The Chaser Report - Martin Shkreli, Lick Our Nuts | Ange Lavoipierre

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

The ABC's National Technology Reporter Ange Lavoipierre joins Dom Knight to talk about a radical tech cult that believes the AI movement needs to "Accelerate or die". Plus find out why "America's most hated man" Martin Shkreli told ange to lick his nuts. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Chaser Report is recorded on Gatigal Land. Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is The Chaser Report. Hello and welcome to The Chaser Report with Dom and Charles. Charles is in Adelaide doing his Wankanomics thing. But fortunately, we have someone far better qualified to talk about. Charles's favourite subject, AI. It is Ange Lovapier, who is nowadays a very exciting new job, the National Technology Report at ABC News.

Hello, Ange. Hello, yeah, it's Ange 2.0. And she pointed out of so many hats you've had over the years, but comedy cellist, no more, at least not for the time being. Oh, look, I'm never not a comedy cellist. Of course. Well, unfortunately, there's no cellar here. So we'll have to get by with it.

This story sounds wild. So your pitch was kind of bizarre thing to do with AI, replacing us all, and then that you were going to get docks. What's going on? Yeah, it was a very frenzied pitch that I sent off to you. It was, hey, Dom, I think I'm going to get doxed by a farmer bro, Martin. Schrelli, potentially. Yeah, he had been at that point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's because I've been looking into this kind of internet cult. So, you know, I've been on this podcast, but there are many podcasts that have covered the existential threat posed by AI, or at least the argument. Yeah. Right? This idea that once we reach a more sophisticated level of AI, you know, whenever that happens, whether that's tomorrow or in a few years or in 10 years, that it won't be, you know,

It won't be motivated by the same things we are who would end civilisation. And the debate continues to rage about that for and against. But there were a group of people, particularly working in tech, working in AI, some very bright people, some very senior people who basically got so sick of that claim that AI was going to kill us all

that they decided to fight back. And they formed this movement called effective accelerationism, which is shortened to EAC. So E-S-ACC and EAC is the movement that I've been looking into. Right. So it's basically going AI bring it on. Is that basically? It's like as fast as possible.

And yeah, at all costs, basically. We need to be accelerating. So I think, you know, I think people relate to some of what they're saying, which is like, hey, you know, do we really need to worry so much about AI killing us all? Can't we just be a little bit hopeful or optimistic here? But then, you know, when you hear them say, oh, we need to. speed this up. I think most people feel like this is happening at a breakneck pace anyway. It's already terrifying and fast. And they're going, bring it on. Let's get it done

if this is going to be an apocalypse. Yeah. Let's do it tomorrow. Not only that. It's like they're not, they're pretty much anti-regulation. They're like most of the regulation that's proposed. They're like, this is, you know, this is going to slow us down. This is not the right thing. They never get it right. They make these regulations and never review them, never revisit them, which is actually, you know, that's pretty true. But we need to, you know, Yeah, we just need to be going full speed ahead with this. So let's dive into the world of libertarian AI boosters after this. Thank you for your patience.

Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore? FIS is 100% online, so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at FIS.ca. Yeah, because I must say AI, Ang, it seems dizzingly fast. I mean, just this week, Google's released their new Gemini, AI, which apparently is

dramatically less crap than Bard was. I mean, I used Bard a few times and didn't do anything well. But it seems as though, yes, it's just everything's happening as quickly as possible. There's sort of an arms race going on. Yeah. There's no regulation, really, in any effective sense. They're just doing it because they can without asking whether it's a sensible idea. And you say, these people reckon that the current pace is.

too slow. Yeah. And how they've gone about it is pretty interesting too. So I might have mentioned earlier that they have a bit of a culty vibe. Yeah. So, you know, they've been throwing like raves in Silicon Valley. They're like very anonymous. They've got a very strong meme game. Right. So they're like big into memetic warfare. They're using the Gadsden snake. You know the one that like the Tea Party used and stuff? Like don't, don't tread on me. Oh, don't tread on me. Yeah. They used to be from the Marine Corps or something. It's got a long history. But the Gadsden snake is, you know, associated with libertarian movements. And they've been, like, flying the Gadsden snake.

