The Chaser Report - EXTRA: John Safran's Puff Piece

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

When is a cigarette not a cigarette? John Safran tells Charles and Dom about his latest book 'Puff Piece',, which looks at the clever language and new products that the cigarette-making behemoth Philip Morris is adopting to try and retain its profits while also convincing its global audience of smokers to give up their ciggies – but potentially replace them with another product where instead of smoking tobacco, you... heat it. In typical fashion, the story's funny, circuitous and thought-provoking – and involves multiple visits to Father Bob. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Chaser Report, more news, less often. Hello, Dom Knight here, introducing another special edition of The Chaser Report podcast. In this one, Charles Firth and I talk to John Saffron. If you're a fan of The Chaser, you're definitely a fan of John Saffron, so I won't go through his very long CV, or talk about the amazing stunts he's done. We've actually mentioned a few of those in this episode, but I mean, the fatwa on Roe McManus, a particular highlight for me.

In recent years, he's written books as well, motor in Mississippi, depends what you mean by extremist. And what we're talking about today is his new book called Puff Piece, which is out now. What it's about is the ways in which cigarette companies, and in particular Philip Morris, are changing how they talk about themselves and their products to try and reassure consumers that they're not selling dag-yield cigarettes anymore. Instead, they're selling a thing called an ICOS, and they're even claiming that they're a health company. How does this all work? John's going to talk us through some of the logic. But of course, to get the full story, you'll have to read Puff Piece.

In a moment, John Saffron joins the Chaser Report. John Saffron, he's got a new book out called Puff Piece. Now, they did sponsor the podcast last week, but we would have talked to him anyway. John, thanks for joining us. Well, it sounds like there's going to be like a media watch kind of knockdown of this about how podcast watch is not a thing. Well, I like to think that it's part of the theme that your book has. well, like the compromise that we all have. Yeah.

We accepted money from you to advertise your book. Yeah. In the same way that, you know, Philip Morris sort of compromises people, but it's just, it's part of life. Well, that was what was so cool about looking at Philip Morris because it's such a high stakes example of this because pretty much anything short of Philip Morris, you can kind of go, well, you know, like really, like, I'm really finding it hard to get worked up about how Puff Piece sponsored the Chaser podcast.

And now he's been a interviewer. I mean, I'm even finding it hard to get it on anyway. Yeah, I know. But I'm even finding it hard to get worked up that like McDonald's says they've got a healthy meal because we kind of all know that they don't or whatever. But this Philip Morris in general, and particularly their brand new shenanigan, which no one knows about up until this book, is like such a, the most high stakes version of this that it's like hard to kind of go,

So, well, does it really matter that they're continuing to kill 8 million people a year? That was certainly a surprise for me was that all the way through the book, people are going, why are you so, what's your issue with Philip Morris? They're just corporate citizens just trying to make a buck in this difficult world. What is your issue, Saffron? Well, I think part of the reason that people think that is because there's just something about cigarettes, that it's the most un-zitegeist issue, sounding issue.

It sounds like something from the 1970s or whatever. Like, oh, great. Oh, good on you, John. Cigarettes are bad. Small round of applause. Corporations, like, oh, God, John. Thank God you're here to tell us all this, right? Except, even though it seems like such an unzite-guide issue,

compared to, like, issues, which of course are important. I'm not, like, ragging on people forever. You know, like, you have issues like Black Lives Matter. you've got things like me too you've got things like trans rights you've got all these things and they just sound like of the moment issues and then you've got uh cigarettes which sounds like yeah it sounds like a uh a 1970s type thing i say in the book it like it seems like the kind of issue like it's like a a yellowing faded windfield ad in a women's weekly magazine from the 70s that's like in a box in your garage that you've kind of forgotten about but here's the thing

it's still the number one health crisis in the world it's uh out of 52 million people who die of everything eight million die of cigarette related issues so those it's really zike dicey for the like the cancer cells kind of like growing in your body it is quite it couldn't be more topical for the cancer cells yeah it's immediate for them but it is a bizarre isn't it that we've spent the past year and a half, turning the world upside down to prevent one public health problem while we've forgotten about the other, which has killed, you know, also killed millions. Yeah.

But my particular interest in this, because I'm a sociopath, people would go, hang on, isn't John a sociopath? I don't understand why he cares about, like, public health or whatever. But my entry point to it was more, I was just so confused and curious because I read this full-page, ad in the newspaper maybe two world no tobacco days ago because there's a once a year there's a world no tobacco day put on by the United Nations and on the eve of that Philip Morris took out a full page ad and they're saying oh we're we're going to close down as a cigarette company and we're going to relaunch as a health enterprise and we're going to be trying to get the one

the eight the one billion smokers a year to stop smoking. including all our own customers. I was like, wow. That's very impressive. Well done, Philip Morris. What's your problem with that? Well, I don't have a problem. I, like, I first gave them the benefit of the doubt.

