The Checkup with Doctor Mike - Working With Horrible People In Hollywood | Tony Hale

Episode Date: January 11, 2023

Watch me and Tony play a devious round of Medical Confessions here: https://go.doctormikemedia.com/youtube/TonyHaleMedicalConfessions Tony Hale is a 2-time Emmy winner and brilliant comedic actor known for his work on Arrested Development, VEEP, and countless other shows and movies. In this episode we dove into separating his acting persona from his family persona, his lifelong battle with asthma, and the difficult lives of healthcare workers. Executive Producer and Host: Dr. Mike Varshavski Produced by Dan Owens and Sam Bowers Art by Caroline Weigum CONTACT: [e-mail]

It was practically a one-man show because towards the very end, this other character comes in. But it was me on the stage for like 45 minutes. And every night, I was like, tonight's the night I'm going to have a panic attack in front of a thousand people. I was lucky enough to sit down with D. Tony Hale. Two-time Emmy Award winner, known for his roles in Arrested Development, Veep. We talk about working with really awful people in Hollywood, his anxiety, his really strong connection with asthma and how he is now advocating for finding a cure for the illness. I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you do as well.

Let's get started. V-WOOP. Well, thank you so much for joining. Thank you for having me. Huge fan. Oh, that's nice. No, but seriously, because for me, I started watching Veep late. And when I started watching, your character is the character that I related to most.

Oh, yeah. Great. And I was like, I related to most. Yeah, and I've heard you talk about on other podcasts, how you feel like your life experience got you ready for that role. Tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, I would say not just that role. I would say Arrested Development. I mentioned this on another podcast,

but when I booked Arrested Development, I was so overwhelmed by the business. I had never been on a studio a lot. I was so overwhelmed. And thank God I was playing a character that was completely disassociated and just overwhelmed by everything. And I remember just needing safe spaces

when I came to the business in L.A. and just being like, I don't feel grounded and busted. was never felt safe. And then with Gary, he just, you know, I think just in life, I deal with people pleasing and feeling, feelings that are not my responsibility. Classic codependent stuff. And it's like, that's all Gary was, which is, I think is a really cool thing how God, not to be spiritual about it, but I think how God can use kind of suffering that we go through for good. And it's like a lot of stuff, anxiety.

you know, people pleasing, whatever I dealt with in life, I can bring it in an authentic way in these characters and also through comedy. Do you look into the subject of post-traumatic growth ever? Or have you ever heard the term? No, but whatever you're saying, I'm already I'm like down. Well, we hear the term PTSD very often and it's important to talk about people really struggle with issues related to their traumas. And we see that actually far past PTSD. We see adverse childhood events impact us in our adult lives in ways that we don't even comprehend yet. When I say we, meaning the medical community, doesn't comprehend yet. Because there's been great research and books written like the body keeps the score of how these traumas affect us going on in life.

But on the flip side, which I think should be talked about more often, is how traumas impact us in a way that we grow and we bring benefit to the world, which is exactly what you're talking about. when you're talking about the struggles that you've had and how that can potentially help others down the line. Yeah. I was just watching, I'm sure you've seen Jonah Hill's show with his therapist and how he said, you know, pain, uncertainty and constant work is always a part of life. And the thing is, the challenge, it's always going to be a part of life, but the crossroads of can you use that to benefit yourself and benefit others rather than let it eat you alive. Essentially, as an artist, isn't that what you're always trying to channel? Yeah, totally. I mean, and I have to be, in all honesty, there are things that I have not done because it's

just a little, I remember years ago I was offered this role who was, he was a dentist and he had like, he was like a serial rapist. It was just really dark. And I was like, yeah, I just, I don't want to like, I don't want to, that's just, it's, it's hard. I can, I don't mind playing like evil or something like that, but there's certain things it's, at this point, I just didn't want to go into that world, you know? Do you think that there's truth in that if you play an evil role, it starts taking an impact on your life in real life? I've heard, uh, they talk about, uh, the, the Joker role. Oh. And how that impacted him and I think, I mean, you, I mean, you, you, The fact is you have to open yourself up.

I remember years ago, I was, I did this role on law and order and I, and the character was, um, his daughter was kidnapped. And my daughter was five years old at the time. And so you have to kind of emotionally dive into the impossible, you know, and just be like, what would that be like to in order to get the authenticity and the performance? And so I can see, you know, especially like some of these really, um, like really dark, dark stuff. I don't, not necessarily the Joker.

I mean, that is, that, that is dealing with a lot of mental illness, but I mean, like, kind of into the criminal aspect. Criminal, but like horror stuff and, like, mystical stuff. And I don't know, just like the dark, almost demonic stuff. That's like, eh, I'm not, I just don't want to, I don't want to, like, open that door at all. Because I think there is, obviously we know there's evil in the world. And it's just like stuff like that.

I'm like, I think you've got to be a little careful with that. Sure. So you focus on protecting yourself? I think, yes, but it's also with that said, I think, I mean, I've, the character I play on Mysterious Benedict Society, he's incredibly manipulative. He's, he's, he's been traumatized in his life. He hurts people because he's been hurt, all this kind of stuff. And the fact is, in order to, one thing I learned years ago, I did this movie that was just

not a good movie. I wouldn't even say what the movie was, but I was playing this guy who was like really manipulative and he was kind of entitled and all this kind of stuff. And you, and I remember going to this acting coach and being like, oh, I don't like these people. I don't like this character I'm playing. I don't even like to be around this kind of a character. And she said to me something I've never forgotten. This is a typical actor lesson. She said, you have to find those characteristics within yourself in order to play it authentically. Wow. And the fact is that's absolutely true because if I'm honest, I have been manipulative in my day. I've had moments of entitlement. I've been a bit of a

player. I'm not proud of it, but I've had moments of like that in my life. And you have to resonate with those characteristics because the moment you bring them out of yourself rather than playing an idea of the character, that's when the authenticity comes out. So even something incredibly dark, you have to find points of resonance in that character in order to bring out the authenticity. And then do you feel like by pointing out those instances, they can magnify those traits in you? I think when you are doing that, this sounds very kind of artsy-fartsy, but But I do think, some people think, oh, I'm okay. I can just brush it off.

