The Chaser Report - An Unacceptable Cop-Out | Karen Iles

Episode Date: October 11, 2022

Content Warning: This episode contains topics that may distress some viewers. Karen Iles shares with Dom and Charles the traumatic story of how abuse she received as a child was mishandled by the very people who are supposed to bring her justice. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Just before we begin, we want to let you know. Today's episode of The Chaser Report contains some quite heavy themes. It deals with allegations of child sexual assault. And our guest will explain how, in her case, the police did not investigate the matter seriously. Confidential information, counselling and support can be obtained from 1,800 Respect. You can call 1,800 respect or go to 1800respect.org.aU. And of course, lifeline.org.aU and beyondblu.org.a.u. are also very useful places to visit if you feel the need.

The Chaser Report is recorded on Gatigal Land. Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is The Chaser Report. Hello and welcome to The Chaser Report. I'm Charles Firth and with me today is Dom Knight. Hello, Charles. And today we've got a very special guest on the podcast. Her name's Karen Isles and known of her many, many, many years. Something happened to her when she was very young, a horrific assault.

It's something that she's recently decided that she needs to talk out about. And so we want to talk about that and highlight that case here today. Hello, Karen. Hi, Charles. Hi, Dom. Thanks for joining us. Long time, no, C. I know.

I know. It's amazing. I haven't seen you for about 20 years now. But so, Karen, let's start at the beginning. What happened when you were young? Yeah. Big gulp. It's a bit of a story.

Thanks for the opportunity to, I suppose, have a bit of a chat about this. So when I was 14 years old, I was on holidays, a family holiday. And I came across a group of men and teenage boys. And during the course of that holiday, I was sexually assaulted multiple times by a gang. And sorry, you can hear it's a bit tricky to talk about. Understandably. And so, you know, I was a child. I was completely disorientated.

I had no idea, really, which way was up. So this terrible thing happens during the course of a family holiday. It happens on a number of occasions. And we know that this is incredibly common. This stuff happens all the time. But generally it's not reported. Generally, people don't necessarily come forward. What's been your journey with deciding?

to speak about it following the incident. Yeah, sure. So for me, the sexual assaults occurred in both Queensland and New South Wales. So from the outset, I knew that I'd be dealing with two different police jurisdictions, Queensland Police and New South Wales Police. So as a 23-year-old when I walked into Newtown Police to first make a report, I kind of already knew that it was going to involve complexity because it would involve two police departments in two different states working together. And unfortunately, over the last

18 and a half years, as I've been trying to get the cooperation of two different police forces in two different states, it's just proven immensely difficult, near impossible to get them to do anything at all themselves or anything at all in a collaborative way. So it's been 18 and a half years of the police essentially stonewalling since they first learned about what happened here. Yeah. And people have said to me over the last week, they're like, gee, you're very patient. And I think as a solicitor, you've got to believe in the justice system, right?

Because if you don't, the alternative is that people take matters into their own hands. And I've certainly been the type of person who has soldiered on, who has. in my professional capacity worked for the human rights of others and have tried to downplay myself the severity of what happened to me as a child and it was only this year when I worked with the Guardian Australia and the reporter there went and spoke to other independent legal experts and the most shocking thing I think for me was hearing my peers in the legal profession describing that the assaults that had happened against me and a friend of mine were perhaps the worst sexual assaults ever reported to police in Australia. And for me, that really hit

home that, okay, well, it is something bad that that happened to me and my friend, and that it's actually quite shocking and the fact that the police have refused to do anything. And and not just not just not doing anything there was evidence that was destroyed there's names of perpetrators there's i can see my perpetrators on facebook there there was a co-victim witnesses all of this was provided to police so i think that you know anyone's sitting back and listening and thinking oh well they mustn't have you know it must have been a he said she said or or maybe there were drugs and alcohol involved or maybe this or maybe that or maybe the police were busy I just don't buy it.