I remember reading that paper. I was going, this is so interesting. Is this like when apartheid ended and the government just decided in South Africa, I'll listen, we just have to, we can't do this, and it's all over. So I was open-minded about it all. And then I started poking around. and I realized, I cannot believe it, but Philip, they're the people,

they're the Melbourne people, by the way, that I couldn't take what they were saying at face-made. Oh, my God. Really? So what they're doing, and it's so clever what they're doing, and it's so filled with, and it's also like so ten steps ahead of us and everyone, and so I'm like running after them trying to kind of understand all this. So, so what, this is what they say.

They've got this, they've been working on a new device, and to make this very complicated thing a bit easier to understand, let's nip this in the bar. This isn't a vape. So they've got this, they've been working on this new device for years, and they're releasing it, and they say it's not a cigarette. Right. So what is this? It's not a vape, not a cigarette.

So what is it? Well, one big thing. The European Union, their parliament, they decided, like, because they don't like cigarettes. And they want to ban all cigarettes, but they've got to start somewhere. So they did like this incredible thing last year, which was ban menthol cigarettes all across Europe. So you can't manufacture them and you can't buy them. And they chose menthol because you have to start somewhere and that's the cigarette that

young people who don't yet smoke, and also people who just don't smoke in general, that they're most likely to start with that, because it's nice and smooth on the... Minty fresh. Yeah, minty fresh, practically a health food. And so anyway, so it's getting banned. It's like, how wild is that? All across Europe, so probably the most consequential pushback against cigarettes ever. That is, man.

And Philip Morris, they go, okay, fine, cool. Okay, we won't produce menthol cigarettes anymore. We'll go along with it. Good on you or whatever. And then they said, oh, by the way, we've got this new product. And God knows it's not a cigarette. And then they show it. And look at this.

Look at that. So he's holding up a cigarette. That looks exactly. It's kind of like if a cigarette and a tampon had a baby. It's like a short cigarette. It's like a cheap cigarette. Fun-sized cigarette. So it's like, they say, listen, we've got this new product.

and it's tobacco rolled in paper with a filter at one end that you plant between your lips inhaling nicotine and tobacco into your lungs but God knows it's not a cigarette it's a heatstick it's a heat stick right and you might think how are they going to get away with this

because you just hold it up to anyone you don't have to say anything and they're like it looks amazingly cigarette like it's a cigarette Like, it doesn't look at anything like a vapor or anything like that. It's a cigarette, right? And then, but the most amazing thing is that the European Union, even though they had all those, like, wise lawmakers

working on this legislation for years to ban menthol cigarettes, they did not factor in. What happens is Philip Morris just says, oh, this is a heat stick, it's not a cigarette. And it worked. So menthol cigarettes are banned all across Europe, but they can still sell menthol heat sticks. And I just could not believe that.

And it was calling, wasn't it? Because they actually launched their menthol, it's called I-COS, isn't it? Their menthol-I-Cost cigarettes across Europe on the same day that menthol cigarettes were banned. Yes. So can we just ask how does that work, though? So you've got that cigarette, what do you do with it? So this is what they, I mean, I can, just a say, oh my God, I've got my heat stick cord in my ICOS.

This is like, I feel bad. Oh, wait a minute. So is that not an ICOS? No, no, no. You see, this is, this is where, this is where, like, part of all their misdirection. Just a second.

Why won't that come out? Hey, can I go off and get a few? ICOS even sounds like iPod or iPhone. They even put an eye on the front of it. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So then, so what happens is a heat stick, instead of being lit by a lighter, instead, what happens is you've got this little device here.

And it looks like a spaceman's, an astronaut's pen or something like that. It looks pretty cool. And what you do is, here, I'm holding this up, you insert the heat stick into that. And then you press this, and it heats it up to an incredible degree, the tobacco in the heat stick. Yeah, so the device is called the ICOS, but it never actually catches a light, according to Philip Morris. So they say that even though the heat is creating a discharge that looks like smoke and at the very least is filled with tobacco and nicotine that you inhale into your lungs, they say because it hasn't caught on fire, therefore it hasn't combusted, therefore, and they say smoke is caused by combustion, therefore this thing that kind of seems a lot like smoke containing nicotine and tobacco that you're in. inhaling into your lungs isn't technically speaking smoke.