And they've got this motto, which is accelerate or die. So they've... What about accelerate and then die more rapidly, if they thought of that one? Yeah, it's not as catchy, is it? Accelerate and be subjugated, die or die. They settled on that one for whatever reason. But, yeah, accelerate or die. As I said, they are really anonymous because some of what they're kind of talking about

is pretty scary to people beyond, you know, accelerating in and of itself. If you really listen to what the leaders are saying and what they're, you know, they've got these kooky manifestos online, they've got merch and stuff. Merch. Yeah, they've got merch. You can get like an IAC mug, accelerate or die mug. Yeah, if you really listen to what they're saying, there is a faction within EAC that kind of isn't that far from what the other side, the so-called Duma's, believe that

because they call them talk, you know, about AI safety people as Dumers. So anyone who at any point goes, yeah, maybe this is just a little faster. We should wonder what's going. You're a Duma at that point. D-Cell. And that sounds a lot like Boomer, which is embarrassing for all of us. Yeah, look, there is this corner of EAC that believes something quite similar that, you know, look, maybe we'll bring about more sophisticated AI and maybe it won't want what we want. And maybe it will subjugate us.

We don't know. Maybe it'll replace us. But if that's the case, then that's just the next logical step in evolution. Oh, okay. If worms had had the power to stop us from coming into being and they'd chosen to do so because they thought that humans might kill worms, that that that. that would have been a very bad outcome. I think we can all agree. And they kind of see AI like that. It's like, well, let's bring it on because humans can only survive so far, you know, the way we're kind of running the joint. So it's just a bit like the dinosaurs going, over here, meteor, come on.

Yes. Spesion. Speed it up. And it's sort of like, it's not like, oh, they think that AI will subjugate us, but it's like, well, or kill us or whatever. It's like, well, if it's not, if it doesn't go according to plan, look, we've still birthed a higher consciousness. It's our, you know, we're a bootloader for a higher consciousness. We've held the door open, held the door open for the next iteration of life in the universe. So the leader of the movement, who goes by the name Beth Jaisos. Beth Jaisos, catchy pseudonym. Yeah, it is. The meme game's strong.

But he was doxed towards the end of last year because, well, Forbes magazine decided that he was enough of a, you know, dangerous enough that they cited the public interest and doxed him. or, well, released his identity, not his sort of omadress or anything. But, yeah, so he went and did this interview on the Lex Friedman podcast. I've brought an excerpt along, which is gives you a bit of an insight into that, you know, replacement thing, this whole, you know, how he feels about AI potentially replacing humans. And it's a beautiful machine that has created us. And I think part of EAC is to appreciate this principle in a way that's not just centered on humanity,

but kind of broader, appreciate life, you know, the preciousness of consciousness in our universe. And because we cherish this beautiful state of matter we're in, we've got to feel a responsibility to scale it in order to preserve it, because the options are to grow or die. I would consider my greatest enemies to be people who support de-requent. growth, the idea that we should roll back the economy and sort of try and affect the environment less with less of this stuff, I think that this is a path to suicide. I think that this is just slow suicide. And a lot of these EAC people, they point the same thing out. Degrowth is just lying and waiting to die. I don't want to lie and wait to die. I want a good future for

myself, for my children, for the rest of humanity. First there, you heard from Beph, Jaisos, the man himself. I'm trying to work out whether Beth Jaisos or Jeff Bezos is someone I should be more scared of at this point. Yeah, Beth, Beth, Jaisos has, does have a surprising amount of power. So his real name's Guillaume Verdom, and he is, he's worked at these, you know, some of the top innovation labs run by Google, sort of, you know, doing secret moonshot stuff. He's a quantum AI guy. He's very, very bright.

He's in his early 30s. So he does have influence, like a lot of people. people within the IAC movement, not everyone. That was the second voice you heard there was a man named Haldong Mo, who lives in Gladstone or near Gladstone of all places. Oh, really? Central Queensland. Okay.