This is an extraordinary thing. So you came forward relatively early in the schemes of these kinds of things after about 10 years. You're a lawyer. And from what you're saying, the fact, circumstances, the evidence and so on were incredibly extensive. And so I just asked the question, well, if not this, then what? If even this situation falls foul of the investigative process because it happened in two states or for whatever reason, you just think, well, you know, isn't it, isn't the whole system broken, I guess, is an obvious question.

Can you talk us through, I guess, how things unfolded since you walked into the police station? What did they do for 18 years? That's a very good question. And in 2021, I undertook a complaint process to both Queensland and New South Wales, their versions of the Police Integrity Commissions. And I also finally undertook a freedom of information request in both states. And what those documents show is that, in fact, police have done nothing for 18 and a half years.

There are no records of them doing any of those, I think, minimum expectations that the general public would have in a matter like mine. But I also know that I'm not the exception, I am the rule, that only 13%, of women and adult survivors of child sexual assault ever report to police. So already you've got, you know, a large portion of the public that don't report to police. And I think others might have commentary on why people don't feel confident in coming forward to police. I don't think that accounts of dealing with the police such as mine give confidence to the public who haven't given confidence to me, I have to say.

It doesn't give me any confidence. It's absolutely shocking, right? Did they at least talk to the people that you'd accused? No, so for 18 years, what the record showed is that in New South Wales, within days of me providing what I understood would be the first of many statements, they actually got rid of any copies of my statement, the childhood, very embarrassing childhood diary, all of that was gotten rid of in New South Wales

and apparently all given to Queensland. So in 2005, after having the file at Queensland Police for one year, I then learned later through the FOI materials and through a call with Queensland Police and confirmation in 2018 in writing from Queensland Police that in fact my file had been, and all of the evidence within it had been, quote, destroyed a year after they received it. and I mean look that's that is just shocking to hear that your your truth your experience that you have been holding and trusting that the police that they've got it right that they've got your statement that you've got your evidence that that it's within their custody and care and that when it gets to the top of the list surely they'll do something to then hear that it was deliberately quote shredded and quote destroyed was gut wrenching It just made me feel like the whole earth collapsed under me back then. And it was so traumatic as well to hear that I had been calling Redfern and Koolandah police from 2004 through till, well, through till today, right? But through till 2018, 2019, and no one had had the dignity or the humanity to tell me that actually, no, we've gotten rid of it all.

And not only did they not have the humanity and the dignity to tell me that, it's also illegal to destroy evidence in a criminal matter. I mean, you think, right? And certainly for aggravated child sexual assault, right? There's no statute of limitations. So how on earth these things got gotten rid of? It beggars belief. And beggars belief in two states that not just one state, not just one police force,

but both police forces. did that and still haven't investigated it, still haven't called a perpetrator, still haven't called a co-victim, still haven't called, you know, any of the other witnesses that I mentioned, still haven't, you know, it's ongoing. It's not like they've investigated and, you know, all bets are off and it's all done and dusted. There's still no action. And if I, as a solicitor, can't make this happen, if I can't get justice for myself, and I find it incredibly difficult to get just to get justice for clients that come to me who also face this similar challenge with police. How on earth can anyone do this? How on earth can a parent of child have confidence in our police

forces in Australia? And I can say from my own personal experience that this is an issue in both New South Wales and Queensland, but I don't have much faith that this would be much different in any other police force in Australia. You were saying before that the assaults occurred in both States. It wasn't even a matter of trying to investigate when you live in a different state to the state whether the incidents happened. It happened in both places. And so you think both of them would be investigating it separately at the same time. And in fact, neither is. So New South Wales Police have not investigated crimes and aggravated child sexual assaults that happened in New South Wales and nor have Queensland police investigated or are investigating

to my knowledge, aggravated child sexual assaults that happened to myself and a co-victum in 1993 in Queensland. And what's their excuse? Has anyone said sorry? I would love to know, Charles. It's been very difficult,

and this is why I think we need some kind of transparent complaint mechanism for police. Yes, because you said it's illegal to destroy evidence. I assume the police. and whip into action and investigate themselves? Investigate themselves about that, but did they? Well, that's what I asked them to do. So I went through the proper channels in 2021.

