The Chaser Report - Sweet Hope Chicago At The DNC | Emma Shortis

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

The star-studded Democratic National Convention has been going on this week in Chicago, so Dr Emma Shortis of the Australia Institute joins Dom Knight to talk about all the best moments, and how things are looking for the election in November. Also will RFK Jr’s brain worm convince him to endorse Donald Trump? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Chaser Report is recorded on Gadigal Land. Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is The Chaser Report. Hello and welcome to The Chaser Report. Dom here again, and it's time to resume our coverage of the American election. It's been a fascinating week in Chicago for the Democratic National Convention. Oprah was there. Bill Clinton came out from wherever they store him in between conventions. And as we speak, Kamala Harris is yet to give him.

her keynote on the final night, but let's wrap up on what they were trying to achieve this week and how it all went. Dr. Emma Shortus is back, senior researcher in the International and Security Affairs Program at the Australia Institute. She's a historian and writer and a US politics expert. Hello, Emma. Hello, thanks for having me. Hasn't it been a big week? It's interesting, I guess, when the RNC happened, and we talked to you about that, Donald Trump had just been shot at. He seemed triumphant on the stage, but the vibes out of Chicago have been quite remarkable this week? The vibes are really good, Dom. It's been a joyous occasion, you know, so much smiling and happy tears. And it hasn't, I don't think it's been triumphant. I've seen

it described a little bit that way. There's still, I think, nervousness amongst the Democrats about how they're going to go. But mostly there's been, you know, this message of unity and excitement and enthusiasm. And it is, it is just wild how different it is, you know, from just a couple of weeks ago, as he said. Well, let's take a look at some of the speakers and what they've had to say, but also the race more broadly after this. Okay, so coming into this, I guess there was that period where people were wondering, will Biden leave or won't he? And I mean, I must say, I didn't think there was any chance he'd stepped down. Presidents don't tend to do that sort of thing, and he spent his entire career working towards this. And his earlier statements were

very much, you know, I'm staying in the race, I'm the nominee and so on, and then it all turned around. But I must say, people seemed a bit lukewarm on Kamala Harris at first. They weren't sure could she do it? Was she well known enough? I still don't know that we know a great deal more about Kamala Harris. People do like pointing out that she used to be a prosecutor and an attorney general, but what she would do as president still seems to be fairly mysterious. Yet, it does seem as though there's an Obama level almost of excitement and of generational change. And the old word hope got dusted off this week as well, Emma. It did quite a few times. Harris was described as the potential president of hope by Bill Clinton today. So there's been

so much, so many echoes really of 2008. And I think that was acknowledged by the Obama's being there and being celebrated. Michelle Obama in particular spoke and the love in the room for her was like coming through the screen. You know, she's so, so popular. But there is, I think, as I said, still that caution. You know, there's that deep understanding of what happened after the Obamas were elected and how they were treated. That was acknowledged directly by both of them. And so I think that that nervousness is there. But the whole hope is real. And I think you're right about Harris and people maybe kind of not knowing her or the substance behind her policy platform that well. I'm not sure if that matters all that

much. You know, the fact that people like her and that the vibes are good, you know, that really matters in politics. But her vice presidential candidate, Tim Wals, did kind of outline her policy platform really succinctly. He even sort of introduced that bit of his speech by saying, clip this bit and show it to your undecided relatives. And so he mentioned things like, you know, making housing more affordable, making sure children don't grow up in poverty and a quite progressive, or at least ostensibly progressive policy platform. Okay, so we're still finding out a little bit. And I imagine her speech will be very long and full of at least more detail about what a President Harris would do. But one of the interesting things that's been said about

her, and Chaz from Pep, the 600-hour version of this, with our friend David Smith, who's on the podcast very soon as well. He, Chas was saying that Kamala Harris was almost able to run as a generic Democrat, and I've heard this phrase elsewhere as well, which is kind of funny given what a transformational career she's had, she's been the first, you know, African-American slash Indian-American of every job she's ever had pretty much, now potentially president. And it seems as though that generates excitement, but then, yeah, I still don't really know things like, what would she do in the Middle East?

How would she reform some of these policy areas? And I guess no one cares, right? I mean, I think people care. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure in the fullness of time, but you know what I mean? They're not really kicking the tyres on it. No, I don't, as I said, I don't think it really matters. You know, the fact that she is evidently well-liked, people like the vibe.

