The Chaser Report - Wallabies' Coach Needs To Go | Peter FitzSimons

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Author, journalist, and ex-Wallaby Peter FitzSimons joins Dom Knight all the way from Lyon where Australia's beloved rugby union side just got smashed by Wales. What does Fitz reckon needs to be done to resuscitate the team, before Australia hosts the rugby world cup in 2027? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Chaser Report is recorded on Gatigal Land. Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is The Chaser Report. Hello and welcome to The Chaser Report with Dom and Charles. The Wallabies have had a shocker in France. Our worst loss in World Cup history, getting demolished by Wales 40 points to 6. What on earth went wrong? How did coach Eddie Jones with one of the best CVs in the game stuff things up so badly? just one game this year and losing seven.

And did he take a meeting with Japan about going and working back there during a World Cup where he was supposed to be coaching our national team? One man who is fired up about this is former Wallaby and prolific author and journalist Peter Fitzsimon to the Sydney Morning Herald. He has written in the Herald today that Jones has to go. Pronto straight away out the door. He says there's light at the end of the tunnel, but Jones needs to be off at the next stop. In a moment, Petty Fitzsons will join us on the line from France. Thank you for your patience.

Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore. FIS is 100% online so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Petit Simons, welcome back to the Chaser Report. Well, you've taken your time, Dom, to get the.

me on the Chaser report. Dockery 1 to track 2. It must be what now, seven years. I would have come on earlier, but unfortunately, due to unforeseen circumstances, I've never been invited. Didn't you come on to talk about the Republic with Charles at one point?

Oh, I did too. You ran us through the Fitzsimons model, but you talked so much about that that I'm not surprised. Charles is quite forgettable. I wasn't there that day. I was busy, so I appreciate you coming back. Live from France, of all places,

where you've been following the wallabies Are you still glad you made the trip, given the column you've just written about the worst? Look, I played rugby for four years in France. I've got a lot of French friends. I love being back here and seeing a lot of my old mates and people I played with and the games from the World Cup brings people from all over the world. So I call it the carnival of the cauliflower ears. You've got to have broken nose and cauliflower ears, and you don't quite fit in.

But it's been wonderful on that account. But the wallet is, it's been quite gutting to see it up close. And I must say, completely mystifying. you know, I just, there's a lot of things I don't understand. I went about six weeks ago, or five weeks ago, I went to my first wallaby training 20 years and attended their training session, the wallabies had in Paris.

There were two drones in the sky. There were three guys on computers at one end feeding information from those drones. They had 30 wallabies on the field going through various drills and things. There must have been at least that many coaches and support staff. It was a seriously well-resourced operation operating at a level that I could only imagine

when I was playing 35 years ago. And yet, despite that level of sophistication, when we came down to Showtime, playing against BG, the ball went up twice in the second half. Nobody called out, mine, mine! Which is, that's what you remember, Dom, from the Sydney Grammar under 12.

That's what you were taught. The ball goes up, seriously, the ball goes up, somebody's got to call out. And this was, you know, highly paid professionals and nobody called out mine. And the ball bounced between, and in the first occasion, Fiji gathered and scored what proved to be

effectively the winning try. With a minute to go in that same match, the wallabies were down by seven points, seven points behind Fiji, and there was only one way. You don't have to understand rugby intimately, the professional game, to understand there was only one way

we could have won that game. That was to hold onto the ball with 60 seconds to go and charge it down the field. Everybody, you know, hold it, don't kick it, hold it, hold it, lay it back. If everybody does it, we keep doing it,

Without turning it over, we're going to score a try and hold, you know, level the scores. Instead of that, they kicked, and they kicked, and they kicked again. And it's just incomprehensible to me because I don't speak to you as an expert on rugby of the modern game. I'm not. I don't understand the modern game. But I can tell you this, with a minute to go, you don't kick it away. And I talk to other guys that do understand it. You know what I don't get this, but was that as mad as I think it was?

