The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - Wine Web and a whole lot of Whatnot (Friends)

Episode Date: November 1, 2024

We join the Whiskey Web and Whatnot podcast live from the hallway track at All Things Open 2024. Topics include: Chianti, content creation, open source, fake jobs, cancel culture, Silicon Valley (ding), frontend frustrations, the Roman empire & more.

Welcome to Changelog and Friends, a weekly talk show about Marcus Aurelius. Big thanks to our partners at Fly.io, the home of changelog.com. Launch your app on Fly in five minutes or less. Learn how at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk. What's up, nerds? I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Fly. You know we love Fly.

So Kurt, I want to talk to you about the magic of the cloud. You have thoughts on this, right? Right. I think it's valuable to understand the magic behind a cloud because you can build better features for users, basically, if you understand that. You can do a lot of stuff, particularly now that people are doing LLM stuff,

but you can do a lot of stuff if you get that and can be creative with it. So when you say clouds aren't magic because you're building a public cloud for developers and you go on to explain exactly how it works, what does that mean to you? In some ways, it means these all came from somewhere. Like there was a simpler time before clouds where we'd get a server at Rackshack and we'd SSH or Telnet into it even and put files somewhere and run the web servers ourselves to serve them up to users. Clouds are not magic on top of that. They're just more complicated ways

of doing those same things in a way that meets the needs of a lot of people instead of just one. One of the things I think that people miss out on, and a lot of this is actually because AWS and GCP have created such big black box abstractions. Like Lambda is really black boxy. You can't like pick apart Lambda and see how it works from the outside. You have to sort of just use what's there. But the reality is like Lambda is not all that complicated. It's just a modern way to launch little VMs and serve some requests from them and let them like kind of pause and resume and free up like physical compute time. The interesting thing about understanding how clouds work is it lets you build kind of features for your users you never would expect it. And our canonical version of this for us is that

like when we looked at how we wanted to isolate user code, we decided to just expose this machines concept, which is a much lower level abstraction of Lambda that you could use to build Lambda on top of. And what machines are is just these VMs that are designed to start really fast or designed to stop and then restart really fast or designed to suspend sort of like your laptop does when it closes and resume really fast when you tell them to. And what we found is that giving people as primitive as actually there's like new apps being built that couldn't be built before, specifically because we went so low level

and made such a minimal abstraction on top of generally like Linux kernel features. A lot of our platform is actually just exposing a nice UX around Linux kernel features, which I think is kind of interesting. But like you still need to understand what they're doing to get the most use out of them. Very cool.

Okay, so experience the magic of Fly and get told the secrets of Fly because that's what they want you to do. They want to share all the secrets behind the magic of Fly and get told the secrets of Fly because that's what they want you to do. They want to share all the secrets behind the magic of the Fly cloud, the cloud for productive developers, the cloud for developers who ship. Learn more and get started for free at fly.io. Again, fly.io. We are back from All Things Open 2024, and it was so much fun. Shout out to everyone who stopped by our booth, said hi, shaked hands, or even gave us a hug.

There was only one hugger, believe it or not. Hi, Paloma. If you missed the conf, this episode will at least give you an idea of what the hallway track was like. We sat down with our friends Robbie the Wagner and Charles William Carpenter III, who we call Chuck, to record an episode of their Whiskey, Web, and Whatnot podcast. Only at All Things Open, it had to be the Wine, Web, and Whatnot podcast because rules, I guess. But it was a lot of fun regardless.

If you haven't heard their show, it's kind of like changelogging friends, only R-rated, focused on web dev, and there's 100% more boos per episode. The plan was to do an episode of their show, then an episode of ours, but we ran out of time, so this one recording will have to do. Thankfully, Chuck said we could bleep him, so this might go down as the most bleeped episode in changelog history. Okay, enough setup. Here we go. Should I fill some air here? Yes, please.

All right, welcome to Wine Web and Whatnot, which is formerly known as Whiskey Web and Whatnot, but cannot do whiskey at this conference venue at this time so we have some wine at this time Chuck is trying to get it open it's very hard can you even doing a fine job I can see you a little bit you maybe should scooch this way a bit we're kind of kind of cut off but the

camera can see us I don't know what the real maybe it's because I we're all on there nice of you good shot we have a special guest with us you may recognize from Yeah, we're all on there. We're good. Nice of you. It's a good shot. What was I saying? Yeah, we have a special guest with us you may recognize from another podcast.

I think it's called Shop Talk Show. Is that correct? No comment. How do I get out of here? No, seriously. Yeah, do you guys want to introduce yourselves and tell the folks a little bit about what you do? I am the sommelier of the show opening this wine That voice you just heard is

Adam Sikowiak My name is Jared Santo We are co-hosts of the ChangeLog podcast and we are open books that you can read with your ears by speaking to us. Oh, that should be your tagline. Open books you can read with your ears. How many dives does it take?

Are you guys okay over there? I think they broke the cork. It's broken. All right, so our wine today is full of cork, but it is an Italian wine. I believe a Chianti Classico Reserva. It is. Yes. From somewhere.

I can't. Where's it from, Chuck? We are not drinking that. Yeah. They can get it off. Today's episode is sponsored by corkscrews. Need one? We do.

And basic education. I've got it. Yeah, we'll get it. We'll get there. Good, good, good. Once you get it, we do. And basic education. I've got it. Yeah, we'll get it. We'll get there. Good, good, good. Once you get it, thread it. You can just push it through. Well, it's a little more loosey-goosey for right now.

Wait, wait. Tell me you're an avid listener, right? Of course. I heard you guys when you were on my show, JS Party. I definitely listened to that one. I heard us there, too. Yeah, that's nice. You guys were awesome. I still think we should have won that. I definitely listened to that one. I heard us there, too. I still think we should have won that.

I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure. It was the screen size one. What are the common screen sizes people use? That was a really bad question. Turns out you have to say ranges. It was a fun time, though.

That was fun. And travel. What are you whispering about? These guys are, like, having their own conversation over there. It's super awkward. You guys know we're recording right now, right? Yeah, yeah. You guys were talking over us, so we just went ahead and had a side conversation.

We were having, like, a show. No side to chat. Well, this episode is brought to you by drinks.com. Drinks.com. If you're a wino on the road. Drinks.com. That is such a good domain. That is drinks.com. It's a travel tour that is

like a pliable disc that you just kind of roll up and put it in your wine. I thought roll up was for like bundling JavaScript. Is that not it? Not anymore. I'm just going to pass

them down. When you think about drinks.com, D-R-I-N-K-S, that is a six-letter domain. It's probably hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is for you. It made me think of x.com, which probably cost in the millions,

but a billion. Am I the only one that thinks that that's too short? Yeah. It's lopsided. The X is just one letter. And then the.com is actually more substantial. I just feel like you shouldn't go less than three. Yeah.

It has to be something you can search for. For SEO, if you go X. I know. Well, maybe that works. I haven't tried to search X. If you want to find their X can search for. That's my hot take. For SEO, if you go X. I know. Well, maybe that works. I haven't tried to search X. If you want to find their X account, fine.

Yeah. If you want to find their double S account, also okay. Yeah. Like find me at Q.com. But you stop right there. Good legs in this one. Yeah. I haven't had any yet.

