The Chaser Report - REPEAT: Why Definitions Matter | Grace Tame

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

Given her phenomenal recent speech at her old high school about her journey and the personal toll of activism, we thought it would be appropriate to revisit our chat with Grace Tame from earlier this year.Grace Tame is an advocate for sexual assault survivors, and this year's Australian of the Year. We asked her about the changes that she's fighting for, and how she's using her platform to make things happen – and discovered that optimism and humour are a very important part of how she operates.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is The Chaser Report. Hello and welcome to another afternoon edition of The Chaser Report. Dom Knight here with Gabby Bolton. Gabby, one of the highlights of our year had to be the chat with Grace Tame for a few months ago. Absolutely. I still haven't quite come down from the cloud I was on listening to her talk. She was just extraordinary. And it was before we did afternoon editions and really highlighted the standalone interviews that we did.

And that was a particularly extraordinary. And Grace has been in the news this week. on Australian story. They videoed her speaking to her old school and that whole journey that she went on and talked about the personal toll that all this activism has taken on her and it just made me just think again

how extraordinary she is for doing all this work to try and change the law. Also in New South Wales where we live landmark sexual consent laws have just passed the Parliament. So these issues are in the front of everyone's mind so what a great chance to listen. Once again to our amazing chat

with the extraordinary Grace Tame in a moment on The Chaser Report. Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore? FIS is 100% online, so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply.

Details at FIS.ca. The Chaser Report, news a few days after it happens. Grace, thank you so much for joining us. Oh, thank you guys for having me. What's it like being Australian of the year when about half the country is in lockdown and you can't actually go and visit most of it? Well, I don't really have anything to compare it to, I suppose.

You know, what's being the Australian of the year in any circumstances? Yeah, well, what do you do? What do I do? That's a great question. No, I do an awful lot of talking to people, not just, you know, in the context of public speaking, but, you know, advocacy behind the scenes, privately talking with survivors, but also meeting with relevant policy and decision makers, you know, members of both political parties or all political parties, I should

say, there's more than just two, and working towards creating actual structural change because there are a lot of resources out there that currently exist that are specifically for survivor support. But in terms of actual structural change, which as we all know, is the real thing that we need to achieve in order for change to stay and be permanent. You know, there's not a lot of organisations out there that are geared towards that. So my partner, Max, and I are in the final stages of establishing our foundation, the sole purpose of that foundation, which will be to pursue structural change. And our sort of initial campaign, I suppose, is a campaign to achieve national standardized definitions.

So currently we've got, including the Commonwealth, nine different jurisdictions, And as such, we've got nine very different definitions of grooming, for instance. And in fact, in some jurisdictions, grooming isn't even defined at all. We also have nine different definitions of consent, and we wonder why we're using milkshakes to try to teach people about it. We also have nine different definitions of sexual intercourse. And this is an interesting one, because in those nine different definitions, to be really crude, some of them are just straight, like penis entering the vagina.

In other definitions, it includes penetration by a foreign object or other part of the body. So we can see in those straight definitions, the LGBTIQIA plus community are completely left out. We also have nine different definitions of what a child is, so what the age of a child is. And then nine different definitions of what the age of consent to sex is. So in some cases, you've got children who are able to consent to sex. And it is important to note that, of course, we don't want to be punishing kids who are in consent. to relationships who are, you know, 16, 17, 18, that sort of bracket. But there are ways to create carve-outs that prevent those unfair punishments from actually

happening. But the point is, is that there's this glaring inconsistency across the nation. And that inconsistency stops us from being able to properly understand each of these things, which therefore impedes our ability to educate the public about them. That's our first campaign. It's funny because we actually came up against this definitional weirdness a couple of months ago. I want that description, definitional weirdness. And I won't describe the case, but you might be having to guess.

There was a whole argy-bargy about upskirting, right? So that is a defined legal concept in each state, but they all have different definitions for it in each state. And the ones in Queensland, the actual definition is so badly. our lawyers said to us, this is such a badly drafted piece of legislation that if someone downpants you without consent, then that is not the same as upskirting and it doesn't fall within the legislation of what upskirting is. That has caused a lot of problems for a lot of people and I'm sure you might be able to work out what I'm talking about. Well, actually, so what is upskirting?

