The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source - ZURB Foundation 5 and Front-End Frameworks (Interview)

Episode Date: November 16, 2013

Adam and Andrew talk with Jonathan Smiley and Mark Hayes from ZURB about Foundation 5, front-end frameworks, and Ink — their new email framework project.

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It's changelogsentme. That's changelogsentme, which will give you a $10 hosting credit or two months free. So head to DigitalOcean and become awesome today. DigitalOcean.com. And we got some awesome people in the house today, Andrew. We got Jonathan Smiley and Mark Hayes from Zurb. We're here talking about Foundation, Foundation 5, and I guess you guys, Jonathan, you guys got some crazy stuff going on there.

So, Andrew, kick off the show for us, man. Yeah, so like you said, we're here with Jonathan and Mark from Zurb, and we're here to talk about Foundation 5 and also talk about a new project that they got. I don't know when they released it, so we'll let them kind of kick it off and introduce. So, Jonathan, why don't you kind of give us an introduction to who you and Mark are, and Mark can kind of weigh in too, and tell us a little bit about Zurb for those who don't know,

and what we're going to talk about. Yeah, I can do that. So hi, everybody. My name is Jonathan Smiley. I'm one of the partners here at Zurb. I'm here with Mark Hayes. He's one of our senior engineers. Zurb is a product design company in Campbell, California. We're down at the south end of Silicon Valley. If you ask all the agencies up in the city, that's the uncool end of the valley. But whatever. Screw those guys. That's not true.

But we've been around for – Zurb's actually been around for a little over 15 years now. I've been with Zurb for five and and Mark, you've been here for? Two and a half. Two and a half? Before we released the first version of Foundation. Feels like a lot longer than two and a half years that you've been here, but time flies when you're crazy busy. But we've got a number of projects that we have going on at any given time.

The ones that we're going to talk to you guys about and that we're like neck deep in right now are Foundation, which is an open source framework that we developed a couple of years ago now for building responsive websites. It was, I think, actually the first like basically feature complete responsive framework. So we've been working on that for a couple of years, and we have an all-new version of that coming out on Thursday next week. So a week from today, actually. Well, a week from today as we're sitting here recording it. That's true. It's coming out on the 21st.

And then we also just recently released, it was only, was it Inc. last week? Yeah. God, it feels like longer ago. We covered that too. It actually wasn't we. It was one of us, Jared Santo, our managing editor. He was like, Adam, have you seen this yet? And I think – Andrew, I think Kelly is using Inc.

He was an early adopter, showed me this like I think a month back. But I think you guys just released – didn't you have like some earlier version of ink though? That was like responsive. We had a, uh, so, so ink is, uh, ink is like foundation, but for emails, um, we had about a year ago, almost a year ago, uh, we developed some basically responsive email templates, just some, some basic responsive template files, uh, that we offered up through our playground. We have a playground where we basically just dump weird, interesting code experiments. But we posted the responsive templates to that, and they've been really, really popular,

actually, over the course of the last about a year, I think. And that actually sort of compelled us to create an entire framework out of that. The templates suffered from a couple big problems. One was that since they weren't really framework-ized, I guess, they're a little harder to build your own stuff from scratch. They were pretty easy to adapt to whatever purposes you needed, but it was harder to kind of build your own thing. They also had a really big flaw, which is that they didn't work in Outlook,

which it turns out is kind of tremendously important for rich emails. Outlook is still obnoxiously popular. Not for us. That's good, because it's a complete idiot about how it does rich emails. Outlook is the worst. I'm thankful for that, though, because only half of the people in the Genius Law Weekly's list, half of the subscribers we have are all on iOS. Nice. Either an iPhone, an iPad, or actually a Mac device. So half of our market is Mac.

That's a- Phenomenal. That's a big win because it's kind of a nightmare to have to support Outlook, especially if you're doing responsive emails, because Outlook just doesn't support anything. So we had to do a lot of work to get the framework to actually work in Outlook, but we did get it to work. It actually does work in pretty much every popular email client. I think one of the only ones that we really explicitly don't support is Lotus,

so those guys are kind of screwed. But everybody else should be good to go. On our show last week, he was on talking about, he was kind of pumping Lotus up a little bit. He was like, you know, the email Lotus notes, it kind of sucks. But Lotus notes was really capable of doing some cool things. So we got the yin and the yang. This week we're just bashing Lotus apparently. It's an easy target to pick on, and I've had to use it before, too.

I will, to be totally honest, I'll give Lotus this. I'm actually not sure if its email handling is worse than Outlook's. It might be a little better than Outlook's, but it has a pretty small group of users, so it does not get a lot of attention. Yeah, and in some ways, though, I mean, we've talked about this a few times, too. They're kind of pioneers, right? I mean, they kind of started to tackle some of this stuff before anyone else was really tackling it. So you guys could probably understand, as doing foundation, that you run into issues that when you're kind of blazing trails, you actually have to figure out how to solve the issues. And then the people that come behind you, they're like, the problems are already solved.

They just put their own spin on those things. Oh, yeah. We've seen that numerous times. There have been a lot of frameworks that have popped up in the wake of Foundation that in some cases actually started as just straight up Foundation forks and then gradually became their own thing, which is cool. And I mean, they do some interesting stuff of their own and we can learn from some of the things that they do. And it must be nice that a lot of the problems are already solved. Right. Yeah. And that's what we talked

about. Like, and maybe you guys can get into this a little bit, but, but, um, I can't remember off the top of my head right now what we were talking about, but when the competitor comes up, oh yeah, we were talking about Capistrano and Vlad, the deployer came up and they were like, their tagline was sucks less than Capistrano. And, and it, you know, that's really taking a shot at somebody who really solved all of your problems that now you're just like, you already know the solutions and you're just making it more efficient. And to take a shot like that is to diminish the work that they did to make your life easier at this point. And so when those guys come up as foundation, you know, like you said, some are just literally forks of foundation. And when they come up and they start advertising as better than foundation, then, well, that's kind of flattering that they're obviously even, you know, that you guys are the bane of the whole message of their marketing. But at the same time, it's almost like a bite in the hand that feeds you. You know, like you wouldn't be able to do this if we didn't solve the problems for you in the first place.

Yeah, there's definitely a degree of that. And there's been a couple of times when we've crossed paths with some of the other frameworks and they've kind of, I don't want to say they got on our nerves, but they kind of got on our nerves. And it's like, yeah, that's nice. And we're glad you're doing your own thing. But we're, I don't know.