They like the joy. They like the laughter. And it's really interesting as well because you mentioned first. You know, she's not even campaigning on first. She hardly ever mentions the fact that she would be the first woman president. For example, Hillary Clinton. and talked about that probably more than she ever than Harris ever has during her speech.

And so, which I think is a really interesting, potentially campaign tactic. It's a way, again, of kind of turning things around on Donald Trump because, and this was mentioned by one of the speakers, you know, so much of Donald Trump's campaign is about him individually. You know, he's the savior. It's all about things happening to him, whereas this campaign is quite deliberately switching that around and making it about the American people. You know, Harris will always say, well, often say, this is about you.

and that's been the kind of tenor of the whole Democratic National Convention. So I think it's another way of kind of flipping that narrative on Trump and conveying that message of unity. And so far it's been working really well. So, you know, why would they get into the policy detail? And to be fair, as well, that's a trap that particularly kind of 1990s, technocratic Democrats have fallen into it all the time of, you know, explaining all the detailed facts around policy and political tinkering

and why we can't have radical change. and that hasn't been working that well for them recently. No, and in goodness, it's not as though, I guess, also Donald Trump has ever been known for detail. And one thing they've been having a lot of fun with is the giant book of Project 2025. Kenan Thompson from SNL brought it out. And I saw a shot over his shoulder, which showed that it was actually just normal-sized pages inside this giant book. It looks kind of strange. But no, I mean, they've been able to demonise his platform and what he's going to do.

But also, they've been able to really bring out the fairly literal. comparison of going back and going forwards. Make America Great Again is about looking back, but we won't go back, we're not going back, is such a rallying cry for the Democrats, and they've almost by accident in a way been able to settle on this message that's very positive and very forward-looking. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And I think that, I mean, some of that is purely visual, you know, because Harris is young and vibrant.

And so, you know, that vibe shift is really quite dramatic in and of itself. But it's also because you're right, you know, it's the contrast with Biden as well. because Biden wasn't able to articulate a vision of the future for Americans. It was all about being kind of the anti-Trump and being against Trump and saving democracy from a threat, not about making it better or making people's lives better. And what the Harris campaign has been able to do is really flip that and create that kind of hope for a better future, which evidently lots of Americans have been kind of crying out for. You know, the despair and their apathy and the anger of the last several years has been exhausting,

you know, even for those of us watching from the outside. So it's, I guess it's not surprising that, you know, there's so much relief in that change. Well, it really was quite dispiriting watching the first debate. I mean, I remember I was on the way into the studio here watching it. Charles and I somehow managed to record during the time of the first debate. And we had no other time. So, but I only needed to watch for three minutes. And I texted Jazz saying, he's got to pull out.

This is, he's just terrible. I can't believe that he's this bad. And so that was really quite extraordinary. And then they somehow managed to flip it around. and Kamala Harris is able to be what she needs to be for these people. And it's almost as though, I don't know, she's been sort of in the lot. It's the vice presidential role being this sort of backup role where you don't really do very much. And I know she's had some policy jobs, but she's been pretty low profile.

It's like she's just sitting there waiting to go and now she's been subbed in and it's working very, very well. Joe Biden on night one, I must say, he spoke for a long time. I don't imagine anyone in the room was kind of going, gosh, we really made a mistake with this one. and all the thank you, Joe, and the love that was extended to him, a lot of that surely was, thank you for getting out of this thing, Joe. Great call, mate, you know. I'm sure it was, you know, and you could see that, I think, because he stumbled a couple of times in his speech,

not particularly badly, but instead of, you know, the kind of horrified intake of breath that you would expect when that would happen and that people had gotten so used to, there was this kind of like swelling up of encouragement for him to get through it. And that was, I think, coming from a place of relief and gratitude that he had stepped aside. And he, I think, he acknowledged that himself when he said the line was, I think, I love this job, but I love the country more. And that played really, really well.

And it was quite extraordinary to kind of listen to his speech because it did, you know, it leaned into that kind of negativity in looking back still. You know, he wasn't able to get away from that. He talked about Charlottesville, for example, which, of course, is critically important, but, you know, clearly just didn't have the resonance. that he thought it should. And so having, again, having that contrast, I think, would have just really emphasised the relief and, you know, the fact that if it had been Biden, if Biden was the nominee, the convention would have been almost like a four-day wake.

