The Chaser Report - EXTRA: The Cure to Our Lockdown Blues | Hugh Van Cuylenburg

Episode Date: August 27, 2021

Zander and Charles talk to 'The Resilience Project' founder Hugh Van Cuylenburg about mental health, lockdown and the best way to stay afloat. Charles confesses that he can't meditate and Hugh tackles the big questions like 'what's number is too many lockdown beers'. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is The Chaser Report. Welcome back to The Chaser Report. I'm one of the interns Zander, and today we have a very special interview with Hugh van Kylenberg. Hugh is the creator of the Resilious Project and the host of the Imperfects podcast and works around the nation to help deliver evidence-based tips for people to improve their mental health. Now, we realized for the last few weeks on the podcast we were being quite blue and getting sad about politicians. getting sad about case numbers, getting sad about international politics and getting sad about getting sad. So we thought we'd bring someone on the podcast who could help us deal with that and hopefully in the process give you a few tips on how to not crash out every day during lockdown.

So now we are joined by Hugh Van Kylenberg, who is the founder of the Resilions Project and one of the two hosts of the Imperfects podcast. Hugh, thank you for coming on the podcast. That's a pleasure. I'm a very, very big fan, so I'm very excited to be doing this one today. Thank you for having me. So for people who aren't familiar with your work, what's been happening for you recently? Yeah, all very good questions.

I am fascinated with the topic of mental health and happiness. The reason for that is that when my little sister was 14 years old, she was diagnosed of the mental illness, I was three years older than her back then. Well, and I still am three years older than her. And I remember coming back from the hospital. It was an eating disorder. I remember coming home from the hospital after her first night in hospital. And I saw dad crying and I reckon I'd only ever seen dad cry once before that.

So I was 17 years old and I just had this very strong feeling of like, my family's not happy anymore. We're just not a happy family. It was an awful feeling and I, because we had been a very happy family up until that point. I just had this strong, I just became very fascinated with the question is what is that it makes people happy because I wanted, I really wanted mum and dad and my brother to feel, I knew I couldn't help fix my sister. That was well beyond me, but I did want to know what it was that would make them happy.

And I guess from that age, I became, I was really fascinated with that question and went into education. And it wasn't honestly till another, probably 11 years later, I found myself volunteering as a teacher up in the far north of India up in the foothills of the Himalayas, where I was. I lived in a community of people, no running water, no electricity, they slept on the floor. And I remember thinking to myself, never in my life have I ever seen joy like this before. Like, these people are the happiest people have met. And I sort of, I'll end up living with them for three and a half months.

And everything I learned from those people, I kind of brought back here and started talking about. And at the first, at first, no one was in the slightest bit interested in what I had to say, which is fair, which is totally fair enough. But slowly, it sort of gained momentum. it became quite big in schools and then corporate programs and elite sporting clubs. And yeah, now it's a program that 350,000 kids around Australia and New Zealand, you know, practice as part of their education and curriculum and school every day.

So I can't remember what the other questions were. That's how it started. And so what is it? Like just in, if you can do it in 15 to 20 seconds, what is the key to happiness? Yeah, well, what I saw those people do, which the research supports, it turns out, is they practice gratitude, empathy and mindfulness. So they stop and pay attention to the good stuff as it happens to them. And we're, we're shit at that in Australia.

Like, we're surrounded by so much good stuff, but we're not paying attention to us. These people were just, they had very little, but I'll tell you what, like every little thing they had, they were properly appreciative of moments, you know, water, sunrise, just little thing. So there was gratitude, empathy, when you feel what someone else feels and because of that, you kind of treat other people in a really kind way. They're extraordinary. They actually practiced it.

I actually practiced kindness as part of their daily rituals. And mindfulness was the third one. They did at the time, I remember thinking, what a ridiculous waste of time. Why are they doing this? But it turns out meditation is quite a good thing to do. And so that's what they did every single day. And there's other things I did as well.

But they're the three that really stood out to me. And is mindfulness things like, because my therapist always says, to me, Charles, you really should just breathe, right? Yeah, yeah. You just did your breathing exercises, you know, a couple of times a day. I promise you, you would just feel a hundred times better. And I go, oh, yeah, yeah, I will, I will.

And I never do it. Yeah. Why? And it's like, it's like four minutes of a day. And I never, why don't I ever do that? Like, what's, what's the block? I don't, I don't do it either because I, like, I get, you know, try this meditation, do this meditation, do breathing exercise.