Okay, so we're having the Capraia Chianti Classico Reserva. It is DOCG which means organic but that is good in Italy and terrible in the States. Just a heads up there. It's the 2018 so it's got some age to it and there you go. Get to it. Little sniff. How is it on the nose? Well it's better in the

mouth. Okay well you start there. That's what she said. Is that kind of show? Oh yeah. Say whatever you want. Unedited, unfiltered. Uncancellable, by the way. You can sue me for zero. Can I say things I don't want?

Sure. This wine. No, just kidding. Not bad. Yeah, drinkable. Serviceable. That's how I would describe it. Serviceable. I'm not a big Chianti guy. I am Italian, though, so it's kind of backwards. What Italian wine do you like?

Oh, no, I mean I'm Italian genetically. I'm not Italian. Yeah, yeah, Italian wine. I mean, you have to like some Italian things, right? Well, 100%. Now you're going to tell me you don't like pizza, right? Oh, I love pizza. I had some pizza last night.

It was spectacular. How much does this wine cost? Is that, you can say whatever you want, right? Yeah, we can say whatever we want me you don't like pizza, right? Oh, I love pizza. I had some pizza last night. It was spectacular. How much does this wine cost? You can say whatever you want, right? Yeah, we can say whatever we want. I don't know. What was this, like $30, $35? $30-ish. Yeah.

Okay. Not zero, but not super fancy. Do you get wine for zero? No, no. But I mean, you can get a five or a $10. If you guys get big enough, you can get free whiskey at least. Yeah. Yes.

That's the end goal. Is that the... There you go. There's at least. Yes, that's the end goal. There you go. There's your North Star. We're way off track here. Okay, so we're having alcohol. We've introduced the alcohol. We've tasted it, but we haven't talked about it. What are the notes you're getting?

Any tasting notes. Mr. Charles William Carpenter. Thank you. Okay, there we go. It's very dry, which is what I don't like about Chianti a lot of times. I don't mind a full body, which this does have, but it's finished. Just makes me feel like I needed a chunk of water. I thought it was Italian.

Italian. Anyway. That was a Finnish joke. Oh, I got it. Sorry, Chuck. Yeah. Um, hi. I'm glad we're doing your podcast next.

Maybe not because, man, I am going to f*** that shit up. Unlike yours, you can't say whatever you want on our show. I know. Yeah. Yes. We will bleep you. I apologize. I interrupted you, but it was a good show.

It's part of it. No, it's all good. So, very fruity in the start, very dry in the finish, not a whole lot in between for me. It's all right. I mean, I'm sure it's a nice Chianti I like you Jared though don't prefer them so we have a highly technical rating here on the show

you guys may have forgotten from the last episode you listened to 0 to 8 tentacles 0 being terrible obviously 4 middle of the road would have again but not amazing 8 clear the shelves this is for me you can categorize however you want with that you can say to other wines Four, middle of the road, would have again, but not amazing. Eight, clear the shelves. This is for me.

You can categorize however you want with that. You can say to other wines, alcohol in general. It doesn't matter. Like I said, not too crazy there. For me, this, I don't love Chianti's. This is probably a little better than, like, your standard table Chianti, though. So I'm going to give it a five. Yeah.

We can go down the line if you like. I'll go next. Yes. I would say that the Chianti. I almost said Conti. Which is so close to the other version that, can we say that on the show? I mean, it is a March adult. Yeah. How is it on the show well i mean it is a marx adult yeah how is it on the scale for you i would say on the chianti side i am not a

i'm not a chianti kind of guy i'm more of a red blend a very simple wine drinker i like blends a lot i like texas blends a lot okay like california blends a lot. I like Texas blends a lot. I like California blends a lot. I like a Malbec. That's my style. It goes well with steak. It goes well with Solo by itself.

It's generally not very expensive. I would say because of the reasons I don't really care for Chianti, this is dry. I would say it's low on my list. I would never buy of the reasons I don't really care for Chianti, this is dry. I would say it's low on my list. I would never buy this again or drink it. Will you finish this cup? Is it good enough to finish?

Yeah, I'll drink it with you. Yeah, we got to crush this bottle. I'll drink it with you, but I'm not excited to go out and get a bottle of this very fine Caprea. Caprea. Caprea. Chianti Classico Reserva. 2018. Yeah. Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri...

Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Capri... Thank you for sharing it, but it's not my favorite. Yeah.

It's the first time I've had it, too, so, you know, you take a roll of the dice when you go to the Wegmans in Raleigh. Did you give it tentacles? Oh. Two tentacles. Oh. Okay. 2.5.

He didn't spit it out, so there's that. Yeah. tentacles. 2.5. He didn't spit it out, so there's that. I will echo Chuck in his analysis, and I will subtract one point. I will give four tentacles, but for the exact same reasons. That's fair. The fan, the actual fan. Where are you?

He's a fan? No, he bought this. I like Chianti. I don't like the Classico Reserve. Yeah. That's supposed to be fancier. I like the normal Chianti. So I got the one that was supposed to be fancier, you know, to have better stuff.

But, yeah, it's not my favorite either. I would give it more than a two. I think four is pretty appropriate. Yeah, maybe four and a half. I was being a jerk. You can do halves? Yeah, you absolutely can. Does that change and a half. I was being a jerk. Do you do halves? Yeah, you absolutely can. Does that change anything for you?

I stand by my four. Where did you land? Did you say four also? Yeah, yeah. Four seems reasonable. Can I interject maybe another rule into your grading system? Sure. How much would you pay for it?

Not what you paid for, but how much would you pay for it? See, that's the problem, too, because in Italy, this would be 10, 15 euro. Oh, easily. Wine is way cheaper. And so it's double or more here. So the pricing is all inflated. Yeah. I think 10 or 15 euro is pretty good for that.

15 bucks. Yeah. Do you disagree with that assessment? Well, he would say he would never buy it. Yeah. I would never buy it. Pretty good for that. $15. Yeah. Do you disagree with that assessment? Well, he would say he would never buy it. Yeah. I would never buy it. Or drink it. What would you pay?

$10. $10. Yeah. And that wouldn't be crazy right in Italy. Yeah. Jared, what part of Italy is your family from? Sicily. The boot.

Oh. Way down. The island. Yeah, and don't piss you off because you got people. That's right. That's right. I've seen the Godfather. Do not cross me.

I will make you an offer you cannot refuse. Because you'll be dead. So here we are. Actually, it's growing on me now that I'm sipping it a bit. Yeah? Alcohol will do that. It's smoothing. It's smoothing out.

Wait until it ends last. You get past that dry part, it's smoothing out. Yeah. It's airing it out a little bit. It's gotten a bit more tart in the center for me. You know, it was like sweet at first, like jammy sweet, and then it starts to get a little more like sour in the middle for me. Anyway.

That's deep. We are drinking it out of the best glassware for this. Yeah. So that helps. This is Tupperware's finest. Glassware is a stretch, isn't it? They're not red. I was like, we just can't get red.

We can't get red cups. That's all. I was like, come on. We're classier than that. We're better than that. We deserve that. Yeah, there's a podcast over there, too. There's a number of them.