Show some respect, young ones. Kind of. That or we just sort of like play nice and then get off the email or get off the phone and just kind of be like, yeah, we're going to destroy that. Well, since we – Andrew, you said young ones. So let's – can we give a perspective on the age of Foundation and kind of when it – I know we just were talking about ink ink and email Lotus there, but you know, you just kind of talked about framework. So how old is foundation? So foundation is just over two years old or just about two years old. I'm pretty sure. I think it came out September, 2011. Yeah. I think it was September of 2011. So it's just over two years old now. That's version two version two that was two years old, right?

That was version two. So that was the first public version. Yeah. Version one actually never saw the light of day. We only used it internally here at Zurb. And Foundation one actually was not responsive. Nice. The interesting thing about Foundation one and actually Foundation's predecessor, which

was something called the Zurb Coded Style Guide, is that the Zurb Coded Style Guide was actually the genesis of Foundation. It was also in a lot of ways, and I think Mark would probably, other Mark, not this Mark, different Mark, would back me up on this. It was also the genesis of Bootstrap, because Bootstrap was actually developed by Mark Otto, who was a designer here at Zurb when I started, and he and I worked on the coded style guide together. He went to Twitter and created Twitter Blueprint. That's a good history I didn't know about.

Oh, yeah. There's a whole inside baseball thing for this. Yeah, if you go back and look at the first public release of Bootstrap and the first public release of Foundation, you'll find that they are extraordinarily similar because they came from a very similar, they came from the same starting point. In fact, same story with Skeleton, which comes up still a little bit now and then, which is like an adaptive framework. Yeah. Skeleton was actually written by a guy named Dave Gamache, who worked with me on Foundation

One before he left CERB and made Skeleton. Jeez. So it was a whole – all three of those frameworks, Foundation and Skeleton and Bootstrap, in some way or form, had their start here at Zurb. So we're pretty proud of all that. That's awesome. Yeah, I didn't even know that. I mean, that's – I can imagine anybody listening is like, whoa, I found this out

on the change. That's awesome. Do you guys say that often? Is this like new news? We don't say it a lot. We say it a little bit. It's kind of funny because the guy behind Bootstrap, Mark Otto, well, there's another guy too, Jacob, who works on a lot of JavaScript stuff.

But Mark, Foundation and Bootstrap get compared a lot. There's a lot of articles out there there and big, you know, spreadsheet driven checklists or whatever, like what does bootstrap do and what does foundation do and which one would I use or which one is better. And most of them end with something along the lines of, you know, foundation's better for this particular thing and bootstrap's better for this particular thing. And everybody thinks we're very confrontational or very, I don't know, I don't know what the word is, angry and violent about the whole thing. The funny thing actually is that, uh, Mark Otto and I are actually pretty good friends. We like play Starcraft and stuff now and then he's terrible. Um, but, uh, we've, I mean, we've, we've kept in touch this whole, the whole time for some

of this stuff we've been to each other's like launch parties and that kind of stuff. So it's at the end of the day, I mean, there the day, there's definitely a competitive angle to some of it, and I'm certainly not going to say that we don't want to beat Bootstrap, because we do. But it's at least a reasonably friendly competition. Everybody wants to make better tools and make it easier to make better stuff, so let's all just do our thing, and it'll shake out in the end. Right. I mean, it keeps you guys moving too, right? If it was only you guys, then we might not have seen five major releases in the last two years.

That's true. It has definitely kept us moving, and we stay pretty aggressive with Foundation. In fact, we already have tentative dates floating around for the next version of Foundation, so we don't ever want to stop. Well, let's talk a little bit about Foundation 5. So when Foundation 4 came out, I mean, I personally remember I was like, okay, a lot of stuff at that point kind of got rolled into Foundation itself. I think – was that 4 or 3 where all the JavaScript stuff got rolled into it? I guess that was 4. And I remember thinking like, okay, that was a pretty big milestone. And then Foundation 5 comes around, and I'm thinking to myself, I wonder what you guys are going to really be focusing on here. And reading the blog post that we'll link to in the show notes, it seems like one of the big focuses that you guys are putting into Foundation 5 is speed.

Am I off base there, or is that right? No, I think that's pretty much the thesis. Or the need for speed. Which one is it? Speed, baby, speed. Tell us a little bit about that. What is the impetus behind that? And what does that mean for the user of Foundation 5? Sure.

So with each release of Foundation, we've tried to have sort of an overarching, what's the goal of this release? We don't want to just bump the number because we like to bump the number. I mean, we do like to bump the number. But we want there to be some sort of reason. Like you were talking about, like it was, 4 was,

there were a few big pushes with 4. One was that we did better integrate all the JavaScript stuff. We did a lot of work to actually have the JavaScript components be really integral to the framework. We also, 4 was... We had that whole move towards mobile first in Foundation 4, so that was huge. That was a big change. Foundation 4 was, we switched everything to be totally, everything to be mobile first,

and some of that was driven actually because Luke Wroblewski, who literally wrote the book Mobile First, and has been on the Mobile Force warpath forever, is an advisor for Zurb. And over the course of a bunch of lunches and stuff, he sort of bludgeoned me into making Foundation Mobile First, which I think was actually, it was a good move. It was a smart move, but he had to really work at it for a little while. So with Foundation 5, the thing that we're seeing now is is so frameworks have been around for a little while now and there's quite a few of them at this point i mean everybody's seems like everybody's trying to get in the game now like yahoo's got their own thing coming out that's even separate from ue they've got pure pure as them right yeah as yahoo um so they've got pure i think google's

even maybe trying to get in the game they've been been floating some sort of weird stuff around like they're going to get into this the framework. So everybody's kind of doing their thing and it's becoming a more mature field, I guess you could say. And so now what we're running up against is that we know at least a little bit of how to do responsive design. And we know a little bit about how these frameworks ought to work and how they ought to help you build stuff. What we haven't seen enough of really is optimization or, uh, speed sort of across the idea of a framework. Um, we want foundation to be fast, essentially in a lot of different ways, not just in terms of how quickly it can be delivered,

although we're doing work there too, or how quickly, you know, pages can load or what we can do to optimize. Although we've done some, I think pretty interesting stuff in that, in that vein. And I'll, I can talk about that. Um, but we want foundation five to be faster for people to learn. We want foundation five to be faster for people to actually build with, actually write the code. We want that to be faster. Uh, we want it to be faster, uh, when it performs and be more performant, uh, because we, we think that since the tools exist now and the tools are reasonably well defined, what we can really do with Foundation

to help this ecosystem along is just lower the barrier to entry even more in as much as we can get more people up to speed on Foundation, we can get more people up to speed on, no pun intended, by the way, more people up to speed on how uh, no pun intended, by the way, um, more people up to speed on, uh, how they're actually going to build stuff and help them build things more quickly. Uh, just so that we can have more, frankly, just have more responsive stuff built

and have responsive stuff that's built. Well, also be built quickly. Uh, cause the pace of this stuff doesn't slow down. Like the pace of web development especially is preposterously fast. I mean, we're on foundation five now that's only in the space of two years. Responsive design at all is only about three years old, just over three years old. So this is not like a, you know, we haven't been doing this for like decades or anything like that. Like this has been a little while. In fact, I realized this when I was, uh, I was doing a little bit of research the other day. I actually didn't even quite realize, but CSS at all,

like CSS, we're all like super used to CSS. And it's like, Oh, CSS, obviously we build everything. CSS, CSS is only about 13 years old.

