The Chaser Report - You Were Always Going To Listen To This Episode

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

In this episode Dom and Charles discuss a new study by Robert Sapolsky, which they apparently do against their free will. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Chaser Report is recorded on Gadigal Land. Striving for mediocrity in a world of excellence, this is The Chaser Report. Hello and welcome to The Chaser Report with Dom and Charles. And today we're going to look at a book that's just come out that's based on a 40-year study of primates. It's come to the fairly chilling but fantastic conclusion that nothing you've ever done or said wrong is actually your fault. And that nothing you ever do and say wrong in the to the future. will ever be your fault because humans lack the capacity for free will. We're all just chemical bodies walking around and being influenced by stuff that's totally

outside our ability to control anything. It's a fascinating theory and Dom's been looking into it. And so, Dom, what does the author actually say? Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on. hold anymore. FIS is 100% online, so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at FIS.C.A.

After 40 years of study, Robert Sopolsky has concluded that virtually all human behavior is completely beyond our control. And as beyond our control, as, for instance, the convulsions people experience during a seizure where their bodies ride around, the division of cells or the beating of our heart. It's completely automatic. So, all of our behaviours are just predetermined. There's nothing we can do to stop ourselves. And is the argument that they're predetermined because of the preceding stuff that's happened to us?

Like it's essentially we are the sum of our inputs rather than having free will over any given moment. Spoken like someone who understands this a bit because we did an episode about it a bit earlier on. So it's not saying that everything that happens in life, there is no such thing as a choice. So it's not like that Newtonian idea that if we could understand where, every atom is, then suddenly you'd understand how the rest of the universe is going to play out. Yeah, it's not saying that basically everything is predetermined and we're just basically

following a script that we can't see. What it's saying is that we make the decisions that we make and act in the way that we act because we are the sum total of various experiences, of our biology, of our upbringing of all these sorts of things. And so there's no such thing as free will because in any situation, we will always do the same thing. So in a sense, it's just saying that we are the people who we are, so we always do the things that we were going to do. Can I just say, as a product of years and years and years of therapy about all my mistakes and all the patterns of behaviour that I've exhibited that has led me to this Nadir that we call the existence of me.

Oh, I thought we're going to say that Adir, we call this podcast. My therapy has taught me that the one thing that we can do is become aware of the patterns, that we exhibit because, you know, we largely bumble through life being this sort of product of our past experience. Yeah. And instead interrupt that by becoming aware of it and then actively changing those behaviours by engaging the frontal lobes of our brain, the neocortex, and sort of going, hang on, I am aware that I'm about to do this really stupid thing.

And instead, I won't publish bad parenting. But you did. Was that already about it? Precision. All right. Available now from chaser shop.com, not that apparently people are buying it from them. Actually, it's doing quite well. No, no, but that was against my better judgment.

That it's doing quite well. But Charles, you see, if you fire the argument through, and this is what starts to get confusing, you were always, it's not as though you're the worst of all possible Charles's. There was only one possible Charles. And that possible Charles was always going to go and fuck his life up to the point where he needed therapy and get therapy and listen to the therapist and thereby somewhat changed your behaviour. So this sounds a little bit like a circular argument, dog. It does a little bit.

It was always going to be. There's no circular arguments. No, but let me just sort of try and explain it a bit more detail. So there's a couple of examples. This is an article from the LA Times, but he's written a new book about all of this. And this guy's a level of scientists where he got one of those MacArthur Genius grants, right? Like Robert M. Sapolsky. Is that a sarcastic genius grant?

Well, he was always going to get it. See, he didn't have a choice. But no, it's one of those ones where they give you a million dollars a year to do whatever you want. Oh, wow. Well, Miranda got them and stuff. So this book's called Determined Science of Life Without Free Will. And so basically what he's saying is, there's a couple of things. The first is that it really puts criminal law into a degree of perspective.

Now, when I studied criminal law years ago, they were trying just a little bit to say that we need to understand that people who commit crimes in some circumstances, that's the result of their upbringing, for instance, people who perpetuate a cycle of abuse when they are abused as a child, then they abuse as adults. And that's not to say that they need to be exonerated or that they're innocent or whatever. It's just to say that we need to understand that criminality has complex causes. But he takes this a whole lot further and basically says that basically anything that we do is that same result of our upbringing, our history and all this kind of stuff.

