The Chris Cuomo Project - Charlie Sykes on Why America’s Politics Are Broken

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

Charlie Sykes (political commentator, MSNBC contributor, and author, “How the Right Lost its Mind” and “To the Contrary” Substack Newsletter) joins Chris Cuomo to discuss how political polariz...ation and leadership failures have brought America to a breaking point. They analyze Trump’s appeal to disillusioned voters, Biden’s challenges in maintaining trust, and how both parties contribute to the erosion of democratic norms. Sykes and Cuomo explore what it will take to restore faith in leadership and foster meaningful political change. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Support our sponsors: Everyday Dose Head over to everydaydose.com/chris for 25% off plus 5 free gifts with your first order including a USB rechargeable frother, Every month after you get additional amazing free gifts with your order. Get Maine Lobster Listeners of The Chris Cuomo Project get 15% off all orders store- wide with the promo code CUOMO. That’s right—15% off the freshest lobster you’ll find anywhere. So this season, create new memories, make it extra special, and add a touch of Maine to your holiday table. Visit GetMaineLobster.com and use promo code Cuomo Shopify Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Untuckit uses. Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial period at SHOPIFY.COM/chrisc Cozy Earth Want your Cozy Earth pajamas by Christmas? Order by December 13 for free shipping! Missed it? You can still get expedited shipping until December 20 to ensure it arrives in time. Head to cozyearth.com/CHRIS now and use my exclusive code CHRIS for up to 40% off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 You want to figure out what this Biden pardon means for the Democrats and means for the Trump administration, especially the way it was rationalized. Well, I've got one of the big brains for you, my friends. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. Charlie Sykes, on the contrary, is his outlet now. He was with the bulwark for a long time. You see him on MSNBC.
Starting point is 00:00:28 He's a real conservative, but he's also a man without a country right now when it comes to his political ecosphere, right? Because if you're not a Trumper and he is a never Trumper, then you are not accepted by them. But it is a set of conservative ideals that drives his understanding of why he is so against what Biden just did and what it means for where we're going. Now, I don't
Starting point is 00:00:53 agree with all of it, but remember, conversation is the cure, not some bullshit gotcha contest. That's what we've gotten enough of. That's what, you know, the fringe is for when it comes to podcasting, to make you scared, to give you little bits of information that proves some conspiracy theory about how everything is wrong unless you listen to this person. Not here.
Starting point is 00:01:15 Let's have a conversation about what this pardon means, what it doesn't mean, how it relates to our overall dynamic of where we're headed in this new Trump administration. And let's do it right now. Support for the Chris Cuomo project comes from select quotes. Look, so much in life is uncertain. And the older I get, the more comfortable I am with my decision to have life insurance
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Starting point is 00:02:29 Go to selectquote.com slash Chris C today and you get started. Selectquote.com slash Chris C. Support for the Chris Cuomo Project comes from every day dose. Look, we all wanna perform at our best, mentally and physically. Sometimes habits don't set us up for success.
Starting point is 00:02:51 Everyday dose. It's coffee, but better than coffee. Since I started drinking everyday dose, I can get through my day and I get more consistent energy. I don't need the hits the way I did. You know, another cup, another cup, another cup. And there's not that roller coaster caffeine crash. And gut health for me is everything.
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Starting point is 00:03:55 Support for the Chris Cuomo project comes from Get Maine Lobster. Oh, the holidays, it's all about making them special, right? Well, what's more special when it comes to looking down at that plate than getting Maine lobster? I'll paint you a picture. It's Christmas Eve and all through the house, no, none of that.
Starting point is 00:04:15 Certainly not a mouse. You find a mouse in my house, you know where you're gonna find it? On a glue trap. But I'll tell you, here's what you will find. A table filled with people, talking about why they love each other, talking about what's good, talking about what's
Starting point is 00:04:25 good, laughing about what's not, and enjoying food, especially to an Italian-American family. Man, we love it. And I gotta tell you, you crack open a fresh, sweet lobster, especially like us, we're all water people. What's better than getting a taste that takes you straight to the coast of Maine? Get Maine Lobster has everything you need. Lobster rolls, lobster tails, whole lobster feast. I feel like Bubba Gump.
Starting point is 00:04:51 Plus, as a listener of the Chris Cuomo project, you get 15% off all orders store-wide with promo code CUOMO. That's right, 15% off the freshest lobster you'll find anywhere. So this season, create new memories, make it extra special by adding a touch of Maine to your holiday table. Visit GetMaineLobster.com, use the promo code QUALMO and you'll get 15% off all orders today. Charlie, how would you describe the state of play now on the heels of Biden pardoning his son, which I believe is only the first of pardons to come
Starting point is 00:05:31 to insulate him and his family from any further scrutiny. Yeah, I think we're gonna have an interesting conversation here because I'm very, very sympathetic to Joe Biden's position as a father. And I know that you've expressed that. You try to imagine if your only son was in this situation, what you would be willing to do for him. And that was my initial reaction.
Starting point is 00:05:56 I'll be honest about that. But the more I think about it, the more you look at the long-term state of play, and this is a long game, I think that this was a mistake. And I think the blowback is justifiable in a lot of ways. I think that that pardon was worse than it looks, and we can talk about that.
Starting point is 00:06:17 How? Well, I think it's worse than it looked because, first of all, I mean, look, we expect more from a president than from just your average parent. And as a father, I understand his position. As president of the United States and as a defender of certain constitutional norms, the rule of law, his own Department of Justice, he had other responsibilities. And this was a sweeping pardon.
Starting point is 00:06:44 I also would have understood, perhaps if he would have simply commuted the sentence, I think that would have been controversial, or even simply pardoned him for what he had been charged and convicted for, but he did not. This is one of the most sweeping, if not the most sweeping pardon in history. It basically immunizes his son for an 11 year period.
Starting point is 00:07:07 The only comparable presidential pardon that historians can come up with is the Nixon pardon. And I'm not sure that right now at the moment, and you asked about the state of play. So at the moment, we're about to have a president come into office with a campaign of retribution, a wrecking ball to the institutions like the rule of law and the Department of Justice. Unfortunately, what I think Joe Biden has done is he has weakened those institutions
Starting point is 00:07:36 and their credibility at the very moment when they are most vulnerable. And I think that's what kind of makes my heart sink when I think about this. The mistake is his justification that this was prosecutorial overreach. That, I think, is what put into competition or started tipping the scales the way you're suggesting. Him saying, I needed to do this because this was brought up just for political persecution instead of legitimate prosecution. Now that could arguably open a door to that being a real thing. Lawfare is real. Biden just admitted it and therefore everything that Trump does in pursuit of that should not be seen as aberrant.
Starting point is 00:08:28 Yes, I think that's part of the problem there. If he would have said, you know, he is my son, I want to protect him, you know, that's one thing. But the reality is that look, this prosecution was, I mean, by the way, I want to agree with you on that, that I think that what he did was in some ways his justification echoed and therefore validated some of the Trumpian Complaints which I don't necessarily think are always valid, but he basically did say yeah, there are Political prosecutions. Yes, the Department of Justice cannot be be trusted Even my own Department of Justice cannot be trusted to do the right thing
Starting point is 00:09:03 But I mean we need to remember some things one it was his own Department of Justice cannot be trusted to do the right thing. But I mean, we need to remember some things. One, it was his own Department of Justice that brought the charges. Initially, Hunter Biden pled guilty when that plea bargain fell apart. He was convicted by a jury of his peers. His argument of selective prosecution has been rejected by several judges, numerous judges. The legal system, you know, is still working. And Joe Biden spent most of the year saying he trusted that legal system. This was fundamental, that we trusted the rule of law, that no one was above the law,
Starting point is 00:09:36 that he was going to respect the outcome of the legal system. And then this week he basically said, never mind. And look, I don't think this emboldens Trump to do something he wouldn't otherwise do. Trump is going to do what he was going to do. But this is a long game. And there are principles. And this does set a precedent. And it does open the door for that argument that you just mentioned. Who says that Biden is better? Better than?
Starting point is 00:10:07 Than anyone. Since when is the Biden word something that you bank on? Since he entered politics lying about his academic records, since he got chased out of a presidential race for plagiarism that he denied? I mean, you know, I get the sweetness of Joe Biden. I am not looking to just openly disrespect him as a man or as a politician.