So over in June, 2021, so that's over 12 months ago now, I made a complaint to the Police Integrity Commission, Police Link in Queensland, about the way that police had conducted themselves over the last 18, 19 years. And to this day, I still haven't received a response. I was at pains to say, I do not want the same police investigating the same police, that I want someone independent, someone transparent, investigating why on earth Queensland police have not lifted a finger to investigate what others deem and describe

as some of the worst sexual assaults ever reported to police in this country. In New South Wales, in 2021, I also complained about the way. that police had conducted themselves over the last 18 or so years, and I complained to the LECC, which is our body here in New South Wales. And again, I was at pains to say, I do not want South Sydney Local Area Command investigating their colleagues in South Sydney Local Area Command. And unfortunately, that's exactly what happened.

And the response I received six months later in writing was essentially a paragraph that said there was a communication error. A communication error. It's just like, what is that? What is a communication error? How is that at all satisfactory to complaints of such gravity? It just beggars belief. And I think that many of your listeners would have their own ideas

of perhaps what's going on with inside police that means they're not investigating child sexual assaults or violence against women. And I think we're seeing that play out at the moment in the inquiry. in Queensland into police conduct. And it's horrific what's coming out of there. And I expect that the same would be happening in New South Wales.

I have no reason to think otherwise. And I'm sure that if I look at, on the websites of both the New South Wales Police and the Queensland Police, I'll find lots of statements about they take everything seriously. They respect women. They investigate all these sorts of things. They care, right? They really care.

It's devastating to hear that that's not at all how it works, particularly in such egregious circumstances as your story, Karen. It's absolutely devastating to hear this. Yeah, that's right. And, you know, I have stepson and he is the age that I was when I was sexually assaulted and I have a stepdaughter who's approaching that age. And I think as many of us who have children or have young people and children in your life and in fact don't even need to have children in your life, I think everyone

can remember themselves at that age. It is absolutely heartbreaking to know that this is the response that police give and that this is the norm. This is not the exception. With respect, I think all of us deserve the approach and the seriousness that the police have given matters like Brittany Higgins, Chanel Contos, race tame. They are the exception.

They are not the rule. It reminds me of the very tragic story of the alleged victim of Christian Porter, who was also caught between two different states and nothing was done. And it seems as though where, you know, across state borders are involved, maybe there is a need for reform. Maybe we need a federal approach to look at situations like this. It just seems as though, you know,

you've been basically mutually forgotten by both of them passing the buck is what it sounds like. But that the distraction of evidence is just, I don't know how you, you know, how you found the strength to keep talking about this. And after the absolute gut punch, that must have been. And I'm very grateful that you've, you know, come and talk to us about it. You've done a lot of media to do with this. You've been talking to TV programs and so on as well as The Guardian.

What's that process been like? And why did you feel you needed to take this to the media? Well, I think that the media, unfortunately, well, fortunately, are they seeing. society that is that is holding our police forces to account because they're not holding themselves to account and at the moment government is not putting in place other mechanisms that would do a better job of holding the police to account and that's why I think we urgently need some attention on how broken this system is and how how rife these type of attitudes and cultures are within our police forces, that what we need is to codify at the very least

some minimum expectations of what our community would think would be appropriate for police to do when they have very serious crimes reported to them. And I'm not suggesting that police need to investigate every single report of a noisy barking dog coming across their desk. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that for very serious crimes such as aggravated child sexual assault that police have a legal duty that they must investigate and that that investigation must be to a transparent minimum set of standards. Because without that baseline expectation, you then can't have anyone externally hold them to account because there is no expectation. So I think we need those two things. We need a duty that is

legally enforceable. And then we need a set of independent, transparent mechanisms that people can complain to police about if they don't have a good experience and have trust and faith in that process, that complaints process, that they will be dealt with fairly and reasonably. And perhaps some central body or authority that says, okay, this has been logged, how's it going and checks and puts pressure rather than them saying, you know, being responsible? to themselves for doing it. Have you ever read the work of the right of France, Kafka at all? I mean, this sounds like an extraordinary bureaucratic.

