The Chris Cuomo Project - Bill Richardson, Social Media

Episode Date: August 30, 2022

In this week’s episode of The Chris Cuomo Project, Chris shares why it’s important for Free Agents to keep an open mind and be willing to listen to people they disagree with.  Bill Richardson, former New Mexico governor and former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N., speaks with Chris about the current state of the Democratic Party and U.S. politics, as well as the negotiations surrounding Brittney Griner’s imprisonment in Russia.  Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. First, I want to thank all of you out there, free agents, responding to the show, subscribing, spreading the word. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you for getting the free agent merch. You'll see where to get it, subscribing, spreading the word. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you for getting the free agent merch. You'll see where to get it. We'll put the link up for you. When I get enough money in there where I like what's going on, we're going to crowdsource where to send money, worthy causes.

That's why I'm doing the free agent merch in the first place. So thank you very much. Now, today's episode should be titled, The Truth Hurts. Okay? Why is the music hard on the project? Why is the picture of my face not all shiny and smiley? Because this is serious business.

And the truth hurts. And here's the truth. Many of you think you are free agents. But you're not. You like how it sounds. Of course I'm free. No one controls me it may be subconscious it may be conditioning it may be because you believe you are fighting the

good fight and because of that you must oppose these other guys and they have to be held off and he or she they are crazy so we must we must oppose. I cannot listen. I cannot be part of anything that is that offensive. Now, I think that is a very bad position, disposition, and absolutely position to hold, especially in politics. A free agent has to have an open mind and an open heart and be willing to listen to people they disagree with. Okay. Now, if you say, yes, I still check those boxes. Okay. Then walk down this road with me. Okay. We have to change the game. The game, the way it is, plays to positions of power and to opposites. And that's why there is so little progress. That is the whole reason why I say that the two-party system is broken. Now, yes, you could have two better parties that work together and there's an idea of

comedy, C-O-M-I-T-Y, instead of comedy, C-O-M-E-D-Y, in terms of how they treat one another. But it doesn't happen. That's why I believe more answers lead us to more parties. That's why I believe you got to start with term limits, which is a shame campaign on Congress because they have to put them in place and they are why you don't have them. Ranked choice voting would be great on the federal level, but certainly state local level makes a difference. on the federal level, but certainly state, local level makes a difference. I believe in a shame campaign to get different states who are purple, okay, more and more to apportion their electors. I think we should be talking about these things a lot if we want things to get better. Now, I believe there are many who don't want them to get better. And not just the people in suits and ties who are elected to Congress and the big shots and the pundits. It's too many of us.

If you want to change the game, you have to see the game and have the strength of character and conviction to own your role in it. Or even if that role is allowing it to be played before you for your entertainment. Now, social media. or even if that role is allowing it to be played before you for your entertainment. Now, social media. This is the crucible of controversy.

I'm not anti-social media, but more is not always better, okay? The temple of the toxic twosome when it comes to politics has to be Twitter. It is a crucible of controversy. It's the only thing that sells there. And I have to tell you, Twitter is not us. It is not America. It is not normal. Okay. How do we know? I mean, look, obviously it doesn't pass the smell test, right? I mean, everything on it is hysterical, okay? But we know this.

Harvard did a study, okay? Now, if you're out there, Harvard is not an easy, oh, that place, I don't believe them. It's not an easy university to dismiss, okay? 80% of Democrats, how do they self-describe? Oh, well, as extreme left, right? 80%, sure, look at Twitter. Nope.

Oh, well, it's extreme left, right? 80%? Sure. Look at Twitter. Nope. 80% center underscore left. Why? Because people want reasonable. They want progress. Haven't you noticed that we just talk left and right now? How often do we talk Democrat, Republican. Be honest. When you watch politics on television, you listen to podcasts, you listen to radio, however you consume online, left and right, far left, far right. When did that happen? It's become this gradual erosion of progress. Instead, it is now about opposition, about opposites, about us and them. And on Twitter, it lives in full effect. Okay. Now here's the problem. I'm weak. And even though I want to change the game, I am in the game. And I sometimes will take my temperature by putting my hand on the hottest part of the stove, which is Twitter. I would love to say, forget it. I'm never going to talk about Twitter. I'm not going to be on Twitter. I have to. First of all, I want to be part of this exchange. I want to search for dialogue. I want to talk to people who don't agree. And people say, why are you talking to this person?

Why are you giving them attention? That's the mistake. Now, you don't fan every flame. If somebody is a hater, it's hateful rhetoric. It's bigot. It's prejudice. I don't give them a platform. I wouldn't do that unless they are a bigot who has been endorsed by somebody in a position of power. Then I have to have that person on show that they are in fact a bigot and that this is who, in the case of that whack job that was running for a senator in Virginia who was endorsed by then President Donald Trump, look who he just endorsed. That's why you do it.

And then you dismiss them because their ideas do not deserve a fair hearing. They don't make anything better. Okay? Either you don't accept hate or you do. There's no nuance. Now, two examples of how we have to change the game, okay? One comes from social media. Paul Manafort.

A lot of people wanted to watch and listen, but not for the right reasons. The hate parade was long and thick. I get it. I get it. I get it. I get why Paul Manafort makes a lot of people in the middle and on the left sick. Makes some people on the right sick. So then why did I have him on?

What kind of question is that? You don't think he's relevant? You don't think he is somebody who has very, very good access and understanding of what's going to happen with the former president in the next election? That doesn't matter to you. What Trump's going to do, who the president in the next election? That doesn't matter to you. What Trump's going to do? Who the people are around him? Whom he listens to?

You really don't care about any of that. So now we start looking at what piqued interest on Twitter. Now, again, I don't do this show for Twitter. I don't do this show for the fringes. I do it for free agents, open mind and open heart. That's not what Twitter is about I accept that but let's just look at the game that's being played. Okay Chris you're a serious journalist. Why?