It's taking photos of women without the consent, usually women without the consent from It is a form of sexual assault. Yeah, and it's a very, very recent concept in the court of law. I was going to say I felt really ignorant. No, not at all. It's, yeah, it's. I haven't heard the term, and I'm so glad you defined it for me, because in my mind, I'm upskirting, I'm thinking this is a carpentry.

Yeah, it's like a joist. I think that might be the definition in Tasmania. We're that far behind. So you've got to get all of the legal side of things harmonised so that we're all working off the same page. But then I guess there's a question of how do we change behaviours? And the debate that we've had since you became Australian of the year has focused a lot on this, how you actually change people's actions.

What do you think we need to do on that front? We really need to be open, honest and raw, which is obviously hard to do like on a national stage. For instance, you know, not only did I not have a very long time when I made my acceptance speech at the Australian of the Year Awards. But it's also, it's hard to get that graphic in that context. And even, you know, when I had a lot longer to talk at the press club in March, I didn't go into a lot of the gory details.

And there's a merit to that because obviously, you know, we need to protect ourselves. And I didn't want the media to sensationalize things because there's sensationalism. And then there's honesty. but I think it's really about opening people's eyes to just how insidious sex crimes are, but more so than anything, really, really honing in on the psychological manipulation that underpins them. That's our real knowledge gap. These terms like grooming and coercive control and indeed upskirting are still very new.

terms and our understanding of those things is still lacking. And I think that we need to keep the conversation going around those things. Because that's not really how the media reports on these sorts of crimes, is it? They sort of tend to focus on the sort of violent details, which is actually not really necessarily. It's the tip of the iceberg. You know, in so many cases, you know, it's, in my case, the grooming. the psychological manipulation went on for a period of months. But there are a lot of cases where

the grooming is, you know, done over a period of years. And also there's the fact that the psychological impacts of those sorts of, you know, those forms of manipulation last long after the abuse itself stops. The cognitive dissonance remains, the shame and the guilt. It's an ongoing thing. And a lot of trauma, especially that you experience as a child, can lie dormant in you because you, as a child, there's a thing like where we're exposed to so much shit that after a point, you just stop being surprised by it. And it does. It becomes normal. you're desensitized. Often not until we are much older

and have life experience in which to contextualize the things that happened when we didn't have a frame of reference, that we realize just how bad they are. For me, it's only been in the last four, five years that I've had conversations with people and shared details.

Often I do this to Max inadvertently. I'll just say something that I've processed or that I hear in my head all the time, you know, that's just the detail of the abuse and I'll say it out loud, really off the cuff, and Max will have a visceral reaction to it. Like it's, and that makes me sort of, like I feel a little bit, it's not like self-pity, but it's like, you know, it's confronting when somebody else reacts in that way. It sounds like there's a deprogramming that happens. Yeah, it is.

As part of the recovery process, in terms of providing support and counseling and all the psychological assistance. Where are we with that? Are we miles off where we need to be to help people who've been through this? Well, again, it's hard to measure. The problem that we're facing at the moment is we're sort of seeing a mass, like an on-mass disclosure where, for instance, my speech triggered Brittany Higgins to come forward and so on and so on. There have been lots of reports by Lifeline and other such helplines sharing that they're experiencing an unprecedented number of calls and requests and I too personally I get disclosures that I can't the volume of them is yeah you know it's constant you know how can we adequately measure at this stage so

early on in this shift from total silence yeah you know to sort of this explosion of people coming forward how do we measure something adequately that we have been conditioned for so long to believe is unspeakable. There are so many hidden cases still. And sadly, we'll never know how many never actually reach that point of feeling ready to disclose their experience. Can I just say, as a woman watching another woman around my age, make the speech that you made and win the award and the acclaim that you have for,

it's just like, I just think you're fucking incredible. And I think what you have done for not only just women worldwide, but particularly in this country, do you think that there is a genuine issue with not only how we treat the terms of sexual assault, they're not being consistency with how it's discussed, but also just the fact that women in particular are so used to just repressing these horrible things. And also we're not educating the boys of this country. to also create equilibrium between gendered violence and everything.