Therefore, they use the word, and it's a very clever word, better. They say it's better than a cigarette. And they're very careful with that because, like, better's not safer or healthier, is it? Or less risky, really. You can't sue over better, can you? Yeah, it's better. But the way they present it, the way your ears are going to take it, is that this is safer or healthier than a cigarette. but the way I just explained this to you is not the way Philip Morris would and and it just shows their ingenious misdirection at every step of the way because I introduced a whole heat stick to you I said it is a heat stick it looks like a cigarette they kind of park that to one side and they like to talk about the ICOS which is this metallic looking device that heats the cigarette so therefore already you're kind of not looking at the thing that looks exactly like a cigarette and and and and

they're discussing the technology of it and how it heats and how you plug it in it's got a little light and everything so that's like the first major misdirection they're sort of making out this is the thing the icos when really no this is the thing the heat stick and that but they they're just like oh yeah anyway you just stick this kind of tobacco unit in a bit like that and so because they don't want you to like uh concentrate on the heat stick they want to concentrate on this thing called the icos, which just makes it even more confusing because you plug this icos into a wall to charge it. So therefore, I guess it's an e-cigarette, an electronic cigarette. And then you've also got vapes that you plug into a wall. So I guess they're an

e-cigarette. So suddenly you've got this e-cigarette thing, even though a vape and a heatstick are very different in the most consequential way, which isn't saying that there's not questions to be asked or dangers or even worse with vapes. I'm just saying that this is all part of the confusion that Philip Morris manages to leverage or whatever. So this is why this and a vape are so meaningfully different is because in a conventional cigarette, they contain tobacco leaf and tobacco leaf generates tar and tar is the thing that kills you it's like the main danger in a cigarette

whilst a vape doesn't contain tobacco leaf therefore it doesn't generate tar therefore people who support vaping they can say it's totally the truth they can say the most dangerous thing in a cigarette tar isn't in a vape but in a heat stick there's tobacco and therefore there's tar but they don't they don't call it tar anymore do they

no no no everything's uh i i just because we kind of hear and we don't really ruminate over it this whole thing of like oh language is so important and you can manipulate people with language and but this is like the most high stakes modern example of of doing this and the consequences of doing this. It's all like changing words and evaporating meaning out of words. So first of all, this isn't a cigarette for some reason. Then on top of that, they say it's not generating smoke, it's generating aerosol. And all this stuff I just went along with because like, what do I know, right? And then one day I'm just looking up the dictionary and I'm looking up, I'm going, well, what is aerosol actually? Because I don't know anything. And I look at aerosol,

it gives its definition. And then it's giving examples of aerosols. And one of them is smoke. So the fact that it's an aerosol doesn't necessarily mean it's not also smoke. But that's controversial. Oh, not controversial. That's complicated. But then on top. It's ironic, given that aerosols are the thing that we now all fear because of COVID. But anyway, that's a whole other thing.

And then the other thing is if you go and you want to research into this because, and you know that it's tar, that is the deadly thing in a cigarette. And then even years after, like Philip Morris was taking a court, because they, this is the olden days, because they were promoting low tar cigarettes as being a better alternative and healthier. And then the courts found and Philip Morris had to concede it. No, no, no, tar's just bad, whether it's low tar or regular tar and low tar. So tar is the deadly thing in a cigarette. So then you look at the ingredients in this and there's no tar in it, right? And that's because they've changed the word from tar. They've changed it to nicotine-free, dry particulate matter.

So if you're looking at the... And they're so clever at it that I was reading this in either a science or a medical journal and these scientists, and they hate Philip Morris. They're trying to take down Philip Morris and take down the heat stick and the icos. And even they got juped by this and confused by this new word for tar, nicotine-free, dry particulate matter. But it's even like, this is how clever they are, because I was always being suckered in, and then it's like I'm driving my car three weeks later and realized, damn, they got me again. And these are how good they are, even though I was writing a book all about

this, trying to expose all the trickery, after the book was published, so what I'm saying now is not in the book, I'm driving along, and I'm going, oh my God, they got me on another thing that I didn't notice. And what it was is that just look how audacious they are. Not only they changed the word tar to nicotine-free, dry particulate matter, they put in the expression in that nicotine-free. So, but they don't deny that there's nicotine in a heat stick as there is in a cigarette. It's just not in the particular matter.

Yeah. So they've taken the most infamous nicotine product in the world and they've isolated. the bit of the nicotine product that doesn't have the nicotine in it and then they stamp on the expression nicotine free. So now when they're talking about the heat stick and the icos, they can use the expression nicotine free

even though it's a cigarette in the most infamous nicotine product on the planet. Very clever. Or maybe I'm just very stupid. Who knows? Oh my God. So is this going to work? I mean, David's got all these fancy plans and whatever, does this kind of mean that people still smoke, but just with these far more

expensive? Because this reminds me the whole thing of, with inkjet printers, where you get the printer cheaply, but then you've got to pay for the cartridges. Is this another situation like that? Have they won through the Icos? Well, they're on their way to winning. It's hard to tell if they have won because you can't, you know, there's that joke. I think it's the start of one book or something, and it's like, hello, she lied. And it's like, with Philip Morris, everything they say is like, you don't even get to through the hello. It's like, huh, they lied. It's like everything they say, you can't take it face value.

