The Chaser Report - Whitlam: Saucy Reformer

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

On the 50th anniversary of the dismissal, Charles and Dom reflect on the lasting legacy of Gough Whitlam from free education to women's rights to Indigenous land rights to an unforgettable pasta sauce commercial. Order the 2025 CHASER ANNUAL: https://chasershop.com/products/the-chaser-and-the-shovel-annual-2025-preorderListen AD FREE: https://thechaserreport.supercast.com/ Follow us on Instagram: @chaserwarSpam Dom's socials: @dom_knightSend Charles voicemails: @charlesfirthEmail us: [e-mail] CEO’s Super-yacht upgrade Fund: https://chaser.com.au/support/ Send complaints to: [e-mail] Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Chaser Report is recorded on Gatigal Land. Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is The Chaser Report. Hello and welcome to The Chaser Report with Domain Charles. Charles, it is the 11th of November, 2025. 50 years since Norman Gunston, I think, achieved the best ever result by an Australian satirist of being in the right place at the right time to just. genuinely disrupt history in the making. And Dom, guess who was there on the steps?

I don't know. Me. I was there. I was there. Are you serious? Yes. I was like two months old at the point. Seriously.

My mum and dad lived in Canberra at the time. And they heard on the radio what had happened. And mum walked down with me and my sister and we were there. Are you telling me? Yes. The Professor Verity Firth, A.M., the Honourable, was at the dismissal of the Whitlam government? And noted satirist Charles Firth.

I mean, it wasn't just Norman Gunston there. Wow. Maybe that's an inception moment for what you did with your life. Yeah, maybe it is. Not today, Norman, I think, was what Bob Hawke said at the time. Not today, mate, not today, mate. So Whitlam very famously said, maintain the rage. I feel like the one thing that didn't happen was that the rage was maintained.

Like, amongst certain people, they maintained the rage. rage. But most people just voted a couple of months later to get rid of Labor. Yes. And then that was it. But it also, we sort of had neoclassical economics for the next 50 years. It also kind of tainted Malcolm Fraser's prime ministership on an ongoing basis. And I think it's haunted every Labor government since. Like every Labor government since has really not wanted to do anything about anything ever. Well, this is the argument that Sean Kelly makes in an op-ed piece yesterday in the Herald. Oh, I know you were sort of making a joke, but no, this is absolutely the thing.

And of course, Switlam's famous line was Crash or Crash Through. Yes. And he did both. And everyone's gone, well, let's not crash through. Because no lost us. Yeah. If we just sort of stick to the right-hand lane, we'll be fine. Well, the other thing that Sean Kelly pointed to is that actually Kevin Rudd, at first,

there were quite a lot of things that he wanted to come in and do. and then the handbrakes got hit on it pretty quickly. And the carbon pollution reduction scheme, which is what he lost his job over, was an attempt to actually bring in a fairly major change. But I do seem to remember the Rudd government, now that I think of it was generally going, oh, we'll have a bunch of committees

and then do things in the third year, which never happened. So that's true. Look, the reforming kind of intensity of Whitlam, and this is, I was talking to Troy Bramston on the weekend, he's got a new biography of Whitlam, which has come out. And he was sort of saying, well, he did so much in three years.

years, that he's, but certainly from a progressive point of view, the most successful prime minister ever. Yes. Despite having, and it wasn't even three years, it was just shy of three years, was it? Well, one of the fascinating things that I was talking about over the weekend was how a lot of the institutions that we think of as sort of not even really government institutions, just sort of things that happened in the 1970s that just so happened. coincide with Whitlam, things like the women's refuge movement, right, which has houses all

around Australia where women escaping domestic violence, which is one of the biggest problems in Australia, can go and actually find safe haven in houses all around. Now, what I didn't realize was that what Whitlam did with a lot of those sort of civil society organizations is he didn't just go, okay, why do we set up some sort of accountable yearly fee that you can be paid and as long as your annual report goes in and, you know, you put the right logos on it and you don't piss off the minister too much. We'll do it. You know, you can have your money again the following year. What he did was he went around and he gave land to a lot of these institutions so that they would actually have.

just an ongoing viability that existed outside of the government. They became pylons of civil society that didn't need to go back to the government for another handout because they existed because they should exist and they should exist outside the exigencies of, you know, a current day government. So this is an interesting thing. I actually talked to people involved in the movement. Right. It started in Glebe with a house called Elsie.