I think you got to ground yourself in reality. You got to ground yourself in your family. You got to stay true to your community. Because there, when, like, this is a very small example. But when I was playing Buster, I was in such a hyper-sensitive neurotic space all day. I remember coming home and my wife asked me something. And I was like, ew, like I was so reactive, you know, because I was just always in this state of defense. And she was like, all right, let's, let's just, let's take a deep breath.

And I never, I never consider myself a method actor. I don't consider myself, I consider myself pretty, I can easily, I'm okay, I can try to stay boundaries stuff. But when you're in something, when you're reacting at such a heightened state all day long and you're, you're, we don't use every emotion in life all the time where you're like crying and you're reactive. You just can't expect yourself just to do go home and be like hey wow what's dinner what's on you know it's like you have to you got to breathe and kind of take care of yourself that's not surprising that you say that from a medical aspect yeah because when we do functional MRIs where we actually see how blood flow changes in our brains yeah and we let's say know the patterns that emerge when you're scared

yeah or when you're running yeah when we see people in movies running yeah the same areas light up but now I can only imagine as an actor playing a role. Yeah. How much more realistic is it for your brain that you're actually turning into this and experiencing those things? Yeah. And I would say kind of like emotionally, if I'm having to like with my daughter being kidnapped, like really put myself into that, there's, you can't escape that your body is,

your body's thinking what the hell like you're emoting in a way that is so it's real. So it's going to react that way. But say if I am doing something that where I may be scared, I'm, I've read the script. So I'm aware that something, so I can act, but I guess you, I could say I could do the same thing with my daughter leaving, but there's something, I guess what I'm getting at is there is a bit of a detachment that does happen with performance that for me doesn't necessarily happen when I'm watching something. So if like, like, I do not like to watch horror.

I do not like to watch very scary things because. I'll watch CNN and be just as freaked out. You know, I'll be home and wonder, you know, what's around the corner. I mean, I fear-based living is already somewhat,

I would say more of a default from me. I have to work on being present. I have to work on being, it's very easy to go to the anxious fear space. So watching a movie where someone's jumping out at me, I mean, because my wife's like, you're an actor.

Why can't you like detach from that? I'm like, I just, there's something about my body. I just, it freaks me out too much. I would be watching the office. And it was so awkward. I don't mind playing awkward, but like watching it. I'm like, Steve Corral was so awful. I was just like, there's a partner that's like, how does he still have a job?

Why? Why do they, why is this guy still hired? Like, what's going? And I would have to, it would get so awkward. I would just leave the room. My wife is like, you do awkward comedy. for a living. And I'm like, something I, when I watch it, I just can't separate it. It's like full buy it. Yeah, it's so bizarre. Wow. Do you view that as a positive or negative? I would say,

I would say as an actor, probably a positive, because I think I can engage emotionally in things maybe that, you know, someone else might not be able to. And then what about as a human? I struggle with, um, uh, not taking on someone else's feelings. So, it's like I've worked at post a lot of therapy listening and not feeling like I have to take on an issue that is not my responsibility to take on. Wow. That's very powerful, especially if you were going into the medical field. Oh, dude.

We're a therapist. Yeah, exactly. It's just like I cannot even imagine what you guys go through. Now, as a listener or even you, like as an empath or something like I'm engaged, but you know, it takes a lot of work to be there and be present and not feel the need to fix the situation or take care of that person. Yeah. And mental health is a little bit different than medical health in this regard. Yeah. Where sometimes you need to be present, listen without taking action. And sometimes you need to be present and help and take action. Yeah. And knowing the

distinction between the two is truly what makes a good clinician. And that's so tricky. And it probably, I would think, takes a lot of practice. Yeah. Because I'm sure there have been times where you've, it's been hard to shake that coming home. Yeah. Well, because when you're in school, you read a textbook and a textbook is the furthest thing from a human. The textbook says if a person is experiencing feeling A, do treatment B.

And no human comes in and says, well, I have feeling A. Yeah, yeah. So can I get treatment B? It's a lot more complex and intertwined. Also with children. Oh, yeah. Adolescence, going through puberty. Oh, man.

that would be really, really hard. My niece works is a, on the, she's a nurse in the cancer ward, I guess. Oncology ward. And I just have such admiration for what she does and the process that she has to go through to not disengage, but to separate the two. Yeah, because moral injury, which is a term that one of my colleagues. in medicine what because we're seeing record rates of suicide in medicine and people just quitting the field yeah you go in wanting to help people with a lot of virtue and then the system kind of

breaks you down and you realize you're 15 minutes with a patient that really is 10 minutes because of them getting roomed and all that is never enough to accomplish what you set out to accomplish yeah yeah and then you're forced to take shortcuts and then insurance companies destroy you and give you administrative hurdles, and then you lose sight of the goal. So I'm curious if you've ever heard from her that she's struggling with that these days. She, I don't, we have talked about it. She's pretty, she's, maybe, we're working for about five years. So I think it's, she's, she's, she's pretty young. But, um, I think we have talked about it. And there's obviously times where she has to go in the back room and cry and kind of like, but, um, I mean, it's a good

encouragement to talk about it with her again. Because it's that whole, I'm sure the term like compassion fatigue. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, there's a, um, I know, um, I have friends who are missionaries. And they, it's such a real thing where it's like, it is so depleting and, and, and, but also the self-care aspect of is not encouraged enough. Yeah.