And for whatever reason, that instruction does not resonate with me. I just can't find time on my day to sit still and do. It's not my personality, but what I can do, what I have found is that walking a lap of the block once a day, which takes me 10 minutes, and all I do is think about what I can hear hear. So I'll go, I can hear birds, I can hear cars, I can your trees. And my brain will go, I've got to send that email. I've got to do that podcast recording.

And I start thinking about all the stuff that's happening tomorrow or the stuff that happened early in the day. And the second I noticed myself doing that, I go, no, no, no, what can I hear? me that more tactile like getting up and moving around and that just works for me I think it's about finding whatever works for you and when I say that like mindfulness is just paying attention to what's happening as it's happening which also we really should have doing well our thoughts are all over the place so I guess when they say breathing exercises I agree that helps like if you're spending time each day focusing on the breath yeah you're paying

attention to what's happening as it's happening but I don't that doesn't work for me either like I don't yeah I don't feel like doing that either oh that's that's great to hear somebody else sucks at that but the thing that the thing i really want to know is like what like it must be boom time for you know with all this lockdown stuff like everyone is miserable aren't they yeah it's it's funny i i um i went on the i was on the project the other night and i actually said which i soon have said it but it just came out i just they asked me for my top like five bits of advice or whatever it was it was advice And I said, look, I'm not an expert.

And I said, well, that's kind of why we got you on. But my point, which I didn't articulate well, because I was really nervous was, we've never been through this before. Like we've never ever been. So I hear all these like well-being gurus saying, here are the top five tips to get through a lot, to get through a pandemic. What, what experience are you going to this from? We've never been through this.

So. Well, no, if you had a 120 year old wellness guru, they would have been through the Spanish hood. True, true, in which case, in which case, I would love to listen to them. But I tell you what I, it has, it has been very busy. When this first happened, it's been a very huge 10 years in getting this program to where it's at and I was sort of, I was kind of, I was done to be honest. I was so exhausted and burned out and we'd worked out a strategy for me to sort of do a little bit less. And then this happened and all of a sudden I wasn't restricted by geography. Like it wasn't, I can do one talk a day.

It was I can come in here into the studio, put the camera on, I can do three or four a day. And then last year it was just insane. Like I think for mostly I did about three one-hour presentations a day just to different sporting clubs or schools and it was just, it was insane, you know, but I look back on them and I feel like a bit of a goose because I'm saying stuff like, you know, we'll get through this and next year we'll be stronger because we went through uncertainty and we went through discomfort but we'll be stronger this time next year. I don't think anyone's, I think everyone's stronger right now.

You know, I listen back to those things and go, what was I saying? And that's what makes me wary of people who claim to be experts of how you get through a, you know, a global pandemic from a mental health point of view. Obviously, there's the medical experts and they are experts and we've got to listen to them. But people who are trying to give advice on, you know, this is how you get through a lockdown. Well, we've no doubt it before. So I think all you can do is talk about what you're doing yourself, which helps and people can decide if that will help for them or not. And a lot of the stuff that I might talk about may not work for some people, but it might be really helpful for others, I reckon.

So there's not a one-size-fits-all solution, and I'm sure that most people don't want to go dropping $500 on an online course that will magically make them happy and bouncing off the walls. So what is some tangible things that people can try right now in the home to make their situation better? I love the way you've worded that. I really do. So the tangible things. Here's the biggest thing I've done, which has helped me.

And I say tangible, it may not be tangible, but I found a lot of pressure last, I was under a lot of pressure last year to be good, like to be feeling okay. I felt under a lot of pressure to be. Everyone's turning to me to what you do. And I'm like, you do this. But deep down, I'm like, mate, you're a fraud because you're battling at the moment. You'll find this just as hard as anyone else. But then I kind of realized that everyone's struggling and that's totally fine.