And the answer was, yes. Was it as mad as I think it was to have seven penalties in the second home? against FG where we, the tackled player goes down, the ruck forms over the top of him, and we get penalised seven times. Now, if it was for not releasing the ball or standing over or take, I don't know what it was, but it was seven penalties for the same, you know, in the same area when we were pressing their line. We come up to the game against Wales and the ball's not thrown in straight. And we've got a line out where we're pressing their line to go to the lead and the Welsh guy

he catches it without a wallaby within two metres of him either side. Now, these things are basic things, and what I don't get, and my starting point is that Eddie Jones is a brilliant coach. No doubt about it in his time. He's been the most accomplished coach that ever lived, quite seriously, in rugby union. He, in 2003, coached the wallabies to get to the World Cup final. Don't remind me about that World Cup final, Pete.

I'm still, my heart still hasn't recovered from Johnny Wilkinson. But the resume, he's assistant coached to the spring box in 2007, in 2015. He coaches Japan to beat the spring box. In 2019, he coaches England to humiliate the All Blacks in the semi-final and admittedly lose to South Africa in the final. But, you know, of all the coaches in all the world that have ever lived, that have coached in rugby, there is nobody that's got a resume of success that's even close to that of Eddie Jones. He is a great coach.

But this year, it just simply not only hasn't worked, it's just been catastrophic. And so as I wrote about this in The Herald the other day, but as sort of these stuff's going along where you see, you know, constant chopping and changing and leaving Michael Hooper and Quaid Cooper behind and picking the youngest thing, I think, I've got this voice, you know, thinking, staying to me, this is a bit odd. But look, this is Eddie Jones. He knows ten times more than I ever will. And then we've got six captains in five, five captains in six matches. And I'm thinking, geez it. sense of it strange to make it look this is Eddie he'll know what he's doing and

when we got to the end of the world's game it all came crashing in on me this has been every bit as mad as I think it is and I just don't understand why a coach as accomplished as Eddie as good as Eddie as brilliant as Eddie with a force of

personality as strong as Eddie has coached a team that doesn't call out mine when the ball goes up it's pretty astounding with a score line of 40 to 6 against Wales I was admittedly, you know, a very good team in this day and age, a team that traditionally we would have expected Australia to flatten. Do you think it's possible that after all this success,

after essentially bucking conventional wisdom in other jobs, backing himself and being vindicated time and time again, do you think it comes to a point where you just trust your instincts and don't listen? I mean, his record this year's been one win, seven losses. So the rot was setting in even before the World Cup started. It's just baffling that it's gotten to this point, particularly with a team that, you know, very few people knew at the start of the World Cup. Who are these wallabies again?

Where's Quaid Cooper? Yeah, yeah. Well, there's truth in that. As I mentioned, the youngest team. You know, there's 20 teams here from around the world. And our blokes is the youngest because Eddie basically wiped out the veteran class. But on that question of, you know, where it all went wrong, there is a strange parallel here. And it's one I am expert in Alan Jones.

Now, I was going to ask, Alan Jones. I was going to ask, Alan Jones is the one person who would say he had a better CV than Eddie Jones. It occurred to me when you mentioned. But Alan Jones, I would, I bow to nobody in my bitter criticism of Alan Jones on a hundred things, and each one of them justified. But I've always stood, do Jones he's due. As a rugby coach, he was brilliant. He was a professional before his time.

He extracted from us a professional performance without money changing hands. And so for the first three years of Jones's tenure, the Wallaby's barely lost. I suspect, you know, the win ratio was probably something like, you know, 80%, which included the Grand Slam. He was a brilliant coach. And then in 1987, he believed his own stuff, and he could do no wrong, and he made strong selections, and he exhausted the players under him.

And I was long gone by that point. But he lost five matches in a row. They didn't have a victory. I think there was a draw in with Wales somewhere there. But, you know, he went from phenomenal success to crashing down and it just being a disaster. And that's been Eddie. I mean, Eddie's track record in all these teams that I've mentioned has been that he simply, his intensity wears people out.