Because I'm a journalist because I care in Understanding even ideas that I oppose again. We're not talking about hate We're not talking about black is and white is not equal. That kind of bullshit I don't entertain. But that's not what we're talking about here and you can't make everything that stark and obvious. You've got to hear the ideas of Paul Manafort. Not about his own case necessarily. Look, it was very clear in the interview that I said to him, you had two different juries go bad on you, okay? Say that you did it. You then had a plea agreement that the prosecutors say that you violated by not telling the truth. I say all of that in the interview. Oh yeah, but why even have him on? Because he's very important

to a man who was former president and he may be part of his reelection or at least his effort to be reelected. That doesn't make him relevant? Come on. Come on. Seriously. Really? Paul Manafort. If this isn't going to be a truthful conversation about his BS with Trump in the U.S. elections and this has no value. Really? So unless he comes on and admits that Trump was just lying and bad and this and that. He has no value to you. Really. You don't think it's of value to you to understand? Let's say you oppose Trump and all things Trump.

You don't want to know why they were able to resonate with a group of people that used to be Democrats? You don't think that's of interest to you? You don't think it's of interest to you to hear who beat you. Remember, Hillary Clinton losing to Donald Trump was one of the biggest cases of political malpractice in recent memory. For the Democrats, to lose to someone like Donald Trump with Hillary Clinton was a disgrace when it comes to just straight political science and calculation.

So how did it happen? You still don't know on the left. You still make the same mistakes. You brought in Joe Biden thinking he was Joe from Scranton. Middle class Joe. Panacea. He'll take care of it. Hasn't worked.

Why? All right. Takes us back to Manafort. Listen to their rationale. Listen to what he says. Now, again, I don't have the stake in the game that you on the left do, but it doesn't mean that I don't see the value of someone as an analyst of that game. Here's another one.

Attaboy, Chris. Scrape the bottom. Now, again, this idea of everybody you oppose, oh, they're the worst. Oh, come on, he's a convicted felon. Yeah, I know. He was in prison for a tax case. Oh, no, no, he was a Russian agent. Bullshit. Oh, you like Paul Manafort. Irrelevant. He's not a Russian agent. They didn't bust him for getting all this money from Russia and for selling out Ukraine and killing U.S. Marines. That's just not true.

It's just stuff that helps you feel more available to hatred of this guy because you oppose him. Because he was working for Trump, not Biden, not Clinton. Look, be honest about it. If you want to be a free agent, be honest about it. People go away for taxes on all sides of the political column. Oh yeah, but this was worse. Why? Because he was involved with Russia. Now listen, it is a mistake to forsake people, throw them in a basket and throw them away, censor ideas, censor people because you don't like them. At a minimum, it keeps you from sharpening your own arguments. At a maximum, it keeps you from ever understanding

anybody but people who think exactly like you. We have to do better than that, okay? I did not bring Paul Manafort onto the podcast as some symbol of injustice or as someone we should all try to be like. It's about understanding players in the game and people who do have value to offer. And as every one of you is wondering

whether or not Donald Trump is gonna run again, this guy has a better feel for it than just about anyone else. So don't you wanna understand the mindset and the motivations? Come on, it's a rhetorical question. The answer has to be yes, if you're taking this seriously. Okay? I mean, literally, you know, when you come at it from another way, I won't listen to this traitor, treason,

he's guilty of treason. I mean, you understand how high a bar treason, look, I know it's just rhetoric. I know it's hyperbole, but it's got to stop. I'm not saying be nice to Paul Manafort. I'm saying change the game. You are becoming what you say you oppose when you do it this way. I'm telling you, these tweets sound just like the ones I get from the right. Each side does have its fringe, and they are like a fungus among us. They are toxifying. Left and right must become reasonable.

That doesn't mean weak. It doesn't mean to succumb. It doesn't mean to be soft. It really is proof of concept of the Chris Cuomo project. The need is great. Because what we're doing right now is fueling fringe thinking. And anybody who says these kinds of things, they don't even listen. They don't even watch.

They already know everything they need to know about Manafort. Everything they need to know about his role and what was right and what was wrong, what worked, what didn't really. I guarantee you the people who wrote these tweets would fail a written test about the facts and circumstances of the situation because it's too much about feel and not fact anymore. And again, I'm not defending Paul Manafort. I'm defending dialogue. Now, example number two of if you want to change the game, you got to change this. Take a look at this piece from the Daily Beast. Daily Beast like it, don't like it. It's a mid-level platform. They've gotten a little bit more into the gotcha game than I think is healthy for good dialogue. But look, it's an open marketplace. You like what you like.

It's an open marketplace. You like what you like. But as a respectable outlet, Putin world declares our agent Trump, notice the single quote, is irreversibly screwed. Now, the headline's everything, right? Few read past it.

You get maybe one paragraph into it, which is kind of a reiteration of the paragraph and the headline subscription. Now, single quote, our agent Trump. What does single quote refer to? That's a characterization. It looks like that's what they call him, right? That's the quote, our agent Trump. It's not a quote. It's a single quote.

It's not double. If it's a double quote, they're taking it from somewhere. If it's single, it's a characterization. Now, do I care that they're saying our agent Trump in Russia? No, I don't care. I'm happy with it. I'm not offended by it. Why? He deserves it for the way he behaved as president of the United States with respect to Russia. I will never forget being in Finland and seeing my president of the United States of America. And this whole he's not my president. I didn't vote for him. I did vote for him. Hey, are you a citizen? We got one president here. We got one process. Okay. And when it comes to that, it should be love it or leave it. Enough of this. If we elect somebody, the president, Joe Biden is my president. Donald Trump was my president, et cetera, et cetera. That's the way it is. That's the way it is. But to see my president standing next to Vladimir Putin and say, my intelligence people in the United States tell me that Russia is behind what's going on with this election interference. But Putin says it isn't him. And I don't know why he'd be lying. It was one of the

most embarrassing moments for me. Journalists from around the world came to me apologetically. I'll never forget an Egyptian journalist came to me and said, now you know how the rest of us feel. Now you know what it's like to have a madman at the helm. So I'm not somebody who's upset to hear Donald Trump get in trouble for his own difference. But what I'm saying is, this is a piece in the Daily Beast that is all about how what the Russians in their propaganda media, they don't have free press. What they say they want is to mess with our minds. And then they write a piece that does exactly that and foment tensions with this bogus suggestion that Russia is admitting that Trump is an asset.

