The Chaser Report - Mike Pezzulo's Textual Chemistry | Senator Nick McKim

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Secretary of Australian Department of Home Affairs, Mike Pezzulo, has played the game of thrones, and was winning up until now. Charles and Dom are joined by Greens' senator Nick McKim who says he needs to get the sack. WARNING: Episode contains nerdy references to Lord Of The Rings. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Chaser Report is recorded on Gatigal Land. Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is The Chaser Report. Hello and welcome to The Chaser Report with Dom and, Dom, very big news coming out of Canberra this week. Yes, Charles, I hear that there are some people in the Australian Public Service who is just possible. Just possible may not have entirely remained removed from the political process. What are you talking about, Dom? It seems impossible to believe. but look, Green's Senator Nick McKim, who's their immigration and citizenship spokesperson,

has called for the Home Affairs Secretary Mike Pizzolo to resign or be sacked. He says Pizzolo must resign or be sacked. Those are the only options available. Why on earth? Well, welcome aboard Senator. Hi, folks. Thanks for having me. Now, what exactly has Mike Pizzolo done?

What's he alleged to have done? Well, I mean, it's really a question of how long have you got. But there's a lot of egregious historical, context to this, which I'd be very, very happy to go into. But the most recent problems that Mr. Gizalvo is facing is that a whole raft of text messages that he sent to a guy called Scott Briggs, who's a very close friend and associate with former Prime Minister Scott Morrison. And in those text messages, what was exposed was rampant attempts to influence and

interfere in the political process, including trying to get right-wingers appointed to be his Minister and also really insulting and demeaning commentary around the Senate Estimates process. So just long story short, he's failed to respect the boundaries between being a public servant and being a politician on one hand and also failed to uphold the principles of accountability and responsibility, which is actually required to under the Public Service Code of Conduct. Let's find out more after this. Can I just check before we go any further, Senator?

So I just need to be clear when we're talking about any government job, was Scott Morrison also serving as the Secretary for Home Affairs at the point when this all went down? And I think this might be a trick question. So just just think about it, Nick. I will think very carefully and point out the difference between being secretary and being a minister. But these text messages were over a significant period of time, including during the leadership spill when Scott Morrison actually knocked off Malcolm Turnbull became prime minister. So there were people in various roles at various times, and it was actually during and immediately after that leadership bill when Scott Morrison became Prime Minister that Mr. Pizzolo was attempting to ensure that he got a right winger, as he described it in the text messages, back into the role of Minister for Home Affairs, and he was really, really boosting Peter Duff to come back into that role. So basically what you've got is a public servant who's supposed to be completely heuer and above politics, just a servant for the interests of the people,

literally doing sort of party politics and backroom backstabbing, while he's still got the job of being a public servant. I mean, I'm no expert in the public service and due process, but I would imagine that it's not conventional for senior public servants to pick their own minister, to pick your own boss. I mean, in your line of work in the Greens Party, you choose, Actually, no, you don't. Your members choose your leader.

You don't even get to choose your leader. In other parties, they do. But public servants don't get to do it. Look, no, public servants don't. And look, this is not just about, you know, Westminster tradition. This is actually about what is in the public service code of conduct. And he's required, all public servants are actually required by that code of conduct, firstly, to be apolitical.

And clearly, Mr. Bezillo has crossed that line. And secondly, as I said, they're required to pay respect to the preemptions. principles of things like accountability and responsibility, and he's abjectly failed to do that. I mean, look, my view is very simple, guys. If Michael Bezullo wants to be a politician, he should put his hand up, become a candidate, get himself elected parliament like the rest of us have, and then he can play in the sandpit, the political sandpit, and he can play as hard as he likes. But he's a public servant, not a politician, and he should respect the boundaries that exist when the public service and politics, and I can honestly tell you, I mean, I've been in politics a long time over 20 years,

in Tasmanian Parliament, in the Senate. I've been a minister in Tasmania, so I've actually sat on both sides of the estimates table, both opposed to departmental secretaries and next to departmental secretaries. And he is, Mr. Bezullo, is the most massive outlier in terms of the way that he behaves at the estimates table. It's actually quite shockless. But this is, this goes now to what he actually believes, though, doesn't it?

Because what has become clear in those text messages? is that he has become increasingly frustrated with parliamentary democracy. Like there's these text messages where he basically says, look, the parliamentary systems come to a bit of a standstill. It's gridlocked. What we need to do is we need to seize control of the government through bureaucratic means, doesn't he? Well, he certainly has been someone who's been running an agenda for a long period of time.