Um, and it's actually in our society, kind of seen as a weakness, obviously. Yeah. So to work on that is sometimes harder than to work on the compassion. Well, that's why traditionally all medical people are really bad patients themselves. Yeah. Because they don't take care of themselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, myself included, I probably would be the worst patient if I was hospitalized.

And also just like you know what they're doing. Yeah. I mean, it's a classic thing I'm going to a therapist and if somebody, like, I know the question you're asking. Yeah. You know, it's like my choice is do I give the right answer or do I give the answer you want to hear and all that stuff? yeah that's really tough i actually had an experience when i was uh in medical school myself i lost my mom to cancer while i was in medical school i'm so sorry thank you and i had to be the one that asked the residents to stop doing chest compressions to try and attempt to bring her back because it was

far gone and there was limited benefit at that point and we were waiting to fill out you were with you were with her when she yes like the whole the whole process and witnessing that and then waiting to fill out papers, death certificates, all these things with my father. We had to wait a long period of time. So I went to go check in with the nursing staff why it's taking so long. Can we speed up the process anyway?

And they're all laughing and having a good time in their back room. And it created a learning moment, an anger moment, and an understanding moment, like a growth moment all at the same time. Because you witness people who need that break. because they're this is that was in um memorial sloan kettering hospital which is a cancer hospital in new york so they're experiencing death in the ICU quite often so they can't be the bearers of

everyone's pain all the time because they can't last so they need to have fun in the but hearing that laugh is the last thing you want to hear course so what i took away from that was i can't judge them for it because they need their their time they're doing it in the back it's appropriate And then when I was a resident and I was working in the ICU and I saw my fellow residents laugh somewhere in the vicinity of families that I told them how I felt. And not in a derogatory way, but just sharing my journey. And it created a really good learning opportunity from such a dark time because you got to have that space, but you've got to have the respect.

Yes. Balancing it all is so tricky. And you really can when you're in the middle of it. I would think just easily forget that. Sure. That reminding my wife lost her brother. other, almost 20 years ago, 22 years ago. And that feeling of she remembers waking up the next day and just everything life is, everybody else's life is going on as normal. And there's

that odd like, don't you know what's just happened to me, like that everybody with loss goes through that. Yeah. It's a hard moment. That's why I think as a person, if you as a medical professional could be more of a human and experience things, the more value you could bring to your patients. You know, you talk a lot about, in previous interviews, about how your anxiety and things that you worry in your everyday life have impacted your work, your personal life. Can you share a little bit about how that journey of living with anxiety and that sort of fear that you talk about that even gets brought up when you watch a horror movie or scary movie? Yeah, I, So I've, I mean, I've dealt with anxiety for as long as I can remember, I think. And I would say the, I mean, it's, I think it's obviously a very mixed bag being an artist or an actor where those are your tools. But I think it got to a point in my life where I felt like I was a, I was a victim to my thoughts and my feelings where they were, every thought was so overwhelming. Every feeling was so overwhelming. And I identified with every thought and every thought and every feeling. And I identified with every thought and every feeling. And I, and I felt. And I felt. And I was a victim. And I was a victim. And I was a victim. And I. And I was. And I

I just felt like I was drowning. I was like, I can't. This is probably, I would say this is probably like 12 years ago. And I just kind of, I hit a real wall. And I started to go to this therapist who did cognitive behavioral therapy. And this whole concept of just being more of an observer of your thoughts and your feelings rather than identifying with every single one, was just something I had not thought about. And he really picked, he really kind of put it in language that I think was so intelligent that he, in the language that I would know, he would say,

it's like you're watching your feelings and emotions on a movie screen. And even as I just said that I identified too much with movies and TVs, but, or he would even say it's like you're watching your thoughts and your feelings like cars on a highway. And you would just say,

like if I had a thought that my real daughter was going to get kidnapped or something like that, I used to just be like, oh, gosh, I would go into this just narrative and what if narrative in my body would start to react, like, how would I react and all this kind of stuff? And he's like, you know what? Let's start going like, oh, yeah, there's that thought. And you just, and there it goes. Oh, and there's that feeling.

And two years ago, I did this play called Wakey Wakey and in San Francisco. And it was practically one-man show because towards the very end, this other character comes in, but it was me on the stage for like 45 minutes. And every night, I was like, tonight's the night I'm going to have a panic attack in front of a thousand people. And I just, every single night. And I remember talking about the therapist about this. And I also remember Bill Hater talking about his anxiety like this. But when those anxious feelings came up, something I never, ever did. And I'm just so grateful that I've had the opportunity to learn this.

But I never did this. And when those anxious feelings come out and be like, you're going to have a panic attack, you're going to lose your shit. You know, this is all going down, all this kind of stuff. what I used to do is I okay I got this let's go and he says let's turn to that voice and say hey I really appreciate you being here I know you're trying to protect me

and I really thank you for it I'm going to go do the play I'll be back but I want to tell you that I really appreciate you being here because I know you're trying to help me and I did that every night and it just took the air out of the balloon and it dissipated that anxiety

because I've never faced my anxiety with compassion I've only faced it with like trying to cut off a limb of my body. Yeah. And just being like, God, just keep going, keep going. And there is some, there is some validity to keep walking. Sure. By far. Like, there's this, there is this female, there's this preacher named Joyce Myers. And I'll never forget, she was saying, you know, many times we always think we've got to be in a place of peace and joy to like take a step or strength. And she's like, no, many times you are scared to death. And she said, you just got to do it afraid, do it afraid. And so there is a lot of validity that like, you know what, whatever you feel