There is no proof. There is no payoff in this piece that Trump is, in. There is no proof. There is no payoff in this piece that Trump is in fact a Russian asset. And in point of fact, we know that the chance that he is is statistically about zero. Okay? We spent millions and months

and many, many, many man hours working on understanding the connection between Trump and Co and Russia. And what did they find out? Forget about the fact that they didn't find any criminal. Listen, I know dozens of guys went away, but they did not get prosecuted or brought under scrutiny because they were Russian agents. And certainly Trump didn't, nor anyone close to him. It's not what Paul Manafort came down for. He came for taxes. Same thing with Michael Cohen.

Actually, freakishly similar. Oh no, Manafort was also about not registering as a foreign lobbyist. Okay, it doesn't mean he's a Russian agent. And look, the dossier, this was all raw intelligence that came in. It never gave a direct link to Trump in any way that wound up being proven in any fashion. Okay? Not everything in the dossier was false, but none of it was certainly dispositive.

Now, is that a defense of Trump? No, it's a defense of the facts. Was Trump guilty of something? Sure. What? Political malpractice. Being reckless. Was Trump guilty of something?

Sure. What? Political malpractice? Being reckless? Being bad as a president by deferring to someone like Putin? Allowing people in his campaign to take stupid meetings like the one Manafort took with Trump's son and his son-in-law? It was a stupid meeting to take. Somebody tells you that they have connections to Russian intelligence, they want to give you dirt on Hillary Clinton? That's a stupid meeting to take. Saying that you want WikiLeaks to spread more bad things is stupid.

Asking Russia to do more when it comes to interference is stupid. It's political malpractice and it's terrible. And I would argue that reaching out to those and letting your people take those kinds of meetings is a form of collusion. Collusion is a behavior. It's not a crime, except in securities law. It is a behavior. And I believe, yes, he is guilty of that behavior,

but it's not a crime. It's not a crime. So here we have a piece that has a headline that suggests that Trump is an agent of Russia. They point to propaganda, even worse than propaganda, agitprop, which is something from the Soviet era, where they are really flooding you with a message that is bullshit, but designed to mess with your mind. And this piece is doing exactly what Russia wants done.

Mess with our minds. Keep people thinking that Trump is a Russian asset. There are plenty of reasons not to vote for Donald Trump or anyone like him. Doesn't mean he has to be a Russian agent. And when you go down that line, you are actually hurting your chances of beating a Donald Trump. Know that. Know that. I just don't understand why we're in such a rush to make things worse.

I don't care if you criticize my work. That's worse. I don't care if you criticize my work. That's fine. I don't care if you don't like Paul Manafort. That's a reasonable position. But to not be open to what he understands that you don't, to help your own position, to increase your chances going forward, that's a mistake. I'll tell you another mistake. The idea that what you're concerned about when it comes to Russia is their control of Trump,

despite so many people trying to make that point and failing, his deference to Putin, Putin pandering, as I used to call it, I see that as a self-fulfilling prophecy. The media, who looks too much to Twitter as Vox Populi, even though Twitter is not us, it is the fringes. And most of us are in the middle. We also did the same thing in the media when it came to Russia with this complete examination and focus and obsession with it being about Trump. And as a result, you get Russia fatigue. I believe that's why you guys were so interested in,

well, look, why did Trump do this? Why did Trump do that? Because it's self-fulfilling prophecy, okay? He made some stupid moves. The media came after him for him. Now he couldn't give the media any validation or satisfaction in their scrutiny by changing course. So he did what he always does, which is double down

on kind of seeming differential towards Russia. Ridiculous. You want to care about Russia and how they're threatening our nation? Remember, that's what we are. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. We need to think about those words.

Russia's coming at us, and that's what Ukraine is about. Putin believes in going back to the Soviet era. He wants the land back. Crimea, eastern Ukraine, my concern there is these brave men and women are giving blood for soil, and they will win the war and lose the peace. Their friends like Germany, the United States, will pressure in negotiations to have Ukraine cede land. And once you send that message to Russia, why would you ever think Putin would stop there? This is a land grab. It will continue. That is anathema to the spreading of democracy. It is anathema to America's national interests and what we say our collective soul is about. These people in Ukraine are fighting for everything that we say matters.

Oh, we've given them so much money. We give everybody so much money. This is an existential battle of whether or not people will be forced to go back into an era of communism and repression. And you don't think that matters as much as this bullshit about Trump's affinity for the Russians and some pee tape? Come on. You want to care about Russia, focus on Ukraine and what's happening there. Focus on Brittany Griner. So that's the direction we took today. All right, I get it. I get it.