Yes, that's right. And Anne Summers was the sort of leading light of sitting the whole thing up. It was 1974, so very much in the Whitlam government. And this was an abandoned house. They sort of moved in and changed the locks and started this refuge. Wow. And just decided to do it. And it got to the point where cabbies knew that if there was a woman fleeing violence at home,

the cabby would take them to Elsie's and Elsies would pay the cab fare, very high back in those days. And yeah, look, if I recall, the Whitlam government then came in and was involved, in, yeah, funding them and continuing. At Coff, Whitlam, I think, visited Elsie at one point. Right. If I'm remembering my interview correctly. Yes. And so this is a really big moment.

And the things, just the things that he did, I mean. But there were just, there were just like things like that all over the shop. Like, like, in every sector of society, there were things where you go, oh, well, you can trace that back to Whitlam. Triple J is another one. Triple J. Well, it was double J, wasn't it? Double J. But also, yeah, so the media, there was also.

Also, like, no-fault divorce, I was explaining to my kids the other day. Because in America, there's still certain states that have fault-driven divorce, right? Which is just horrifically unfair, right? Like, so basically, and we've got friends who got divorced in England, Dom. And even now, even today in England, if you want to get divorced amicably in England, you have to list reasons why you're getting divorced. Like, oh, he was a bit of a slob around the house. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just, you know, there's an example. Yeah. Irrecantilable differences. Yeah, you can't, you can't just go, we want to get divorced because none of your fucking business. Yeah, because we have the right to do so. Yeah, because we are free human beings in the world. But also things like, you know, he had free health care. Like he did like Medibank.

Well, Medibank and then Medicare, yes, absolutely. And the thing that's so fascinating. Free education is, well, that didn't last. But the idea was, it was very radical. Yeah. But the most extraordinary thing you can do as a reformer is come up with something that is untouchable. And that's what Medicare was.

I mean, it was Hawke who then, you know, made it work. Yeah, yeah. And that was the case with the number of things. I mean, obviously free education didn't last. But still, the assumption now is that at least you can borrow the money from the government. The principle that anyone can go to university if they want to does remain. And yeah, I mean, he did an. awful lot of things. I mean, we went to see the Whitlam, the dismissal musical a couple of years

ago, Charles, if you recall. But the thing that I find so interesting about this is the extent to which Whitlam's personality was reflected in his triumphs and his ultimate loss. Yes. It was Shakespeare. It was very Shakespeare. It was so Shakespeare. And I think it was, I'm not sure who it was, someone gave a speech. I think it was Noel Pearson gave a speech. I think at Whitlam's Memorial. I've just been reading some articles about dismissal saying, I don't know how it is that this upper middle class white man, Goff Whitlam, had such a passion for bringing inequality, but he did. And this passion just, you know, he went to St. Paul's College at the University of Sydney.

He came from a fairly patrician background. And maybe it was that. Maybe the college was so terrible that he was like, we've got to destroy this system. But, yeah, that he went through and went, we must do all this stuff. Vincent Lingiari in the dirt through the hands is another vital moment in. Yeah, land rights. It was very... Yeah, it was a key moment in that battle.

But then the one most relevant in my family was pulling Australia out of Vietnam. Oh, really? And because my father was in the draft, I think, or about to be in the draft, right when that happened. And the one time I met Goff Whitlam, I actually said thank you for, you know, being born, potentially. And it was quite funny. It was at a dinner. And he spent the entire night with everyone just coming up to him and praising him. This is just clearly what happened for his entire life.

The idea that he was a broken man, because it's like, he was just riding high. I remember I was at a cocktail party, and he came up, he was sort of working the room. Yeah, yeah, and he was so tall. He was just so tall, and he was so funny. He was just, he was the wittiest man in every conversation. And his schick was all about how smarter he was than everyone else. That was his shit. It's just a schick.

But the thing I like most about it was that when it was time to go from this dinner, the way that Margaret Whitlam, who was there as well, signal that it was time to go and that she was done was by pelting him with a bread roll. It's just like, he's been tied out with her and going, oh, Mr. Whitlam, it's so amazing to meet you. Thank you so much for all that you did. Mark, it's like, ohy, we pelt him with a bread roll. My mum went to Whitlam's house on the weekend.