Starting point is 00:10:30 That's not productive. But where does this come from? The premise of the Republicans saying, well, he said it was his word and his word is supposed to be the Biden promise. Where is that coming from? Well, okay, Democrats are saying the same thing. I mean, I know a lot of Democrats that actually did believe him.
Starting point is 00:10:48 And as you point out, you know, the same ones that said that he was a hundred percent and that he was sharp as attack and that he hadn't lost the step and that they didn't need a primary those Democrats. So yeah, unfortunately. And that's why this is such a devastating blow to his legacy, because it is requiring everyone to reevaluate this. And I think that part of it, look, I think one of the great rules in journalism and politics is, you know, fawn not on the mighty.
Starting point is 00:11:15 Do not put your faith in princes. Politicians are who they are. Joe Biden has been who he is for a very, very long time. But because he was not Trump, I think that people projected on him certain virtues that perhaps were not warranted. Because right now people are looking back and saying, all right, so they did, they were not honest with the American people about his condition. They were not honest about what their plans were.
Starting point is 00:11:42 And many of the professions of support for the rule of law turn out to be paper thin. That's what's so dangerous is that if you are supposed to be the protector of these constitutional norms, you can't at the last minute, dispose, you know, expose yourself both to somebody who did not tell the truth and is a hypocrite. That's what's so damaging. And I think it really does hurt his legacy. The simple distinction is who's willing to be better. Charlie, that's all it is. And the Democrats made a fundamental error in judgment,
Starting point is 00:12:21 which is saying that the other guy is worse is enough. And it was not enough because grievance was on the side of the other guy. So the what's bad, what's worse, who's pissed, that was all working against Democrats as the stewards of the status quo because they were in office. And the way that they beat Trump was,
Starting point is 00:12:43 we can be better than this guy. And Biden got a pass on his own personal analysis because he wasn't Trump. That election was a referendum on Trump. This one was a referendum on the Democrats and the status quo. And it just happened to be that Trump was the guy in the slot.
Starting point is 00:13:01 I think they would have lost any of them, to be honest. Well, I think they would have lost to any other Republican. But I mean, look, I want to make it clear, and I don't think this will come as a surprise to you, Trump is worse. Everything they said about Trump is true, but you're right. That was necessary, but it was not sufficient in order to convince the electorate. And part of the problem is now we have this ratcheting down of expectations, the redefining of deviancy. And by the way, if you are going to run against someone like Trump and what Trump represents, you really ought to really try to be better. And I think people will judge you by things like this. And I think that's where Joe Biden
Starting point is 00:13:50 comes up so short right now. I think it's bigger than Biden. I can't, look, maybe I'm just some conniving Sicilian and I just can't see past my own lineage, but there's zero chance that Trump's guys don't come after Biden any way they can for being corrupt. And for a very simple reason, I do not believe it's about a law and order. I do not believe it's about accountability. I think that's all bullshit. I think it's a very simple political calculus of let's take away from them what they have on us,
Starting point is 00:14:23 which is that Trump is dirty. And the only reason we know anything about Hunter Biden, the only reason we know anything about Burisma is that it was all reaction formation to how the Democrats went after Trump, which I believe was extreme and in many cases gratuitous. But that's what's gonna happen right now. They're signaling it every way they can.
Starting point is 00:14:45 I see it as grossly hypocritical by the Republicans to be what they say they oppose. But Biden would have been really brain dead to not insulate himself. If he doesn't pardon his brother, he's a fool. The reason I think he pardoned Hunter now, instead of when you usually do it there in the Christmas gloaming,
Starting point is 00:15:08 is because he's gotta do his brother. Okay, so look, I want to concede that he's a good father. You're also right, there's, look, I don't know what Trump is gonna do on a lot of different things, but this you can be confident on. He is coming after them. And there's nothing you can do.
Starting point is 00:15:32 You know, and I wrote this after. You can pardon the guys that they need in order to kill you. So, I mean, you know, this is part of the irony. When Jack Smith and Merrick Garland dropped all the charges against Trump, you know, in order to avoid, you know, a Saturday night massacre on January 20th, whatever that's going to be, it's going to happen. There's going to be a January 20th massacre anyway,
Starting point is 00:15:51 right? We're going to see that. So the question is, you know, can you possibly insulate yourself without burning yourself down? It's sort of like, you know, it's the last days of Rome, the barbarians are there, and they're going to destroy all the icons. So what do you do? You run around and you destroy the icons before them. You know, there's, there's the flip side. There's the, I think the most dangerous thing is obeying in, in, in obeying in advance capitulation in advance, but there's also the self-destruction in advance. Let's, let's, you know, let's, you know's put out blanket pardons. I'm seeing on social media, he should pardon Liz Cheney. He should pardon Adam Kinzinger. Well, no,
Starting point is 00:16:31 because they haven't committed any crimes. And so at some point, it feels like premature capitulation by doing that. But look, I certainly understand the realism of the point you're making But I certainly understand the realism of the point you're making, that people should have no illusions about what Trump is planning to do. The question is then, should Biden pardon all sorts of people who committed no crimes whatsoever
Starting point is 00:16:59 in order to insulate themselves from it? No, because I think that would be a step down the road that you're afraid he's paving. I think this is no brainer, Charlie. If it were you, you would not only pardon your son, you'd pardon your brother, and try to figure out what they were gonna do. And I'm telling you, I think the best move,
Starting point is 00:17:18 the only way to insulate himself politically from his own people killing him, which is the ultimate weakness of the Democrats. They think it makes them better. It does nothing, but make them less competitive in a binary system. They don't get that. That's on them.
Starting point is 00:17:34 You know, and I'll watch it. I'll watch it play out. He should pardon Trump. Ooh, boy. And here's why. Here's why. Because Charlie, you already admitted it. You just said that your son was a function of prosecutorial overreach for political reasons.
Starting point is 00:17:52 On your own watch, your own DOJ, and you just admitted it. And only somebody who's completely blind with partisanship can believe that everything that happened to Trump was 100% legit and would have happened to anybody else. That is no more true about him than it is about Hunter Biden. These are some bullshit cases against Hunter, okay? Lying on a form the way he did
Starting point is 00:18:20 where there's nothing that happens afterwards as a function of that application, go find me those cases and see how they usually get disposed. This tax case, go find me cases where people don't get a fine, it's not on the civil side, there isn't some kind of dockage and it goes this way.
Starting point is 00:18:38 It's very, very rare. This was selective. Same thing with those New York cases against Trump. So pardon Trump, say this has to end, this has to end. We have to be better than this. I'm pardoning Trump. So this is what you want Biden to say? Yep.
Starting point is 00:18:55 You want Biden to basically acknowledge that all of Trump's complaints were correct. No, not all of it. That in fact, his own Department of Justice's actions were illegitimate. I don't think, by the way, see, I think you're making my point indirectly, because in effect, Biden is suggesting
Starting point is 00:19:15 a certain plausible argument along that way, but it leads to the absurd conclusion that Joe Biden should basically wipe away all of Donald Trump's sins. Not all of them. That Joe Biden should basically wipe away all of Donald Trump's sins. Not all of them. That Joe Biden should confer a kind of immunity on Donald Trump's criminality that not even the Supreme Court was willing to confer. I don't think that Joe Biden should do that.
Starting point is 00:19:38 I don't think he's going to do it. But this is, I guess, my point is that he's opened the door for that kind of thinking and logic by the way that he's done. And by the way, he did not just pardon Hunter for the gun case and the tax case, it's kind of bullshitty, right? Or the tax case. He gave him an 11 year window of complete immunity for things that we don't even know. No one has ever granted that kind of a blanket immunity in a presidential pardon. The only one is Gerald Ford with Richard
Starting point is 00:20:13 Nixon for the term of his presidency. What Joe Biden has done is he's pardoned his own son, by the way, the first president ever to pardon his own son. And he's done it for a longer period of time than ever before in presidential pardon history. So I mean, this is pretty amazing what he has done. It's what he had to do. Well, nothing else would have made sense, Charlie, because he would have left him vulnerable to what's coming. You know what they want to do. They want to say that the Bidens were on the take from Ukraine and some Russian oligarchs. And they, and you know they want to do it
Starting point is 00:20:47 because they say that's what's on the laptop when they know it's not what's on the laptop because they would have, they have the laptop, they would have acted on the laptop. Obviously they weren't afraid of acting on Hunter. So they're making that up, but it's a boogeyman that lives because they want it to. And if you were to pardon Trump,
Starting point is 00:21:07 you're forgetting who we're dealing with, Charlie. You're forgetting who we're dealing with. And we're not dealing with Charlie Sykes. We're not dealing with, even Chris Cuomo, who's a very lower form of the same mammal as Charlie Sykes. You're dealing with Donald Trump. And if you say, I'm doing something good by you, Trump, he would say to his guys, you know what, enough of this shit.