Manafort. Oh, you talked to Manafort and Andrew Yang. How do you put them in the same sentence? You guys were loving the Yang gang. Now you think he may be a threat to the Democratic Party by making his own party. And he might, because the third party is very easily a spoiler. I'm not asking for a third party is very easily a spoiler I'm not

asking for a third party I think a third a fourth and maybe a fifth but Andrew Yang is your enemy it's the same as Paul Manafort come on come on we got to be better than this if we want to get to a better place left and right think reasonable so reasonable. So Manafort. Okay. The guest today, Bill Richardson. Now, by the way, don't start clapping your hands like, oh, great. We made Cuomo do it. I recorded Richardson before Manafort. Okay. So I had Bill Richardson ready to go. Why? Because I'm talking to everybody. That's right. Why? I'm talking to right and left men women got a lot of people coming up on the podcast I'm trying to give you voices of people who matter even if you don't like what they say now Bill Richardson he's a big shot on the democratic side uh governor New

Mexico ambassador to the UN uh in the Clinton administration and now involved in the Clinton administration. And now, involved in the negotiations for Brittany Griner. Prisoner swaps. I don't like them. Grow up. They happen all the time. Why? Listen to Richardson. Are they going to get Griner back?

Interesting how Brittany Griner has started to cut down political lines, isn't it? Why? I wonder why that is. Now, some dismiss it as easily saying, well, she's black, so the right doesn't like her. I don't believe that nonsense. But I do believe that the division has to do with that everything's got to be in us, them. And even Brittany Griner, even American who's being held, whether she had drugs or not, that kind of sentence, that's an FU to America from Putin. That's what it is. So I want to talk to Richardson about that and about the Democratic Party. I want you to hear about what he believes about the chances in the upcoming

election, his defense of the two-party system, and of what Democrats are about, what he doesn't like like in his own party. And he in a very clever way uses my own family against me. So Twitter is not who we are. Don't succumb to that fringe mentality. Don't become what you oppose by censoring and rejecting any ideas but your own. There are a lot of bad people in politics on both sides. There are a lot of bad people in politics on both sides. There are a lot of bad people in politics who've been really important and were important to watch. Be careful of media that is baiting you while at the same time telling you watch out about being baited and being baited. And listen to Bill Richardson about the state of play with Brittany Griner, how it works in these negotiations, trying to get back other Americans,

and what the future for Democrats should be. Let's get at it. The Chris Cuomo Project is supported by Cozy Earth. Why? Because I like their sheets. That's why. A lot of people don't get a good night's sleep for a lot of reasons. One of the ones that you can control is bedding. One out of three of us report being sleep deprived. Okay, well, what is it? Well, it stresses all kinds of things.

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You see the website. You'll get details and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. Governor Bill Richardson, a pleasure. Thank you for joining us on the Chris Cuomo Project. Of course, Chris. Anything for you and your family. You're very kind. Now, I want to read you a quote that's from the news today.

We'll start just with, I want your take on politics. Very few understand the game as well as you. I want to see if you can tell me who you think said this, okay? Whatever we can do to help, because the temperature has to be brought down in the country. If it isn't, terrible things are going to happen. You know who that was? That sounds President Biden or was that President Trump? It was former President Trump. Trump saying that the temperature needs to be brought down after he had everybody in a tizzy. After he raises it four times a day.

Right. You raise it four times, you lower it once. How would you measure the temperature of the political climate in this country right now, sir? Right now, it's too intense. It's out of control. The divisions are huge. I don't know what can we do about it. I think what usually happens, Chris, is an election is what will send a message to those that win and those that lose. Other than that, you know, I don't know how you can bring comedy to the Congress, to governors, to the two political parties. It's out of control. And the two political parties. It's out of control. And in a way, although I love politics, I'm glad I'm not in the arena. I'm in the international arena, but not in the local arena. You say an election can make a difference, but now the election just gets contested

and they say it's dirty, it's fake, it's fraud. How corrosive is that to the structure of our democracy? It's very corrosive. There was a great speech done by your father in San Francisco called the City on the Hill. Now, I don't know if there's anyone in this country that can give a speech like that, but that's what is needed. I remember I was just been elected to Congress and it was so emotional. I think something like that kind of, not just rhetoric, but bringing people together is something that is desperately needed. You know, Pop was a fan of yours. You know that you were friends. He had a problem with you, though, because you had too much hair. Your hair was too thick.

It was too good. He didn't like it because he had hair issues. But I would say this. That's not your party anymore. That speech that Mario Cuomo gave at the 1984 convention, I was a kid sitting next to, may she rest in peace, Mrs. Walter Mondale, who was then your nominee. That's not your party anymore. The working class fighting against the elites. You know my father well, for you guys who are the new generation.

I'm not like the governor and myself. My father was first generation in this country, was seen as a less than most of his life. So that was the party fighting against moneyed interests. It seems like now that's become the Republican Party. With the Democratic Party right now, I guess I'm like your dad, like your brother, a moderate Democrat, moderate progressive. I feel that somehow our party has lost a little bit of that contact with the working class. You know, I remember talking to your father. He said, and I believe people just want to make a little more

money. They want entrepreneurship. They want better jobs for themselves, for their kids. They want a college education. And I think somehow we have forgotten that economic component within the party. I'm all for the progressive initiatives that we're doing, but somehow we have that circular firing squad of moderate Democrats whining, progressive Democrats whining. But I think President Biden right now, he's rallying with legislative initiatives that are working. Chris, this climate change component, I read that bill. And if we get that done, it's going to take years on renewable energy. It's going to make a big difference. And also the prescription drugs. Your dad, health care, he was talking about universal health care way before it was

fashionable. And plus, he was a great baseball player. He was a better baseball player than I was because he made the minor leagues. And he tried to help Mickey Mantle, who was a great baseball player. He was a better baseball player than I was because he made the minor leagues. And he tried to help Mickey Mantle, who was my hero. I think that what knitted you guys together, even with the other side, that has really been lost. Because ideas come and go. Positions change over time. Principles are supposed to hold fast. And you didn't have enemies on the other side.

