The Chris Cuomo Project - Brian Tyler Cohen Explains What Democrats Must Do Next

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

Brian Tyler Cohen (YouTube and podcast host, “No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen,” and author, “The Day After: How to Wield Power in a Post-Trump World”) joins Chris Cuomo to discuss why Democrats have a real opportunity heading into the midterms — and what they must do differently if they want to keep it. Chris and Brian break down why disruption is driving American politics, why Democrats are positioned to become the new insurgent party, and what happens if they actually win. They debate the filibuster, socialism, institutional reform, messaging, the future of the Democratic Party, and whether Trump’s movement has fundamentally changed how politics works in America. Chris and Brian also discuss how to govern after victory, why political movements often lose their way once they’re in power, and what lessons Democrats should learn from MAGA before it’s too late. Join The Chris Cuomo Project on YouTube for ad-free episodes, early releases, exclusive access to Chris, and more: https://www.youtube.com/@chriscuomo/join Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Get 15% off OneSkin with the code CUOMO at https://www.oneskin.co/cuomo #oneskinpod Visit https://www.sleep.me/CUOMO to get your Chilipad 2.0 for up to $255 off with code CUOMO, plus free shipping and a 30-day risk-free trial. Limited time only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. to know what's going to win in the midterms? You want to know even more importantly. What? What's more important than that? What to do once you do win? How to avoid the pitfalls that have dogged you in the

past. That is the truly vexing question. And I have somebody who I think has a really complete answer who has studied the past, knows what befalls, those who come in as disruptors, and what to do about it. And his name is Brian Tyne. Kyler Cohen. And he's got a new book out, okay, called The Day After that is well-researched and well-reasoned. Now, do I agree with everything that goes into it? Nope. And that's why you're here. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. Hey, man, you got to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. Why? Look, certain things are just too much about right and wrong to be polite. I'm with you on that. But those are the few. the many. All right, you want to talk about whether or not it's okay that ICE kills someone

because they were here illegally. You're not getting politeness out of me on that, okay? If you want to talk about how the law is and what it is and when it's right and when it's wrong, even if it doesn't look good, even if it's ugly, then you're in the right place. If you want to talk about whether, well, you got to stick with MAGA because the left is just a bunch of communists. You got the wrong guy. Now, I'm not going to get angry at you because that's just ignorance. That's not hate. But I don't agree with that. But I do agree that the Democrats have problems that I wish they didn't have because I believe the country needs disruption. I think it needs different than what is happening right now. And unfortunately, for me, as an anti-partisan, all we have is the other party. All we have is

the Democrats. So as long as they're right about what's wrong, that's like the minimum standard. I'm not happy about it, but it is where we are. So I do think that in a moment that is all about an appetite for disruption, and the Democrats are perfectly positioned to be the disruptors, right? Because they're not in power. And they seem to understand what is wrong, which is on my chest, okay? You got to be obsessed with fix in America first. We got lots of things that need to be addressed. And I think it was a little bit of a gotcha question. that somebody asked me, you don't think America is progressing? That's a trick question because if you don't say yes, then it's like you hate America, which is stupid. But I also do believe that, yeah, overall America is moving in the right direction. But right now, I think it bends this way. You know, Martin Luther King's famous quote, bends towards justice, but the arc is long, right?

But it does bend towards justice. I believe that it's kind of like, dig dig dig dig, right? But we're moving up, but it's very incremental right now because a lot of things are bad and need to be better. So maybe bad is the wrong word,

but I think some of it is bad. And maybe it's worse in other places, but it needs to be better here. However you look at it, the day after is going to come. And when it does, the book is aptly titled because Brian Tyler Cohen

is going to discuss and defend what comes, why it comes, and why the Democrats should be there, and what they should do with that power. And there's some very controversial things in this discussion. The filibuster, socialism, who's good, who's evil. So let's get after it. BTC, I'm so happy to see you. I'm so proud of you for putting out the book. It's such a smart thing for Democrats, for the left, for critical thinkers, to think about how do you use power if you get into power in the age of Trump? And I think it's really interesting. And I wanted to let people in on the private conversation we were having. We were talking about media. And Brian was

saying, boy, one of your guests last night, what a scotch. Boy, is he annoying. I don't know how you do it. And I've learned something in part from watching you and others, which is I've, never had the freedom that you have. And so I never had any expectation of it. You know, my life has always been for 20 something years, you do what they tell you to do. And I'm not saying bias. I'm not saying lie. I'm not saying anything like that. But you got to make sure that they're okay with what you're doing. Otherwise, you've got a problem. And now I have a taste of what you have. And it makes it very hard to work for somebody because I feel the same way you do about who's annoying, but I am not the master of my ship.

I have a captain who is saying, yeah, but I like him, but I like her. That's my life. So not only do I have to deal with some fucking jackass who's like using all these gotchas and specious premises and everything else, you don't have to deal with that. Now, there are risks in independent media. Guard rails can be a good thing. having accountability, having someone who says, whoa, Brian, you can't say it's rape.

It was sexual assault. It's different. That can be a good thing. And I think there are too many people on the independent side who are just about clicks way more than anyone in what you guys called mainstream media, but you're not one of them. So why did you believe this book had to come out right now?