Yeah. Say 12. Yeah. Like it's, it's just not that old. Like I can think back to when very easily when CSS came out and it's like, it feels like we've been doing it forever, but we haven't. So everything, I can remember the days when it out. And it's like, it feels like we've been doing it forever, but we haven't.

So everything feels fast. I can remember the days when it was still being debated, like, should we use tables or should we use CSS to style things? And Eric Meyer had written some books on it and he was like, I can remember those days. It wasn't very long ago, you're right. I mean, this is still like the, it's still a baby.

It's still an adolescent, barely. Well, it speaks to the kind of the industry. You can go back and read a lot of those books This is still like the – it's still a baby. It's still an adolescent barely. Well, it speaks to the kind of the industry. You can go back and read a lot of those books, and they don't feel outdated. Now, the – obviously the concepts seem outdated because we know better. But like if you're new to the industry, and I've – you've all dealt with this, right? Like somebody, a friend of yours that wants to start learning this stuff is new to the industry, and they go pick up one of these books. And they're like, yeah, this book's from 2004, it seems good and the information all seems good and you're telling them like you're reading stuff that nobody cares about anymore.

Like in this industry, 10 years is like eons, you know? Right. And yeah, so we're kind of figuring if things are moving this quickly and I mean at this point it's like every six months or less like the entire motif of web design, the entire like approach to how some of this stuff works might change. Uh, we want people to be able to do things more quickly and build things more quickly, uh, so that they can actually get something done before everything just passes them by. Um, and that goes double for us because I would hazard a guess

that we are probably one of the most prolific shops of writing stuff in foundation obviously because it's what we write everything in but we do all of our client work in foundation. We have anywhere from 12 to 16 or so clients at a time. So we do all of our client work in foundation. We do all of our projects in foundation. All of our sites, all of our properties

are written with foundation or being written with foundation. So we want it to be fast because we have to do it all the time and we want to be more efficient. So you say that it's not just the, the speed of, you know, optimizing the code itself, but it's also the speed of learning, the speed of, you know, how long it takes to get up and up and running with it. So what does that mean for the user? Like somebody that's familiar with Foundation 4, how will Foundation 5 be different for them? Sure. So Foundation 5 actually shouldn't be that much different

from Foundation 4 from a user's perspective. All the naming of our JavaScript files and our SAS variables, there's very little that changed on that front. The only thing that has changed is the way that you can selectively import parts of Foundation. It has changed, so it's easier to pick and pull what you need from Foundation. So if you don't need everything, you don't have to use everything. So that's probably the biggest point. We also have some additional new components in Foundation 5, which we'll talk about a little bit later in this, in this program.

Right. But we've been, uh, I mean, as far as like getting people up to speed on stuff, like we're rewriting all the documentation. Uh, in fact, we're in the middle of that right now, which is going to bring us right up to the wire. Yeah. Um, you got a week. What do you do? Waste some time on this show? Yeah, I know. Right. We're, we're thinking about the docs that we still have to write while we talk to you. Um, but we're rewriting all the documentation so that that'll be, it's going to have a lot more, uh, examples, a lot more code stuff that you can pull from, uh, and just drop right into whatever you're working on. Uh, it's, it's much more, it's better organized. It's much

more verbose than what we had before, at least as far as just example code that was some feedback that we consistently got was you guys describe a lot of the things that's going on in here i want to actually just like see it and be able to grab it and drop it um so we're doing a lot of work there that's a neat concept too we when we had um remind me of his luchic i I believe, Semantic UI. Oh, yeah. That was a big component of what he talked about with Semantic UI was that he wanted it to be easy to grab one component or one. If you just wanted the grid, you can use the grid only. Or if you wanted certain components, you can easily pull that, and it didn't have the JavaScript dependencies

were separate well enough styles, and all that stuff was was very um compartmentalized really well yeah and we've done a lot of work for that for foundation five i know we've we've tried to make it as fast and easy as possible to say you want to pull in just a particular thing i think we even manage all the dependencies and stuff for you now don't we yeah is that true for the like what do you guys prefer do you guys the, I don't know how to describe it, the standalone installation of Foundation? Or like for, let's say, a Rails project, do you prefer the gem installation that you guys are using? For the Rails installation, we use the gem just because the asset pipeline takes care of bringing in all the JavaScript and the SAS files for us.

But for non-Rails projects, we've been using Bower a lot recently. It makes it really easy to grab the latest version of Foundation. This is something new we're paying more attention to with Foundation 5. But definitely the Rails gem is the way to go, especially so that we don't have our designers go in and excellent muck up the original foundation or JavaScript files, which makes upgrading, you know, a potential problem. So, well, that's what I kind of what I was going to get into a little bit is the upgrade path.

So a lot of people who use, so like specifically when we're talking about Rails projects or just general people who are using, you know, Ruby gems or bundler, you know, however they're using it, they're used to just being able to bundle update, and for the most part it just works. And do you think that that's... You said that Foundation 5 should be pretty similar to Foundation 4, so is there much changes that need to happen for the upgrade path if you're using a standard installation?

So in terms of Sass variables, no. We have introduced some new Sass variables for defining the new breakpoints that are used for the media queries. But for the JavaScript, we've actually created a shim that we'll include with up until Foundation 5.1 that we'll take care of. We had a few plugins. I'm trying to think. Joyride was one of them where we used camel case to name some variables. And it wasn't consistent where we were using underscores everywhere else.

So we've made everything consistent in that sense, but we have a shim that will go through it and adjust. If you're using the wrong variable names, it'll adjust the variables for you, and it will include that up until 5.1 just so that if you're using 5.0, things aren't going to break right away. Right. So then at 5.1, it'll break and it's up to them to go back and fix all their junk. Yes, but we have some deprecation notices.