Starting point is 00:21:30 Let me pick on something else. I'm gonna get comprehensive immigration. Okay. This is not actually though a mafia transaction, Chris. This is actually the two presidents of the United States dealing with constitutional issues involving the rule of law. What's the difference, Charlie? What is the difference in where our politics are today between a mob transaction and what we're watching?
Starting point is 00:21:56 Okay, well, that's what's interesting, because I want to be the person saying, let's not make it into a mob transaction. Let's actually have a little bit higher. Have we defined DV? I think we're just suggesting we define DV and sit down. What do you call what the Democrats did with Kamala Harris? That wasn't a mob transaction?
Starting point is 00:22:14 That was politics. Oh, what's the difference? Okay, well, wait, let's stick with this. Yeah, yeah. Say, now, Donald Trump has been a serial, you know, you know, has been a one man crime syndicate for a long time. And I guess the question becomes whether or not because he was president, he is literally above the law. And we're very close to that moment. We're close to the moment where the president is the state,
Starting point is 00:22:48 rewards his friends, punishes his enemies, opens the door to any sort of lawlessness, tries to overthrow the government, all of these things. And the question is, do you wipe that away because he is also an incredibly vengeful person who will bend and twist the powers of government to get his opponents. Now, again, conceding that point sets precedence, but even leaving aside the precedent. I mean, seriously, is that really where we've come? I mean, you really think that the system, that our political culture is so thoroughly
Starting point is 00:23:29 corrupted already, that that would be an acceptable outcome? Because I don't. I want proof to the contrary. I believe that what the Democrats did to Donald Trump, which I covered, which was the job, to impeach a guy when you know you have no chance of getting him removed, okay? Zero chance. That was a political indulgence to do nothing
Starting point is 00:23:56 but distract from the interests of the people, and you were creating an impression of a standard that you never had any intention of holding up yourself. And the Democrats have proven the problem with their actions. Those New York cases, Charlie, were crap. And they only brought them to try to slow down Trump. We both know it.
Starting point is 00:24:20 And what they did with Kamala Harris is proof that they don't give a shit about any higher standard. They didn't even allow for democratic process in their own stupid little club where they can do whatever they want. Well, I don't want to go past this. You know, look, I thought it was unfortunate that the New York case, you're talking about the criminal case. Both of them. Was the first. Okay. The AG's case and Bragg's case.
Starting point is 00:24:47 You just don't find cases like it, Charlie. Why? Well, because you don't have figures like Donald Trump. You don't have people whose entire career is built on a mountain of fraud and lies and cover-ups. Commercial real estate guys do stupid, funny money. This is what it's worth if I'm borrowing against it. This is what it's worth if I'm borrowing against it. This is what it's worth if I'm paying taxes.
Starting point is 00:25:09 They play with it as an industry standard. Cases get made. Okay, this is where nobody lost money. Remember when Bill O'Reilly asked Donald Trump, well, you know, I mean, you know, your good friend Vladimir Putin murders people. And Donald Trump's answer was, well, lots of people murder people. We murder lots of people. Well, you know, I mean, you know, your good friend Vladimir Putin murders people and Donald Trump's answer was well
Starting point is 00:25:32 Lots of people murder people we murder lots of people that argument that a lot of people do it doesn't change the fact that Donald Trump has been one of the most thoroughly corrupt figures we've ever had and there was an attempt to hold him accountable for it and I I regret That they didn't move faster on the January 6th case. Now you mentioned the impeachment. The second impeachment was not a foregone conclusion after he incited a mob to violently attack the Capitol, which we ought not to memory hole. We ought not try to say that that was...
Starting point is 00:26:00 And the reality is that if Mitch McConnell would have gone this way instead of this way, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. There were 10 Republicans in the House that voted to impeach. There were seven Republican United States senators who voted to convict. This was remarkable. I don't think that was a distraction, that impeachment.
Starting point is 00:26:24 You know, at some point- No, the first one was. I mean, we really, we are honest. I don't think that was a distraction, that impeachment. At some point. No, the first one was. I mean, we really, we are honest. And the first one was, Charlie, and the first one led to the second one. That's my argument. And my other argument, and then I'll give it back to you,
Starting point is 00:26:36 is if a fat guy is telling you that an obese guy needs to lose weight and is disgusting. The reasonable person says, all right, I get it, the obese guy, that's pretty unhealthy. But you, Chubby, should not be pointing at him. Worry about yourself. That is how people process Democrats and now their new allies like Charlie Sykes saying what you're saying about Trump. They say, we know what Trump is. You're not telling us anything we don't know.
Starting point is 00:27:13 But you guys are lesser versions of him and you get away with it all the time. And now you want to pretend that we need to have a standard? You guys have been doing nothing but abusing the standard and I wanna burn it down. And this guy, as flawed as he is, he's willing to do that. And that's all I need from him. They've been making this argument though, for the last decade. This is nothing new.
Starting point is 00:27:34 I mean, I lived through the rise of what about-ism, which is that whatever a crime you could point out that Donald Trump was committing, well, what about Hillary? What about? So the what about-ism is making a comeback here. But again, going back to the original conversation about the Joe Biden pardoned everything,
Starting point is 00:27:55 that's why I am so disillusioned by it because it brings us back to that point saying, well, you've been lecturing us all this time. Look at what you have been doing. By the way, just the first impeachment, which never had any chance of going anywhere, let's remember it was Donald Trump using the power of the presidency
Starting point is 00:28:15 to try to coerce Volodymyr Zelensky into giving him dirt on Joe Biden and his sons. So in many ways, we have this complete circle now. That whole incident can't be separated from what Joe Biden just did, which was to immunize him. But there's the president of the United States telling the president of Ukraine, suggesting that the shipment of weapons
Starting point is 00:28:40 might be dependent on whether he digs up dirt on a political opponent. Again, we've memory hold so much about Donald Trump because the zone is so flooded with his shit. There are so many lies. I mean, there's just so much that even I do this for a living, I have to like keep notes. Do you remember this?
Starting point is 00:29:03 Remember when he did this? Do you remember the people who died because he mishandled COVID. Do you remember, et cetera, et cetera. So this is why it is important that if you want to say, democracy's on the ballot and democracy's on the ballot, the rule of law is on the ballot, you don't then do it with what Joe Biden has just done. I get it. I totally agree with you. Because guys like it with Joe Biden has just done. I get it.
Starting point is 00:29:25 I totally agree with you. Guys like me are going, what the fuck? I totally agree. I totally agree. The problem is you're wrong, Charlie. They are not better. They're just not as bad. And that is not enough for the American people anymore.
Starting point is 00:29:42 Now you can say, well, hold on a second, hold on. You're saying that the Democrats are in the hole because they are not as bad as Trump, but that's not enough anymore, but then why would people vote for Trump? Wouldn't they vote for what they perceive as better? They are, they're voting for disrupting all of it. Yeah, but why would they pick him as a change agent?
Starting point is 00:30:08 Because that is the psychology at play when you are desperate for an outsider, someone who is removed from the dynamic. The only other choice they had on that level was Rameswamy and Kennedy. And Kennedy was a mixed bag, because he's like insider, what is more inside than the name Kennedy.
Starting point is 00:30:31 And he was really a Democrat, and then he's got all this other kooky shit. So this was the only pragmatic choice for people who just want to burn it all down. Well, yes, I mean, but Greg, your sentence there, you know, burning it all down is not always pragmatic. I mean, you know, pragmatic people who want change and get things done had options. Look, they don't believe that there'll be change.