But then I still found it quite difficult, you know, the lack of certainty and all this stuff. I kept thinking about the stuff I wished I could do. And it wasn't until honestly about three weeks ago where I finally, and this is the thing that's helped me the most, I finally realize that the pandemic is out of my control. So I've just got to let it go. I've just got to stop worrying about it and accept that it is what it is. Like the power, we don't realize how powerful acceptance is as human beings. And if I have finally accepted that it is here and it's out of my control and I have no idea how long we're going to be in lockdown for and it's out of my control and the moment I and this is the thing I've people have said to me for ages oh you've got to

accept this got to accept that and I'm like yeah that's easy to say how do you actually do it I don't know how I finally actually did it I just was in the car and it just hit me that I'm worrying about something I can't control and because I'm never going to be able to control it that means my worry's never going to go away here have you stopped looking at case numbers and trying to you know dodge press conferences each day or you're still very much involved within the immediate cycle. Yes, but it doesn't, I mean, it doesn't have. And here's the amazing thing.

It hasn't, yeah, there's only three weeks. So, you know, by the time, in a week's time, maybe I'll be saying, I'm back to where I was. But for the last three weeks, I mean, Melbourne, where I live went through, we had a bad day on Saturday where it just the case number spiked and we realized we're going to miss for a long time. And my wife said to me when we're watching the news, she said, are you okay? And I said, amazingly, I'm totally fine.

Like, it hasn't, this has not impacted me at all because I've accepted. that it's out of my control. I do have to say, though, that I'm someone who hasn't lost his job. I haven't lost someone I love. No one I know is really impacted by the illness at the moment. So I think it is a bit easier. I understand it's easier for me to accept it, I guess,

than other people, but then some people. But that's the main thing that has helped me to drop. I just, I don't feel anxious about it. I don't feel, I feel I have moments of sadness definitely when I think about the world my kids are growing up in, but I, the second I realize I'm wearing something about something I can't control, I just let it go. And that's been really powerful. So that's one that's not overly tangible, I don't think. Yeah. But here are some tangible things that I know people are doing that really helps. One of the things that's happened with this, with COVID is that we don't,

one of the big parts of being well and being happy is optimism and hope. They're common characteristics of people who are happy, they're optimistic people. What's happened with this pandemic is we've had optimism and optimism and hope stripped from our lives. You know, we used to schedule little things in our lives like going to the pub for a beer at night with your friends, helps you get through a bit of a rough day or going to the movies on the weekend with a friend. It'll get you through the week looking forward to that or going to the footy or going

to live music, whatever it is. We schedule things to look forward to. It's all gone. Yeah. What I think we need to do is actually try and write down a list of of things that you are looking forward to you, that you know will definitely happen. And granted, they are nowhere near as exciting as they used to be. But I do think they are the things that we were meant to be excited about in the first

place. I'll give you an example for me. Right now in Melbourne, I'm looking forward to the weather improving. Like it's August, it's shit in Melbourne, it's cold and it's just, but we're about to reach spring and I love, I love the warm weather, I just love it and we're not far off the weather turning and with that I love the smells and the sounds of spring I always have I don't know why it's a nostalgic thing but I've written down I'm looking forward to spring that will definitely happen it will death spring will

definitely come around the weather will definitely get warmer I'm looking forward to that there are certain there are other things I've listed that will definitely happen I think too many of us are spending our time thinking about the stuff that actually can't happen right now too many of us are thinking I was meant to be doing this right now I was meant to be doing here this and and that that's a bit of a trap at the moment it's healthier to think about things you can do the thing that we have been doing at my house, because I've got two kids, is we make sure that our

weekends and our weekdays are very different. So there's a real shape of the thing. And one of the things, because we used to love going to the movies, especially on Saturday afternoons, right? And we obviously can't do that. So instead, what we do is we set up the couches and make popcorn and all that sort of stuff. And then my 10-year-old, even the other day.

designed these tickets to sit that we all had to have and we printed out the tickets and he insisted on not printing enough tickets and so he said, Dad, you're the forgerer, you've got to forge your ticket and try and get to him.

And then he was the ticket person and he was convinced by my forgery, he went, oh yeah. And he went, wasn't it amazing you got in? I was like, you did it! I really love that. But the other thing was that we always make sure that we walk all the way to the cinema. So we leave our house by our back door, walk around the block,

and then come in through the front door and go, oh, wow, we're at the cinema now. And it's such a simple and stupid thing to do in one way. But it makes it an occasion. Yeah, totally. It just makes it different or something. Yeah, totally. just turning on the TV. I love that.

But that's a very authentic and kind of, yeah, it's a very real moment, like to share with your family. I think that's great. And that's the kind of stuff, you know, you're writing down, what am I looking forward to? It's definitely going to happen. I'm definitely going to have movie day with my family on Saturday. That's going to happen.