I appreciate you asking. So the book is called The Day After How to Weald Power in a Post-Trump World. I think it's important to have this debate now, because there will come a point. And I truly believe that Democrats will get into power that will run the House, the Senate, the White House. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't do the work that I do. If I didn't have hope that there would be a better future, I would, look, I'd move to Thailand and just start hanging out with elephants. I'd open up an elephant sanctuary. But I do believe that there is a world where Democrats take control again. And I would

would rather have this debate now so that if and when we get into power, we don't waste that precious sliver of time doing what Democrats always do, which is saying, okay, we've got all this power, let's impanel a commission, let's see what their findings are, and then six to 12 months later will start to put those into effect. By doing this now, by having this debate now, by normalizing this idea of wielding power, and most importantly, letting Democratic officials know that there is a appetite, a massive appetite for them to wield power now, we can use the time that we're actually in power to do something about it, to deliver on climate change, to deliver on health care, to deliver on voting rights reforms, to deliver on a more just economy. But I think

it's all about timing. And when we're in those positions where we have full control of government, as we saw from the Biden administration, they come and go really quickly. And so I would rather not squander that time doing what Democrats always do, which is basically tantamount to writing strongly worded letters, and instead focus on getting shit done. Give me more. What do you think happens that doesn't happen with Republicans? What do you think has to happen differently?

I mean, Trump has shown that our institutions are not sacrosanct. I mean, he has barreled through everything to get what he wants. He's barreled through. Isn't that bad? Yes, but my argument is that, that you don't do it for self-enrichment. You don't do it for vanity projects. You don't do it to consolidate power for yourself. You do it to deliver for people. You know, the example that I often point to is like, look how close we were to voting rights reform, but Democrats thought it was more

important to adhere to protecting the filibuster than actually getting that legislation passed. And I think that something happens when you get to D.C. Some type of D.C. brain rot. where you think that your job becomes to defend the institutions of government, as opposed to ensuring that the government can actually deliver for people. You are not there to defend the filibuster. You are there to deliver for your constituents. And because we weren't able to pass voting rights reform, now we're in a world where they don't have it.

We're in a world where we're watching Black Opportunity Districts disappear throughout the entire South. I wouldn't be surprised if by 2030 there are no opportunity districts in Republican-run states and that black representation has been completely eliminated. We defer to these institutions at the same time that Republicans show a blatant disregard for them. And so that asymmetry just creates a playing field that we're never going to win on. And so I hear what you're saying. It's not in, look, you know as well as anybody. It is not in the Democrats' DNA to consolidate power so that they can enrich themselves

and build monuments to themselves. It's just not in their DNA. Democrats are way too precious about government, precious to a fault about government. These are diehard institutionalists at their core. So I think that we have to be less precious about these institutions and way more precious about delivering for people because frankly, Chris,

like, you also know this just as well as anybody else does, which is we have a very disillusioned population. They became disillusioned with the Democrats, which led to a massive victory for Republicans. And now, because Republicans refused to deliver on their promises, because they've watched costs rise, health care get gutted, new wars in the Middle East start, the Epstein files continue to get suppressed.

Now people are disillusioned with that party. So I think we're going to have one more bite at the apple from an electorate that's already at their wits end to gain power and show that we can do something with that power, but then we have to actually do something with that power. Okay, this is a great conversation. Good. Now, I'm wearing this because this is what wins in the midterms and for good reason.

And you should be wearing this and this is what you guys should be about. I am not about your party. I do think you are nowhere near the level of downside that MAGA is. Maga is the most toxic populist movement that has devoured a party that I've ever seen. Trump is a huge part of that, but he's not the only. part of it. So is there opportunity? Does the country want different? Are they sick of the fringe? Are they sick of magnified minorities? Are they suspicious of the algorithm? Yes, yes, yes. Everything's going in your direction. The direction of change. They're in power. That's the best thing you got going for you.

You are now the disruptors. There's so many levels of nuance here that you guys have to negotiate in order to get to where you want to be. The biggest one is what you're outlining in the book. How, to use power, which is so smart. And that's why I'm happy to hawk the book for you, because I actually think it's a good critical thinker literacy guide. You should read it. You don't have to agree with everything that Brian puts out, obviously, but it'll make you think about the right questions. The answers come and they're a function of preference. I am anti-party, but that is a luxury, right? I am anti-party because I know what Washington and Jefferson and Hamilton and Madison and Monroe and Teddy Roe and all of them said, which is the parties will kill us. They are killing us.

But we are where we are and the rules are what they are and they're not going to change. I call for a constitutional convention. I'm like a poor man's Thomas Payne. You know, I'm trying to change the framework. This is a luxury. This is an academic conversation. I get it. Now, the filibuster. I believe is a great fulcrum for this conversation. If the institutions are not protected, respected, and used instead of abused, everything will break. The filibuster is frustrating as hell. You would have had a lot of change that you don't have now. So would Trump. And I think more than ever, we can't rule off a simple majority. We're too crazy, Brian. We're too crazy. Brian. We need 60 votes for the next Supreme Court justice. And now it's over. It's just a simple majority.

And that is killing us. You guys started it with Harry Reid and now you're paying for it with this Supreme Court. Are you sure you want to get rid of it? You said everything will break. My contention here, my retort to that is everything is broken. And so we can make the conscious decision to sit here and do nothing or we can do whatever we have to do. do to get something else done. Like, there is no world in which, people always say, aren't you worried that if you do this,

Republicans will abuse it? Republicans are already abusing it. So are we going to not act for fear of Republicans doing something that they're doing right now? I mean, we are watching Donald Trump barrel through all of these institutions. We're watching the Republican Party not lift a finger as he shatters the emoluments clause.

I mean, this guy, you could make the argument good faith that Donald Trump is not even acting in the best interest of this country because he's acting to consolidate more wealth for himself. We know that the UAE, that Qatar are pouring money into World Liberty Financial. We know that Donald Trump is opening or inking real estate deals in foreign countries. And our foreign policy, because of his son-in-law and Don Jr. and Eric. And so our foreign policy, taxpayer-funded foreign policy, is being dictated by what's going to be to the best benefit of this family. And so, again, I think that I get everything you're saying. And look, I also am not somebody who wants to tear government down. I want government to work, but I want it to work. Like, government can't just work so that we can watch different processes and norms and traditions block any progress.