And one of the things you can't even take on face value is because they promote how this has been quite successful in countries like Japan. But, like for instance, they say about Japan, they go, since we've introduced the heatstick and the ICOS, 30% of smokers in Japan or something like that, They've moved on to heat sticks, but there's been shareholders who have started legal action against Philip Morris saying, you misled us. You haven't actually, we don't think that's actually true. You've like overhyped it to try to, you know, get us to buy your shares, and we don't actually believe it. So it's like, it's very difficult to work out how successful this is so far. But it is successful in that they've laid the groundwork for getting around the menthol cigarette ban. in Europe and now they've laid the groundwork in a similar sense in America because

there's major parts of America where I think, I don't know if it's gone ahead yet, but in California, is it California? I don't know where it is. Let's just, anyway, one major state in America, they are either, they've proposed to ban menthol cigarettes and they either have or they haven't, but it's the same thing. They've managed to kind of wiggle around and lay the groundwork that when cigarettes are banned, they're going to be able to say, da-da, look at this, this isn't a cigarette. So they have been that really successful. And also, the other thing I really, I learned is that, I don't know how to tell you this guys, but I think us in our little arty community, I think we might live in a bubble and I think we might see the world

through a certain lens and other people in other bubbles see it through different lenses. So, One of the things that really struck me is I bought shares in Philip Morris. Oh, wow. Which meant I could get access to their shareholders meetings and things. And because of COVID and everything, they all have happening on conference calls and everything. And it really struck me straight away. Because the people in Philip Morris, when they're talking to the shareholders, you know, they really have to sell the story of how successful it is.

And we've got this much more profit, this much more sales and everything. And I just thought, like, we live in this bubble where like Twitter's everything and being dissed on Twitter and being told you're bad on Twitter is like, that's the worst thing that could happen or whatever. So we might think that everyone's, that's what everyone's consideration is. But if you're like work for Philip Morris, what you're really scared senseless of is going to these shareholder meetings and having to say, oh, yeah, this hasn't worked or we haven't sold as many. And so

Philip Morris are just like desperate. There's a limit to how much they care that people are saying that they're jerks and they're killing people because what they're really worried about is not that they're going to be dissed on Twitter. They're worried that they're going to upset the shareholders. And that's

also part of the reason for the ICOS and one of the reasons why it can have a slow build and it's still very successful because they have to tell the shareholders a story of why they're going to still be around in five years, 10 years, 15 years, when it seems like the world is against cigarettes. You know, they're being banned everywhere. And so Icos is like, is part of a

storytelling campaign to their shareholders of, we've gotcha. We're looking to the future. We've got something here for when cigarettes are banned. So, yeah, it's been remarkably successful in that sense, too. And another one, and the other way it's really successful is, Because lots of people don't like cigarettes. And so, for instance, I'll find it hard to even hire top-notch people because people don't want to work in a product like this because it's like, what do you tell your friends at dinner parties, that you work for a cigarette company?

So this is how ingenious they are. Because I've got this product, which looks like a cigarette, but they say isn't a cigarette. And they say, this is our future, this is our flagship product. And we want this, we want our conventional cigarette business to die off and be replaced with this. They get to tell a story to themselves and to their staff that you're not working for a cigarette company. You're working for a company that's trying to end cigarettes and move people on to these better, healthier, like, better alternative. And so that's another, like, ingenious way that, like, just playing with words, you can just,

bend the world to like this totally new reality and because I met people from Philip Morris and they're total believers they're not like um see I'm sure like there's all sorts of layers of people so there are people who are just like oh yeah we know we're bullshitting people but you have like younger people working for Philip Morris and they really see this as strangers that might sound to us on outside their bubble they really think this is like a social justice thing where it's it's like cigarettes kill people we've got to get people off cigarettes and this is going to help people. And the people of Philip Morris, as crazy as it sounds, they see themselves in some ways in the same world as like Quit Victoria or the World Health Organization is trying

to get people off cigarettes because they're saying we are an other, we are another organ of society that's trying to get people off cigarettes, just like the quit Victoria people. And then it gets even insaneer than that, where they say that they're actually better than the quit Victoria people because quit Victoria and groups like that and whatever the different states and different countries, their version of quit Victoria is, they say they're being unrealistic, they're demanding people, they're letting people die quit Victoria because they're just saying quit cigarettes totally or just continue smoking. And people aren't just going to quit cigarettes, so they're going to continue to smoke. So quit Victoria is actually like a bad because they're not giving

people these sort of like baby step options like the heat stick and the ICOS. So they, and they sincerely, there's people in Philip Morris. They sincerely think not only are they in the anti-cigarette business, but they're, they're better than the people from quit Victoria. But John, you know, in some ways your book launches the ICOS in Australia. I know, I know. It's, it's, it's, kind of, I had to write this book because, like, I had to be the person, because I'm the person who's, like, such a sociopath and so attracted to the tangles and so on to sort of like dive into the tangles that I loved all the, I love all the stuff that I have to do to get the story. So if I was, like, working for four corners, it's like, I can't buy shares in

Philip Morris, just, just so I can, like, weasel into the thing. Like, like, that's, that's, that's that's problematic but for me not only is it maybe it is problematic it's like i love it i love that i have to i have to put myself into these situations and i have to um do things that you're not meant to do to get the story i mean the other big thing that well part part of the delight of the book john is is your description of that journey and your compromises you make along the way Like, it's such a rollicking task, especially when Philip Morris actually offers you a free trip to Switzerland. Yep, yep, yep. So that was like, yeah, that's why I'm so good.