And so therefore we don't necessarily have a choice. The choice is illusory because if you think of it, we're a machine programmed to do certain things. And so we're going to do those certain things. But then how come, you know, two kids can be brought up in the same broken home? One goes off to be a deadbeat And the other one goes off to be hugely successful Like me Well maybe one of them has

So we call them Verity Firth genes And the other one has Charles Firth genes But no, these are complicated questions Oh I see So there's an answer to every question though Because it's like well The reason is that those two people Were different enough

Given the same inputs Yeah that's right Yeah right okay But I mean the whole thing is it comes down to There is a choice It's a real choice It's not as though you don't have a general choice It's not as though you don't have a genuine choice.

It's just that you'll tend to make the same choice in the same circumstances. There's another example that I want to give where he says, I mean, you can imagine a group of five or six friends going to watch an inspiring documentary. Let's say back in the 90s, they went to see Al Gore's climate. But I thought you said an inspiring documentary. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's say they went and seen inspiring docker about saving rainforest or something, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So one person sees that and decides to change their life and become an environmentalist. Another person decides to become a filmmaker because they thought the images were so incredible. Another one decides to re-enroll in university. and become an academic or something. And the last two decide to become loggers. That's right, to make some money. And then the final one, Charles, is you, and you really regret not going to see Dumb and Dumber,

your favourite movie. But the point that it's making is, yes, that movie was the catalyst, but what it inspired the people to do were the things they were possibly likely to do or tending to do or at some point going to do anyway. This feels like not much of a statement about anything. It's basically saying, well, Things will pan out the way that they pan out.

Yes. You know, it does have a degree of MacArthur Genius grant truism about, doesn't it? Things, the shit that will happen is a shit that's, that happened. The thing is it's to do with perception because a lot of our society is structured around the notion that we do have free will. Yes. We do have genuine choices. And therefore, the success or failure of those choices and what they do, that's something

that we should feel guilty about or proud about. It even comes back to the way that our society functions in terms of money, right? Because people who have an awful lot of money, the idea is that they worked harder or that they were smarter or they did something better, therefore they deserve it. Whereas if the point is that we don't and that it's actually a random lottery of circumstances and genetics, and therefore the people who are total fuck-ups didn't really have an option.

I have noticed that most billionaires seem to also be cocks. Well, maybe that's part of it. Maybe there's a billionaire gene that we'll find someday that makes you an absolute cock. Yes, and then you suddenly just become very acquisitive of money over all else. I mean, being a sociopath, helps, doesn't it? Yes.

Oh, yes. But this has amazing implications for, for instance. Crime. Criminal law. Which we'll get to after this. Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore?

FIS is 100% online so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at FIS.ca. The Chaser Report. With extra whispers. So the thing is, Dom, I can just go and commit a crime. Yes.

And then frowned up with this book that is published. Or just this podcast episode, because you're not going to read the whole book. No, I'm not going to read the whole book. Or just download the audio book for the judge to listen to. Probably the best way. And then go, well, hang on, I'm not responsible for committing this heinous crime. Yeah. Because I'm the product of my genetics and upbringing.

And you can call Robert M. Sapolsky as an attorney for the defence. It goes even more complicated. If you think of a brain as a machine, all that we do is basically the product of our brains, which are essentially machines made of neurons in a way. If you think about it, the neuron is going to react the same way to the same stimulant, the same circumstance.

That's the point that he's making, is that we're basically, if you think of all the different factors and experiences in genetics that have produced our brains, those brains are going to produce the same outcome in the same circumstances with the same set of facts. But the whole point of therapy is to break patterns, is to respond to the same set of circumstances differently.

I've spent so much money being taught that that's the... You know what I meant? But a lot of people, but maybe you have the neuroplasticity to do that. You can break patterns. But some people don't. But some people don't go to therapy. But there are lots of people who just never go to therapy and never improve and never break these patents.