just keep walking. But there's a lot of also giving compassion to those feelings that I was not doing for years, you know. I think it's the difference between the short term fear and the long term approaches you have to the fear. So in the moment, maybe it's worth taking that step and then building the motivation of taking that first step. Yeah. But then long term, you have to give yourself compassion. Otherwise, that's where burnout comes from. Yeah, totally. And it's just just a and crazy-ass thoughts and feelings come through our body. I mean, it's crazy. And, and you can't, it's also the thing. I think it was Chelsea Handler saying once, I was listening to someone, she said, you know, just because you have jealous feelings, that doesn't mean you're a

jealous person. And it's, I just think stuff like that is so powerful because like, if I have these feelings, it's like, oh, God, who am I to feel like that? Who am I to think that? It's just a feeling. Yeah. it's just a thought that doesn't identify who you are it's just those things come and go they're not who you are and this is i'm very uh pro evidence based medicine yeah so meaning like everything we recommend has to be with some kind of level of proof of why we recommend it um which is why i'm so against a lot of these miracle cure all potion supplements all this stuff yeah yeah um there's evidence based approaches to mental health where if we have a patient coming in and we ask them about

Have you ever had thoughts of harming yourself or others? As a medical student, at times you're afraid to ask that question because you say, what if I'm implanting that thought in their head? When the evidence shows the opposite. By asking the question, you're decreasing the likelihood that that person will not just think about it, but we'll go through with it because you're now creating some strategies, some mitigation strategies. You're also bringing in to the light, man.

Yeah. Like isolation, that's when it's going to fester and blow up. you're bringing it out there there's just that's so much power to speaking it out and it's also not a bad thing to think about things yeah yeah like thoughts themselves are not bad thoughts like a medical student usually will go into a room before me uh when i'm working with them to see a patient and they would say oh the patient mentioned that they did think about suicide well the question is what did they think about did they formulate a plan did they say the reasons why they're not going through with it was this a passing thought all these things are important because they could be just passing thoughts, thinking about our own mortality could be a normal thing for a person. And for someone else, it could be a sign of we need to create a crisis management plan. And I think that sort of nuance is important to bring out. And that's what you're doing with your strategies when you're working on your play. And I think it's so powerful for those people to come across other people. They're like, yeah, I've had those thoughts. Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, when life gets hard and you're just like, oh, what is,

How long is this going to take? You know, it's just like, and for that person who doesn't have it, but it's just a fleeting thought, what a gift to them to hear that. They're not crazy. How bad is it to feel, oh, I've had this thought of, is the world better off without me? Now that I thought that, that means I'm really going into it. And now it's a cycle and you're falling down into a really dark place.

Yeah. When if you took your strategy of, oh, no, I'm exploring options. I'm a human. Like, what does that mean about me? Who am I to think that? Exactly. Well, you know. It becomes judgmental.

Yeah, let's become an observer rather than kind of a judge, the judger. Isn't it ironic in a society where it looks like media really hems up that we're all judgmental of each other? We're probably most judgmental of ourselves. Oh, 100%. And it's the same thing of like speaking out of pain. You know, like we, we, so someone, this is like, I've worked with, well, I won't say that, but like when people are so awful sometimes. and you're just and you're just like there is a part of me that what like where does that come from

yeah i mean you must pain and you must really not like that yourself that you're working out of this space how do you not use that that's not the term i want to ask how do you reconcile that someone could be acting very mean very badly towards you or others yeah and you see that they have pain, and that's why they're doing that. Do you excuse them for their actions? That's a tough question, because I would love, as I older I get, I would love to have compassion in that situation, because what I wanted to do is there was a producer I worked with years ago, who was just a douche, and I wanted so bad to go up to them and just go,

hey, man, we're all going to die, and your legacy is that you were a douche. And that's a bummer. Yeah. That's a bummer. That's your legacy. That's a bummer. what I want to do is to maybe be a person that oh you know what actually is a great example of this not to self-promote but when I did forky on toy story there was a character in that movie which is one of the most powerful messages I think in I've seen in these animated movies but there was a character named gabby gabby and she was like this dark evil doll in this antique store and she was quote the villain of the movie and Christina Hendricks voiced her just so well.

And Forky, I played a character who was new to this world. He had no understanding. He thought he came here to help people eat chili and go to the trash. That's it. He doesn't even know why he's alive. And so he has just a ton of questions. And he's kind of an open book. And he's like, you know, what's going on?

And he meets this evil antique doll. And everybody else is kind of like, ooh, Gabby Gabby. But Forky's just like, I think she's got really pretty hair. And so he just kind of starts brushing her hair and kind of, He's a little freaked out, maybe a little bit somewhere, but at most part, he just kind of starts asking your questions, like, you know, and hearing about her life and they developed this friendship.

Come to find out, she was left by a little girl and wants to find another little kid to pick her up. And you learn about her trauma because Forky didn't label her. Forky didn't come in and judge her. Forky didn't know to do that. And then she has restoration in the end. And I think that's probably in our society, we do not allow for people to have restoration many times because it all comes from pain.

And I would love to, it sounds cheesy, but I would love to be a forky to someone rather than be like, hey, dude, your legacy is that you're a douche, but rather than be like, okay, maybe I'll show some love, even though they're given out something different. That's a hard. It's really hard. Yeah. And I think the term toxic masculinity comes up here. I also feel currently we're probably misusing the term and using it as a catch-all for every

negative thing that happens, maybe even using it in terms of things that could be positive. But when men traditionally act out, a lot of times it's coming as a result of depressive symptoms or major depressive disorder full on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because what we've come to realize is how we traditionally studied depression was not accurate. Initially, we thought it was an illness that predominantly affected. women, which is totally untrue.