This is Podcast Alley. Yeah, some here, some some down there some up there it's kind of fun so the bit that that takes me into what I think some of the things

I thought it would be good for us to do okay let's get into it yeah just to the just do it and we're all creating

content online right doing kind of our thing correct in various areas some more successfully than others. I don't think it's limited to podcasting because you have plenty of folks who do live streaming.

There's a lot of learning content out there. There are short-form things. Do you think, and I'm going to ask this question to both of you so you can each take an answer at it. That inherently within development for the betterment of your career, figuring out how to create content, is that necessary to really stand out and gain a career within web development as a whole? Or I'll leave that open-ended the second part. Right. Good question. I don't think so. I think for a certain class of people, it makes a lot of sense.

I think it can certainly accelerate a career. There are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, of very, very successful software developers who do not do any content at all. Yeah. And I think they would raise their hand and say, not necessary, guys, because I'm doing it without doing that. However, it's a great avenue. Yeah.

I agree. No, it didn't. I think it depends on what the person is optimizing for. If they're trying to get to be a famous developer or notoriety, then I think, yeah, you probably want to create some content. I think you're probably going to put yourself out there. You're going to be flashy. You're going to do things. You're going to be provocative, potentially, in your own way. And I think if you want to be that kind of well-known developer, that kind of successful developer,

then I think you're probably going to create some content. But if you want to be a developer who is behind the scenes, necessary, maybe even cog-like, potentially, then I think that you don't need to worry about any content. You can just show up and do your thing and be a useful cog and be a great team member and deliver great software and care about customers. And that's all you got to so related what do you think about open source is doing open source stuff helpful at all to a career other than learning the skill

like for the notoriety standpoint is it helpful I certainly think it is obviously you can have more or less success with open source

and yet it's a great way to be able to point at something that you've done success with open source and yet it's a great way to be able to point at something that you've done or built which is not proprietary or needs permission from your previous employer so there's a lot of advantages even just in that

and of course there's opportunity to raise your clout in the community by having a successful project or participating in one so I think it absolutely is is where I thought you were going to go with that. Maybe you're headed there. Is that content creation is open source creating content because kind of, kind of it is, but it's also kind of not. So I don't know.

It kind of is. I think it's, I think it's content code. The question is, is, is being involved in or shipping open source or contributing, what was the question again, Robbie? What was the question? It was too far back there.

Yeah, is open source, not from learning the skill perspective, but just from my GitHub screen and I'm trying to build my brand, is doing open source really helpful for that? I think it goes back to my original answer with the other one, which is if you're trying to be more out there and more of a well-known person, famous or infamous,

then I think having a flashy GitHub profile that shows off the things you care about is going to be very helpful. Whether it's for making friends, whether it's making new network connections that lead to job opportunities or a co-founder or whatever it might be, then yeah. But if you want to be a developer who's behind the scenes, not necessary. I mean, you may have a profile, but you may not care if it's fleshed out

in terms of, hey, this is Adam Stachowiak and what he cares about. Go look at my GitHub profile. It's basically abandoned. I mean, like, I don't do a lot of open source besides our own contributions, and that's limited. So I did do a lot of stuff in open source, but I have not done a lot in terms of code contributions. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess maybe I'm not asking the question the exact right way here. not done a lot in terms of co-contributions. Yeah. Yeah. I guess maybe the, maybe I'm not asking the question the exact right way here. So I have done a lot of open source stuff. I don't think it has helped my brand at all. Or like when I try to go get a job at a company, they're not like, oh, cool. I've seen you online. Let's hire you. You're still the same interviews as everyone else.

Like, right, right. So, okay. you you're still the same interviews as everyone else like right right so okay and I think all of this is kind of under the umbrella of building reputation yeah they're all different ways to potentially build that reputation and then like you said Adam it's kind of optimizing for what kind of outcomes within that reputation you want like I can come here and drink whiskey and talk and that might gave me some popularity but no one's gonna know what I can come here and drink whiskey and talk s**t and that might gave me some popularity, but no one's going to know what I can do for them professionally unless they're hiring me to do that

thing, right? So you're building reputation in multiple avenues and open source is another one of those potential things. But you know, you got to optimize for the outcome that you want. Although I will say that like if you want to be a cog in the wheel, collect the paycheck that you're given and stay quietly tucked in the corner, you can do that. But your options are limited because the scope of the reputation you're building is within now your current company. So then that comes to be, remember they used to try to force a lot of web developers to have portfolios. And it's like, what am I showing you with a portfolio necessarily? Like, that's just like, I could read a book and do the project in it and push that out that doesn't necessarily show that same thing but it's all about reputation and figuring it out how for us

as developers how do we like showcase that without going through you know six loops and a whiteboard like what does that look like because an architect doesn't have to prove themselves in an interview. They have a reputation because they went through the schooling and maybe built these three buildings. So what is... I think I would almost take these initial questions back one step and it's like, what clever ways do you think, or what ways do you think are necessary as folks who do want to just like, I want to supercharge my career and I'm really good at this thing I'm doing. How do I build reputation for that?

And a lot of people are doing learning content to show it, but sometimes they show up to podcasts. But what else is it for us to prove we're good enough or get people to know us in a way that they want to work with us? Great question. I think reputation in a lot of ways is in the eye of the beholder. And so to tie back to what Robbie said, we've talked with hundreds of open source developers over the years. and for every person who feels the way that you do, like it hasn't meaningfully moved the needle for you, like your reputation based on your open source has not preceded you into those situations, there's somebody else who,

we've heard the stories over and over again, they can either directly or indirectly tie their current career, their current status to their open source project. So like, it's not a guarantee, but it does work. It is a way to gain reputation if you're successful at using it in that way. How best to gain reputation I think is completely subjective and contextual, and I don't know if I can give a blanket answer, but Adam might be able to.

How do you do it, Adam? Tell us. I never heard of him until today, so I don't think he's doing a good job. Right. I think that's... He's in his GitHub? It's weak.

His Bitbucket, though, is on fire. Yeah, it was. Sorry, Forge. Oh, yeah. Gain reputation. I think you show up, and you do what you think you can do, and you do it well, and you rinse and repeat, and that gets you reputation. I think that also there's a publicness to this world we're living in.

In one way, shape, or form, there's a socialness and a transparency that's required to show off who you are and what you're capable of doing. I think your analogy of the architect not being scrutinized, I'm paraphrasing, but at the same time, that person contributed in some way, shape, or form to several buildings, using your example. So those buildings are their portfolio. In some way, shape, or form, you've got to show off what you say you're able to do and prove you can do that. Enough so to gain the trust to get the opportunity and then deliver. And reputation is formed by doing that again and again and again until you are popular enough that you have a reputation to precede you. What's up, friends? I'm here with a friend of mine, a good friend of mine, Michael Greenwich, CEO and founder of WorkOS.