It's all very Kafka-esque and Orwellian, my whole experience. But I think that that's that, unfortunately, these are the experiences that many in our community have. It is, and you feel like you're on Jerry Springer. Like, it's quite bizarre. Well, Jerry Springer at least gets people into a room and asks them questions. So I think Jerry Springer would be an improvement on this situation. Yeah, the Jerry Springer minimum standard.

He's doing well. I was in a student play of Franz Kafka's The Trial Once, and I must say it was an entirely Kafkaesque process. This conversation has brought back some memories of. So I guess where you are from the sounds of things, not only are they not investigating, you know, your allegations, at all, but no one's investigating why they haven't investigated allegations. So they're doing nothing and they're not even asking why they're doing nothing at this point.

Has anyone responded since you came forward in The Guardian? I believe that the, and this has been reported by The Guardian, that Queensland Police responded that they opened my matter again briefly and then placed a call to my solicitor and that she didn't get back to them. And so they quickly close the file. Oh, there's like a five-minute window, was there? My solicitor, of course, has a very different account, and she's now a magistrate. So unfortunately, she can't speak on my behalf anymore.

Well, that's not their fault. You snooze, you lose. Isn't that how it works? I know. I know. You've got to get in quick. And so it really did feel like Queensland police were somehow victim-blaming me. that all of a sudden, you know, I was the lazy one, but after 18 years, if they're complete,

you can insert the word that describes their behaviour. Corruption. Corruption. It's all of a sudden. Charles, can I, I think we need to give Queensland Police the right of reply though, in the interest of being. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you send them an email, give them 30 seconds to reply?

Yep. And then after that, it's the matter's closed. Okay, I've just sent the email. the email um okay they they haven't responded sorry nine eight seven six five four three two oh they didn't get around reply close a file and um in in new south wales um the response was similar that um oh well we're we're waiting on more information um from missiles and and you think what more do you need you've got the names of the purpose And you'll just destroy it anyway.

You'll just give it away and then destroy it. I know, right? It's like, what more do you need? Like how much more of a silver platter do you need this on? There is someone you could talk to. I've got a suggestion. I've got a suggestion. There is, you know, luckily enough, there is a former Queensland cop in a very prominent

position. Yes. He's actually the federal opposition leader. Yes. I know. You can write him a letter. Thankfully, it was also part of the, I believe, was part of the Gold Coast Police Area Command, which is the same police area command that has destroyed not only the evidence in my matter,

but in many, many other women who have come forward with sexual assault. Well, I've been led to believe by recent reporting that not only is he a tough man of, you know, the police, but he's also, he has a heart of gold and he wouldn't believe how lovely he is in person. That's what they're saying. He's not a monster. He's not a monster. We've heard this a few times. So perhaps if your people contact his people, it'd be very interesting.

I mean, perhaps this could be asked on the floor of Parliament. You know, what happened in the case of Karen Arles? Can you please satisfy the House that, you know, that things are... I think that could be an interesting thing to happen. I think that would be a lovely question to happen. And perhaps I could go pay his electorate office if is it. I'm sure I'd be very welcomed. Like, if you want a giant prop, you come to the right place.

Karen, to keep us posted on this, this is, it's dreadful. That said, we have seen, you know, as in the case of Brittany Higgins, that media attention does tend to make things happen in cases where, you know, years of asking the police to do their job might not. So all the best with getting the answers that you so richly deserve. Thank you. And I hope we can change this system. Not even really for me, but for the many other women and survivors of child.

sexual assault that's my motivation in seeking out yeah look i think the idea that when you walk into a police station to report a serious crime that they should actually do something i don't think that's too much to ask somehow no neither do i let's see how we go all the best with it our gear is from road and we're part of the acast created network catch you tomorrow