And he actually doesn't, he, as you can hear, really subscribes to a lot of the IAC ideas. He doesn't think it's going to take over and kill everyone. So I guess he's from a different faction there. He just thinks, you know, this is too good and too promising not to run towards and it's going to solve so many of our problems that we'd be mad not to run for it. Interestingly, though, Haurong Mo doesn't actually call himself an EAC despite sharing most of their kind of core principles. Because he's a place where I found him, which was via EAC's Discord server, he described that the culture there is such a cesspit that he doesn't want to be associated with.

A lot likes the ideas just hates the bros. Yeah, and it is very bro-y. And this actually leads me to the Martin Screlli thing, right? I was hoping you were getting into that. Let's find out why Martin Shkreli might have it in for Ange after this. Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore?

FIS is 100% online, so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at FIS.ca. The Chaser Report. Less news more often. Just to remind us to say, so Martin Screlli, this is the guy who basically hordered a patent of a really important drug and then charged a massive amount for it at one point.

His company, Turing Pharmaceutical, bought the patent for a drug called Daraprim, which is an anti-parasite drug most commonly used by AIDS patients, life-saving medicine, not used very often. They bought the patent and they overnight jacked the price from $13.50 a pill, US, to what was it? It was $750 a pill. And presumably this is very, very much needed in Africa, right? This was, yeah, I don't know what the global distro impact was, but in America, you know, people ended up, so it was a 5,000% price hike overnight. Extraordinary. Yeah, and, you know, it went down like a lead balloon, as you can imagine, publicity-wise.

You know, he ended up being hauled before Congress, defended himself saying, look, this is kind of a Robin Hood Act, this really just cost insurers and the government. you know, we will make sure that uninsured people get it cheap. But look, some people, people with like, you know, bad insurance because it's America, they ended up with thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in bills. And so, yeah, wildly unpopular. Got was referred to at the time by the media is the most hated man in America. He was called the Farmer Bro. He also bought this Wu-Tang album. That's right. Yeah. Oh, that was so annoying. And then he said he was going to release it for free if Donald Trump won the election. So this is like back in 2016.

Or he was going to destroy it if Hillary Clinton was. So just as a weird sidebar. So this is the Wu-Tang Clan, legendary rap group, like absolutely beloved by rap devotees, recorded an album and they made one copy of it. Yeah. They put on a thumb drive or something. Part of this is on Wu-Tang, right? Yeah, yeah.

It's definitely part of it's on Wu-Tang. And so they just sold it the one copy of the album, The High Spitter. So everyone else who wanted new music from this band, who hadn't done anything in years. Yeah. Like only one rich fucking. gets to listen to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a bit of a crazy rap about 10 years ago.

Like, Wutang weren't the only ones who did it. But yes, anyway, Schrelli has the only copy of that album to this day. And there's, yeah, anyway, that is a sidebar. What if it's a terrible? I know. You imagine. Anyway, so what did he got in for you? So I emailed him because he's quite a prominent IAC.

Oh, okay. Of course he is. Of course he is. He actually, I mean, he ended up going to prison for securities fraud. He got out unrelated to the Dariprim thing. It was a bit of an Al Capone situation. They wanted to get him for something, and they got him for that. And, yeah, he got out, joined IAC.

Tweets prominently is generally a bit of an edge lord online. I asked him for an interview. The way that one normally asks a person for an interview, you know, I just said, you know, and you wrote back saying, EAC doesn't talk to EAC about the media. And I, you know, I'm not one to give up at the first hurdle. And so I said, you know, with respect that they're examples to the contrary. And said, how about you talk to me about this?

Or I'd just love to hear you. And aren't you supposed to you bringing it on via the ABC's background briefing? But, you know, why not? Yeah. The AIs will ingest the interview and presumably speed things up. Right, right. So there was a lot of, you know, I pushed again. And he wrote back and he said, nah, lick my nuts.

And I had never received an email like that ever in the course of, you know, what, 17 years of journalism or something. Yeah, not exactly dispelling the most hated man in America. No, I think he kind of relishes the thing, right? That whole reputation. And so I wrote back and said, you know, fantastic thanks, just confirming this is Martin Schrelli I'm speaking to because it was a general contact email for his company. And he said, yes, this is Martin Schrelly, lick my nuts. And so, you know, obviously I've used that in the story because I'd be mad not to. But then I started getting, because I, EAC doesn't love talking to the media. And then I started, my inbox sort of started filling up a bit more. And I was like, what's going on?