WorkOS is the all-in-one enterprise SSO and a whole lot more solution for everyone from a brand new startup to a enterprise and all the AI apps in between. So Michael, when is too early or too late to begin to think about being enterprise ready? It's not just a single point in time where people make this transition. It occurs at many steps of the business. Enterprise single sign-on, like SAML, Auth, you usually don't need that until you have users. You're not going to need that when you're getting started. And we call it an enterprise feature, but I think what you'll find is there's companies when you sell to like a 50 person company, they might want this. They actually, especially if they care about security, they might want that capability in it. So it's more of like

SMB features even if they're tech forward. At WorkOS, we provide a ton of other stuff that we give away for free for people earlier in their life cycle. We just don't charge you for it. So that AuthKit stuff I mentioned, that identity service, we give that away for free up to a million users. One million users. And this competes with Auth0 and other platforms that have much, much lower free plans. I'm talking like 10,000, 50,000, like we give you a million free because we really want to give developers the best tools and capabilities to build their products faster, you know, and to go to market much, much faster.

And where we charge people money for the service is on these enterprise things. If you end up being successful and grow and scale up market, that's where we monetize. And that's also when you're making money as a business. So we really like to align our incentives across that. So we have people using AuthKit that are brand new apps, just getting started companies in Y Combinator, side projects, hackathon things, you know, things that are not necessarily commercial focus, but could be someday they're kind of future-proofing their tech stack by using WorkOS. On the other side, we have companies much, much later that are really big, who typically don't like us talking about them, their logos, you know, because they're big, big customers. But they say, hey, we tried to build

this stuff, or we have some existing technology, but we're sort of unhappy with it. The developer that built it maybe has left. I was talking last week with a company that does over a billion in revenue each year, and their SCIM connection, the user provisioning, was written last summer by an intern who's no longer obviously at the company. And the thing doesn't really work. And so they're looking for a solution for that. So there's a really wide spectrum. We'll serve companies that are in their offices in a coffee shop or their living room all the way through. They have their own building in downtown San Francisco or New York or something.

And it's the same platform, same technology, same tools on both sides. The volume is obviously different. And sometimes the way we support them from a kind of customer support perspective is a little bit different. Their needs are different, but same technology, same platform, just like AWS, right? You can use AWS and pay them $10 a month. You can also pay them $10 million a month, same product. Or more, for sure. Or more. Well, no matter where you're at on your enterprise ready journey, WorkOS has a solution for you. They're trusted by Perplexity, Copy.ai, Loom, Vercel, Indeed, and so many more. You can learn more and check them out at WorkOS.com. That's W-O-R-K-O-S.com. Again, WorkOS dot com. And also by our friends over at Wix,

I've got just 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio, the web platform for freelancers, agencies, and enterprises. So here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less on Studio. Number one, integrate, extend, and write custom scripts in a VS Code-based IDE. Two, leverage zero setup dev, test, and production environments. Three, ship faster with an AI code assistant. And four, work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack. Wix Studio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Well, my time is up, but the list keeps going on. Step into Wix Studio and see for yourself. Go to wix.com slash studio. Once again, wix.com slash studio.

Do you think our industry would benefit from a national organization of certification rather than the subjectivity from company to company? Like, we all, you know, lack of a better term, say there's a national union of web developers or developers, programmers, whatever you want to call it, and the standards aren't just determined by Amazon and their processes and Oracle and their things and so on and so forth.

Like independent organizations, do you think a centralized one would be a way to kind of solve that? Because I've proven it in the way we all agree. Possibly. Hesitantly, possibly. Very hesitantly, though. However, one of the things about our industry is it's so young and while there are

common maladies between different kinds of software it's changing still at a very rapid pace, it's very difficult to certify and to stay certified in a way that's productive around something

that moves that quickly. I don't see it slowing down anytime soon. I know there are efforts to come out with certifications. Those are all good. A national certification that we all agree to, I don't know. I get skeptical of those kind of efforts, personally. Yeah. But it's not very capitalist, I can say that.

No. I think what I like about our industry is that it's one of the few where you can just show up and do and be good at it and get a job. If you could produce a good outcome, you're hired. Whereas. I disagree. Are you currently looking? No, no. How do you disagree? Interviewing is a completely separate skill from being a developer, in my opinion.

And I am trash at interviewing, but I think I'm a pretty good developer. Okay. What I mean, though, so his question is not about the interview. It is about the certification that says I'm good enough. And so I like the fact that I don't have to go out necessarily and get a computer science degree. Sure. That says that's the gate, and therefore I have the pass, and so I get through the gate. Right.

Yeah. So that's where I'm coming from is that if you can produce, if you can do, if you can learn, if you can learn by doing and show up and do it, you have access. That's true. It's not controlled by certification or degree or this or that. It's literally you're curious enough in this young industry we have

to show up and be curious and find a path and forge that path, make a network and do, and you're in for the most part. Right. Yeah. There is no true gatekeeper aside from opportunity and doing the job. But the interview process does suck. Yes. So we're not going to disagree on that.

Yeah. From like a working agreements perspective of like, you've shown you can do this job, not the interview aspect or everything else. I completely agree with Adam there is that that is a benefit of it is that I'm not like kept out by, you know, the equivalent of law school and residency for medical people and all this

else. And renewals, renewals of certificate. Yeah. Like you have to repass the bar exam or be current on X to be Y. We don't have that necessarily. There's some parts of our industry that may have versions of that. But by and large, for the most part, if you can be a software engineer or a developer or a producer

or whatever you want to frame that person as, you can do the job and you get the job, and you get paid well for the most part. Yeah, and you also can use these tools to launch a business for a pretty low cost. I mean, it's got to be one of the cheapest small businesses that you could potentially... Yeah, it's software. Yeah, it's software, and anybody potentially can do that. And I agree with that, because in the sense that the gatekeepers, in comparison to the lawyer, doctor and all that other stuff.

And obviously we're not saving lives. So, you know, no humans are harmed by this. So, of course, we don't need those kind of gates per se. So it's a great counterpoint, I think, to that thing. But, yeah, like Robbie and Jared alluded to or just straight up said, now the interviews, which are separate from all of that altogether, and where there are books and certifications to learn how to interview at Google or something like that, and I say that because we have the badges. The lanyard.

Yeah, the lanyard. That's the fancy word. So that is something else altogether, which is a little bit ridiculous. You can almost just separate them. I have to learn to interview to get past, and then I can just do my job well. Yeah, the interview is nothing like the job. What happens to the days of, like, you know, the guy in the hoodie who sits in the corner eating Funyuns, chugging Mountain Dew, but he's crushing it.

But, you know, he's not leveling up his team around him. They've kind of been shifted out of the industry in a lot of ways. Lone Wolf has really looked down upon him. Yeah, yeah. That's an interesting thing to me because to what you said, those are people who know it and can get the job done, but I don't want to go get a beer with them, so f*** them. Well, the job isn't merely writing the code,

which is what the lone wolf thinks it is. And so there's more to the job than many of us want there to be. Sure. And because many of us are socially awkward and not skilled in that area, we'd rather talk to computers than talk to humans. I understand

that sentiment. I've felt that way even right now, currently. I might be feeling that way. But that's not anymore. Maybe it once was because you had one engineer in your entire business or one system in who just ran the entire

network. That's just ran the entire network, that's just not the reality of the job anymore. And so that's why I think those people are marginalized is because, yeah, they aren't fit in the entire bill. But agree that the interview process just doesn't actually interview you for the job that you're going to do, which can be maddening, especially when it's difficult, like right now,

it's not easy to get that job. When it was easier, you know, yeah, you had to go through some rigmarole and some leak code and some other crap, but then you got the job at the end of it, so it's kind of like, okay. Yeah, the leak code is eight rounds, and then they're like, thanks, we've chosen other candidates.