And all the symptoms that we attributed to it were described by female patients, just like how our definition of symptoms of a heart attack come from predominantly white men. So women are misdiagnosed with heart attacks all the time because they don't have the same symptoms as men. They have slightly different symptoms. So with depression, men experience it differently because they tend to act out. They tend to start abusing their partners. They tend to start abusing substances, gambling heavily, over thinking about performance at work.

And what we fail to realize is that asshole at our job probably is struggling the most and needs the most help. But at the same time, I don't know how to solve that situation, not as a doctor, but as a person in that community. Because if you're being affected by this asshole, how do you turn the other cheek and say, oh, I know you're struggling when I'm struggling myself. Yeah, and it's not to sound super spiritual, but I, there have been people like that in my life that I genuinely walk into and I go, I do not, I so dislike this person that I don't know how and I, I've surrendered it up to God. Like I do, I think there's a lot of power in saying, I can't, I don't, I need you to give me this. And it is wild how the heart will turn. I think in that surrender.

You've had experiences where you've had a prototypical asshole that you approached with compassion? Not that producer, which I wish I did. But there have been other people that God talks, there's a, again, I'm sounding very spiritual, but there's a scripture that says, I will give you eyes to see and years to hear. And there have been situations in my life where someone has driven me so crazy and I've asked God, I'm like, I don't know, I cannot do this. And I surrender to you. And he, there's a new eyes and a new ears for that person.

Wow. Yeah. So. And it's like I, and I, I can't explain it. But it's just one of those things. And that's not an overnight thing. It's not like a miraculous, like, but over time there's, you see, you see doors to pain. You see doors to, or like, you'll see a rant, I'll see a random act that they did.

that's contrary to maybe how people see them or something like that. Well, that all comes back to probably your learnings within CBT, that labeling folks is something we do that actually is up harming us. Totally. Because no one person is all asshole or all good or all bad. You know, even people that have committed atrocious crimes may be great to their pets or their family members. And there's a lot of power in finding out someone's history.

because I recently I met this person was at someone's birthday party and they kind of like rubbed me the wrong way I was like oh that's interesting and I talked to my friend about it I was like that was interesting

and then she told me about their history new eyes just new eyes on their situation that was not the situation I was talking about it but it does give you new eyes when you hear about their home life just like how they were just like raised

I will. I mean, it just was rough. And it's like, well, of course they're going to act. Like, wow, you have like an elevated form of gossip where you're not talking badly about others behind their backs. You're giving sort of context. You're saying a highlight reel today. I was going to say, because this is, this is really powerful stuff. Most people are like, oh, douchebag. You're like, douchebag, bye. Well, there have been many do. There's, I can, off the top my head, be like, mm, that's, that would take a lot of supernatural power to love. Well, look, the, the reality. of that statement, the accuracy of the statement that if you ask God for, and I'm not even

spiritual saying, that if you ask God for patience, they give you a crying child that refuses to stop crying, right? Or whatever difficult moment that requires patience. Totally. I'm very curious because I've always, I'm always fascinated because you guys, I do think a hospital is one of the most spiritual places. Interesting. Because it's a portal out of death and it's a portal into life. And what you guys face with is so raw. And it's also so, because we as a society, you know, like miracles, for instance,

are like, oh, that sounds too supernatural. But a woman giving birth is wild. It's wild. Yeah, I've delivered 30 plus babies. Dude, that is wild. And it's like someone dying and leap. I mean, it's so wild. I'm curious how, as a non-spiritual person, to me, that's fascinating, like, how you kind of

look at that. I'm hyper-practical. Yeah, sure. So I'm strictly what's concrete, what's in front of me solving the next issue. And I think that's how most people end up dealing with it. Yeah, sure. Which I get. I mean, that's life, too, of like, this is so crazy.

We just got to keep going. Because it's like one foot in front of the other aspect, especially in your, training where maybe you have people that are mean to you. And traditionally in medical education, it's been kind of like a hazing, bullying environment. Interesting. Interesting. Where like when you would go on your surgical rotation as a med student, there's a process called pimping where they give you impossible questions and berate you when you don't know the answers. Like you'll be in a general surgery rotation and the surgeon will say what's the rarest form of pancreatitis or rare cause of pancreatitis and it's like scorpion sting but unless you read the book inside

and out memorized facts that are utterly useless yeah for the majority of your life as a physician you get wrong and then you get laughed at because i'll tell you what people need more of is shame okay not to give shame you mean to experience no it's just like that's the life last thing an aspiring doctor needs is more, I mean, our shame closet is full. That's why I'm always fascinated since you brought up hazing, that the whole fraternity sorority system happens at the freshman year in college when you're your most vulnerable, most freaked out, oh, well, let's put like more fear and shame in them. Yeah. It's like, that's the time they need nurturing and guidance, you know? It's funny because whenever I read articles about something terrible happening with hazing,

You see the fraternities and sororities say, well, you know, the fact that I went through this difficult process means that this is worthwhile to me. And this is where I derive the value of being a part of this member group. And I'm like, there's no other way that can make this hard other than hazing. It's wild, it really is a wild time to be doing that, I think, first. Because it's your first time out of your house with your family. You know, anyways. No, it's terrible.

and I'm reading a great book right now. Let's take it down today. Let's solve it. Because I'm reading a great book right now. I think it's called Do Hard Things. And they talk about how in collegiate sports, which I know you're not a fan of, even though you grew up in the South, where everyone was. Yes, yes, yes. They push. I enjoy watching them. I think it's fun to watch. Okay, fair. You know, hit each other. That's cool. I think it's fun. I like a tailgate. Okay, yeah. Hanging out friends. Yeah. The way that we instilled in our coaches to toughen everyone up, not give them water, work harder until they break down is the way to develop talent. And they got that from watching Navy SEAL tryouts. Wow.