Gosh, imagine that. It's interesting, too. I mean, the point I've seen made is that that that was what worked for him so well in 2020, but he was not the incumbent. He was not in charge of people's future. And so when people were worried about Donald Trump and felt that he'd been taking things to an uncertain place. There is a disconnect, though, isn't there, between the love people feel for Biden and everyone's saying he's the most consequential president, he's done all these things,

and we know he's passed a massive amount of policies. But the approval ratings weren't there. The voters certainly weren't hungry for more Biden. He was firmly behind in the polls, really, when he stepped down. And so even if historians in the future remember him fondly, and the Democrats certainly will remember him fondly, his presidency is hardly a slam dunk at this point, or presumably he'd be running again.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And our colleague David Smith has talked about this, you know, that he isn't necessarily the most consequential president as he's been described because while he did pass that legislation in the, you know, first part of his term, that was kind of during the honeymoon period when he had Congress, when he was riding high after a victory and could do those kinds of things. And when that period ended, he didn't really do all that much at all. And a lot of the legislation that he did pass, like the Inflation Reduction Act, for example,

You know, the lead time on those projects are pretty long. And so being able to see the results of those, you know, it takes time. And for whatever reason, whether it's his fault or not, Biden wasn't getting the credit. But I think as well, some of that, you know, kind of lauding of Biden and the love in the room also overshadows, you know, some of the things that he didn't do. And some of the reasons that he was so unpopular, you know, because it wasn't just because he was old. It was because he'd betrayed much of the base of the party by not stepping aside. by not building that generational bridge, but also by not listening to them on the issues they cared about,

like Gaza in particular. I think people forget that a lot of Biden's immediate troubles started in Michigan in that primary where 100,000 Democrats said they'd rather vote uncommitted than vote for President Biden because of Gaza. And that has overshadowed the convention still a little bit. And it remains unclear, I think, how Harris is going to approach that issue

and whether she's going to be able to resolve it to the satisfaction of the base. And I suspect she probably won't. It is a very big question, Mark. And by not choosing Josh Shapiro as her VP, I mean, I think Tim Wall seems to be working out very, very well indeed. Goodness me, his speech worked very effectively. And people love the small town coach thing. I mean, that's, I think probably we didn't realize just how powerful that was going to be.

But Josh Shapiro would have raised questions about the Middle East. He's a all-throated supporter of Israel and has been, whereas Kamala Harris seems basically despite being part of the administration, to have been able to leave it to one side and to slightly be modulating her language. It does seem as though the Biden team is trying for a kind of legacy establishing ceasefire. So maybe we'll see some action on that front before November. Yeah, well, Biden's certainly hinting at it. You know, I think he wants that to be a legacy item in the, what, five months that he's got to go in his presidency. But I think we should be pretty sceptical about that, you know, given what's happened so far and given that Biden kind of continues

used to frame opposition to the ceasefire as coming from Hamas rather than coming from Netanyahu, which is where it's really coming from. You know, Netanyahu's consistently undermined those efforts and undermined Biden at every turn, you know, to the point of kind of talking to Donald Trump and meeting with him, which is pretty extraordinary as well. So, you know, I think we should be skeptical about that. But it is, I think, notable that those efforts towards a ceasefire have been used to somewhat kind of diffuse protests as well to say.

you know, Harris, rather than initially as she was kind of responding to protesters to say, you know, stop, I'm talking here. She's kind of shifted her narrative in the last couple of weeks to be, to kind of suggest, you know, we're listening, we're working on a ceasefire as a way of defusing those tensions. But again, you know, there are protesters outside the DNC. There have been some inside the convention hall as well. So this is not, it's not an issue that's going away, nor should it. Yeah, I mean, even Stephen Colbert, who's been doing some barnstorming live shows from Chicago, had protests. protesters on this point inside his show, too, during some of the endless political guests that

he's had on too. So it's very much part of the conversation. Still nowhere near the notorious 1968 Chicago DNC. So let's hope that that's maintained. The Chaser Report, News You Can't Trust. Just the convention more broadly, Emma, I want to ask who's grabbed you. Who do you think spoken particularly well? I do love this speech fest. Someone who enjoys public speaking when it's done well. I'm a bit sad that we don't have this or a tree in Australian politics. Because when it is done well, it is extraordinary. And some of the speakers have, you know, really put in kind of all-time best performances.