Exactly. Or fake jobs. That's a thing, yeah, fake jobs are a thing. It's not Steve Jobs. Or fake jobs. That's a thing, yeah. Fake jobs are a thing. Tell me more about fake jobs. It's not Steve Jobs' brother. Okay. Hi, my name's Steve. This is my brother, Fake.

On a recent episode of Change Looking Friends with Johnny Borsico, a panelist on GoTime, he shared his insights to fake jobs. And I think paraphrasing versions of what he said was essentially there's companies out there that act as if they're hiring because it helps them with their bottom line terms of investors. It looks good. So they have these jobs out there collecting resumes and keeping, in quotes, keeping these resumes and these people warm, but still looking for the perfect ideal candidate. Meanwhile, they've got 15 possible really good candidates that they're not hiring. Yeah.

So that totally sucks. Which is a side effect of VCs using hiring as a health metric. So VCs began using that, which kind of makes some sense, right? Like, well, if they're hiring, they must be growing. Companies growing. Yeah, so a lot of VCs are looking for a way to judge. Yeah. And then, however, whose law is this? Goodhart, perhaps?

Goodhart, yeah. This is the one where any measure that becomes known ceases to be a good measure. And so companies realize, well, we're going to look better to VCs if we're hiring. And so we can't actually hire, or maybe we have one position, but we'll put out eight. And we'll just be very picky. And we'll just get thousands of applicants.

And meanwhile, all of us are out there applying like plebs, and their jobs aren't even real. Yeah, that's annoying. Wasting our time. Yeah, three months later, you get a, we've reviewed your resume and decided you're not a good fit for this one. And Yeah, that's annoying. Wasting our time. Yeah, three months later, you get a, we've reviewed your resume and decided you're not a good fit for this one. And really, they probably didn't.

Why would you get anything back? That's more than you usually get. That's actually kind of kind. Yeah. Thanks for letting me know. I can cross this one off my list. Right. Yeah.

Then you get into the position where you're like, we should regulate this then. Just like your certification question. We should regulate this. We should make sure these jobs are real before they can post a job. That is not a word I want to live in either.

Overregulation is not conducive to a free-moving market. Right? So, the alternative is just to suck it up, I guess. Or just call foul heavily when we find out true examples of fake jobs, not Steve Jobs. Fake, though, fake is a genius.

So call them out, say, publicly, you discovered this. Like, fuck LinkedIn. They've got eight job postings, and I know someone on the inside. Turns out they're all lies. Don't bother applying there in that kind of way like shaming there because they care about image and perception i don't want to be a cancel culture pile on kind of guy yeah but i feel like if it's egregious yes and it's like maybe even multiple fences we wouldn't do it i would say jared i would probably just walk away and just be like, whatever.

I think somebody I've seen do this semi-well and respectfully is Gerge Oros. He's called out several companies for various hiring practices, various things, even the whole WP Engine, WordPress situation in Moloweg. I think he does a pretty fair job of holding people to a line. It's not my demeanor. I don't think it's Jared's demeanor. We've had a couple examples in our lives when we've been

marginalized by a very large company who we would say were part of the community. We were told we're not welcomed. And we didn't say anything. We just walked away. We turned to the cheek. Until now. Listen, our three or four listeners would love to know

right now. Shout out to George, Paul, and Fake. Those are your three listeners, right? Yeah, Fake Jobs is a big fan. He's worked on Pair AI, I think. Yeah, it's just a fork of Steve.

Anyway, yeah, nerd fights and fork culture is a very interesting thing lately, too. It is. It is. You bring up WP Engine and all that, but I'm sorry if you were going to go with... Well, I just don't want to be for the cancel culture, necessarily. I don't think it's necessarily helpful to ad nauseum just cancel something or ad nauseum, not ad nauseum.

I don't think, I knew in your brain, Jared, you were like, it's ad nauseum, Adam. We worked together long enough. I just let it go. I'm like, oh, he'll stop. He'll catch himself. He'll make it a big talking point, which just happened.

Ad nauseum. I don't necessarily subscribe to cancel culture. I don't want to be canceled. I don't want to cancel somebody. I believe in forgiveness. I think people make mistakes. Yeah, I agree with that. Sure. And I want to see redemption because I'm a believer, a firm believer in redemption.

Well, I think there's a big difference between cancer culture of individuals. Cancer? Yeah, cancer culture. That was a Freudian slip. Cancer culture. Did I say cancer? You did. Yeah, I just, you know. Okay. I like it. Cancer culture. Cancer is culture. Is there more of this 2.5 wine?

No, just whatever. Roll with it. You'll be fine. Is there more of this? Yeah. He really likes it. He really likes it. He really likes it. Anybody? Do you think there's probably a different sure, I guess. Yeah. Jared does not like this one, by the way.

I'll give you a smidge. It's just a light smidge. Just for a second. So, we're talking about cancel culture. Just take one breath real quick and then start again. For individuals versus companies is my thought there. And it's like as a company collectively making these moves

and not just one individual that gets canceled. I think there's a lot more leeway for individuals who do so, who are just humans, have a feeling, a lack of understanding, make a mistake in the moment, become emotional. Companies, especially the larger the company gets, they are planning this. Either an HR is planning, somebody has made a plan and a group agreement to start to go A room full of people decided this is okay. Yeah, right? Like, there's some C-levels that know about this, or some HR people that know about this. There's people who know and are making that conscious choice so

i i tend to be more forgiving of the individual yeah and mistakes in that way unless you're like some people who just lean hard oh i made a mistake i'm gonna keep going you know who do you know like that uh i'm not friends with them but you know they'll yeah, I mean, you mentioned the WP Engine WordPress drama. That is a lean hard and keep going. I am right fighting my position, and I will not listen to the masses. And if you are canceling me, I have a large bank account. I don't give a ****. Maybe. I don't know.

I haven't talked to him. I have no idea. He does seem to think that he is right. He does. And he's driving that company forward, so that is a singular, individual set of opinions. But if, like, LinkedIn was putting up 50

job postings for a job they didn't have, and I learned the truth of that, I might be like, f*** them, you know? Contextually, there's a version of... There's a version of standing up, and there's a version of canceling. And I think in the case of a Matt situation,

I'm not subscribing to the idea, while I disagree with several of his moves, I'm not trying to cancel Matt. No. If LinkedIn knowingly allowed, in some way, shape, or form, their platform to promote or allow for legitimately fake, is that even a thing? Legitimately fake jobs. Real fake jobs. Real fake jobs.

Dot com. Then that's not cool at all. And I say call foul. Yes, agreed. But if you're a small company and you're like, maybe you're between rounds. And you're getting ready and you want a pipeline for like triggers. Yeah. It sounds like it's mostly startups that are doing this. Yeah. Cause there are situations for founders and leaders that they get into some

situations where they've got risk on the line. And I don't think it's necessarily okay to be like, well, let me just promote this fake job and like tantalize Jared for a while and let him dangle. But I can kind of, to some degree, empathize because, wow, leading is so hard. Running a company is so hard. Does it mean you should be disingenuous? No. But am I going to be personally, as Adam from ChangeLog, going to call them out? If it was on a podcast, yeah.