You had people you disagreed with. You had people where you didn't even hold the same principles in terms of what government was about. But whether you were in Congress or obviously as ambassador or master diplomat, and we'll talk about how you're trying to use those skills today to help Brittany Griner, that's what's gone though, Gov. You know, the names don't matter anymore, but I remember sitting in the governor's mansion in Albany and he would have the Republican head of the state Senate. And they had been saying terrible things about my father. And that guy then walks into the house. My father opened a bottle of wine. They would sit down and there'd be one little joke. You know, my father was a big guy. Bill knew him well, but he would look at him and

say, you want to say it now? And there'd be like a little moment. And then he would laugh. They would shake hands and they would talk for three or four hours about how do we get something done? That's what's gone. Now, in this age of Trump, they look at each other like one of them has to go to hell for the other one to go to heaven. Chris, what I felt became intensive partisanship was in the area of foreign policy. And, you know, your father, your family worked on those issues, too. worked on those issues too. But when I was in the Intelligence Committee in the House, Energy Secretary, UN Ambassador, you know, partisanship ended at the water's edge when it was our relationship with NATO, our competition with Russia and China on trade issues. We would always come together and you would not have these intensely partisan votes like we do today.

Although I give credit to President Biden, at least the NATO alliances come together a bit after President Trump literally discarded it and disdained it. I think the President Biden, he's part of that generation of your fathers and mine, although he's a little older than I am, that at least on national security issues, on defending the country, defending law enforcement, defending diversity, defending all kinds of civil rights. I mean, that was your father. That was your legacy. That was something that is deeply missing, but mainly in the national security. So I heard you with my friend George Stephanopoulos. And at the end of the interview, you said, hey, wait a minute. I heard you talking about Biden. Before I go, I'll campaign for him. I think that he should have a second term. That is not ringing in echoes all across your party right now. I had Senator Joe Manchin on the show and he said, I cannot tell you that I'll back the president for a second term. Democrats not saying openly they back a Democratic

president for a second term. How do you understand that? Well, first of all, with Joe Manchin, he and I were governors together and we got along well. I still work with him. I like the guy. But I do think President Biden right now, and not because there aren't other strong candidates in the party, deserves re-election mainly because of his experience in foreign policy, where I think our biggest challenges are going to be with China, not just trade issues, but military issues. With Russia, nuclear weapons, they have over 2,000 nuclear weapons. The absence of our interests as a country in Latin America, Africa, Asia, North Korea, nuclear issues. And I think that's where you need the expertise of the president, but also his accomplishments. I mean, this semiconductor

bill that it's like rallying, your father would understand this as a baseball player in the ninth inning or eighth inning, a semiconductor bill, an initiative on climate change, prescription drugs. I just think that everything is coalescing at the right time. And I think he deserves this reelection. Do you think he wants a second term? He says he does. I hope he does. As somebody that has hit his early 70s, I just don't like all this criticism of, you know, the speaker who's in her 80s, Steny Hoyer, I think he's in his 80s, Chuck Schumer is in his 70s. You know, I mean, experience, there's nothing wrong with experience. And so I just think there's a little lopsided victimization of those of us that have had a foot race. This is about understanding experience and being there before. However, you completely dismiss the idea that President Biden is not at the height of his

powers anymore and that they're hiding him and he's not who he was and that we need somebody with more gas in the tank. Well, just looking at the way he governs, I think the foreign policy team is strong, especially the National Security Council. On the domestic side, I would say that he needs a little more, what's the word, non-beltway team. He's got a good team. But, you know, I noticed he had lunch with Tom Friedman of the New York Times, which is good. The guy is a brilliant guy. But what I would do is I'd have lunch with somebody from the Midwest or the West, an ordinary person, and ask him about inflation. Not that the president doesn't know. I think the first lady's done a great job. And you know,

this Kamala Harris, I think she's done fine. She represents women, minorities, the base. I don't understand the whining, especially on his leadership. He doesn't move as fast as he used to, but I think his mental acuity is there. You know, he's doing well and deserves this second shot if he wants it. I'd support him. I said that to George because I wanted him to ask me, you know, he's all toward policy and he's a brilliant guy. But I wanted to say that. It's also hard, though, where he is. You know, you go after Biden, even the way I'm asking it to you now. Look, I've said many times on television when my father passed, you know, he wasn't president then, obviously. But Joe Biden picked up the phone,

called me, called my mother, called my brother. And people can say, oh, yeah, well, what does that have to do? Humanity matters. Decency matters. And reaching out to people in a moment of pain is not easy. And I'll never forget it. And I appreciate them for it. But when I was doing this project, getting it going, I reach out and say, hey, you know, when the president's ready, I'd love to have him on. I can't tell you how many people say, Gov, well, we're not putting them on with you.

Why not? You know, we don't, it's too much, you know, that kind of testing ground, you know, that's not what he does. I was like, what are you talking about? I mean, this is, you know, this is what he was best at. And it does seem like they're hiding them, Gov, that he is not out there the way President Obama was. Bill Clinton would take anybody on at any time, in any format and make them look silly if they weren't on their game. Obama, not so much. Biden, you do not see him doing interviews. You do not see him taking all comers. Is that a mistake? Well, yeah, I would I would visibly put him out there more. I agree with you there. But I think one of the problems now, Chris, is

that these Democratic accomplishments that he's made, I'm not blaming the media, but it's all social media. Those regional newspapers that were operating in the old days, they're almost gone. So what I think the president needs to do, and the party needs to do, the Democrat, is paid media. Pay for the ads. Pay for the ads on regional television. Pay for the ads in social media on your accomplishments, on climate change, on, well, I wouldn't go into the inflation issue, but gas prices have gone down, on prescription drugs, on climate change. You got good numbers on inflation also. And I think you're touching on something. I wonder if you can even answer your own question. Why do you guys not play the game better? You know, with the Republicans, they give a tax cut, they don't

even pay for it, and they're holding a parade about their own success. You guys get things done in a climate where nobody wants to do anything. Opposition is a legitimate position. And you don't play the game as well of singing the song of your own accomplishments and building up your strength. Yeah, I think that's a fundamental problem that we have as a party. And I think one solution is paid bragging rights that are legitimate and defend ourselves and not take any grief and hit back hard. You know, some Democrats are doing that. Others are not.