This is why I'm the man for this job, because anyone else would either try to hide it. Yeah, everyone would either like compromise and hide it. Well, they probably would either, or they'd just be going, I have to get this story some other way besides accepting a bribe from Philip Morris. I shouldn't say bribe, accepting a junket from Philip. Philip Morris. And whilst I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe how lucky I am. I'm working on this book. And I'm going to get a junket, which just makes the story so much more confusing.

And he's going to mess with the reader's head. And they're going, oh, my God, I can't believe John's doing this. I'm so confused. Is John bad for doing this? And because I'm just such a dead, because my dedication is like being a storyteller, as opposed to being, I don't know what, an activist. or a journalist or whatever, or even I'll pay it. I just love it.

I can't, I could not believe my luck when I was like writing this book about how Philip Morris kind of use their money to manipulate people and try to bend their story all the way. And then when it ends up that they, you know, they take me out to lunch and try to do it to me. I couldn't believe it. And like, imagine, and then what, I mean, then what happened was, unfortunately, obviously for the world, COVID and then lockdown, which meant I'd kind of, not a kind of, I definitely accepted this compromising thing of the junket, but then I couldn't go because it was a bummer. We couldn't go in lockdown or whatever. So, but then afterwards, I was thinking, because again,

I'm just so driven by the whole storyteller thing. And so afterwards I was thinking, because anyone else would think, oh, that, that's a bummer, because it would have been great to go to Switzerland and get to the Philip Morris factory or whatever, right? But then I'm I was thinking to myself, just say they said, oh yes, you can come to Switzerland, but I'd done it on my own bat, you know what I mean? Like, I just got bought the ticket myself

and went there or whatever, and got into the Philip Morris headquarters or whatever. That's not half as awesome as being offered the junket and accepting the junket. Like, that's the killer. You've already compromised there. That's a solid gold.

That's a solid gold material. And I'm like so much happier. that I was given a junket and accepted the junket and didn't end up in the headquarters in Switzerland rather than I would have ended up in the fact headquarters in Switzerland, but like in a kind of journalistically ethical way. You're accidentally ethical.

Yes. Yes. No, no. I think it's the opposite though. Because you accepted the junker. You were completely compromised, but you didn't get the benefit of the compromise. I know, I know.

It was even worth, like the stuff that, because it was so much material. like I um you just can't put everything in the book but I promise you I promise you I'm not hiding at it if there was anything worse I absolutely would have put it in the book but it was really funny how after the junk it was offered like the conversations I was having with friends like because no one was like how very dare you everyone was like so what do you reckon do you reckon it's going to be like a first class flight or are they just going to put you in economy but john without wanting to spoil the end of the book, you do, you actually end up with a bit of a scoop.

Oh, yeah. That was, um, that was pretty amazing. Like, when you say scoop, you mean like, it's like front page of the age scoop. Yes, totally. Like, because it actually goes into the harder, without wanting to reveal exactly. It's about how Philip Morris actually orchestrated things in the political system in Australia. Yeah, like stuff that's like never been revealed before. It's not, yeah, it's so, I was so excited.

But to do that, to get that scoop, you sort of betrayed a kind of friend slash contact. Yeah, I know, I know. And it was all sort of accidental as well. You didn't even mean stuff. But don't call it betrayal. Call it friendship 2.0 or I friendship. Well, to be fair. You just rename it.

To be fair to me, like, it wasn't my fault. And also, the person who I quote unquote betrayed, like they were very high up at a, in an organised so it wasn't like I was kicking a puppy or whatever and also it was totally

newsworthy and everything like that but what's his what's his reaction been um

I know that he likes the book right yeah it's very because I think it's a sympathetic portrayal of him yeah

and it kind of it doesn't make him look bad or anything like that it just makes me look well it doesn't make me look bad either it's just like a thing

but yeah it'll be very interesting because it's early days, like the book hasn't been out for even a week, and I'm not that cocky that I don't think there's not going to be some sort of blowback, which I can't, I don't even know what to expect. And how hard was the legling on it? Like, was there a lot of legaling? Well, I got pre-briefed before I went out on my adventure, and usually, because this is my third book with Penguin, and usually, usually Penguin just, like, I go off and, you know, like,