But Navy SEAL tryouts are not meant to nurture and develop talent. No. They're meant to weed out. They'll lead people who can survive these ridiculous moments. And then they begin the nurture process for them. Wow. So that's where the coaches have gotten it wrong. I do.

And it's amazing like the movies or the stories you hear where you have more of a nurturing coach, everybody is like, oh, you see the power. Yes. Man, that's good. But that's not high. Like, it's highlighted in Disney movies, not enough. What's the name of the book? Do hard things. I think I have it here in my auto.

Because that's interesting. You say that because when we were raising our daughter, we were always, we always tried to, rather than saying, you're so good at this. You're so good at this. You're so good at this. A lot of this is probably paranoid parenting, but we say you do hard things really well. Wow.

Because it was there was something we had heard. And I think it's true of like if you say, oh, you're such a good that you're so good at this. It's almost like there's a pressure of, I have to maintain that. Whatever label I'm given are I have to maintain that. rather than just in general handling hard life, you know. Sure.

The reality, and this is going to come off maybe antithetical to how you've been raising your children, I feel like we put a lot of effort in trying to get it right. Yeah. And the reality is, science doesn't know. Yeah. We know certain things are bad. We know that if your children experience. horrendous traumas over and over again, there's going to be adverse events throughout the rest of

their life, physically, mentally, et cetera. But we don't know what are the correct things to say to the correct child at the correct time. Totally. So I see the effects that a lot of these parental books and parental videos have on my patients who are parents and how they think that they need to do this thing. And if they don't do it at this trimester or this. And I'm like, I promise you don't need to feed your child if you feed your child every six hours instead of four hours a few nights in a row it's going to be great yeah it's it's all going to be great yeah and by the way what a gift you're giving them because there is so much fear-based thinking and right oh yeah children like it is it is constant of like if i do this this and it's a it's giving us way too much

power okay yeah you know yeah because like you're right like they're going it's the even even having a child I remember before we had our daughter, somebody took us through Babies or Us, that story. I was like, he did this, this, this, and this. I had a panic attack when I left. Because I was like, why there are people drop baby. I mean, like, this has been happening for generations. Do I need 50 things, you know, and we don't.

It's a lot of its fear base. Yeah. I mean, media, marketing. Yeah. That's why, you know, all these miracle cure products, they prey on your insecurities and fears. You're going to have people show up your door from like the baby industry. Oh, they take the,

They basically do. They're like, oh, he doesn't understand. Like, this is Baby Einstein or whatever these things. And it's like, I still have yet to see the next Einstein. And baby Einstein's been out for a long time. So I don't know. We watched it. It was, and they're making, they literally will, like, place a pencil on a table.

And then they take the pencil and then they put a ball. And this is my daughter, just transfixed. I'm like, that's all they're doing and making billions. Yes. It's great. Because I grew up in Brooklyn as an immigrant coming from Russia when I was six years old, living on welfare. Wow.

And the things that I was doing was not educational. It was not smart. It was not safe. My dad was going through medical school a second time in a new language. Wow. My mom was trying to provide for my family. And I became a doctor that is very functional and helpful to humans. So like the idea of that you need to take a specific route for success is a little bit,

like you said, giving us a little bit too much credit and power probably. Can I, do you mind me asking a question? Please. Do you, I'm just curious, when it comes to your mom passing, how do you, it's been five years, you said. It's been longer, 12. 12. Is it, in terms of, I'm asking this because when my wife's brother died and I've had friends,

there's a lot of comfort in spiritually. for us to see them again. Do you come from a space of you think you'll ever see her again? No. I was not raised with religion. My father is Jewish. Mother was Russian Catholic. Neither of them practiced.

Specifically, my father never practiced because in Russia there was a tremendous sense of anti-Semitism. Of course. I mean, the church has done horrendous things in God's name. Religion in general has created some great moments and some... Ironically, Jesus' teaching is like love, joy, peace, pain. The exact opposite of what he was teaching, but go ahead. Well, that's humans trying to do the things and we're imperfect.

It's like the same thing with raising children, right? Yes, yes, yes. You could give all the great instructions you want. That doesn't mean that they're all going to get followed. Totally. I just think that's... I really think that's... I wouldn't say admirable.

it is admirable. It's almost like when I meet an atheist, for instance, I have a lot of respect because I think it takes a lot of faith to be an atheist. Oh, interesting. You know, I think waking up and I, this is not, I don't come from the place, I genuinely mean this. Yeah. Waking up and living your life as though it is, nothing is out there. I think that's, I'm just, I'm on awe of it. And I think it takes a lot of faith to do that, you know? I completely get what you're saying. Yeah. And it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. And like day to day, I don't think about it, but I could see how, and I see it in my patients who have religion or spirituality, how much weight comes off their shoulders when they know that there's something bigger than them out there. And I've envied

the feelings that they have and the peace that they get from these certain things and the community that they have around them. So I see all the positives. Yeah. And like a true, doctor, I see the pros and cons of everything. Of course. Of course. Which is like, yeah, and a lot of people don't take the opportunity to look at the pros and cons, because I think even in faith, if you don't have times of questioning, if you don't have times of looking at this, you're doing yourself a disservice. Yeah. You know, because it's not facing things honestly. That's true. And when we're facing issues that affect our mental health, we start seeing how that starts translating into our physical health. I know you've been very vocal about your support for

those suffering with asthma. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, tell me about that. Yeah, so I've had asthma since as long as I can remember. And I mean, you've worked with asthma patients so much, and it's, it's so terrified. I mean, it's gotten so much better. But when I was a kid, I was in and out of the hospital. And all of a sudden, you're breathing through a strong. Oh, you feel like your life source is being taken away from you. It's horrendous feeling. And it's also that feeling of like, does anybody else, does it, do you realize what's happening here?