Starting point is 00:30:56 There's never been any change, Charlie. Well, history would disagree. Point it out to me. In the last 20 years, what has changed in a way that would give people hope that there is better available within the process and the culture? Well, we can go down a rabbit hole there. But you don't like any of my suggestions.
Starting point is 00:31:21 You call them all rabbit holes. Well, no, I've only used the return rabbit hole once. Yeah, but you use memory hole. Memory hole, rabbit hole, I'm seeing the same thing. Yeah, same thing. No, I make a distinction there. No, I mean, just the world, whether you're talking about medicine
Starting point is 00:31:40 or technology or prosperity, the world has gotten better. Now, are we about to become retrograde? It is certainly possible that we have, look, Republican voters, Republicans, head agency, Republican leaders, head agency. There were off ramps to Donald Trump, but clearly he won the election.
Starting point is 00:32:01 But let me, can I just pull back? Because one of the things that frustrates me about modern punditry, and I'm not talking about you, is that the, somehow, you know, the election is, you know, Vox Populi is the voice of God. Well, no, at some point, and I'm more comfortable about doing this as a never-Trump, which means I'm used to losing and being irrelevant,
Starting point is 00:32:21 is to saying, I don't care if 70% of the voters think X, if it is fundamentally wrong, if it is immoral, if it is dishonest, then we ought to speak out against it. There are things that at the moment, in the heat of the moment, you're willing to accept that later, you know, you can look back on and go, you know, that was a mistake. We were wrong. We got caught up in the emotion of the moment and the divisions of the moment. But it was wrong.
Starting point is 00:32:51 Donald Trump represents something off the normal scale. Now I am not. I've been doing this a long time. You've been doing this a long time. I don't have any illusions about the character of politicians or anything, but. I don't have any illusions about the character of politicians or anything, but normally it's like this, right? There's the range of good and bad. Donald Trump is off that chart.
Starting point is 00:33:14 And I think that that's something that we need to acknowledge. And it says something about our political culture, that the voters did ultimately decide that that was the only alternative because they had to buy, you know, adjust their standards dramatically. You and I both know that almost on a daily basis, Donald Trump said or did something that 20 years ago, 30 years ago would have been instantly disqualifying. And so in many ways we've gotten better. In many ways we have back, you know, there's been some backsliding.
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Starting point is 00:36:03 from the Chris Cuomo Project podcast. It'll help us keep doing business. Hard times make strong people. Strong people make good times. Good times make weak people. Weak people make hard times. We are in the weak people make hard times phase of our cultural development, I would suggest. And I see signs of it all over the place,
Starting point is 00:36:26 not just in the embodiment of Trump. And I think that you have to zero in on this kind of meta effect of why Joe Rogan has an audience. Beyond the idea that he has a big platform for whatever reason that he does, and he gets great guests because they want the reach so they can sell whatever they're doing, that makes sense. But why does Rogan get defended?
Starting point is 00:36:56 Why does Trump get mitigated? Why do people now just default? Look at how we're vetting Hegseth, Cash, Patel, obviously Gates and anybody else that the insiders don't like. It's all exclusively in the negative. And that is what knits it all together for me, Charlie, is that what we're seeing is this is where a zero sum binary battle to the bottom takes you. Where you have people now listening to Joe Rogan, who
Starting point is 00:37:36 is not a thought leader, okay? He's authentic. He's a conversationalist. He doesn't know a lot of things that he's talking about when it comes to politics and policy. He will admit that he's admitting it less and less now. But why? Because they want something that is outside the norm. And they have been weaned onto nothing but negative assessments.
Starting point is 00:38:03 Pete Hagseth, I have no idea why they see a positive in him because nobody has explained it to me. Same thing with Cash Patel. Why? Why? I wasn't sure where you were going there. Well, it's all negative all the time. And this is where it gets you.
Starting point is 00:38:18 That the idea of, well, they're worse. People are exhausted by it. Here's how I know I have to be right, Charlie. The Democrats lost the election, not because Trump built a new coalition. That's not what happened. He had some demographic shifts in his favor, yes. And the Democrats did not.
Starting point is 00:38:37 The Democrats lost because they stayed home. There were, this is, I can't remember the last presidential election we had where there were fewer votes than the one before it. Yes, we had a lot of juiced voting during the pandemic period. We were trying to get people to vote, much more because of the restrictions.
Starting point is 00:38:53 But why do you think the Democrats stayed home, Charlie? Because in that answer, I believe is your overall answer. Yeah, I mean, at some point you have to say, this is how I'm making your life better. This is what I am doing for you. And I think it always comes down to, are you on my side? Do you understand people like me? Can we just go back though,
Starting point is 00:39:17 because I wanna just clarify where we're going on some of those appointments. I mean, the Pete Hegseth, you know, Cash Patel, Matt Gaetz. I mean, these are fucking absurd appointments, right? I mean, these are big middle fingers to, I think all of the institutions, they are beyond the pale. They're, I actually was on doing one of the cable shows
Starting point is 00:39:39 yesterday and, you know, reading the latest story about Pete Hegseth's drinking and everything. And it's like, wow, just wow. What the notion that we're thinking about putting this man in charge of the three million men and women of the Department of Defense in charge of the most powerful military is just so obscenely stupid. And I think that to sort of take a deep breath here, you know, have we reached a point?
Starting point is 00:40:01 I mean, you know, have we reached a point where America thinks that's acceptable, that this is a good idea? It's such a complete insult to the military. It's an insult to the people in law enforcement, the first responders, you know, to do this sort of thing. So there is something breathtaking. And I do wonder whether or not, and we'll find out, whether or not Donald Trump is misreading his non-mandate here, he did win the election, but whether he's misreading,
Starting point is 00:40:32 because you and I both know people who say, I wanna burn it all down, but then when you get specific, do you wanna cut this, do you wanna cut this, do you wanna eliminate this, do you really wanna do this? They go, no. And I do wonder whether there's just an obscene overreach going on right now. And that's another reason why I think the Democrats
Starting point is 00:40:51 should stop doing stupid things. Well, somebody's gotta be better. Somebody's gotta be better. And that was not the tact that the Democrats took because of the measuring stick that people like me are only too willing to apply, which is, can I find some shit on Charlie that will embarrass him, that will hurt him personally? That's the only vetting we do.
Starting point is 00:41:19 I mean, listen to the conversation, Charlie Hegseth, his drinking, his, here's my very crude feeling about it. I don't give a fuck about what somebody does in their personal life, unless it affects their performance, okay? Now, if the guy is a raging, if the guy is a raging addict, okay, now we're talking. But that is not- He's a raging asshole and okay, now we're talking. But that is not-
Starting point is 00:41:46 He's a raging asshole and an incompetent one. But then everybody's disqualified, Charlie. Well, it does affect his job. Nobody survives the scrutiny is what I'm saying. Nobody survives the scrutiny anymore. That's why all these great people in our society won't get involved. Because they're gonna find something on you. Cash Patel, Pete Hegseth, Matt Gaetz are not the great people in our society. The
Starting point is 00:42:10 fact that you point out that Pete Hegseth is a guy who, by the way, it has affected his performance. He was removed from his position running the only organizations he's ever run because his misconduct was so egregious. This is a guy who's so awful. His own mom is saying he's a skeevy-chode. I mean, come on. So we do need to have, I think, legitimate, and I mean, legitimate vetting, and I also think, and I'm a deep believer in this,
Starting point is 00:42:38 that we can't have a standard of absolute purity. Human beings are complex. They are a mixture of good and bad, or weak and strong. And that we ought to have a weak foundation. All you do is dig for the bad stuff, Charlie. I've never heard of balancing. Every article that is about everybody has a headline that kills you.
Starting point is 00:42:56 Then you have two, three paragraphs of why they're killing you, which is not as good as the headline, but it's bad. And then five graphs down, there'll be a balancing statement just so that you don't get sued. That's where we are. That's why you get Cash Patel.