If it was only on a podcast, would I do that? In the places where I'm known to share my opinions, I would share those opinions. Am I going to go out of my way to write a blog post about X, Y, and Z doing X? No. Because that's not my medium. But if they were on a podcast with us, I'm like, it sounds like that job's fake. And I've got friends who applied. Then I'd be like, that doesn't sound legitimate. Is that real?

I would totally ask them that. Am I going to be cancel culturing them and mobbing them? Nah. It's just not my style. So cancel culture, though, starts to become a larger and larger blanket of where it's coming from. Yeah, it the cancel culture is about changing perceptions within the culture of folks that feel like they've been marginalized

or worse. A certain group of people feel like they're... A certain group of people feel like they shouldn't be involved anymore. Right. And so therefore, everyone should feel like they shouldn't be involved anymore. Yeah, and it's like, no opinion is supporting the thing I'm...

Yeah. And all of that is a little egregious in my opinion. And you're canceled if you don't agree with the canceling. But we talk about a startup and you feel, you know, it's nice if you have a little sympathy for a startup CEO that, you know, has taken maybe a few million dollars or so. But, and they've made these decisions to try and give them some last gasp efforts and perception of success or just even plateauing and maintaining status quo. I would say being a leader is hard. Being a leader with integrity is even harder then because that, to me, shows a lack of integrity.

And I wouldn't even want to be there. As I was saying, that's why I was backpedaling. I don't want to be a lack of integrity kind of person, but I can at least empathize with somebody who is struggling to hold the line because there is a phrase called by any means necessary. That's true. And to some degree, by any means necessary is sometimes a bending or a curving of the integrity. Not something I personally subscribe to, but I can at least empathize with somebody who feels compelled to do so to survive. You know, and the interesting aspect of that is you would see, like, that particular founder,

if this story comes up five, ten years later and they were unicorns and blew up, and you would say, like you said, by all means necessary, and boy, was he really willing to just buckle down and do anything to make it work. And they did, you know. And that story is very different than the one of, well, they ended up drowning anyway and f***ed over a bunch of people. You know, this makes me think of a very good TV show. Go ahead.

What is it? Silicon Valley. I thought you might say that, but I was like, it sounds like the obvious answer. Silicon Valley. I thought you might say that, but I was like, it sounds like the obvious answer. Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks' character arc struggled the entire show with integrity. Yeah. There's been, there were times where he

buckled his integrity. What's happening? Hey, it's Max. Podcast and Max. Max, you want a t-shirt? Have you ever heard of the show? No, I'm just kidding. Did you guys have Max on yesterday? No, we didn't. He ghosted us.

Pause. Yes, yes. Good to see you. We are live right now. Do you want to say hi to the folks at home? Put your face in the camera real quick. This is Max. This is Max. This is Max. Max Howell, creator of

Homebrew, and now T.XYZ. That's right. Also, body double for Russell Crowe. A lot of people didn't know that. Yeah. There's some sort of familial connection. Are you not entertained?

Yeah, if you want to hang out or come by in a little bit. No worries. Okay, so. What were we saying? Back to Silicon Valley. We're canceling Silicon Valley. We canceled Silicon Valley. Come on. It's got to come back.

Technically, it was canceled. No, I guess it didn't. This is what Ab's referring to when he talks about cancel culture. It's his show. They canceled it. No, they ended it. It wasn't canceled. It ended. It was a nice natural finish. Sorry, that was a dream of mine.

It's not true. Just a dream. So Richard Hendricks struggled the entire time. It's not true. It's not true. Just a dream. So Richard Hendricks struggled the entire time. It's the entire story arc of the whole show if you haven't watched it before. And there were a couple times

he even referenced Abe Lincoln in Habeas Corpus, a very particular episode where they were planting pie holes or something like that in the HooliCon conference so that they can gain users.

And that was a by any means necessary thing. Yeah. And it's wild. You watch that show. So, I mean, that stuff happens. I'm not sure if it happens that dramatically in the world. Right. That was so cool.

Yeah. They end up getting a lot of users. Phones caught on fire and blew up. They ended up getting all these users. And then ultimately other things happened, which led to the story arc of Pied Piper. But you see that. You see these folks struggle with integrity. And I think that show is a great example of playing out someone who really desires to be towing that line of

integrity and you see him struggle you see it in the character and you ultimately see it in the story arc of the entire show in the product Pied Piper and the team that's an example of the struggle I think it's satire obviously but it's very real yeah as well I think it's such a stretch from reality yeah I think it applies the most on like the extreme ends of the spectrum like they're a startup they had to do some things to not be not in existence anymore then the other side of things you're like huge fang company sorry Menomina companies that's the new thing, Menomina

just put it you can't move on until, we can put a pin in his chair, if you don't, okay what's his Menomina thing? Meta, Apple, Netflix, Amazon what's that, Elijah? Nvidia I don't know, I'm probably not getting them right we're working on our last, Microsoft

Microsoft's the first one because we think Microsoft should have always been included in everything. But anyway. They probably wanted in there and they weren't. They're like, what's wrong with these guys? All right, keep going. What was I saying? Oh, yeah.

So those big companies, they're like, you're in a board meeting. They're like, okay, if we do this to f*** over everyone, we make $500 million. That's a hard, like, yeah, no, we can't. We've got to be nice. I've never been in that level of a conversation right so i can't like speak to that but i think there's probably a lot of that well they also never say it that way nobody ever says that if we make this strategic pivot it may harm the current environment for certain users but we will gain these others users and give them this tangential benefit

and profit. You need another yacht? I need another yacht. I could use my first yacht. I think this is a good start, yeah. I lost my yacht. Yeah. I went on shore. We ported. Yeah.

And I was like, where's my yacht? Yeah, you had too much Chianti. I was like, forget it. That one Yeah, you had too much Chianti. I was like, forget it. Just forget it. I don't know. That one ran out of gas. Just forget it. Yeah.

Every time you buy a new one, the tank's full. The captain and all. Bye. Got a whole new captain. So integrity and certifications and, you know, this is a whole thing about it's funny individuals we were speaking first about individuals building reputation versus a company reputation and we don't actually have the same like moral agreements from the humans to the group of humans who are a company though i will say that because the morality kind of strips away the larger the more growth and success you get because

you're perceived differently you did what you had to do to get there. Now if you fall down and go burning, they're like, oh yeah, f*** that guy, he was a jerk. But if it goes the other direction, it often feels perceived the other way. Yeah. So the ends do justify the means. Yeah, I mean, to a degree. Everything depends.

You've seen that show Succession, right? That's not based on any kind of morality, even within their habits. I haven't seen it. Can you tell us what it's about? That is such a phenomenal, yet very, very disgusting show. Absolutely. Was it canceled? No.

It ended very well. It was, actually. It went on probably a season too long. Maybe they wrapped it up, but it was canceled. Was it? Yeah. It wasn't canceled. It wasn't canceled.