They just sort of wait. The Republicans have a very good system being on the attack. And I'm not just blaming the Democrats. That's corroded our political process. I mean, look at where we are. You guys have your hands full running against former President Trump, if he comes again, when the guy has just been exposed for hiding top secret and above materials in his basement, tried to overturn the democracy, pretended he didn't lose the election, tried to overturn the democracy, pretended he didn't lose the election, and said that a pandemic would pass in a week or two, and you guys got your hands full. What does that tell you about

the state of play in the country? At the same time, Chris, I just saw some polls. Ohio, Pennsylvania, Arizona, our candidates for the Senate are doing well. Now, that could be a pickup of one seat or have two seats in the Senate. We need to concentrate on the Senate. We may lose the House, but it may not be as bad as everyone thinks. Maybe we can keep it fairly even. So I think there's a movement kind of slow, and hopefully will peak in November, that indicates people are listening. I mean, this Mar-a-Lago situation, this is terrible. I can't believe what happened. When I was in the national security arena in the cabinet, I mean, you had some very sensitive information. And the FBI would say to you, for God's sakes, give it back.

Right. Can you imagine if you got found with this kind of stuff in your basement, where I'd be talking to you from right now? Oh, no, I know. You know, like I saw that there was a top secret compartmentalized. I mean, some of that stuff is nuclear. It's arms control. It's covert action. Is there any good reason you could think of that a former president would have that stuff? No. What I learned from my intelligence friends is the president, President Trump didn't like to read anything.

So I'm perplexed why he keeps some of these secret documents with him because he didn't read them. And look, and this idea that he didn't know, if he didn't know, then when they asked for them back, he would have given them to them, you know? And, you know, now you have all these people were saying that the Democrats orchestrated a raid of Mar-a-Lago, all of the evidence that has come out, all of the facts, all of the circumstances, it was not a raid. They did everything the best way they could. Trump and his lawyers resisted an informal request, then a subpoena. I mean, what else are you supposed to

do? But now you're in a climate where all the people who are complaining about executing the search warrant aren't asking any questions about why he has these things in his basement. Right. The only entity on our side that I would fault, I think the attorney general has done a good job, but he's super cautious. He should have explained the day of. You got to own the narrative. Tell your own story. And also the and then the recriminations of the of many Republicans against the FBI and our law enforcement. I think that scandals. I mean, these are vetted women that are protected. And you should have had Christopher Wray go out and

say, by the way, I'm a Republican. I was appointed by Trump, by the way. You all love me then. OK, now you think I'm part of some Democrat conspiracy? You know, I don't understand why they don't do this again. I won't say it's just messaging. You have to explain what you do. You know, this is a former president of the United States at his home. Regardless of the evidence, it should have been a little more open. Right. He's saying take down the temperature. If he wants to take down the temperature, former President Trump should say, you know what? I got to explain this stuff in my basement. I don't know how I got there. I'm figuring it out. That will take down the temperature. Yeah. And his excuse that he can declassify or that's just crazy. He can declassify. But why are all those documents boxes and boxes? He can, but he didn't

know the answer. We don't have the evidence. He can declassify, but he didn't declassify. This is like that crazy argument they had about the pardons. You know, that he can pardon anybody at any point, whenever he wants. Yeah, but he didn't. It's just an interesting and confusing time. We don't fake the funk here. And here's the real talk. Over 40 years of age, 52% of us experience some kind of ED between the ages of 40 and 70.

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So that takes us to Brittany Griner. People now know the name, WNBA star. She's over in Russia. They get her on drug charges. She gets a very heavy sentence. Governor, Ambassador Bill Richardson gets asked to help. Were you surprised by the request? Were you worried about accepting? Well, I'd been involved, Chris, individually on my own through my foundation with an American Marine about two months ago, Mickey Bergman on my team that worked with me on

that to get Trevor Reed, a Marine out in exchange for a Russian named Yaroshenko, but maybe two months ago. And I went to Russia. I helped, but it was, I give the administration credit. I'm involved, but I don't want to talk about all the things I'm doing. This is a government to government issue and I'm not trying to replace the government. I think what the president has done, which is correct to say, I don't just want Brittany Griner. I want Paul Whelan, an American Marine, wrongfully detained, been there five years, has a family. And so in exchange, we're going to do a prisoner exchange, which seems unseemly because our law enforcement doesn't like that, because many of these people that other governments request are bad people like this arms dealer named Booth, who was responsible for years, you know, selling weapons of mass destruction, selling weapons.

Some say killing Americans that law enforcement years trying to put them in the can. And they did. So I think eventually this is going to be a two for two deal. The Russians want parity. But the fact that they did negotiate two months ago, despite the toxic relationship in the war. I think Brittany Greiner's lawyers have handled it well, contrition, acknowledging the error. And then lastly, I think both countries seem to want to maybe send a signal that on humanitarian issues like this grain agreement that the UN brokered between Russia and Ukraine to provide grain and fertilizer, not provide it, like unblock it. Little, little minuscule steps in the right direction. This is why I'm hopeful that this Briner issue can be settled. Three questions on this. One, why is it okay to do swaps and exchanges if you believe

that someone's being held wrongfully? Why is that okay? Is it just a grow up, this is the way it happens kind of thing? Like this is the reality? Well, first, I think that the United States government has an obligation to bring all our hostages home. One, that have been wrongfully detained. Secondly, prisoner exchanges are unseemly. But, you know, there've been cases that I've been involved where it's not a prisoner exchange. Like there was this journalist named Danny Finster that we got out of Burma. All they wanted was a photo op. They'd forgotten I was no longer important.