I just, yeah, I love you so much, but yeah, I just. Thank you. And you've said some very kind things. I don't know if I'd describe myself in the same way, but I'll... It's all right. That's what we're for. It's supposed to be getting better at taking compliments. So thank you.

That's the thing. So much of our subservience as women is subconscious. Yeah. And that is then compounded by the willful internalised misogyny. You know, we cut these unspoken deals with the patriarchy because we think that's what we need to do to protect ourselves just to go with the status quo. You know, it's very hard to go out against the crowd. How we break that down, though, is we just have to keep talking about it.

Just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and keep making little movements forward. But also, I'm personally really wary of giving too much. much into anger, even when it's justified, because unfortunately, you know, anger can sort of tire us out. It takes a lot of oxygen. It can tire us out. And it can also be a deterrent to the people that we need to bring on board with our cause. I mean, it is hard to do that, though. That's why you're such a fucking champion. I have no idea how you do it. Yeah, I just think you are such a brilliant example of just the perfect advocate. I just, you're just amazing. I certainly don't have all the answers though that's the thing you know there's an expectation that the media

often has when somebody comes along that they're going to have all the answers they also then in this exact same context they'll expect me to be the perfect victim they'll expect me to be a counsellor yeah when we really need everyone to be involved and everyone to realize that we all we are all stakeholders in the cause of ending sexual abuse and specifically sexual abuse of children because children are our future. And if we don't wake up to that now, yeah. So I know you're not a fan of anger, but what signal does it send that Christian Porter

was made Leader of the House a few weeks ago? It was complete apathy. I think some people might interpret it as ignorance, but I think that that would be letting our supposed leaders get off, Scott Frey, pun intended. Good one. I mean, it was clearly intentional. It was clearly, you know, he is an alleged rapist.

Yeah, and look, exactly he is. He's an alleged rapist. And what does it say about his values that he pointed that guy to? Scott Morrison. Well, yeah, okay, so the issue is not really with Christian Porter's character. You know, because of the circumstances surrounding the allegations, you know, there can't be a case, is alleged victim, suicided. But what does it say about Scott Morrison?

Yes, so again, it's not about Christian Porter. He's a very obvious scapegoat. You know, he's someone that is easily thrown under the bus because, you know, the Prime Minister, Scott, would know that he would again be vilified. Regardless of whether or not someone has committed a crime such as rape, If they're holding a position of public trust, they need to demonstrate their worthiness of that. And in this case, the bare minimum that Scott Morrison, like the bare minimum

course of action that Scott Morrison could have undertaken was to allow an independent inquiry and he has repeatedly rejected an independent inquiry. That to me speaks volumes. That is cover up culture in full flight. And then that's not even to mention the ABC debacle. Well, you mentioned that part of your job is having conversations and one of the amazing things about you being named as trained at the year and there were lots of other amazing people in the room but it just meant that we as a nation were going to, we committed to having this conversation for the next 12 months and it was just an

incredible moment when that announcement was made. What's your relationship with Scott Morrison like? Do you feel he listens to you? Has he made any commitments? I mean, where are we at with this conversation? Because he's committed. to change what he does. He comes out and says that he will. But I can see, you know, from the Christian Porter decision, that sends a very different message. So what are the prospects of working

with this government? That remains to be seen, doesn't it? Look, I've met with, I've been acting in good faith and we'll continue to act in good faith because although I'm a firm believer in speaking out and calling out in justice when I say it, which is again, something that I'll continue to do, I'm also a believer in ultimately, like, the bigger picture is the most important thing. I'm a utilitarian, you know, the greater good is that's the most important thing. And I'm prepared to put aside some personal grievances. In some cases, in other cases, I do have to draw a line in the sand. But in the interest of this campaign to get uniformed national standardised definitions,

I did actually meet with the federal attorney general Michaela Cash, you know, even though I do not condone her complicity in certain things that have transpired and her failure to reach out to Brittany Higgins, I think that's just, I know, that's beyond. And I've met with the Minister for Families and Social Services and Rustin. I've met with a number of other policy and decision makers, and I talk to all the parties, and I'll continue doing that. But it is hard.

I think that, you know, if I'm being really honest, I don't think that the current government really cares. I don't think that they're running the country so much as a campaign to stay in power. Fuck, you're cool. Sorry. You're so cool. All right. Thank you for your patience.

Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore. FIS is 100% online, so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. The Chaser Report, news you can't trust. You obviously care so much about your cause and you work with such passion

and you're so wonderfully spoken. Do you ever think about running politically? Or do you, are you happy just doing your activism? As you can see, as you can say, politics is a dirty game. It's inherently dirty. You can't, there's no such thing as a clean politician, I don't think. You know, all you need to do is read PowerPlay by Julia Banks. She's a fantastic writer, actually.

But that's just, that's all the sort of the information that you need. You know, again, it's not about, or at least this is how it is today. you know, with such a, I guess, flippant culture, you know, the instant gratification is at an all-time high in our society. And so our politics reflects that. And so people become more and more desperate. You know, there's not this longevity for politicians that they used to be. There's also not the same standards as we can see.

You know, it's a very different fickle, even more fickle, place to be. And that's certainly just not, I couldn't do it. I'm too stubborn with my principals. You'd run for a second term as Australian of the year. Can you do it? God, that'd be amazing. I don't think they'd want, I don't know, they're too stoked about the. Is it true that they held an inquiry that Scott Morrison launched an inquiry into how you got appointed? It is true. But they didn't have an inquiry into Brittany Higgins. or into Christian border thing. Couldn't you have just been a cricket captain who just waved the flag

and said nice things about mateship? That would have been much easier for everybody, Grace. No. And I can play cricket. Why not do those? There's how you get your second term. Well, actually, I wouldn't mind asking you just as a little side note. Like, in terms of comedy and stuff, do you have any, like, favourites?

Is there anything that you, or like books or? Yeah, well, I mentioned him off air, Bill Bailey. I love Bill Bailey. Ricky Jervas is a naughty man. But gosh, he's funny. Who else? Jason? Don't try and plug the show on the show, Charles.

All of you guys, all of you guys, no. I don't know, there's just so many. I love great Australian. There's some great Australian Canadians. Have you met Hannah Gadsby as part of your time as being an incredibly famous Tasmania? Yeah, she's just down the road. Yeah, I don't know where she is actually. I would love to meet.

Around the block. Yeah. Yeah, I would. You have won, well, not one. You have absolutely earned and deserved and received one of the highest accolades in the country. Did you ever find any moments after winning that where people would try and downplay it to you? Yeah. Me?

I'll be really honest with you. until I arrived at the awards in Canberra, I didn't realize how big this was, until I arrived and saw all of the posters of the previous winners of Australian of the year. You know, you're talking of Paul Hogan's and such, you're John Farnams, your classic Aussie legends.

You know, many great females up there as well, you're Cathy Freeman's and such, you know, I was sort of... Because to me, I've never been driven by accolades or awards, I just have got this sort of one burning goal and that's to help people and to, you know, create positive change, you know, and to work alongside people who are like-minded. And that's not to say that I don't appreciate this, you know, beyond measure, I'm grateful for the opportunities that have come as a result of this, you know, the amplication of the platform,

but also the, you know, intensity of the connections now that I'm sort of making with people. Like I am getting to work with people who really are driven and motivated like I am. But all you need to do, honestly, is go on Twitter and someone calls you, you know, a complainer of the year and you're like, there it is. Sorry, sorry about that. It's just the worst. I hate it. I hate Twitter.

It's a hellscape. There's someone dug up a picture of me flipping the bird. and I'm like in a bikini or something. It was taken years ago. And I've made it no secret that I've battled demons and continue to battle demons. And I've backgrounded myself effectively. You know, trauma survivors, like it's very common that you engage in maladaptive coping mechanisms. And anyway, this person has made this big tweet about how, you know, must clearly have been on drugs.

And just go, what, people have time to do that. there's nothing more restrained than flipping the bird i always just i i always look at that kind of those things from a place of compassion though because when i think about it what darkness what unresolved darkness must there be inside of somebody to lead them to to to to want to be so awful you know without without a point to it you know it's one thing to criticize our lead is they they they in a way ask for it but they put themselves out there they run for politics and they say you I'm going to be accountable for this, this and this. But it's another thing for people to just tear shreds off an individual for no reason.

