The Chaser Report - Graced by Grace Tame | BEST OF 2022

Episode Date: January 26, 2023

Before returning to the original recipe Chaser Report next week, please enjoy the time we talked to GRACE TAME! Also wish Dom a happy birthday, he's a good lad and deserves the love. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Chaser Report is recorded on Gadigal Land. Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is the Chaser Report. Hello and welcome to the Chaser Report's final best of 2022 series. I'm Lachlan Hodson and joining you shortly will be Charles Firth and Dominic Knight, joined by our final historical guest of this little series. Drum roll please. Yes, it's Grace Tame. you've probably already looked at the episode's name so you know that, so it's not really a big

surprise. But yeah, we're looking back at that time that we had been graced by the grace of Grace Tame. Domichael's got to talk to her about everything from her thoughts on the 2022 election to comedy. And honestly, it's just a really enjoyable listen to here. Grace, who usually talks about the serious topics that we all know her for talking about to something like comedy. And honestly, if you want to hear more of her on such topics, she's on irrational fear all the time. And she's actually going to be a part of the irrational fear too many guests lineup at the Melbourne Comedy Festival this year. Plug for Dan Elych. You're welcome, Dan. But for now, you can enjoy her in The Chaser Report. So please enjoy this episode. In the meantime,

I think it's currently the 27th of January. So you can do two things, which is one, Wish Dom Night, a happy birthday. His birthday was the 26th of January, and that is the only thing that anyone should celebrate on that day. The other thing you can do is listen to, I'm sorry to bring this up again, but listen to hottest 100. The hottest 200 starts today, but the hottest 100 starts tomorrow, which is Saturday the 29th. And look, if you listen to Triple J, National Broadcast Radio, just hear a special song by none other than Scott Morrison. I can't promise anything. I honestly can't. So there's actually a fair chance that it's not in the countdown. But you should listen anyway because you should support the national

broadcaster and support young people hosting radio. Because we're good. Yeah, sorry, no, we're really good and consistent and understand the importance of good radio timing. where was I? Something about Grace Tame. No, enjoy today's episode of The Chaser Report. I've been Loughlin. Charles and Tom will be with you soon. Enjoy. So last year, we were very, very honored to have the Australian of the Year, Grace Tame, on our podcast. Surprisingly, Charles, she's agreed to come back and talk to us during the campaign. Yes, no idea why. She's hit an awful lot during the campaign and just about all of its main headlines. So let's get some more headlines happening with Grace Tame. Welcome to the podcast, Grace.

Oh, look, it's always a pleasure chatting to you, Legends. Thank you for having me. So Scott Morrison described himself as a bulldozer this morning. I think Australians know I'm a bit of a bulldozer. Does that tell you with your experience at all, Grace? A bulldozer. A bulldozer. Oh, my gosh.

Whatever, at this point. But how have you found this campaign? I mean, you were such a big part of the national conversation when you were Australian of the year. You're not obliged to do this anymore, but you still, every move gets reported and people want to know what you think, Grace. I don't know. That's up to the people to decide, I suppose, you know, I often say, you know, before I say anything, you often preface my words with, you know, no one is obliged to, to listen to what

I have to say. That's really the whole point. I'm just here to present different, different ideas and mainly ask or invite people, you know, not certainly not demand or force, invite people to interrogate the sources from which they're getting their information, you know, the lens that they are looking at a lot of the information that's being presented to them through. Because, you know, when we look at the landscape of our national media at the moment, you know, not all media, of course, you know, people like you guys, you know, thankfully there's there's a, there's a small portion at least that's retaining some independence. But when we look at the grand landscape of our national media, we've got, you know, 59% of the readership share of print media, you know,

metropolitan and nationally is Murdoch, and then you got next after that, 23% is nine. And Peter Costello, who was a former liberal treasurer in Howard's time, is, you know, it's 23%. Like, it's right-leaning. And we're trying to say that there's bias. It's just not true. That's 82% right there. Well, actually, we calculate, I added it all up, because if you include seven and ten, 97% of the commercial news media is this right-leaning sort of thing.