But we got them out. You know, with North Korea, they wanted food, and we got an American prisoner. But yeah, right now the Irans, the Venezuelans, the countries like Russia, they want prisoner exchanges. Does it hurt us? Unstably, but we got to do it. We got to bring our hostages back. There are 70 around the world that are detained. So you believe no matter who you're giving back, as long as it's not like some international terrorist who wants to, you

know, kill every American, you believe it's worth it to get Americans home? Yes, I do. I do. And there are a lot of people that disagree with me, but I do, especially our military, especially those that have served overseas. And I think you can't forget the Brittany Grinder. She's African-American. She made a mistake. She's African-American. She made a mistake. She's a basketball star. She's a symbol. But I think combining her with Whelan, the Marine, was smart and good, sensible policy and morally correct.

But I think the Russians are going to want a little more than this guy, Booth. And so be it. What do you say to people who say, yeah, Whelan, we hear you. You're right. Greiner broke the law. Why should we burn any capital and why should she be partnered with a Marine? You know, she made this choice. She did it herself. That's what happens. Well, I've heard that argument. I get letters like that. But I also get letters from other detainees in Russia that don't have this megaphone, that are not famous.

You know, we have a POW in Ukraine, an American, or two. And, you know, we're going to try to help them, my foundation, Mickey Bergman, in some way. So, look, the world is not perfect. You mentioned your father. I mean, you try to fix things. All right. We denounce each other. But in the end, Tip O'Neill, Ronald Reagan, your father, the Albany legislature, when I was governor, you try to, in the end, fix the problem and try to do it morally correct. But sometimes you got to compromise. Help us understand something. You have been working with Russia. Lavrov, who's there in a position of power you've gotten to know well for many, many years. The idea now is they cannot be dealt with. They are rudderless and bent on the reacquisition of all former Soviet territories, and they don't care who they kill in the process. Do you believe that they can be trusted on any level, that negotiations are possible? Well, negotiations on prisoner issues, on humanitarian issues that I've been involved with, on prisoners.

And, you know, I commend the secretary general of the U.N., Gutierrez, for this grain fertilizer agreement. But, you know, Chris, I got to be careful. Everybody listens to your show. I can't go, you know, attacking Russia right now because I'm trying to get something done. I think our policy has been correct. Well, do you believe there's a long term game that we have to keep our eye on that maybe gets lost in kind of looking at Ukraine as the be all end all or whether it's a hostage situation? What is the long term game that requires more sensitivity towards Russia?

Well, you know, if you look at what Putin is trying to do, he's trying to create a multipolar world because it was shifting, in his view, to Russia and the United States. And he's sending a message, hey, it's a multipolar world. It's not bipolar. We have 2,000 nuclear weapons. We want some of our territory back. I'm not justifying, but that's his thinking. And at the same time, China has gotten more militant. You know, before you were born, Chris, Henry Kissinger and Nixon, one good thing he did in foreign policy was he jammed the Russians into an arms control agreement by going to Beijing with the Chinese, with Zhou Enlai, with Mao, and forged a little bit of a relationship to split things off. I hope somebody in the

administration, and maybe they are, they're thinking of a new geopolitical world that is multipolar. And this is what I think Putin is trying to do. And we can't ignore a nation that has 2,000 nuclear weapons. When I was Secretary of Energy, we did a lot of arms control agreements, computer agreements, uranium agreements with Russia. I don't know what's happened. All of that has fallen apart. And it started out, I believe, with President Trump, even though he and Putin got along well. I mean, the relationship was hostile. Look where we are. Obama made some arms control agreements, made some economic agreements with Russia. Ukraine is a great nation. We're on the right side, but there has to be an endgame here. You know, I was

recently at a gas station pumping my own gas, and this guy comes up, the big guy, a trumper, you know, big guy with a boat, and he says to me, hey, I have a little 83 Mercedes. I like the car, but I don't like the driver. He was referring to me and he smiled. But then he says, you know, I like what you're doing with this hostage stuff. And he smiled and I smiled and he went away. But then he comes back and he says, you know, this Ukraine thing, we're on the right side. But what about me? Look at these gas prices. He points to the pump. You know, this was when it was really high. I don't know if you can work these things out, but it's it's related.

And there's civility that is needed. This is why your dad was so good. That issue of civility, of talking to each other, city on the hills. You should listen to that speech again. Well, you were a kid, right? I was 14 years old. I listened to it then, but I didn't appreciate it until much, much later. And actually, when I was cooling my heels over the last few months, I reread a book that he had written called Reason to Believe, which was somewhat of a rationale, a mission statement for him about understanding the purpose of government and the purpose of leadership. I just don't know in this two-party system whether it's possible anymore. I don't subscribe to ideas of single-factor analyses.

You know, it's always complicated. There's always a lot of stuff going on. You know this better than anybody. But I think we've reached a point where just two parties is too few. You need more parties with collective power to create coalitions for compromise, and not just because it's alliterative, but because the Democratic Party

is clearly two parties in one. The Republican Party is maybe two or three parties in one. And I do have to believe that as long as you got two, Gov, if I want to run against you, you're smarter, you're better, you've got the experience. But if I'm running against you, all I'm going to spend my time doing is finding some way to tear you down. And as long as I can say, hey, I may be a bum, but Richardson's worse, I win. And I don't know that the country gets to a better place in this toxic twosome. Well, you know, Chris, I win. And I don't know that the country gets to a better place in this toxic twosome. Well, you know, Chris, I look at what has been announced recently,

the formation of this new independent party, Andrew Yang and others. I mean, it doesn't sound correct. They're trying to exploit the situation, I believe. I don't think there's a viable third party, at least in this generation, that is going to happen. So then you've got to operate within this framework. I think ideally, yeah, maybe you're right. But go back to your father's speech, the city on the hill, civility, protecting families, protecting your religion, your neighborhood, protecting the economic viability of kids going to school. Now, I don't know who can do that. I think Biden's the best person right now out there that can do this. And you've got to look at practically what's out there. I saw this Andrew Yang, Independent Party, you know, their platform.