So if you're using Foundation, you'll actually see in your Chrome console if you're using something that is deprecated. So if you don't see any warnings, 5.1 should be just as trivial an upgrade as 5.0 is. Right. And I know when we went from Foundation 3 to Foundation 4, we changed a lot of just markup syntax. Some of that was because we went mobile first. Some of that was because we just needed to rethink how we were doing some of this stuff. So there were some pretty large philosophical changes, I guess, in that one. Foundation 4 to 5 has a lot less big philosophical changes, I guess,

to it that are in that kind of vein. So I know things like the grid syntax and that kind of stuff, you can leave unchanged. In Foundation 5, you'll have some more toys to play with, but you shouldn't have to go through all your markup and make a whole lot of big, stringent changes. We're going to have a migration guide for 4 to 5, but it should be pretty straightforward. It shouldn't be like the 3 uh, the three to four.

Uh, I don't know if I can call it a debacle, but there was at least a decent amount of legwork that had to go into upgrading from three to four, four to five should be pretty straightforward. Yeah. Now you guys, I don't know if you actually follow semantic versioning, but when you, when you do major changes like that from three to four, it's perfectly acceptable to break, right? It's perfectly acceptable for it not to work the same or to have some pains with upgrading. But what's interesting to me is for something like foundation, I think a lot of people are okay with that with other tools, but for something like foundation, it's just like you constantly want the newest because it feels like the newest is leveraging like modern technologies so much better than the previous

version. So i wonder why people aren't as forgiving with foundation or something like that when it's a major version change as they would be with another project well we have a lot of our uh a lot of people using foundation are using it for client work so if somebody is working with foundation part way through and they encounter an issue and we need to push out fixes for that we want our customers or our users feeling very comfortable just upgrading anytime so that they can get the latest and greatest code so so you're right we we definitely can make breaking changes if we absolutely need to but if you don't have to or you can like find a way to it yeah we it just if i've

been in the position where like even like in rails projects, if you upgrade a gem and it's a new major version and it breaks things, it's acceptable, but it's still annoying. And I don't know. I always have the, I don't know, it just gets really annoying, especially if I don't have time to, I need to upgrade, but it just... Yeah, yeah. It's a double-edged sword, right? When it fixes a problem that you had to work around before,

but it breaks something that you're depending on now. So it's kind of like you don't know whether I should upgrade and spend the time or just still deal with the problem that I'm having now. Yeah. Exactly. I feel like I almost don't trust the authors as much if I keep making breaking changes. I'm more inclined to just want to leave not use a particular gym anymore if it changes every time I bump major versions

I was going to say especially we talked a little bit earlier like the competition level that you're facing in the framework world that's the world you're playing in so the harder you make the upgrade path or the more bumpy it might be you're going to have some changes obviously

like Andrew said that are acceptable. But if you can minimize that, you probably stand a chance of like shiny objects not getting their attention, right? Right, right. And it's – yeah, it's totally a two-edged sword because we can't sit on our laurels and just like do teeny tiny little changes that don't really impact anything because we need to keep making big sweeping changes in order to stay ahead of any kind of competition. But anytime we do that, yeah, we risk. It's a funnel, right? Everybody who uses a current version of Foundation

when the new one comes out, everybody wants to use it. In some cases, it's really sort of aggravating. We get so many requests for people who want to use Foundation 4 with really old versions of IE, like IE 7 or IE 8, which we don't actually technically support. But the funny thing is we actually kept Foundation 3 around specifically because Foundation 3 actually worked in IE 8. So if people needed IE 8 support we were like look we still have like this supported like it was good code like it works well like you can use foundation 3 and what we always get is but I don't want to use foundation 3 I want to use foundation 4 I want the shiny new exactly I want the shiny new thing I just want that to work in

IE 8 and it's like it it doesn't like it doesn't work there like I don't know what to tell you it's like you can use 3 or you can try to make 4 work and it's going to be a world of pain, but they all want the shiny new thing. They all want that to work as far back as they can. I know we're going to get it with Foundation 5. Can I have Foundation 5

that works in IE 7? Can I have Foundation 5 that works in IE 8? We'll continue to toe the line of, well, no. Yeah, I mean you're pushing the web forward here, right? I mean that's the point is as long as tools continue to coddle the old web, then it doesn't go forward. I never understand that debate there. It always boggles my mind. It's a difficult – it's not an easy decision for us.

So this is actually – this is a thing that's actually come up a lot just with building a framework at all like this is that if you're trying to stay ahead of stuff, you have to make a lot of decisions where there's not a lot of have to just forge our own path, I guess, and then deal with whatever the consequences of that are, which can be really, really awesome. And it feels like you're, you know, like striding atop the world, just, you know, dominating stuff. And it feels great sometimes. And then sometimes it's really frustrating, like dropping support for IE8 was a difficult decision because we do have a lot, a lot of people who really want or really need support for that kind of browser because they still cater to, you know, large enterprise. They want to use it for whatever other kind of stuff they've got going on that necessitates having that kind of support. But we can't, you know, we can't actually make the framework do what we're, what we needed to do in order for, in order to support those actual browsers. Like we couldn't do mobile first really and support IE8.

That was actually the killer with IE8 is that IE8 doesn't support media queries. And for mobile first to work, you have to have media queries that kick in on larger and larger screens and it's just not going to happen in IE8. So we couldn't, we just couldn't make it work. Like when we went from foundation two to foundation three, we dropped support in IE8. So we couldn't, we just couldn't make it work. Like when we went from foundation, uh, two to foundation three, we dropped support for IE7 because IE7 doesn't support the, uh, the border box, uh, box sizing model. And we use that for literally everything. So we had to drop support for that. We, and we got complaints about that and we'll get complaints

about eight and we'll keep getting it. Um, but it's, I mean, I, I feel bad when someone's like, I really want to use foundation, but I have to support IE eight. And it's like, well, I, I wish I could help you, but I just can't. Right. It's like, I wish there was something we could do, but there's just not. So sorry. Uh, I feel there. I feel their pain because we've had to do that too but that's just the way it goes we're going to pause for just a second we'll come back we're going to talk

I think we're going to talk a little bit about responsive because you kind of touched a bit on that and I think I want to talk a bit about what you're doing around that with foundation but let's pause for a minute and give a shout out to our sponsor number two Top Towel they're an awesome sponsor of ours and for those of you who are freel number two, TopTow. They're an awesome sponsor of ours.

And for those of you who are freelancing out there, would like to be testing out a freelancing option, or even trying out, if you've got a full-time position, and you're like, maybe I would like to freelance. Maybe I can do some fun things with Node or Rails or some cool, edgy new technology, but you don't want to quit your day job. So you want to work kind of in a no risk kind of freelance like project.

Top Talk can enable you to do that. They're looking for some elite senior engineers. You can work on special projects with companies like Airbnb, Artsy, IDEO, and many others. Work remotely on a beach or anywhere in the world. It doesn't really matter. And I read a lot of Twitter bios out there that say, like, I do, you know, this thing, you know, like whether it's Java or something else during the day. And then at night I'm hacking on or at night I'm a node hacker.