But this argument is basically saying that therapy can't have any impact. This was much funnier last time when we talked about Donald Trump. I'll get a bit angry about this theory. We also brought in Sam Dastiari, which was very entertaining. And Charles' a tendency to go and have Yomcha with him and then injure himself hideously. And the point being, you're always going to do that. Yes, that's true. And in the same manner, when Sam Dastiari, let's just say made some questionable decisions to do with money.

He was always going to do that. He was always going to arguably pedliquence. He was always going to not realise that there were hidden microphones in the garden when he turned off the phone and remove the battery. He's going to get recorded anyway. And therefore, should he be held responsible? This is a thing. So in actual fact, the more malice and forethought that somebody exhibits during the prosecution of a crime

shows the more out of control they were and it wasn't actually to do with them. The analogy here is that it's like being drunk, like being a drunk driver. We generally give people a somewhat lesser sentence if they're under the influence or something. Really? No, I don't think that's true. We hold them more Kabul Buddha. because they're committing an extra crime. I can't remember I studied this many years ago.

I unfortunately, I never needed to know. But if you ever get done for drink driving, get dumb as your lawyer. No, but the point, okay, let's give a better example. So let's say you're having medication for some sort of... Yeah, valiant. Let's say, or you're taking steroids for something, which makes you more aggressive or something. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

And you didn't have any choice. You had to take them. Maybe you took them while you're unconscious in emergency. Or because you want bigger guns. Yes, that's right. And so what you do is not really your fault. And the point he's making is that all these experiences are similarly, similarly the determinant of what we do. Because what are we but a bunch of chemicals flowing around a body?

So when you lock up a murderer, you're punishing someone for having the kind of brain that means that they're a murderer. Which I can kind of go either way. Like, either it's not their fault and you should let them out because that's just mean. Like it's not their fault they're murder or my God, they're a murderer. Lock them up so they don't murder more people. It does sort of trample on, I would say, at least several thousand years of the tradition of individual responsibility. Yes, that's dead. No, we don't need to have that anymore.

Right, okay. Which is very liberating. So it's a bit of a get-out-of-jail-free card. Absolutely. For criminals. Like, does this overturn criminal law? Oh, I think so. Yeah, I think criminal law is finished.

Which means, Charles, we teach out the implication to this. This is fantastic news for Ben Roberts Smith. And I'm surprised. I think when he appeals to this case, we're going to see these sorts of arguments. Oh, yeah. Because previously the argument. argument was, no, no, I'm not a homicidal maniac who killed civilians, whereas now he could say, yes, I'm a war criminal, but I was always going to be a war criminal. And unique circumstances

of my upbringing made me, this war criminal, made me a murderer. Yes. And I can't do anything about it. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Sapolsky. So you just front up to the war crimes tribunal in Geneva. Yeah. And go, uh-uh. My bad, war crime, he's going to war crime. That's what it is, isn't it? Yes. So this is a terribly depressing theory, Dom. But no, but isn't it liberating in a way? Because it just means that if you like me have been berating yourself for not being a better

version of yourself, you know, a fitter, more successful version of yourself. If you just think to you say, why don't I get up at 6am and go to the gym every morning? Because you're the product of being Dom. You were never, I was never going to. There's no version of me where that's possible. I see, this is why you've got an extra spring in your step today. Yeah. Because you've now been...

You've been liberated from your own... For myself. Yes, that's right. In fact, I now see all of my failings as a particular burden that I'm unfortunate enough to carry rather than as my fault. You are always going to be the failure that you are. Yeah, that's right. I was always going to be a disaster.

And so it's liberating in the same way that Nietzsche is liberating. Sure. Life doesn't mean anything. So therefore, you might as well just be happy. anyway, because nothing matters. And it doesn't mean stop trying. It just means try exactly the same amount as you were always going to try. Because what's the point that you can't change it?

I want to see a whole of the self-help books spring up out of the back, off the back of this book. Yeah, I'm thinking we're writing one called meh, whatever's. Be the you that is already you. Be the you that you already are. Yeah, the no step diet plan. Yeah, and so, I mean, it's interesting because we're, you look at someone like Donald Trump, who's currently on multiple criminal trials, right? Like, there's all this question of causation and what did he know?