Starting point is 00:43:12 You get Cash Patel because you're asking for people to pick people who, yeah, they have tons of marks all over them because that's all you're looking for. So let me make it easy for you. And I'm gonna pick them anyway, because they have an offsetting virtue that matters more to me than all the stuff
Starting point is 00:43:29 that you say about everybody, because everybody gets torn down. Okay, that's the explanation. There's no one that they could have picked that would have been more plausible than Casper Tell. I mean, you look through, I noticed like lots of qualified people out there, people who
Starting point is 00:43:45 in fact have survived scrutiny because they are smart, they are decent, they are honorable, they are effective. And our government has been filled with them. Now have they also been filled with a lot of idiots? Yeah, you know, people who haven't passed it. But this is one of the things, look, you know, when when you put forth absurd appointments, obscenely absurd appointments like Gates and in Cash Patel and Peter Heggett, you ought to expect negativity because that's what the record is.
Starting point is 00:44:16 That's what we, first of all, that's what the media is supposed to do is to hold people accountable. Especially if you're not going to have an actual legitimate vetting like by the FBI or something, you're going to get this sort of thing. But I am afraid that because you have people who are so grotesquely disqualified from office, that what's happening is the defining of deviancy down that we no longer expect competence and virtue in the people that we name. As you keep lowering, lowering, lowering. I mean, the fact that, okay, Matt Gaetz was a ridiculous appointment for attorney general.
Starting point is 00:44:51 So, you know, he's eliminated. And then what does Trump do? He puts in somebody who is marginally less absurdly disqualifying, you know, Pam Bondi. And so what happens is we keep lowering and lowering our expectations. And I think that gets you to the kind of point where you're talking about where people have lost all faith, because if you think that everybody, everybody is awful,
Starting point is 00:45:16 everybody's a crook, then, frankly, how does democracy move forward, right? Because what what is what is the point, then we have no trust in our institutions, we have no trust in anything we hear. We don't care whether it's true, or whether it's false, or whether it's virtuous, or it's not. We don't care about character anymore. Well, if your point is that we're already there, that's one of my great fears, because that's the road we're on. I think that's exactly where we are, and I think that that's what this election was about. And I think that the Democrats stayed home because they were embarrassed by their own party and the perfidy that was completely on display.
Starting point is 00:45:57 A woman who no Democrat had anything good to say about. And you know I'm right, Charlie. Nobody, when Biden said he was gonna run for a second term, which was ludicrous, said, no, no, no, no, no. We got Harris. Nobody. And then all of a sudden, just because you got to beat Trump, she's black female Jesus.
Starting point is 00:46:21 And then when I say that, I get called a racist? I mean, this is where we are and that's why Trump won. And I'm telling you, you're missing something on this, Charlie, you're right on the principle, but you have to look at it through the lens of what is beating you. And you can't just dismiss it as irrational. Cash Patel is all of these questionable things.
Starting point is 00:46:47 He is also ride or die for Donald Trump. And that is the offsetting virtue that matters to their voters because they believe they are in an us versus them war and their warriors are imperfect. Yeah, they get it. But they are loyal. First of all, I don't believe that the voters think that about federal law enforcement necessarily. But you are right. The overriding virtue of Cash Patel is loyalty, not to the Constitution,
Starting point is 00:47:20 not to the rule of law, not to the institution or its traditions, his loyalty is to the man, is to Donald Trump and whatever Donald Trump wants to do. And that is not a virtue, that is the threat. That Donald Trump has taken the word loyalty and he's made it all about himself. He is not looking for people who are again, loyal to the idea of America, to the United States.
Starting point is 00:47:46 I mean, I say this as somebody that knows people in the military, knows people in the Department of Justice, flawed people, but have this long, this deep sense of loyalty, not to an individual. And this is what bothers me about him, because he's surrounding himself with people who he knows will never say no to him. We'll never see, Mr. President, that would violate the law. Mr. President, you cannot do that.
Starting point is 00:48:14 And Trump made, you know, you can imagine the conversation, Mr. President, if you did that, it would violate the law. And the president would say, fuck that. I will just pardon myself. I will pardon you. There is the law. And then the president would say, fuck that, I will just pardon myself, I will pardon you. There is no law. So to put people who don't care about the law, who have personal loyalty
Starting point is 00:48:34 in charge of these vastly powerful organizations, this is dangerous. And this is a uniquely dangerous situation. Unless you flip the supposition, which is the danger is the institutions, that they have been corrupted by culture, but also a binary system of advantage. And that's how we've gotten here. And they want people who are going to go in there and change them.
Starting point is 00:49:02 And everything that you're pointing to as virtues, they see as part of the vice structure. They don't think that about federal law enforcement. Yeah, they do. That's exactly what they think about federal law enforcement. Well, MAGA loyalists do. MAGA loyalists just won the popular vote in this country. No, Donald Trump did.
Starting point is 00:49:23 See, I think this is the misinterpretation, is to assume that the people who came out and voted, because I think your earlier analysis was correct, that this is a change election. People were taking out their frustrations. They were upset about inflation. They don't think that there's change. They vote, yeah, we want to try something different. Does that mean that they have now internalized all of the agenda of project 2025? Does that mean that they want the Department of... Do you think that the people really want to spend the next six months doing what you've predicted they're going to be doing, which is a campaign of political retribution? No.
Starting point is 00:50:03 Did they sign up for that? I think it'll backfire. Okay. Okay, well see, so they didn't say that they wanted. Basically, I mean, you can see that Donald Trump is sitting down there. Who will be my instruments of revenge? Because that is what I am going to prioritize. Did voters vote for that?
Starting point is 00:50:20 I probably think that the majority did not. Now look, and Charlie, you're not on the list. I am. So if he's gonna go after people, I guarantee you I'll be one of the people that they go after. And I'm okay with that, because that's what I signed up for. I am spoiling for that kind of fight. And we'll see where it goes, and we'll see how he wants to play it.
Starting point is 00:50:44 And I do believe that's why his people reach out to me as often as they do right now. They're trying to get a feel for where they're going to have to target and how they're going to target. And you know, I'm an easy target because the media loves to eat its own. The left loves to eat its own. And the right only protects its own. So, you know, I used to feel bad for guys like you because I'd be like, well, this guy's like a real conservative and now he's got like nowhere to go because if you're a conservative and you don't like Trump, you're not a conservative anymore, that sucks.
Starting point is 00:51:15 But I feel even worse for guys like me because I refuse to give a nod to the bullshit that either of these sides are trying to convince themselves of because I know what the salvation for the process is. I know it. I'm just watching it develop, and it's just happening too slowly for me and for all of us. And it is the rejection of the parties
Starting point is 00:51:36 and the birth of the independent voter movement. This is the first election where more people said, I'm an independent than said they were a Democrat when they voted in the presidential election. Now, a lot of them were probably people who left the Democratic Party in a fit of pique. They were equal to the number of people who said they were Republican.
Starting point is 00:51:57 The more people leave the parties, leave the idea of group loyalty and become just straight up critical thinkers like George Carlin was begging people to, right, for a generation. That is the salvation because nothing changes if nobody's willing to be better, Charlie. And Biden was never better.
Starting point is 00:52:20 Biden was never better, okay? He was just better. He was just not as bad as Trump, but that doesn't give you the right to say that you're good. The fact that you're not as bad as me doesn't mean that you're good. And that's what Democrats need to be, or whoever. Whoever wants to beat what is out there right now
Starting point is 00:52:42 needs to be demonstrably better and probably not from the system right now. Okay, so I very much agree with this. So let me give you two unpopular opinions here though. Number one, because you brought up Kamala Harris several times, as you know, I burned all the boats and supported Kamala Harris. I was one of those who was a Kamala Harris skeptic.
Starting point is 00:53:10 I was one of those who probably bought the idea that there was no Plan B. So I'm in that, which is why when Joe Biden came out and did that debate, I felt really misled about all of this because clearly, the original sin is his notion that he could run for reelection. Having said that, I actually, and this is going to be a very unpopular opinion, I think she was a much better candidate than I expected. I think she ran a close to flawless campaign, but given the nature of the Democratic Party, given her association with a toxically unpopular
Starting point is 00:53:46 regime, you know, regime, I wasn't going to say regime, incumbent, there was no way that she was going to be able to pull this off in retrospect. But having said that, this is why I think we have to break from this binary world. And I guess because I have kind of a foot in both worlds, these alternative reality silos that both the left and the right have are just incredible. So, you know, you go over to, you know, Twitter and, you know, it's one, you know, cesspool of cancel culture. I worry about blue sky becoming the different version
Starting point is 00:54:24 of all of that. And this sort of the moral relativism that people inevitably buy into when it's all about the team. Because if it's all about the team and party loyalty, then you're going to eat a shit sandwich all the time. And then when you go out to people and say, hey, look, the know, the other guy, you know, is serving you shit sandwiches. People are going to go whatever. So I mean, I, I don't know how to get there though. I don't know how to break people because as you have undoubtedly noticed, people want to hear what they want to hear. People and so much of the media is now become about audience service, right? There's that audience capture and people in their bubbles insist on having all of their prior prejudices and ideas validated all the time.