I can't breathe. I mean, it's terrifying. Did your friends judge you when you were experiencing attacks? Because I've heard patients describe that. I think, I wouldn't say judge. I would say you were put into a category of. Less than Tony's, yeah, Tony's sits off at the side because he's got asthma or like maybe kind of, that's, I think a lot of the stereotypes.

tip of like nerd holding the inhaler came from. It's like the weakling with the asthma. That was that there was an association there, which is frustrating because, you know, there's many athletes who have asthma and all that kind of stuff. But all that to say, yeah, I started working with AstraZeneca about because there's a, this campaign that we've been doing called asthma behaving badly and dealing with eocinophilic asthma, which you can get a blood test to see if you have a larger number of eocinophils that can be affecting your asthma. And these were things that I never had as a kid. And also my thing is what I so appreciate about what they're doing, like anything,

is just when the more they speak about it, when asthma patients feel seen. Because when I was growing up with asthma, it really was like, is anybody else, what the hell is happening to my body? And I, and oh, this is why Goonies is by far one of my favorite movies because the lead character had an asthmatic inhaler. And I remember seeing him and being like, I had never seen. I was just like, he's got asthma. I've got asthma. And he's like a kid my age and he's the lead of this movie and holy shit. Like I never saw that because you feel seen. And so like this campaign just making people feel more seen about it. Yeah. It's tough because we A, don't see that.

B, we don't hear enough of the Olympic athletes that are crushing it despite the fact that they have, or with the fact that they have exercise induced asthma, when I have patients come in that have exercise induced asthma, they think I'm going to tell them to stop exercising when it's the exact opposite feedback that I oftentimes give them. And when it comes to eosinophilic predominant asthma, we have to make sure that we as doctors are thinking about that. Because in severe cases of asthma, this could be a reason why it's happening and there's treatment options available. Yeah, and I'd never even heard that. So just like that, and the blood test is available and all that stuff.

So it's, it's exciting, much like what you're doing. Because clearly I'm a doctor. No, I'm not a doctor. But like it's, I don't know, when you, when I resonate with it and I meet an asthma patient, it's like we're in the same tribe. Did you, when you were younger, did you have the emergency inhaler and a controller inhaler that you would take daily? I mainly just had the albuterol, the emergency inhaler.

And then when I would have to go to the hospital, they would do a treatment. The breathing treatment. Yeah. Because what I find is in a lot of my patients who have been diagnosed with asthma, they've been somewhat mismanaged in that there's ways to prevent asthma attacks by taking certain medications. Totally. And the last thing I want people to do, because with asthma, we want to decrease hospitalizations.

We want to decrease the need to get intubated because those are the worst types of situations for asthmatic patients. And I don't know how you feel about that. I feel like if I had asthma, that would be my biggest fear as a child, especially. Oh, it's a huge fear, but what you said is so powerful because it's so individual.

Like, it's like working with a doctor to get a treatment plan for yourself. Yep. Because, I mean, there's that, it's so easy to just do kind of a blanket equation for everything. There's just no blanket equation for each person. Yeah.

There has to be an asthma treatment plan, step up plan, Do you have a good relationship with a primary care doctor? I do. I will say the older I've gotten, my asthma is really in a good space. Which happens? Oh, it does happen. Yeah.

Because I've heard it kind of also adult onset. My brother has adult onset. Yes, there is adult onset. The ones that you develop as a child, sometimes you can grow out of. Yeah. Because I've also, like a lot of mine was allergy induced. And so. So you had eczema as well?

Yeah, I had eczema as well. I love talking to a doctor who sees me. Yes, I had the eczema. I had my poor brother, we'd be in a room, and all he would hear us just like, and me just scratching under my, they put socks on my hands, all this kind of stuff. But it was eczema and then the nose.

I forget what I was saying. Oh, but the allergies, working with an allergist to get allergy shots and stuff made the difference. And did you find what your triggers were? Yeah, my triggers are. are definitely, they were these things. And then it's gotten better, but a lot of cat dog.

Also, my parents, we would always have dogs and not hyperallergenic dogs. And then one would die. And I'd be like, oh, I can breathe. And they're like, we got a new dog. And I was like, do my parents want me to die? They were trying to train you out of the allergy. It was like, tough love.

At least they didn't get cats. But that and then dust and kind of the spring allergies and stuff. You know, some people even have cockroach allergy. I've heard this. Yeah. And that's like a common thing we test. Mold was a big one too for me.

For sure. Because that's a lot of times you could tell those things without doing testing just by getting a good history of finding out during which times of year, especially in an area like New York where you have four seasons. Yeah. So if you're like indoors a lot and you're getting allergies, well, that kind of makes sense versus, oh, it's pollen time, springtime. That's the only time I get these symptoms or whether it's allergy or asthma related.

Totally. like they getting like do we need to get this vent system do we like what should we move here like but it's also again it's sometimes it's a crapshoot you got to like and that's why those I think those testings are pretty great yeah they're really cool yeah um all right so that's cool that you have a good relationship is there anything you do um with your health that you think is unique like do you follow a certain ritual do you take some sort of supplement that is unusual will. I did get into a lot of, I know you're not a fan of, no, but there's some things that can be good. The Chinese herbs. Okay. What about them? They, I think, like the homeopathy and stuff.

And it was in addition, because I, it's, for me, it's the partnership of the natural and, well, medicine is natural, but it's the kind of homeopathy and modern medicine. Okay. What really worked for me. Um, because it was just for me, modern, but like combining the two was a big, big help for me. And also kind of for me, like, finding out what those allergies were of what like food, sometimes food stuff made a big difference. So like lifestyle factors were a big one for you. Okay, cool. Sam, should we do our lightning round?