And what a bench they have. I mean, you know, the only former president on the Republican side, George W. Bush didn't certainly isn't going to tell people to vote for Donald Trump. But it was almost an embarrassment of superstars that they've had at the DNC this week. It totally was, you know, former presidents, presidents, wives. I think Michelle Obama, we mentioned her before, was an absolute standout, like just the most, she is the most extraordinary speaker and her ability to kind of command a room is just something to watch. But I think, let's just put in a little bit of Michelle Obama, actually,

because the particular, this passage is the one that's been quite at the most. She understands that most of us will never be afforded the grace of failing forward. We will never benefit from the affirmative action of generational wealth. If we bankrupt the business or choking, in a crisis, we don't get a second, third, or fourth chance. If things don't go our way, we don't have the luxury of whining or cheating others to get further ahead. No.

We don't get to change the rules so we always win. If we see a mountain in front of us, we don't expect there to be an escalator waiting to take us to the top. We put our heads down. We get to work. In America, we do something. And wasn't she the one Donald Trump most feared coming into the race? I think so.

You know, there's been consistent rumours that Michelle Obama would run, which would seem to be borne more out of hope than any kind of attachment to reality. But she is beloved by the American people and Democrats in particular because, you know, she is kind of politically flawless, like to live under that, the most extraordinary political, pressure that she experienced during her time in the White House and outside it and to survive that and to really thrive, visibly thrive while doing that is just an extraordinary feat.

And I think, you know, particularly her acknowledgement in this speech of the way that they were treated by Donald Trump and I saw a New York Times columnist to describe it as her righteous anger during the speech was really quite something and quite a marketed contrast to, you know, her last appearance of this kind. They go low, we go high. Not so much, yes, she didn't hold back. She didn't. And that's been, you know, a fairly consistent theme across the speakers, you know.

And as you say, there have been so many extraordinary speakers and a real embarrassment of riches in terms of the young base, of the young leaders in the Democratic Party, you know, whoever kind of thought had gone missing during Biden's term, like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the young Congresswoman spoke absolutely beautifully. You know, she's really nailed that kind of cadence that really gets people right up into her tears. So they've, yeah, just been, as you say, an embarrassment of riches. And then some really beautiful moments as well,

like when Tim Walz's family were listening to him speak. Oh, they were very cute. Oh, and his 17-year-old son is like bowling because he's so proud of his dad. It took Gwen and I years, but we had access to fertility treatments. And when our daughter was born, we named her Hope. Hope, Gus and Gwen, you are my entire world, and I love you.

It's been so wholesome, hasn't it? Yeah, it's been apple pie. I think the person I wasn't really familiar with and enjoyed was Jasmine Crockett, who's a congresswoman from Texas, who really, I mean, she had some humor. She's a star of the future as well. It's almost like who's going to run next. so many interesting people coming through. And apparently they even bumped James Taylor on the first night.

Stephen Colbert was quite funny enlisting all the lieutenant government governors they got to speak instead of hearing James Taylor's perform. But I'm expecting we may well see Beyonce tomorrow who's been doing the campaign anthem of freedom and so on. But that's another example I guess too, isn't it, Emma, that they're talking about freedom and they're trying to claim the mantle of freedom. This is not the Democratic Party we've seen for so many years. It's really going back to Obama's optimism.

and assertion of American values in a way that I guess Republicans normally try to have the strangle hold on. Absolutely. It has been an extraordinary turnaround. You and I saw one pundit on PBS described the whole convention as lavishly patriotic, which, as you say, is not something that Democrats have been particularly strong on.

That's always been a strong suit of the Republicans. But this reclaiming of freedom as a concept, I think, is just extraordinary, because of course, That's always been, you know, the kind of area, I guess, political area of the Republican Party and particularly it's kind of libertarian wing. But the way, you know, particularly Waltz talks about freedom as an American value of just minding your own damn business and letting people get on with their lives and lead them the way that they want to lead them without judgment, even if that's not the way you want to live your life, I think is obviously just has such huge resonance and the way that they've managed to connect that idea, that kind of quintessentially American. an idea of freedom to reproductive rights in particular and bodily autonomy is just so effective as a method of political communication. And it's a reminder, again, of how bad they have been at it, you know, until fairly recently. So yeah, that turn around, that recalibration of the

idea of freedom, you know, the freedom to control your own body, the freedom to not be shot in your school's classrooms is a really, again, a really effective message. And it's really caught Republicans on the back foot. They don't know how to respond. Freedom not to be short at your own rally is something I think might be sensible. Donald Trump was out this week again, but behind bulletproof glass, which is fairly extraordinary. Okay, so a total love fest at the DNC. And it's almost as though they've just almost accidentally got their mojo back. I don't know how they did it, but all falling in line behind Kamala Harris so quickly. And the notion that would have been better to have a contested convention to have a live race about who was going to be the nominee versus this,