It's extraordinary. Like the Guardian, if you include The Guardian and the Saturday paper is not right-leaning, they make up essentially 3% of the commercial news media, not including the ABC, of course. Yeah. Which is neutral. Yes. Yeah, it's interesting watching it all play out because I guess I'm inspired by seeing

how you use your voice still to this day, because a couple of days ago you had some thoughts on Anthony Albanyese going on the Alan Jones show, which I think has fewer viewers than this conversation now has listeners. You were disappointed by that, weren't you? Of course I was disappointed by that. I mean, Alan Jones even said in his own book, he talked about the letters that he wrote to his underage students, which constitutes grooming. And, you know, Anthony Albanese is a powerful man and he has choices, you know, of who he aligns himself with.

And it was interesting because a lot of the people who were sort of and trying to sort of reason with me and I understand that they're well-intentioned, we're a part of a demographic who haven't been the victims of child sexual abuse, who haven't experienced what's like to be victimized by a person who has a lot of power and knowledge over you. and they're saying, oh, it's just, you know, it's unity, it's about our forgiveness and all those sorts of things. And I was like, I understand the concept of forgiveness is actually, in many ways, part of the mechanism that drives and perpetuates abuse. It's something that shields perpetrators because they just actually weaponize those sorts of institutions that are actually just man-made constructs to hide beneath. And people like Alan Jones, they don't need powerful white man to legitimize him. They don't need to be platformed. They don't need to be given

the seal of approval, you know, they don't need handshakes, they don't need photographs on Twitter to boost their cause at all. And it has a really disempowering effect on survivors who see that. Like, what does it take for our message to be heard for these people to actually incur some kind of consequence? It just, we need circuit breaker moments in society for actually these cultures to stop. I often find during election campaigns, there's this notion that you can't possibly criticize the Labor Party because you can't publicly do that because what if you stuff it all up and suddenly everyone votes for the Libs because you said something critical about the Labor Party.

Oh, rubbish. I mean, like I'm not, again, this is the whole thing. People going, oh, you know, you're a Labor hack. No, I'm actually like, it's not about party politics and it's very clear. You know, we're not even talking about two people who are even remotely similar. if we're looking at Anthony and Scott, we're talking about one person who's a decent human being and we're talking about an egocentric ideologue

who is just totally in it for himself. We're not even talking about a good or like a bad politician. We're talking about somebody who has deliberately abandoned the people or his own gain and is prepared to sacrifice any group for the sake of politics. I mean, I made a list this morning on Twitter and, like, I'd have to pull out my phone, but the list is huge throughout his tenure as Prime Minister for the sake of politics. I mean, it just goes on and on and on.

Does he not forget that, like, people, like, real people have memories and they, like, on paper, like for his campaigning purposes, it might be tactical and work strategically in the moment, but, like, we have real lives and, you know, jobs and families and our families remember too. Well, his colleagues remember. This has been one of the strange things about the campaign. So many of his colleagues have had critical things to say. And again, it's not about party politics.

You know, I could care less. I actually have, you know, friends who are in the Liberal Party. And, you know, the New South Wales Treasurer came out. And rightly so. He said there's no place for bigotry in the modern Liberal Party today. And he's right. And I support that. You know, it's, again, it's not about being liberal.

It's not about any of that. It's about human decency and authenticity and all those other values. And the principle of truth, too, you know, if we want to look at that, number one. I mean, this is a man who just, there are all these videos too and photographs and quotes that you can, you know, put side by side where he says one thing and then he says another, you know, and it could be like on the same day too. And you're just like, that is just, that is textbook narcissism. But isn't that why Scott Morrison wants you to listen to.

Catherine Deves and focus on sort of transgender scare campaign that they've tried to sort of ignite in this election because, you know, part of this campaign is the great forgetting project. Like, he can't run on, well, you remember what I've done for the last three years. He has to have something shiny and new for everyone to look at and go, hey, look over here, be scared of these people, be scared of these people. It is incredibly desperate. It's a distraction, it's a distraction technique, first of all. because he's got really nothing else.

You know, he doesn't want to talk. It doesn't want to really talk about climate change because there's nothing there. There's a plan. And, you know, there's, again, there's really, really nothing much else to go on. And, you know, as Ronnie Salt, I don't know if you're familiar with her Twitter,

she's been pointing out for a while. It's not just about Waringa. And like you said, it's about appealing to the nation and dog whistling to certain ideologies that go beyond her electorate. It has a much grander design, and it's being, It is. It's being, it's, it's his priority now that's running directly out of his office.

