The Chaser Report - EXTRA: Why is misinformation so popular now? | Cam Wilson

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

Conspiracy theories have always done the rounds, but it's unusual for them to be aired on the floor of federal parliament, and more unusual still for it to come from government members. Crikey's Webcam columnist talks us through why anti-vaxxers and QAnon types are finding so many followers these days. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Chaser Report, news you can't trust. Charles, another special extra edition of The Chaser Report. We've been so busy recording interviews that we couldn't fit into the whole week. Yeah, well, I like to think this is not excess, but a special sort of longer form Saturday so that you can go for a walk and go for a jog, maybe just lays about at home. Who knows? Who knows?

Whatever you want to do. But Cameron Wilson is an amazing journal to follow on Twitter. I've been doing so for a few years and he always comes up with fascinating stuff. He's particularly expert in the world of misinformation and some of the bizarre corners of the web that are going on, some of the Q&On type stuff, anti-vaxes, all that gear. He writes for crikey where he's got a column called WebCAM. And we've got a long chat with him coming up. Yep, it's fascinating.

We've been talking a lot about misinformation on the podcast recently, all the loopy conspiracy theories that some of our most senior politicians seem to be involved with. Cameron Wilson of Crikey covers all this stuff pretty much 24-7 on Twitter. He's a columnist for them as well. He's a columnist called WebCAM. And given that Twitter's just announced a plan to allow its users to flag misinformation, his account's going to be even busier than ever, I suspect. He joins us now.

Hey, how you going? Yeah, good. This is a big deal. Is Twitter finally going to do the right thing and cut down all the rubbish that's doing the rounds? Oh, we'll see. You know, I'm always hesitant to give them too much credit for something they've had on their hands for quite a while. But the scheme, I understand, is not that they're actually doing anything with these reports yet. They're saying people can flag tweets as misleading or misinformation.

They're just, at the moment, they are studying it in a month trial in Australia and a few other places. And from there, they'll kind of decide to see what they'll do next. So it's actually going to be nothing It's going to be like when you report a tweet at the moment And then you never hear about it ever again Yeah, that's what it's going to be Yeah, right, okay Exactly, in a few days you'll get a notification saying

Oh, we've looked at it and we found that it's actually fine We found that this racist grand That's a direct quote from Munkf is completely fine And meets community standards Well, it is technically true So So, you know, it is just a trial at the moment And, you know, to give Twitter credit, I think they probably out of all of the big social media platforms, tech platforms, you know, they have a bit more of an interesting and outside of the box approach. And Jack Dorsey, their, you know, co-founder and I think now, again, CEO, he's always up for a kind of innovative or interesting solution to something. And so I'm not going to say that we can't get anything interesting out of this. And, you know, there's plenty of stuff that you can find out just about by seeing how.

people are sharing misinformation, you know, where it's, how it's spreading. But I'm not exactly holding my breath that this will be the feature that once and for all solves misinformation on the internet. I love that he's getting the end users to do the work, though, rather than paying people. Can you give us a sense of the scale of the problem? I mean, there's a lot of examples. But for those who don't use social media, what's some of the most bizarre stuff you've seen trawling the social media feeds?

Oh, God, that's almost an impossible question to answer because... We've set aside an hour. Yeah. I mean, look, it really does range from all things, from, you know, there are the more garden variety, you know, misinformation and conspiracy theories. I've spent a lot of time looking at anti-vaxes, at, you know, even things like climate change denialism. Like, that is, you know, there's a lot of misinformation out there that you might, you know, that might be acceptable in the pages of the Oz, but also, you know, when you look at it,

you're actually like, no, this is bullshit. But you do get some kind of wacky stuff. stuff out there as well. Actually, speaking of anti-vaxxas, I did recently see something that at the moment they are, you know, they're trying to paint themselves as these kind of, you know, like freedom fighters and that they're soon to be, you know, discriminated against with things like proposals for vaccine passports. And some of them are now even saying that in the future, anti-vaxxer sperm will be a highly

valuable commodity that people would be trying to get their hands on and that people should get in on the ground floor now. Are these optimistic in cells, do you think? I don't know if they're in cells. In fact, if I had to say, look, if I had to generalize broadly, I'd say the anti-vaccer movement probably has, you know, because of its gender, it's got more of a gender balance than some other conspiracy theorists. And it sometimes, I think it's got maybe a tinge that's a little bit more lovey-dovey.