And I think his gender is, you know, extremely dangerous to democracy and extremely dangerous to some of the fundamental rights and freedoms that Australians have fought and died to protect and enhance over many, many decades. Like what? He's a massive, what's that, sorry? Like what, what sort of things? Oh, well, like, for example, I mean, he's a massive booster of the surveillance state. He's a massive booster of the military industrial complex and the security industrial complex

that exist in Australia. He's repeatedly driven his ministers to bring in. laws into the parliament that erode those rights and freedoms by creating more powers for our security agencies and for the surveillance apparatus that exists in Australia and, you know, we're the only liberal democracy in the world that doesn't have a charter or a bill of rights that actually protects those fundamental rights and freedoms. And he really does his best to exploit that massive gap in our legislative framework. This is extraordinary.

This means that at last, after so many years of talking about it, this actually is the deep state. We finally found the deep state. We did it. How extraordinary. So, but let's talk more about that, though, because I understand he wanted to introduce a system of denotuses, as they're known in other jurisdictions, I think, in the UK. And I believe he had a person in mind who might be given the power to basically stop the media investigating things. It might have been, I don't know, the Home Affairs Secretary who had that power. Is that what he was proposing?

Well, I haven't seen the detail of what he's posing, but I have seen the reporting of those text messages. And to the best of my knowledge, you know, that's an accurate statement that he did want to introduce a ration that would have made it easier for him or, you know, for him via his minister to censor the media. And, you know, that's one of the hallmarks of fascist states over many years. And, you know, I have called him a fascist in Senate estimates. And, you know, I've seen, I went to Manicilin five times. I saw the, you know, the human catastrophe that was offshore detention. and, you know, the lives that were destroyed by that regime that he oversaw and that he was an enthusiastic booster of.

And we've got to remember that, Sally. We're talking about jailing journalists, basically. Like, that was the law that he was pushing. He was pushing for these laws that would. And, like, that does sound bad, I mean. There are journalists, I wouldn't mind jailing. I'm going to be honest. Exactly.

Just for a bit. Like, just not forever. Yeah. Not throwing away the key. No, exactly. Not to sort of the detriment of democracy, but just to sort of mean you don't have to listen to them on the radio and stuff. You know what I mean? I'm sure

there's some people in Canberra who'd like to jail quite a lot of journalists till after say the voice referendum. But look, this is by the by side because what the... You know, guests on the insiders, jail for six months. You know, that sort of thing. Yeah, pretty much. I reckon actually, to be honest, I reckon there's a few ministers that wouldn't mind day. You two folks seeing the inside of a jail cell for a little while and some of your colleagues

some of the things you've done over the years. They can try, but they always fail. Yeah, except for that. At one time when I video had someone streaking and had 45 minutes behind bars, we're not particularly keen to repeat that experience. But look, it is worth not losing sight of what the Home Affairs Department does, because as much as we talk about the sort of impropriety of all the allegations to do with the relationships with those in power,

trying to pick your minister, trying to have sweet, cozy deal to get things done with members of the group that supposedly are the bosses of our public servants, our politicians, the fact that it's the Home Affairs Department does cast a certain shadow over this, doesn't it, because of what the Home Affairs Department has been accused of doing over the years. And we've just seen in the UK election campaign, the Home Secretary there, so a lov, Bravman, basically saying that refugee law should be thrown aside when it comes to asylum seekers of arriving by boat, that they shouldn't even be considered refugees, that shouldn't be allowed anymore.

And these are ideas that have been plowed out in Australian politics for decades now, that have inspired what's going on in the UK. What have you seen in the Home Affairs Department up close that makes you worry about this whole regime? Well, exactly right, Dom, and a couple of things there. Firstly, you know, our refugee policy is one of the most shameful exports that this country has ever sent overseas. And there's no doubt that what's going on in the UK now is effectively a carbon copy of what happened in Australia, even down to the politics behind it and the rhetoric. Even a slogan, stop the boats. Yeah, the demonisation of innocent people and the brutalisation of innocent people and the rush of trampling over. over their human rights.

But in terms of the Home Affairs Department here, I mean, let's not forget it was actually, it was a low creation. He argued strongly for the creation of the Department of Home Affairs, and it was a consolidation of his power as a senior bureaucrat. And unfortunately, you know, it was adopted by, you know, Mr. Dutton and Mr. Morrison and became government policy when they were in government.