Again, as Ronnie Salt has been pointing out for quite a while. And the media are a part of this mechanism. And as he said, it's, I mean, pretty much 97%. And they're all complicit in it and using this dubious language that's softening it. They're saying that she's just controversial. No, she's not. She's a flat out liar. She's a lawyer. She knows, you know, that mutilation is not something that can happen to. transgender children because children cannot get the operation to have gender affirming surgery because it's something you can only get when you're 18. She knows all of these things. And yet, again, the media are all complicit in softening this narrative again. And for the average reader who does not use their critical thinking, who just sees,

and again, this is not the fault of the average reader. it is just, you know, it's not fair to expect people to just walk past, you know, the shop front and see, you know, the front page, you know, and go, oh, well, I must examine this. They just see the headlines that go, oh, poor Catherine, you know, she's in tears. She just wants to defend her right to say what she wants. We, the average person sympathizes with that, with that and the imagery that they use. it's all very clever, like it's so insidious, this subliminal messaging, and it is all emanating from his office. It rots from the top. It is so masterful.

And I guess it's based around a perception, a strategy of the kind of things that would make people reelect the government, right, if this is all part of a big master plan. He is a marketing man. He was before he was prime minister, and that is what he is holding on to. Given your experience of traveling around the country, talking to a lot of people and being a very prominent advocate. Do you believe he's right that that argument is going to help him? Or have you seen a different side of Australia in your interaction with ordinary Australians?

I am yet to encounter anybody who isn't incensed by this because, you know, it is really just the lowest of the low. I mean, I mean, I don't know. I'm not a politician and I never want, I never want to step into an environment where I become so entrapped in a hive mind wherein I become in any way detached from realities because it's so important to be able to admit fault. And I think that that's the downfall with people who believe

that they are entitled to take advantage of and persecute people they perceive to be beneath them. That is where they go wrong. You see, they don't actually think, about they don't they can't see anything from anybody else's point of view no empathy no empathy because their inauthenticity is their is their downfall that's so sort of entrap in their own ideology that then unable to accept responsibility and accountability ding ding ding um cough I don't know who you're talking about

But do you think part of it is that actually this will knock off a whole lot of Scott Morrison's competitors in the Liberal Party. If you take a macro-ish, you know, thing like this, this is going to destroy a whole lot of wet-libs chances at the election. And, yeah, it seems absurd to us that he would play a game where it's like, I'll get rid of. But actually, you sort of go. If his long-term plan is to sort of have type of party where it hates on and tells lies about transgender people and whips up culture war campaigns out of nothing, then he's going about it the right way because it's going to lead to a whole lot of seats lost of people who, you know, who believe in telling the truth and being fair within his party.

Who will be able to challenge him after this election, even if he's not in, prime minister he'll be the head of a liberal party that it looks far more like Catherine dives than before the election it's an incredibly selfish oh thing to do and if that's what he wants his legacy to be then again then that's an unmasking moment although i mean he asked in my in my opinion he unmasked himself to be that a long time ago it's disturbing but true that there are people who believe that they are entitled to persecute people who they perceive to be beneath them. I just wanted to ask about your campaign,

because when we spoke to you last time, you were talking about trying to get the nation's laws on grooming and coercive control changed and in harmony with each other. And this is the time to talk about policy. This is the time when all good ideas to make Australia better are welcomed, and we've heard heaps of all kinds of people. How is your campaign going after more than a year of talking about this cause? Indeed. Well, it's funny because the media is a strange beast. It's going really well. So the Harmony

campaign is sort of our longer term umbrella campaign because you kind of can't bite off more than you can chew as you know, creating change and especially legal reform is a marathon, not a sprint. And one can only run one step at a time. You can't run 4Ks at once. Unless you are inspected gadget and I am not. I certainly can't. You know, I'm a Luddite and I can barely operate my own phone. So the first of the individual campaigns is called Stop Gaslighting Survivors. And the purpose of that campaign is to remove the word relationship from the crime of persistent child sexual abuse. So in four jurisdictions out of the eight that govern the crime of persistent child sexual abuse

of a child or young person under special care, the wording is, you know, slightly different from state to state, but essentially it means the same thing. It's still described as maintaining a sexual relationship with a young person. And that's not just wrong. It's also something that are perpetrators of child sexual abuse offences often weaponise to spin the narrative. It sounds creepy. The word sounds creepy in that context, of course. Even actually on Sunday during the leaders debate online, there was a commercial where they characterised a case of abuse of a minor where the child was groomed as a relationship. It's something that's still, you know, it's a really complex thing because often we are talking

about children who are groomed to express what they think in their child mind is affection and love or adult abusers who know exactly what they're doing because they're often, you know, well-practiced offenders. You know, it's talked about repeatedly in academia, in psychiatric medicine, this mechanism of shame that stays with boys and girls, you know, boys speak about the shame they feel from getting erections in, you know, when they were being abused by their abusers. You know, girls talk about expressing, you know, love saying, I loved you. or begging for sex from their abusers.