So I'm not sure that all anti-vaxas are like in cells who can't find some. want to hook up with. No, I just think it's because they think, you know, they're painting themselves as these kind of, you know, there will be the survivors and the dystopia after vaccines turn us all into mutants. And that's why they're saying we'll be after their sperm. And we sort of laugh at this stuff, but it does have real world consequences, doesn't it? I mean, before he got banned on Facebook, I think Craig Kelly was the most influential Australian politician on Facebook. Oh, he was so present.

He sent to spend the entire day posting loopy theories. Just the amount of time he wants to spend on Facebook versus any other part of his paid job. Yeah, no, no, he was massive on there. Look, it's always kind of hard to say, but, you know, there's obviously a lot of misinformation out there. And, you know, when I think it really is problematic is when you've got people who are in these positions of power, like Craig Kelly, who are using the Facebook.

that they, you know, they have a title, they're a member of parliament, they've got the time to post all this bullshit. And people, you know, I mean, it might sound kind of funny now when you think about it, but people look up to people like Craig Kelly. And so when they see him out there, you know, trying to say that he's fighting for the right to not have a vaccine or to not have a segregation or a vaccine apartheid or something, that can, you know, it can lead people astray. And when I think about things like antivaxes, I think, you know, there are a lot of people out there who are, you know, strongly, you know, pro-vax. There's a lot of people out there who are strongly anti-vax. But there's also a lot of people who are in the middle. And, you know, when they hear things about vaccines, like, you know, that they're new, which of course is going to make people a little bit worried, even just the fact that you're getting a, you know, you're getting injected with something, a syringe. People don't like needles. Or, you know, when they're kind of in the middle, when you give them something that kind of gives them, them, I guess a reason to kind of move closer to being, well, maybe I don't want to get the vaccine. That's when things can kind of have an influence. And so that's why it matters when

someone like Craig Kelly is out there sharing the stuff. It's not because, you know, someone's going to read it and automatically become an anti-vaxxer, but it might just move them a little bit down that path to saying, well, I don't really want to get it for what is probably a really stupid reason. And so therefore does that mean that sort of push them off these major platforms and, you know, because I think Craig Kelly has set up on telegram, so has Pete Evans now. Like, you know, they use these sort of encrypted group chat services where they're hardcore fans go. Are you arguing basically that that is a good outcome because even though they sort of live on on the fringes, they don't have the opportunity

to then, you know, get the casual browser whipped up? Or, I mean, because you're in a lot of these telegram group chats, aren't you? Yes, unfortunately. Yeah. How do you even get into them? Like, how do you... It's really, it's not that hard. And just to answer your first question about, is it good when you kick people off these major platforms?

I think the answer is broadly, yes, but it is a bit nuanced. Like, you know, I was early on one of the people saying, hey, look, like Pete Evans is sharing, you know, Q and on stuff or whatever. And this is bad because, you know, maybe people think he's just a celebrity chef, whatever. He has a massive audience. And, you know, when you have access to people, even if you're only convincing a small part of them, you are kind of, you have that chance to change minds. Maybe they trust them for whatever reason and lead them down a path where they shouldn't be going. So the sooner you can kind of cut off their access to their audience when they are sharing. stuff. That is just bullshit. It's better. It does get a little bit more nuanced because there is a bit

of research that suggests that, you know, when people get pushed to the fringes, they kind of, I guess, end up in a kind of like, you know, a morass of all these kind of conspiracy groups who kind of cross-pollinate each other. They get the full strength, uh, crazy juice. Exactly. You know, when Pete Evans gets shoved off to telegram, you know, people who said, oh, you know, I really like Pete and, you know, I thought it was unfair. They got kicked off Facebook. You know, they got a telegram then, and then maybe they get brought into some of the other groups as well.