And then a couple of, you know, egregious blunders by Prime Minister Albinisi when he came to office. The first was not busting up the Department of Home Affairs and moving back into a structure far more akin to what existed in the public service before the department was created. But secondly, I have no idea why Labor left Michael's although in charge of the Department of Home Affairs. They should have moved him on or got rid of him when they came in power. That was their opportunity. And now the chickens are coming home to roost. Do you think he's been texting Labor? Clear O'Neill. Are we going to get all the texts?

Well, I haven't had any. I'm a bit disappointed. Like, you know, like I haven't had any. I will confess to having a couple of water cooler conversations with Mr. Pizzolo during breaks in Senate estimates, but I can confirm, you know, I know this will be big news, but I can confirm that the topics of those conversations were Tolkien and Lord of the Rings because he actually gave it, well, he gave a speech. Actually, he's given a number of speeches. He's famous or infamous drums of war speech where he, you know, nearly declared war on China there by mistake in a message. to his staff. We've had what I call the Pizzolo Panopticon speech where he argued to an international conference

that security agencies needed absolute knowledge of every single bit of data that ever exists on anyone, anywhere in the world so they could keep us all safe. But the speech, my favorite or the least favorite speech was his Hobbit speech, where he basically developed a thesis that we're all these innocent hobbits living in paradise. and we need, you know, heroes like Mr. Pizzolo to keep us all safe.

And I actually asked him about that in a Senate estimates because the point I was making is that at the end of Lord of the Rings, the Hobbits actually went back to the Shire for anyone who's read it. Sorry, if you haven't, but the hobbits went back to the Shire where they originally came from after their heroic throwing of the ring into the chasm. And they went back and they took care of their own problems there and they didn't need the Pizzolos of the world to help them. So, yeah, no, he came up and asked me if I was a fan of health,

and I said he was, and he said he was too. The criticism stings, sir, but because he expressed it in the form of Lord of the Rings. Do you see him as Sauron or more of a Sarramun figure? I see him as Sauron. He's definitely overseeing Wardour there in home. Oh, goodness. Because it's Sarramon who ends up in the show. Anyway, a tad nerdy there.

I think everyone who was listening to the podcast, just wanting to catch up with the latest in Australia politics, just skipped forward a few points. The Chaser Report, news you know you can't trust. The other thing that I read was that he was the man who was behind, so after Home Affairs got set up and he had consolidated his power and had this sort of super ministry that he was all in charge of. He then remember those black uniforms that they rolled out as the official uniform.

Like it was a sort of pseudo-police. It's quite scary. When you go through immigration, you see all these sort of black shows. Black shirts. Yeah, the black shirts. Apparently that was his idea. What the, like... Well, it wouldn't surprise me if it was his idea.

And yes, that's the ABF, the Australian Border Force, which were sort of created. Yeah, so they were created as an amalgamation of customs and a few other functions. But interestingly, it came to light that they had spent more in a particular year on medals and insignia. than the Australian Defence Force have. So they love a good medal in there, I can assure you. Yeah, I'm just looking at the outfits here. They are quite militaristic. They've got the tabs on the shoulders.

It's all black with sort of gold writing and so on. So, yeah, you wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of that. And just to finish up, I've got a little theory. Right. So we've established this Pizzoulo guy. He was mates with Scott Briggs, who was this liberal power broker, and kept on sort of essentially politicking around that. He then starts pushing for, you know, like getting around parliamentary democracy.

And one of the messages he sends was that he believed that actually all power should consolidate around sort of five or six ministers, right? And the way to actually create an effective government was to sort of cut the parliament out of the system and just have, you know, five ministers who can just are empowered to do everything. A gang of five. A gang of five. Now, and we've also established that he and Morrison were quite close and, you know, Morrison speaks very highly to this day of Michael Bisula. Now, is it a coincidence that Scott Morrison during the pandemic made himself about five or six ministers? Like, I'm just saying, is that a coincidence or is that a conspiracy? Well, look, these are the questions, Charles.

So I just, honestly, I'm going to say something politicians really say, I actually don't know the answer to that, but it's an absolute cracker of a theory. Well, next time you're in Senate estimates, you should ask Michael that yourself. I just want to read out this quote from The Herald because it's quite extraordinary. So Pizzalor goes, you need a right-winger in there. People smugglers will be watching. Briggs says, agree. Please feed that in.

We'll do. Any suggestion of a moderate going in would be potentially lethal. VISB, which is Operation Sovereign Borders. So it's like it's a drive-thru menu of ministers at this point. Yes. Which really... Yeah, exactly. And, you know, he wants to talk about let's talk about let's talk about all the people that died in offshore attention.