That's certainly something that I, you know, I struggled with because I'd been abused previously, not only as a six-year-old, but I'd been abused by primary caregivers of mine who I spent a long time with. And it's something that's not discussed about very often when we talk about the trauma responses of not only people, but of animals in the animal kingdom,

is the fawn response out of the fore. So there's the flight, fright and freeze, which we hear about really often. But then there's the fawn response, which is really common in children who've been neglected or abused by caregivers, which is characterized by the suppression of needs and identity and the sort of, you know, people pleasing, the want to impress the person who's supposed to be providing you with love, but is, you know, cold or mistreating you. And so you sort of, you know, like you do anything to get affection that you're not being provided with. Your needs are not being met. So you end up, in some cases, sort of parenting

them or performing for them. And because I was also autistic as well, I mimicked and masked and masked a lot of my own identity anyway. It's really complicated, obviously. There's a lot to take in there. Yeah, no, I didn't know any of the theory behind that. It's fascinating. But just in terms of the places to focus on, where do we need to change next? Yeah. Well, hopefully by getting this word of relationship out of this offense, that's another piece of narrative manipulation that we can take away from perpetrators. Because it's still something that I see all the time. I mean, I'm no stranger to going online and seeing the hatred I get, you know, whether it be from strangers or bots or whatever. We need to keep getting this

message across, more so because people still don't understand that the power, imbalance between victims of child sexual abuse is not one that is just distilled to an individual level, which is all the more reason we need to fight this. There is a huge overlap between perpetrators and people who are in positions of power, but also we've got to remember that people who perpetrate these crimes often operate in rings. They don't work alone. One of the members on the advisory board of our foundation is a brilliant academic by the name of Michael Sauter. He's a professor at the University of New South Wales. Now, he wrote his thesis, his PhD thesis on escaping pedophile rings. He's been working in this sector for about

15 years. And he's a six foot tall man, really, like, you wouldn't want to mess with Michael on a number of fronts. You wouldn't want to argue with him because he's, you know, he's sharp as attack, but also physically, you know, just you wouldn't. But just because he started doing research in this field and, you know, poking the bear as the phrase goes, he came home one day and found, and he's written about this. So, you know, I know that I have permission to say this because I've asked to him if I can share this information, you know, for the purposes of making this point that I'm about to make. You know, he came home one day and he found animal organs and blood in his bed. Because, you know, this subculture of humans, again, who feel entitled

to abuse people who they think are beneath them, you know, vulnerable people, they will go to any lengths to attempt to silence those trying to expose them. And I have been on the end of this physical, like violent harassment myself. You know, when I first showed my face on television, you know, I had my car crashed into by a white,

2000 model Toyota Corolla and then like two or three weeks later I saw the same model of car 200 metres in the distance and I thought that was quite odd its hazards were on and then I gave it a wide clearance and then all of a sudden it was up this was like 10pm at night it was right up

my backside and I sped up to give it some room I wasn't speeding or anything like that before that and then it was chasing me we were going like 90 kilometres an hour and then all of a sudden like it had chased me all the way home and I was too shocked to get out of the car and a thug got out and bashed on the window and called me a fucking whore. Oh my God.

You know, these are, these are, these guys don't mess around, you know. Well, I'm able to understand this now, Grace, because five weeks ago I got my second daughter. So like Scott Morrison, I'm suddenly able to understand that these things are bad. Oh, yes. You can understand, like you can understand women as objects. relative to you. Well, I got my wife to explain it to me.

But in all sincerity, and how is this not the top priority? That's what's really frustrating. See, see Charles like, oh, you're not Charles, your job. Charles has sons. Charles has no idea. Yeah, I actually don't understand. I was going to say, I was about to call you Dom and then I was like,

why does you, why does Charles have two, what, why do you have a monopoly? Why do you have a media monopoly? We're white middle-aged guys. We're indistinguishable. Don't worry about it. You are all the one, you know, you are the monolith of white man. Sadly true. You are the manalist.