It's just rhetoric. The country isn't ready for this. I don't think so. We do the best with our two parties. And I worry about the Republican Party. You know, in the aftermath of Trump, I kind of hope that the Republican Party comes back with, well, I won't say this, the Bushes. You know, the great coalitions building on the highway system, on our environmental issues, on our economic issues, Eisenhower, JFK. You know, those are the days that are needed again, this bipartisanship of a moderate Republican Party and a moderate Democratic Party. And at the water's edge on foreign policy, an ability to come together, at least unquestionably on domestic issues. Yeah, let's go fight it out. But on foreign policy, protecting the country, arms control.

But then what gets us there? What get, you know, to end where we began, you know, former President Trump putting out a statement that the temperature needs to come down when the whole story of his success is raising the temperature, you know, playing the people's fears and prejudices and their concerns. Even if he doesn't identify with those people, he understood their concerns and their fears. What gets us to a better and sweeter place when all you have to do to win right now is attack the other side? Yeah, I don't have the answer, Chris.

Well, you better figure it out, Bill Richardson. You are known as a master negotiator. Well, yeah, but, you know, like I negotiated with that guy at the gas station, Soda. You know, we ended up smiling at each other. But that's the best I can do. What I'm saying is I think an election sends a message. I think the Republican Party, it's going to take a lot longer for them to stop being obstructionist totally on everything and the Trump factor. But Chris, there are people out there that believe in this guy. Yeah, but what does that tell you? I mean, I live in a place that he won, you know, and a lot of these guys are my friends. We fish together. They've gotten to know me better, right? So they don't just write me off by my last name and what my brother and my father's party was, right? Because they hear Democrat. And I'll say to them, I said, look, I'm not a Democrat. I'm not a Republican. I never have been. You know, if your name's Cuomo, I vote for you. But other than that, I don't do it. But they had to get to know me.

And they say, hey, those people in that party that you're not a part of, they're trying to get rid of me as a white guy. All the commercials are filled with people who aren't white now and they're taking our jobs and they don't believe in values anymore. They don't even believe in gender. And nobody speaks for me except Trump. Right. I think the issue that may bring us together is economic, is entrepreneurship, is making people make a little more money. That's all people want. You know, when I was a governor, I lowered taxes. I did. And, you know, I'm still catching grief over this because I wanted to attract business to my state, which was a poor state, still is. Your father had some tax cuts too, right?

You remember that. Sure. Not enough. Chris, I think it's the economic issue and not these other important issues, you know, on the environmental, the gender stuff. But it all gets connected, Gov, right? Because when you get financial insecurity, you can't provide for your family the way you want to. It starts killing your dreams.

It makes you scared. It takes away from your sense of self and your pride. And it starts to bleed into everything else. I mean, I just wonder, you know, the story about you and the 83 Mercedes. You found something to connect to that wasn't Oppositional he just respected that you had kept the car in good shape that you took care of He liked my car, but he plainly said I don't like the driver, but then he smiled But he was making conversation. He could have just ignored

Right he connected we were like aligning each other right in the middle of the where you get the gas and But then we smiled at the end. And he did say something. Well, I like the hostage stuff. But I need a little help. He didn't look like he was a big guy. He had a big SUV. But, you know, I admitted to you, I don't have the answer.

But it's okay not to have the answers as long as you're interested in getting to a better place. You know what I mean? It's never been about perfection. It's been about just making the right effort and appealing to what used to be called our better angels. I mean, that's why I started this podcast. That's why I'm going back. You know, when I first got shit canned, I was thinking to myself, I'd never go back into the business. I was going to do something else.

It's too vicious. There are too many people coming after me. It's affecting my kids. I'm not doing it. But over time and talking to people, I realized it's worth the effort. Even if I'm going to get beat up sometimes, that's okay because I'm tough. And it's worth it because I think I can help people get to a better place and care about each other more. You stick out what you're doing. You come from a great family, a great legacy. So read that speech again of your father. And I know your mom, too. She's the best. She'll be watching this, Richardson. So watch what you say. She'll be

watching. Let me ask you something. I hope she does. I know you can't mess with the negotiations. I know it's sensitive. Is there any sense at all in terms of timing for people who are watching this when there's a chance that something may happen? You know, the geopolitical situation, the human rights situation, the relationship is so toxic. No, but it could happen any time. And no, the Biden administration is serious. They want a deal. I think the Russians want a deal, too, because of politics. Putin wants this guy boot and wants a little more. I think it'll be a two for two. So I'm not, I'm also optimistic about these negotiators. I'm optimistic about the country. I know things aren't going too good. You know, we're America. We'll get out of this. I hope, but it may take a little time. You keep doing what you're doing. Your message. Well, I'll do what I'm doing and I'll

be watching what you're doing because trying to bring home a Marine, trying to bring home Brittany Griner, Whelan and Griner should be names that people know. I'll be watching the efforts. Anything I can do to help, let me know, Gov, and I appreciate you. Thank you, Chris. All the best to you. Good luck with your program. Thank you for making it a success.

So there you have Bill Richardson, one of the gray-maned lions in the Democratic Party, but still a lot of fire in the belly. He's fighting for an American, stuck over in Russia, multiple ones actually. Will he get them home? And will he hit home about the Democratic Party? What do you think? You agree with him about the future, not just these elections, but where you have to be going forward and why Joe Biden deserves another term. Let me know. Give me the comments. Appreciate it. As always, get that free agent merch, spread the word, and thank you for following and subscribing. I'll see you next time.