At night I'm a Rails hacker or whatever. Well, that nighttime thing you can kind of do with TopTown. To get started, you can head to TopTown.com slash developer and click join the best. And because they want to work with only the best senior engineers out there, they've got a well-thought-out four-stage screening process. It involves a personal Skype conversation to get you started to introduce you to who TopTile is, what their mission is, and see if you're a fit. And from end to end, the entire screening process includes an English-speaking test,

a time algorithm test, a quick technical interview with TopTile core engineers, as well as a test project. Once you've gotten through that process there, the sky's the limit. If you think you have what it takes, head to toptile.com slash developer right now to get started. Tell them the changelog sent you. Last week when I mentioned

this, I did invite some people to give me some feedback. We did get a little bit of feedback there, which is great because it seems that some people are really, really enjoying their experience with TopTile. So you can email me, adam, at thechangelaw.com. I want to hear what your experience is like. Go to toptile.com slash developer. To get started, click the button that says Join the Best. So I know that we were talking a little bit about responsive web design before the break here.

Andrew, did you have any notes on that? I know we kind of haven't really dove deeply into it yet. Well, I mean obviously everything Foundation is responsive and I think Inc. the same way. But what I would like to kind of get into because, I mean, if you're here, you're familiar with – if you're using Foundation at this point, you're familiar with responsive, just the idea of responsiveness. I'd like to kind of get into Foundation 5 and what's new with Foundation 5 and subsequently how you guys have altered the way that you're dealing. You know, you said that there's some different variables around your breakpoints and stuff like that. So why don't we talk a little bit about just what's new with Foundation 5 and how it's changing how you're dealing with things like responsiveness and stuff. Sure. I think the, I'll turn it over to Mark here to talk about it, but I think that probably the biggest thing that

we've, or at least the one that we're, we're talking about the most, cause we're actually pretty excited about it is a, a plugin of ours called interchange, uh, that we actually, we introduced the plugin in foundation four, but in one particular case and the foundation five, we've changed it, uh, pretty dramatically to do a lot of really cool stuff, but that's a big one for addressing responsive. I'll let Mark talk about it though. Oh yeah. So interchange that's, that's probably one of the bigger components of a foundation five. And we've taken the idea of just selectively loading an image based on a media query in your device since media queries we use some javascript to do this but since media queries inherently

don't allow you to prevent an image from being downloaded on a device interchange goes in with some javascript to make that happen so that you don't unnecessarily download multiple images on a small device. So we've taken the idea over to HTML content. So we can actually load in external HTML content with Interchange starting in Foundation 5. So if you have lots of content that may include images and all sorts of stuff that is not applicable to a mobile device, you could now use interchange to prevent that content from ever being pulled down to your device in the first place.

So this is going to make your websites feel just a little bit faster. So the use case that I like to throw out for this, and this actually, this came from Luke, again, this came from Luke Krupuski, was that if you imagine like on a, because if you build things mobile first with Foundation, and Foundation is built mobile first, so it's obviously encouraged to build things mobile first. If you're doing a page, for example, that has like a map or has directions or something like that, on a mobile device, you may just want to load an image. You may just want to load a simple, single, you know, mobile optimized image for the location. And you may want to have a simple, single, mobile optimized image for the location,

and you may want to have a link to fire up somebody's native mapping application. Whereas on a desktop, you may want to include a full-on interactive Google Map. Now, in the past, there hasn't really been a way on the client side, or at least without delving into backend device profiling or doing some sort of like HD access hackery to say on mobile devices, I only want to load this image on, on larger devices. I want to pull in, you know, a full on Google map, something that has a lot of assets, a lot of requests, something that's going to be very heavy and taxing on the device. Um, but with interchange now, uh, in foundation five, I can actually say for, you know, for a given media query match for something that's like,

you know, only a small device essentially, load this particular partial which just includes an image. Then if we detect that this is a larger device, this is a device that has a larger screen, is presumably more capable of dealing with a larger request, go ahead and load in a different partial, load in a different HTML section that has the actual interactive Google Maps, something like that. So we're taking the concept that we introduced with Interchange in Foundation 4, which was just loading the right image

for the right device. Now we want to be able to load the right just stuff for the right device, which has been like a huge thorn in the side of responsive design for a long time because it was most obvious with images for a long time, because unless you were doing stuff on the backend, which most people who work with foundation or build stuff with foundation, a lot of those people don't really actually have any access even to the

backend or even really care about the backend. They're mostly working on the front end. There was no way without dealing with the backend to say, you know, I only want to load the right asset for the right type of device. So with interchange, we, we tried to do that for images. Um, but this has been a huge problem and mobile devices are in some ways they're, they're kind of stupid, uh, which is that if you, if you do want to load the right asset, you can't even do it by like hiding and showing the right assets because mobile devices will load every piece of media that's on that page, whether it's shown or not.

They don't try to do anything smart about that. They're starting to. I think the dev builds of Chrome on Android or something along those lines will actually try to defer loading media if it detects that they're hidden by default. But that's going to be a while until that's any kind of standard, and we want to just get out ahead of that. So interchange is one of the larger components of Foundation 5 that we've added and the ability to just load arbitrary sections of arbitrary chunks of HTML, depending on a

certain media query. We've tried to make that as straightforward and easy for front-end developers as we possibly can. It's actually pretty simple to deal with. So that was a big one. This is a funny thing, too, because if you look at like historically speaking with mobile devices, as there's been a kind of a few things that have happened that have contributed ultimately to people paying more money for data, which is the data has been become increasingly faster, right? You have, you have access to a much, just a much faster connection than you used to have.

So subsequently, we've become comfortable with making devices download more assets because we're not afraid of them sitting there waiting. And then because of optimizing these assets, we'd actually download twice as much because we download the mobile version and we download the desktop version. So all of that contributes to ultimately your little phone in your pocket costing you a lot more money. And with all the unlimited data plans going away, it's just like, I mean, it just, it's mind boggling how the consumer is the one that's taking the hit for all of this stuff. So interchange kind of in an off way aids that, right? Because you, you don't have to download all of the content that is on the page just because you're trying to show a mobile optimized version of something. Right. And it's good for you too as the person who offers the site.