So, yeah, I was saying this yesterday. I spoke to the, I spoke to the Batuta guys. And I was saying how, you know, Max and I worked our little butts off last year, you know, traveling around the country, you know, speaking about grooming. And, you know, granted, some of the talks that I did had a no-media policy where, you know, they couldn't film. But even in the cases where I did film, the stories that did come out of there were always about like, oh, Grace's mental health and all that sort of thing like that, where I went to great length to explain grooming, the steps of grooming, the things that came out were, you know, Grace slammed Scott Morrison.

Grace's obsession with Scott Morrison. I reckon, you know, I did like 4,000 word, 5,000 word speeches. I did over 100 speeches and the mainstream media's coverage of what I spoke about. And I did a lot of TV interviews as well. All the policy stuff that I did, the updates, I barely covered that. But they framed me as being this aggressor. You know, I reckon I spoke about Scott Morrison, like 1% of the time relative to the advocacy that I did last year. And I know this, I know this because it broke me because I have to put myself back into a space that, you know, like physically, like it has a chemical effect on you to go into that trauma, you know, to not only talk about child sexual abuse, but to talk about, you know, the domestic violence that I've experienced and those sorts of things in order to communicate a message to people and the media, the media that had an opportunity to then transmit that message to the community.

community chose instead to focus on this adversarial thing, which was really only a fraction of the time. It was really disappointing. Well, here in podcasting, there's unlimited time. You can speak for yourself. And although if this conversation does get reported, I suspect they'll just choose one tiny little thing that you might have said about a certain prime. And that's fine. That's, people can listen to the whole thing. That's the great thing about it. Yeah. And but the thing is, I think that it's just unfortunate because often the critical thinkers are the ones who don't spend their time on social media expressing their anger about things. It's the people who don't critically think

who spend their time going row, right, right, right. That's a pretty good summary of the election campaign, particularly the debates, I think, right. So it's okay. It's all right. And I understand that. And also the opinions that matter to me ultimately, at the end of the day, the opinions of my loved ones, you know, and that's what you've got to remember. That's how you keep yourself grounded. And that's how you keep yourself, that's how you keep your head out of the clouds as well. You've got to not chase, you know, and also like approval ultimately has to come from the inside. You have to, you have to internally be okay.

You have to accept yourself and not need external validation. You need to not be chasing that, like chasing likes and things like that or, you know, media headlines and whatnot. You need to be okay with, you know, the Murdoch press going, she's a savage. And also like, yay, if you think I'm a savage because of my comedy set, that is a compliment, Daily Mail. Thank you. Good having you in comedy now, Grace too, by the way.

What was that like doing the rational features? thing that was like rocket fuel to me i love that stuff you know like when i think about the things that i want to do and the things that bring me joy like laughter is something that you know as someone who didn't have a lot of what is someone who had no stability let's be honest like i was born into a broken home um comedy is where i found a lot of security in terms of you know like i was a big fan of robin williams i was a big fan of bill bailey um and that sort of absurdist, you know, silliness. You know, I found a lot of joy there. And as an autistic person, too, it's the most purest ways for me to express myself where I don't actually have to do a lot

of hard work because I've got a lot of delays in processing in conversation. When I'm in, like, a situation, especially if there's more than one person, like one-on-one conversations I can do because it's like, okay, all right, you know, I can focus my attention and go, like, let's, I can do this. It's like, you know, chess. But if there's like multiple people, I'm like, you know, like there's too many things, too many moving parts going on, whereas, you know, comedy, I'm like, okay, it's a one way straight. I can do the talking, you know, and it's not, it's not actually about attention seeking at all. It's like I am communicating with you guys and we are together and it's like the purest form

of unity and it is really beautiful and like it's like I'm sharing and we are one. And I don't know, I just find it, because also laughter is so, it's so pure. You cannot help that laugh. It's involuntary, yeah, a lot of the time. It's involuntary. And, like, even when you're really sad, if you laugh, like, you cannot help that happiness. Yes, yes. And laughing at powerful people is a great way to move their power over here.

It's like you always, you always punch up. You never, like my rule is you never punch down. I'll only make jokes about my own experience, you know, like, regardless. us of what the outcome of the Depp Hurd trial is, mockery of any aspect of it, this is a trial that involves domestic violence and an allegation of graphic rape, the mockery of any aspect of it is completely vile. And I cannot believe it. I just cannot believe it.