It was. No, it wasn't. No, it ended. I'd call that. It ended. Well, yes, they wrapped it up, but I read that it was canceled. Was it? Yeah. It wasn't canceled. It wasn't canceled. It was. No, it wasn't. No, it ended. I'd call that. It ended. Well, yes, they wrapped it up, but I read that it was canceled. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm canceled.

I think you're canceled. No way, man. For saying that, HBO will never sponsor us. Brian Cox is probably one of his best roles ever. Yeah, it's amazing. Stellar acting all around, gripping, and obscene richness. Yeah. I mean, it's an incredible showcase and statement about what actually f*** you rich is.

And that family was f*** you rich. They were so f*** you rich, they were f*** you rich against themselves. Yeah. For real. That's how rich. There was no line that would not be crossed. Yeah. Agreed.

It's a great show. So whether Robbie thinks it was canceled or not, great show. Did they murder their father to take the throne? No. They tried. They certainly were against it. They tried versions of murder. Yeah.

Business murder, yes. Yeah. Because that goes back to Gladiator. You know, he just hugs his dad, Caesar. He just hugs him to death. You know that? Walking Phoenix or Gladiator? I remember.

He realizes. I just watched this recently. That's why I had it down pat. Marcus Aurelius is old. He's dying. He's going to name Russell Crowe as the next Caesar. Maximus, whatever. Maximus Aurelius.

Yeah, whatever his name is. Maximus. And Joaquin Phoenix, who is the heir to the throne, goes into his dad's tent and his dad tells him, you will not be Caesar. And he's like, all I ever wanted to do was have you be proud of me, dad. Like that kind of thing. Yeah, I remember.

And he's like, my son. And then they get close you be proud of me, Dad. Like that kind of thing. And he's like, my son. And then they get close and he hugs him. And he straight strangles him to death and takes the throne. That's succession right there. That's some succession. Speaking of things that strangle you to death, how do you feel about TypeScript? Well, I stay as far away as I can. Just like Marcus Aurelius should have stayed away from his son.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Always have a buddy. That's good. That's a good pivot into the way. You brought the web back into the two. There's whatnot on this episode.

Yeah, we've got a lot of whatnot. A lot of whatnot. okay friends i'm here with a new friend of ours over at timescale avthar so within so avthar help me understand what exactly is Timescale? So Timescale is a Postgres company. We build tools in the cloud and in the open source ecosystem that allow developers to do more with Postgres. So using it for things like time series analytics, and more recently, AI applications like RAG and search and agents. Okay, if our listeners were trying to get started with Postgres, timescale, AI application development, what would you tell them? What's a good roadmap? If you're a developer out there, you're either getting tasked with building an AI application,

or you're interested and you're seeing all the innovation going on in the space and want to get involved yourself. And the good news is that any developer today can become an AI engineer using tools that they already know and love. And so the work that we've been doing at Timescale with the PGAI project is allowing developers to build AI applications with the tools and with the database that they already know, and that being Postgres. What this means is that you can actually level up your career, you can build new interesting projects, you can add more skills without learning a whole new set of technologies. And the best part is it's all open source, both PGAI and PG Vector Scale are open source, you can go and spin it up on your local machine via Docker, follow one of the tutorials on the Timescale blog, build these

cutting edge applications like RAG and such without having to learn 10 different new technologies and just using Postgres in the SQL query language that you will probably already know and are familiar with. So yeah, that's it. Get started today. It's a PGAI project and just go to any of the timescale GitHub repos, either the PGAI one or the PG vector scale one and follow one of the tutorials to get started with becoming an AI engineer just using Postgres. Okay, just use Postgres and just use Postgres to get started with AI development, build RAG, search, AI agents, and it's all open source. Go to timescale.com slash AI, play with PGAI, play with PG vector scale, All locally on your desktop.

It's open source. Once again, timescale.com slash AI. Who is upset about the state of front end? I mean, like, basically just utterly disgusted with it. Right. How basically... Thoroughly. To prove some point, all business logic and API,

all of that stuff has come somehow into the front end. SQL in the front end is great. I can't remember if it's Ken C. Dodds who was saying this, but I don't know, Somebody was saying, like, we have a ton of folks who know React really well, subject matter experts, so rather than re-skill them across

the stack, how about we just figure out a way to learn once right everywhere? Yeah, no. And I think that speaks to this state of front-end engineering. It's going to be a hard pass for me. Yeah. No, I mean, I like Kent, but I don't like that idea at all. Yeah, I think there's something to be said for,

I want to learn how to do things, you know, maybe not apply to front-end, back-end, database, everything, but like for building a front-end, I should be able to write it the same way forever, and you just compile it to do whatever new shit you want behind the scenes. I got a heart i got a real problem with that particular attitude which is a stand in our industry which is like i'm only going to learn one thing okay right and you guys just work around my lack of knowledge

for the rest of my career you know like how about no that's my stance. How about no? No. We're not going to do that. No, it's an option. It's not on the list. You may check yes or no. Or maybe it depends. Yeah. This one doesn't even depend. I just think that's a terrible idea.

It is a terrible idea. It's so myopic. What about Rails? What do you guys think? Rails? Yeah, what about Rails resurgence? Yeah, no, I think that's a good line. That's a good line. Hold on.urgence? I think they'll talk about that.

We can't talk about two things. We're trumping your topic. Go ahead. I was about to get a

response. Get a response. I was going to say, I think there's a line. I think some

of it should work, but I think SQL in the front end, not a good thing. That's the line? Yeah. Well, just skip the ORM. I think we don't need half the **** we have to begin with, because Astro is the best way to write apps. Use HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.

You don't need React and all the **** everywhere. Just write with web standards, use good accessibility, do all the stuff, and then if you need some kind of more intense back-end or database, use the technologies that already exist for that. Rails is great. Use MySQL or Postgres or whatever directly. You don't need ORMs. Is that what you're saying?

It depends. It depends. I like the sugar of ORMs. I mean, Django and Rails had ORMs. I like a good ORM. Yeah, they're true web frameworks because they give you fucking login. If you don't give me login, don't tell me Next.js is a full web framework. It's not.

I've got to have 45 other SaaS things that Triangle Company has invested in in order to make a full web framework in that context. Talk about the dependencies of SaaS on a startup. You've got authentication, login, various things like that that you have to subscribe to to deliver your application. It's like, nah, man. Yeah, we've replaced opinionated frameworks that had all that with a bunch of other services that you still don't write yourself.

Which I think is why Rails is having a moment again. Because we're like, hey guys, remember this? This was better before we went over here. It's better. It's back. It's better again. Sorry. I don better again. Sorry. I don't know. I personally never left the old way because I'm a stodgy curmudgeon.

Yeah. And so I've just been waiting. I've just been doing it. And here it is. You're about to have your moment. You described my stack right over there. You're like HTML, CSS. I'm like, yeah.

Well, the sad part is, though. First class citizens. Is we are almost 10 years deep into a platform that was not written in Rails. Which I have remorse over, but Jared does not. Into a platform that has all the same ideals that Rails has, so it's fine. I get it. We use Elixir and Phoenix. Okay.