Starting point is 00:55:14 They don't want to hear. They don't want to hear bad news. They don't want to hear their opinions challenged. And so this is why what I've seen happening since, say, 2015, especially accelerating, has been this just sort of hermetically sealing off of people from other points of view. And so, for example, I'm getting into speaking of rabbit holes. So I think one of the things that killed Kamala Harris in this campaign, and a lot of Democrats recognize it, but a lot of progressives don't, the whole transgender issue.
Starting point is 00:55:53 I live here in Wisconsin. You could not turn on any television without pounding, pounding, pounding. Trump is for us, she is for they and them, and transgender surgeries and prisons and They never answered that and in part they couldn't answer it Because they were afraid of their activist base turning on them You know if they if they if they deviated from the transgender agenda and on places like as you know
Starting point is 00:56:20 I'm a contributor MSNBC. I don't even remember having it come up as a conversation. That hey, this is something the Democrats need to talk about, the Democrats need to come up with a response for. So in some ways the Democrats are trapped by their own interest groups and Kamala Harris just was not able to navigate that. That's the binary structure.
Starting point is 00:56:41 I think if they had had Shapiro and Westmore, they would have run away with the election. Now, of course, it's completely speculative, but I just think they were way stronger candidates. I think that they would have appealed in a way that would have checked boxes. She never could. And, but that all never happened, so it doesn't really matter.
Starting point is 00:57:01 You're 100% right about the trans issue, and when you don't tell your own story, you allow the other side to tell it for you and they're gonna exaggerate it. And it's gonna end with you dying. And that's what they did with transgender. And the left is held hostage by a flank, but it is bigger than that.
Starting point is 00:57:19 And it's something that has to be consistently given voice and it just sounds so weak, but that's unfortunate. The reason that I believe Jesus had to be crucified was there is such a vulnerability. There is such a demonstrable weakness in being better and virtue. It is way easier to be tough and hard and mean and base. And look, my father, everybody lionizes their own
Starting point is 00:57:54 and I am very careful not to do that. I'm very aware of who my father was, who my brother is, who I am, who my sisters are. I get it, okay? Like you say, I have a foot in both also. I know what it's like to be examiner and the examined. I'm telling you, Charlie, I don't know how well you followed my father.
Starting point is 00:58:18 You do not have Democrats like him today. And I have these punk ass bitch Democrats telling me that I don't know what their party is and that I don't understand. They're telling Mario Cuomo's son that I don't understand what the Democratic Party is about and why they're better. And they are clueless as are their friends in the media,
Starting point is 00:58:46 okay, who have been given power and platform they do not deserve. And not because of race, but because of pedigree and experience. We have all these people who are professionals who've never worked around politicians. They've never been around a campaign when there's not a camera on.
Starting point is 00:59:05 They don't know any of these people anymore. They're just professional yappers. And it's the negativity, Charlie. You can't look past it. It's everything. Nobody is a slogan deep on positivity. Nobody. It is all why the other side is worse.
Starting point is 00:59:29 And that is why Trump is enough for them. Because, you know, it's like McCain used to say, you know what happens when you get in the mud with a pig, right? You get dirty and he likes it. And the pig loves it. And that's what has to change. Look, Trump is gonna give you guys tons of opportunities
Starting point is 00:59:49 to criticize him. The mistake will be- And I will take them. Attacking what he does. That will be the mistake. The right response will be to say what's better. Constantly. Make it as much of an echo as the he sucks messaging
Starting point is 01:00:07 is. So this is why, circling back, why I think that what Joe Biden just did is so damaging because when Donald Trump comes into office on January 20th, what is he going to do? What is the first thing he's going to do? The's, you know, the oath will have been given and then he's going to pardon many of the January 6th rioters, the people who attacked the cops and everything. And I think that to your point, yes, I think people ought to criticize that, you know,
Starting point is 01:00:38 but also you have to say, what is better than that is to have confidence in the criminal justice system, to hold people accountable for their behavior. Joe Biden has just undermined that. This is a better approach. I agree. I agree. But I don't think that's the right response. Because the most of the people don't give a shit about him
Starting point is 01:01:02 pardoning the January 6th people. They get what it was. Once again, the Democrats overplayed the situation. The truth is enough. And we keep forgetting that. So they called it an insurrection, not an insurrection. That's why nobody was charged with insurrection. He had some seditious conspiracy,
Starting point is 01:01:21 but there's a law called insurrection and they didn't charge it for a reason. But you guys kept calling it that, that was a mistake and you lost leverage. And you can say, yeah, but potato potato, but you were in a battle to the bottom. The right move when he pardons the January six people is to say, what about immigration?
Starting point is 01:01:40 What are you doing for grocery prices? Oh, I'm gonna do that too. Yeah, but you didn't. You just came out of the box and did something that doesn't make anything better for the majority. I think that they can walk and chew gum at the same time. No, they can't. They can't.
Starting point is 01:01:55 They can't, Charlie. And we say that all the time. And anybody who's ever said that to you has not been doing it. Think about it. Anybody who's ever said to you in politics, well, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Show me.
Starting point is 01:02:08 They never do it. They can barely raise the debt ceiling. Oh, okay. Say, no, here's a question that is gonna come off a little bit snarkier than I intended to, but it's a question that I use all the time. Well, at least you know that going into it. Right, right, right.
Starting point is 01:02:24 I do, I understand. So you're saying that, you know, overplayed the, you know, the we, because I've been a big critic of January 6th and have talked about it a lot. You say that the public doesn't care about it. And I guess one of my questions is, and I think this is one of these philosophical questions
Starting point is 01:02:44 that I have learned from the Stoics. So what? Sometimes okay, you know, I am not going to decide how I feel about this based on the poll results. This was an attack on the US Capitol and attempt to overturn the election. Yes, it was. This was a constitutional, you know, an inch away from the worst constitutional crisis in our history since the Civil War.
Starting point is 01:03:10 So I really don't care if voters in Kansas didn't care. I care. I'm going to decide what I care about and what I talk about. So, you know, let's separate out here because we're talking about, you know, what Democrats should say. I am not a Democrat. I am going to be one of the people who is going to be talking about this and writing about this.
Starting point is 01:03:33 I think your point, by the way, is that, and I think this is the big flaw of the Trump presidency, of what's about to happen, is that he will be obsessing about things that do not affect people's lives. They don't solve any problems. For example, what is he doing about the crisis in education in America today? Who's actually doing anything to raise academic performance or close the racial achievement gap?
Starting point is 01:04:02 We're not even talking about these things, much less talking about the price of eggs. But I do think that at some point, in order to get to that independent voter you're talking about, we need to sort of tune out the polls and everything and go, what is right, what is wrong, what do I think? I agree.
Starting point is 01:04:22 And if someone says, well, no one cares about what you think, my response is, so what? This is what I think. I agree. This is what's going on. The Stoics gave you a corollary concern that you haven't stated, and it is more important than the first one that you do.
Starting point is 01:04:35 So what? Yes. What's the corollary concern? Now what? That is, that's the couplet that Aurelius got from Zeno. There are only two questions. When anything happens to you in life, because you have very little control
Starting point is 01:04:53 over what actually happens, but you have 100% control over what? Your ability to react to that thing, what it means to you. That's why they say things that are so hard to penetrate the weak mind like mine, like no one can hurt you. What do you mean? I get punched in the face as a hobby.
Starting point is 01:05:09 Yeah, but whether you're injured or not is your description. Whether you're offended or not is your description. It's your decision. So, so what? You don't care about January 6th. I'm not saying they don't care. I'm saying it's baked in. And hearing that it's bad,
Starting point is 01:05:24 they're more worried about their own lives. Ah! So now what? And that's the opportunity space. Whatever Trump does is gonna leave a yawning gap of now what? Because they're gonna be very discreet agendas. What do you do about education?