That's what government is about. But why do you think the Republicans are? are holding off on getting rid of the filibuster. This is the most extreme, the most craven faction I've ever seen running the government. They're not holding off on eliminating the filibuster. They've eliminated the filibuster for their priorities. They've eliminated the filibuster for confirming judges. They've eliminated the filibuster for passing tax cuts, which they do often.

And they do it to the disproportionate benefit of millionaires and billionaires. So the filibuster is gone for Republican priorities. The filibuster exists for progress. The filibuster exists for climate change legislation, for the Freedom to Vote Act, for the Voting Rights Act. You know you changed the filibuster on judges, not them, right? You know you did it. Yeah, I mean, Harry Reid did it.

You seem to ignore that. Makes me want to grab that luxurious head of hair and say, don't you play those games with the game. It was a little bit before my time, I will admit. But the reality is... Oh, now you're playing that I'm an old man. Now you're playing this car. You're playing the gray hair.

You know history. You're smart and you do your homework before your time. I can't take ownership, Chris, over what Harry we did. That was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was blacking out in college somewhere. But I'm just saying that's why it happened. The Republicans said, don't do it. I understand that. And he did it to get around the recess appointments and then they did it for the Supreme Court. If it goes, it's got to mean something to you, BTC, that they don't want to lose it all together. Even they know. It means that they recognize that Democrats, disproportionately benefit from being able to have no barrier to passing progressive legislation. I mean, what else do Republicans want to pass? They want to pass the Save America Act. I understand that they want to do that. First of all, there's not enough support for them to do that. But second of all, they know the risks of limiting the filibuster because they would pass a Muslim ban. They might pass some crazy corporate deregulations. But you have to remember political gravity

exist too. So they can pass bills saying that everybody has to pay Donald Trump a dollar when they say his name. That's all well and good. It might pass muster. But voters get a say in this stuff too. You can pass a Muslim ban. Voters get a say in this stuff. You can pass a blatant voter suppression bill. Voters get a say in this. No, of course, with a voter suppression bill, that may have ramifications on their ability to have a say on this. So that's a little bit of an outlier. But remember, unpopular policy will not redound to their political benefit. And they've got midterms coming up. They, you know, their voters go to the ballot box just as much as Democratic voters do.

So, yes, they can do that. And they can, you know, think about this. Like, these people don't have good policy instincts. And they don't have good policy positions. So, sure, they would be, they would be unmoored in terms of, in terms of, in terms of, of what they're able to do. But them passing legislation that mandates, that mandates, you know,

only fossil fuels used in energy is not going to be popular. Them passing legislation that says, you know, only white Christian men can vote is not going to be popular. I mean, they can go all the way to the ends of the earth. But then why would you create a mechanism that allows the frenzy of the moment to dictate, even when it goes against the common, the collective conscience. I mean, and it depends on the issue, Brian.

You know, yes, there's a whole story of how fraught the Democratic situation was in the last election. And I definitely believe you guys lost it. He didn't win it. He had no business winning, let alone get in the most votes in the modern era. That was on the Democrats. And you should learn that lesson. I don't know that you have. immigration, okay?

You're on the wrong side of that issue in terms of the American people. Buy a lot, okay? Overall taxation, now it's shifting, but you've been on the wrong side. Culture issues, you've been on the wrong side. You're a bunch of canceling. You don't believe in live and what live. You know, you've been wrong on things. So where the country is is not always where you are.

especially now. You know I don't buy in that the DSA is going to change us from capitalism. I have a terrible argument because they keep saying they want to change it. And so every time I say, look, yeah, you're not going to get me with that boogeyman. People are more worried about the reality than what the remedy is. And then people say, Cuomo, it's right here. It's right here. Get rid of capital. I know. I know it is. It's so stupid. I wish they would stop saying that. But you guys weren't always on the right side. You know, let me, let me propose something to you. Let's say the Democrats are able to pass one of their signature pieces of legislation.

Legislation that was so important, they presented it to the House of Representatives first, HR1, the Freedom to Vote Act. One of the provisions in the Freedom to Vote Act was a provision banning partisan gerrymandering nationwide. When you have districts, love it. When you have districts where they're not R plus seven. D and D plus 80, what happens to Congress? And in turn, what happens to the willingness of those members of Congress to pass the most extreme legislation? This would fix the principal issue that

you're complaining about, which is, okay, now you've got a political party in power with only a simple majority threshold to pass to change legislation. But if you have people there that didn't have to pander to the farthest fringes of both parties, and you can pass legislation that's going to help people. Yeah, so I have a better provision for your HR 1, by the way, because I don't think you guys would pass no gerrymandering. I think that you like it too, and you like it too. And this is about people in power and retaining power. Now, what you could do, and I think it's constitutional. Because by the way, your rule may not be constitutional. My rule may not be constitutional either. I like your rule, by the way. I'm just not sure it would pass muster.