And I remember well accusing Mr. Pizzolo of overseeing a regime of torture, which I genuinely believe that he did in terms of what happened on Manus Island and Maroo, because, you know, innocent people were deliberately harmed in order to coerce them to take. a particular action. It's basically torture 101. And I remember laughing at that and comparing that torture to the torture that he felt appearing before Senate estimates. I mean, the guy is just playing well outside the sandpit that he should be staying in. And, you know, he's been stood down and rightly so while the investigation's underway. And to be honest, I think there's no coming back here for him. And my prediction is that he will not. He will not remain as secretary for the own affairs. I mean, you talk about people suffering, Nick,

but just remember that he himself is suffering. You know, he's been stood aside on full pay, which is only $924,000. You know, how is he going to make ends meet? Like, he's only on $924,000 a year. He probably, there's, he could read the Simmerillion. He probably hasn't had time to read that yet. But, you know, like, you've got to think of his suffering as well.

Yeah, that's true. Why don't someone think of the suspended public servants on full pay? On full pay. But I guess the question is, how on earth did we get the text messages? At the point where you're sending a text message saying, we need a right-winger, please organise this for me. And there are two things you might think. Let's start jailing journalists.

Thing one is some people might ask themselves, hang on, is this going a bit too far as a public servant requesting a minister? And the other thing would be, I don't want anyone to see these text messages because it'll be quite bad for my career. I'm fascinated to know how this had out. It's had it all come out. Look, I'm actually not sure how it all came out. The journalists who've reported it over the last couple of days have said it came.

You know, they obtained the text messages through awful means. So, you know, I'll take them and face it on. I think they need a bit of a de-notice. Yeah, what we need is... We need a more powerful government body. We might call it, I don't know, home affairs. Yeah. It's able to seize text messages.

Yes. And delete them because this is terrible for national security. This makes us look like fascist idiots. Yes. So if we need to become more like actual fascist idiots, to stop this. Yes. Got to nip it in the bud. Yes.

Now, final question, really, just for you as a Green Senator, having sort of looking at these things, you've been in the government before, as you say, in Tasmania. Should the Greens not become a party of government if you want to do stuff about this? Because it's great to sit on the cross-benchers and have these inquiries, and the Greens do a lot in this area. And talk about Tolkien and we've seen your public service. But wouldn't it be more fun being the one getting the text messages, is what I'm asking?

Well, look, all I can say is we're working on it, Tom, And we're giving it the best shot we can. It is a long-term project, that one. But, you know, we're trending in the right direction. And, you know, I've often said this, but I genuinely believe that in my lifetime we'll see a green government in Australia. And I, you know, I hope that's the case. And if we do, we won't be surveilling your text messages.

I can assure you of that. And one of the first things we do is bust up the Department of Home Affairs if it still exists and start to dismantle with some of the surveillance on separatists in this case. Which is exactly what you would say if you were planning on doing the exact opposite. Yeah, we won't read your text messages. You got me. I am the deep state. Haven't we seen it in recent times that when you're not in government, you're very pro-transferencing,

then the moment you get in on those lovely treasury benches, suddenly everything's a matter of national security. There you go. Well, look, it's interesting to see how that long-term project goes. Maybe you could, I mean, teal is almost green. You could almost join with the teal, didn't you? Isn't the way you're doing? it the Greens are doing is door knocking. Have you been door knocking in the last few weeks?

Like, how often do you go door knocking, Nick? No, I haven't been door knocking in the last few weeks, but I've been working with our door knockers in the last few weeks. What are you doing? Get out there. Do you want a government? We door knock. No, we doork a lot. And it's a real privilege to rock up to someone's front door and give it a tap. And, you know, to be clear, there are some people who make it very, in the most forthright way that they're not interested in having a conversation. That's totally fair enough. But we have some great chats on the doors. And once you actually get into a meaningful conversation with someone,

it's amazing, you know, how effective that is. So, yeah, we are... Is it mainly just talking about Lord of the Rings or... That's what Frodo did. He went on foot. He loved going foot. Look, how many doors do you need to knock on, do you think, to win the voice at this point? Quite a few, I'd suggest.

All right. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Charles. Thank you, yeah. Thank you so much. Our gear is from... Oh, and by the way, this has all been recorded.

Oh, you are a surveilling this conversation. We're surveilling this conversation. Our gears from Roe, we're part of the Iconiclast Network. We'll catch you tomorrow. And we're going to publish your text to Bob Brown very, very shortly. Oh, yeah, no, they're juicy. I can assure you of that.