Starting point is 01:05:39 You talk about transgender. That's gonna be unsatisfying for people with kids. Now, they're gonna be somewhat mollified if they were convinced that people are gonna tell their kids that they need to chop off their peepees. Okay, fine, but that's a subset. If you talk about what matters and you have ideas, you're now in the operative plane of the only thing
Starting point is 01:06:04 that gets you out of the situation you're in right now, which is being obsessed with now what? Okay, so Chris, first of all, I would be remiss if I did not give you serious props for the Zeno Aurelius reference, okay? I mean, how many podcasts being recorded today actually talk about Zeno and his influence on Marcus Aurelius?
Starting point is 01:06:30 I mean, well done. I feel like we can drop the mic now. I'll tell you what, if life were a written test, I would not just get a 100, I would get whatever the bonus points are on the back of the page that I never read as a student because I was just trying to pass. The practical exam kicks my ass nine times out of 10, Charlie.
Starting point is 01:06:52 My frustration is not unlike Neo and the Matrix, all I see is the code. I've lived this my entire life. I understand exactly, I could have made a fortune on this election. I knew that it was Trump's to lose eight, nine months ago. And that was when I just knew that people were lying about Biden. Now, was I wrong not to say that I think Biden is,
Starting point is 01:07:19 what they say in Italian, mezza stuna, that he is half dumb? No, I don't regret not saying that more. Why? I was lying, I was covering. No, I was not lying, I was not covering, I was not sure. And most of my information and observations were confidential. They were coming from sources. I don't have direct contact with Biden
Starting point is 01:07:47 ever since he went bad on my brother. I haven't heard from him. So it was confidential sources telling me things that I advanced within my own understanding as they came into comparison or contrast with what was reportable. Because also, Charlie, as you and I know, and people don't know enough at home, but they should,
Starting point is 01:08:12 people lie to you. Confidential sources lie to you too, or people get shit wrong all the time. And they think it's true, but then it's not. So I have seen where we are. I see why we are where we are. I understand it's not. So I have seen where we are. I see why we are where we are. I understand it very well. I got a lot of Trump people in my life.
Starting point is 01:08:30 And I'll tell you what, only one of them is impressed with Trump personally, other than with his resilience and his ability to work the system. Only one of them, of well over a dozen people who felt this was the only way they could vote. And I understand what it is, and it's not because they're bigots, Charlie.
Starting point is 01:08:56 And if the left and the media don't get off that kick, that every time somebody disagrees with what they say or thinks that Trump is on to something, they're a bigot. I think that I don't even think that we're at maybe close to midpoint of how many losses the left is going to take. I think they're going to lose every state house, every one of them. Because if you can't get to a place where you're offering regular people
Starting point is 01:09:29 something that sounds better, you're just gonna keep boots. And- Well, you know, politics is in cycles. And I certainly, and you've been doing this a long time, and after a defeat like this, it feels like it's going to be forever, and it seldom is. But let me go back to this thing about the bigotry,
Starting point is 01:09:50 because this is complicated. And as a long time conservative talk show host, I lived through that period where the left accused everyone, everyone of being a racist. George H.W. Bush was a racist, Mitt Romney was a racist, John McCain was a racist, I was a racist,
Starting point is 01:10:09 whatever position you disagreed with. And I think that at a certain point, people got numbed out about it, got numb. And I think that it has lost all of that. In fact, I don't know if you probably missed it, but when I actually hosted something with Kamala Harris and the New York Times did a big story about a word I had used
Starting point is 01:10:34 15 years ago once on my radio show, you know, the Rachel Ian set is it's like, and it was like kind of the really guys, you're going gonna keep throwing this out. But here's the problem. Donald Trump did run the most bigoted campaign we have ever seen. The whole Haitians eating dogs and cats. The kinds of, you know, great replacement theory. The problem is separating out the really toxic stuff from this years and years and years of accusing everyone you disagree with.
Starting point is 01:11:08 Yes. And, and, and, and you know what? This is something that it's a message that I think progressives have a very hard time understanding that if everything is a racist is racist, then nothing is racist. So you know, I mean, I was in the position of, you know, the position of making the argument that you're talking about. I mean, we were so sick and tired. If you were in favor of school choice, you were a racist, you were a fascist. Seriously, tax cuts, you were a racist, you were a fascist.
Starting point is 01:11:36 So when the real racist and quasi-fascist came along, people say, well, wait, that is, people are going, yeah, yeah, we've been hearing that for a generation. And I think that's part of the problem. So, Donald Trump engaged in the kind of speech that would have been regarded as breathtakingly awful in the Republican Party of say 1988. But now Republicans just brush it off. And I, but I worry about how we move
Starting point is 01:12:03 the window of acceptability. And I don't know how to separate this out. By being better, by being people like Westmore and Shapiro who use a different level, Ben Sasse wherever he went, there are guys on the right like that too. Now a lot of them have had to make much harder decisions because they'll get killed by Trump.
Starting point is 01:12:23 I mean, I just had his guy Bossie last night say, if you don't vote for all his picks, we'll primary you. And look, that's what he should be saying, but you know, Crenshaw, you know, there are guys who just try to hold a different standard. People get upset at me. Why won't you call him a racist? Why won't you say this about her?
Starting point is 01:12:44 I don't judge people personally when I'm talking about their professional characteristics unless that characteristic goes directly to what they're being asked to do. If somebody were a racist- Donald Trump is being asked to be president of the United States and he engaged in overtly racist comments and statements and themes in his campaign.
Starting point is 01:13:11 I understand and appreciate that. That's not what I'm talking about. And we ought to look very clearly at that. I'm talking about a suit about paying women to be quiet about his affairs. 500 women coming up with accounts that nobody feels must be corroborated and all of that is done to the exclusion of any other kind of analysis about what might matter to people. This is our own doing. We did this. And well, what are you specifically talking about?
Starting point is 01:13:45 I'm saying that if you want to go at Trump, okay, yeah, you go at him with a nice broad brush like you do with everybody else. And he gives you plenty to work with because he's a pathological liar. And then you just constantly show that he doesn't know how to do what has to be done. And you can do it better. And his whole life is testament to that. Okay. This is my frustration. And I was on another podcast and I made this point. I'm not sure that I got it right. But I think we ought to be, those of us who were never Trump and opposition, everything that could be said about Donald Trump was said. Everything that could be said about Donald Trump was said. Everything that could be written has been written.
Starting point is 01:14:27 Everything that could be exposed, I think has been exposed. And he was still reelected. It's not as if we would have said it differently, it would be different. And I don't think it's, and again, the thing about Donald Trump is there's just so much. I mean, I've been in hours long discussions about Donald Trump, and it's only at the end that somebody will say, and don't forget,
Starting point is 01:14:49 we had a federal judge say that he, his sexual assault on a woman was the equivalent of rape. Yes. If this happened to you or me, there is no job of trust in the world that we could have actual rape and yet It's it's it's what item number? 568 in all the things that we Think about Donald Trump. This is part of the problem is that our standard see I don't know about you but Everywhere else in society. I look around and go, you know Everywhere else in society, I look around and go, you know, we, you know, parents teach their children about sportsmanship. We look for people who are honest and we, when the people we hire as babysitters, the
Starting point is 01:15:34 people that you would, you know, name officers in the U.S. military or coaches of a football team and our standards for politicians are, have become so much lower than in any other walk of life. In any one of these things would be disqualifying. And I guess, you know, I know you're talking about the negativity. I don't know. I can't say much more. Something had to matter more, Charlie.