Depends on the court. It takes us to another problem. But I'll tell you what you should do. There should be a rule that political parties cannot control primaries. Now, the Supreme Court has ruled on this. And they have said, yeah, they can. They get to determine who's in their club, just like any other club. Ah, yes. But there is no country club running my democracy. And that's what makes this different. And it wasn't argued in that case. What was argued in the case was Brian doesn't get to tell Chris

who's allowed to be in his club. Chris gets to say who gets to be in his club. Okay, we agree on that. Okay. Yeah. That's not the issue. Congress should pass a law. Democrats should push

that the primaries cannot be closed. They have to be open. Or you do a top two, top four. Some type of ranked choice has to be involved. If you do that, I think that the American people win. I also think your party wins, by the way. But let's say it doesn't. Let's say it's neutral. That would be a huge fix for the problem we have right now, which is what? One third of the population has over 50% of the representation. And I think that other than changing the Senate, which we can't do, you're not going to change the

electoral college. Need a constitutional amendment. Unless you have a constitutional convention. Well, no, you need the national popular vote. The national popular vote interstate compact. That could be a way to circumvent the electoral college. Right, but then the states have to do it. You know what I mean? Then you're asking for states, the compact is a nice way of saying hurting cats. Yeah. And states could pull out of it. See, that's the one problem with getting rid of the filibuster. So you pass HR1 and it's got both of these things in it. And it passes by a very slim majority, but now it's the law of the land. And then you lose in the midterms, they come in and they're reversing. That's the problem of no filibuster is that you are really now in whimsy mode on a regular basis. And I fear the proposals will get more and more extreme because you have more and more of a limited window to get things done. Well, I mean,

you know, look, what was the most unpopular bill of the 2010s? It was the ACA. When Obama passed it, it led to a massive exodus of Democrats in the House and nearly cost Obama his presidency. Republicans have tried to repeal it 77 times and they've failed every time. Never tried to improve it, though. Never tried to improve it. Never tried to do a single damn thing to make it any better. And that's the space for you that people now recognize. Perhaps.

But, I mean, the risk with attacking legislation that is otherwise popular is that then you own taking it away. And even these people, look, they, they, even, even, the biggest partisans in the House and the Senate want to be elected the next term. And I remember, I remember their efforts to destroy the ACA being a death knell for a lot of these Republicans. It was one in New Jersey. It's, it's been a long time. It's been like 15 years. But was his name McCarthy? I can't remember his name exactly. The bald guy. I think he actually was in charge of one of the repeal and replace provisions. But in any case, he, uh, he, uh, he, uh, you know, a lot of these people lost their job. So sure, you can, you can immediately come into power

and try and rescind what the other party just passed. But if what the other party just passed is popular, again, I'm going to go back to my initial thesis, which is political gravity exists for these people. Support for the Chris Cuomo project comes from one skin. And one skin is really about OS1. OS1 is their big advantage. OS1 is science. Okay. And, and, And it's why one skin, I believe, has a better chance of making you look better. Why? Their OS1 peptide was specifically engineered to address these issues of senescent cells that cause the wrinkles and everything else.

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Your own premise is a little specious because if it's popular, then you're probably not going to get into power on the promise to oppose it. Right? Right now, opposition gets you power. Vote for me. I'll stop Brian for wanting to chop off all our son's peepees. Put me in and I'll stop him. I will get elected in a lot of places on that. Opposition. I'm not going to do anything except stop him. So I don't know that you win on the promise of undoing something that's really popular. And isn't that great? Isn't it great if we have a government where somebody does something popular and the opposition to something popular doesn't win? I mean,

that's how government should be. If I'm running on giving people health care and being the eliminating our status is the only industrialized country where people don't have health care and people are fed up of health care and they're fed up of co-pays, they're fed up of deductibles, they're fed up of every nickel and dime in network, out of network, fed up with all of it and they're ready for universal health care in this country. And we pass it. And we pass it. And we pass it. and people love it and you're running against it and people are saying this is something we love and you don't get elected because you're running in opposition to something that we love, that's the beauty of democracy. I mean, shouldn't that be how it is?

Yeah. I mean, it's like that right now. You know, I mean, you can run on doing things. It just doesn't work as well, right? If I say, I'm going to fix America first. I have this whole list of ideas. I'm going to, I'm going to fix what's wrong with health care. I'm going to have Mark Cuban come in and run a complete overhaul. It's going to be great. And I'm going to deal with affordability in the following three ways. And you're like, well, what I'm going to do is stop Cuomo from trying to make this country a Nazi era, fascist, you know, or whatever. And by the way, that works better. You know, and people be like, I'm afraid now. You made me afraid. I'm afraid. I'm going to vote out of fear because I vote out of

self-protection. Yeah, but it might, look, if you're doing stuff that's popular, that stuff isn't going to resonate. The reason, and this goes back to my central argument, the reason that political parties change so frequently, and the reason that Trump was able to win in 2024, is in large part, due to the ineffectiveness of a party that will more often adhere or defer to norms than about getting something done. And so my contention here is that if Democrats are in power and are unbridled by or, or, you know, not prevented from doing anything by virtue of a lot of these institutions and they're able to deliver popular legislation, legislation on the 80, on the 80 side of these 80-20 issues, then Republicans can, sure, certainly try to do the, you know, fear-mongering campaigns, the,

the boogeyman campaigns, but it's not going to work if people are supportive of their representatives and what those people are doing. So do you think but for the filibuster, Democrats would have been winning? I think the filibuster is one thing. I don't, I'm not going to blame the filibuster on everything. But I think it's one, I think it's representative of a lot of the hurdles that we allow to prevent us from doing what it is that we're willing to do. I mean, look at it in the midterms. Look at where we are in the state of play right now. Let's just bandy it about for a second. Okay. And even though again, I believe in this. Okay. I believe in fixing America first. I'm not a nativist. I am not anti-foreign involvement. I think both sides have been saying that. I'm with you. I'm

with you on that. I'm with you on that. All right. So let's talk about it. So if we want to do Fix America first, here's the case against you guys, you defend it. Okay. You want to destroy the system. You don't believe in capitalism anymore. You want, you hate the rich so much that you want to take away everybody's shit and give it to some collective so we're no longer a meritocracy. No thanks. that I reject the premise of of this hypothetical. I mean, that is, that is the position, that is the most extreme position of a fringe faction of the party. I mean, what you're basically, I don't know the different, whether it's like communism or, or socialism, but I don't, you know, look, I, I advocate for a just taxation system. I do think that the rich should pay their fair share. You know, the,

the irony of the Make America Great Again movement, of the MAGA movement is that it harkens back to a time when the top marginal tax rate was between 70 and 90%. So you want to have the prosperity without any of the means to actually get that prosperity. I'm not looking to take everybody's money and everybody's possessions. I think that we need a more just taxation system where the wealthy in this country are not paying effective tax rates of 5% while low-wage workers are paying double or triple that amount or regular middle-class. Americans are paying six or seven times. Understood.