So I think it is, it's nuance. But, I mean, that's kind of like, well, that's actually a problem because often these platforms didn't take action earlier. And so, you know, if Facebook had, maybe Pete Evans is a good example, but for any of the groups who are anti-vaxor groups who kind of built an audience on Facebook and then get shunted off, well, it's not great that now people are going over to the

platforms. But the problem in the first place was because places like Facebook, like YouTube, let them build in the first place. I mean, it's not exactly hard to get into the telegram groups. At one point, I joined the anti-lockdown protest telegram group and then realized that I had my real name set up in my telegram and had to quickly exit. But I mean, how dangerous you think the stuff is? Is it going to get to the point where it really, you know, threatens that democracy the way that, say the march on Washington, D.C. in January, caused real problems. and led to people to die.

Did you see this getting kind of genuinely real and impactful at some point? Yeah, it's always really tough to answer that. I mean, look, yes, there is always a possibility. And particularly with, you know, these groups, like, you know, like I'm in a lot of these telegram groups as well. And like you said, Dom, they're like, they are very open to people because at the end of the day, they all want to be able to bring people like into the fold. They want to be able to convince people.

So, you know, most of the time, they're open. open. They're welcoming people with open arms trying to build their coalition. So it's often not quite hard to get into it. And, you know, Telegram, all you're going to do is just download the app and then you can kind of, if you get any link, you know, someone links you on Twitter or Facebook, you go in there. And then, you know, in all of these groups, they're constantly forwarding from other groups so you can see, like, they all link together and it's easy to join them very quickly. And I think, like, you know, knowing that these groups will, they can still have, you know, tens of thousands of people

in Australia. That's kind of the sizes you see these conspiracy groups on telegram in Australia. Oh, tens of thousands? Oh, yeah, yeah, total. Like, like, there are plenty of groups that have tens of thousands of people in them. And, um, Jesus. I mean, look,

I always try and say like, you know, these conspiracy theorists from, you know, maybe the soft anti-vaxxas to the full-on like, you know, even like race war people who definitely exist. Um, you know, they are very, very small part of the population. So, you know, don't freak out because we see in the news that these people exist and we do see a bit of coverage of them. But just because they are a small

proportion of the population doesn't mean that there's quite a lot of them across Australia, especially when they're kind of like centralising groups. And all it takes is, you know, someone in those groups who takes it a little bit further. And I think like, you know, a lot of people in these groups are kind of like, you'd say like lopping, like they're pretending, they talk a big game, even in the ones that are quite violent and racist and awful. But it does only take one person who doesn't realize that the rest of them are just talking a big game to actually do something. And so that's kind of why it's worth being always aware of that.

How many people do you think in these groups are just massive smart asses and have just joined in and started sarcastic cats? I mean, I had a pro-Trump Twitter account that got suspended a couple of times. and I really enjoyed just writing things. Every tweet was just self-evidently ridiculous and illogical, and people just engage with it. I mean, I like to think that the actual people who believe this stuff is smaller than the whole.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's definitely some people who are just, like, they're just shit posting in there, that's for sure. I saw one today. I'm signing up. I'm going in and want to see what it's about or sabotage it or see if they can even roll people up for sure. But, I mean, look, I always try and be.

be empathetic about these people as well, which is, you know, over the last, what, 18, 19 months since the pandemic started, a lot of people have been cut off from their family and friends. They've lost their jobs or part of their income and just lost on a lot of enjoyable reasons to live, essentially. And, you know, it only takes a small portion of them to kind of turn to something like this. And they're vulnerable to this because any kind of conspiracy theory ultimately kind of relies on this idea that I'm going to tell you the truth and it's often that there's someone evil who's acting in a way that is making your life harder. I'm making this very complex event, you know, a pandemic that's constantly evolving. We don't understand the