I got one of these guys on the phone and said, hey, how'd you hear about me? Why you, you know, great to hear from you, but how did you know to email me? He said, oh, I saw Martin's your emails with Martin. I said, what do you mean? Do you work for him? He said, no, no, no, no, he's posted them. And anyway, go and check and he's posted our email exchange, you know, the vibe. And this is a paraphrasing, but it's very much like, the vibe was like, you know, ha, ha, ha, this dumb bitch journalist. I owned her by telling her to look.

Oh, oh, amazing. Yeah, yeah, really great. Sick burn, bro. Sick burn. And so, yeah, but because it's my, he's got my personal phone number and he does, because that was attached to the email, and he does have a history of doxing people and also harassing female journalists online. So, look, you know, that's just part of the price of doing business.

It did send me down a real rabbit hole, though, where I'm going, well, how scuzzy is this world? And what I ended up finding was basically a whole bunch of hate speech on, the Discord server. It's not that that's baked into EAC's principles. They're massively pro-capitalist. They're decentralized. They want all, you know, software released, given to the people. I'm sure they love crypto as well.

There's a lot of overlap with crypto, the crypto world, yeah. You can't swing a cat without hitting some variety of hate speech on that Discord server. So it's not inherent to EAC that they love hate speech. It's just the same kind of people who want this to happen.

I'd just happen to be the kind of people who also like hate speech, is that what you're saying? Like, it's just the Venn diagrams intersect quite a lot. Well, yeah, and then I wanted to know why. And so, and then it turns out, like, one of the main people that, you know, the most like celebrated thinkers, you know, the guy who EAC holds up the most possibly is a guy called Nick Land, who came up with accelerationism, which is, and they're like a riff on accelerationism.

And then the thing is, you know, 15, 20 years later, Nick Land also came up with something called the Dark Enlightenment, which is like the blue. for the modern alt-ride. So, you know, it's, I'm, I'm not saying that's what IAC is, but like, you can't help but wonder if there's something, you know, if there's, if that's maybe created a bit of a porous wall between like the alt-right, you know, there's just a lot of the same people sort of, and Nick Land himself, who's still out there, well, he's in Shanghai actually these days, you know, banging on about, you know, with his ideas.

He, he is a big EAC guy. So it's kind of, it's a really ugly world. It's an endlessly fascinating world. There are people in there who do really seem to not give a shit if AI replaces us and think that that's entirely possible. And there's also people like Hao Dong Mo floating around in that world who are just like, I think this will help humanity. Well, what happens if the AIs take over and, you know, get the ability to kill us all

and start with the old right and look around the planet and kind of go, these are the most dispensable people that there are? Your little flag saying, don't tread on me, isn't going to be much good then, because the AI's going to be like, nope, think I'm going to tread on you. I mean, it's entirely possible, isn't it? We've probably got at least six months before we find out. Okay. Just as long.

I mean, if we're all going to die anyway, let's just start with these people, people who brought it on a little bit faster. Please, Lord, take them. I hope AI's like irony. If you want to hear the full story, Ang's investigation, it is 35 minutes long. It's up on the ABC's background briefing podcast, or you can find it at the ABC website. look for a story called Meet the AI Insiders who say it's time to accelerate or die. This is finally aimed at that, that binary, right?

That seems like a bullshit binary. Like either we make AI as fast as possible or we die. What's killing us in the or die? In the or die scenario. The or die, there's two versions of or die. One version of or die is, well, every day around the world, you know, countless people die of preventable and currently unpreventable causes. AI, the kind that we're talking about, the super-intelligent kind, would fix that, so it would

literally save people. The other or die is we've denuded the planet to the point where we don't have long to go unless we come up with some big solutions, which AI will come up with. So there's actually a weird little core of environmentalism in there. I'm genuinely surprised. Yeah, I think like it's everything problemism, but yeah, climate change surely high up on the list. All right.

I'm convinced to bring on the all-powerful AI. Set it loose. I'm tired of living anyway. Our gear is from Road with part of the iconic class network. We'll catch you next time. Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore.

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