That's what I'm advocating for. Understood and good. But you are Paul Ryan. You are a reasonable one, but you are getting your asking by your fringe. You're going to get me killed. You call me Paul Ryan on here. Man, this is another very good looking guy. Because here's the analogy, okay?

Paul Ryan was a reasonable Republican. He was a conservative. You knew what he was. There was very little crazy to it. you could disagree with all of it, but it wasn't irrational. But you now, who polls top two out of three of Democrat preference for president, AOC, and a man who is not eligible to be president, Zoran Mamdani. So that's who your party wants.

Not you. That's my fear is that we are elected. This isn't my fear, but hypothetically. That's who you're up against. You're up against your own, Brian, and they are. kicking your heinie. I think that the reason that those people are successful is because they're doing something a lot simpler.

And in large part, similar to exactly what I'm advocating for, which is getting stuff done and not letting anything stand in their way. You know, the first thing that Duran did was fill like 175,000 potholes. That's something that people can see and it's getting something done. And AOC is not going to shy away from... from fights or stances that she doesn't believe in or hot button issues, she leans in because she believes in this stuff and she's willing to fight for it. That's in large part lending itself to the thesis of what I'm arguing here, which is that we need a party that

isn't afraid of its own shadows. And that you reject more important than the actual remedies. I think you're suggesting the answer is yes. And I think you're right right now within the Democratic Party or the need for disruption. I think because it didn't make sense to me just for like a minute. Not you, this dynamic. I was like, how is Mamdani more of a fighter than Andrew Cuomo? How is AOC more impressive than Nancy Pelosi? Because in my mind, I was thinking about competency and record. But what I was missing is, that's not what they're valuing. What they're valuing is aggression. What they're valuing is animus towards the status quo. And you, Quo,

You, Pelosi, you whoever, you're part of the establishment. You're part of what has made it this way. So fuck you. I am against everything. Yeah, I like that better. That's what's winning in your party right now. And I understand why. Work for MAGA also.

And you now have more people who feel that. It's not just, yeah, it's not just winning in, fuck the establishment is not just winning on the left. It is winning in the center and on the right. And the reality is, you know, you can laugh, You can cast off this idea of saying fuck the establishment as like a shallow movement. But most of, but we do that from a position of privilege. Like most of this country can't afford a $400 emergency.

And when you have politicians come in on the left and say, we're going to fix it and nothing fucking happens. And then you have politicians on the right come in and say, we're going to fix it. And all those problems get exacerbated. I'm not surprised that people are disillusioned with the system and that the prevailing narrative becomes fuck the system, fuck anybody who seeks to entrench it, fuck the status quo, I'm going to do whatever I can, partisan affiliation be damned to get something to change here. And I think that that's what we have to recognize. I mean, we ignore that at our own peril. I agree. It's just, and I think you're 100% right about all of it. But how is it manifested in your party right now? I mean, to me,

this is like the paradox that everything you just said is right. The Democrats are perfectly positioned to just sweep in the midterms by history and by relevant dynamic. Yeah. This should happen because this is the biggest thing and Trump has absolutely made it worse. And they can say, well, only short term because the war, nobody asked for the war. You forced the war. It's still on you. The buck stops with him. You're perfectly positioned until the, The package that it comes in is the DSA. And even though I can explain it away when you're explaining you're losing and you're giving them something to escape their fate, are you worried about that? No, I'm actually not.

I am so disinterested in labels. I don't care if someone is DSA. I don't care if somebody is. Yeah, it's because it works against you. If you were, if they called themselves the neon. It's a fair criticism. You'd say neo-nationalist. Are you crazy? That's the equivalent for Americans. The reality is, I mean, does being a MAGA Republican have any adverse impact on, you know, that branding have any impact on these people's ability to get elected? Does it have any ability? It will in the midterms. It will in the midterms. Sure, but any different than a Republican if somebody who just calls themselves a Republican versus a MAGA Republican.

I would argue, yes. I think now you go to swing districts and say I'm full-on MAGERS. I think it hurts you in a way that's saying, look, I'm a Republican. I've always been a Republican. I think that you're better off that way. And I think the same thing on the left. Not because it makes as much sense as it does. Because I think MAGA is an inherently toxic thing. The DSA doesn't have to be inherently toxic, but that word as a buzzword is. Yeah. I think what's interesting about this is you and I had a conversation two years ago, ironically enough, when my first book came out. And we were talking about the word, socialism. And my argument to you was, because you said, oh, is socialism a scary word? Is socialism, you know, enough to kind of, to kind of condemn the left? And my argument was Republicans have been calling Democrats socialists for my entire life. They have been calling Republican socialists, a Democrat socialist, since Clinton years, and we were not a socialist country. They called Democrat socialist during the Obama years. We're not a socialist country. called Democrat Socialists during the Biden years, not a socialist country. And now they have,