I mean obviously it's good for consumers because they're going to have to wait less. They're going to have to pay less. They're going to use up less of their data, which I think is actually kind of funny. Like if you don't have an unlimited data plan, which a lot of people don't anymore, if you have like a newer phone, like an LTE enabled phone, like you can burn through your data in less than five minutes. If you're trying, like you can just, I mean, I could fire up Netflix or whatever and just start playing, you know, some sort of HD episode of something and it's going to look great on my phone and it'll come down in LTE speed and it'll burn through 200 megs in like four minutes. Yeah. It's crazy. I did something

like that. I don't remember exactly what it was, but I burnt through, I was driving from Texas to Nashville where I live at. And I went through like two and a half gigs on the trip. And it was just like, you know, I don't even really remember. It was like streaming RDO and just doing different things and like, well, just data consumption. I get home and it's like, you've reached 60% of your plan. I was like, Oh my gosh, like how did this happen? It goes so get home and it's like, you've reached 60% of your plan. I was like, oh my gosh. Like how did this happen? It goes so fast. But it's still, and even with the speed of like LTE or the speed of like newer devices and newer networks, you still, if you're throwing the weight of every kind of asset and all the stuff that you need onto mobile devices and not really optimizing for it,

people are still going to run into just slow to load pages. Like the latency is still not good. The bandwidth is still on average in, in the U S mobile bandwidth is about a fourth or a fourth to a sixth. So it's, it's about 15, 20, 15% as fast as the average, like wired or, or, uh, or home wifi speed. So it's still, it's faster, wi-fi speed so it's still it's faster but it's not like it's crazy fast it's still quite a bit slower than than other kinds of

connections are and the latency is still pretty high and that's just in the u.s which actually does reasonably well we're not on top of the world by any means um but we do okay in in other countries especially in like or Eastern Europe, any of those kinds of areas, or a lot of parts of Asia, it's much, much slower. And you have to contend with much more demanding constraints. So it's getting better, but you still have to optimize things. And there hasn't been a way to easily optimize a responsive site

for front-end developers, we would say, until now. Well, we also – that brings up, I guess, another good point. As even a company who's hosting all this large content, most likely you're using Amazon S3 to store your images. If all your users are downloading these large images from your device, I mean, every time somebody downloads an image that they don't look at, you're paying the bill for them to do that. On that note, I mean something we covered recently and for subscribers of the ChangeLog Weekly, you'll probably remember this. We – I think it was in issue 13 actually. So last – the most recent issue, we talked about pre-browsing, which is kind of like a different topic,

but in the same vein. What are you guys' thoughts on pre-browsing, like using the rel tag prefetch to kind of pre-render or kind of go prefetch a URL? It doesn't quite change what Interchange is doing, which is choosing which asset to pull and whatnot, but it's still in this front-end optimization, I guess even somewhat anticipation of what the user wants.

I thought when prefetching or the rel tag for it or whatever became really available to use in any kind of browser, which was not terribly long ago. That was maybe a year ago. It was not particularly long ago that it became available at all. It's a really cool idea that I think has a lot of maybe unexpected ramifications and it's a little harder to use than, than it might seem at first glance. I think it's great from a user perspective, from a user experience perspective, I think it's great if you can do it right, if you can get it right. Because if you're on a page and we know with some certainty where you're going to go next, if that can already

be loaded, then obviously it's great to click a link and just see the next page and not wait for anything. That's awesome. I don't want to deviate the topic, but it's kind of a neat thing to think about. If you were hovering a particular target, like the mouse or the – and I guess on a touch device, this doesn't quite apply because you don't really have the hover effect. But, you know, I mean you kind of lose it there, which does kind of suck. But if you're on a desktop and you're hovering a particular element, you might anticipate they're going to click the button. And if they do, you can kind of prefetch maybe temporarily and start pulling down some assets. And if they don't, then, you know, kind of kill prefetch.

So maybe dynamically apply the real tag. I just wanted to know what your thoughts are on it because it's all around this speed, you know, your need for speed. So the cool thing about it is, yeah, it's like an instance like that where you can either predict based on their behavior where they're probably going to go next, then do it that way. Or what we've actually even tried to do ourselves is to look at analytics and just go, okay, if they're on this page, most of the time, the next place they go is here. So we'll actually try to selectively apply the prefetch property to that page. Now, the downside is that, I mean, on your laptop at your office Wi-Fi, that's kind of, to some extent, irrelevant whether we get it right or wrong. I mean, if we get it wrong, then it's going to be a little bit of a slower load.

It's faster if we get it right. But the data and everything like that is kind of unnecessary or it doesn't really make any difference. On somebody's phone, though, if we get it wrong, we just cost them money. Yeah, so true. We cost them money. We probably cost us money because we're hosting it. And you don't really have any way of predicting. Like you said, there's no hover.

So you can't use their behavior to necessarily predict what they're going to do next. You could maybe try to use position on the page, something like that. But even then, if you're trying to do it predictively, God help you if you get it wrong and you've done it three or four times while they're on the same page. Right. Then you're just screwing them. And I think, I'd have to actually check, but I think a lot of mobile browsers, if they are prefetching stuff, they don't technically consider the entirety of the sort of like fetching transaction to be done until the prefetching is also done, which can give the perception that it's also taking a lot longer to load

than it really is. Or at least you'll still see sort of like the little data ticker, like on most devices, you can kind of see when network traffic is happening. The page might be fully loaded, but there's still something going on. And I know there's some people who actually notice that and kind of feel like something is not quite right, I guess. It's almost a little too transparent. I think it's a super cool idea. I think it should probably only be used when you're pretty confident. I think analytics are a good way to do that. We've done it so that, I know we've done this in the past with some of our apps or with some of our sites, is that if our analytics say that if someone's on a certain page, more than 80%, more than 90% of the time they go to this other page next, we'll, we can be pretty confident

in that and we'll, we'll potentially take the hit. Um, cause it is just a really cool experience. If you like go to click on something and it's just there, like it's just even on a desktop, that's cool. If it's just like, boom, it's done. It just feels nice. Um, so that can be, that can be really cool. I think it's, I think it's interesting tech. I think you just have to know what you're doing. Awesome. It's kind of a rambling answer to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was rambling. No. So we're kind of up against it here. Uh, anything else you want to cover in foundation five, uh, kind of a sales pitch before we just briefly mention Ink a little bit? Yeah, we can do a quick little laundry list of things

just to watch out for in the new Foundation. We've finally, by popular request, integrated the off-canvas layouts into Foundation, which are those patterns where you can have navigation or some other side panel kind of slide in from the side, like it's off the screen. Uh, we've done a whole new implementation of that. That's all hardware accelerated. It's actually really smooth. It's really cool. Um, and that's actually baked into foundation now. So we will not have to field any more questions about how to integrate it with foundation. It'll

just be there. Um, that'll be nice. Uh, we've also, we've redone, like we've redone tabs. There was a lot of stuff about that. We've written an all new, actually for the nerdy amongst the audience, we've written a new command line interface for spinning up stuff in Foundation, which Mark knows a lot better than I do, but it's... It's just a little wrapper

for creating a new Compass project. So you don't have to type in all the Compass create dash R Zerv Foundation, using Foundation, and set up a GIMP file for yourself, which we get a lot of questions about. So it just helps you to not have to write all those commands. You can use R CLI and say foundation new, and then your project name, and it can take care of the rest for you. Nice. You're leveraging LibSass, is that right? That's actually, so that would be something else.