science. I'm making it into something very simple. It's the government that's doing this or whatever. That's how like, you know, a lot of people can get sucked into this. And I think that's kind of also why we just, you know, while most of them won't actually end up doing anything, like they're not going to take any real world action. We should also be thinking, well, it's probably not great that increasing numbers of people are being drawn into these causes that are saying that the problems are, you know, simple and they're misleading people, ultimately. They're getting them to be angry and upset about things that aren't real. That's ultimately only going to make them more disengaged and angry, I think, in the long run. Do you think it'll be a viable cam for

us to start our own telegram server and right-wing conspiracy theory movement as a means of funding the chaser? Oh, absolutely. There is a lot of money in that if you want to. And look, I've often thought about that. I was like, do you know, I really missed the boat on my media career. I should have kind of tacked hard to the right, maybe, you know, dabbling in kind of conspiracy, you know, just always walking the line a little bit, not ever, you know, explicitly saying it, but, you know, giving people enough bait so that they know.

Because you can get so much money out of that. You can sell merch. You can, you know, crowd fund for legal challenges, which never actually work. You can do anything. Oh, yeah. And they've always got money here. Exactly, and that's the thing. And then eventually you kind of get brought on to Sky.

And I think that makes you kind of News Corp royalty. Is there any one conspiracy theory that you actually go, actually maybe that it money is true? I don't know. I think, you know. Because can I nominate my one? Yeah, I would have to hear it. Well, I actually don't think it's true.

But I did go down a rabbit hole the other night. And I can understand what people. people get into it, is the Wuhan-ladle-out conspiracy. It is fascinating. And the more you go down and you go into these chat rooms, right, and then suddenly people start, you know, supplying all these details about satellite images, show a car park was parked here. And then they become really elaborate.

And you just go, this is sort of like a spy drum. It's like reading a good novel where you're just piecing it all together. Except that we all die in the end rather than getting saved. Yeah, other than that. Yeah, and because you know what the whole Lab League thing is, is that it was America who did it. Fauci. It was America.

Yes, that's right. Who gave him to the Chinese to make them look bad. Charles, his audio's just given out. I think the CIA cut off his line. Yeah, no, I, look, I'm going to, I mean, there is one conspiracy theory that I believe in, which is the Blue Mountains Panther. But on what Charles said, I mean, like, I know you're joking around, but, you know, what you kind of said is the fact that it's like a novel that it helps explain the world I think is really important to these conspiracy theories because what they do is they, one, like I said before, kind of, you know, they give a simple narrative to what's actually happening so you can understand it because the world and all this stuff is like complicated and changing.

And the second thing is conspiracy theories make you feel important. important because you are the one who's figured it out. You can see the truth. And, you know, in many of them, you can be the one who saves the world if you do the right thing. If you, you know, cite the right part of the Magna Carta or whatever. I love that. Yeah, you turn up the sovereign citizens and you say the Magna Carta says, you've got to let me walk through this barrier between the two states and the cops go, no. Yeah, exactly. And like, for those, like, that's why people go to these things. And I think, like, we should all understand. that that's something that we can definitely sympathize with.

I'm not saying that people, you know, it's, it's defensible to be, you know, full on Q and on. But I think you can be like, why, I understand how you get into that. They're not just evil people. They're just, um, they're just been misled. I've been vaccinated against conspiracy theories, Cam, um, in a completely 100% effective way. Oh, yeah.

I follow Mark Latham on Twitter. And whenever he says anything, I just don't believe it. It's really, it's really effective. That's so, I recommend it. I'll have to follow him. Cam, it's been fascinating. I look forward to reporting all of your tweets as misinformation, particularly the one you posted a few days ago of Scott Morrison as a lady with long hair.

If you don't follow Cam, go and follow at Cameron Wilson on Twitter. It's a fascinating ride. Thank you for talking us through this terrifying new world in such a sensible and sympathetic way. Thanks, guys. There you go, our second extra episode for the past two days with Cameron Wilson of Crikey. Don't forget to follow him at Cameron Wilson on Twitter. Twitter, and we're back with a regular episode first thing on Monday. Yeah, see ya.