they have so squeeze the life out of what this word actually means to the point where it doesn't even mean anything. And so they can, you know, continue to say it. But at this point, it just sounds like a buzzword. And frankly, I think people are left. But now you're proving them right because you're calling yourself socialists and you're putting out these agendas that you know won't get, not you, but that they know won't get done. I don't even understand why they're saying it, except for what you were just making another point of, which is so true, which is they're angry, they're outraged, desperate times, call for desperate measures. And if you want to go all in on destroying the status quo, this is how you do it. You change everything. So I get it,

but it worries me that it balances the scales in a way that it wouldn't be otherwise in terms of winning districts where they're not full, full left. Well, look, I think that DSA candidates can and will run and win in districts where it's appropriate for them to run and win. They're not going to win in, you know, the deep south. It is what it is. I mean, people are going to be reflective of the districts that they run in. I don't think it's a scary thing. You own your party. You own your party. See, that's what. one of the rules. This is why one of the reasons I hate the party is that you'll say, yeah, but I don't believe in that stuff. I'm not that guy. Chris and I disagree on this. We're in the same party. We're a big tent. I don't believe in the big tent. Something is going to dominate. MAGA ate the GOP. Nobody even says GOP anymore. I don't know how many people who are 20 years old

even know what it stands for, right? Yeah. And not because they're dumb, but because it's not part of our parlance. Right. The concern is the same thing's happening to the left. You will be devoured by your fringe because people are angry, just like with MAGA, and it is unsatisfying on a level because of the S in the DSA. And this nuance point, which is totally true, I know this, don't beat me up over this, people. I know social democracy and the DSA are very different things. I know. I know. I understand. One is an ideology. One's an organization. I know. But most people don't know that. And as soon as they hear the social part, they don't even want to hear the rest of the word or the explanation. That's my concern. So here's what my pushback would be to that. The difference between the extremes on the

right and the left is that the extremes on the right are looking to strip voting rights away. The extreme on the right is looking to consolidate power for Donald Trump. The extreme on the right is looking to advance the rise of climate change, advance the rise of fossil fuel companies to the detriment of climate. The extreme on the left is looking to get universal health care. Like, there is such a disparity between what the extremes on both sides are looking to do. And so it's much harder to vilify as these really spooky boogey men, this idea that when DSA candidates get into office, that they're looking to usher in the downfall of this country, when their most extreme position is universal health care.

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Spider-Man, brand-new day in theaters July 31st. Again, again, if this were an academic debate, if this were an academic setting, I think the left wins all day long. But it isn't. And, well, I'm a capitalist, though. I want a chance to get ahead. I want all these things. And you are now going to have to defend that in a way.

that I think is going to be problematic. Look, there are, what, five DSA candidates who are going to be members of Congress. Look, I'm a capitalist. I think the vast majority of the Democratic Party are capitalist as well. Again, we have had people who have advocated for democratic socialism

who are not looking to tear down the structure of the government, but are instead looking to put up guardrails to make sure that it actually works. And frankly, Chris, that's necessary. That's social democracy. It's social democracy. Yes, but in large part, what these DSA candidates are advocating for is exactly that. So look, I get that this frustrates you.

And it should frustrate you because it is an unfair painting some with all or painting all with some. I get it. But that's politics, brother. And it does concern me as somebody who wants to see change. You know, am I a DSA guy? No, I'm not a DSA guy. Am I a MAGA guy? No.

Do I think MAGA is better than DSA? No, and here's why. DSA, in my estimation, okay, is not about hating what people are. Now, some Jews will say to me, really. Okay, but it depends who we're talking about. And which DSA member we're talking about. MAGA to me was inherently inimical and xenophobic.

So to me, in a battle of the worst, I give it to MAGA is the worst, not DSA. But I don't like arguing their position because I don't like having to own any suggestion of socialism because I got to explain it and I'm losing. That's all. That's all I'm saying.

The pushback is going to be the part that's going to make this, like I get that you want to make DSA versus MAGA and so having to shoulder the baggage of your side, your respective sides, fringes is going to be, is going to be difficult. But like, also consider this. Who are the most popular politicians in America right now? Zornamondani, AOC, Bernie Sanders. So you can't make the argument that there's all this baggage to shoulder when at the same time those politicians are also the most popular. Look, Donald Trump is a fringe of his party. Within the party. Completely,

completely underwater. Well, not with his party. Do you see what I'm saying? Once you make it about all Americans, he's not underwater in his party. You know, once you make it everybody, now Zoron Mamdani and AOC are not at the top of the list. You know, now Donald Trump is not at the top of the list. Once it's everybody. For national approval, Bernie Sanders is like the most popular politician in America. As Democrats.

No, among everybody. Let's see. Go ahead. Keep making your point. What was on my wife's face? That's disgusting. I'm looking for it too. Um, yeah.

National popularity polls. Here we go. Elliot Morris does a great newsletter called Strength in Numbers. I'm going to read this is from Elliot Morris' It's the Strengthen Numbers slash Verasite poll from June 22nd of this year. Barack Obama, Bernie Sanders, Zornamondani, Schwarzenegger, Pete Buttigieg, John Ossoff, AOC, Marco Rubio, Kamala Harris, Newsom, Vance, Trump, Musk, Jeffries, Mike Johnson, Schumer, Thune, Carlson. That's going down the list. But most popular politicians on this list, Obama, Bernie, Zoran, Buttigieg, Ossov, AOC.

I think a big part of that is that the disruption is the dominant ethos and it is on the left now. Perhaps. Right? Because the right is in power. So look, you may be right. And that's okay with me because I believe that elections have consequences. Yeah. And I used to say the same thing to New York is about Rudy Giuliani. Pre-9-11, pre-9-11, because 9-11 changed everything for Rudy. Normal Rudy Giuliani. The Rudy Giuliani, whose photo I have on my childhood bedroom wall standing next to Joe Torrey,

signed by Joe Torrey wearing the Yankees, you know, the Yankees fire truck hat. Well, he really became the Yankee guy. after 9-11. But yes, he always liked the Yankees. But before that, he was in trouble. And he was in trouble because elections have consequences. And you wanted a guy who was a tough guy who wanted to prosecute everything the way he thought. And he didn't want to work with anybody.