That is also continuing to evolve and be great. Totally. That is kind of timeless software. I agree. Well, I picked it eight years ago, and I'm still happy with it. You can't say that about too many great. Totally. And that is like kind of timeless software. I agree. Well, I picked it eight years ago and I'm still happy with it, which you can't say that

about too many things. Right. Right? That's true. For sure. That being said, Rails is cool. And if I was starting

from fresh, because I used to do Rails before that, and I would definitely pick it back up again. Yeah. Because Ruby is a great language. And DHH is nice now. and it's making friends online.

He convinced me to buy a Framework laptop. Oh, how is that? It's pretty dope. I just haven't been able to spend enough time to make it my regular driver. Right. But that and the Omacube is really cool. Yeah, that does sound cool. Yeah.

So I like being able to upgrade it if I want. Even when my AppleCare wears out, I can get it fixed. How much did that cost? I ended up buying one on sale, so it was under a grand. Actually, you can get a nicely put together one for about a grand.

$800 to $1,000, I'd say. I'm about to get a new laptop, and I am so deeply in the Apple ecosystem that I'm afraid to peek out and see, because the cocoon is so warm and snuggly. It is. You're not wrong.

You're absolutely not wrong. But I am curious. You're a little curious. I am. I think the workaround is you have like a rack mount Mac that you can have like iMessage your Linux so you can still message people and shit. Yeah, maybe. That doesn't sound like a workaround. But, I mean, it's a funny thing because you can buy a MacBook Air and a frame Linux laptop

and still spend less than you would on a MacBook Pro, like a real high-level one. So it's crazy that that's the case, but it absolutely is. So there's that. I don't know. DHH was able to make it run his Apple XDR display even too. No, he said it never worked. It worked. No, he told it never worked. It worked. No, he told me it worked.

I just didn't get the one level up that he did that made that work. But it would be a $200 upgrade for me to do that if I was like, I'm in. And then make that work too. So hard to say. But I say it's worth trying, especially at the price points. Anyway. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Framework Laptops. I'm just trying to find people I can build.

Yeah. This episode is sponsored by Casey Masterpiece Barbecue Sauce. Oh. I don't know. Is it legal to say you're sponsored when you're not sponsored? We do it anyway. Is there rules to this? Holy shit.

Hold on. We've been doing this for like... I think there's an FCC regulation against that. Do you have to... Does the FCC cover things on the Apple podcast? They won't let me be. Things like that? Or let me be me, so let me see.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I was like, do I say it or do I not say it? You should. I'm like, they won't get it. But I underestimated you, Robbie. I underestimated you a lot. For Eminem. Yes. He's underestimated you, Robbie. I underestimated you a lot. For Eminem. Yes.

He's the GOAT. Yes. Apparently. He's 51 now. So that makes me feel old. Yeah. Yeah, preaching to the choir here. How do you guys normally end these shows?

We're done. Bye. Yeah, no. Get out. We do try to ask at the end, what would you guys do if you weren't in tech? Oh, snap. I know the get out. We do try to ask at the end. Is there anything you want to do? If you weren't in tech, like you don't have to possess this skill.

If you just think this is cool and I wish I could do it, you can choose that too. Yeah. I would probably be the emperor of the Roman empire. Oh, so how often do you think about the Roman empire? Just watch gladiator the other night. Yeah, you're like,

that seems like a good job. This is pretty sweet. I like how you can just do this or this. Yeah. And everyone just does what you say. Yeah. My son does. Yeah.

Daddy's cooking. What would I do if I wasn't in tech? So many things. Am I retired? You can be. So many things. Am I retired? You can be. Whatever you want. This is a scenario. I mean, Jared was able to time travel back to the Roman Empire.

Well, the Roman Empire is coming back. Technically, I brought it to us. Yeah. Technically, I brought it to the future. But that's a nitpick. Yeah. That's fair. If I'm retired, I would probably begin to garden.

I'd probably pickle my own pickles. I'd probably make guacamole every single day. I'd probably have my own avocado tree. I would probably have my own jalapeno tree and a serrano tree or plant. Yeah. That's how unschooled i am on this gardening well you haven't started i would uh first first principles not because i'm a weirdo but because i really want to eat good food and there's something magical that happens when you eat really good food and

i'm not talking like pizza good food yeah but like but like fresh vegetables, fresh spices, make your own yogurt kind of situation, make your own sauces. There's something that changes with your food whenever you've done that, and you kind of don't want to eat out anymore. Yeah. Unless it's like your favorite restaurant, and you're like, nah, not today. You know? That's kind of where we're at. I make a phenomenal burger. All right.

You're better than Jason and Sierra's burgers. The only thing that stopped me from going layers and layers deeper is that I don't have time to grind my own meat. Oh, right. I don't got that. But if you had time. If I was not in tech and I was retired, I would be grinding my own meat. I would be sirloin with ribeye and all this stuff. Make my own ground meat. I'd make my own bun.

Yes. Seriously. Yes. That guy in LA on the burger show who has the butcher shop, he's like a chef and he has his own butcher shop. And then he like a bakery out in town to do his potato rolls for his burgers they're amazing i'd fly my own plane to columbia to get my beans myself from raul who's a longtime friend and i'm now a supporter of his his farm we have a co-op we would shake hands maybe kiss a cheek, and I'd come back with some fresh beans and I'd grind them that day.

Yeah. And I'd make some good coffee. Nice. That's what I would do if I wasn't in tech. You could be my chef in the Roman Empire. You could be my chef. I would direct the directors. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, and then, yeah, if you guys have anything you want to plug or mention that we didn't get to.

I'll say we have a show coming out with DHH this week. So it's Tuesday. It should come out tomorrow. It's probably going to come out Thursday. When's this going to come out? Not for a while. Okay. Two to four weeks.

You've heard it already. Yeah. It's out there. It's in the past. Look at our feed. You probably already listened to it. ChangeLog.fm. And look for something that says it's a real world. Nice. It's in the past. Look at our feed. You probably already listened to it. Changelog.fm. And look for something that says, it's a Rails world.

Nice. It might not be called that. It'll probably say Rails or DHS. We're still working on it. Yeah. I think I'm still down with that title. I don't care. All right.

Awesome. All right. Cool. Thanks, guys. Thanks. Thank you. Cheers, y'all. Ciao.

Cheers. Ciao. Cheers. Ciao. All right. That is our first show from the All Things Open hallway track, but it won't be our last. We had great conversations with Max Howell, Chad Whitaker from Sentry, Alex Kreshmar from Tailscale,

and many more. Those are coming soon. Thanks again to Chuck and Robbie for hosting us on their podcast and for sharing a bottle of Chianti with us. Wine always tastes better when it's paired with good conversation. So I'm going to go ahead and revise my four tentacle rating. Let's go 4.5. Boom. Thanks again to our amazing sponsors,

Fly.io, WorkOS, Wix Studio, and Timescale. Please support them. They support us. And of course, thank you to our beat freak, Breakmaster Cylinder. We couldn't bump the best beats in the biz without you, BMC. I just like anything that makes me happy,

and I do that, and then I do the next thing. You're welcome. Next week on The Change Log. News on Monday. More awesome ATO interviews on Wednesday. And on Friday, we're working on an awesome local first It Depends episode. But I'm not sure if they'll come together by then. So stay tuned.

Stay tuned. Have a great weekend. Tell your friends about The Change Log over a glass of wine. And let's talk again real soon.