And I absolutely believe that it was inevitable from the moment Donald Trump ran for president that he would probably win, but that also that once he became president, it was absolutely inevitable given him. And this does make sense. Given the extent of his narcissism, that he was always going to mount a coup that killed people. I mean, this theory does allow for absolute 2020 hindsight. Yes, doesn't it?

Because it's like, well, everything. that happened was always going to happen. And this is the thing that happens with the whole debate that's raged for millennia about free will versus determinism is that you can't know the answer. There's no, you know, in science you're supposed to compare two different

cases. You're supposed to... Yes, but you can't. You have a control. There's no control. There's no other universe unless Marvel's onto something with that multibus. Yeah, you can't test for, well, would he have done this or that? Because the answer is, well, he did whatever he was going to do. There isn't a universe where Ben Robert Smith wasn't a war crew.

A criminal and a murderer. According to the judge, I'm not defaming him. Yeah, as far as we know. At the point of recording this podcast, that's the current judicial position. So there you go. What does this all lead us to? What it leads me to, Charles, is that if we wonder, why do we do this podcast every single day? The answer is we were always going to.

And that we can't stop it if we wanted to, ever. Unless something happens that was always going to make us stop it. So whichever thing we end up doing, it's okay. And I think that that is why everyone, listening should now immediately subscribe to the special premium edition of the Chaser report. Yes, $4. Because you're always going to. That's right.

Don't put it off any longer at Apple Podcasts or at Acast Plus. Did you know, Charles, there are two people who've signed up to the absurdly overpriced subscription? This is the one that's $20 a month. What do you get? Nothing extra. It was very clear that there's no bonus. I think it's the pity payment. Thanks, Mom.

Thanks to those two people. I've got their email addresses, actually. We should send out a regular. email just to the end. Just for those two people. We actually should. We should personally. Yes.

Although maybe they'd just, they'll unsubscribe. Unsubscribe. So do we get the email lists of people who subscribe? Via Acast. If you don't want us to have your email, Apple's your friend for that. We can't get those ones. Good. No, because I was going to say, we should definitely do a premium email thing.

You should get them, you should give them a discount to Warren 2020. Yeah, yeah. Email them all. Okay, yeah. Warren 2023.com to buy tickets. But if you're a subscribe. How do you do it? You have to send them an email.

Have you read it out here? Give them what you can do it. Give them a discount goat anyway if you want to. Oh yeah, Povow. Is it? Yeah. We've got a bit of secret. Don't tell anyone else.

Well, no, I suppose you can tell people. We want to sell more tickets, especially to places, like, all the shitholes. We're not selling very well in. So it's like Bathurst. You've got Gabby Bolt on the show and you can't sell in Bathurst? I know. I know. Well, I think they're shitheads.

I think that's why she's left Bathurst. Oh. And then Cairns. Are you doing a show in Cannes? Central Coast, Gossford. Which normally sells out, but we're just a little bit soft on sales this year. It's just a slight issue of a cost of living crisis, Charles. Yeah, anyway, so that's why we've got this discount code called P-O-V-O, and you get a 20% discount.

The other thing we'd like you to do, if you'd be so kind, is to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. And there have been some very funny and insulting ones that we'll read out a little bit later on, on a different episode. But everyone puts five stars. So it can be as mean as you like as long as you put five stars. Because then we'll know, actually then, the great. thing is about the ones that are really mean with five stars is that we don't know if they're a joke or not. So it might be a joke. Or they might just be, well, because I'm giving them five stars, I can say what I really think. Yes. I sort of suspect, especially there's one at the moment where it's like,

no, he just really hates us, but he gave us five stars. By the way, that should be our episode for tomorrow. We should go through some of the. We should go through some of those. Yeah. So look, maybe you can get yours in if you leave it now at Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening, but you were always going to anyway. So why should we even, why should we thank people if they're always going to Listen. Our gear is from Road, and we're part of the iconoclass network. Catch you next time. If that's what's willed.

I think it's dumb. It's just not even scientific. How does he get a peer-reviewed? It took him 40 years to write this book. Well, he was always going to take more years. But how did he get a peer reviews? It's unfalsifiable. That's a great thing about writing a book rather than a scientific paper.

I see. Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore. FIS is 100% online, so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply, details at fizz.ca.