And he was a bully. And he didn't like unions. And he was underwater in New York City until 9-11. And the moment often makes the man. And in the beginning, he was fine. But. the real battle is going to be and whether or not your book comes to fruition is going to be

what is the narrative of the midterms if it's well I went to war to stop these terrorists and you want them to win if it is an Islam versus Christian country bullshit narrative, that's a problem. If it's on the economy, I don't know how you lose

except for the boogeyman of what the remedy is. And I think you guys will have had so much opportunity to say, let me be very clear. And look, and you guys are going to have to get it together where whoever's speaking for the party can say, I'm telling you right now, I'm not looking to get rid of capitalism. And you're not going to have your more popular people

say, yes, we are. Now, Bernie Sanders will walk that line. I think AOC will walk that line. But I don't know. I don't know who bubbles up as a big shot in the midterms. And it remains to be seen. I mean, look, the reality is we don't have a quote-unquote leader of the Democratic Party right now. We don't have a standard bear.

You think Schumer's got to go? You think Jeffries has to go? I think we need young, dynamic, new leadership. I think we need new everything. I think anything that is a relic of the past is going to be, an albatross around Democrats. You like Tala Rico? Yes.

I love Tala Rico. I think he is, I have been interviewing James for years now, maybe five or six years, and he's become a friend of mine. And man, I think he is a generational talent. Yeah, I think he's, I think he's, and I don't like that people put him in the same lane, even though I'm about to do it, but only because that's the state of play. as Buttigieg, because one, I don't even know that the guy's gay. I don't even care if he's gay.

But, you know, obviously that does matter in American society. Pete? Who are you talking about? Pete, Buttigieg. Like every time they say Tala riko. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yes, people know Pete Buttigieg is gay. And now they know that Colin Yost was his college roommate. What I'm saying is they don't know about Tala Rico and they say all these things.

I don't care. I think America's moved past. He's got a girlfriend. There's like a picture of... I know. But it's like, who cares? You know what I mean? Like, to me, you lose on that one.

But I think he's better than Buttigieg. I do because here's why. He is a real Christian, okay? And I'm not saying Buttigieg, isn't it? I'm not here to judge people on that level. I think religion overall is a complete point of hypocrisy for too many who use it. But no Christian conservative is going to look at Tala Rico and say, yeah, But you're not a real one.

Yeah. Yeah, he is. Yeah. And he is so smart and savvy. I just don't know why he let his honesty get the better of him and owned that he made a mistake when he was talking about transgender in the spectrum and he was making too fine a point. I don't know why he ever said any of that. You know, because they kill you with apologies and politics. But I do wonder, is he the same as a Mamdani in your mind?

Do you believe he's about the same things in the same way? can only one of them be what the party is? I think in large part they espouse the same views in the sense that, in the sense that, look, both are seeking to deliver. I mean, what they're seeking to deliver, what they're advocating for is pretty standard fare on the left. I mean, it's making sure that people have health care. It's making sure that people have access to voting. It's making sure that people's lives are made easier. I mean, this is, there are no crazy extreme positions that either of them have advocated for in terms of what they want to do with power.

So I think it's, you know, stylistically, sure, maybe a little different, but also both dynamic, charismatic candidates and politicians and have shown a really clear ability to be able to communicate, something that is virtually non-existent on the left. and the people who have shown an ability to communicate at a bare minimum are some of the most popular politicians in this country. Number one most popular politician is Barack Obama because he can string together a sentence and make people feel something. And the fact that nobody else can do that is a condemnation and indictment of our politics. But, but, you know, it's funny that you You got to be coming from the outside right now. I don't think it can be done right now from the inside. Islamism and the specter of it, I will not call it a boogeyman. because extreme Islamism is a problem.

Is it a problem in America? No, it is not. We are not dealing with it in the way that many others in Europe already are. Do you believe it presents a problem for your party? No, I think that right now, even the candidates, even Muslim candidates, are advocating for the same thing as everybody else.

I mean, you look at Muslim Democratic candidates, who are advocating for cost of living issues, who are advocating for health care, who are advocating for affordability. I think that the right will try and paint any foreign-born or ethnic candidates as the worst fringes of what they can represent as being of that religion.

But when you listen to those candidates and what they're espousing, it is the same. thing that not only other candidates who are not Muslim are espousing, but the same thing that Americans are telling people that they're starving for, which is just to do what your shirt says, which is fix America first. And so I think that we will contend with the boogeymen that we always contend with, that we have been contending with for years, whether it's brown people or gay people or trans people or anybody else who is welcome in the tent,

in the pro-democracy coalition. But I think the onus is going to be on us to message well and on those candidates to sell themselves well, that what they're actually advocating for is to fix the problems that we're contending with, that people are telling us over and over and over again that they need fixed. Care for your skin like you care for the game.

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You know, I do a series with Mark Elias, so I am pretty damn-attuned to these threats to democracy that Trump attempts and Republicans allow him to attempt on a daily basis, whether it's trying to eliminate mail-in voting, whether it's these threats to send ICE to the polls, whether it's, you know, this specter of getting one of these Putin guys like Maduro to come out and say, you know what? Venezuela was involved in a scheme to undermine the 2020 election.