But that intensity also gets performance. You know, the stories of losing a test match at 10.30 at night and calling a meeting in his room at 6 a.m. the following day for the assistant coaches, those stories are legion where he exhausts people. And so, as I put in the Herald the other day, when the news broke that Rugby Australia has signed Eddie Jones, either enough I was first into print, but I wasn't far off saying it's a great thing. This is a brutal but brilliant move.

There'll be lots of tears before bedtime. There'll be coaches leaving. There'll be veterans wiped out with no politeness, no courtesy. It'll be ugly. But the beauty will come because Eddie will get this team in hand and we will get performance. and nobody saw coming that you could possibly have Eddie Jones with the talent he's got available and there are talented players in those wallities.

There are very good players in those wallities, but they played with absolutely no cohesion at all. And, you know, it looked like 15 individuals doing their very best, but they're seeing no pattern of players in. No patent successful. And that was another thing while I've got your ear on. That I always told the story back in Sydney University,

team 30 years ago, Nick Farr Jones, the Wallaby World Cup winning captain, was captain the Sydney University first grade for the first seven matches of the, uh, of the Cute Shield season, and we won six out of seven. He then goes off the Wallaby duties. I take over as captain. I think we lost seven out of seven. I'm not a good captain. You know, I didn't, I don't read the game. I didn't read the game. I didn't understand the game. But I've written biographies of Far Jones and John Eels, both of whom were good captains. And the essence of good captaincy, I'd say a two, a couple, A couple of things. One is, has to have, like Far Jones, this white-hot intensity of desire to win,

that if you're on his team, all you can do is try to hold on, to try to get somewhere near his level of intensity. But you need the captain to be just eyeballs rolling, desperate to win. You also need the captain to be what Eels was, that when you were trying a particular method to get up field that wasn't working, or you were getting hammered, you changed tactics. You bring everybody in hand. saying, right, this is what we're going to do, this is how we're going to do it, that's not

working to do this. And what I don't understand again is, as I mentioned against Fiji, seven or eight penalties, whatever it was in that second half, where the player got tackled, the ball didn't come out or somebody took out somebody standing over the ball or was offside or whatever, but it was absolutely crushing that about every four or five minutes, penalties, right, they're not releasing the ball, penalties, whatever it was, where we're pressing their line, they get a penalty. There was nobody there to say, Dom, listen to me. Stop this. Stop this. This is insane. Against Wales, again, I don't have the stats, but it must have been five or six or seven or eight, whatever it was.

It was a half, let's go with half a dozen. Half a dozen times. In that second half against Wales, there was a scrum penalty where we collapse or something happens, but it just happened time and time and time again. And it just killed. And another thing, while I got your attention, I got to the match through the crush of people getting to see Wales versus Wallabies. And I got there, I guess, with 40 minutes to go. As I take my seats, out to the right, I see the Welsh team. Each one of them has a face-like thunder. You know, they look like, yes, we are playing for our lives in the most significant match. We've got to win this. We've got to beat the Wallabies. We've got to get through to the quarterfinals. The pride of our nation depends upon it. And they were doing these drills.

And, you know, like there was, everybody was doing the one thing, whatever it was, out to my left, I see the wallabies. And, you know, they're coming out. Some, maybe there was 15 guys out there when I saw it just running back and forth and mixed to each other and various things. And over the next 20 minutes, I guess, maybe they may say the next 10 minutes, the rest of them trailed out until they were sort of all out there. And then they did do a few drills. But the move, was not faces like thunder. So you're behind for the start. Well, that's, I was looking at it.

And I don't, as I say, I had no expertise in the way modern rugby's played, but I fancy my knowledge of rugby values. And I remember in the 2003 World Cup, I put a piece on the front page of the Herald saying the Wallaby's role in this 2003 World Cup, they are going to be roadkill before the all-black juggernaut. And I'm told to all of these put that up on the drawing board, whatever and said, this, this is what, you know, the media is saying about us, okay, we're going to prove them wrong.

And make Fitzsimons look like a dickhead. Thank you for your service. They did. They nearly won the whole thing. Yeah, well, they did. Well, but truly, I wrote that they were going to make the All-Blax. They were going to be roadkill for the All-Blacks. And I was there and when, and the All-Blacks came out and they looked good.