Oh, really? I think she's very much a starry-eyed Whitlamite. Well, I mean, having taken her young children to not a suitable environment for children, and maintaining the rage they're on the steps. It's out in cabramatta. Yes. Well, that's right.

He did genuinely live in... And he lived in Cabramatta. And it was so austere. Like, and he lived there his whole life. Like, he just... That was his house. And so when he got elected, he was there, right?

At his house. And then... But there wasn't enough phone lines or electricity for all the cameras that wanted to set up. That's a cover his victory at it. Yeah, yeah. So they had to go. go out to the local, was it post office or something of that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's where he did his sort of first speech as prime minister. He, like, he had to walk down so that they had enough electricity to sort of get all the cameras. It's just a type of politics that doesn't really exist today, doesn't it? No. And, I mean, but the point that Sean Kelly was making, we should get back on the podcast at some point. He was making the analogy with Zoran Mamdani in New York City, another new story we haven't talked about yet. Yes.

And he was saying, I mean, here's another person who's come in with this passion to change things and who's caught the moment of a mood for change in New York City. Now, obviously, that's a very liberal place. You've lived there. Yes. But he was saying, you know, would you rather go really hard for a couple of years, potentially not last and be dismissed, but have a legacy that people are still talking about 50 years later as we are today? Or would you rather be incremental and stay there for a long time and do. less. And it's a really interesting question. I mean, it comes up with, I've always thought one of the most successful Australian politicians was Bob Carr, who stayed as New South Wales Premier for

exactly 10 years, had no chance of even losing really during that period, did a whole bunch of things, but was very much, you know, about media management and, and Messaged Day and all that stuff. He didn't really do anything. Like, he literally didn't build any public transport in that period. Yeah, I think the national parks are probably the main thing. But that's the thing. Is it having that control? Is that the victory? No. Or is it actually having a record of things that you do? And you talk to people who would call themselves realists about all this stuff.

And they go, well, incremental change is better because you risk being attacked if you do too much too quickly. And the whole point is you're going to be attacked anyway. Like, it's not like you don't get attacked just because you're going slowly. You still get attacked and you just achieve less. And this is what Sean's point was, was that you're only there for so long. Things can change quickly. What are you actually doing? This is all in the service for quarterly essay that he's writing.

What does Labor believe in? And for someone who worked in the Riding Gillard government, it's a pretty interesting question. But look, we've got to pay tribute to Whitlam's wit, I think. Because the best call ever in the history of Australian politics was Sir Winton Turnbull, supposedly, ranting at him on the floor. Well, I only remembered for this comment, I think. Right, okay.

And he said, I don't know, I just looked it up. I'm going to be honest. And he said, I am a country member. Remember that? Yes, I do it. Yes, I remember. Pretty amazing. And he also did, he did an ad for Legos past a sauce.

Did you know this? I only found this today. Goff Whitlam. Yep, apparently. I'll play a little bit of it here. Cari amici, Australian. Cuccinari non-dobre Eiserre Faticoso in Cucina, non-conquest a salce revolutionary.

He's speaking Italian. I think that's a great way to remember Goff Whitlam by. He was a great prime minister. He was a statesman. He was a great wit. But above all, he was an absolutely superb ambassador for the Lego's brand. The LEGO's Barth's sauce. Yeah, very strange.

Yes. Are you going to be having Lego sauce tonight in honour of Goff Whitlam? Oh, look. I mean, how can you know? Apparently, he and Fraser were genuinely mates towards the end. That's the nice thing about it, is that even despite all of that, apparently they liked each other in the finals of the time. That's bizarre.

I can't imagine, you know, John Houston and Paul Keating going, having a nice meal. No, or what, Paul Keating and anyone from Labor. That's quite possibly true. But then in the aftermath of something like the dismissal, you ask yourself the question, could this happen again? have we changed the Constitution to make sure that no rogue governor-general can sort of trick a Prime Minister by not telling him of his plan to dismiss him. They met earlier that day, apparently, had a very happy meeting, and there was no sign

that Sir John Kerr was going to go around and do this. Of course, you'd think 50 years later we've had a look at whether we should change the rules. Have we? No. No. No. Just convention is the thing. Yeah, yeah.

And as you can see in the US, convention. really work when somebody comes in and decides to ignore them. So well, so well. But look, regardless of what you think about it all, we'll always have the Legos Paster sauce at. We're part of the Oconocles Network. Catch you tomorrow.