I think we know which has proven the most effective. Or wait to see what Kamala Harris has to say tomorrow. I just want to get your thoughts on some other aspects of the race as we wait for the final day of the DNC. As we record, Emma, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the anti-vaxer heir to the, certainly the Democratic kind of iconic name, if not actually their policy positions. He's apparently about to drop out and endorse Donald Trump,

but only after having the rumors have it gone to ask Kamala Harris for a cabal Bennett Post in return for supporting her. And I gather she didn't even take the meeting. And having seen some of his positions on a few things, I'm not hugely shocked by that. No, it's not particularly shocking. I think, you know, Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is seen as having committed the worst kind of betrayal of the Democratic Party, you know, in his initial challenge in the primaries, in his policy positions. And in his, what the Democrats say is the trashing, really, of the Kennedy name is an unforgivable betrayal. You know, he's kind of the equivalent of a labor rat. Like, you can never a Kennedy rat. There you go. So it's not at all surprising. Apparently, he did ask for a,

he requested a meeting and, you know, was ignored or rebuffed. And so that is not at all surprising. And I think it's not at all surprising either that, you know, there are indications that he is going to endorse Trump because they do have a number of similar kind of ideological leanings, I suppose, in terms of, you know, the idea of the dismantling the administrative state. And the military-industrial complex. So there is some alignment there. I think maybe not between Kennedy and Trump specifically, but in the movement that supports Trump.

There is a lot of alignment there. And so it will be, yeah, I guess really interesting to see what, if anything, Trump offers Kennedy in return for his endorsement. And, you know, again, it makes sense for Kennedy to go to Trump because all the polling indicated that Kennedy was going to take votes away from Trump and not from the Democrats.

So, you know, again, what would the Democrats get out of working? with Kennedy. But that has been an absolutely extraordinary campaign to watch kind of unfold and unravel. So yeah, want to watch. I don't know, 3% of the polls, something like that. So not quite possibly, I know that doesn't work like this because it's state by state. But if you looked at the national polling, potentially the margin between the two candidates. So interesting to what happens there. Of course, some vaccines is probably close to Donald Trump's biggest policy achievement with Operation Warp Speed. They actually did get the vaccines developed quickly and there was federal funding there. So interesting to see how that part of the

conversation goes going forward because RFK Jr. is pretty hardcore when it comes to being an anti-vaxxer, isn't it? He is and particularly kind of anti-lockdown as well. And that's where a lot of the base of his support was. It was the kind of, I guess, libertarian side of the American right-wing landscape that, you know, was so angry still with Donald Trump about those policies. about Operation Warp Speed and Vaccine Mandates. I was actually at the Libertarian Convention when Donald Trump spoke there. Were you? When he was booed, you know, because of like his COVID policies

and also for causing inflation and spending too much money, spending too much federal money and not dismantling the deep state. So Kennedy certainly had a kind of section of the electorate to mine there off Donald Trump. And I think Donald Trump was kind of aware of that, particularly after the convention and, you know, his experience of being booed, which he visibly did not enjoy. So that, yeah, that has been pretty, I think pretty interesting to watch. And you can see Trump's kind of discomfort with that and with his legacy.

He doesn't really know how to talk about it. But also, you know, as you say, it's kind of such a small, well, I mean, it's a small bit influential part of the American electorate because a lot of Kennedy's, a lot of Kennedy's money comes from kind of Silicon Valley, West Coast white lady liberals who are very much into wellness culture as well. So a lot of those very wealthy figures have donated to Kennedy's campaign and supported his campaign

because of that aspect of the kind of anti-vax movement that comes from kind of wellness and, you know, quote-unquote, holistic approach to health. So it's a weird coalition. I wonder if, yeah, that'll be the price of the support is potentially being, what's the job, health and human, what's the job in the cabinet that, anyway. Yeah, could be.

that would be interesting choice. Yeah, something like that. But yeah, that would be bizarre. I mean, it wouldn't be the strangest appointment. Well, there was a headline today. I don't even know if it was real suggesting that Trump might offer him CIA director. Wow. Okay.