The Wallabies came out and they looked like thunder. They were just pent up aggression, emotion, passion, whatever it was. But from the moment they came out, I thought, these guys look different. You know, you can pick it. I always think in an NRL match. On the kickoff, I reckon I'm in it in. I've always got a reasonably good idea of who wants this the most. What's the feel?

And so for that match with Wales versus Wallopies, I simply have no clue how there appeared to be more tension in the stands of people like me going. Jesus, this is, you know, we're playing for sheep stations here. If we win this, we get through to the quarterfinals. If we lose, Armageddon's only about. three stops up ahead. And I had that feeling and I sort of put it down. No, no, no.

Eddie knows what he's doing. Eddie will get these guys to perform. And despite you and I are chatting for 20 minutes, I hope I've made clear, I have no clue why a coach as accomplished as Eddie Jones, a brilliant coach with a resume second to none, was able to preside over that mess. I don't know what went wrong.

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The Chaser Report. News you know you can't trust. They've got one more game to try and salvage a bit of pride at this tournament. And then in four years, we're hosting. We've got the chance to get the home crowd advantage that the Matilda's took such advantage of in the Women's World Cup,

but rugby seems on the downward viral at the moment. I mean, it's not just this World Cup. It's lost viewers in recent years. It seems not to have quite the same national attention that it once had in a more crowded sporting marketplace, I guess, with all these other national teams, the women's games are coming to the forefront as they have. What are we doing in the next four years

to try and put together a decent Wallaby's team? Is there a combination out there that might get us there? Do we stick with the youth now that they've started? Or do we need to just go back to the drawing board, get a blend of experience and some of these new players and just say, you know what, that was a bad year. Let's just begin again, burn the whole place down and start from scratch. Well, there was a brilliant piece written about this in the Herald today. As a matter of fact, I wrote it. And the theme that is we do have to rebuild.

I think the first thing is you've got to let Eddie go. You've got to say to Eddie, look, we'll write you a reference to Japan Rugby Union. You're a brilliant coach. Well, they're asking, aren't they? Do you believe that they had the meeting? Well, Tom Decent, my colleague at the Herald's broken all the stories in this skill. And, you know, he's the one that broke that story, about the Eddie doing an interview. And I think from memory, I think there's three candidates.

The story is Eddie's one of them. You know, and Eddie, Eddie's associate, his mother is Japanese. I think Eddie speaks reasonable Japanese. But, you know, he's the most accomplished coach of the Japanese side they've ever had. The all-black Jamie Joseph is about to stand down. So, you know, and Eddie sort of denied us, but, you know, if you said to me here, Dom, that if you said in the public airways, I've seen it seal donuts from the school cafeteria. I would say, well, that's just simply not true.

I'd be angry about it. I'd say, that's just not true. You know, that's absolutely not true. So when it was put to Eddie, you know, you've been dealing interviews, this is a press conference after Leon. You've done in interviews with Japan rugby. makes two replies. One, I don't know anything about that, mate. Well, Eddie, you do know something

about that because it's been on the front page of the Sydney Morning Herald, so there's a start. It's the talking point of Australia and Rugby, so you know what we're talking about. And, you know, he repeated it twice. I don't know anything about that, mate. And then, well, will you commit, are you committed to Australian rugby? And the answer is, I have made, I think the

phraseology was, I am committed to Australian rugby, there was nothing about the future. It was careful language that did not include a robust denial, and I can tell you a story like that, the herald does not go to print unless we're damn sure of it, you know, absolutely sure of it.