And Trump says, see, I told you, now we have a justification. I don't know that it's Maduro, but you know he's going to give a speech. And now I would normally say, yeah, but this shit is so ham-fisted that he's just going to come out and say what we already heard. I don't know that I'm right. I don't know. I'm not saying that there's anything that they can show that would be dispositive to me. I know the record to well. And I don't buy this.

No, no, no, but it's not about convincing. It's not about convincing you. It's not about convincing smart people. It's not about convincing people who are acting in good faith. It is about giving them any flimsy justification humanly possible to be able to say, now we have a pretext to be able to go in and issue all of these emergency declarations and sweeping edicts. Because after all, if I don't, then I'm committing political. malpractice because now we know that Russia or Venezuela or some other or China interfered in the

2020 election. And I as president of the United States couldn't possibly allow that to happen again. It would be malpractice on my part. And so I have no choice but to issue these sweeping edicts. I have no choice but to send ice to the polls. I have no choice but to mandate the Save America Act by executive order, whatever he's going to try to do. But all this does, I mean, like, he's not trying to convince you because you know better, but he doesn't need to convince you. You know, in the January 6th situation, we found out because of the January 6th committee that Trump had said, just say that there was fraud and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressman. He's only looking for some flimsy pretext, some justification from the outside to be able to make the case, however unconvincing it may be, to be able to do what he was going to do anyway. Yes, but remember why? Because you're right. Because people are angry.

and people are outraged and people want to reject the system and people believe the system is broken. And the irony is if, and I mean this, God forbid Trump does what you're saying right now, the only thing standing between him and ruining the democracy are the institutions. It would be the courts. They would be the last defense. And I have to say, the good news is the courts have stood up better than the courts. have stood up better than the other two branches through Trump. I'm not saying they're perfect.

Everything is imperfect. They are more imperfect now than they were before, but they have stood up and they have stood up against him more than they have not. Yeah. And I agree. And thank God. I mean, watching these district court judges and these appellate judges come in and serve as bulwarks, even judges, even, I mean, you know, I think that's giving him too much credit.

You look at people applauding them for upholding birthright citizenship. The bar cannot be that low that we're saying, oh, look, look how great this Supreme Court is, such neutral arbiters of the law. They deigned to rule that the plain text of the Constitution remains the plain text of the Constitution. Brian, they could have ruled under the same theory, okay? Birth right citizenship is absolutely the law of the land, and the context was for slaves, for enslaved people. and Congress does have the ability to modify what the, they could have said that. And there would have been no appeal taken. And several of the judges agree with that idea.

So take the win where you get it. You know, so, you know, that is, you know, because that is one of the ones that is such a difference between law and politics where people are like, yeah, that is weird. I mean, it really, it wasn't intended for what we're dealing with today. It was, oh, now it's okay to do that. You know, these are the same people who say you can never do that. So take the win. The judiciary has held up better than the other two branches. And I don't want to have another January 6 test where Mike Pence can do the absolute

minimum and see himself as a hero. But I think your book is written at the right time. I think you're raising the right questions. And I love having this conversation with you because what we both know is, You got to fix America. She needs fixing. Doesn't mean she's completely broken. Doesn't mean that we're dying, but we've got to do better.

Whatever our rate of progress is is not enough, period. And people are going to want that in the midterms, and we will watch it together, my handsome friend. Brian Tyler Cohen, I am so appreciative of your success. I'm glad you're having it. Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it. And for those who are listening, if you want to grab the book,

It is out now called The Day After, and you can find it anywhere books are sold. Anywhere. You don't have to just go to one place anywhere you want. Brian Tyler Cohen. Well, you all know him. Anybody who's watching me is a fan of his. And the day after is a book that you should read now. So you have the right question straight in your head.

Chris, I appreciate you, man. Thank you so much. Yes, I do like Brian Tyler Cohen. Why? Because I agree with him about everything. No. That's boring. Why? Because I think he cares. Because I think he's a real one. Because I think he's clever. Because I think he's charming. Because I think he's compelling. And I think the day after is a good read. How do I know? Because I spent two hours going through it, which is a lot for me because I take in information very quickly and I do it all the time because this is my job. Right. So I know how to read a book about politics. And I've seen a lot of the things and I understand a lot of the things. can get through it very quickly. And I think that this is smart. And I think he's underestimating

the power of a couple of challenges. And that makes sense because he's a partisan and he wants to win and he's a persuader. And that's good too. And it's good for you to know that. And I think he's good at it. So I hope you read the book. I hope this conversation was good in terms of helping you flesh out a little bit of what's going on and why it's going on. Thank you for subscribing and following. I still don't know why I say that when you're already watching this. Like, why wouldn't you be a subscriber. I have to do better on what I give my YouTube subscribers. I know that. I am overwhelmed with content production right now. I'm overwhelmed doing two podcasts, a radio show and a TV show. I wish I didn't have to do all of them. That's not completely true, by the way. I think that there is a

part of me that enjoys the diversity and doing different things. There's also a part of me that is frustrated by it and exhausted by it. But I'm also grateful for the opportunity to be able to do it and that each of them seems to be growing. So that's good, right? So thank you for subscribing and following. I'm trying. Thank you for giving me a chance. And thank you for commenting and thank you for being on the journey. And we are on it. We are on it. I don't know where it goes. But I know that the attitude I have towards whatever comes is let it come because if I don't control, I see the same prayer every night. You want to hear? I thank God for the merciful grace of his, merciful grace of his forgiveness. And I ask him for the ability to prepare, perform, prevent,

and protect. And that is a little bit of a, you kind of feel like you're a little targeted there. That's how I feel. Haunted, hunted. Rightly, wrongly, bothly. But it's disposition. And the journey is real. The danger is real. The challenge is real. My attitude has not changed, which is, let's get after.