you'll find him. Literally everywhere else on every social network there is. Except for TikTok. I hate TikTok because they stole my name. They did? I mean, I got on early enough that it wasn't tied to an account. It was tied to your phone. And then I got a your phone and then i

got a new iphone and i lost that and you can't recover it yeah i've tried and they like they're like oh send us something and then they just never respond so username at nick neesey on tiktok is taken by you that you can't recover yes so i'm nick dot neesey which is oh terrible painful better than a hyphen here's what i've learned about tiktok no one cares about usernames on that platform oh on that platform on that platform it's more about the quality of the content than it is the username which i kind of like it democratizes like all the constraints you have is a great like oh must have the right domain name must have the right username you're. It takes that out of there.

Nice. Maybe my hope will be restored for that. Yeah. So nick.neesey coming soon to TikTok, which is them with me videos. Although I did see a video yesterday where if you have a dot in your name, people are kind of against that.

Always. They don't care about usernames at all. Jared's face for like a split second was like, no way. Yeah, well, I was catching up kind of in the sentence because I was thinking about something else. I was trying to catch up with your sentence. And once I realized it, I was like, oh, good one, dude. That's a good one, yeah.

All right. Should we say goodbye? Yeah. Bye, Nick. Bye, friends. This was fun. Yeah, man. Welcome back anytime.

Post hoi hoi. Ahoy hoy. Hey, hey. There he is. He finally showed up bye friends cheese all plus plus it's better it's better we forgot to get nick's review of the horse browser on the show but we did remember right after we stopped recording so we hit record, but it gets a little dicey. So we're keeping it to just ChangeLog++ people. If you're interested in making the ads disappear,

hearing extended episodes like this one, and directly supporting our work, ChangeLog++ is for you. And if you'd love to support us but don't have the cash, maybe your work has a professional development budget. Lots of people are using that to increment their changelog experience. Sign up today at changelog.com slash plus plus. It's better! Next week on The Changelog, news on Monday, an interview with Stephen O'Grady from Red Monk on Wednesday, and no Friends episode on Friday. Sorry, but we'll be at Strangeloop.

Have a great weekend, and let's talk again real soon.