So they're the kind of things I think we should be focusing on. And that comes back to gratitude. The other way to practice gratitude before you go to bed at night is to write down three things that went well for you during the day. And granted, they're not as exciting as they were a year ago, you know. I got up. Yeah, totally. It's stuff like, I don't know, I had a nice coffee this morning.

I mean, my brother said to me the other day, and he's someone who, he said it's taken way too long to learn gratitude, but he said, my son the other day realized, noticed the moon for the first time his life. He's just, he's one year old and one year old and he was saying moon and he was fascinated by it. And Josh said, that was a real, that was a real. real special moment. Like that was a that was and I realized I was so grateful for that moment. He said, I reckon if it wasn't for COVID, I probably wouldn't have really, I would have gone, yeah,

good stuff. We're about to go to the pub or wherever, he said, but I'm really focusing on, he said, I've really narrowed my vision and I'm just focusing on the stuff that's happening just around me. He said, the smell of my coffee this morning blew me away. He said it was unbelievable. And I thought, how lucky might have been having this coffee right now. So for many of us, it's perhaps an opportunity to learn a lesson that we probably should have learned a long time ago, which is we're surrounded by so many incredible things every day and we've got to pay attention to them. And what about connection with other people?

Yeah. Because it's such an isolating thing. And we get so much of our happiness from social moments. Yeah, totally. Well, I mean, this is, it's funny to say that. I was just thinking today to myself, there's a, where our studio is in Collingwood, where there's a sushi place and a cafe where I get my lunch and my coffee every single day.

And I've actually got to know the barista and the guy who makes a sushi quite well. Because for as far, most times when I turn up, but I think, well, this, apart from my family, this might be the only face-to-face conversation I have. So I'm not staying there in the queue on my phone, checking my email, saying, hi, good, you know, mate, how are you going? What's happening on my email or whatever? Like, I'm properly engaging in, I feel like any opportunity you've got to connect with someone, you've got to grab onto.

But here's the other thing I'd say, be selective at the moment. I think we know those people that are really positive and upbeat around the world, about the world, despite how hard it is. They're the ones you should be having your conversations with at the moment. I take on so often I take on the mood of the person I've just been speaking to. One of the, one of the bristas is so negative and he's so down about the world, which is fair enough. I think everyone is.

The other brist is like just so positive about everything. And when I speak to her, that's how I am kind of for the next couple of hours. That sort of has a bit of a flow-on effect. I was going to say it's infectious, but it's not the wrong word to use at the moment. But, yeah, I think, I mean, connection is what we're put on the earth to do, which is why essentially we're being challenged so much of the moment. That's what we're on the earth to do. The connection is, I think when you look at people's mental health,

it's so often the issue or the disconnection can be at the real, can be the source of unhappiness, but connection is the answer to joy. And that's why we're having a lot of problems right now because we're disconnected at a time when we know that connection is everything. So yeah, it's really hard. It's really, really hard. And what, I mean, a lot of my friends have found solace

in large quantities of alcohol. I mean, like it's sort of, it's one of those things where, you know, like it sort of, it does work. And then it doesn't work and it's horrible. And, but I think a lot of people are feeling very guilty about that, but also have sort of just recklessly thrown themselves into it. Yeah, well, what we know alcohol will do is it will, it will exaggerate the emotion that you are having at the time,

the mood you're having eventually. That's what it will do. So it may not for the first couple of beers or the first glasses, first couple of glasses of red wine, but then when you have a couple more, it'll exaggerate whatever you're feeling. So if you are feeling anxious about the world right now, it's going to exaggerate and blow that feeling up.

And then I know some people who made a moment was telling me that he, I was talking to him about that. And he said, yeah, I, he said, what happens is I feel really great after a couple of drinks. And then the anxiety picks up around the world. I get a bit panicky. And then I drink heaps. And then I'm just like, I'm just like, I'd pass out basically. And then it's just gone.

I said, what about the next morning though when you wake up? He said, oh, I'm a mess. I am a mess for the next. Like until the alcohol is out of my system, I'm a mess. I said, well, that's what I mean, mate. It's exaggerating your mood the next day. Like, you're a lot more down about the world the next day while the alcohol is in your system. So I totally understand people turning to alcohol because it's just a little bit of an escape.