they, you know, I give them the idea and they might like it or not and, you know, toss up a few other ideas. But then once we agree on the idea, then I just sort of pack my backpack and go off on my adventure. Go and see Father Bob. Go see Father Bob. Go hang around in the forest in Mississippi. Go do tequila shots with no Nazis, depending on what the book is. And then like I come back, whatever it is, 12 months later, and I'm more scratched and do. and then I hand in the manuscript and then that's when we start looking at the legals but then with this there was like a pre this is the first book where there was like a pre-meeting about dues and don'ts obviously because it's like a big corporation but

then Philip Morris litigious no but then very fortunately because I was so ethical and so on and so forth it was actually a lot of smoother than a person might expect. And also, whenever I get in kind of like legal, I have legal issues with my work, it's always so anticlimactic, or at the very least, not what a person would think they would be. So, for instance, like on, like my TV shows where I'm doing like all this outrageous stuff, what the legal note will be, it's like, yeah, like when I go undercover, when I send

people undercover pretending to be Slipknot, so they can. get into a nightclub or whatever, then the thing isn't that, oh, you falsely impersonated Slipknot, and it's not that, oh, you filmed this in this nightclub, and they didn't give you permission or anything like that,

or it's never anything like, it's like, when you showed the Slipknot album cover on screen, it was for about seven seconds, and that goes over the copyright, acceptable use quota. So we're wondering if you could, carve off two of the seconds and only show the slip-knot album cover on for five seconds, not seven.

So it's always like something like that. And same with this book. I think people would be surprised that everything was pretty smooth sailing. And there was a few legal things, but they just weren't melodramatic things or whatever. So I was very lucky, but partly that was because of the very fine, very good legal briefing by the good people at Penguin Random House. So if you're listening to this and working out with it as Sue, just Sue there. and not John, that's the tip. It's been fascinating, John.

I kind of want to delve down the rabbit hole of vaping just because it's so morally complicated. Yeah, sure. I'm really torn about vaping because I'm really against products that hurt people's health, but then I also think adults are better to do what they want as long as they don't hurt others via passive smoking, which has been the problem with cigarettes per se. You delved into this issue a lot,

and you met some of the key advocates in the industry. Where did you end up? So just looking into from a health perspective And because like the books Because the book's so much about Philip Morris It's sort of like about Philip Morris Elbowing their way into the world of vaping More than like it's not this really hectoring thing

Wagging my finger at vapors or anything like that No that's my fan is so interesting Because they were kind of allies at various points and so on Yeah I mean because I mean that that is another reason Philip Morris are introducing this heatstick And this ICOS is because they're at war with vaping because vaping is going to fill the hole in the marketplace

when cigarettes are banned and so they want to come out with their own thing and so they're very much in a war against vaping and the vaping industry as much as they're in a war against Quit Victoria. So just looking at purely from a health perspective and obviously I'm a comedian and you need to listen to scientists and doctors

and all that kind of stuff and experts but this is like a real the general stuff. And one of the things we have covered, we've already covered, but I'll quickly say it again, is like, so the difference between a vape and a heat stick or a vape,

is that vapes, you are steaming, it's steaming up a juice, and the juice is filled with nicotine, and it's got propylene glycerol, and it's got flavorings in it. But it doesn't actually have tobacco leaf, and because it doesn't have tobacco leaf,

it doesn't generate tar. Tarr's the deadly thing in a cigarette. So, can say the most deadly thing in a cigarette isn't in a vape. But then you're still inhaling all that stuff I just said. You're like these propylene glycerol, these flavorings. And so there could be, like that's going to have, in all likelihood, going to have like respiratory consequences, even though they might be different to the respiratory consequences of a cigarette but it's all early days so there's a lot of people can like cherry pick

this and that to support their argument but this is so that's what you've got to keep in mind that it doesn't have that danger of a cigarette of tar but you might you're still inhaling things that ideally your body shouldn't and that could have really have their own consequences but the other thing is I think what makes it a confusing when talking about it from a health perspective is I reckon well not I reckon other people people reckon, like the National Health Service of the British Government. So that if you're addicted to cigarettes, and I'm only talking purely from a health perspective, not any other perspective, if you're addicted to cigarettes and you spent like six months, nine months, even a

year or whatever, weaning yourself off cigarettes using a vape device, and then maybe you lower the nicotine rate as you go along, and then at the end of that six months or nine months or a year, you put to one side both the cigarettes, and you're not smoking of cigarettes anymore, but you're also not vaping anymore. I reckon in that context there's an argument that it's a tool, it's a public health tool or it's a tool for helping you out because it's got you off cigarettes. But then if you're just huffing on a vape for all hours, seven days a week, and you're going to do it for the next 10 years, I reckon that's a pretty big roll of the dice that you're not going to find out that that's going to have respiratory health consequences that could be really dire because