And I think that that's something. We have to feel sorry for those people. Gosh, that's generous. Well, I don't have to hang out with them. So, Grace, it sounds like you've got plans for beyond January next year. You're going to start a foundation. Is this going to be your life's work? Oh, I don't know.

I've also got plans to start a family with Max over here. see what happens but yeah i mean i'm not going to stop i don't know what what exactly what the future looks like nobody does and i've got goals and i'm like i said i'm stubborn and i'll stick to them and i'll do whatever i need to do in order to achieve them and i'll just you know go with the flow there's certainly merit to planning um to a certain extent but you know all we can ever do as human beings is take one step at a time by doing so we hopefully stay grounded in the present moment and resist becoming overwhelmed by a bigger picture that hasn't even fully formed yet. Anyway, that's just my thoughts.

What can other people do? What can we do? Like, it sounds like you've got this whole idea of deprogramming, the legal system in a way. Yeah. And it sounds like there's a bit of a job to deprogram politics and take the toxic masculinity. I'll take a while. But what about ordinary schmows like us? Where do we fit in for the grace time?

plan. A great point to start is I will not allow you to refer to yourself as an ordinary schmow. Nobody is an ordinary schmow. Not even me. I don't know. I've not even a long time. Anyway. No, it's like I always encourage people to not think of contributions and interactions as isolated or finite, but as being like links in a chain or dominoes in a line. or tiny sparks in an unbroken current electricity. You know, you have the potential to be a catalyst. I'll give an example. So it was 2019 before the law in Tasmania

that silenced child sexual abuse survivors was actually changed. I was granted an exemption to the law, which made me the first female Tasmanian child sexual abuse survivor to win the right to their public voice. And to celebrate the occasion, Nina Fennell, the journalist who created the Let Her Speak campaign, she gave me a bound collection of the first 5,000 out of a total 8,154 signatures on the petition to change the law. And often, like we've talked about, you know, numbers and stats, they're hard to comprehend without an optic reference. So I'll give you an optic reference.

This book of signatures, 5,000, is the size and depth of an old phone book. It was literally just name after name written on each page. Wow. And so thousands of people signed that. And each one of those is just a signature. But altogether, it was this huge collective piece of solidarity, literally a physical piece of solidarity, that ended up changing the law.

So whenever you see a petition and you think, uh-huh, my signature is not going to mean anything on this or, you know, you get asked to donate to this, that and the other cause, don't think of it as an isolated thing. Think of it amongst this huge, ever-growing, collective force that's creating change. That's extraordinary. You've found hope. Yeah, somewhere.

I don't know how you did there. Yeah. I'm a stubbornly optimistic person, though, as well, sometimes to a fault. I think it can frustrate people tend to be too, glass half, more than glass half full. I'm glass overflowing. That's incredibly impressive. I'm not overflowing and I'm making a mess. Given what you've had to spend the past, you know, seven months, eight months,

talking about every single day, just pushing this stone up a hill. It's incredible to hear how optimistic you are about it. For all that I have lost over the years and, you know, for all the pain and retramatization of this year, specifically, you know, I've gained all of it and more in return simply by being able to connect with people and see in real time the impact. that myself alongside the rest of the nation are making like I walk down the street and people come up to me and they will tell me their stories and they haven't told anyone their whole

lives and they're in their 60s and these are people who thought they were going to go to their graves with this secret that was chewing them up from the inside out and they're free now that's a privilege to witness that's extraordinary well there you go there's a conversation we needed to have grace and thank you so. so much for your leadership of it and all the work that you do. And we're all very touched that you made the time to talk to us. Oh, come on anytime. You guys are careful. We'll take you up on that. That's one of the pillars that's got me here, though, really, is being able to laugh, and more importantly than anything else, being able to laugh at yourself. I'll spare you the

grooming jokes because I don't think we're quite ready for that. Well, thanks so much, Grace. Great to meet you and thanks for, you know, all that you do. No worries. Back at you guys. Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore. FIS is 100% online, so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. The Chaser Report. More news. Less often. Thanks again to Grace for coming on the show. It really was.

was a very moving conversation for us. We really, really appreciated her time. Our Gives from Road Microphones, we're part of the ACAST, Creator Network. Catch you tomorrow morning.