We're using LibSass locally for, within the foundation repo to generate the documentation. Okay. So now that we've tested foundation in LibSass, if you wanted to use foundation in a non-Ruby project, we can safely say that Libsass is going to work for you. There were a few things that we were doing that didn't quite work. I think it was the opacity filter.

There's some known bug in Libsass that wasn't working, but it seems to all work now. We took our compile times down from about four to five seconds to less than half a second absolutely incredible right and then the the one last thing that i probably well there's two very quickly one is that we've also integrated fast click fast click.js uh into the whole thing just because the the 300 millisecond delay you get on touch devices when you click on stuff just it's just super annoying and it just makes everything feel slow and fast click is

actually pretty well done and pretty reliable, so we went ahead and just integrated that. So that'll just hopefully make things just feel snappier when you use Foundation to build stuff. And then we've also added a medium grid size, which people have been clamoring for. Previously we had a small grid size and a large grid size you could specify. Now you can specify when

in between using just classes. So that's been integrated across the board. So there's medium sizes for pretty much everything now. So definitely some stuff coming. Pretty much everything. I mean, there's some stuff that's just by popular request. We went ahead and included it.

We wanted to have those components. But the big thesis is that we're hoping this will be the fastest foundation to use, the fastest foundation to build with, the fastest foundation to learn, and the fastest one to actually deliver to people. And that comes out next Thursday, right? It comes out next Thursday. It comes out on the 21st, November 21st. And actually, I'll do this on the podcast thing. If you're actually in the Silicon Valley area, we're having a launch party on the 21st. If you let us know at Zerb somehow, you can catch us on Twitter or whatever. We will extend

an invitation to you and you can come get drunk with us. Awesome. Get drunk. It's a be good foundation. Exactly. Well, you don't have to get drunk. You can just watch us. Nice. Cool. So yeah, briefly, we talked about Inc a little bit. Give us the elevator pitch of Inc while we don't have a lot of time left. So I'll do I can do like a 30 second elevator pitch for Inc. because it's really cool. Inc. is foundation for responsive emails. So if you want to create rich emails that work on lots of different kinds of devices, they will actually, you know, they'll actually work basically responsibly. If they're on smaller devices, you can have a grid that actually works, that actually reshuffles things and moves things around in a responsive way.

You can use Ink to build that. We have all the documentation for it and everything written up. You can just find it at Zurb.com slash Ink. But we've started using it for all of our newsletters and stuff like that. It works in pretty much every major mail client, including Outlook, including ones that don't support responsive stuff at all, which was no small feat and a source of a great deal of stress for various people on the team who had to work on that. But it's pretty cool. And email kind of gets the short end of the connecting with an audience, and it's still one of the absolutely most prevalent means of communication and staying in touch with an audience, keeping them engaged. Rich emails are kind of a big deal, but Inkwell has stuff already built into it, like a grid-like foundation. It has buttons built in like foundation.

It has a lot of those components you'd expect from a framework, but in an email context. So it's the only thing like it that I know framework, but in an email context. So it's, it's the only thing like it that I know of. Uh, and it's, it's pretty cool. That came out last week. Gotcha. So is that, you said this, I think, right? Zurb.com slash ink, I N K I N K. Yep. It's, uh, we, we wanted to figure out what would be a word for it, which is essentially the way foundation is the foundation of building a website. We wanted ink to be one of the foundations of writing something. So ink, it was, it was between that and like a pen or a quill or something like that. But if we called it ink, that also gave us the opportunity to have a really cool squid for a mascot.

Yeah, that's awesome. And he's got in, in one of, in each one of his tentacles, he's got like a different device. It's like perfect representation of emails. Yep. So yeah, that that's uh that's out now it's uh you can you can download it and use it there's documentation and we support it and everything so awesome and that's also all open source it's on github you can download the whole repo you can submit pull requests everything so it's literally foundation for email i mean it's like the way you guys did foundation you you put that same amount of care and love into ink and pretty much awesome. Well, cool. Yeah. So these are two cool projects to be on the, on the lookout for just more cool stuff from Zurb. It's been about, I

think two years since the first time, uh, you guys were on the changelog and, and unlike last time, we didn't mention Britney Spears this time. So there you go. Britney Spears. Well, we mentioned her now. Yeah. She's been mentioned. Um, cool. Yeah. So, uh, for, for those of you that are new, we ask the same questions at the end of every episode and we'll, uh, go ahead and ask them now. So Jonathan, for a call to arm, so you officially release it next week. So what would be something you'd like to see the community kind of get involved with when it's released? When Foundation comes out, I would love to have the community really put the screws to interchange. I want to see what all people can actually do with that,

and I'd love to know if there are more ways we can do work on the front end to optimize the delivery of responsive sites. For most people, it's just too hard on the back end to actually do. Most people who are going to do front-end stuff, they can't do device profiling and HT access hackery and stuff on the back end. So I want to figure out ways

to really optimize this on the front end, including if we can figure out any way, and we've talked about it a little bit here, but if anybody has any bright ideas on client-side ways of optimizing the delivery of assets based on the bandwidth and latency of the client, that would be amazing. Cool. So any bright ideas there? Awesome. Mark, anything to add to that or anything different?

Well, I would love to see more people active community on GitHub, the issues section, and just love seeing people get in there, answering questions, helping us continue to refine Foundation and just make it more awesome. So hoping to see more people get involved and helping us out. Yeah, anybody who wants to get on GitHub and help us close out some issues, that would be just rad because every issue that somebody else closes out is one less thing that makes us go gray. Right. Yeah, that's a common a common request it's kind of just like a it's almost like a secretary of issues somebody to help out with just like managing this stuff because it becomes i mean

when you're in open source when your project gets big enough man just managing the issues and like validating the requests and stuff becomes a full-time job and so it's definitely something that people need help with. You can't see Mark's face, but he's going, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, because he's had to do that. Oh, God. Yeah. Late nights. I can imagine.

So if you weren't doing, if you weren't working at Zurb, Mark, what would you be doing? I would probably be out sailing or mountain biking. Two sailings in a row? That's two sailings in a row. That's two. Oh. Well, I hope that doesn't sound cliche. I'm pretty sure Kalen said he'd be sailing too.