your lungs aren't meant to take in like things like that like your lungs aren't even meant to take in like steamed water for instance for such a sustained period of time so that's where I reckon it's a real role of the dice and there might be and so people who vape that much there just might be some bad news that even though even though the research is early at the moment of yeah it could be bad news so that's why it becomes confusing as a health argument about

whether they're healthy or not because it's kind of like depends how you look at it and it's all through the high schools as well my son who's 13 has already like several of his friends have been called in the toilets vaping and they're in year seven

he's going oh god and every parent knows that the nightmare is going to be everyone's going to vape in high school and you're just going oh this is like this is just another sort of cigarette thing but they're not marketed to kids with all the candy flavors no way but i mean the other confusing thing and i don't really have a end point to this but just it just explains why it's such a confusing matter to talk about is that nicotine in both a cigarette and also in a vape and also in a heat stick like the nicotine the agent that keeps

you addicted to the, to the danger, whilst in and of itself, and there's an asterisk after this, but generally speaking, in and of itself, the nicotine isn't the deadly thing. It's not the danger, it's the thing that addicks you to the danger. So then that just becomes so confusing because, yeah, because in the case of the cigarette, the nicotine's addicting you to the danger of the tar, whilst in a vape, the nicotine's addicting you to the danger of whatever the danger of inhaling this steam is. So nicotine is both the central point and also not the point, depending on how you look at it. So for instance, if you go to Chemist Warehouse, you can just buy nicotine gum without a prescription.

I don't think you even have to be 18. And like we live in a pretty strict country in Australia. So clearly the authorities are going, well, it's not nicotine in and of itself, because therefore how come you're allowed to buy nicotine without a prescription from chemist warehouse um especially when

when irresponsible people invent new ways to use nicorette yeah well in this book obviously i mean anyone who's familiar

with my work will not be surprised to know that as soon as anything was presented to me from heat stick to vape

to cigarettes to whatever to shisha pipes I was like yeah I'm going to try this I'm definitely not any of I'm going to try this because I'm a storyteller. I'm kind of secretly hoping I would get

addicted to it because that's going to be better for the story. But, uh, and so I have always been your own guinea pig, John. Yeah, I have. So I got, I started taking nicotine gum and I, and because it was such a pure form of nicotine, I was so like mildly getting addicted to it, I think. I mean, it's really hard to measure these things. But it's like, so disgusting. Like, it's all, it's kind of plain. but also disgusting or whatever. And then I had this eureka moment because I was thinking,

because the whole thing with the whole way that vapes are marketed is they're always like fun and flavoured. So it's like bubbly custard vape juice and raspberry pie vape juice. And so I was going, oh my God, why don't I do this with this gum that I'm liking, but I don't like the taste and it's all like it's just whatever.

I go, why don't I just like go down to the same? 7-11, I'll buy like Habababa and I'll buy a watermelon extra and I'll start kind of like blending it myself

and I'll sort of like and I looked up on the internet I'm going surely someone's thought of this before and no one had or there was nothing on the internet about it

and it's like I'd invent and I realized I'd invented this new form of like drug taking which I call juicy fruiting so it's like

so it's like where you get a nicorette or a nicobate or whatever oh God we can't have to Broadcast the method. Oh, fuck.

And then you try different ways, like a flavoring. So I did it like, is it called like pig in a poke? Is that what it's called? Like where you wrap a, or I don't know what it is. But yeah, so you wrap a bit of watermelon extra around the, uh, the nicobate capsule. And you chew on it and you're like, you're juicy fruiting. So it's like, um, yeah, so it's like, and I kind of haven't, anyway, I don't want to be irresponsible.

So I'll, I'll end that story unsatisfactorily here. Don't try this at home. It's, um, yeah. Oh, God. It's such a great story. And, um, I remember 20 years ago, something like that, you were, they had this amazing article in a thing called The Eye about how you, they tried to recruit you to host a kid show.

And it ended up that it was, um, a cigarette company that was behind the whole thing. A youth show, sorry, it was a, a youth show. Amazingly that story. Oh, and it ends up being Philip Morris trying to do it. Yeah. I know it just sounds weird, but because when I'm writing the book, because it's like, I mean, you've read it enough of the book where it's like this forward-propelling thing where, so it just put all these limitations on, like, diversions and, like, it just, just for, like,

writing reasons, it makes sense. So there were things that you just go, my God, how can that not be in the book? And, yeah, that story didn't make it in the book, which is just. Was it in the pitch of the book? No, there's other things There's other things in the book There's in the book about me Seeing Philip Morris

4-wheel drive Like a Melbro Drive into like this little village In West Africa When I was on race around the world And it's like mud huts And it's all that No electricity

And this bright Melbro SUV driving in So I put that in there Another thing that I'm kind of I didn't put in I put in the thing about how I got into court, taken to court for trying to get Shane to smoke because he'd taken up, it was Nicorette, a contract where, he'd taken up a contract where I think it was worth a million dollars, but a lot of money, and to endorse Nicorette.