Yeah, look, a carefully worded denial is always suspicious in this day and age. But that, as you write in your piece, that may well provide an elegant solution at this point. It is disappointing, I mean... But the thing is, Dom, the thing is Dom, you work for the

Jaser report if you were doing interviews right, no, no, no, but if you were doing interviews right now for let's say channel 9 the current affair you know so in the unlikely event that they said we need dom night because his his brand of interviewing and comedy and satire is so brilliant that i mean i'm saying this that'd be unlikely to recognize your brilliance but if you were doing interviews with an alternative employer while being at the chaser report no problem because that's the way it works in the you know in the media media world that's no problem but in rugby union

when you've been hired you know billion bucks a year or whatever the figure is around about that for five years and you're really seven or eight months into taking over the rain and you're saying in the dressing room you're saying to the players bleed for the jersey love the jersey i'm here to i'm here to resuscitate Australian rugby and i when i interviewed eddie in paris he said look I had to tear it all apart because it's not working okay well jeez all right you're torn it all down but let's say it work okay well at the same time you're saying that you're doing an interview for another nation to get employment from then your authority in in the Australian dressing room is dawn, mate, and it'll never come back.

You're particularly at a World Cup. You can't do that, have it be a distraction at a time like this. Well, I think legally, I suspect the lawyers will say, and I've got no expertise in this field, although I did study a few subjects of law in Sydney University, but the lawyers would say there's, I don't think there's any suggestion of any breach of contract, but it's at the very least improper, you know, it's, mate, you're being paid to concentrate on Australian rugby. Having a distraction like that and being seen to look for employment coaching another nation, I mean, it just hasn't worked. And I think the way forward is to say,

Eddie Jones, you have been a brilliant servant of Australian rugby. You know, Australian rugby can be proud of your contribution to world rugby over the last 20 years. And as a player, Eddie was a great player for Randwick. He's the unluckiest man alive, never done or played for the wallabies. It just so happened, but just as his time came. And I'm I was around at the time, just as his time came to get into the wallaby side, Phil Kearns came out of nowhere, Reserve Grade Grand Week, to be picked for the wallabies ahead of Eddie Jones. He should have, you know, he's very unlucky not to be a wallop.

From Reserve Grade, really? Oh, man. Yep. And so he has been a great contributor to rugby. He has devoted his life to rugby. He's got a rugby resume of coaching second to no one. However, it just hasn't worked this year. It's been a disaster, and there's no sign.

of being anything other than a disaster on his watch. And you say, you know, one game for redemption. I say, no, Dom, Portugal, it just, you know, they'll beat Portugal. At the door before Portugal, interesting will, fits you there. You could step in for the final game. Just, you wouldn't need to do much coaching. You'd just say, you know, when the ball's up in the air, one of you just needs to yell mine. And when you've conceded a couple of penalties, because this is what ruins the rugby games

when there's a string of penalties, we all know that. You know, maybe don't do the thing that keeps giving way the penalties. Well, there's that. My point on Portugal is they could beat them 100-0. It won't change anything. The only thing that would be significant out of that game would be if they lost. And Portugal's not nothing. You know, they are really not nothing.

They've given, they gave Romania, they gave Georgia a good game. They've had a real go. And they've got some good players. As a matter of fact, somebody I know very closely is about just taking a position as their new, well, they're coming coach. So we'll see what happens there. now terrified we're going to lose to Portugal. No, we'll beat Portugal.

But look, it's just we've got to say to Eddie, there's got to be a way to say, give each other a hug, and everybody move back to their corners, and we start to rebuild Australia Rugby. I would ask Robbie Deems to come back, possibly Steve Larkham, possibly Darren Coleman. If Robbie didn't say yes, then you'd go straight to Steve Larkham or Darren Coleman, who coaches New South Wales, who's very highly regarded. You know, he hasn't yet achieved great results for the Waratars. Well, Larkin was a genius on the field.

He may remember very clear. with the headgear. Does he wear the head gear? Is he coaches? I think he should. He probably should. All right. Thank you, Dom. Thank you for venting.

Look, we'll offer Eddie Jones to try and lure him away. We'll get him as Deputy Rugby correspondent for the Chaser Report in the event that you're not available. Thank you for your time and I'm sorry you had to go through that. But look, four years to try and fix things. And won't it be amazing if they managed to put it together on home soil, given the terrible, terrible World Cup they've had? You can read about it in the Sydney Morning Hills. Thanks, man. All right.

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