Like, I haven't been watching it, seeing parts of it. And I'm just like, this is so beyond the pale. I just can't believe it. I've been sort of looking at social media on that stuff. And do you think that it's actually, Johnny Depp's got a whole team of social media people actually putting out all those memes? Like, it just seems so...

Yeah, it does. That's been reported on. Yeah, because it seems so... That's been going on since 2019. Yeah, it's extraordinary to watch. Because it's so brutal and such a quick turnaround. And it's, yeah, it's... It's, again, it's another case where people, a lot of people,

are not using their critical thinking. Again, like just examples where Amber Heard's clearly just blowing her nose and that there's a people are saying that she was using cocaine on the stand. That's just like people use your critical thinking. Yeah, I mean, I think there's plenty of basis to laugh at Johnny Depp and there has been for many, many years. But no, you're right. That's just that sort of situation.

There's just no comedy in it. Yeah, there's no comedy in that. It's a domestic trial. It shouldn't be televised. It shouldn't be the basis of entertainment. Yeah, look, it's a fair point. I hope you get to do more comedy. though, Grace, because you clearly relished that arena.

And it must have been such a nice change from all the speeches you had to give. And as you said, having to go through the things, you know, makes all these serious points, even talking to us. It must be exhausting. I really hope you can have a whole year of just getting to not talk about this stuff, having to remember all that you went through. And let's hope that happens when we actually fix the laws and make some progress. There's a grander design to it.

And it's like the opposite of what, when I say that's like the opposite of, what Scott's doing, you know, like trying to do it for the greater good in that hopefully this doesn't happen to more people. You know, there are lots of people, there are lots of parts of my story that again are really shameful that they are embarrassing. They're parts of my story that a lot of people hear and then they use against me. They say, oh, well, that proves you're, you know, you're guilty or that you were, you know, you were asking for it or, you know, you are like you, oh, you love petos and you're this and that and that oh you look it just kept happening to you and you know like oh this proves that you were you know there's something wrong with you because you just kept being

abused and you just don't know how to set boundaries and blah blah blah blah and it's like well perhaps you know like I never was given the proper examples you know like there's just just all part of the abuse and but I also like I'm really grateful I'm a lucky person in lots of ways in that like the trajectory that I'm now on and the position that I'm now in is one that lots of survivors don't get to have. There's lots of things that can be true at once, you know, and that's something, again, a lot of people don't understand and a lot of media don't understand. And, you know, I think also too, like the man who abused me didn't know a lot about my life. Like, he didn't know a lot about those sorts of things,

you know, like exactly what was going on in my home and like all the back. to my life, you know, he just knew certain things and thought he had the whole picture and whatever. But again, I'm really grateful in the whole because it allows me to hopefully, along with a whole host of others and, you know, the giant's shoulders that I'm standing on to hopefully work towards creating a future that's free from this, this awful criminal behaviour. Yeah, well, I mean, you had to fight so hard in the first place just to be allowed to use your voice under Tassie Law. And God, it's nice to hear you use it on our podcast, Grace. Oh, well, thank you. But also remember, you know, as far as CSA survivors go, like, you know, I'm in a pretty lucky category, though. Like, it's a pretty, like, diverse and intersectional community, you know, like you've got First Nation survivors, people of colour, people with visible disability. You've got refugees, migrants, you know, and the LGBTQIA plus community and other marginalized groups who face even harder, if not impossible paths to justice. And we've got to keep, like,

broadening the platform and remembering that these are underrepresented experiences as well. And part of the struggle is that I can't speak for all survivors. And I'm an advocate of the community and recognize that I'm not always going to say the right thing and can't speak on behalf of those experiences. And, you know, like I'm trying to do as best I can to sit with all of those people and, you know, make space too. So, yeah, I don't know. It's really difficult because we've got a long way to go in breaking down those

barriers too. You certainly do. Well, let's hope whatever happens the next few years, the change continues and that you and others with the same experience, you know, continue to talk about it and educate us all. So last question, last question. What is, what's your tip? Who's going to win the election? Oh, gosh. I can only hope.

Like your best case scenario. Best thing that happens is as many of the teal independents get elected as possible. You know, some of the Greens get elected to and, you know, and Albo is the Prime Minister. Thank you so much for your time, Grace. Well, basically, just go no. No. As always, Gary is from Road Microphones. We're part of the Acast, Creator Network.