And the one condition was he wasn't allowed to smoke, definitely not publicly. So, this is like one of those things that probably didn't have enough intelligent subtext to it, but, you know, come on, you're the chaser guys, you know, It's half an hour to fill. We've seen down that right. So even though this didn't really have probably enough like intelligent subtext to it, I thought I'd try to lure Shane Worn back into smoking

so he could void his Nicorette contract. So one of the things I did is I went down to the MCG when he was playing and I got a stuffed Seagull and I shoved it on a remote control car and stuck a cigarette between the Seagull's lips and I sent it out onto the field to Shane Warren and then I was arrested by the police for pitch invasion and then I was taking a court.

It was so humiliating because I've done stuff in my career where there's like some good sort of like, yeah, John stuck it to the system kind of subtext. Like, you know, if I went to court for like the Ray Martin thing or even like for this, for this film, at least it'd be like, yeah, it's the little guy against it. But it was like so humiliating having to be in court and, like, say, um, Seagull.

Anyway, so I put it like a remote condo C gal and all, like everyone's sniggering in the court. And, uh, yeah, so that, that story's made it to it. This other story, because I couldn't forget, because I thought it was too anticlimactic and I didn't put it in. And it's only since the book, I thought, damn, I could have put that in or whatever. It's because I worked, did work experience at an ad agency called Mojo and Partners. And they had the Philip Morris account, but it was like, I never worked on it. But I do remember one afternoon, the account director for Philip Morris came by our desk and said, oh, listen, we're wondering if you can get some slogans together and some product

names together for this new Philip Morris product because we're going to be testing it with a focus group. And I'll get a brief to you later this afternoon. And then, like, it just didn't happen. It was like one of the dozens of things each week at an ad agency that, like, someone says something and then it doesn't happen. So I didn't put that in the book Because I just thought it was like

Anticlimactic It's like it seemed a bit desperate Of me trying to like Make myself complicit But now I realize I could have So anyway, I don't know Second Edition Bottom line is Philip Morris is your Moriati

It's not going to be a second edition There's going to be another book Yeah I know I'm absolutely certain This battle's going to span for decades Well you've got to go to the cube in Switzerland Yeah I know I haven't burnt myself with Philip Morris

That they're not going to like Now let me go to the cube They want to win you over And then they'll offer you a fat contract with the face of the ICOS in Australia. I was shooting... I hope it makes it to TV because I was shooting a thing for the project

which they're going to cut together and I was smoking the ICOS in the things I was doing because no one knows what the ICOS is so I have to do that thing where I'm like, I'm basically the new Price is Right model who's sort of like slowly open that and showing how to put in.

So Philharis must be happy on that level because they're totally de-platform by everyone. They're de-platform by it. No one wants to talk to them. And one of the interesting things, and it's like, it's a bit of a tangle about how Philip Morris aren't getting enough focus on this new product, which they should be a bit of focus, is that the kind of people who are against this product are also just against vaping. So, for instance, quit Victoria, we'll just go, vaping's awful and blah, he shouldn't do it, and it's all just bundled in together, which is like, that's fine, that's their perspective. but it kind of in this tangled way means Philip Morris is getting away with people not understanding what's going on. Whilst, yeah, it'd be pretty cool if I'm the first person to smoke an ICOS on Australian TV.

I'm just imagining an ad, John, where you're at the MCG, and you get an ICOS, and you put it on a remote control car between the lips of a pigeon, and you send it out to Shane Warren, and he picks it up and goes, this is better. Yeah, yeah. But not safer. It's a fascinating story, John. Thank you for telling us all about it. And good luck with the addiction.

Oh, yeah, for sure. No, and yeah, I'll set up a Facebook group or something where we can all juicy fruit and explain all our different methods of juicy fruiting. Can we invest in it? John Safran's new book is called Puff Piece. It's available everywhere right now. And on e-book, regular book,

that's if you want to use the pages for Roley, but also audio book with me squeaking. because I know a lot of people like to hear audio books and people miss my show with Father Bob. Father Bob's big in this book, by the way. I do Father Bob's voice, though, so manage your expectations. But, you know, so it's going to fill that emotional hole of, oh, I really miss John squeaking in my ears with his insufferable whining.

So buy it in every format is what I'm here. Yeah, excellent. Thanks, John. We'll have a fresh episode for you on Monday. Don't forget to subscribe or follow the podcast on your app of choice. And leave a review on Apple Podcasts. We read them all out on the Friday episodes. Five stars is nice, but, you know, if you got this far, you probably enjoyed this one at least. Our gear is thanks to road microphones, we're part of the Acast Creator Network.