Yes. Okay. We have a lightning round. Is that a battery on the back of your? Yeah. Does that, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not giving you shame. You don't need any more shame in your closet, Dave. There's a lot of shame.

Does that, wait, do you attach that like a magnet? It's a magnet, yeah. Okay. Is that on a swag bag that I'm going to get when I'm leaving? Actually, I got this in a swag bag from Nat Geo. No. Last week, yeah. Dude, see, that attaches to your phone.

Yeah, and Dan has one too. Oh, that's nice. He was telling me to get it. I was like, oh, but look, Nat Geo is on top. Sorry, we don't have the budget. You can't have a case, though, can you? And I've never had a case. Oh, you're not a word to drop it.

No. Okay. I'm worried. There's a confidence I'm working with here. I'm very impressed by you. You know what? It's what in medicine, when you see so much, you kind of stop worrying. Dude.

Because you're like, man. But then it becomes problematic and you turn into my dad who then, like, I would come to him like, dad, this hurts. I don't care. You're fine. That's the Russian father mentality. Totally, totally, totally. That's a gift. Okay, here we go.

I can tell you every scenario that's about to happen. That's good. So that's a talent on a time. That's all right. No, because every one of those situations comes with pros and cons. The challenge, this is something interesting that I think one of the challenges, because when anxiety does live in the what if, obviously a lot, and you create the scenarios, the double whammy is being an artist where your creative imagination is heightened.

So I, when I have been your character, I have to envision a history of that character and as though I was in that history. So my what ifs can be very realistic. You know, I actually wanted to point this out earlier. The artist's mind is actually really interesting. So messed up. Yes, but in a way that like is unique and cool to me as a scientist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because you have to create something that's not there. Yeah. And what medical condition, psychiatrically speaking, do you think create something that's not there? Hallucination. Yeah, schizophrenia, typically speaking. So there's a, there's an existence there where artists have higher rates. of schizophrenia. And we realize that the border between creating something that's not...

Well, now I have something else to worry about when I left. I know. This is... You're supposed to be calm with this information. I'm kidding. But yeah, like that's so interesting. That's how it works. Yeah, it really, really breaks my heart.

This is a random thing, but homelessness is there is so much schizophrenia on the streets. And it's just, oh, it breaks my heart so much. Our mental health care system sucks. Yeah. I'll be the first to admit it. Yeah. So on that side note, more shame. Number one.

Oh, this is a lighting round. This is the lighting round. This is going to be fun. Are those bees on the bottom of your shoe? Oh, I don't know. They are bees. Because this is like a hive on the side of your shoe, and those are bees. I love bees.

I'll notice the specifics. Go bees. I remember you had a character on your. Oh, yeah. I did it. did a children's book called Archibald's next big thing. And it talks about being present. And this little character, Archibald, gets a card in the mail that says, your big thing is here. And he's like, where? And he goes on all these adventures. But

every time he's on an adventure, he's like, I got to get to the next big thing. And this B comes along. It's like, got to just be, man. You got to just be. And then he realizes that the card is right. Your big thing is here. My big thing is talking to you right now. That's my big thing. Made me a little emotional. Good. Thank you. Let's get him crying. okay what's one thing your body does that not everybody else's body does what does my body do that not everybody's body does probably worry about how i'm sounding anytime i'm talking okay so you have an editor i have an editor because when my um with asthma my voice as an actor will be back

here. And like, for instance, when I did Forky, he's up here. He's a little more in the nose. But my everyday voice tends to be here. And because it's always a challenge to bring it up front. Wow. So I'll always be thinking. And a lot of it had to do with this douchebag actor teacher. It was like, you got no resonance. And it's just stuck with me. Because words are powerful, guys. Words are powerful. Well, that's post-traumatic growth. You're thinking about it. Thank you. What's one thing you would do if I as a doctor could guarantee you, wouldn't suffer any medical consequences. I would like to stand on a cliff without any fear.

And no support. And no support. Wow. Yeah. Because heights are, I'm always impressed that someone can just like do that. And I'm just like, it's just terrifying to me. I agree. I have the same fear.

So I can relate. have you ever almost died i almost die uh i don't think so okay cut two this afternoon i leave here you know we were doing a podcast and i asked the question and then it was done how would your administration on veep handle the covid 19 pandemic oh my god by far selina would have herself vaccinated and not tell anybody about it That's very true. Yeah. And she would have every booster.

Every booster. Before there was even the first one. She would get it on the deal. And not tell us all. Okay, fair. Yeah. Not even her daughter. She wouldn't even give it to her.

Not even Gary. What do you mean? You would administer her problem. That's true. I would administer it. But there would only be enough for her. True. Which one of the characters you've played would live the longest life?

Um, I would say, you. I would say Archibald, that cartoon, because he sees the best in everyone and the best in every situation. I think that brings a lot of health to your life. Truth. Do you have a guilty pleasure that you spend too much money on? Um, okay. Well, I would say my guilty pressure is I like a cruise ship. Like, you want to purchase a cruise ship? No, I like cruises. Going on cruises.

Just because it feels free. Okay. And it's like a floating all you can eat buffet today. Well, that's hilarious because it's like the opposite of free. It's almost like a floating jail because you can't get off of it. I love it. I love it. I love it.

I love being here to the water. But I don't go on cruises much, but I'd love the idea. What I spend a lot of money on, I would say, it's a weird, like, it's a weird imbalance of food. and then if we're buying something that's like the same amount I'm like I'm like oh do we do we need to buy when in actuality that food is going to go right through my system and then this thing we're going to have for five years you know what I'm saying yeah so that imbalance is odd fair okay yeah we did it we did it man