Yeah, yeah. Mark's got all kinds of stories about adventures on catamarans in the ocean and around some islands and whatnot. He's quite the sailor. I don't know. I was out in the Grenadines earlier this year, and it was just absolutely magical out there. Warm water and the best pina coladas you'll ever have. Awesome. What about you, Jonathan?

If I wasn't working at Zurb, if I wasn't working at Zurb at all, I would actually, in a perfect world, and if someone would give me the $15 million or so, if anybody's listening and wants to give me some money, I would love to have my own movie theater actually dude i'm right there with you man yeah yeah fantastic we got to find someone who's going to give us about the 10 or 15 million you need to build the facility and get all the equipment yes man i would love to build a movie theater man see what we can find that's my that's my not so secret not working at zerb dream so just go dig up some of those gold bars that you stored in your backyard adam oh yeah i forgot about those you are in texas yeah

that's true if you got some of those i'll come take them yeah uh and then the last one is for a programmer hero so jonathan just someone that's kind of been influential in your life career to this point oh programmer hero i don't know if this is cliche for a front-end guy or not, but Paul Irish is a freaking genius. I really like most everything that he's done, although I will actually have one that is... Actually, I have a different one, which is maybe less cliche, but I really like the guy.

He's actually part of the Google Chrome Dev Relations team in England, actually actually his name is jake archibald oh yeah yeah yeah he is uh we he and i both uh spoke at a conference in finland earlier this year uh and his his talk was amazing not in partly in the content which was all about like animation optimization in modern browsers which was was just awesome. And like some of the best research stuff I've ever seen, but his actual slides were all built in HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. And we're just like some of the most amazing things I've ever seen. Like it was incredible. Like the, the, the things he can do with like animating SVGs with JavaScript along paths and like all kinds of just cool stuff. I did not even know you could do. I

thought it was awesome. Yeah. Kind of a weird tie in for him. He, I follow him on Twitter. He's got a, his name is, I think it's like a Jaffa, the cake or something.

Yeah. Every time he tweets and I see his avatar, you know, you see the avatar is like real small and can barely see him for some reason. His picture looks exactly like when Netherlands to me. And so whenever he tweets, I always think it's when tweeting with the changelog, there's something about him that looks like it's a weird, reason his picture looks exactly like win netherland to me and so whenever he tweets i always think it's win tweeting similar with the changelog there's something about him that looks

it's a weird tie-in but yeah you can you can ask jake about this but the the reason he only ever shows like half his face in avatars the other half is really ugly uh we can edit that out. Don't worry. That's fine. That's weird. I've told it to his face. It's really tough to name one person I would say, but I'm going to say Ryan Bates before I move down here. I used to watch, well, I still watch his screencast. He's been on hiatus for the last couple months now. A few months now, yeah. Yeah, actually, the last screencast he did was on Foundation, which was kind of funny. But definitely he just, last couple months now yeah yeah actually the last uh screencast he did was on foundation uh

which was kind of funny uh but definitely he just i always admired someone who could take a really complex subject and break it down and make it seem relatively trivial and easy to learn yeah we love ryan he's a good guy and i uh i don't you know I don't—the update he wrote just a few weeks ago, I think, about the kind of—he's still going on hiatus. Get some time off for you, but, man, the community definitely misses his contributions because he does some really cool stuff. Yeah, we've been talking about Burnout, and it seems like it's a mixture of that, and I think he was sick for a bit. But, Ryan, if you're listening somehow, you're just like chilling, listening the change all for whatever reason maybe you're maybe aren't we wish you well my friend for sure we we want to see you back but back better for sure yeah take your time for sure awesome cool well that's uh that's a good show man i'm uh i'm stoked you guys were able to come

on and talk about foundation five jonathan i know you made an appearance a while ago and it's been a while since then but you guys have been i mean i think when it talks when we talk about the competition of frameworks and whatnot i think what the listeners of the show would definitely need to know is that like you guys have been in it for the long haul i mean everything from what you guys have been doing at zurb to what you've been doing with foundation you know you've been committed so if i think one thing we do when we choose or make choices to use frameworks or whatever is trust. And I believe you guys have definitely earned the trust of the community. And you guys are leaders in many, many ways. And we just appreciate you sharing it with us, honestly, and then inviting us to contribute.

That's super awesome. So we want to thank you for taking the time to come on, Jonathan and Mark, for sharing their wisdom here, for sure. And then Brian for reaching out and reminding me, hey, that you guys announced Foundation 5, which we covered today for you real quick, and we can't wait until next Thursday when you release it.

Well, thank you very much. We really, really appreciate it, and it's always fun to come on. We were stoked when you reached out and wanted to talk again. It had been a little while, so thanks for having us. It's a good timing for sure, I think, honestly. We appreciate you guys being so flexible too. I mean you guys came on so quick and nailed it.

Yes, for sure. Yeah, we needed a break today. Now get back to writing those docs. Well, next Thursday you have a big break, right? You've got the beer party, the drink up. Your launch party. Oh, yeah. We'll chill out for the party and then I'm sure on Friday we'll be pushing 501.

Yeah. And I also want to give a shout out to our sponsors, DigitalOcean and TopTel. I mentioned earlier just about us moving over to blazing i like saying it it's funny right blazing fast ssd cloud servers i mean i just think it's it sounds cool for one but i definitely think it's cool so if you've been reading the changelog for a while and if you're if you're browsing it right now as you're listening to this and it's much faster much zippier that's why so take advantage of our $10 hosting credit with them. Changelog sent me is how you do it. Changelog sent me. Use that when you sign up. There's a

coupon code spot there. If for some reason that doesn't work out, just email support. They're awesome. They're going to get right on it. And then I mentioned the tutorials that I use myself. And if you're a skilled person in any sort of way and you can share some knowledge back on how to do something with a DigitalOcean server or how to use a certain piece of open source technology, you can get paid $50 to write tutorials. And we'll have some links in the show notes for that. But also email Barry at DigitalOcean.com if you want some stickers. He will ship them around the world.

I don't care where you're at. He'll send them to you. And then TopTile, you got to join the the top towel network if you're into freelancing and and you definitely have to check them out top.com slash developers to apply work with some awesome people around the world uh and if you haven't yet they also have a really awesome engineering blog we'll have a link for that in the show notes as well. And they've been featured a couple of times on the change all too. So that's, that's been awesome. But,

uh, that's it for us. I think, I mean, I'm just stoked. We're on digital ocean and it's super fast. Uh, I'm just,

I'm, I can't believe it. I'm excited. But, uh, Jonathan, Mark, thanks again for coming on the show and,

uh, let's say goodbye. See you guys later. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. Bye. you