And but I think the second you catch yourself saying to feel a little bit, like bring up a negative emotion, I think you need to abort mission pretty quickly. Easier said than done. Not much easier said than done. So, but I mean, for me personally, it hasn't happened to me at all. And I love having a beer as much as anyone, but it hasn't happened to me at all because my daughter wakes up at 4.45 every single morning. And there's nothing worse than a hangover when you're up 445 in the morning changing

and nappy. So I just like, because of, you're a lucky man. So because of that, I just, I know the pain the next day is there's no way it's going to be equate to being worth it. So I've been lucky in that way. But yeah, I think we all know it's long term. It's not helpful. But I do think we need to forgive ourselves for being imperfect

at this very imperfect time in the world. Okay, Hugh, thank you so much for coming on. But before you go, do you have any last minute tips for people or any courses that aren't total nonsense or maybe books that people could read in their journey going forward to make sure that they're not completely in the dump for the rest of lockdown? So I think the most important thing is to talk is to talk about what you're feeling.

I think a lot of people are, the tide might be changing, but I think people are just saying to surrender now. But for a long time, I think people were saying, oh, all right, I'm getting through this. I'll be fine. This is tough, but we'll be right. But I think deep down, a lot of us

were sort of crumbling under the pressure and the weight of this. Talking to letting people in, letting people know how you're going is really important. So whether that's a loved one and whether that's someone you know will be there for you when you're battling, but it might be you need professional.

help and Charles you mentioned a therapist before there's there's no one better than a good counselor or a good psychologist or good social worker or good therapist to help you work through all this stuff the reason I'm reluctant to say at the moment is I just know that there's huge waiting list at the moment like there's just like it's it's like a nightclub policy one in one out and no one's leaving the nightclub at the moment so it's so I'm worried that but here's just some other resources you might want to, I think if you've never tried, we were just mentioning meditation before, you never tried meditation, it might be a good time to get stuck into a course. There's a really good one by Dr. Sam Harris, the neuroscientist at the moment called

Waking Up. Is it waking up? Yeah, waking up with Sam Harris. It costs $130 and so you think that's a very expensive app. Think of it like a course, not an app. It talks you through. I mean, what practicing meditation does is it silences your ego and your ego is the our egos want us to be in control of everything and want us to have the answers to everything and so it's it's quite a useful thing to to quiet your ego at a time like this so I'd recommend that up if you're into podcasts um well there's the imperfects podcast myself and right which is a good one but um I'll tell you another good one is the Chaser report podcast I heard great yeah I mean they're probably my two

favourite, so that's probably all you need to worry about. As far as books are concerned, I have just reread a couple of books, which I really love, both by Brenno Brown. The Gift of Imperfection is one of them. The gift of imperfection is great at a time, like, it's just wonderful book for a time like this because it, it's all about embracing your imperfections and your struggles and your anxieties and your insecurities. I think for a lot of us, this has brought up all our insecurities and all this kind of stuff. And understanding that it's good for you to embrace your struggle and to own your story, all that kind of stuff, I think is very good at a time like that.

So in fact, rather than giving you all the books, I'd probably say just start with the gift of imperfection. It's been around for a while, but it's a beauty. I'd strongly recommend that. On our website, we've got four parents on our website, theresilienceproject.com. that are used. It's a free resource. It's just called TRP at home. And there are literally thousands of resources, ideas, activities for you to do by yourself, but also do with your kids to help them practice gratitude, empathy, mindfulness at home. We have a 15-minute lesson from one of our staff members who used to be an assistant principal. When you see him in action,

you will question how on earth he ended up being an assistant principal. But he does 15 minutes. It's called Gem TV and he goes live every day and does a TV show for kids. in primary schools to help them practice this stuff and give the parents a bit of time out away from the kids and homeschooling. So TRP at home, the Resilions Project, might be a helpful resource as well. Cool.

Well, thank you so much you for coming on the program. It's been fascinating to get an insight into your perspective and ways that people can actually, actionably make change right now. I really appreciate that. Thanks for having me. And yeah, I'm glad you to ask me for any advice on how to make Zoom work properly.

I'm not you, man. Thanks, Hugh. Pleasure, guys. Thanks. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in again. Sorry about my late night announcing. We'll be back with a normal episode on Monday with Dom and Charles back in the hot seat. Thank you so much for listening. Our gear is provided by road microphones, and we are part of the ACAST creator network.

See you next week.