Well, let's see. Let's see what happens there. It has been certainly a curious side note to the campaign, particularly when we found out about the brainworm. And if you want to know more about that, put RFK Jr. Brainworm into your web browser and check it out. But look, in terms of the numbers, final thing to look at is the question. question is always going to be, okay, the Democrats have pulled the big switcheroo. What's it doing in national polls? What's it doing in swing states? And look, it's not a complete slam dunk at

this stage, but the trends have been fairly promising, haven't they, for the Harris-Swall's campaign, that they may be doing what they need to do. And certainly, things are better versus Biden. Are they going well enough to have a degree of confidence, do you think? Well, I think that remains to be seen. You know, I think they have reason to be confident because the numbers are trending in the right direction. And especially in some of those critical swing states like Pennsylvania and Georgia, they're definitely trending in the right direction, especially post-Biden. But they're still too close for any kind of real comfort, I think. And you can see that senior figures in the party and in the super PACs that fund the election campaign are kind of saying, no, no, their numbers

aren't as good as they look. We're still being really cautious. And that's part of the motivation for the D&C and the vibes that's, you know, about getting people out, getting volunteers out. Waltz was, you know, so, he used the kind of football metaphor that I won't even try and repeat about, you know, every $5 counts, every phone call counts, every doork counts. So part of, and the other thing he said was you can sleep when you're dead. We've only got 70 whatever days to campaigners. And so that grassroots campaign, particularly in those swing states, is going to be critical

because it is, it is, at least for now, looks like it is still going to be very, very close. It is extraordinary just how long the American and political cycle takes. I mean, our election in Australia has to be held by, I think, April next year or they're about, so there's, or at all, there's about six months to go before we know there'll definitely be an election. And it's really not on the radar at all here. And yeah, we've been covering this for so long. It seems like a million years ago now that all the caucuses and primaries were being held and they were choosing the, you know, Joe Biden sailed through and Donald Trump sailed through a million years ago now.

And the Biden term seems like it didn't begin that long ago. So it's a strange process. It's a fascinating process. I guess we'll see whether the swing states come through for Harris. But Tim Wells seems more and more like Mr. Swingstate, Mr. Midwest, get people out to vote for someone who's, you know, coach walls. It's a bit cheesy from an Australian perspective, but it seems to be working. Hey, they love that stuff.

It's so cheesy. But it does seem genuinely authentic, you know. We spoke earlier about, you know, his son kind of crying in the audience and the genuine love that they clearly have for each other. And the way he leans into that dorky dad energy is, as we said, you know, super wholesome and does seem genuinely authentic. And it seems to be working for them. You know, he is a wonderful kind of foil to Harris in that way. And, you know, as lots of political analysts would say, you know, he reassures people who, there's the kind of code language of people who might be reluctant to vote for Harris. I wonder why they might be reluctant and why a white

footy coach might kind of reassure them. But anyway, you know, I think that's kind of the reality of the political landscape and cultural landscape in the United States. So it does seem like Waltz was just an absolutely inspired choice because he is such an extraordinary communicator and will appeal to those voters in Pennsylvania, you know, who may decide the election for Harris or not. And yeah, he's a he's a great speaker. He's clearly inspired the party. But I think it's also really important, you know, to go back to what you were saying earlier about the kind of the way the campaign drags on for an eternity to know, you know, to not get caught up in the kind of momentum of what's happening because it was only a few weeks

ago where it felt so certain after that assassination attempt that Trump was ascendant, you know, that the campaign was finished. He was going to win easily because of that single photo of him raising his fist, you know, and that changed overnight. And that can easily happen again in the the next, you know, 70 or whatever days. It's not a huge amount of time, but politically, potentially, it's also an eternity. Oh, there's, yeah, it's still time for multiple switcher-roos of a nominee. Who knows what's going to happen from here. But no, look, we haven't touched on J.D. Vance, but let's just say, he was mentioned very, very often in Chicago this week as well. So that hasn't been going well for Donald Trump either. All right, well, who knows

what twists lie ahead. But thank you for talking to the latest set, Emma. Great to have you on. Thanks for having me. Our gear is from Road. We're part of the Iconclass Network, and we'll catch you. you next time.