Starting point is 01:16:01 Because people demand these things in their own lives. People demand these things in their own lives. People demand these things in their own lives. Why, why not here? And I think it's because people don't have the expectation of better when it comes to us. Well, so I was saying, now that's a crisis, because basically, then it means that in our daily lives, in our businesses, we have these standards,
Starting point is 01:16:27 but we no longer have these standards for our democracy. So what does that say about democratic norms? And I have to say that one of the things that I'm gonna get into with my progressive friends at some point is, all the references to defending democracy and everything, I think you take a deep breath and go, you know, the 2024 election, this is what democracy looks like. You have to have other things simply than democracy. If you don't have this expectation,
Starting point is 01:16:54 if you don't have standards, if you don't have character, if you don't have the rule of law, if you don't have the Constitution, you're in a very dangerous situation. But who says we don't have it? See, I was reading from the other day, and look, the reason I love you, Charlie, and I love David from, I love guys who are just better thinkers than I am on a lot of these questions. Because unlike most people these days,
Starting point is 01:17:17 I'm much more fascinated by what I don't know and I'm not sure about, than what I do know and I wanna be sure about, right? I mean, that's part of the issue here is that everybody's looking for confirmation bias. But we're in a constitutional crisis. I think you guys are going way too fast and way too far and playing into how we got here.
Starting point is 01:17:40 We're gonna be in a constitutional crisis. We don't even know what the fuck the guy's gonna do. He's gonna be on a revenge tour. Look at who he's picking. Maybe maybe not I think it's just as likely that he's picking these cantaloupes Because he wants them to be in positions to protect him not to attack other people and if that's what they're doing Then all cash Patel or Hague Seth or whoever it is. All they're doing is Increasing the chances he'll be less effective.
Starting point is 01:18:07 I don't know that he's going to go on a jihad. But again, you know, just earlier in this discussion, though, you said, and I agreed with you, that he's going to go on a revenge tour. He's going to go after the Biden family. And you're absolutely right. He is going to do that. So we do know what he's going to do. No, I don't think it's going to be him.
Starting point is 01:18:23 I think he's going to have to do that. So we do know what he's going to do. No, I don't think it's going to be him. I think he's going to have Congress do it. I don't think it's going to be Cash Patel or any of these guys, because frankly, and this is my same feeling about Trump as a despot, he's not smart enough. He's not strategic enough. He doesn't understand the ambition enough. He's too lazy to want to be what it takes to be that kind of autocrat.
Starting point is 01:18:47 And the people he's putting in positions of power have never achieved any kind of ambition that would be suggestive of their ability to be as diabolical as that. They may want to be, but that doesn't mean you know how to be. That's the genius of McConnell, right? He knows better in 2.0 than he did in 1.0. And he's surrounding himself with people who will not say no to his instincts. I hope you're right about this, by the way. And I do think there's a real possibility that, you know, you surround yourself with incompetent, you know, folks like this. And, you know, that is not the way you establish an autocracy. I do, however, worry about the people in the number two
Starting point is 01:19:25 and the number three positions. And the fact that they do have a blueprint. I think the fact that he came out and named his entire cabinet by now is a sign that they're ready to go. They wanna run. I think that, by the way, there's some real downsides to naming everybody this early
Starting point is 01:19:44 because now we have two months of vetting. Now I think that by the way, there's some real downsides to naming everybody this early, because now we have two months of the kind of vetting. And trust me, Hegseth is not going to look better with the more vetting. But I do think that he's got a plan, and he's got a ruthlessness, and he's got nothing to lose. Plus, he knows that he has, or at least he thinks he has, a Congress that will be a rubber stand for him. I think he may be wrong about the United States Senate.
Starting point is 01:20:09 And I think he may be wrong about the judiciary. You know, one of the things we keep talking about the rule of law and these pardons, it's as if we don't have any confidence that the judiciary can handle any of these issues. You know, the federal judges are watching all of this. The Supreme Court is watching all of this. You know, let's not assume that they have greenlit everything that Donald Trump is thinking of doing right now. But look, he lost his first battle.
Starting point is 01:20:33 He lost his first battle with Senator Scott. I mean, the guy he wanted to be the head of the Senate, he got it wrong. He didn't know how unpopular the guy was. And that was the day he named Matt Gaetz. That's right. It was the first of his youth. And also, you know what else he lost?
Starting point is 01:20:49 He hasn't done the recess appointments yet. We haven't seen the Congress roll over. And also, he's going to push very, very, very hard to abolish the filibuster. And they won't do it. So there's several ways in which the Senate Republicans have already said, hey, we are not potted plants here. I agree, and I'll leave you on one thought, okay?
Starting point is 01:21:10 And again, you said earlier on, you don't care if people don't see why you see things are right, good. Charlie, that has served you well and it will serve you well. Because if there's one thing we should all be confident of, when I look around at what people are using as the basis of their judgment, I'm not impressed. And I'm not looking to join with any of the combinations that I see out there right now. I'm pretty
Starting point is 01:21:35 good being alone. And people can say, well, that's because you've been red-pilled. That's because you're a closet lefty. That's because you hate Trump. All I know is I got both sides. I never used to believe the idea that if both sides are coming after you, it means you're doing your job. I used to think that it means that you're getting the mix wrong on how you're telling a story. I now feel differently about it,
Starting point is 01:21:55 but I will tell you something I know about Mr. Trump, okay? And I know I'm right. Trump does not wanna be feared. Trump wants to be loved. Trump wants to be loved. Trump wants to be adored. Trump hates that the left and so many people hate him. The initiative he cared about most when he won, surprisingly in 2015,
Starting point is 01:22:21 because he did not think he was going to win, he didn't even want to be at the hotel that night, was DJT 100. How do we get to 100% popularity? What got him here cannot get him onto Mount Rushmore. It cannot happen. He knows that. If the man has an opportunity to get the love he wants,
Starting point is 01:22:49 he will not give a shit where it comes from or what it means for everybody else who was with him at the time. So if that means working with the Democrats, if that means throwing his enemies a bone. He'll do it in a nanosecond, just like he met with Joe and Mika, because he is not burdened by the principles that you so desperately seek. And you have to remember that in your analysis of him. He ain't a hardcore gangster. He wants to be loved.
Starting point is 01:23:20 He wants to be loved. He's not gonna get to 100%. So his default setting will be loved. But he knows he's not going to get to 100%. So his default setting will be fear. And the point of a lot of these appointments is fear. And so he would prefer to be loved, but he's going to settle for fear as all autocrats do. All autocrats want to be adored, but if they are not adored, they're satisfied with having you fear them
Starting point is 01:23:45 and crushing them. I think he's so afraid of what happened the first time that he's putting guys in that he believes the only thing they'll get right is protecting him from whatever they're in charge of. And he's not gonna ask anything of them beyond that. But here's the good news. What does he need to be protected from?
Starting point is 01:23:59 Are they protected from? The DOJ investigating him. The Department of Defense saying that he, all of his military plans are no good, Congress coming after him. He doesn't want any of that. He's putting people in positions. These are known as checks and balances. Well, yes, and he believes it was imbalanced.
Starting point is 01:24:22 So he wants people now who can't throw up special councils every five minutes and come after him. That's what he wants. He will not have to worry about that. He will definitely not have to worry about that. That's the point. Well, Charlie, here's what I'm worried about. I need more psychs in my life.
Starting point is 01:24:36 I need it here, I need it on News Nation, I need it wherever I can get it because conversation is the cure. You gotta keep talking about these things. And not talking to one another, I mean, you and I, I don't see you in any way as, I see you as better, but I don't see you as at odds with me in any way.
Starting point is 01:24:55 We both wanna see the country get to a better place and both of us feel that that's very much in doubt right now. So let's keep talking about it. Thank you for being a gift to my audience and all the thought and all the passion that you bring to bear in your work. Thank you so much. I've enjoyed it very much, Chris. We don't see it the same way, but we have the same goal. How does something get better? have the same goal. How does something get better? Who will be better?
Starting point is 01:25:26 What does better even look like? What are your thoughts? Give me the questions, give me the comments, and thank you for subscribing and following, appreciate it. All right, you want it ad free, subscribe at the Substack. It's only five bucks a month. And yes, I think they're gonna kick you off after three months, so you do have to re-up.
Starting point is 01:25:43 I'm not the one kicking you off, okay? I don't know anything about how Substack works. The five bucks goes to pay for putting this all together. It goes to help people get long COVID treatment if they can't afford it with my doctor, Dr. Robin Rose. That's why I'm doing all the COVID stuff on there, the long COVID stuff on there, the longevity stuff, my walk and talks. It's all about helping each other get to a better place.
Starting point is 01:26:08 So what do you say? Let's get after it.

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